1 first?

2 We must be putting some pressure on the heroin supply and the mob, in return, is putting pressure on the politicians to knock it off.

If we put too much pressure on the heroin supply, there will be a huge push to get us out of there.  The mob would stand to lose billions globally if we were allowed to wipe out all that opium production.

3 Uncle Jimbo, as the mom of a young recruit leaving for Parris Island in two weeks, you have just expressed every doubt and fear I have.

Afghanistan and Iraq are such totally different countries/cultures.  I simply cannot see a "victory" in Afghanistan.  We are dealing with a people who live in what amounts to the Stone Age.

I support my son's decision,  and the military 100%.  My doubts and fears lie with this "commander in chief".  And does the American public even care about our young men and women since Bush left office? 

These are the thoughts and feelings that keep me awake at night.

4 i'm lucky, i just got my two sisters back from there, they said its a shit hole

5 ...instead of defeat at the hands of al Qaeda and Iranian proxies, we won.

Yeah, only 200 Iraqis have died due to ethnic violence so far this month.

That's about a 9/11 to them.

Three cheers for us!

6 Too much blood and treasure has been spent................to cut and run away and see it all for naught.  American resolve CAN win this war and if Al Qeada and the taliban are going to be denied a safe haven it must be won.  I'm no chicken hawk.  I spent a year in Iraq and if I'm told to go to Afghanistan I'll go there too.  Buck up America.  Dont give up now.

7 The Obama declaration that there is no "victory" in Afghanistan is really just an admission that he doesn't think it's worth it.

The purpose of war is to get the enemy to apologize, agreeing that it was wrong to oppose you.  As long as there is no consensus on the part of the enemy that its former course of action was stupid and wrong, there can be no lasting peace with them.

As evidence, I submit the medieval Muslim failure to subdue Spain; the Napoleonic French failure to do the same, and the Armistice / Treaty of Versailles.  Korea. Iraq after Gulf War I. None of these ever believed themselves defeated.  

Then there is England in 1066, Japan and Germany after WWII, and Iraq now, among many other examples. 

War is won when the enemy accepts its defeat, realizing it was wrong to do what it did.

How does this apply to Afghanistan?  I dunno.

8 Expect the left to really push... they're upset enough that they couldn't force Iraq to become the new Vietnam...  they'll give almost anything to have a new Vietnam.

Of course you can already see the illogical walkback; Iraq was the bad war; Afghanistan was the good one.  Now we must leave and lost Afghanistan (the good war) while letting Iraq settle down and be a win (the bad war).

Why the difference?  Iraq would be too tough to lose now; so Afghanistan has to be the loss for America.

I mean we have to have some military loss to America.  We've worked so damn hard for one... right?

9 Yeah, only 200 Iraqis have died due to ethnic violence so far this month.

That's about a 9/11 to them.

Three cheers for us!
__________________________________________
Yes. no true conservative would say that. Only a shit head would.

10 Posted by: No True Conservative Would Say That at August 17, 2009 12:26 AM (i31Zq)

Well hello there poon stupid.

11 I never hear Obama even mention Afghanistan.  Is the idiot aware this is his war now?  A young Marine was buried nearby yesterday.  It breaks my heart the blood and treasure lost while the White House seems so out of touch with what's going on.  And Fox news is the only media I see covering the action in Helmond Province on a regular basis. 

And so what do we do?  A surge of some sort?  It's going to be bloody hell, literally.  I do not want to see the U.S. cut and run.  But to drag this thing on for possibly years is inconceivable without a clear plan in place.  Oh, and screw the libs.  Like they care about the loss of our soldiers and Marines.  I'm talking about what is best for the U.S., and also not sending our brave sons and daughters off to be blown apart by IEDs.

12 Jane, I am leaving for Fort Benning in two weeks as well. Don't let the IEDs get to you. What you are feeling because of them is exactly what the Taliban intend. Rise above it. They want to create doubt and fear in the minds of our soldiers and citizenry.

I, for one, don't fear that shit. We can and will outsmart, outfight, and outlast them.

13 Only a shit head would.

Iraq isn't a win, but we got the casualties down low enough to declare victory and get out.

That should be our strategy for Afghanistan, too.

14 Dr.Manhattan, thanks.  Yeah, I know.  I keep this stuff to myself.  Our son is  fully aware of the dangers (I think) and he's excited to go to boot camp.  Because of stuff happening so close to home it gets to you as a parent. 

God bless you.  I take heart in the fact we have the best trained, strongest, smartest military in the world. 

Now if The Won would just grow a set.

15 12-

Take care Doc.

16

No True Conservative

Three questions for you, to give you an opportunity to make a serious post on this thread:

1. Any idea how many Iraqis Saddam Hussein and his twin perverts Uday and Qusay were killing each month? And how? And why?

2. The people who are killing the Iraquis today, who are they? Were they somehow once affiliated with Saddam Hussein, and in what capacity? Or are they claiming to be affiliated with Al Qaeda?

3. Is Iraq better off today, as tings stand, or under Saddam Hussein? (Clue: Saddam Hussein sees it his way, 80% of Iraqus see it the other way. With whom do you agree?)

17

"That's about a 9/11 to them."

No, that's about a thursday to them. They've been butchering each other for millenia, especially since the "religion of peace" has been dominant in the region. The bloodletting has slowed down somewhat since we've been there, but we can't stop it entirely, what it would take to do that would be "culturally insensitive".

