1 I thought they hated Iraq.

Sigh.

I guess Democrats want to lose every war.

2
I predicted earlier Obama will pull out of A-Stan by the end of the year.

If Obama is not committed to winning, i.e., wiping out the Islamofascists, what's the point of dragging it on?

3 Is this a good or bad thing for Obama?  How is this any good for Michelle's childred?

4 I liked him better when he stuck to baseball... actually, that's when I first realized that I couldn't stand that pretentious blowhard; that's what I meant.

5 <i>"“[F]orces should be substantially reduced to serve a comprehensively revised policy: America should do only what can be done from offshore, using intelligence, drones, cruise missiles, airstrikes and small, potent special forces units, concentrating on the porous 1,500-mile border with Pakistan, a nation that actually matters,” Will writes in the column, scheduled for publication later this week."</i>

Good.

Screw that bottomless troop and money sump. Bombs and direct-action, not sensitivity training and agriculture programs.

6 *children.  God, I'm as dumb as the state I sign-in as.

7

how about we fight a war like we actually want to win it.

 

8
The thing that pisses me off is Obama will get away with surrendering in Afghansistan. He's tied the hands of the generals just enough to make the effort there futile and yet look like he's still committed to the mission. And that makes Obama a slick cocksucker.

9

 

George who?

10 Jack Tapper:
^{ABC News Exclusive: National Security Adviser Says President Obama Is Having Greater Success Taking Terrorists Out of Commission Than Bush Did}
Releasing terrorists from GITMO is taking terrorists "out of commission".

11 Will is an ass.

FTA: "Will’s prescription – in which he urges Obama to remember Bismarck’s decision to halt German forces short of Paris in 1870 - seems certain to split Republicans."

If the Germans had driven on to Paris, World War I would have ended in 1915, with an armistice, not a surrender (my opinion, of course, but it is certainly as valid as Will's).

At this point - as in Iraq a few years ago - we have no choice but to soldier on to victory (however it is defined) - or surrender our image as the world's sole remaining superpower. This will invite attack from any number of quarters, from AQ to China to Iran to Venezuela. The world is a jungle and weakness invites death.

12 George Will and David Brooks are twin buffoons,
Twiddle Dee and Twiddle Dum.

Having the highly trained ability to think is no guarantee that logic prevails in the absence of guts.

13
Of course, maverick muse!

Obama is not *fighting* the Islamists, therefore he is not *creating* more Islamists.

14 The democrats never pass up an opportunity to declare defeat.

yeah Dingy Harry, I'm pointing at you, you feckless cockholster.

15
George's will is like his chin... weak.

16 What are we doing?  We are taking our eye off the ball!

17 He's not so hot on wearing denim, either.

http://tinyurl.com/dkrbb3

18 Everybody knew that Obama was a dumb ass when it came to foreign affairs. He is proving it beyond a shadow of anybodys doubt.

19

#2: If Obama is not committed to winning, i.e., wiping out the Islamofascists, what's the point of dragging it on? Posted by: Tweet Bonham Carter at August 31, 2009 06:18 PM (oTIms)

 I have to agree. With such a feckless, incompetent leader there's no point in continuing. The O has gutted our intelligence-gathering capability. Without intelligence, how successful can any assymmetrical war be?  Might as well surrender and bury our heads in the sand until Jerusalem or Washington DC is nuked... then attitudes will change.

20
Harmid Karzei just called and said, "Oh how I miss George Bush."

21 Obama will probably follow George's call in some fashion.  After all, one can't make the USA into the USSA if there are overseas distractions.

22 But he is a handsome man.

23 Will is calling for a pullout?  Andi's gonna be pissed - he like teh creampied mangina.

24 You know, if this was an ordinary war of conquest, scorched earth, etc. it would be over in a week.

But, this has morphed in to another idiotic nation building exercise, for which we will be hated anew. An endless suck hole for money and blood, while at the same time putting our boys in the impossible position of Mirandizing the enemy before they kill them, for the love of Pete.

So, screw it.

GW is right.

25 Thanks for that visual image Jazz.  Bastard...

26 Three Star General George Will addresses the soldiers in the field.

27 Georgie was mesmorized by the fine crease in his trousers.  The trouser snake if you will.

28 I'm beginning to agree with Will.   You can't fight a war half-assed, and it's apparent that the administration doesn't have the stomach for it.  Besides, those ungrateful people are too primitive to appreciate democracy.  So screw nation building- let's not waste the lives of American Heroes on people who don't deserve it.  I'm a member of the "rubble don't make trouble" school.  Park our massive resources off the coast and send 'em back to the stone age.  Not that they have far to go. 

29
I'm sure Obama will call the troops home - so they can march us into re-education camps.

30 This will make Obama's poll go up.

31
President Bush should've annhihilated everything outside of Kabul in 2001 and then all we had to was protect that city and make it a nice little democratic-oasis in the middle of nowhere.

But here we are, 8 years later, still fucking around in that hellhole.

32 It seems to me, that whatever George W. stood for, Obama is 180 degrees in reverse. Can anyone name one thing that Obama has not reversed. That is, if he could. Amazing. He must really, really hate George Bush.

33 I like the cut of George Wills jib...and Obama's pants.

34 George Will is a monkey-fighting cop stucker.  He didn't like the war in that other hell-hole, Iraq, either, as I recall.  That cot stuffing money fluffer.

35 Afghanistan has no coast. Hello, can you say land-locked? Can you say pour billions in the hands of the Pakis just for the pleasure of flying over their "nation".

Can you say "graveyard of empires"?

36
Well, mystry, truth be told, Obama is actually continuing many of George Bush's policies...

all of the bad ones, none of the good ones.

37

On January 25, 1871, Wilhelm I overruled Moltke and ordered the field-marshal to consult with Bismarck for all future operations. Bismarck immediately ordered the city to be bombarded with heavy caliber Krupp siege guns. This prompted the city's surrender on January 28, 1871. Paris sustained more damage in the 1870-1871 siege than in any other conflict.

The Prussian Army held a brief victory parade in Paris on February 17, 1871 and Bismarck honored the armistice by sending train-loads of food into Paris and withdrawing Prussian forces to the east of the city, which would be withdrawn as soon as France paid the agreed war indemnity.

38 Not only is nation-building impossible in Afghanistan, but *sniff* they wear jeans there. Quelle horreur!

39 George Will is joining in with the British press to sabotage our forces abroad. Tralala. Obama doesn't have his troops best interests at heart, having let loose a known and captured Afghan terrorist to beset our men and women in Afghanistan. Obama wouldn't even grant open permission to the Navy Seals to free our merchant marines captured by Somali pirates, making up special rules and hesitating, making things more dangerous for the captives as well as for our Navy. Obama doesn't know how to fight for America, only against. His involvement in Pakistan when the US banned travel there has yet to be addressed in public. Suffice it to say, he makes the worst Commander in Chief, a real nightmare.

Jack Tapper on Ret.Gen.Jones:
“This type of radical fundamentalism or terrorism is a threat not only to the United States but to the global community,” Jones said. “The world is coming together on this matter now that President Obama has taken the leadership on it and is approaching it in a slightly different way – actually a radically different way – to discuss things with other rulers to enhance the working relationships with law enforcement agencies – both national and international."

Either it's slightly different or it's radically different--figure it out before you go slobbering.

AS IF the UN would EVER enforce Constitutional Law or honor American sovereignty in self defense vs. global war on terror that Obama just finished denying exists.

From the horse's mouth, THAT makes it awfully convenient to claim better statistics, to no longer recognize jihadists as a threat and dismiss the global war on terror. The world is a safer place because there are no such thing as violent jihadists, no such thing as the global war on terror. Obama has decreed.

Jones is countering the ONE VOICE. Even if to laud The One, is polyphony tolerated in the Oval Office? Meh, they all talk out of both sides of every mouth simultaneously.

40 Stick to baseball, George. Or at least read the military/intel assessments before turning against the troops by going Code Pink on us. *spit*

41

Of course we have to run out of Afghanistan - where else could Al Queda safely hide their Pakistani atomic bombs?

Nothing show's America's will to fight and protect itself better than packing up and fleeing the field just months after the idiot electorate elects a socialist President who hates his country.

42 In ten or fifteen years, there will be an attack on the US, premised on it being  'beatable as evidenced by lack of resolve in Afghanistan.'

Like al Qaeda premised itself on us being 'beatable like in Vietnam.'

Lefties are so sure of themselves that they think they're smarter than the lessons of history.

43

C4

C is for congenital. A permanent condition. The 4 is for the c's that go with that congenital condition.

C**t, Coward, Cocksucker, Commiebastard.

This POS calling for this latest cut and run plan is a C4. He is advocating going right back to the absolute failure of a program that dominated the '90s. We all know how that ended up.

Many of you getting down on your knees and opening up your punk mouths to suck down and swallow that C4 scumbag's issue are also C4.

Some of you, though, may be T3.

T for Temporary. A passing condition that happens to everyone at some time. The 3 for the t's that go with it.

Twit, Twat, Tard.

If you fucked up and let your guard down and stumbled into a T3 condition, pick your ass up off the floor and correct yourself.

C4 carry on as usual. We know you for the enemy loving bowls of snivel in weak sauce that you are. Your time will come. The whirlwind of vengence is brewing.

44 Afghanistan has no coast. Hello, can you say land-locked? Can you say pour billions in the hands of the Pakis just for the pleasure of flying over their "nation".

Of course Afghanistan is land-locked.  Plant our resources in the Gulf.  The Paki government is scared shitless of these animals.  They'll squawk for public domestic consumption, but they won't interfere.

45

This is so disheartening.  Good should defeat evil.  End of story.

Afgans, like the Iranians, are wonderful people.  Persians, by in large. Some of the most inherently intelligent people on earth.  They deserve freedom.  Unfortunately, they are, and have been for centuries, hamstrung by a corrupt religion whose corruption is exagerated by fanatics, many of them foreign Arabs.

46 Clinton and Obama have a lot in common.  Bill, I mean. Obama is doing everything Clinton did in foreign policy. Obama needs Afghanistan just like Bill did. A distraction if his Social Programs run into trouble.  Look There, while he throws a underhand pitch, for his domestic program.

47 Park our massive resources off the coast and send 'em back to the stone age.  Not that they have far to go.

I think that a box of M80s, three bottle rockets and a pack of sparklers would do it.

But on a more serious note, no way in hell will the Jug Eared Jackass continue hitting the terrorists once the ground troops are gone. The excuse will be "we don't have troops in the area to protect, so no missiles/bombs are necessary".

48 Let me ask you this:

Would you all want to be in Afghanistan with BHO as CIC?

I mean, let's be real here.

Because, you just know this guy is going to screw the pooch 16 times a day before he gets it right. Look at what he has already done, (see my earlier post about Mirandizing).

For crying out loud, the son of a bitch will not even refer to it as a WAR! He even has to change the very name to some PC nonsense.

It will be "Blackhawk Down" on steroids.

49 Afgans, like the Iranians, are wonderful people.  Persians, by in large. Some of the most inherently intelligent people on earth.  They deserve freedom.

And it goes without saying that Persian women are gorgeous

50 So, George wants to go back to the Bill Clinton "toss a missle or two at them if they kill US troops or citizens" policy.  Sigh.

51 re 43
odd bit of trivia.... if you lick C4 it will give you a blazing headache. Dont ask me how i know. But this is very reliable information. 

52

49 -  There is that!

53

I actually understand what Mr. Will is saying and where he is coming from.

But I think we can win, and I would hate to see us just leave. The Afghanis--and in particular, the Pashtuns--are the key. They are the center of effort--to make them fight for themselves. I do not know how to do so, since I would need about six months of dedicated study to figure out how to do it--but I feel in my bones it can be done. There is nothing magical about insurgencies--it is the method of the weak for a reason. They rely on outlasting the enemy for victory. If they cannot outlast they lose. And they cannot outlast if they cannot hide amidst the populace.

We also may need a governmental structure for the Afghanis a little more creative than the traditional centralized post-1648 version. I would also need a little more time to study that. But it does seem doable. The key is to tailor the government to the characters of the various peoples of Afghanistan, not try to tailor the people to the government.

If we can win in Afghanistan we can win anywhere. Let us not fall away from this challenge.

 

54 I will be the first to admit that I have never worn a uniform, nor fired a weapon in anger. I have nothing but respect for those who have served.

But, I have a nephew there right now.

Shit is NOT going according to the script, OK?

Enough said.

55 So, George wants to go back to the Bill Clinton "toss a missle or two at them if they kill US troops or citizens" policy.  Sigh.

No, toss thousands at them.  Plus, the Predator technology now is so much more advanced.  Have the boys in the midwest hunt 'em like dogs (no offense to man's best friend)

56 The key to Victory is having the will to achieve it.

57 "Will is calling for a pullout?  Andi's gonna be pissed - he like teh creampied mangina."

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!  Snooooooort! Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!

58 If you've been reading Michael Yon's dispatches from Afghanistan, it seems clear that at best it will be a decade(s)-long slog. The current strategy is just barely maintaining the status quo and that's with highly motivated American and British troops.

Fundamentally Afghanistan is a basket case full of poverty, banditry, and other misc dis-functionality. And if we're not willing to make a heavy commitment of troops, time, and money there, then Will might be correct that the next best option is to pull back and just blast Taliban concentration with UAVs and bombers.

59 I believe the solution to this problem is more funding for the arts!

60 Okinawa II: Democractic Boogaloo.

61 We need to recall all our troops to protect the American people from Obama and his Communist Administration.

62

George Will spends too much time inside the Beltway.

