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Whoopsie: Howard Dean Admits Tort Reform Not in Bill Because Drafters "Did Not Want to Take on Trial Lawyers;" "That is the Plain and Simple Truth. That's the Truth."

Odd that everyone has to sacrifice except the Democrats' biggest donors.

Posted by: Ace at 12:27 PM



Comments

1 Lawyers need to eat, too!

Posted by: Truman at August 27, 2009 12:29 PM (e8YaH)

2 Funny, they are more afraid of frivolous lawsuit bearing trial lawyers, but the American voter can eat shit.

Ok

Posted by: MelodicMetal at August 27, 2009 12:31 PM (weVyN)

3

Think about it.  If tort reform was ever passed, how could big shot lawyers like John Edwards ever afford to live in big houses and have illegitimate children? 

Could we as a society bear that cost of lawyers not being able to afford the big lifestyle?  Could we?!?!

Posted by: Kratos (on the back of Gaia, scaling Mt Olympus) at August 27, 2009 12:32 PM (9hSKh)

4 In other news, the sky is blue, the sun WILL set sometime tonite, and michael jackson is still dead.

Posted by: aimsworth at August 27, 2009 12:32 PM (COlx6)

5 Alinsky rule number....??????

The right now has its enemy.....It is clean too...not racist etc. not personal......

We Want Tort Reform
repeated  8 zillion times at every tea party...
and townhall...


Posted by: free at August 27, 2009 12:33 PM (cFwGO)

6

So the trial lawyers have pictures of some prominent dems acting out fantasies with unicorns.

 

Thanks for letting us know.

Posted by: booter at August 27, 2009 12:33 PM (eimUK)

7 Lawyers need to eat, too!

And the must eat well.  Not to mention name brand booze and $1K a night hookers.

Posted by: Paladin at August 27, 2009 12:34 PM (2X4q0)

8 How much more of this does the electorate have to swallow before it leads to political violence?  I find myself asking that question now about once a day.

Posted by: Christopher Calandro at August 27, 2009 12:35 PM (JdbYk)

9

Trial lawyers make up the majority of congress, that is why there will never be any meaningful tort reform in ANY venue.

Posted by: Vic at August 27, 2009 12:35 PM (CDUiN)

10

I have this strange desire to by some Chocolate Uggs.  Wonder why.

And, finally, a bit of honesty coming from a Dem. Too bad it will not see the light of day in the MSM.

Posted by: Richtard at August 27, 2009 12:36 PM (Qrjpn)

11 Finally, someone is looking after me and my honorable friends in the plaintiff bar!

Posted by: John Edwards at August 27, 2009 12:37 PM (iTt2X)

12 God bless your big fat mouth Howie, ya big hunka sexy Democrat beefcake, ya.

Posted by: Wm T Sherman at August 27, 2009 12:37 PM (w41GQ)

13 I wouldn't mind seeing more doctors in political office, not necessarily Dean, but more doctors and other professionals taking a shot instead of lawyers.  Imagine having actual accountants or finance professionals on the budget committees, an armed services committee with a couple of retired colonels or a retired E9 nurse on it, or an engineer tearing through the details of a bill, line by line.

And as a bonus, they aren't professionally trained to kiss ass and watch what they say - so we get moments like this.

Posted by: Jean at August 27, 2009 12:37 PM (xCBQ4)

14 And if the questioner had been a poor, elderly minority person, who (according to Mr. Moran) would be unable to obtain a photo ID, that question could not have been asked....

But at least the person could have voted for Mr. Moran, without such an unduly burdensome requirement.

Posted by: notropis at August 27, 2009 12:38 PM (26SG7)

15 Democrats and the truth? Yikes!

Posted by: TheQuietMan at August 27, 2009 12:38 PM (1Jaio)

16 Funny, I was discussing Obamacare with my neurologist a couple of days ago, and he's got a serious case of buyer's remorse.  All I could think was, I'm trusting the judgment of someone who voted for Obama to make decisions about my medical care?!

Posted by: Alice H at August 27, 2009 12:38 PM (qJHYy)

17

The demwads have become on of the largest and  most corrupt piles of human shit ever stacked on this earth.  It's simply sickening, and maybe what is worse, the media turds who go right along with them.  They are pushing us to the limit, and something is going to snap.  Wake the fuck up Americans, befor it's too late. 

Posted by: Sparky at August 27, 2009 12:39 PM (J1f2W)

18 How well known is it that there are more lawyers in America than policemen?  Just as robbers steal from banks because thats where the money is, people become lawyers because that what the corrupt and lazy do.

Posted by: Thomas Jackson at August 27, 2009 12:40 PM (B8gqF)

19

If you want to know who gave Lawyers a bad name, the Trial Lawyers lobby would be a very good start.

/Have you been injured by a big rig? How 'bout a medicine. OK, a surgeon? No? Ever hear of asbestos?

