Cheney's Long-Sought Docs: EITs Worked
Well of course they did. We have had confirmation on this from high-ranking CIA officers for years. Not sure what additional proof is to be found in the documents re-stating that evaluation, but at least one document has been released.The document is written with an eye to politics -- the authors do not want to stick a thumb in the eye of their Democratic clients. And so they hedge on the fundamental questions... up to a point. While hedging and claiming they can't know with 100% certainty how much intelligence is directly attributable to EITs, there doesn't seem to be much question that EITs loosened the tongues of the three waterboarded terrorists. Here's Hayes quoting from the report:
Let’s review. Abu Zubaydah gave up some information before the use of EITs. But “since the use of the waterboard…Abu Zubaydah has appeared to be cooperative,” and gave up even more intelligence. Al Nashiri provided mostly historical information in the short time before EITs were employed. “However, following the use of EITs, he provided information about his most current operational planning…” And “accomplished resistor” Khalid Shaykh Muhammad provided mostly useless information before the application of EITs. Afterwards, he “provided information that helped lead to the arrests of terrorists” – so much information, in fact, that he was regarded as the “most prolific” intelligence source. Reasonable people can – and do – disagree about the morality of using EITs. But only the most accomplished resister could continue to claim that they were not effective.But all liberals are in the "most accomplished resister" category. On FoxNews, Juan Williams, for example, handled this report by simply denying it, by insisting against the expert opinion of the CIA that we still don't know if waterboarding really worked, or if they intelligence they provided us with was "bad intelligence." As has been pointed out too many times to count, there is a genuine question here, a difficult philosophical one: Do the lives of innocents outweight the moral qualms of engaging in what would in other circumstances be morally objectionable behavior? Truth-denying members of the "community-based reality" are however determined to avoid that question and simply assert over and over, despite the evidence arrayed against them, that there is no trade-off here whatsoever, because "torture never works." It's a bitter irony that lefties are the ones forever complimenting themselves that they are nuanced thinkers concerned with substance and asking important questions, and that it's their opponents who can only conceive of the world in simplistic terms and bumper-sticker slogans. Torture Consists of Getting Cigar Smoke in Your Face: PowerLine discusses the EIT effectiveness report as well as the report on alleged interrogation abuses.
The two incidents deemed most serious were the threatening of Abd Al-Nashiri with a loaded handgun and with a power drill. As noted above, these threats were made (but not carried out) by a debriefer who was not trained or authorized to use enhanced interrogation techniques (the CIA distinguishes between debriefers and interrogators.) This same debriefer also threatened Al-Nashiri by saying that "We could get your mother in here." It is worth noting that he said he wanted Al-Nashiri to infer, based on the debriefer's accent and the threat that he made, that he (the debriefer) was from a Middle Eastern security service that has the reputation of using such tactics. The implication was that Al-Nashiri was well aware that the Americans would do no such thing. The same debriefer was also involved in a "ruse" where he and others tried to convince a detainee that they had shot another detainee, whose "body" the detainee was led past. This one individual accounts for a significant proportion of the improper interrogation techniques documented in the IG's report. Some of the misdeeds documented in the report border on the humorous, like the claim that interrogators "smoked cigars and blew smoke in Al-Nashiri's face during an interrogation." The horror!It's prosecutable torture to even threaten a terrorist. As
1 All that matters is that it worked f all others.
Posted by: MES41067 at August 25, 2009 12:04 PM (VmAoa)
2 Torture never works...which is why people keep using it. Makes sense to me.
Posted by: joncelli at August 25, 2009 12:05 PM (RD7QR)
3 Another Cheney take-down.
Posted by: shibumi at August 25, 2009 12:08 PM (OKZrE)
4 I sure miss VP Cheney.
Posted by: Date and time stamped at August 25, 2009 12:08 PM (16M6C)
5 "simplistic terms and bumper-sticker slogans"
sorta like "Bush lied, people died"?
Posted by: Roy at August 25, 2009 12:11 PM (cB77O)
6 I would love to see: "After EIT, suspect A provided information to prevent an attack planned for______ on the date of _____."
I guess that’s not realistic. But this is close:
He provided information that helped lead to the arrests of terrorists including Sayfullah Paracha and his son Uzair Paracha, businessmen who Khalid Shaykh Muhammad planned to use to smuggle explosives into the United States; Saleh Almari, a sleeper operative in New York; and Majid Khan, an operative who could enter the United States easily and was tasked to research attacks [redacted]. Khalid Shaykh Muhammad’s information also led to the investigation and prosecution of Iyman Faris, the truck driver arrested in early 2003 in Ohio.