Watch for the Dems to cut off funding for yet another "unpopular war".  The MSM is right, it's Vietnam all over again, the difference this time is that there won't be any boat people.

63 hey raw you know me from another place, similar nic.
I think there is some severe interference on the part of the people sending out supplies and making the rules of the game. If we loosed the dogs of war to do what they do we could win. But we need to be aware that we gotta WANT to win bad enough to just go out and do it.

Oh and pay for it.
 And pay for the equipment they need to get it done.

Its very hard to do anything underfunded, undersupported, underpaid, and with one hand tied behind your back.... and with threats of prosecution for doin what you thought was your job hanging over your head.

64 "America should do only what can be done from offshore"

You don't "win" unless you hold ground.  I'd have thought someone as "intelligent" as Will would know that.  Or is he trying to push Obama into doing something stupid?  After all, figure the lib confusion.  George Will wants us to get out?  That means we gotta stay!

65

Mixed thoughts on this one.  I don't like to declare defeat but Phobama will for us. Meantime the lives of our men are once again squandered.  Would it have been better to save  40 or 50 thousand lives by exiting Vietnam in 64, since the Dems and Libs wanted us to lose it anyway? With the benefit of hindsight I would have to say yes.  This is another "We are so Fk'd." moment. 

I always liked Will.  Now? Not so much.  I feel sorry for the troops and CIA operatives that are getting the carpet yanked out from under them by our government again. 

If a mother or wife weeps for a fallen soldier and asks, "Why?'  I don't have an answer.  If a young man talks to me about joining the military, would I recommend he join?  Not under a Democrat administration.

66 George Will is an asshole.  That said, we do need to get out.  I have said it before.  These people are fucking savages and the idea that we can "nation build" is absurd unless you want to spend around a hundred years trying to bring them up to speed.  The entire Afghan war should have been a "punitive expedition".  That is, we should have gone in and killed every Jihadi we could find and then get out.  Shouldn't have taken more than six months.  We still would have had the right to go back in anytime we wanted to address evolving threats.  Orbit a B-52 24/7 to lob JDAMS when needed, targeted by Special Forces.  Seriously, how many more years do we want to spend there?  To what end?  Obama was a moron to back this theater and he only did it to make himself look tough while he whined about Iraq.  Iraq, by the way, is where our real strategic interests lie.  A-stan?  Not so much.

67 how can i make a claim for George Washington's sword and the star spangle banner flag at the Smithsonian before dc is nuked off the face of the earth?

68

#59

Oh, I'm speechless. Brilliant.

#58

Fundamentally Afghanistan is a basket case full of poverty, banditry, and other misc dis-functionality.

Yes. I don't care if the Afghans/Pashtuns love us. I don't care if the various regions really follow the central government or not. I'm not trying to win a single heart and mind for a greater cause other than this--I just want them to apply some of those time-honed banditry skills and kill Taliban so that they can live in peace amidst themselves in their local region. That would be more than enough, and I cannot see why this kind of deal isn't doable--you get rid of someone we don't like, we leave and give you an autonomous region (if autonomy is what it takes--think Swiss Confederation). I find it impossible to believe that in an honor culture that there is not a lever that can be moved to our advantage.

 

69 shibumi,

George Will is not a Democrat. Sigh.

70

Doesn't he wear a bow-tie and spend a lot of time on NPR?

'nuff said.

71 But, but, but --- This was the war worth fighting, according to the Joker himself.

72
George Will is our version of Eleanor Clift minus the shrill voice.

73 11 Will is an ass.

FTA: "Will’s prescription – in which he urges Obama to remember Bismarck’s decision to halt German forces short of Paris in 1870 - seems certain to split Republicans."

If the Germans had driven on to Paris, World War I would have ended in 1915, with an armistice, not a surrender (my opinion, of course, but it is certainly as valid as Will's).
Posted by: Josef K. at August 31, 2009 06:23 PM (7+pP9)   WWI wasn't in 1870, though you are correct Will is an ass and in this regard doesn't seem to know much about the Franco-Prussian War.  I have to say, I can't really figure out what Will's point is.  For one the FPW was a completely different war before and after Bismarck wanted to end it.  For another, the Prussian-German forces drove on Paris, fought and won a counter-insurgency conflict, and came away with everything they (well not Bismarck) wanted.  So, in this example there is something wrong with driving forward and fighting to victory?   The only arguable mistake of ignoring Bismarck's wishes was taking Alsace-Lorraine from France, but there were very good reasons for doing so.  Bismarck ably adjusted afterwards anyways by permanently marking revanchist France in the enemy column and making sure she was alone there.  I don't quite see how this applies to our situation in Afghanistan.  Even if he is saying we should take what we can get like Bismarck wanted after Sedan, what exactly are we getting besides an Afghanistan surely turning revanchist Taliban?   At any rate, ignoring Bismarck still brought 43 years of peace, far more than we'll likely see for a long time to come either way.

74 In the Sunday Times or Telegraph, two v. different stories:

One was about how, in the Swat valley in Pakistan, Taliban accomplices and collaborators have been turning up dead, anonymously executed (attributed to the security forces). Taliban terror tactics used against the Taliban. One great quote from a local, identifying the Taliban as the vicious misogynistic scum that they are. I'm not sure if I'm losing my moral bearing, but this cheered me up, with some reservations.

The other story was about Gordon Brown preparing to pull troops out of Afghanistan.

Another story was about how the commander of the first British casaulty in Afghanistan has successfully cleared his name after he was smeared by the Labour Defense Minister as having failed his men due to his alleged incompetence, when in fact it was shown that it was the Labour government's unwillingness to properly equip the troops that led to his death (and others').

Brown & Labour are Complete Utter Nauseating Traitorous Shits!

(sorry not to have details & links, slow expensive net connection at present and papers out of reach)

75

#61  We need to recall all our troops to protect the American people from Obama and his Communist Administration.

And to throw him out in his pajamas Honduran style.

76 Let me continue cause I'm liquored up.  The Taliban didn't plan 911, Al Qadea did.  The Taliban merely let them operate in the country, a decision I'm sure they now regret.  These backwards, repugnant, intolerant, islamofacist thugs aren't really our business anymore.

77

I wonder if General George Will is going to tell us in his much awaited column how he plans on Small and Potent special forces units surviving in an ememy held country against overwhelming numbers of taliban and Al Queda. I would also like to know how he is going to re-supply, evacuate wounded and reinforce when necessary. If General Will would also be so kind he could tell us how these small forces are going to get helecopter gunship and air support when they need it. Then maybe he could let us know where these drones he speaks of are going to be based and who is going to maintain them.

What a dumbass. If he and Obama want to pull out they need to pull out and be done with it.

78 Hey, #63, I appreciate what you are saying. Presently the ROE are FUBAR.

Sounds very much like 1971-'72 Vietnam to me.

Except worse, if that is possible.

79

Sounds very much like 1971-'72 Vietnam to me.

Except worse, if that is possible.

I was in Quang Tri Province in 70 and 71, we seemed to think we were winning but what did we know.

80 Honestly, with the incompetent Obama in charge, the general lack of will to win the war within the American public, and the fact that the Afghans don't seem to be up to the task, it isn't fair to leave our guys there.  They are the finest fighting force in the universe but they are not miracle workers. 

A tribal wasteland with no economy does not a stable nation make.  We gave it a helluva run and we did disrupt Al Qaeda and we should continue to do that.  The fact is that the rationale for the war has collapsed.  We wanted to disrupt Al Qaeda and deny them a place to train, we did that.  Now they are in Pakistan and honestly they could train anywhere, including in the US.  Our pussified allies have bailed, and we can't afford to be there for 10 more years trying to build their nation for them.

We have massive domestic problems so the key right now is to address them and get Obama and the Democrats out. It will be harder to that if we keep blindly going on with Afghanistan.  The amount of effort it would take to succeed frankly isn't worth it anymore.  Our men deserve a better fate.

81 I always liked Will.  Now? Not so much.

So you dislike him because he's right that this admin is not going to provide enough men and materiel to win?

82 I still like George Will. If you ever get a chance to see him speak publicly, off the record, you should take it. He does present an entirely different persona that on the Sunday morning talk shows.

83

Let me guess: Someone always thought that going into Afghanistan was a mistake. "As I have always said" and "let me be clear," right?

(* yawn *)

"Obviously."

84 Very skeptical about success in Afghanistan, not due to lack of efforts by US troops and other allies, but by the fact that it is not really a country but a collection of tribes. Country is not too far removed from warlord government.
Much of the ruling class will do nothing that ask for more aid..knowing they will get rich in the process.
The Pashtun's on both sides of the border co-exist with the Taliban, like it or not.
Next door, Pakistan is an ungovernable mess who leadership is obsessed with India, corrupt and unless.
As long as Pakistan is unstable, Afganistan will remain as well and Pakis like that.

85

We will pull out.  And soon.  First, with deflating poll numbers and a couple of major legislative initiatives failing (health care and Tax and Trade) this administration needs a distraction. Second,. its too big a target.  Afghansistan is the absolute last thing this Administration can, with any credibility, blame on Bush. Gibbs today, when pressed about the increases in death in Afghanistan,  said that Afghanistan had been ignored for most of the last decade.  Third, it will fit into his blame America first mentality and allow "The One" to become more comfortable with his role are President.  He can go out and say 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan was all caused by the root source of America being too proud, too demanding, too unwilling to listen. Withdrawl fits into a narrative he is comfortable with, where as being a War Time Commander in Chief is completely out of his realm.  Its going t happen, the real issue is A) when and B) under what pretense - some phony claimed guise of victory or just a flat out sop to the uber-liberal wing of his party.

86 Like al Qaeda premised itself on us being 'beatable like in Vietnam.'

The Soviets beat AQ by a couple of decades. When Carter proved weak they invaded Afghanistan.

Iranian embassy hostages taken: 04NOV79
Soviet invasion of Afghanistan: 27DEC79

Within two months the Soviets realized they could roll Carter and take Afghanistan with no immediate repercussions of consequence. Obviously, they were planning long before 27DEC79, but were just waiting for the right world event that would prove to them it was "safe" to go.

87 Will: "America should do only what can be done from offshore, using intelligence, drones, cruise missiles, airstrikes and small, potent special forces units, concentrating on the porous 1,500-mile border with Pakistan..."

Might I suggest staging from Okinawa?

88 Afghansistan is the absolute last thing this Administration can, with any credibility, blame on Bush.

They can't do that with any credibility, since they all went along. 

89 #88  They can't do that with any credibility, since they all went along. 

Yeah, but didn't most of them sign on to Iraq too only later to say that they were "misled"? 

90

Afghansistan is the absolute last thing this Administration can, with any credibility, blame on Bush.

They can't do that with any credibility, since they all went along. 

"The One" will remind you he was not in the Senate when we went to war in Afghanistan and that he voted for funding but had serious questions about the policy being pursued. He will refer you to some page of the Congressional Record where he made specific comments about our policy, comments that were inserted into the record when he recieved unanimous consent to revise and extend his comments (you know, the words they slap in to make the Senator/Congresscritter should like he/she has a functionaly IQ).  Ahhh, the advantage of spending your entire life voting "Present".

91 Mr. Will is correct.  I am not willing to let this Administration force Afghanistan into "quagmire" status to make a political point.  Our soldiers will pay too heavy a price for not trying to win.  Win it or get the hell out.

Obama needs to pay the price for this fecklessness, and jingoistic bullshit won't make that happen. He loses Afghanistan, he needs to have it hung around his neck like a millstone.

92 88 Not only went along but campaigned on it as the "right" war.The ball we took our eyes off of if I recall correctly.....

93

Yeah, but didn't most of them sign on to Iraq too only later to say that they were "misled"? 

Exactly.  Only this time, instead of "Bush Lied, People Died" it will be Bush was incompetent, people died.  See, if things go well, the Democrats will jump right and take credit.  If not, they will blame Republicans.  Skeptical, how about this example.  Remember how every Democrat who, right up until the damn Berlin wall came down, was advocating a nuclear freeze and SALT III and had nothing but contempt for Reagen's policices.  Then, all of sudden, the wall came down and all of them jumped up and down and pointed out that it took a bipartisan effort to win the Cold War.  It is never their fault, their philoshpy is never wrong.  You just screwed it up for them. Or you lied.  Or something.

94

So you dislike him because he's right that this admin is not going to provide enough men and materiel to win?

There have been issues I have agreed with and some I didn't. an earlier posters comment refering to his pomposity hit home.  The original article mentioned earlier seems to say we can't take care of the Afgan problem not we won't take care of it due to a lack of political will.  I should, however, wait for Will's full article befor passing judgement.  Plus, I might be in a pissy humor.  Check back after a couple Scotch's.

95 Obama will bail.  The bit about "Afghanistan has been ignored" in the news conference today is no accident.  The narrative will be that Bush blew it by distracting us with Iraq and it is too late to save the effort now.  The libs in the MSM will happily play along, and the American people have other things to worry about, like having a job.  Either way it is over. 

I respect guys like Yon, he says it would be a long, hard slog and he is right.  The war is winnable but the nation and this government is not willing to pay the price.  If we are not there to win, we should not have our guys in harms way and having to read the prisoners their Miranda rights.  Shrum admitted a while back that the libs hate the Afghan conflict too, they pretended to support it for political reasons so they could claim Bush took his eye off the ball when we invaded Iraq.  I would not want my son going there knowing the commander in chief is a lying piece of garbage who is playing politics with the war.  I therefore can't ask anyone else's son to die there either.