Posted by: maddogg at August 27, 2009 12:40 PM (OlN4e)

20 Dean responded by saying: The reason tort reform is not in the [health care] bill is because the people who wrote it did not want to take on lose all the money that the trial lawyers give us to make laws that make them rich in addition to everybody else they were taking on.  And thats the plain and simple truth.

FIFH

Posted by: rockhead at August 27, 2009 12:41 PM (RykTt)

21

#19

One's gotta love those lawyer commericals, trolling for clients.

Posted by: Kratos (on the back of Gaia, scaling Mt Olympus) at August 27, 2009 12:41 PM (9hSKh)

22 Why does this song come to mind?

Posted by: alexthechick at August 27, 2009 12:43 PM (SHHaV)

23

Howard Dean is a filthy tonsil-stealing, foot-chopping Doctor, Ace.

Sheesh, do I have to point out every single inconvenient truth?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 27, 2009 12:44 PM (B+qrE)

24

In an ideal world there would be only two kinds of lawyers; ones who specialize in contract law for business (transactional) and criminal law.  There would be no trial lawyers and especially no scum bag class action specialists who advertise on TV.

Posted by: Vic at August 27, 2009 12:44 PM (CDUiN)

25 Bingo.  I thank Howard Dean for making the ultimate anti-healthcare commercial.  If the GOP doesn't have this running by tonight they are idiots.  Don't skip the part where Moran asks for the guys ID.  I would include a subtle subtitle saying something like "What the FUCK!  This asshole thinks he has the authority to ask for the ID of a citizen who DARES to question him?"  Even someone as stupid as Moran realized that fuck up.

Posted by: dan in michigan at August 27, 2009 12:47 PM (88w67)

26

Well, eight years of failed poli--- . . .

( . . . wait, is that even relevant? So what if it isn't? . . . )

Eight years of failed policies! If the Republicans had their way, . . .

Posted by: FireHorse at August 27, 2009 12:47 PM (a2H6z)

27 Governor Dean misspoke.

Posted by: Obama Administration Spokesperson at August 27, 2009 12:47 PM (fxgRI)

28 Alex, I want to see pics of you above the knee, or else it didn't happen

Posted by: Truman at August 27, 2009 12:47 PM (e8YaH)

29 This should be a "Flaming Skull"

Posted by: Scott at August 27, 2009 12:48 PM (/vyvP)

30 In an ideal world there would be only two kinds of lawyers; ones who specialize in contract law for business (transactional) and criminal law.  There would be no trial lawyers

Ohhh what the hell, I can use a distraction - so you don't think there should be any type of recovery for tort at all?  In other words, when some jackass blows a red light and slams into you, you shouldn't be able to sue him?  Or do you mean that there should be some other format than the civil litigation system?

I'm honestly asking, I'm not (just) being bitchy.  I've heard this before and I understand, believe me, where the impulse comes from to get rid of civil litigation.  I'm always curious as to what would be in its place. 

Posted by: alexthechick at August 27, 2009 12:48 PM (SHHaV)

31 That was taken out of context!

Posted by: FireHorse at August 27, 2009 12:48 PM (a2H6z)

32 Moran and Dean are douchebags of the highest degree.. 

that's about all I can add.

Posted by: Dave C at August 27, 2009 12:49 PM (La0Tt)

33 There ought to be a tort cap based upon real damages and it ought to be a loser-pays system... other than that, anybody ought to be able to sue anybody at any time for any thing.

Posted by: Truman at August 27, 2009 12:49 PM (e8YaH)

34

In other words, when some jackass blows a red light and slams into you, you shouldn't be able to sue him? 

Yes, you should.  Just not for the combined gross national products of all of Central America.  Give or take Belize.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 27, 2009 12:52 PM (B+qrE)

35

AIS / LMBC / OBVSLY that was taken out of context.

(I'm trying out my Obamacons for as I said and let me be clear.)

Posted by: FireHorse at August 27, 2009 12:53 PM (a2H6z)

36 Agreed on the Skull..

I can't believe they won't take on the lawyers...

Can you imagine how much money would be saved on that ALONE?

For crying out loud, lawyers are the main reason HC costs what it does.

I don't hate all lawyers.  Some do good and actually protect us from some asshole companies that do exist, but for the most part IMHO they are defenders of the stupid.  "Well the package didn't SAY to unwrap the slice of cheese before eating it"

There should be a HUGE fine for frivolous lawsuits.

Posted by: MelodicMetal at August 27, 2009 12:53 PM (weVyN)

37

If Howard Dean really told the truth:

The Democrat party is a wholly owned and operated subsidiary of the ABA and the ATLA.

Posted by: huerfano at August 27, 2009 12:53 PM (knHvu)

38

What's that you say?

You need a Cat. 5 hurricane right up the Potomac?

Why I'd be happy to!