BTW, Ace's link does not go directly to the Weekly Standarditem. This is the direct link.
Posted by: CJ at August 25, 2009 12:11 PM (9KqcB)
7 I recommend a little used persuasion technique for Juan Williams. It often involves thumbs andbolts or screws, depending upon the effect you wish to achieve. I expect he'd have a change ofheart pretty quickly.
Posted by: huerfano at August 25, 2009 12:11 PM (knHvu)
8 The real torture was the factthat they had Monica Lewinsky flown in to blow cigar smoke in their faces.
Posted by: Roy at August 25, 2009 12:13 PM (cB77O)
9 Defining torture down and put Americans in jail...it's what the Democrats are willing to do in order to score political points.
Posted by: DrewM. at August 25, 2009 12:14 PM (iTt2X)
10 I wonder how soon some numbnut sues the Government for SERE school training which seems to be much harsher than most of what these terrorists got in real life.
Posted by: CDR M at August 25, 2009 12:18 PM (JSetw)
11 Like so many of the tropes of the left, this is not an issue they have arrived at rationally.
Posted by: krakatoa at August 25, 2009 12:19 PM (P+oMN)
12 This same debriefer also threatened Al-Nashiri by saying that "We could get your mother in here."
Every woman who ever told a misbehaving brat "Just wait until your father comes home!" was commiting torture? Talk about defining a term down until it lacks all meaning.
(admittedly, that would get me to talk. Last thing I need is my mother bitching at me because I didn't blow up enough infidels.)
Posted by: HeatherRadish at August 25, 2009 12:19 PM (NtiET)
13 These are the same deep thinkers that previously brought us the "wall" between sharing information between the FBI and the CIA that contributed to the lack of intel and analysis in advance of 9/11.
Liberal Democrats simply cannot be trusted with national security because they are either (a) naive idealists who can't see the real world in front of their fucking faces, or (b) don't belive in America as it is today, enough to want to agressively defend it.
Pick one. Or, hell, maybe its both. Who knows?
Posted by: Fred at August 25, 2009 12:20 PM (gVdZN)
14 Were any Hispanics involved in compiling these documents? And what kind of name is "Ace", anyway? It sounds Hispanic to me. Not that I'm racist for asking these questions. I'm just curious.
Posted by: palin steele (the only non-partisan on AoSHQ) at August 25, 2009 12:20 PM (tcMQZ)
15 A brilliant poster said it yesterday ....
No problemo ... just deputize CIA interrogators as honorary Black Panthers. They can then do no wrong, since they're given free-pass by faux-blacks, Libs, Progressives and every other POS group that wants to bring down Amerikwa
Welcome to your future dhimmis
Posted by: Tim Robbins at August 25, 2009 12:21 PM (W9fmS)
16 i'm sure there will be parades for Cheney in 3...2...1...
I am also sure we will see this covered in the media, since they covered the first half of the documents when they were released at the beginning of the obama admin
Posted by: Ben at August 25, 2009 12:21 PM (wuv1c)
17 The quote from Aliens is misattributed to Hudson. I believe it was Frost, the black guy, who said that. He was the same guy who got stuck holding the ammo bag when they all disarmed.
Posted by: Glyph at August 25, 2009 12:22 PM (1Ilc0)
18 We need get that guy a medal.
Posted by: Jean at August 25, 2009 12:23 PM (xCBQ4)
yeah, maybe it was the other black guy
or perhaps it was Brian Dennehy
Posted by: Tweet Phillip Sousa at August 25, 2009 12:26 PM (jVldi)
20 Misquoting Aliens? Clip a corner from your Man Card, brother.
Posted by: IllTemperedCur at August 25, 2009 12:30 PM (btril)
21 I want our enemies to piss their pants at the mere thought of getting caught and *ahem* interrogated. I want a President who is capable of dispatching terrorists without one second of lost sleep. I want government officials who, instead of acting like scared little children at the thought of discomforting our sworn enemies, act like real patriots with the fortitude to exact punishment and retribution with more ruthlessness than the terrorists.
I ask again, who was really tortured? KSM or Daniel Pearl?
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at August 25, 2009 12:33 PM (ZGhSv)
22 Eric Holder: Terrified by harsh language...
That is the takeaway right? That simply speaking sharply to Eric Holder will force him to do anything you want, legal, normal, or not? As this constitutes "torture" for this pantywaist; so if you just tell him in a firm tone of voice to drop these investigations I'm guessing he'd do so.
I mean who would want to be tortured?
Posted by: Gekkobear at August 25, 2009 12:34 PM (QSRW1)
23 As Hudson asked in Aliens
That was Frost
Posted by: toby928: Nerd at August 25, 2009 12:36 PM (PD1tk)
24 And I'm late with the pedantry.
Ironic that Frost burned to death.