96 1. George Will threw that coming-out party for Barry Rainbowshanks in Georgetown, attended by "conservatives."

2. George Will provides bipartisan fig leaf for surrender in Afghanistan.

3. George Will is a beltway tool, when he isn't busy rubbing the inner thighs of David Brooks.

97 If he and Obama want to pull out they need to pull out and be done with it.
I rather think Zero and Will are doing the opposite of pulling out right now.

IYKWIMAITYD.

98 MSM used IRAQ losses as a club against Bush. they will not do that against "the messiah". Moonbats will continue to whine that all war is bad..so nothing new. BHO and administartion have plenty to time to make as many mistakes as possible...and if they make the situtation worse...MSM will not report it.
BHO will find a way to announce that we will leave Afghanistan before the mid term elections, with pull out to happen at some point in the future. It will be a "Peace with Honor" deal, BHO will claim that we gave the Afghani's tools for self government, fairness..ect and it will be up to them to manage their country. He will say that his team fixed Bush's mistakes and hope the MSM stops publishing any negative stories about the region.
IRAQ will it's location, oil and people is much more important, this is why I fear BHO will give up the past gains and enable IRAN to expand influence and cause problems.

99 "it seems clear that at best it will be a decade(s)-long slog."

No democracy can keep a war, even a low level one, going that long.  Not even the US.

The only reason the current level of support exists after 8 years is that the death rate has been low.  As that changes, support will erode further.  Not just among liberals, Democrats or Beltway types either.  

Will is only half right.  We need to reduce our footprint back to something like the 2001 model.  Special forces, drones and air power backing warlord forces.  And get rid of a lot of the useless soldiers from Germany and the like.

100 Hah-hah-hah! Les fairies!

101

I'm Catholic but don't make it to church much.  Still I like my church to hold to principles.  Did you catch Ted Kennedy's Grandson being used in a Catholic Funeral Mass to pimp Government healthcare? http://tinyurl.com/kpmg8x.

Where's all that separation of church and state the Dems love so much?

 

102 So for all you gung-ho, nuke-em, John Waynes, a question. How do we win the damn thing?

103

There are two reasons I would be for leaving altogether.

1. Obama isn't going to win this thing

2. We can't afford it anymore, we are looking at somewhere between $9 and $14 Trillion in deficits over the next 10 years

The problem is I don't know what happens if we leave, do we get attacked again, do we have to go back? I don't have a clue about that.

104 2. George Will provides bipartisan fig leaf for surrender in Afghanistan.

Yeah, sure.  Lets get more soldiers ground up thanks to the Admin turning a war into a political tarball.  Hey! That's why I want us to have such an awesome military, so we can waste it, our treasure, and their blood.  (yeah, that's sarcasm). Telling the President to fight to win or get the hell out is as far from "fig leaf" status as William Jefferson's bag-o-cash in the freezer is from "lettuce."

I disagree with Mr. Will often, and am also often greatly disappointed by him, but he is pointing out the obvious here.  If someone wants to show how we can win while not even trying, in a region famous for embarrassing major powers and their military, go right ahead.  I'm sure the Pentagon will subscribe to their newsletter.

105 The problem with Afghanistan comes down to one word. Politics. Let me put it this way, if the US and NATO troops were given the green light to defeat the combined Taliban/Al-Qaeda  by any means necessary to achieve that victory while their respective governments are leaning hard on Pakistan with the help of India to deal with the Taiban and Al-Qaeda bases in the Swat valley and their supporters  in Pakistan . it would have also helped if the Europeans especially the UK and Scandinavia governments were not infected with PC and hath dealt the militant islamic problem in these countries very severely and permanently cutting off the financial and manpower lifeline to the Taliban and Al- Qaeda. The war in Afghanistan should have been over long ago if the West were not afraid to deal Islamic Jihad a killing blow from which they cannot recover.

Here is the thing, if the West withdrew in Afghanistan and the Taliban returns to power and the emboldened Islamic terrorists began attacking American and European Cities as well as Indian cities with WMDs from Afghanistan and Pakistan. The resulting counterblow would be this, Afghanistan and Pakistan will cease to exist and Europe's muslim population will see a sudden drop in population numbers as they will be hunted and exterminated and the Arab countries will find out that their money and influence had died along with the deaths of their European supporters. Survival cancels out leftist programming awfully fast.

106 The narrative will be that Bush blew it by distracting us with Iraq and it is too late to save the effort now.

That won't fly.  Iraq was WAY more fucked than Afghanistan ever could be and it was saved.  Afghanistan is a very "small" operation compared to Iraq. More difficult in many ways, but its smallness and terrain limit how bad it can ever become in absolute terms.

If this administration backs away from Afghanistan, I would bet $1,000 that Chavez sees that as a green light for his aspirations on Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao.

If the USA is unwilling to persist in someplace like Afghanistan, where a win (define that however you want) is in our best interests because it tamps down a terrorist hot spot, then we'd certainly be unwilling to resist any aggression against the ABC islands where none of them have particular strategic value to the USA.

I have no doubt at all Obama would tell the Dutch they're on their own if it came to entering a shooting war with Venezuela.  Possession vis-a-vis Venezuela or the Dutch is of little consequence for US foreign policy.

107 #102, the same way we always do.

Declare victory and start packing.

108 Iraq was WAY more fucked than Afghanistan ever could be and it was saved
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 31, 2009 08:18 PM (65kCE)

I have to disagree. There were certainly large challenges in Iraq but Iraq has a lot more to build on. There are resources in Iraq that just don't exist in Afghanistan and I'm not talking about oil (though there's that too).

Iraq was what passed for a reasonable country and society in that part of the world. Once you removed Saddam, you have a chance for that flourish.

Afghanistan is not and never has been a country or society as we use the terms.  I don't see how we can build that.

109 Shit.

108 was me.

110 99, good point. I doubt that we can "win" A-stan because of it's porous border with P-stan and that unless Pstan removes safe haven for the Taliban the population of Astan will never be safe. Unlike IRAQ that had a functioning army and police force, I doubt Astan has ever had them and Soviets destroyed what did exist. The people of Astan must be willing to fight and die to protect their country, since many have a tribe and not a country-that is the problem. Using SpecialOps and drones is the best way-let them do the heavy lifting. US should also limit aid
and tie it to results.
I despise Democrats, they will leave Astan, because they don't like any war. They have never taken Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism seriously and never proposed a credible alternative to the policy developed by Bush et al.

111

What the fuck. Let the taliban run us out of Afghanistan. They need a place to organize and regroup to get ready to kill a few thousand more moonbats.

Like I said, the war on terror was over Jan. 20. Now the yellow idiots are in place to allow the terror to make war on us. And I assure you, they (unlike the gutless pussies in charge of this country) mean BUSINESS.

112 106 - I agree it won't fly with US, but it might with American public, who at this point would probably welcome news of us leaving Afghanistan.  Iraq is doing much better but attacks have increased since the Iraqi's have taken over in some areas.  If we draw WAY down, only then will we know if the peace will hold.  And face it, the American public IS UNWILLING to stick it out in Afghanistan.  If anything the fact that we haven't been attacked lulls them back into complacency and the enormous debt we have also hurts the effort. Everyone knows that we are spending 100's of billions to stay in Afghanistan.  If other Western nations and/or NATO were sharing more of the load, I would say keep going.  That ain't happening.

113 This isn't the first time Will's math has been questioned.

114 Also, Afghanistan has no institutional foundation or economy.  Iraq had schools, universities, hospitals, etc. and a source of income (oil).  It is overall a more secular nation as well.  It had a better foundation to build on, but it could still fail as Iran will meddle and Obama will do nothing.

115 I have no problem with leaving Afghanistan as fucked as it has been for the past 1000 years as long as you can guarantee me we won't be back there in 5-10 years repeating the exercise.

Are you willing to make that guarantee?

116 k-bob
       Timur or Tamerlane made mince meat out of the Afghani tribes and the Rajputs had no such problem  prior to that. To win in Afghanistan means the West have to be ruthless. Cut off the Taliban's food and water supply and deny their Pakistani allies and their Western supporters the means to supply them . Make the the rugged mountains of Afghanistan to become a deadly enemy for the Taliban and their Al-Qaeda allies .

k-bob, the Soviets lost Afghanistan not only because the Americans supplied the mujihadeen Stinger missiles, it's also because their political leadership made the mistake of not being ruthless enough to infiltrate and the Mujihadeen training camps in Pakistan. But the biggest thing was this, the vast majority in the Soviet army at Afghanistan were all poorly trained conscripts with the exception of it's officers and their Spetnaz.  They repeated that same mistake in Chechnya and they had gotten their collective asses handed down to them with devastating results to the Russian military psyche.

117 From what I've read of it, the Spetznaz were very effective in Afghanistan where they were used.  30 years ago, Soldier of Fortune had some very good coverage of what was going on during the Soviet period running stories about Soviet weapons in use, the "yellow rain" supposed bio-weapons incidents, the green painted "butterfly" toe-popper mines that were helo dispersed, etc.

118 Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 31, 2009 08:41 PM (65kCE)

Of course no one can or will do that.

The question I would ask you is, how long are you willing to go on at this level of military commitment?

And 'for as long as it takes' really isn't an answer unless you can tell me what 'it' (victory) is because it's simply not tenable to continue on this course at this level ad infinitum.

119 Astan is now a side show, the cancer is in Pstan.
US and past adminstrations have been "played" for too long by the Paki lobbyists in DC and diplomats at the State Department. The reason to support Pakistan ended with the cold war and dissolution of the USSR.
The ISI is riddled with Islamic fundamentalists who support terrorism and the Taliban. The country has been lukewarm at best in trying to limit their power.
Things are going better because of US pressure, but don't expect improvement to continue...nothing ever does in Pakistan.
Bush was right to give India special treatment, the country has plenty of issues..but is a functioning democracy that has the religious tolerance it's neighbor lacks and has no illusions about terrorism.
US should make it very clear that we will give India all the support they need and instill as much fear as possible into Rstan- it's the only thing they understand.

120 If we do withdraw from Afghanistan -- and given that Obama has no intention of winning, that might be the best thing to do -- who takes over? The Taliban, yes, but who will their patron be?

121 how long are you willing to go on at this level of military commitment?

I'm willing to do it forever. 

Its no different than keeping 30,000 troops on the Korean DMZ to keep a problem in contained.  We've been sitting on that problem for over 50 years now and nobody is bitching about the expense or how we gotta get out right away.

Some wars you don't have to win.  All that's really required is to NOT lose.

122 Taliban, yes, but who will their patron be?
Posted by: joncelli at August 31, 2009 08:51 PM (vPMF5)

Same as before most likely....the ISI, the crazier members of the Saudi and other Gulf royal families and what they can self finance through the drug trade.

Our only concern should be whether or not AQ rebuilds its training infrastructure there.

123 <i>
Its no different than keeping 30,000 troops on the Korean DMZ to keep a problem in contained.  We've been sitting on that problem for over 50 years now and nobody is bitching about the expense or how we gotta get out right away.</i>

The problem with this analogy is that US troops are operating in a (mostly) friendly host country in S. Korea. That isn't the case in A-stan and may never be.

124 One would hope that by now the message is loud and clear; if you the attack the USA, many unpleasant things will follow, and not all of them will be fair or even reasonable.

But, probably not.

125 I'm willing to do it forever. 

Its no different than keeping 30,000 troops on the Korean DMZ to keep a problem in contained.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 31, 2009 08:53 PM (65kCE)

Two thoughts...

You and the 'forever' group is a shrinking minority. At some point, regardless of the geopolitical realities, public support will end. It's amazing (and a credit to Bush) it lasted this long.

Second, I think the Korean analogy is completely bogus. We haven't been taking casualties on a near daily basis there for 50+ years. Those situations are completely different.

126 Wow,

George Will summons all of his military experience to tell us this?

George Will is a tool who hasn't put his bow-tie in harms way in his entire life. He's worse than an arm chair quarterback, he's a pundit-general!

Fuck you George! I work for Gen McChrystal and he is a better man than you can ever hope to be. Give us what we need and we will win this thing.

127
Its no different than keeping 30,000 troops on the Korean DMZ to keep a problem in contained.  We've been sitting on that problem for over 50 years now and nobody is bitching about the expense or how we gotta get out right away.

Some wars you don't have to win.  All that's really required is to NOT lose.

Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 31, 2009 08:53 PM (65kCE)

One tiny difference: jihadis don't constantly try to blow your ass up in Korea.  If you can't subdue them using Saddam-like tactics, no way Korea example is even distantly relevant.

That was Bush's mistake. The thought that freedom and democracy is the same to the entire human race regardless of culture (the founding fathers said quite the opposite). That was his version of Unicorns. And that bullshit has already cost us dearly. So stop bullshiting. We have a fight against terror, and while it can't be done remotely by drones, it also can't be done using troops as sitting ducks. Eather you are on offensive or you're dead.

128 many unpleasant things will follow, and not all of them will be fair or even reasonable.
Posted by: rawmuse at August 31, 2009 08:57 PM (NnkKB)

Heh. When I was in college, long, long before 9/11, my idea for dealing with terrorism was to randomly pick a country over there and tell them if anything happened to us or our people, they would pay. We understand they might not be responsible but since we don't really know the neighborhood as well as they do, it would be their responsibility to police it.

This country, whichever it was, would suddenly be very invested in the security of the United States.

129 Will,

I'm aware of those historical points.  Turkish empire didn't erupt overnight. Couldn't have pulled em up so fast, though!

I'm sure you'll agree that "actually trying to win" played a significant role in any previous successes.  I ain't seein' no such "try" out of Washington these days.