Posted by: Intertropical Convergence Zone at August 27, 2009 12:54 PM (hKtiw)

39 Tomorrow Howie will deny he ever said that.

Posted by: GarandFan at August 27, 2009 12:56 PM (qKTIT)

40 Hmm, the admin clearly needs a Mis-Spokesperson Czar.

Posted by: Dang Straights at August 27, 2009 12:56 PM (Haq+B)

41 That's AIHAS, FireHorse.....

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 27, 2009 12:56 PM (B+qrE)

42 Looking ahead: If someone dies of cancer because he was diagnosed too late because the government forbade the hospital from running one of those expensive tests, the family can still sue the hospital, right?

Posted by: FireHorse at August 27, 2009 12:56 PM (a2H6z)

43 I'm always curious as to what would be in its place. 

Posted by: alexthechick at August 27, 2009 12:48 PM (SHHaV)


Duels

Posted by: Farmer at August 27, 2009 12:57 PM (oq6LC)

44

That's AIHAS, FireHorse.....

Check.

Posted by: FireHorse at August 27, 2009 12:57 PM (a2H6z)

45

Ohhh what the hell, I can use a distraction - so you don't think there should be any type of recovery for tort at all? 

 

No I did not say that.  Laws should be written to be simple. If someone feels they have been wronged they go down and explain it to a judge (or other arbitrator). The one who supposedly did the wrong would explain his/her side of the story. The judge would decide.

 

Think Wapner/Judy etc here.

 

Oh, and loser pays court costs.

Posted by: Vic at August 27, 2009 12:57 PM (CDUiN)

46

Governor Dean misspoke.  

 

 

Nah, he was quoted out of context

Posted by: Vic at August 27, 2009 12:58 PM (CDUiN)

47 These people look like they are losing.  They ID card thing was really offensive.  Health Care affects all Americans anyway, but boy it backfires when you challenge the basic honestly of someone who came all that way and dealt with all that horseshit just to ask a question.

Yeah, he was mad.  Why would that make him a fraud?  Everyone on both sides are pretty pissed off.  Dean was honest, and I appreciate it.  Not sure he was thinking straight, but that was the honest truth and that's a good thing.

Posted by: Tamale Ranger at August 27, 2009 01:02 PM (HlHsw)

48

Duels

Absolute CLASSIC moron quick response humor right there.

I love this place.

But don't touch me.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 27, 2009 01:03 PM (B+qrE)

49

um, seriously, can we wait a while for tort reform?  my wife needs a little while to go private and then start making the huge bucks from lawsuits.

after about 10 million, then go for it.  some of us actually need a beach house in italy for retirement.

thanks

Posted by: navycopjoe at August 27, 2009 01:07 PM (1L7oi)

50 Afraid to take on one of the Dems big-time donor groups?  Not afraid to take on the wishes of average, working Americans and those who have spent their lives working and are now trying to enjoy retirement?  Who'da thunk it?

Posted by: Reiver at August 27, 2009 01:07 PM (Yi1Sk)

51 Lawyers have to provide for their families too - just like Latrell Sprewell.

Posted by: scooter (still not libby) at August 27, 2009 01:07 PM (aamim)

52

In other words, when some jackass blows a red light and slams into you, you shouldn't be able to sue him? 

 

The problem with our current system is in a lot of cases, particularly if the guy running the red light has no insurance, job, or other monetary goods he is not the one being sued.  The lawyers in State legislatures have got this rigged partial liability scam set up to where anyone who can be shown to have the slightest bit of perceived fault in the accident can also be sued and made to bear the who brunt of the accident.

 

So lets say Mr. Red light runner caused an accident and he was driving a Ford F-150. The lawyer hauls his ass to court and because he has no money they haul in Ford Motor company as well. They attempt to show that the Ford truck was more apt to run red lights because there were more red light runners in F-150s (probably a true fact because there are more F-150s on the road than any other vehicle).

 

On top of that they go for pain/suffering, medical, loss of wages, and the killerpunitive damages (which IMO is unconstitutional).   If they can get a good enough sucker they will try to get class action status. Ford will most likely settle out of court even though they had NOTHING to do with it.

Posted by: Vic at August 27, 2009 01:08 PM (CDUiN)

53

52  hang on vic, let me copy all that down

idiot driver.....ford....settle out of court for beach house.....

okay, gotta call the wife

Posted by: navycopjoe at August 27, 2009 01:12 PM (1L7oi)

54

A slogan for challengers for every political seat in 2010...Repub or Dem:

"LAWYERS NEED NOT APPLY!!!"

Citizens who speak in common language, with common sense, need to take back the government.  They can craft legislation, give their clear intent, and then pay lawyers to write it up to match that intent.

The President and Dems have most recently tried to make their case off class envy, making it "us" against "them", them being evil rich tax-payers (where the extra tax $$ will come from), evil rich doctors (who apparently charge too much), evil drug companies (who apparently charge too much), and evil insurance companies (evil middlemen who deny care to fatten their pocketbooks).  What they seem to have forgotten, is that Joe Public hates politicians and lawyers even more.  We need to play hardball.

