1

 

They lost me at " we need to protect Medicare."

2 "Which is of course probably the whole idea."

Sure it is, and always has been.  There is no "health care" EMERGENCY!  It's not BROKEN, it just has areas that need fixing.  But the Democrats aren't going to garner additional votes by just fixing things.

3 I don't think pandering to seniors is necessary. I'd hope they understand that the system is bankrupt. The game is over. It just needs to be explained honestly to them. And it'll last as long as it can, but there has to be a cut off, where people under a certain age can not expect medicare/SS/etc.

It's going to have to happen eventually. Whomever announces it and follows through with legistlation to enact it will probably destroy his political career (and probably his party's) but would have saved this country.

4 Seniors are nothing but crypto-conservative racists.  They deserve everything the death panels give them.

5

 

Hey GOP, How About A Taxpayers Bill of Rights, you gutless leeches?

We can reduce the costs of health care in this country by simply stopping illegal immigration and deporting millions of foreign parasites. Fuck Medicare, you spineless pandering weenies.

6

#2

Yeah.  Isn't Medicare going to be bankrupt by 2020 or something like that?  However, I don't have a blessed clue on what to do about that.  I'm just a moron, not a policy wonk.

Still, in the end, there will be only chaos.

7

This is just the kind of pandering to special groups that the GOP should not be doing. Most people right now see no need for ANY of this so-called reform. The GOP should be maintaining that the current system can have some changes that involve deregulation and tort reform but that is all that is needed.

 

This is just more of the same old socialist-lite bullshit that has turned off conservatives for the past 10 years.

8 Plus, seniors are even worse than those Chinese, Indian, and Jewish doctors who keep trying to steal my tonsils and amputate my feet!

9 Gee, those geezers were patriotic enough to win WWII.  You'd think they would happily line up for the death panel review, as good citizens.

10 Where is Steele on illegals........instead of worrying about rich republicans not being protected how about not having to pay for illegals.

11 Obamacare crashes on the shoals of the seniors who have already got theirs and won't share? Priceless. They aren't that into you Democrats. They're into the goodies, and they're not as massively stupid as the youth vote.

12 But the Democrats aren't going to garner additional votes by just fixing things.

Silly moron.  If we "fix" anything, as you so quaintly put it, what would the people need us for the next time around?

"Keep it broken, keep bitching about it, keep getting elected" is our motto.

13 Barack Obama's plan is to put a huge number of Americans on the socialist system from cradle to in the grave.

FIFY

14 Republicans need to energize young voters, also, by illustrating how UHC is neither free, nor in their best interest if they want to keep more of their paychecks.

15 They're shooting themselves in the foot for 2012. The GOP shouldn't be talking about saving Medicaid, which is broken. They need to be talking about scraping the whole thing and allowing the free market to do it's work.

Obama and the Democrats are Socialists, but how is it good for the GOP (and for America) to be "less Socialist than the Dems?"

16 It's going to have to happen eventually. Whomever announces it and follows through with legistlation to enact it will probably destroy his political career (and probably his party's) but would have saved this country.

Probably won't happen.  The person who announces it will have to have the backing of their own party.  As we are seeing already, some factions of the party are politically pragmatic enough to try and save their own careers (can you say Blue Dogs, boys and girls?).

17 I'll tell you right now that Obama's downfall will be at the hands of these "seniors". I put that in quotes because the term used to describe these people for that last few decades has been "Baby Boomers". Obama and his retarded cohorts, by threatening to cut benefits for "seniors" (ie. boomers) and raise taxes on the "wealthy" (ie. boomers retirements) have brought this block of voters back into the mix, right when they were about to fade away. Now this group, which has always been a) activist and b) selfish has nothing better to do that go to town halls, tea parties and mobilize against the idiots who brought them back into the mix.

So, basically, the smartest man on the planet brought the baby boomers back into action, on the opposite side from himself. Real smart.

18

 

We went from The Party of Ideas to the Party of Bad Ideas.

19

15 They're shooting themselves in the foot for 2012. The GOP shouldn't be talking about saving Medicaid, which is broken. They need to be talking about scraping the whole thing and allowing the free market to do it's work.

Newt tried that before he went all wobbly and sat on the couch with Pelosi.

"Whither on the vine". Remember that crap?