130 Give us what we need and we will win this thing.
Posted by: phat at August 31, 2009 08:59 PM (pcdb+)

Honest to God question...what does 'win' mean?

I got in Iraq it meant a reasonably decent and representative government that would give the people a chance to do the best they could given the country's resources.

What's it mean in Afghanistan?

131 The problem with this analogy is that US troops are operating in a (mostly) friendly host country in S. Korea.

So?  All that means is you take a few more casualties.  You can take a trickle now, or a lot later on repeating the exercise when Afghanistan becomes another terrorist playground.  I fail to see the difference in the long run. 

If we show weakness in Afghanistan, the blood payment for that weakness will be distributed globally and in less predictable and containable manners.

There will be a blood price no matter which choice is taken.  If given a choice between unpredictable global randomness or local containment, I'll take the local containment option every time because the logistics of handling it are always easier.

132 I am unable to log onto Hotair.Maybe I said something mean about Dead Swimmer.

133 I only hope, if we pull out, Osama calls a press conference on some rocky outcrop and we take him out with a predator.

134 Why now , George?

Don't you remember the Surge?

Victory is not impossible.

Perhaps your "Dinner with Bardre" was a poor choice.

Or maybe not, after all, the wine was perfect.

135 As a practical political matter prior to a pullout, Obama needs to declare OBL to be KIA or dead via whatever means and fake up whatever evidence is necessary to make the claim fly. 

136 #86, Purple Avenger, don't forget that the Russians only wanted Afghanistan as a stepping stone to taking Pakistan. A warm-water ice-free ocean port with no obstructions to the ocean (the Baltic, the Dardanelles) has been a crippling obsession of Russian foreign policy going back to Peter the Great.

137

Yeah, sure.

Lets all allow what the media and the ivory tower elite tell us be our primary frame to hang our hearts on over this "unwinnable" Afghanistan situation.

Now, for those of you crawling along on your knees and giving yourselves over to the weak, craven and pernicious, how often have these media talking heads and ivory tower elites been correct in living memory?

How does giving in to this latest wave of defeatism and despair make a person worthy of respect or tolerance, here in comments, or elsewhere?

We know damn well from a full decade of experience that what was done in the '90s has zero effectiveness PERIOD. So, lets go right back to that? That is about as clear a definition of incompetence as can be had.

We could, on the other hand, focus on actual solvable problems. Such as the bullshit ISAF 6 month rotating vanity commands, each contributing nation setting up its own fiefdom to play its own game its own way with little or no coordination with the rest of the program. Sorting out who are actual valid and integrity driven allies and who are simply parasites that serve no real purpose but to add additional layers to problems and suck up logistics with no return benefit and who's governments are much more aligned with playing the passive aggressive shitheads in causing us as much grief as possible while doing everything they can to support the enemy short of actually openly declaring their support for that enemy.

An enemy loving 5th column that infests our domestic homefront. Idiots, fools and pernicious propagandists for the cause of the enemy that infest our media, etc and so on.

There is and has been, a concerted, organized and insanely effective effort to castrate the US as a nation and to put an end to our ability to fight any war of any type for any reason anywhere at any time over the last few decades. Play into it, or be played by it, you're part of it, whether you intend to be or not. Not all useful idiots are aware of their perfidy, but they all belong against the same wall.

And do NOT forget this...

Every single excuse the shit eaters are vomiting up here has been made ad nauseum over Iraq, and wars during and since Vietnam, and they were liars then and they are liars now. Only fools, idiots and the enemy lovers continue to follow them.

138 Didn't Obama promise us Osama's head on a cheese plate?

Purple A, I understand your point, but even in Korea, the country (meaning us, the supposed superpower) wasn't so friggin' wimpy about how we handled things. I'm not commenting on the strategies at the time, I just mean that establishing a DMZ then wasn't such a politically charged idea as it would be now.  (And yes , I'm aware of some of the political atmospherics from those days, too.)

None of the Exceedingly few Dems are talking about success in any form in Afghanistan.  Hell, if any of 'em sounded even the least bit like you on this thing (meaning we don't have to win to succeed), I'd be shocked.  They seem to think we can succeed by our winning smiles and our willingness to bend over.

139

Well, total war worked against Germany and Japan, but that's mostly because those peoples actually had countries to lose. Afghanistan is a desert/mountain shithole populated by nomads. They have nothing to destroy, no real country to lose.

140 Just for the record, Grimmy, what fucking "excuses" are you talking about that have been made "here".  By "here", I assume those posting at AoSHQ.  If you mean "here" as "somewhere in the landof the free", then fine. But if you mean "here" you need to provide quotes.

141 132 I am unable to log onto Hotair.Maybe I said something mean about Dead Swimmer.
Posted by: Tattoo DePlane at August 31, 2009 09:07 PM (rrxDo)

That happened to me a few months ago -- mysteriously unable to log in.  But, I had been visiting the site less and less (especially the comments section) so I shrugged it off. 

Anyway, I checked a few weeks ago and I was suddenly able to log in again.  I would try restarting your computer.  If that doesn't work, try restarting your "modem."

142 Just a reminder that we had 34,000 KIA in Korea. The longer we stay the worst shape the taliban will become and not the other way around.

143 to put an end to our ability to fight any war of any type for any reason anywhere at any time over the last few decades.

Everyone want their wars quick and clean -- watchable on TV in one week long marathon sitting.

Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way.

144

George Will is a beltway tool, when he isn't busy rubbing the inner thighs of David Brooks.

George Will has done more for the conservative cause in the last 25 years than most of you will do in a lifetime.

I don't agree with him here, but he's not saying it because he's a fucking tool. He may remember way back in the old days -- the 1990s -- when conservatives were against nation-building.

If you've read his columns recently, you'd see he's doing a pretty damn good job hitting most of the points taken on this blog -- and his does it with original reporting and few if any clichés. Stop the school girl game of talking shit about everyone who strays from the Cool Clique on any single issue. ("Do you like her? I never liked her! As if!")

We have more than enough Hannitys on our side who will mindlessly cheerlead and pander. Sure, Will is a geek. One who can slit Obama three ways from Sunday, rhetorically, with pursed lips and bow tie. Read his shit and learn.

I disagree with him on this point. But he’s not a tool.

 

 

145 To figure out the sheep in Afganistan you have to understand one thing.  They will follow the ones they fear most.  If they see one guy with a pieces of his ears and nose cut off they won't vote, effective tool for the Taliban.  Dump a hundred dead Taliban and supporters on the doorstep of the guy sans ears and nose and he will lead a parade down the street to vote.  Fear and respect are close cousins, differing only in honor.

146 The country doesn't have the moral clarity or the balls to fight to win anymore.  That is the biggest problem.  Our so-called "allies" are even bigger pussies than we have become.  A few hard core people like the folks in the military and some of us cannot carry public opinion.  If the people won't support the war it is too hard to continue.  Politicians run scared and then shackle the military with all sorts of restrictions that cause us to lose ground and puts our guys at more risk.  That isn't fair to them so I would rather save them the trouble and bring them home. 

If it all flares up again over there, then we would have the excuse to just go back and obliterate them from the air.  Fuck the nation building, it ain't our job and a bunch of primitive fucks who don't want a nation are too hard to manage.  The only way to truly succeed would be to go back to the colonial model, take over the fucking country and run it with an iron fist.  We aren't up for that as a nation so forget it.

147 Re #115
"I have no problem with leaving Afghanistan as fucked as it has been for the past 1000 years as long as you can guarantee me we won't be back there in 5-10 years repeating the exercise."

Doesn't matter what happens if we leave.  AQ can setup shop and pull off ten more 9/11's.  We'll never reinvade Afghanistan.  Might nuke it (or some equivalent), but we'll never go back like we did.

The demographic fact that damned few people pay attention to is that the Obama people mostly live in cities.
Which are otherwise known as targets.
No matter what scenario you come up with, the vast majority of victims in an attack will be the people who voted for the One.
After which they will scream for something to be done as long as they themselves aren't the ones sent over to fight.
Do you think that the people who actually fight will be in much of a mood to go back?
I doubt it.

148 The longer we stay the worst shape the taliban will become and not the other way around.

If we leave the Taliban/AQ/whatever will be ripped and buff in short order.  Without the US there, you know Iran is going to build a veritable terrorist freeway to the border to funnel in bad guys and toys for them.

Maybe people have forgotten that Afghanistan has a rather long border with Iran?

149 we would have the excuse to just go back and obliterate them from the air.

The place is "pre-wrecked".  There are no fixed Taliban targets per se.  This was one of the observations made during the first ouster of the Taliban.

150 One other thought.  If we do leave, thanks to the dipshits who refuse to work toward a win, Pakistan is fucked.

151 We have a C&C who is a closet Marxist who does not appreciate nor understand the warrior ethos and the sacrafice made by our fine soldiers. We operate with very strict rules of engagement that place our troops at further risk. BHO and his ilk run an even more "political war" than Bush, so we get political decisions not military ones.
If we wanted to "win" in Astan, we could, but I have no faith in BHO and his adminsitartion and much of our civilian leadership who is more concerned about perception than reality. We came close to losing IRAQ as Bush made too many political decisions and finally used COIN and let it work.
To win in A-stan, we need to be ready to punish P-stan,and that won;t happen...we have too many pussies in DC that want us to be "nice".."soft power" does not work.

152 Pakistan has been fucked for a long time.  They invited the wolves into their house decades ago and lost control of them. 

153 Kagan's talking out of his ass to rationalize bad policy. The Afghan National Army's as shaky a reed to base our fortunes on as any other you could find...well, besides the Afghan National Police.

If Conservatives applied half of their skepticism to foreign policy as they did domestic policy, they'd be a long way to realizing the stupidity. We're trying to create a country and national institutions out of a nation that doesn't exist, with junk social science.

154 But go ahead - turn the U.S. Army into a giant social working institution, and build that mythical New Afghan Man. We can consider it the Peace Corps with guns, so long as we advise it not to use them. We've got plenty of money, energy, and political capital to waste carrying out international progressivism.

155 Posted by: Grimmy at August 31, 2009 09:13 PM (vU9UV)

So what you're saying is we need more tough talk and name calling to achieve victory.

Thanks for clearing that up.

156

Here is Wills column from a couple of days ago, he pretty muched fileted Obama then removed the skin.

 

An Ivy League Huey Long

http://tinyurl.com/nrsn4z

157

DrewM:

And your path is to crawl before those who preach defeat and despair, swallow wholesale the story of misery and woe, give up because it's difficult.

 

Calling names? Not hardly. Pointing out fact. You give yourself over to the useful idiots, you are a useful idiot. You give yourself over to the preachers of weakness and failure, you are part of the weakness that leads to failure.

The only question, is it, in your case, congenital or temporary?

158 Interesting. Most of the really liberal Dems I know were highly critical of the Iraq war. However, they said they would have supported a war in Afghanistan. This is where the Taliban was after all-and that's who went after us. Iraq was just Bush lied and cleaning up after Daddy's mess.

159 What the hell is it about rag-tag fanatical murderers that always makes liberals and certain "intellectual" conservatives always crave to turn tail and run?

I mean, REALLY?

It's obvious as hell the Taliban must be supplied by an outside power(s). Most obvious candidates: Iran, Russia, possibly China.

Iran can be dealt with - NEEDS to be dealt with.

Russia could possibly be bought off; if not, we could threaten to supply Muslims inside their borders in kind.

China is a different kettle of fish, but they have their own radical Muslim issues that we could exploit.

What we need to do to win in Afghanistan is think strategically, beyond the borders of that sandbox. But the LAST thing we need is negativity and defeatism.

160 no way Korea example is even distantly relevant.

Yea it is.  There are monetary costs and casualties in Korea every year.  Guys are getting killed and injured all the time there in training accidents, car crashes, etc.  Occasionally one gets shot by a trigger happy NORK border guard as well.

Daily operations of the US military in non-combat zones involves significant numbers of fatalities and injuries every year.  The public is largely unaware of this because the media doesn't report on it much.

ex. Even the US Coast Guard lost 4 people in an aviation accident last year in Hawaii.  The US Army had 193 people killed in accidents on the ground in 2008 and 14 killed in various aviation related accidents.

You will lost people in daily operations wherever motorized equipment or armament is involved.  It is the nature of humans interacting with gear.

Do not think we won't lose people because they're not deployed in a hot combat zone.  We will and do on a very regular basis.  Its the nature of the job.

161 Shit, let's deconstruct this crap in detail:

"If we are quoting counter-insurgency theory, then we might do well to be specific about it. COIN theory calls for 1 counterinsurgent for every 50 people in a conflict area (although this is hardly a hard-and-fast law, it turns out to be a reasonably good rule-of-thumb)."

Reasonable for Washington, perhaps. In reality, you can trace that number down to one article that was published in Parameters, the Army War College Journal, about 12 years ago. It then became the 'standard' figure because no one had a fucking clue how many men it takes to defeat an insurgency. Because...ding ding ding, no insurgency is alike. It's nothing but short-hand social science crap meant to simplify a complex problem - i.e., the kind of nonsense we'd be jumping up and down at the idiocy if it was used to base complex domestic policy. And, since Mr. Kagan has so much attention to detail, we clearly aren't just dealing with a COIN problem, but a nation building problem - i.e., not just helping an established government defeat an insurrection, but building a national government in the first place. So to even use COIN numbers is a misnomer to begin with.

The bottom line is we don't know how many people it would take to pacify and extend the Afghan national government's reach. There probably isn't even a number - that's how complex problems usually are. We might as well be debating gobbled-dy gook.