Posted by: toby928: Nerd at August 25, 2009 12:37 PM (PD1tk)
25 Do the lives of innocents outweight the moral qualms of engaging in what would in other circumstances be morally objectionable behavior?
Yes they do. It's not that difficult a moral dilemma.
The US didn't not gratuitiously or sadistically abuse detainees. No one was crippled, disfigured, or murdered because of enhanced interrogations. Not one detainee was a political prisoner, dissident, or any other class of innocent that dictatorships routinely abuse or oppress. All were sworn enemies of the United States captured on the field of battle or in connection with a military or paramilitary operation. This moral grandstanding by unserious people is a deadly serious affair, and will have consequences that reach well beyond the current political climate.
Posted by: UGAdawg at August 25, 2009 12:38 PM (ev309)
26 Of course torture works - if anyone on the left doubts it, let them ask their good friends in China, Russia, Cuba, and so on. It's only in America that torture doesn't work, according to them - except it does, as we all now know. Of course, the left and libs won't care. They are objectively pro-terrorist and want American citizens to die in terror attacks as long as they can benefit from it.
Posted by: BattleofthePyramids at August 25, 2009 12:40 PM (2hapb)
27 Alas, if only terrorists were unborn children...
Posted by: Fritz at August 25, 2009 12:40 PM (GwPRU)
28 The US didn't not
The US DID not-oops.
Posted by: UGAdawg at August 25, 2009 12:41 PM (ev309)
29 I ask again, who was really tortured? KSM or Daniel Pearl?
The left doesn't care about dead Jews.
Posted by: carl at August 25, 2009 12:48 PM (hx/U3)
30 I heart Dick Cheney!
Posted by: runningrn at August 25, 2009 12:48 PM (D2il9)
31 torturing people with secondhand smoke is chemical warfare.
Posted by: Lefty Hussein McMoonbat at August 25, 2009 12:50 PM (2jQGY)
32 I think I've come up with a few decent gauges for whether or not something is torture.
1) Would you go on public television and have this action performed on you for cash prizes?
2) Would you have this action performed on you on a dare?
3) Would you have this action performed on you as part of fraternity hazing or on Jackass?
4) Would you have this action performed on you for a Klondike bar?
5) Would you submit to this action in Aruba or Ibiza?
If you answered "yes" to any of these questions regarding a type of "torture", then what you have isn't torture. These are things that have more specific names: "publicity stunt" or "youthful stupidity".
Posted by: The Ghost of Flannery O'Connor at August 25, 2009 12:53 PM (c+8UE)
33 On FoxNews, Juan Williams, for example, handled this report by simply denying it, by insisting against the expert opinion of the CIA
Remember when the left took the CIA's word on everything - especially the National Security Assessment that question Iran's nuclear threat.
I wonder what happend?
Posted by: Che Pizza at August 25, 2009 01:01 PM (SPSOE)
34 I have an idea that will settle this BS from Holder once and for all.
Are there any AOS Morons out there currently sitting on a Federal Grand Jury???
If there is how about the next time you meet you all discuss and vote on an indictment of Holder for various federal crimes including:
Bribery by the Chinese
Bribery by wife of convicted felon Marc Rich
Malfeasance of office
Misprision of a felony in dropping charges on already convicted thugs
A Federal Grand Jury can vote out a true bill and indict just about anybody they want to and there is NOTHING the judges and politicians can do about it.
Posted by: Vic at August 25, 2009 01:05 PM (CDUiN)
35 Burn Notice is the #1 show in America.
Because Gabrielle Anwar refuses to wear a bra.
Posted by: EC at August 25, 2009 01:10 PM (mAhn3)
36 Ahhh... it dawned on me. Enhanced Interrogation Techniques.
I first read the title and kept thinking WTF? Earned Income Tax credits worked? WTF did Cheney have to do with that?
Posted by: Entropy at August 25, 2009 01:17 PM (IsLT6)
37 Burn Notice is the #1 show in America.
Because Bruce Campbell is god.
Posted by: Entropy at August 25, 2009 01:18 PM (IsLT6)
38 EIT deniers.
Posted by: profligatewaste at August 25, 2009 01:20 PM (b3rrc)
39 Because Bruce Campbell is god.
Sure has been pimping the Miller a lot...
Posted by: EC at August 25, 2009 01:25 PM (mAhn3)
40 Do the lives of innocents outweight the moral qualms of engaging in what would in other circumstances be morally objectionable behavior?