20

Ace,

 

Good point on the entitlement issue and how federal entitlements lock seniors to the party that supports them, but the big issue will be the doctors, nurses, support staff and administrators who will eventually become government employees. When the public option fails to attract doctors due to billing issues and when hospitals start to go under due to insufficient reimbursements from Medicade, Medicare, and the public option, government will step in to take over. At that point you will have a massive government workforce who will vote in lock step to support the part of “the people”, (think teachers union) and that is ball game…  

 

Sean

21 I'd hope they understand that the system is bankrupt. The game is over. It just needs to be explained honestly to them.

I wish you were right, but I doubt it.  Its a lot like explaining to a crackhead that we are going to take away his cocaine "for his own good".  He ain't going to go along with it.  ObamaCare is failing, not because seniors are loyal freedom-loving capitalists.  Its failing because seniors are not dumb and are pulling up the ladder to "free medical care" so that others can't get into that tree house.  This is rational on their part, because they know that they will pay the price if there is any rationing to be done.  But that does not translate into support for reforming Medicare.  They are going to ride that boat right over the falls.

Yes, I know.  I went overboard on the metaphors.  Hey, I'm on a roll!

22 It's not the 50 million new recipients that scare me since (a) that number is based on uninsured and is an exaggeration, (b) that included chronic non-voters like illegal immigrants so they are not a reliable voting block like seniors.

This is about UNIONS. Unions have a strategy to grow, and since they trashed the manufacturing sector their biggest growth has been public sector. What better method for increasing union membership than turn 1/5 of economy into a new public sector.

Why else would they be so eager to give up their main advantage in unionizing shops? (the union negotiated benefits?)

23 ObamaCare is failing, not because seniors are loyal freedom-loving capitalists. Its failing because seniors are not dumb and are pulling up the ladder to "free medical care" so that others can't get into that tree house.

Sad and horribly true. We won't get free of this nonsense until people are ready to hear: TANSTAAFL.

So we may be fucked anyway.

24 Can you count on the Woodstock generation's understanding of the capitalist system?

25

17 I'll tell you right now that Obama's downfall will be at the hands of these "seniors". I put that in quotes because the term used to describe these people for that last few decades has been "Baby Boomers".

The current seniors aren't the Baby Boomers.  The Boomers were born between 1946 and 1964.  They haven't even hit Social Security age yet. And it is one huge-ass generation, hence the name.  Once Boomers start collecting SS and Medicare and stop contributing to supporting the system, we'll be lucky if Medicare lasts until the current projected belly-up year of 2017.

26 How about give them vouchers or money in an HSA that they spend on healthcare as they see fit? Reducing barriers to competition would go a long way as well.

27

Isn't this what Frum predicted?  That the GOP could get a tactical advantage by energizing seniors while creating a strategic deficit.  Once the GOP signs up for this horseshit, the Dems will feed it to them and we'll be lucky to see GOP membership at the depression-era nadir.

 

28 ok what concerns me is they are talking about preventing rationing of care to seniors, but what about the handicapped? we need to protect them too. I am one. YOu might become one. all it takes is a car accident and we can lose our legs, our hearing, or sight, or become head injured. Lots of head injured p[eople regain function with expensive therapy and go on to live productive happy lives. They are not retarded or so badly gacked you could even pick them out if you talked to them. But they could be denied services too if they were just checking off boxes in an offcie, deciding who gets what...

do these people deserve to be let go?

29 Hey GOP, How About A Taxpayers Bill of Rights, you gutless leeches?

They already have one.http://tinyurl.com/2zftf3

'Tis a shame that no politicians pay more than the most superficial of lip service to same, but that is an easily correctable condition once people start noticing..

30 So if we can stop this madness, we'll have seniors, mostly, to thank.

America's Greatest Generation saving her ass once again!

31 15 They're shooting themselves in the foot for 2012. The GOP shouldn't be talking about saving Medicaid, which is broken. They need to be talking about scraping the whole thing and allowing the free market to do it's work.

Obama and the Democrats are Socialists, but how is it good for the GOP (and for America) to be "less Socialist than the Dems?"

Posted by: brackabam at August 24, 2009 02:14 PM (x3Xj1)

It would be good if first you get a clue what you're talking about -- seniors depend on Medicare -- not Medicaid (which is reserved for dire cases, including illegals -- look it up).