Posted by: MostlyRight at August 27, 2009 01:22 PM (JLpuP)

55

#39

He probably won't wait until tomorrow to say he "misspoke".

Posted by: hippieforlife at August 27, 2009 01:23 PM (sGtp+)

56 Ohhh what the hell, I can use a distraction - so you don't think there should be any type of recovery for tort at all?  In other words, when some jackass blows a red light and slams into you, you shouldn't be able to sue him? 

I'll take your challenge.  First, I don't sue.  Somebody else sues.  I just pay for the lawsuits.  Real people don't sue.  We just don't.  When real people fall off a ladder, they don't sue, even though there is some lawyer who will take the case.

Chances are 99.99/100 that if a guy slams into me, he won't have enough money to pay the first medical bill (inflated by torts).

And even if I do sue, I don't get anything out of it, it's the lawyers who get rich.  The lawyers always get rich.  Torts are an extortion racket.  Lawyer A sues.  Lawyer B defends the suit.  Lawyer C presides over the trial or arbitrates.  That's at least 3 lawyers getting rich, assuming no immediate settlement.

Meanwhile, I pay insane prices for insurance, for ladders, for pools all because one guy in one place sued and he and his lawyer won the jackpot.  Or worse, it was a class-action lawsuit in which the clients each get a book of coupons and the lawyers get to build Edwards-mansions.

I am not saying that the total elimination of torts is the optimal solution, but for nearly every single American, it is a better solution than what we have now.

A better solution would be:
(1) loser pays: right now the lawyers who benefit are those who take highly risky cases against very wealthy opponents.  The law of probability says at least one of them will be a jackpot.  In loser pays, tort lawyers take slam-dunk cases only.
(2) severe caps on punitive damages: excessive punitive damages violate the 8th amendment to the Constitution.
(3) restrictions on class-action lawsuits: the average lawyer cannot make more than the average client, for example.

What is most galling, though, is that lawyers defend the tort system but don't make themselves subject to it.  Every lost case should have a lawyer in fear that he will be sued for incompetence.  But the bar for that is so high, you have to be a pole vaulter to get over it.  Instead, a losing tort lawyer shrugs his shoulders and moves on to the next mark...uh, client.

Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 01:24 PM (FWbHu)

57 Vic - I'm sorry, I should have been clearer, I really am interested in alternatives.  I'm actually agnostic on the issue of tort reform.  I do think there are abuses to the system but I do think that there should be *some* type of civil recompense system.  Your points are well taken.

Looking ahead: If someone dies of cancer because he was diagnosed too late because the government forbade the hospital from running one of those expensive tests, the family can still sue the hospital, right?

Look!  Someone hit a hot button for me!  Hold on, hold on, I need the taller soapbox for this one.  Let's walk this through - the suit in that case would be against the person/entities that did not approve/provide the required test (for purposes of this bitching hypothetical we will assume the test was clearly indicated and would have caught the cancer).  So, one of the parties would be the public plan by whatever name known.

As a federal government actor, the plan would enjoy sovereign immunity.  Sovereign immunity is waived for only certain areas under the Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA).  The FTCA does permit suit for malpractice.  But suit cannot be brought for the exercise of a discretionary function.

In this scenario, the suit isn't actually for malpractice.  It's for the improper refusal to permit the test.  Absent an explicit amendment to the FTCA to permit such suits, it is my firm opinion that the plan would enjoy protection for such refusal.  After all, the determination as to how to spend public monies is a discretionary function.  It's also highly likely that the entire process by which such treatment guidelines were made would be deemed to be an administrative function for which the plan would enjoy immunity.  It's also highly likely that the hospital itself would be deemed to be a public actor in this case.  End result?  Judgment on the pleadings or summary judgment granted to the plan.

Why, yes, this is something that concerns me, yes it is.  I want there to be some type of accountability for the decisions made by the public plan.  Using past performance as an indicator of future results, there won't be. 

Posted by: alexthechick at August 27, 2009 01:31 PM (SHHaV)

58

Using past performance as an indicator of future results, there won't be. 

Remember that I specified under ideal conditions. The government taking over healthcare falls under worst case conditions. The government very rarely allows itself to be held accountable at the Federal level. (and congress never).

Posted by: Vic at August 27, 2009 01:36 PM (CDUiN)

59 I am not saying that the total elimination of torts is the optimal solution, but for nearly every single American, it is a better solution than what we have now.

I think those are fair criticisms.  I'm noticing that people don't really want the court system to go away, per se, but rather are seeking restrictions on awards.  I'm sorry if I'm misrepresenting anyone, I'm just trying to synthesize what the positions are. 

What about the idea of raising the monetary caps on small claims court actions?  Let's go back to jackass who runs the red light.  I'm not hurt but my new car is totaled.  My payout from my insurance leaves me $10,000 short on the loan due to depreciation, etc.  Here, that's over the magistrate's limit so I'd have to go to regular court.  I'm in favor of raising the limits to say $25,000 or so.