How is it morally objectionable to inflict suffering on vicious barbarians who have zeero regard for innocent life? To let them live happily after what they've done is what morally objectionable imo. They whole idea is just another angle of liberal propaganda.
Posted by: AlexD at August 25, 2009 01:26 PM (4Jw2h)
41 Burn Notice is the #1 show in America.
Because Bruce Campbell is god.
Yup, I second that. Funny, all of a sudden I've got a real jonesing for a Mojito!
Posted by: runningrn at August 25, 2009 01:36 PM (D2il9)
42 "No justice, no pieces (of Americans)."
Posted by: Jesse Jackson at August 25, 2009 01:43 PM (D2il9)
43 The Ghost of Flannery O'Connor: I have my own tests, but not for if it's torture or not. If for whether it is acceptable or not.
- Would you allow the act to be performed on yourself if you knew it would save the lives of ten random Americans in a hidden location?
This gets us pretty high up the chain, right off the bat. Would you let yourself be tied up and have someone smack you around a bit to save ten random people's lives? I probably would.
- Would you allow the act to be performed on yourself if you knew it
would save the lives of your family (assuming you like them)?
This gets you even higher. A good portion of people I know would be willing to die for such an outcome. I don't think this is a standard we can use, because it's so personal. But the first test allows you to do A LOT.
Posted by: mr.frakypants at August 25, 2009 02:22 PM (zOP98)
Burn Notice is the #1 show in America.
Because Bruce Campbell is god.And he has the best line about spies in TVdom.
"You know spies... bunch of bitchy little girls."
Posted by: IllTemperedCur at August 25, 2009 02:26 PM (btril)
45 Ace: "...a difficult philosophical one: Do the lives of innocents outweight the
moral qualms of engaging in what would in other circumstances be
morally objectionable behavior?"
Turns out, it's not difficult at all especially when the overseas contingency operatives are known, absolutely known, to be the heads and/or brains of their operations. By the no-harsh-language crowd, were we to catch Bin Laden, then getting information out of him without saying "please" would be prosecutable. It's ridiculous beyond measure, but that's how some think. Or, if they don't actually think that when you take their position to the inevitable extreme, then they're liars. Either way, their opinions really aren't worth hearing as they are too dangerous to have a voice in a land of free people's trying to survive in a dangerous world.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at August 25, 2009 02:36 PM (JamGx)
46 Oh, and Cheney vindicated. Again.
Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at August 25, 2009 02:37 PM (JamGx)
You forgot that Eric Holder was also involved in getting Clinton to release those Puerto Rican terrorists.
Eric has a hardon for terrorists.
Posted by: Uniball at August 25, 2009 03:17 PM (27iEn)
48 If you can pay to have these acts performed on you at certain "clubs" on Bourbon Street, then it's not torture. And you can.
Posted by: Empire of Jeff at August 25, 2009 04:32 PM (cmFH6)
49 Under the new standard of cigar smoke being "torture," then Steve McGarrett would have been charged, convicted, and executed in Season 1 of Hawaii Five-O.
When the next 9/11 happens due in large part to the O clan's pre-9/11 posture, I look forward to someone walking up to Holder and Obama and barking, "Book 'em! Murder One."
Posted by: RB at August 25, 2009 06:01 PM (DHDwY)
50 U.S. Attorney General Eric Holderfunctions asan advocate for terrorists against the United States.And some people thoughtthe Obama administration wasgoing to be all nice and stuff.
Posted by: Chas at August 25, 2009 07:08 PM (yjDfo)
51 As someone who has genuiely, without any doubts whatsoever, been tortured, I can assure everyone willing to listen that OF COURSE IT WORKS!!! When someone has tied/handcuffed/trapped you in a bath tub and they start kicking you with combat boots/holding you under water/thumping hot cigarrette ashes in your eyes, you will tell them damn well everything you've ever known about everything. Yes, you will lie to say what they want you to say, but when you really are scared, you spill your guts. People who cry over whether it's moral or not, wrong or right, I have been tortured. A lot. For hours upon hours. These pissant bastards have no clue. And they deserve everything they got and a hella lot more.
I would have taken off fingers to start, myself.
Posted by: di butler at August 25, 2009 09:43 PM (tjdui)
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Posted by: jason at August 25, 2009 10:03 PM (P6v4z)
53 #44 That seems more of a test of the character of an individual. I think most of the good morons here would be willing to undergo true torture (the Rack, the Iron Maiden) to save American lives. The Obamateur? I doubt he'd even be willing to be subjected to watching Ishtar for a single American. In both cases it would prove the character of the former and expose the lack thereof for the latter.
Posted by: The Ghost of Flannery O'Connor at August 25, 2009 10:24 PM (c+8UE)
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