But for the sake of nonsense...

"There are perhaps 16 million people in the Pashtun belt that is the area in which almost all insurgent activity occurs in Afghanistan. The 1:50 ratio would call for about 320,000 counter-insurgents in that area."

Hmmm. Are we forgetting something? Oh yes. The 20 million or so Pashtuns that are right across the Afghan border in Pakistan. You know, the 20 million we can't touch and are relying on the Pakistani army to take care of.  Yet another reliable partner to base our fortunes on. Besides which, we hope the insurgency sticks to the Pashtuns. But a couple more years of beating around those areas and we're liable to find ourselves pissing off the rest of the country as well - the local politicians are already running against us in their elections.

But counter-insurgents includes indigenous forces.  Granting Will’s anecdotal observations that the Afghan police are at best ineffective (which is far too sweeping a statement), the Afghan National Army is at least as good as many of the organizations that functioned as counter-insurgents in Iraq.  The ANA numbers about 90,000 right now.  It can be expanded to 134,000 next year and perhaps 240,000 within a couple of years after that. 

Uh huh. Except the ANA doesn't have 90,000 troops. According to the GAO they had about 60,000-70,000. And that's hard to judge because of the rampant corruption (i.e., ghost soldiers who are on the rolls but don't actually exist) and desertion, which means there is massive turnover. And so, 8 years after 9-11, we're going to expand the Afghan National Army - already a shaky institution - 250% in a few years. Nope, can't see anything wrong with that projection - it's not like we're dealing with a country in which it is difficult to recruit nationally-minded recruits, or you know, fighting a full-fledged war on our own part. With European contingents themselves preparing to bug out within the next few years due to domestic political apathy. (I.e., prepare to say good bye to the Canadians, Dutch, and British, and company.)

While we're There are around 100,000 U.S. and international forces in Afghanistan now.  The surge of forces that some  (including me) are proposing is intended to bridge the gap between current Afghan capacity and future capacity while simultaneously reducing the insurgency’s capabilities.  Whatever may happen in Afghanistan, counter-insurgency theory does not call for the deployment of hundreds of thousands of coalition forces for decades.  Lastly, neither waving the bloody shirt nor rudely disparaging the efforts of allies who have shed their own blood alongside our troops is appropriate to this discussion.  But doing both in the same column is simply reprehensible.

No. I think it is simply reprehensible that after years of examples of our projections turning out to be crap, we're still committing so much effort based on the latest manufactured social science crap recycled as laws of war.

162 154 But go ahead - turn the U.S. Army into a giant social working institution, and build that mythical New Afghan Man. We can consider it the Peace Corps with guns, so long as we advise it not to use them. We've got plenty of money, energy, and political capital to waste carrying out international progressivism.
Posted by: MlR at August 31, 2009 09:46 PM (op9m5)

Hey, in case you missed it Obama just upped the cost of his liberal economic fiasco by a couple of trillion without blinking an eyelash. Do you expect Afghanistan to possibly cost anywhere near that amount?

Always think back to 9/11: the economic costs of a single attack launched by 19 people from Afghanistan was estimated in the TRILLIONS. Trillions. Think about that.

So WHAT if Afghanistan costs a few hundred billion, or even a trillion? So freaking WHAT?

163 I still don't see any meaningful way we can win this war. I hope I'm wrong, but I think we have to get out.

164

 CoolCzech at August 31, 2009 10:02 PM

I like your thinking guy.

165

Here is Wills column from a couple of days ago, he pretty muched fileted Obama then removed the skin.

He does this on a regular basis. But let's hang him for challenging conventional wisdom on Afghanistan.

166 Hey Drew, you spineless, lily-livered, pinko scum!

And all the rest of you cowardly so-and-so's!  You must all be tools of the left if you post here!

Anyone thinking about Alinsky and his fake KKK members when you read certain rants?

167

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168

I suggest that in A-stan the definition of victory is:  a condition where the nation is unable to generate or sustain threats against the United States.  If that means they live in squallor and civil war until the end of time, so be it.  It's the natural state of any muslim controlled area anyway.  So, once some central State apparatus is set up that is capable of keeping the stalemate in place with little or no assistance from us, then that's a win.  But whether that can really be achieved, I dare not hazard a guess.

I hate the idea that the US could allow a war to go un-won.  Viet Nam didn't have to be lost - and it was a serious error to let that effort fail.  It's offensive to imagine giving up any fight, since it encourages our enemies.  Alas - the vile hell hole has never been properly pacified.  The people are culturally deficient, making them incapable of setting up a proper nation.  They're barbarians, no matter how much DNA they may share with the Persians.  We don't have the nerve, and perhaps not even the means, to make them all die and thereby permanently fix the problem.  We can't fix them culturally or intellectually and thus make them similar to Western Man.  What's to be done to neutralize them as a threat?  Whatever the true solution is, I doubt we're willing to carry it out.  So, we should do whatever buys us the most time and keeps the bad guys over there tied up. 

169 Hey, in case you missed it Obama just upped the cost of his liberal economic fiasco by a couple of trillion without blinking an eyelash. Do you expect Afghanistan to possibly cost anywhere near that amount?

Always think back to 9/11: the economic costs of a single attack launched by 19 people from Afghanistan was estimated in the TRILLIONS. Trillions. Think about that.

So WHAT if Afghanistan costs a few hundred billion, or even a trillion? So freaking WHAT?

Hey, in case you missed it - that was a bad thing to emulate. The majority of the people who carried off the 9-11 attacks were based in countries besides Afghanistan - like Germany. It doesn't take much space for isolated cells to operate in. But hey, if you need a base country - Waziristan and the Pakistani Frontier Territories will do - i.e., the place immediately easy of the Afghan border that we can't touch, except with UAV strikes and through the Pakistanis. Not the 60,000 troops we have treading water a couple score miles to the West.

Eh, what the fuck. It's just monopoly money anyway. So WHAT if Afghanistan costs a few hundred billion, or even a trillion? And so WHAT if national health care and cap and trade costs a trillion more - errr... Maybe there actually isn't an infinite amount of water in the well, and you actually have to had to economize scarce economic resources. Why, that might actually be Conservative! To say nothing of military and political capital wasted building roads and irrigation ditches in asscrackistan.

170 I'm glad I don't need to make this decision.I can see almost nothing but negatives staying or going.

171

I will, here, now, fully do the mea culpa on a Doh! moment where I T3'd myself on Will being a C4.

Im not familiar with him or his writings, at least not as much as I should be but I'm familiar enough with a number of the commenters here to take their say on it. So, call it a drop fire or half cocked moment on my part.

 

As to the rest, no, I'm not a super sekrit libtard playin Axelrod games. I'm just calling it out as I see it, and I've seen it over and over and over again the last few decades. The going gets a bit messy, everything aint peachy keen and quickly settled with perfect results, therefore everything is crap and we gotta run away.

Bullshit.

Also, in a round about way, there seems to be some who really have no faith in our military's ability to adapt to new situations, regardless of how much evidence history, both long past and recent, demonstrate otherwise.

There's also quite a bit of willingness to churn up into panic mode.

We've been here before and both won and lost. We've won when the homefront stays strong, we've lost when the homefront got weak.

And no, DrewM. I don't, not even a little bit, think you qualify for the C4 tag. I've read plenty of your comments over time and know you're one of the goodun's. I do challenge you to check your shorts and see if you need to change em on this issue, though.

It is real easy to get played by defeatists and panickers. Things aint perfect, they never are and never will be. But we can win this war, and we will if the homefront stays strong. If we don't win this one, we're very much over as a nation with any ability to defend itself or go after scumbags working toward our destruction from afar.

Semper Fi. It ain't just a slogan.

172 I still don't see any meaningful way we can win this war.

We don't have to "win" in the traditionally accepted western sense, but the geopolitical ramifications of LOSING are unacceptable. 

One mistake that was made was assuming a (effective) national government could be formed.  Just giving up on that notion expands the possibilities for defining "win" considerably.

I have no problem with the Italy in the 1800's "squabbling principalities" type model, where the old warlords stand in for the princes.  We just let the warlords understand in no uncertain terms that their only obligations in our eyes are to keep the Taliban and terrorists tamped down, and in exchange we'll let them run the Opium trade in the country side unimpeded, and that Kabul MUST remain an "open city" with no warlord influence tolerated there.

Any breaches of said agreement would be met with devastating attacks on all of them from the air. 

The warlords are businessmen, they'll accept an agreement like that and honor it if we leave the Opium trade untouched as promised.

The "get out now" chorus DOES understand that leaving means completely giving up forever any hopes of ever turning Afghanistan away from being the world's heroin supplier I hope, right?

173 I'm glad I don't need to make this decision.I can see almost nothing but negatives staying or going.

Steevy - you and me both. The only consolation I get, and this is a guilty pleasure since it means jack shit for the people on the pointy end of the spear, is that it's the Democratic Party apparachniks who're holding this flaming bag of shit. It's actually threatening to limit the damage they do domestically.

Personally, I welcome our new LBJ.

174

Grimmy, My faith in the American Military is unshakable. The Commander in Chief and the screwballs in DC look an awful lot like Johnson, McNamara et al.

Semper Fidelis

175

Ohio Dan:

Atm, yeah. There were strong efforts to cast the previous admin into the same mold. I don't agree there, but this one, yeah. And not just because I hate that commie pos poser of a POTUS.

But, some perspective is due here too, I think. Militarily, the commiescum were defeated fully in Vietnam despite LBJ and McN. Those two nimrods made the job harder, but it got done. The loss in Vietnam came on the homefront through political malfeasance and pernicious betrayal. There is that threat here too, and has been ever since the domestic enemy won their war over Vietnam. That is the threat that we must guard ourselves against.

In regards to the Obamanard, this too shall pass. But, in order for us to survive that passage we've got to stand strong against those who, for whatever reason, give themselves over to undermining this war effort. To do otherwise is not only an abject betrayal of all who've fought in our name over there, but also another nail in our own coffin here at home.

This war can be won. It will be won if we stay strong and demand it be won.

Semper Fidelis

176

Video of Soldier with RPG lodged in hip being removed.  My DI said there was one one color in the Corps, Green.  These men are heros.  We may lose faith in our government but not our Military Men.  Short commercial at beginning and you will like it.  Military Times.

http://tinyurl.com/lkwoy3

 

177 It is real easy to get played by defeatists and panickers.
Posted by: Grimmy at August 31, 2009 10:36 PM (vU9UV)

I'm not getting played. I've been saying since 2002 here and elsewhere that I think we are going to have to have a couple of thousand troops there for a good long time.

Essentially what we will do is bomb the shit out of AQ whenever they are stupid enough to gather in groups of 5 or more.

To me that's the best case scenario.

Yes, it will be very hard to get intel on such meetings but that kind of problem is workable and quiet easy compared to trying to build anything resembling a civil society where none has ever existed and their are no basic elements to create it. In short, I have almost unlimited faith in the US military to solve and ISR problem but have no interest on bleeding it on an insoluble nation building mission.

FTR- I could not care less if the Taliban takes over again. My only concern is AQ is prevented from rebuilding its infrastructure system and never has any breathing space. That to me is an achievable mission.

178

DrewM:

I disagree but, we're talking future so it's impossible to prove whether right or wrong, so it's just disagreement on my part.

I question your fixation on AQ. AQ is only part of the problem. Imo, fixating on AQ is much like it would have been if we limited our response to Japan by focusing exclusively on the JPN air elements that attacked Pearl.

AQ is only a part of the jihadiscum movement, and it's not even a major part any more. There's lots and many other organizations with other names but with the same mission stepping up to fill the holes all over the caliphate and areas that play appeasement to that.

Question: If the talib are allowed to fully re-infest Afghanistan, uncontested, who the hell will ever stand up with us again? Who would be stupid enough to ever trust us again? Also, the talib ideology is very much part and parcel of the expansionist jihadiscum dogma.

Do you believe that the young sons of the talib wouldn't be sent off to fight in the great global jihad where ever spray and pray self detonators are required by the mullahs?

I suggest that, with Afghanistan, as in every other possible front in this long, generational war against jihadiscum and the efforts to reborn the caliphate, there are no easy outs, no short cuts, no quick fixes.

Achievable missions are whatever we, as a nation, gear ourselves up and stand solid behind as necessary.

The more that sing the doom and gloom song, the more the resolve to stand strong gets eaten away. We all play our part in that issue, on one side or the other.

I ask you to step back a bit and consider the repercussions of our run away from Somalia. What motivations were drawn from that? What motivations do you think may be drawn from us either cutting and running or defining "victory" so far downward it's a joke, in Afghanistan, or anywhere else?

179 AQ is only a part of the jihadiscum movement, and it's not even a major part any more. There's lots and many other organizations with other names but with the same mission stepping up to fill the holes all over the caliphate and areas that play appeasement to that.

That's why I talk about their infrastructure. That's how they brought all those groups together. The Uighurs weren't AQ per se but they were in sympathy and AQ trained their fighters in the Afghanistan base. Denying them that kind of room doesn't just hurt AQ but all the affiliate groups that used their resources and pledged their support.

Question: If the talib are allowed to fully re-infest Afghanistan, uncontested, who the hell will ever stand up with us again? Who would be stupid enough to ever trust us again?

Two answers to that...

First, the same people as always...those who need us.

Second, our 'allies' have abandonded us already on a political level. The Brits will be out of there in a year, two at the most anyway. Who else is there in real numbers and for how long?

Achievable missions are whatever we, as a nation, gear ourselves up and stand solid behind as necessary.