Posted by: alexthechick at August 27, 2009 01:38 PM (SHHaV)

60 Amen.  "Using past performance as an indicator of future results," when you're speaking of most of the efforts of the modern Federal Gov. (save the military & some few other things) there will be a whole lot of need for "accountability for the decisions made by the public plan."

Posted by: iamfelix at August 27, 2009 01:43 PM (Ce51o)

61 So let me see if I understand this correctly...

Democrats have AT EVERY TURN resisted any form of photo identification to VOTE. But if one of us morons wants to ask his royal highness a question, we had better be prepared to hand it over?

Am I getting that right?

The absolute, unmitigated GALL of these people just floors me.

Posted by: Paradigm Shift at August 27, 2009 01:45 PM (D7UaL)

62

Which that last little bit also brings up another soap box.  Government accountability. If the law is at fault, there is no accountability. If some official with the government (mostly at local level) is at fault the local government (read taxpayer) is held accountable.

 

Some dork working as a sheriffs deputy performs an outrageous act and someone sues him. They dont collect from him, they collect from the taxpayer.

Posted by: Vic at August 27, 2009 01:47 PM (CDUiN)

63

What about the idea of raising the monetary caps on small claims court actions?  Let's go back to jackass who runs the red light.  I'm not hurt but my new car is totaled.  My payout from my insurance leaves me $10,000 short on the loan due to depreciation, etc. 

 

If you go by what I was saying everything would be handled like a small claims court. E.g. there would be no cap to raise.

Posted by: Vic at August 27, 2009 01:49 PM (CDUiN)

64

Democrats have AT EVERY TURN resisted any form of photo identification to VOTE. But if one of us morons wants to ask his royal highness a question, we had better be prepared to hand it over?

 

That is ironic isnt it?

Posted by: Vic at August 27, 2009 01:50 PM (CDUiN)

65 I never could bring myself to hate Mad Howard. He's not a phony; and he says what he thinks most of the time. His comments are fresh air after one takes in the methane emissions from Obama, Kerry, Reid and so on and on.

Posted by: David Ross at August 27, 2009 01:52 PM (GwV+j)

66 Let's go back to jackass who runs the red light.  I'm not hurt but my new car is totaled.  My payout from my insurance leaves me $10,000 short on the loan due to depreciation, etc.

My brother got hit about a year ago.  It was the other guy's fault.  The guy had insurance -- sort of -- it was his mom's car and she had bare minimum insurance.

Apparently it didn't cover the damage to my brother's car.  (Both drivers were fine physically.)  I don't know how that coverage works, but it did.  Suffice it to say, the guy at fault lives in his mom's trailer, drives his mom's car and doesn't have a job.

How much, exactly, was my brother going to get?

I'd use another hypothetical because if you do get hit by a car, the probability is very high that you either get nothing or an insurance settlement.

Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 01:52 PM (FWbHu)

67 If you go by what I was saying everything would be handled like a small claims court. E.g. there would be no cap to raise.

We're talking two different caps - different courts have jurisdiction over different things.  Small claims courts usually have a cap of around $5-10,000.  Anything over that goes to the next higher level of court.  It's actually a bit difficult to discuss on a national level since every state has different court structures.  Hell, even within the state, there's differences.  For example, larger cities usually have a designated traffic court while small towns everyone gets hauled in front of the judge. 

Posted by: alexthechick at August 27, 2009 01:54 PM (SHHaV)

68 I'm noticing that people don't really want the court system to go away, per se, but rather are seeking restrictions on awards.

Yes, and somehow stopping a-hole lawyers from ruining regular citizens' lives through frivolous law suits (e.g. suing a dry cleaner out of business for a non-missing pair of pants).

Posted by: rockhead at August 27, 2009 01:56 PM (RykTt)

69 Hold it, hold it!   What happened?  Are the business guys/gals vilified enough and now ti is time to move on to the lawyers?

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 01:57 PM (p302b)

70 This is a painful thread to read.


Amish Dude, torts don't inflate medical bills.  Period.  And all types of people sue.  And all of them want whatever they can get.  The lawyer has no power to make a client seek more than they want to take.  ANY offer must be communicated to the client and the client has the sole authority to accept, counter, or decline the offer.  Period.

The people that really suffer from tort reform are the injured claimants.  I have no problem with punitive damage limits (we basically don't have them in Washington to begin with), but general damages limits harm injured people. 

If you trust juries to decide guilt in a criminal case, how can you not trust them to ascribe liability in a tort? 




Posted by: seattle slough at August 27, 2009 01:58 PM (H5l9d)

71

We're talking two different caps - different courts have jurisdiction over different things. 

 

Youre missing my point. ALL tort cases would be handled like small claims court.

Posted by: Vic at August 27, 2009 01:59 PM (CDUiN)

72
alexthechick, thank you for your posting (#57): it was most informative.

Damn, the more I look at Chappaquiddicare, the worse it becomes.