And why, you apparently don't ask, are seniors dependent on Medicare? -- because only the wealthy can f'n can't afford a private policy to cover those over 65. Simple really -- it's there, and you damn well better use it if you want to live.

That there "free market" talk is very exciting -- and what to do with the elderly who are stuck with the goobermint system, because they can't afford any other choice  -- let them die by the side of the road?

No one really seems to be answering that question for seniors. Down the road -- sure, reform it! Now -- WTF, do I have to die for this?

32

The current seniors aren't the Baby Boomers

I'm not really thinking about who is actually drawing on SS on Medicare right now. I'm thinking of who can be broadly described as "seniors" that are up in arms about healthcare "reform" and are pouring into town hall meetings sounding like Howard Beale.

America's Greatest Generation saving her ass once again!

I don't thing there are a lot of 80+ year olds sitting in town hall meetings raising hell. It's more like 60+ year olds that are either retirered or retiring.

My larger point is that every decade, politicians fail to recognize who baby boomers currenlty are and are punished for it. Now, they are aging, retired or soon to be retired people and they are still a) activist in nature and b) largely self-serving in their interests. If Obama and the current batch of democrats fail to recognize who these people are, they will find themselves at odds with a demographic they cannot survive without.

33 Whenever people want to argue with me about socialized medicine, they wheel out the usual talking points and want to have a nit-picky discussion about details.  I just say "I don't care.  I simply don't want the government to have that much control over me and my life, even if -- by some miracle -- it turns out to be better than the current system."
Many of them are boggled by this idea, which shows how close we are to losing the Republic forever.

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35 Yeah - the old bastards aren't itching to let other people on the gravy train they voted and promised themselves.

"A pox on all their houses."

36

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37

@7: "This is just more of the same old socialist-lite bullshit that has turned off conservatives for the past 10 years. "

Yeah, but it got Dubya elected twice, and control of the House and Senate for a time.  That's what the pols see, so they'll never abandon it, except maybe to go more left.

38 President O'Dumbo wants to cut $500 billion from medicare, or is that steal $500 billion from medicare. The dems have denied they will pull the plug on grandma but they will not give grandma a cost of living increase on their SS for the next two years. Maybe starvation is the plan. The VA stuck a pipe up several hundred vets butt and didn't clean them between uses and now they notify hundreds that they have ALS and won't live but a few months. Excuse, it was a coding error. Is anyone really stupid enough to think the crazies in D.C. can provide medical care for 300 million people? Fear, really fear the government in power today. Remember, Hitler gave great speaches to.

39

Death panels already exist, although they aren't called that. Ever know anyone who needed a liver transplant? The hospital care team prepares the case for your transplant. The cases are presented to a panel of people - you don't know who they are or on what they make their judgements.  They decide if you get listed for a new liver.  The decisions are final and there is no appeal. If you don't get listed, the hospital workers tell you they will make you "comfortable." It's a death sentence.

It doesn't end there, either.  The hospitals have martinet little pricks who get off on the power trip, too, and they'll fucking let you die and the rest of the hospital backs them up.  One hospital (with a name like a popular condiment)took my late husband off their list because of his "attitude;" he was not a good candidate because he was 'non compliant.' (Post transplant recovery takes a lot of discipline.)  His crime - he kept asking why they insisted we take a four hour drive to their hospital and rent a hotel room for a simple blood test, when the medical center across our street could do it and fax them the results. The skinny bitch said he was rude; she caused us a hard hour over that and I hope her car winds up in a canal. Luckily he saw their BS a mile off and registered with another hospital. 

Sadly, he died waiting for his liver; the delay was caused by another hospital requiring a biopsy because they had to know he was cancer-free. It didn't stop Steve Jobs from getting a new liver even though he had pancreatic cancer, which is why I'll never buy an Ipod or an Apple. And this is under the capitalist system where money rules. Imagine what will happen when the government runs the hospitals and political influence rules? Democratic party members go to the head of the line in the ER. 

40

Well yeah, it's not a flaw, it's a feature.  The primary purpose of Obamacare is and always has been to entrap as many citizens (and non-citizens) into government dependence as possible to ensure a whole new crop of loyal Democratic voters.  A 10% increase is a laughably low figure because sooner or later, we'll all be on it.  And that will be the ballgame folks.

I can already imagine the campain slogans of the future if they do manage to pass it...

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