That's a lovely sentiment but it's simply not true. It is not within the power of the US military to make Afghanistan a country as we use the term. Only the people of Afghanistan can do that, we can help but only the can do it. There's simply no evidence they will or want to.

What motivations do you think may be drawn from us either cutting and running or defining "victory" so far downward it's a joke, in Afghanistan, or anywhere else?

Personally, I don't think we have lost Afghanistan. As I've said several times tonight alone, I don't think victory there was ever going to look like victory in Iraq becasue the countries are simply very different.

To me victory in Afghanistan means denying it to those who used it to attack us. We have done and I think we can continue to do that.

If victory means instilling a legimate central government in Kabul and creating a decent civil society, we are doomed.

This isn't symantics (declare vicotry and leave), it's simply setting achievable missions that meet our strategic goals. I don't see how that's advocating for defeat.

BTW- I may have missed it but what in your mind constitutes victory? If I missed it, please just point me to the comment.

180 Something else to consider...

Suppose in some theoretical world we could 'defeat' and 'eliminate' the Taliban. Then what? Does anyone really think that would magically solve the problems there?

If you do, consider the Taliban was founded in the mid-90's. Did I miss the part where Afghanistan was a wonderful thriving country before that (or the Soviet invasion)?

Eliminate the Taliban and you are still looking at a desolate, fractured and impoverished country.

Then what?

181 I am all for pulling our troops out of the 'stan.
According to left wing troofers, it was GW who new about or ordered the 9/11 attacks. 

The demo-rats are all against military funding.  They are all against help for our vets.   They have always been, so nothing changed.  Some leftist libs "say" they are for the troops,  but if you look deep, it is a charade.  Any pony tailed asswipe come to mind?

182 Like our new TV show this fall.

Not NCIS Norfolk, not NCIS San Diego.  No.  We have now NCIS LA.  WTF?

It must be the new navy base on the Hollywood Hills.

183 To me victory in Afghanistan means denying it to those who used it to attack us. We have done and I think we can continue to do that.

Before you asked what a "win" is defined as, and you've answered that question for yourself. 

You also asked how long I'd be willing to stay there, my answer was forever.  Your definition of what a win is doesn't seem to have an exit strategy, rather it more of a maintenance operation, which is what I envision.

Isn't all this pretty much what I've been advocating?

Actually, if the Warlord/Opium option I described were taken, a small group of spec ops working with the warlords to assist (and distribute occasional bribes of course) in Taliban/AQ hunting would probably be quite effective with a bit of drone and occasional AC-130 support as needed when some target of significance appeared.  A large part of that job would be double checking to make sure the warlords weren't gaming the system trying to use our hammer to zap competing warlords.

We took down the Taliban in a month with only about 300 guys on the ground. 

184

When Bush Senior got the Iraqi Shia all rarin' to go, and then did dick all to help them against saddam, that damaged American honor.

Now people want to pull that again in Afghanistan. Bluntly: it is despicable to consider it.

185 Bluntly: it is despicable to consider it.

Unfortunately, the US has probably been considered an unreliable ally for the past 45 years (go back to the Bay of Pigs), so an abandonment here, while damaging and emboldening the forces of evil around the world as it always does, is not something our nominal allies, or would be future allies, would find particularly surprising.  This would be particularly true for our 2nd and 3rd string allies like *cough* *cough* Honduras *cough* *cough* .

US foreign policy's "treachery index" is probably only second to that of England's, and its "stupidity index" probably tops the charts.  The US might occasionally do the right thing, but all other bogus and/or damaging options will have to be fully explored and tried first.

186  Ysterday i bought a rolex watches to my father,he was very like it He asked me hou can there be so much money to buy so expensive watch ,I told he ,this is a replica watches but it's better than a real rolex watches  and  omega watches bad and it is also very durable and beautiful
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187

75% of the Afghans are illiterate tribal people living in villages.  How the fuck are you going to turn a place like that into a modern democratic state in less than 20 years and two trillion dollars or so?

Secure small enclaves around Kabul and Kandahar for SOF bases to raid the Al Qaeda types who want global jihad and get the hell out of the rest of the country.

Within two months the Soviets realized they could roll Carter and take Afghanistan with no immediate repercussions of consequence.

"No immediate reprercussions"  LOL.

Maybe that was Carter's crafty plan to bring down the USSR, because it turned out that Afghanistan was one of the causes of the fall of the Soviet empire.

188

George Will’s Life Accomplishments

1977—Pulitzer Prize for Commentary

1978—Headliner Award for consistently outstanding feature columns

1979—Finalist for National Magazine Award in essays and criticism

1980—Silurian Award for editorial writing

1991—Silurian Award for editorial writing

1991—First Place in Interpretive Columns: Clarion Awards from Women in Communications

1991—Cronkite Award, Arizona State University

1992—Madison Medal Award, Princeton University

1993—William Allen White Award, William Allen White School of Journalism at the University of Kansas

2003—Walter B. Wriston Lecture Award, The Manhattan Institute

2005—Bradley Prize, The Bradley Foundation

 

 A Military Tactical Genius in Yellow Slacks.

Any Military analysis that George Will has is not worth wasting any of my time on.

189 Isn't all this pretty much what I've been advocating?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 01, 2009 02:11 AM (65kCE)

I tried to read all the comments but didn't get to them all. That's why I was asking what people meant by victory.

I was under the impression you were talking about this massive civil affairs effort where we try and build a whole civil society. That's not going to happen. We shouldn't try and keep the Taliban out of every town or even every province. Just don't let the terrorist infrastructure return.

Sorry if I misunderstood or assumed what you meant by 'victory'.

190

I am not a general, and I cannot predict how Afghanistan will turn out.

But I do not like the objection to action there being that it's a tribal wasteland, and not civilized enough. In several manners of speaking, a tribal wasteland should be heaven on earth for conservatives and other admirers of liberty and self-sufficiency. Certain parts of this nation, the most "uncivilized," are the best places to live and thrive, and have proven effective at self-defense and driving out oppresive influences from outside. Don't make me name states. 

There are scads of inspired metalworkers in Afghanistan, and that's not a gunsmithing joke. Their farmers are as resourceful as any outside the industrial world. Afghans have worked logistical miracles over the centuries, operating networks of trade and transport in the worst terrain, and have colorful trucks.

The US need not be the party of strong centralized government to be an agent of liberty. There are people and causes there worth fighting for. We should give up as soon as possible on any notion of "nation building" that uses western party "democracies" as a model; there's still a lot we (or other parties) can do to promote self-government and security from terror on a local and regional basis. Here's the question: is that definition of freedom compatible with Islam?

If it is not, we need to broaden the front and kill them all. If it is, we can win.  

191

when all we talk about is the military, we ignore that we have a feckless president who could care less about the military and any goal of "victory" in Afghanistan.  I think GW's strategy of relying on intelligence and pinpoint strikes is ridiculous if you abandon the country.  No presence is no intelligence.  Further, you can't influence any issue in Pakistan if  you don't have a presence in Afghanistan.  All those strategic issues, however, presume a president that wants to win or kill the bad guys.  Ours doesn't care.

192 by the way, how long did the British, with technology inferior to today, keep Afghanistan under its boot.

193 Posted by: ed at September 01, 2009 10:58 AM (Urhve)

In fairness, they did it the smart way by buying off local warlords. They weren't concerned about elections, a central government or even the welfare of the people.

It's actually a strategy that combined with the ocassional air strike, is looking pretty good about now.

194 DrewM: Sorry I'm late in replying. Morning was coming early so I had to quit early to compensate. Much of what you've been saying in replies, seems to me, to be bouncing around on what victory means or how it is to be defined in Afghanistan, and that can be a point of endless debate for some, but it is really most very simple. Victory is Afghanistan and its inhabitants being rendered inert as a threat for at least the next few generations. Does that mean, as the zero sum gamers like to pretend it must mean, that Afghanistan must be transformed into the 51st state of our union? Or, that it must be transformed into a mimic of one EU member state or another? No, it doesn't. It means that Afghanistan, and its peoples, and its surrounds be made nonop as a source of future threat. That is all it means. That is all it ever meant, except in the minds of shit eating pundits, talking media heads, retards, numbnuts and assorted malcontents. Where I've questioned you, and others here, is in your willingness to allow shit eaters and retards to turn you out into giving in to your frustrations and you going for the quick fix mode or all is lost, this is stupid mode. All too often, useful idiotness isn't something consciously chosen. For many, it is something that happens slowly, by degree, over time as the constant flood of shit eater vomit wears away morale or builds up frustrations in the individual, and that individual just gives up and starts lapping up the vomit of the shit eaters. That does happen to nearly everyone at some time or other on some issue or other. The differentiation between permanently lost and temporarily stumbled is lined out in a comment above. It's happened to me, I know. I got that way over Iraq for a short while. There are also times when I catch myself turning out as a shit eater's vomit lapper upper over health care. "Fuck it. Let em have it. Who really gives a shit anymore." Can be heard from time to time bouncing around inside my noggin. Human nature. But, it's how a person gets up off it and gets back to standing his/her place on the shield wall that matters. Now, as to your rather ignorant belief that the US does not have the power and, in time, the ability to accomplish whatever the fuck we want, how ever the fuck we want it, let me school you a bit. Traditional America still exists. The damage done over the last few decades is, in the long run, purely superficial and will, before long, be dealt with. Traditional America is starting to wake the fuck up as it always does when the threat is no longer ignorable and patience runs out. Traditional America in full warfighting mode is best described by the fighting that was done on the Pacific Islands. No quarter given. Absolute, resolute, merciless and to the last enemy standing. As to abhorrent cultures and our inability to deal with such, do remember that we took a long standing warrior culture in the case of the Japanese, and ripped all those elements right out of their soul that we felt caused them to be belligerent. It was done so thoroughly that even now, generations later, the mere thought of one of their citizens going to war somewhere can cause the entire population to convulse in fear and revulsion. That is still in us. The actions and degree of vengeance levied against that enemy is still available in our inventory. When traditional America gets fed up with the bullshit given by an enemy, that enemy is made to cease to exist as an enemy, and if necessary, can be made very nearly extinct. There are examples of such all through our history. And, along with those examples, there are parallels to our current problems on the political front at home. These tend to go hand in hand and the homefront issue tends to trigger or feed into the aggressive, overwhelming, comprehensive destructiveness in dealing with enemy. The frustration of the one limits the willingness to put up with the frustrations of the other. It aint gonna happen today. It probably wont happen this year. I suspect there's about 10-15 years of play left in the cycle. By that time, every silly theory and impractical philosophy that glommed onto our military during the cold war and the "peace dividend" time will have been tested, tried in every possible permutation, and discarded as worthless. We'll also be shed of those who infest our chain of command that were raised up during the peace time preference for bureaucratic "stability" and be a fully warborn military. Patience. We will win. We've done the losing thing and it did not, does not and will not be acceptable again. Who the current POTUS is means nothing in the long run, except to our allies and trust that others have in us. Any trust in us is misplaced, for so long as the neo-marxist left is allowed to survive in this culture. Most folk get that. Those that dont are mostly dominated by their own shit eating neo-marxist left, and, in the case of the EU, are either long term traditional enemy anyway, or have rendered themselves to parasite status and are worthless as allies. A rage break is building up on the homefront. Once the deck is cleared from that, much will change. And much, if not all, of this bullshit "softly softly catchee monkee" idiocy will also stop, along with the simpering weak need to beg worthless shit eating scum from europe to like us. Once we stop wasting effort in appeasing those losers and their piss weak sensibilities, we can get on with doing what ever the hell it takes to put this enemy into the dirt so fucking hard that for generations to come, any one of them gives even a hint of reopening belligerence against us, his own fellows will turn on him and rend him to pieces out of abject fear of drawing our destructive attention again. We have it in us. It will be demonstrated again. We've just got to go through this ridiculously long process of trying other avenues before we let it stride out and display itself.

195 Well said, Grimmy.

Comatus, good post.

The role of Pakistan's ISI in creating the Taliban and their continuing support of the Taliban is something we're going to have to deal with. They are the cancer that's going to kill our Afghan efforts.

196

I did put paragraph breaks, or at least hit enter and added spaces, in that long arsed post above, honest.

 

197 Posted by: Grimmy at September 01, 2009 05:08 PM (pmjkQ)

Victory is Afghanistan and its inhabitants being rendered inert as a threat for at least the next few generations.

First of all, the people of Afghanistan have never been a threat to us. The Taliban government was only a threat in one important respect...their willingness to give safe haven to AQ and their assorted terrorist friends.

Don't forget that there was period between 9/11 and the invasion of Afghanistan (such as it was at first) where we were willing to leave the Taliban in place if they handed over bin Laden, the other Arabs and dismantled the camps.

Where I've questioned you, and others here, is in your willingness to allow shit eaters and retards to turn you out into giving in to your frustrations and you going for the quick fix mode or all is lost, this is stupid mode.

You have no fucking clue what you are talking about, at least regarding me.  I've been down on the idea of nation building there almost from the start. It's simply not doable, nor is it necessary to our strategic needs.

Can we deny terrorists the use of Afghanistan? Yes. Do we need to build a central government to do that? No. The history of Afghanistan amply demonstrates that that is a fools errand.


Now, as to your rather ignorant belief that the US does not have the power and, in time, the ability to accomplish whatever the fuck we want, how ever the fuck we want it, let me school you a bit.

Again, tough talk may comfort you. it is however unrelated to the real world. Was America tough enough for you in the '50's? We tired of Korea and Eisenhower won the presidency in part on pulling the plug.