Posted by: Brown Line at August 27, 2009 01:59 PM (VrNoa)

73 Not for anything but if you limit the awards in malparactice suits you are hurting the people who were wronged.   Maybe you should simply limit the amount of money the attorney can earn based on a percentage of the award.

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:00 PM (p302b)

74 I think that medical malpractice lawyers should have (technical) medical training.

Posted by: blackrockmarauder at August 27, 2009 02:00 PM (GvgvT)

75 A lot of malpractice attorneys are doctors too

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:02 PM (p302b)

76 75 A lot of malpractice attorneys are doctors too

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:02 PM (p302b)

A "lot"?  Is John Edwards a doctor?  Has his "work" led to an increase in medical costs?

Posted by: blackrockmarauder at August 27, 2009 02:03 PM (GvgvT)

77 small claims court is a circus.  the wronged person usually doesn't have the court connections of the party they are suing, nor the counsel. 

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:03 PM (p302b)

78

Apparently it didn't cover the damage to my brother's car. 

 

That doesnt make sense. If he had insurance it should have covered your brothers car up to the amount they had in the policy. Any insurance covers liability and the typical minimum is 25K. So it would pay out up to 25K. (SC minimum 25/50/25)

Posted by: Vic at August 27, 2009 02:03 PM (CDUiN)

79 Posted by: blackrockmarauder at August 27, 2009 02:03 PM (GvgvT)

He is the exception, not the rule.

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:04 PM (p302b)

80 79 Posted by: blackrockmarauder at August 27, 2009 02:03 PM (GvgvT)

He is the exception, not the rule.

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:04 PM (p302b)

In your opinion are the exceptions driving up costs exceptionally?

Posted by: blackrockmarauder at August 27, 2009 02:06 PM (GvgvT)

81

Not for anything but if you limit the awards in malparactice suits you are hurting the people who were wronged.   

 

 

I have NEVER seen a tort reform proposal that would limit the amount recovered for actual damages and not very many that would limit pain and suffering other than making some kind of standard amount with a cap for various injuries.

 

Most tort reform has sought to limit punitive damages and eliminate jackpot suits.

Posted by: Vic at August 27, 2009 02:07 PM (CDUiN)

82 Posted by: blackrockmarauder at August 27, 2009 02:06 PM (GvgvT)

What is driving up healthcare cost is the fact that the art of medicine has been lost.  CYA has become the new normal.  So, if that means many many extra tests, they feel they have no choice. 

Health Insurance companies have absolutely nothing to do with malpractice coverage and awards.

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:08 PM (p302b)

83 Amish Dude, torts don't inflate medical bills.  Period. 

Well, that ends the discussion then.  I assume that malpractice insurance is $0.

According to the tort law theory I read from lawyers, there shouldn't be malpractice insurance because injured people sue bad, evil doctors.  In which case, they shouldn't be practicing.  But malpractice insurance means that you can continue to practice.  Ergo, non-incompetent doctors are being sued.

BTW, why don't lawyers subject themselves to this system.  How many lawyers get sued?

And all types of people sue. 

Most people don't.  But we all pay for it.  Just because all you see are law clients doesn't mean that constitutes the whole world.  If the world were run by ER nurses, then we'd be required to wear motorcycle helmets all the time, even to bed.

And all of them want whatever they can get.  The lawyer has no power to make a client seek more than they want to take.

Yeah, I know how that works.  I've seen Monty Hall.
 
"Do you want the money or do you want what's in the box?  Oh, you stupid, there's nothing in the box."

But the lawyer isn't going to take a case if there isn't a big-pockets opponent.  Does a class-action lawyer even have to consult a client?

The more interesting question to me is how many times are lawyers sued?  Do you know?

Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 02:09 PM (FWbHu)

84 Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 02:09 PM (FWbHu)

Amish Dude, if you go to the hairdresser and she/he burns your scalp when dying your hair and you cannot regrow that hair then you can sue your hairdresser for malpractice.

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:10 PM (p302b)

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Posted by: Christopher Taylor at August 27, 2009 02:12 PM (PQY7w)

86 Lawyers carry errors and omissions policies.  For Malpractice you have to have dr in front of your name (but not like college professor dr)

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:12 PM (p302b)

87 "CYA has become the new normal."

Really, how?

"Health Insurance companies have absolutely nothing to do with malpractice coverage and awards."

Yes, because the cost of litigation in no way factors into what insurance companies have to pay for medical treatment/procedures.

Posted by: blackrockmarauder at August 27, 2009 02:12 PM (GvgvT)

88

Hubby was on a federal case jury trial. The plaintiff (a German woman on vacation in the US) stated she'd been injured at a water park and was suing the park owners. A teenager had lodged himself in a tube on his turn, and when she went down after, she rammed into him. She had no permanent physical injuries, but claimed her sex life was ruined, and she had emotional issues now. She had to travel back here half a dozen times in order to pursue this suit. The jury deliberated, and half wanted to give her nothing, and the other half, well millions. In the end, they compromised on a quarter of a mil, which probably didn't cover her travel and initial doctors bills after her lawyer got his share.

The person running the ride was at fault perhaps, for not checking to see the kid had come through; the kid was at fault for being a stupid kid, but the park (which we all love to visit in the summer) should not be held responsible for and have to deal with such a frivolous suit. If she'd had any real injuries, they'd have settled out of court, and without as steep legal fees. That is what they have insurance for. And it's why insurance is so astronomic!

 

Posted by: NancyP at August 27, 2009 02:12 PM (lzz2P)

89 Maybe you should simply limit the amount of money the attorney can earn based on a percentage of the award.

That's the wrong idea.  Flat fee.  There should not be an incentive to seek out big money awards.

Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 02:13 PM (FWbHu)

90 Posted by: blackrockmarauder at August 27, 2009 02:12 PM (GvgvT)

There are a lot of articles on the web about how the system works.  I don't have time to explain it. 

There are separate companies for malpractice insurance.  They are not the companies who supply you with your health insurance.  Two entirely different animals in the forest.  The only relation being they are both insurance companies and subject to the rules of your state's department of insurance.

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:15 PM (p302b)

91 I am not bashing malpractice lawyers.

I just think that a few idiots may have more influence on the system than they should.

Posted by: blackrockmarauder at August 27, 2009 02:17 PM (GvgvT)

92 Amish Dude, if you go to the hairdresser and she/he burns your scalp when dying your hair and you cannot regrow that hair then you can sue your hairdresser for malpractice.

I'm not going to comment on the likelihood of hair dying, I'll just go with your for-instance.

Once again, I won't sue.  Bad things happen.  Unless the hairdresser tried it on purpose, what can I do?  Plus, how am I going to justify hiring an overpriced lawyer to sue some small business owner who probably is in debt up to her eyeballs?

If I am to get any damages at all, I'll have to sue, what, the dye company?  What kind of justice is that?  Well, that's the partial liability jackpot, in which nobody wins.

Try again.

Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 02:18 PM (FWbHu)

93 90 Posted by: blackrockmarauder at August 27, 2009 02:12 PM (GvgvT)

There are a lot of articles on the web about how the system works.  I don't have time to explain it. 

There are separate companies for malpractice insurance.  They are not the companies who supply you with your health insurance.  Two entirely different animals in the forest.  The only relation being they are both insurance companies and subject to the rules of your state's department of insurance.

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:15 PM (p302b)

I don't know where you got the impression that I don't know that.

I just find it hard to believe that some of the overhead from malpractice isn't passed on to the patient and his/her insurance company.

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95 86 Lawyers carry errors and omissions policies.

How many hundreds of thousands of dollars per year do they cost?

How many lawsuits are brought against lawyers for errors and omissions?  Give me the percentage as compared to malpractice suits

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96

NancyP 88: why did your husband concede the point that the plaintiff deserved anything?

He should have stood his ground IMO

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97 Posted by: blackrockmarauder at August 27, 2009 02:19 PM (GvgvT)

On some level it probably is but not to the extent that you think.

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:21 PM (p302b)

98 I just find it hard to believe that some of the overhead from malpractice isn't passed on to the patient and his/her insurance company

Of course you do.  It's basic economics.

Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 02:21 PM (FWbHu)

99

Seattle Slough in #70 writes: "Torts don't increase medical bills"  Deja moo--aka I've heard that BS before.

Defensive medicine--extra tests for fear of lawsuits sure as heck raises the total bill.

Greatly increased malpractice insurance premiums  inflate medical bills.  My wife's long time gynecologist here in Los Angeles no longer delivers babies. She used to; but the malpractice premiums for an obstetrics practice got so high that the good doc in effect said "screw it"--and restricted her practice to gynecology.  Our two daughters were born 40 years ago in San Diego--the total hospital and obstetrics bill for each birth was less than $500.  A birth in Los Angeles County today costs $20,000 or more.   

I spent thirty five years of my life as a practicing attorney; Seattle Slough's description of the client having sole power to accept, counter or decline the offer is nominally correct.  But some clients are powerfully influenced by what their lawyer tells them; to deny that is to deny reality.  This is particularly true in class action cases where the mass of the individual plaintiffs never see or talk to the lead attorney.

The real bogeyman here is that jurors  get seduced by shysters like John Edwards who can "channel" the inner thoughts of a dead four year old girl. A Southern California jury recently awarded $2 billion to the daughter of a deceased smoker. They decided to "punish" R.J. Reynolds for not printing stronger warning labels on  cigarette boxes.  Well excuse me--what industrial worker aged 50+ is going to make another $2 billion in earnings in his life?

The tort system creates a lottery effect---everybody thinks they're going to win the "jackpot" and expectations become unrealistic.

And yes I know that we trust these same 12 Post Office workers and county employees to sit on juries and decide whether an accused criminal is going to get convicted and get the death penalty or not. [The reverse "big casino" effect}.

But, relatively speaking, there are damned few murderers in the nation--and a great number of people receiving medical care--and paying more for it because of fear of malpractice lawsuits.