We can not make Afghanistan into a functioning country and we can not make the Afghan people part of the modern world.

I suspect there's about 10-15 years of play left in the cycle.

You really think that the US public will put up with the kind of violence we are seeing there for 10-15 years? Based on what? That's simply unsustainable in a modern democracy.

Keep in mind, I am not for pulling out and I am not for Will's over the horizon redeployment. I want to give up on the folly of creating a central government. I want to cut the best deal we can with the necessary locals and keep just enough firepower there to enforce the deals and keep the bad guys from getting frisky with us (no more Terrorism U campuses).
 

198 When the going gets tough, get out. That was the lesson I crammed down America's throat when I was secretly in charge of the Vietnam War...both in the LBJ and lying Nixon days.

Working out of a secret undisclosed location in the Watergate hotel, I made all the decisions re the war. Everything went fine until we kicked the VC's ass during Tet. After that victory only defeat or ignomious dinky dao chu hoi was left...I wisely chose dinky dao.

I know the sound of boots scurrying for the back door of a Russian roulette parlor as the MP's come in the front door.

After the victory at Torabora the only choice for America was once again dinky dao. I have the ear of The Won and he will  listen.

Soon pottery from Afghanistan will be competing with pottery from Vietnam at a Wall Mart near you.

I'm smarter than you too...neener neener

199

"First of all, the people of Afghanistan have never been a threat to us. The Taliban government was only a threat in one important respect...their willingness to give safe haven to AQ and their assorted terrorist friends."

First of all, actually, many of those Talib are, in fact, Afghan. Some are Paki, some are jihadiscum filth flowing in from every jihadiscum community on the planet, most are Afghan.

So yeah, beating the fight out of the Talib, and all other forms of jihadiscum in that AO, are samey same process.

"You have no fucking clue what you are talking about, at least regarding me.  I've been down on the idea of nation building there almost from the start. It's simply not doable, nor is it necessary to our strategic needs."

I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about? You've shown yourself as bent over the bench and spreading you punk ass cheeks for the bullshit propaganda of the weak suck defeatists. On your knees for the shit eaters. YOU have no clue about what is possible, or not in that or any other current military AO. NONE of us do. We have at best, some limited view from embeds with a clue who are NOT reporting on higher access and secure material. They are, bless em for it too, reporting what they can see, limited by their limited range of view. That is not a slam on them (the likes of Yon and others) but a statement of reality. I've been a grunt. I know the grunt eye view of the world. You get real good at what's going on in a 500 yard radius, after that, it's scuttlebutt and rumor. YOU also demonstrate again and again in your comments that YOU have adopted the worst case scenario for YOUR opinion foundation.

Just tough talk? You have no idea how deeply defeatist are hated and despised. How much defeatists, sniveling shit eaters, deserve to be dragged out in the streets and stomped. It is those, such as you demonstrate yourself to be that make all the sacrifices, all the pain, privation and misery, into nothing. Waste. Drag defeat from the jaws of victory. We've seen it in this nation within living memory and you, yes you, and all those like you, are laying down and ready to quit because....?

Why the fuck do you or anyone else not directly engaged in the fighting have any viable reason what so fucking ever to be playing the "war fatigue" meme? Why the fuck dont you just quit dragging your black propaganda sucking ass and go the full "Quagmire"?

What the fuck has this war done to fatigue you or any other civilian? Have you been put on rations? Have you been forced into war material production work? Is your travel restricted on a day to day basis because of this war? Fuck no. This is as painless a war on the civilian side as has ever occurred.

Where your fatigue comes from is from being constantly told you should be fatigued. That constant drum beat of "you should be tired of this by now". "You should want this all over now". "This can't be won, we can't win, it's all for nothing, stop it now, you're too tired to continue, the military is a bunch of morons without a clue, the military is just idiots who couldn't get real jobs,..."

Yeah, as quick as you bend over for that shit eater nonsense, I bet you're burned out on this war.

"Again, tough talk may comfort you. it is however unrelated to the real world. Was America tough enough for you in the '50's? We tired of Korea and Eisenhower won the presidency in part on pulling the plug."

News flash numbnut. Yeah, we've gone weak and wobbly in the past and paid long term and dearly for it. Each fucking failure of resolve has added to the next building cat-ass-trophy as our enemy gains strength from those failures. Enough folk understand that and are paying attention now. That's the PRIMARY reason that milblogs started up in the first place.

Let me school your ignorant ass on some of the history behind what you dismiss as just "tough talk".

The Philippine Insurrection. Motards, pirates, bandits and a hard core warrior culture. Our forces, without large numbers, without great technological supremacy, without much logistics support, broke that insurrection down so fucking hard and ruthlessly that, when it was all over, the leader of our men "Black Jack Pershing" was the #1 name given to newborn boys for a generation in that area. Broke the fucking back of that insurrection for well over a full generation. Did it without mercy, without compassion, with full vengeance and brutal efficiency.

How about the "Small Wars" period of the late '20s, early '30s, Central America AO and the Carib? Small detachments of our military were put into areas dominated by bandits and other forms of insurrectionistas, and slaughtered them, broke them. Hunted them down. All over that area of ops.

You've completely discounted the reality of what our fighting forces are capable of, as highlighted by the battles in the Pacific, so I'll offer you another. Europe WW2.

Our men behaved toward our enemy with a level of decency in regard to POWs and such, because, on a general level, the Germans did the same. Tit for tat. But, our side was also capable of bombing cities into dust, heaping misery and despair upon civilian populations, and after the war was over and the Germans started pulling insurrection bullshit, our side was as brutal and efficient at putting them down as any other people in any other period of history.

Guillotines were run night and day. Towns or villages that were especially problematic risked being surrounded and pounded by artillery for 24 hours or more. After the arty was lifted, word would be posted in the town proclaiming that any more problems and everyone suffered the penalty. It was not at all unusual for the citizens of those towns and villages to take it upon themselves to hunt down and kill the "Werewolves" (as the naziscum guerrillas called themselves) and hang em up on the outskirts of their towns and/or villages as proof that they were trying to comply.

You name Korea as an example of how America is weak. Sure. After a war that could cause as many casualties in a day's fighting as our entire military has suffered in this entire war to date. A war that had every citizen going without due to rationing. A war that impacted every aspect of day to day life for much of its duration. There was actual cause for "war fatigue". Now? Yeah, it's been a real hardship on the civilian side of things. For sure. Like, think of all those billions that could have been funneled into yet another pointless, purposeless, useless, functionless welfare scheme? Real hardship.

Ask the native Americans how thorough traditional Americans can be once they get their full hate on?

Ask the few Japanese survivors of any of the pacific theater battles how merciless American warfighters can be once they decide the enemy should not be suffered to live under any circumstances?

We are foot dragging and stumbling toward victory now, I agree. This is due to 3 full decades of effort by the left to diminish and reduce our ability to fight against anyone, anywhere any time for any reason. This has been a long and sadly successful campaign with the aim of reducing our warfighting capability to nothing more than what would be required as UN peace keepers.

The shit aint permanent and things are starting to change. Stand the fuck by and pay attention. Unfortunately, nothing happens in a micro wave minute so the "pay attention" part also requires patience.

Now, on a personal note. If you'd prefer this go toward civil discussion, fine by me. But I'll tell you straight up, sniveling and mewling about what can or can not be accomplished with nothing but drummed up frustration built upon nothing but a constant doom sayer meme propagation aint gonna cut it.

So, in closing, since I'm done with this thread...

Semper Fi, Mac.

200 Grimmy

FTR-I never said I was tired of the war. So you can save your neo-chicken-hawk argument for someone else.

Just out of curiosity, why are you so hellbent on ignoring the fact that I am not calling for surrender or withdrawal? Does not wanting to commit the US to dragging Afghanistan into the 18th century, let alone the 21st really qualify as weak willed defeatism in your mind?

Oh and one other thing...if you are going to engage in a debate you might want to try bringing these things called 'ideas'. They are helpful. Whining about how soft America is and that we should just suck it up because we are teh Awesome doesn't really count as an idea.

Again, ftr, I am a strong believer in American exceptionalism, however I don't confuse that with the idea that America is omnipotent.

Sorry you don't think America is tough enough anymore. That simply doesn't change the fact there is zero political will in this country for a 10-15 fight in Afghanistan at current levels of money, troops and casualties. Citing the Indian Wars of the 19th century and the Banana Wars of a hundred years ago, isn't exactly persuasive, nor are the parallels what you seem to think.

I hope you enjoy your bluster I'm sure it's comforting to you.