It may be time to move medical malpractice lawsuits in the direction of  the Worker's Compensation philosophy.  People who are injured get medical care and treatment--even life long medical care and treatment--without much concern about who is or was at fault for the injury.

But something is happening here--and it needs to be fixed--tort reform has to be included in any intelligent review of changing the health care system.

Posted by: Happy Fellow at August 27, 2009 02:22 PM (UHTK+)

100 You may think this is funny but they really need to put those older ladies (who sit in the back at your doctor's office and come out to say "where is your co pay" and then refuse to let you see the doctor until they have the co pay up front) in charge of health care.  Those ladies would leave no stone unturned and the costs would come right down.  Would you want to be a drug company or hospital or private physician getting a call from those bulldogs?

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:24 PM (p302b)

101 78

Apparently it didn't cover the damage to my brother's car. 

 

That doesnt make sense.

I know, I know.  It had something to do with the policy being on the car, not the driver.  It wasn't the driver's insurance, it was his mom's.

I don't get it either.  It didn't make sense to me.  All I know is that my brother's old Kia wasn't worth fixing.

Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 02:24 PM (FWbHu)

102 Youre missing my point. ALL tort cases would be handled like small claims court.

Well, I didn't so much miss your point as realize after I replied that you were talking about making a unified system.  Fair enough.


That's the wrong idea.  Flat fee.  There should not be an incentive to seek out big money awards.

Flat fees for everything or hourly rates or let it be a matter of contract between the client/lawyer with the exception of no contingency fee arrangement?  Again, I'm legitimately curious, not trying to be snarky.  For example, most (if not all) jurisdictions have restrictions on contingency fees in family law cases for public policy grounds so there's precedent for placing restrictions on fee agreements. 

Posted by: alexthechick at August 27, 2009 02:24 PM (SHHaV)

103 Posted by: alexthechick at August 27, 2009 02:24 PM (SHHaV)

do you know what a partner in a law firm charges per hour?

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:26 PM (p302b)

104 Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 02:24 PM (FWbHu)

something seems not right.  if the car was not fixable it should have been replaced.

Posted by: curious at August 27, 2009 02:27 PM (p302b)

105 I admit, alexthechick, I was being snarky.

One quick solution is that the lawyers' fees are set forth before the trial.  If the client happens to get a dumb jury that awards $2 million for hot coffee, the lawyer only gets the fees he asks for.

It's also likely to make a jury less sympathetic to insane awards if they know that the lawyer's getting a big cut.

Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 02:31 PM (FWbHu)

106 This one is a Spaulding approved Double Farts.

Dean admitting tort reform isn't in the bill because the authors didn't want to take on the trial lawyers.

And...better.

Congressman Jim Moran - one opposed to legislation that requires registered voters to provide photo identification at the polls - demanding one of his constituents prove he is one of his constituents.

Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at August 27, 2009 02:31 PM (GtYrq)

107 do you know what a partner in a law firm charges per hour?

Depends on where you are and what type of law and who the lawyer is.  I've seen fees over $1k per hour.

Posted by: alexthechick at August 27, 2009 02:32 PM (SHHaV)

108 104 Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 02:24 PM (FWbHu)

something seems not right.  if the car was not fixable it should have been replaced.

I know, I know.  First, it was an ancient car.  I think the total value of the car was around $1500.  Second, my brother filed some papers in court against the guy and the sheriff went to his trailer (my brother lives 1000 miles from me, and it was a while ago, so I don't remember the few details I was told).

Bottom line: my brother was out a $1500 car and the other guy's mom's insurance company wouldn't pay.

Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 02:35 PM (FWbHu)

109 I've seen fees over $1k per hour.

This is the problem.  This is exactly the problem.  Lawyers should be making approximately the same amount of money as an accountant.  Their roles in society are quite similar.

Posted by: AmishDude at August 27, 2009 02:37 PM (FWbHu)

110 c-span lists the backgrounds of the members of DC congress...

~45% of the House
~60% of the Senate

and of course, the VP and Prez

are lawyers. 

If there were that many professional soldiers in office, there would be cries of having a military junta.  So does this constitute a "lawyer junta"?  And lets not forget the military is much more respected (possibly the most respected profession), whereas lawyers are near the bottom.

Posted by: A.G. at August 27, 2009 02:41 PM (7a1cG)

111 Are we lawyer bashing?  Not really, but if they are writing the bills and they aren't reading the bills then why do we need lawyers as elected officials.  I'll take some grunts over lawyers any day of the week.  I trust my grunts to hire and fire the lawyers they need.

Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at August 27, 2009 03:25 PM (GtYrq)

112 yes, it is odd that everyone else has to sacrifice except the dems biggest donors. but if you recall, "...Some pigs are more equal then others..."

oh yeah, and as far as teddy-the murdering-drunk kennedy goes? well, we'll rip off another good quote...because being a liberal "...means never having to say you are sorry..."


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