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تسريحات عرايس تسريحات شعر ~ تساريح عروس صور تسريحات شعر
تسريحات وقصات للشعر الطويل تسريحات وقصات للشعر القصير قصات 2009 تسريحات 2009
ميك اب احمد قبيسي مكياج الخبير أحمد قبيسي صور مكياج 2009 للخبير احمد قبيسي
تسريحات عرايس تسريحات زواج صور تسريحات ناعمه تسريحه
مكياج الخبيره خديجه العلي‏ صور ميك اب خديجة العلي صور مكياج خديجة العلي
مكياج الخبيره زكيه أحمد صور مكياج زكيه احمد صور مكياج
مكياج الخبيره رشا الحافظ صور مكياج حليمه بولند صور ميك اب‏
مكياج الخبيره نورا مكياج الفنانه هند البلوشي صور ميك اب نورا ~ صور مكياج 2009 ممثلات‏
شرح طريقة عمل الشعر كتسريحة الف - طريقه تسريحة البف
تسريحات وقصات شعر طوني مندلق تساريح شعر قصير تسريحات وصبغات وقصات‏
ميك اب نانسي عجرم صور مكياج الفنانه نانسي عجرم مكياج نانسي عجرم 2009 ~ صور نانسي عجرم
مكياج عيون ميك اب خليجي مكياج عيون مكياج اماراتي
تسريحات ديانا كرزون مكياج ديانا كرزون صور ديانا كرزون تسريحات ومكياج الفنانه ديانا كرزون
تسريحات زينب العسكري مكياج زينب العسكري صور زينب العسكري
قصات و تسريحات اطفال تسريحات صبايا بنوتات للاطفال الصغار 2009
مكياج ميساء مغربي تسريحات ميساء مغربي صور ميساء مغربي
صور مكياج بسام فتوح صور ميك اب الخبير بسام فتوح مكياج فنانات 2009
مكياج حليمه بولند من كتالوج سحر الشرق 2009 , صور مكياج حليمه بولند , صور مكياج جديده .
هدايا للافراح أفكار هدايا الزواج طرق تجهيز هدايا للزواج
تقشير الوجه ، تقشير الوجه ، خلطات تقشير الوجه ، وصفات تقشير الوجه ، وصفات تقشير الوجه ، خلطات تقشير الوجه وصفة تقشير البشره
خلطات تقوية الأظافر ، وصفات تقوية الأظافر ، خلطة تقوية الأظافر ، وصفة تقوية الأظافر ~ خلطات للأظافر‏
وصفه تبييض الجسم ، وصفات تطييب رائحه الجسم ، وصفات تعطير رائحه الجسم ، خلطات تطيب رائحه الجسم
تسريحات ,تسريحات 2009 ,تسريحات روعه ,تسريحات جديده ,تسريحات ناعمه ,مكياج 2009 ,مكياج جديد ,مكياج روعه ,مكياج ناعم ,مكياج هادئ
صور مكياج الفنانه أميره محمد صور ميك اب الفنانه أميره محمد صور أميره محمد جديد صور مكياج الفنانه أميره محمد‏
تسريحات رفعات الشعر الطويل تسريحات للشعر الطويل تسريحات رفعات 2009
مكياج امل العوضي 2009 جديد ميك اب الفنانه أمل العوضي صور أمل العوضي 2009
ملف لخلطات تفتيح لون الجسم, خلطات لتبييض الجسم, خلطات لنعومة الجسم وتعطيره
وصفات لتبييض اليدين وصفات لتبييض مناطق الجسم وصفات تبييض للجسم وصفة لتبيض اليدين
تبيض الركب ، وصفات تبيض الركب ، خلطات تبيض الكوع ، وصفة تبيض الكوع وصفات تبيض الركبه والكوع
وصفة تنعيم الشعر ، خلطة تنعيم الشعر ، وصفة فرد الشعر ، خلطة فرد الشعر ، وصفات للشعر ، خلطات للشعر
مسكات للعرايس أقنعة للعروسات ماسك للوجه ماسك للعيون ماسك للشفاء ماسك لليدين والرجليين
خلطات منوعه لتبييض الاسنان ، تبييض الاسنان ، اسنان بيضاء ، خلطه تبييض ، خلطات للتبييض ، لتبييض
خلطات الدكتور عبد الباسط السيد ، وصفات خلطات الدكتور عبد الباسط السيد ، خلطات عبد الباسط السيد للجمال ، خلطات عبد الباسط السيد للشعر ، خلطات عبد الباسط السيد للبشره
خلطات الدكتور جابر القحطاني ، خلطات جابر القحطاني ، ملف خلطات جابر القحطاني ، خلطات جابر القحطاني للجمال ، خلطات الجمال ، خلطات جابر للجمال
خلطات تعطير الشعر للبنات ، خلطات تعطير شعرك ، خلطات تعطير شعر ، خلطات لشعر معطر
خلطات لجمال العيون خلطات للعيون خلطات طبيعيه
خلطات لزيادة الوزن وصفات لزيادة الوزن للتسمين
خلطه لتنعيم الشعر خلطات العناية بالشعر خلطات الحناء للشعر خلطات العناية
خلطات طبيعية للوجه ، خلطات للوجه ، خلطات تبييض للوجه ، خلطة للوجه
خلطات لتكبير العيون خلطات للعيون
خلطات لتبيض الركب والاكواع خلطات لازالة السواد خلطات طبعيه
خلطات لتنحيف السريع خلطات لشد الجسم خلطات تنحيف وشد
خلطات لتنفيخ الشفايف خلطات تنفيخ حلوه‏
صبغات شعر جديده صبغات شعر روعه قصات شعر 2009
خلطات لتنعيم اليد ، خلطات تنعيم ، خلطات حلوه ، خلطات مضمونه ، خلطات لليد
ميك أب جديد مكياج خفيف وبسيط مكياج ناعم ميك اب روعه
تسريحات 2010 تسريحات جديده تسريحات روعه تسريحات رائعه
مكياج الفنانه البحرينيه زينب العسكري 2009 مكياج زينب العسكري خليجي مكياج زينب العسكري للعرايس مكياج زينب العسكري لبناني
قصات جديدة , قصات 2009 , قصات وصبغات 2009 , صبغات 2009 , قصات وصبغات جديدة , قصات شعر 2009 , قصات شعر جديدة , صبغات شعر 2009
تسريحات للشعر الطويل تسريحات للشعر القصير تسريحه للشعر الطويل والقصير تسريحات 2009 للزواج
صور مكياج 2009صور مكياج بناتي صور مكياج خليجي صور مكياج
ميك آب احمد قبيسي مكياج احمد قبيسي مكياج 2009 احمد قبيسي
مكياج روعه , مكياج للحفلات , ميك آب للمناسبات , صور مكياج جديده , مكياج 2009 .‏
حواجب مرتبه دون نمص‎ , أروع الحواجب ,طريقة رسم الحواجب .
مجموعة ماكس فاكتور كريم اساس ماكس فاكتور روعه مسكره ماكس فاكتور
مكياج علا الفارس ميك اب علا الفارس صور مكياج المذيعه علا الفارس مكياج مذيعات
تسريحات كيرلي تسريحات ناعمه تسريحات 2009
خلطات لشفايف خلطات للمحافظه على الشفايف خلطات حلوه‏
صور مكياج لبناني هادي مكياجات روعه ميك اب لبناني ميك اب ناعم
صور تسريحات شعر - تساريح - قصات 2009‏
تسريحات حلوة , تسريحات للجامعة , تسريحات للبنوتات , تسريحات روعة , طريقة عمل الجدايل , جدايل حلوة , جدايل روعة , تسريحات للبنات , طرق عمل الجدايل الفرنسيه , طرق عمل جدايل عناقيد ذيل السمكه
تسريحات شعر- تسريحات مرفوعه - تسريحات ناعمه - تسريحات شع009 - تسريحات مناسبات
تسريحات رومانيه ، تسريحات شعر رومانيه ، تسريحات رومانيه للشعر الطويل ، تسريحات رومانيه 2010
تسريحات عرايس, تسريحات فخمه , تسريحات 2009 , تسريحات للشعر الطويل
صور مكياج الفنانه الهام فضاله ميك اب الممثله الكويتيه الهام فضاله صور مكياج ممثلات
تسريحات بناتيه تسريحات للزواج تسريحات 2009 صور تسريحات روعه‏
صور مكياج الخبيره حياة التميمي صور مكياج 2009
مكياج بثينة الرئيسي ، ميكاج الفنانه بثينة الرئيسي ، ميك اب بثينة الرئيسي ، صور بثينة الرئيسي
احدث مكياج 2009 مكياج غريب مكياج خطير مكياج جديد‏(
تبييض المؤخرة خلطة بياض المؤخرة‏(
صبغات للشعر صور احدث قصاات للشعر 2009 -2010 نصائح للشعر‏
كوشات 2010 كوشات بطراز صيني كوشات للزواج كوشه صيني
قصات ايمو تسريحات ايمو قصات بنات‏
وصفات تطويل الشعر ، خلطات تطويل الشعر ، وصفة تطويل الشعر ، خلطة تطويل الشعر ، تطويل الشعر ~ خلطات للشعر
حناء ، نقش حناء ، نقش حناء خليجي ، نقش حناء هندي ، نقش حناء إماراتي ، نقش حناء للعرايس
خلطات تبيض البشره ، خلطات تفتيح البشره ، خلطات للبشره ، وصفات تبيض البشره ، وصفات تفتيح البشره ، وصفات للبشره
أختاري أفضل مكياج من بين مكياج الفنانات !!!
مكياج جويل مكياج ساره مكياج روعه مكياج خبيرة التجميل جويل مكياج خبيرة التجميل ساره
قصات ، قصات شعر ، قصة شعر ، قصات 2010 ، قصات للشعر القصير ، قصات للشعر الطويل ، قصات 2010 للشعر القصير
تسريحات حليمه بولند صور قصات المذيعه حليمه بولند تسريحات وقصات 2009
تسريحة بايس هيتون . صور تسريحات كيوت . طريقه عمل تسريحة الفيونكه صورطريقه عمل تسريحه الفيونكه
مجلة كاملة لجمالك تجهيزات العروس, المكياج, تسريحات, منتجات العناية بالجسم, الاكسسورات والمجهورات, تسريحات انيقة, قصات شعر 2008, اناقة ومكياج, عناية بابشرة, اقنعة وجة, للبشرة جافة,للبشرة دهنية, للبشرة
تسريحة للمدرسة تساريح للمدرسة تسريحات للبنات
تسريحات لشعر الطويل تسريحات سهره تساريح شعر روعه
تسريحات عرايس 2009 تسريحات سهره 2010 خاص لعروس
حناء للعرايس ، نقش حناء للعرايس ، رسومات حناء للعرايس ، حناء 2010
تسريحات رائعة تسريحات لبنوتات تسريحات حلوة‏
صبغات شعر تسريحات شعر صبغات الوان لشعر تسريحات روعه لشعر
قصات شعر قصات للشعر الطويل قصات للشعر القصير قصات 2009 للشعر
قصات شعر للصبايات قصات جديده لشعر البنات‏
تسريحات سهره تسريحات الشعر المرفوع تسريحات سهرات ~ تسريحات شعر طويل
صور تسريحات شعر للأطفال تسريحات للمدارس تسريحات أطفال 2009
تسريحات للجامعه ، تسريحات للمدارس ، تسريحات بنات الجامعه ، تسريحة شعر للجامعه ، تسريحات شعر للجامعه
مكياج عيون , ميك آب عيون , صور مكياج عيون , صور أحلى مكياج عيون , جديد مكياج العيون ,
طريقة عمل مكياج عيون خفيف بثلاث الوان بالصور.
مكياج الاعلاميه حليمه بولند 2009 مكياج حليمه بولند خليجي 2009 مكياج حليمه بولند لبناني 2009
طرح اسبنش لفات طرح 2009 لفات طرح الاسبنش لفات طرح للمتحجبات
تسريحات تسريحات للبنوتات تسريحات للسهره للبنوتات تسريحات روعه تسريحات 2010 تسريحات للاطفال‏
وصفه لتطويل الشعر بسبوع وصفه جديده وصفه لشعر‏
تسريحات تسريحات روعه تسريحات جديده تسريحات رائعه تسريحات ناعمه تسريحات 2010‏
طريقة عمل تسريحات البنوتات بالصور , تسريحات بنوتات , خطوات تسريحات للبنوتات , تسريحات بالصور .
حنا خليجي حنا عربي حنا 2009‏
مكياج أحمد القبيسي مكياج روعه صور مكياج‏
خلطات لتسمين الوجه خلطات لتبيض الوجه خلطات للوجه خلطات حلوه خلطات رووعه‏
مكياج جديد ,مكياج 2010 ,مكياج روعه ,مكياج خبيره التجميل امنه الظاهري ,مكياج عرائس ,مكياج رائع ,مكياج جميل جدا
تسريحات طوني مندلق تسريحات للعروس جديدة تسريحات شعر العروس موضة 2009
صبغات شعر‏
احدث تسريحات ومكياج الفنانه الكويتيه مشاعل الزنكوي 2009 - 2010
تسريحات للمدارس تسريحات للجامعات تسريحات ناعمه تسريحات بسيطه تسريحات 2009
تسريحات جديده , تسريحات للحفلات ,تسريحات فخمه ,تسريحات 2009
صور تسريحات حليمه بولند روووعه
مكياج روعة , مكياج خيال , مكياج جنان , مكياج خطير , مكياج للبنات , مكياج للبنوتات , مكياج لمراة , مكياج للعرائس , مكياج انيق , مكياج راقي
انواع الزمام اشكال الزمام اشكال الزمام الروعة زمام 2009
صور قصات شعر, قصات جديده للشعر , أحدث القصات , قصات الشعر 2009 .
شرح طريقة تنعيم الشعر خطوه بخطوه بالصور , طريقة سشوار الشعر بالصور , طريقة استخدام مكواة السيراميك بالصور .
خلطات خاصه للعرايس ، خلطات للعروسه ، خلطات للعروسات ، خلطات للعروسة‏
تسريحات خياليه , تسريحات جديده , تسريحات للعروس , تسريحات للأفراح , تسريحات نعومه .
تسريحات رومانيه 2009 صور التسريحات الرومانيه تسريحات روعه 2009
قصات للشعر الطويل قصات للشعر القصير قصه فكتوريا قصات 2009 قصات 2009 للشعر
مكياج عيون , أحلى مكياج عيون , ميك آب عيون , ميكاج عيون خليجي ولبناني ,جديد مكياج العيون 2009

لعبة سلاحف النينجا TMNT 2 Battle Nexus تحميل لعبة سلاحف النينجا TMNT 2 Battle Nexus
لعبة من سيربح المليون ، تحميل لعبة من سيربح المليون ، العاب ذكاء وأسأله ، من سيربح المليون
لعبة ماريو ، تحميل لعبة Super Mario 64 1.2 ، تحميل لعبة ماريو
تحميل العاب psp ((مجانا)) وأيضا تستطيع تحميل العاب (pc-ps2-wii-xbox360)
العاب بنات العاب مكياج العاب ميك اب لعبة المكياج العاب بنات المكياج العاب بنات2009
لعبة ماتريكس تنزيل لعبة ماتريكس تحميل لعبة ماتريكس لعبة Matrix تحميل لعبة Matrix تنزيل لعبة Matrix
لعبة حروف وألوف بحجم 447 كيلو بايت بس روعة
لعبة الديكور المنزلي تحميل لعبة الديكور المنزلي لعبة home sweet home‏
لعبة لعبة سيمبسون تحميل لعبة Simpsons تنزيل لعبة Simpsons‏
لعبة كريزى تاكسى ، تحميل لعبة كريزى تاكسى ، العاب كريزى تاكسى ، كريزى تاكسى
لعبة Pet Pals Animal Doctor تحميل لعبة Pet Pals Animal Doctor للكمبيوتر
لعبة IGI 2 - Covert Strike تحميل لعبة IGI 2 - Covert Strike
لعبة بلياردو تحميل لعبة Billiard حمل بلياردو لعبة Billiard‏
لعبة light driver 2 تحميل لعبة light driver 2 للكمبيوتر
لعبة درايفر تحميل Driver 76 تنزيل لعبة Driver 76 تحميل لعبة درايفر سيارات
لعبة يوغي تحميل لعبة يوغي للكمبيوتر لعبة يوغي للكمبيوتر
لعبة علاء الدين تنزيل لعبة علا الدين تحميل لعبة علا الدين تنزيل علاء الدين
لعبة Miami Nights Singles In The City ، تحميل لعبة Miami Nights Singles In The City‏
لعبة سونيك تحميل لعبة Sonic Rivals 2 تنزيل لعبة سونيك لعبة Sonic Rivals 2
لعبة باب الحارة ، تحميل لعبة باب الحارة ، لعبة conter.strike ، تحميل لعبة conter.strike
لعبة دراغون بول تحميل لعبة Dragon Ball تنزيل لعبة دراغون بول لعبة Dragon Ball‏
تحميل لعبة spiderman 2 تنزيل لعبة الرجل العنكبوت لعبة spiderman 2 الرجل العنكبوت
لعبة بيبسي مان تحميل لعبة بيبسي مان لعبة بيبسي مان للبلاي ستيشن ، لعبة Pepsi Man ، تحمل لعبة Pepsi Man ، Pepsi Man
اكبر مكتبة العاب Pc 2009 , اكبر مكتبة العاب Pc للتحميل ، اكبر مكتبة العاب Pc 2009 لتحميل مباشر
لعبة وزنك ذهب ، وزنك ذهب ، تحميل لعبة وزنك ذهب ، العاب أسأله ، العاب ذكاء
لعبة توم وجيري تحميل لعبة توم وجيري لعبة Tom And Jerry تحميل لعبة Tom And Jerry
تنزيل لعبة Pro Evolution Soccer 5 تحميل لعبة Pro Evolution Soccer 5 للكمبيوتر
لعبة Real Football 2008 تحميل لعبة Real Football 2008 العاب كرة قدم
تحميل لعبة سبايدر مان 3 تنزيل لعبة Spiderman 3 تنزيل لعبة سبابدر مان 3
العاب كمبيوتر - لعبة Diner Dash 3 تحميل لعبة Diner Dash 3
Live for speed ، 2009 Live for speed الاصــدار x10 مع الكــراك ، العاب Live for speed ] الاصــدار x10 مع الكــراك 2009
لعبة روبن هود ، تحميل لعبة روبن هود ، لعبة Robin Hood ، تحميل لعبة Robin Hood ، Robin Hood ، روبن هود
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