And by the way, I spent over two years there, working with Iraqi Police and interacting with average Iraqi people on a daily basis, how about you?

18 13 Only a shit head would.

Iraq isn't a win, but we got the casualties down low enough to declare victory and get out.
_________________________________________Yet we're still there! How do you feel about Bowing Barry now?
_________________________________________
That should be our strategy for Afghanistan, too.
_________________________________________
Yep, again: what no Conservative would say, only a pussy.

19 Well, 'night all.

20 Jane,
I did not serve, but I know a lot of military and ex-military. Your son will be in good hands, even if the commander in chief is a putz. God bless your family.

21

you know who poon reminds me of?

the idiot who would be at a bar and overhear a table of assorted sailors, marines, and soldiers talking crap about the other branches, sit down and say something like 'fucking army pussies' and wonder why the entire table stomped his ass.

 

22 And when we "cut and run" and ignore Afghanistan, we believe it will not follow us because?  It will not exist because?   It will not breed attacks against us because?  It will not fester and develop virulant forms of anti-institutional hatred because?

Please tell me, what fool thinks we can merely walk away from this, especially after they initiated the challenge against us. Is Obama and his supporters that pathetically stupid in the way of the world?

23 21-

hehe.
What would also puzzle him is why the waitress, busboy and two grandmas from the next table, worked him over too, then took his lunch money.

24

I, for one, don't fear that shit. We can and will outsmart, outfight, and outlast them.

The Dems must now try to "achieve" the failure that GWB took away from them when he defeated terrorism in the battleground it chose for itself in Iraq.

They do not fully understand the forces that they have allied themselves with in order to gain access to the votes of the dead.  This is going to get uglier than anyone can now imagine.

25 Yeah, only 200 Iraqis have died due to ethnic violence so far this month.

Given that Saddam was averaging about 20,000 civilians executed by his regime eacy year, it sounds like a large improvement indeed.

20,000 / 12 = ~1,600/month

But then again, it was Saddam doing that killing, so it was OK, right?

26 Leftists also want the U.S. to leave Afghanistan humiliated just like the Soviets were. In a way, losing this war may be more important to them than losing in Iraq, as they think it will make the U.S. the moral equivalent of the USSR, trying in vain to bully and control the "fiercely independent" Afghans.

27 Looks like the stock market is due to tank again tomorrow too.  Since the run up was due to Obama, I guess he will get to claim tomorrow's crash, right?

28 Given that Saddam was averaging about 20,000 civilians executed by his regime eacy year, it sounds like a large improvement indeed.

Gee, a slight improvement over Saddam.

For only a trillion American taxpayer dollars.

What a bargain.

29

If Obama retreats from this war, it could lead to an open season on us by AQ here in the CONUS until 2012.  What is it that bambi plans to do if we retreat, come home and another 9-11 happens - Go Back?  Good luck with that shit oh and hello draft (ultimate irony for the under 25 age group that overwhelmingly supported his dumb ass).

30

We already bailed on Afghanistan once, when the Russians pulled out we thought we'd done enough and walked away, and 9/11 was the result. I'm fairly certain that if we do the same thing again, the Jihadis will have the patience to wait until they get their hands on a nuke, and the next 9/11 will be characterized by a mushroom cloud. The backlash from that will make Iraq look like a schoolyard pushing match, both overseas and here at home.

While there would be a certain pleasure in seeing ignorant asshats like Dum-Dum get smacked upside the head by reality, I'm not a partisan hack enough to wish for that to happen. I hope we'll have the fortitude to stick it out in Afghanistan until they are able to function as a nation, something that I think will take at least a generation. We've managed to keep commitments in Europe, Japan, Korea, and other places for as long, and now we need to do it one more time.

31

I just happened to be writing this today for an obligation that had to be discharged:

Asymmetrical warfare has often been seen as some kind of way for Davids to routinely bring down Goliaths, and so it can be. But a look at the art of Operational Warfare show it to be exactly what it is—a tool of the weak used by the weak because they have no other option. It is a method of last resort, not the foolproof means that has rendered all else obsolete. For all that, it can nevertheless be a small smooth stone that falls a giant—as long as the foe has a threshold of pain that will be reached before the terrorist himself is found out and destroyed…

… Conclusion: In summary, the terrorist has many advantages, but ultimately must attempt to outlast an enemy. This puts him in the position of having to accept the chance of being hit while waiting to hit, and without the same ability to absorb blows. He cannot destroy the foe militarily, but can be so destroyed himself. This is why insurgencies historically fail, and why asymmetrical warfare is the weapon of the weak. It works, but depends on the foe for victory, both in a foe eventually becoming unwilling to fight and in a foe unable to find and destroy the terrorist before that loss of will.

 

I do not believe this war is unwinnable, merely because the size and strength of our resources render defeat possible only if we decide to give in. With all due respect to the dead and the grieving, the cost borne in that area is bearable, and the financial cost seems to be bearable (it is in comparison to this health care plan). The personnel strain do to rotations is more significant, but also workable. Thus, what is lacking is effective communication of the means to success and a final admission from certain precincts that sustained violence may actually be needed to get to the kind of world one wishes.

We can win, because there is no law written in the heavens that we can't, and if we lose it will be because we made a conscious choice to give up.

32

No True Conservative

Now for Question 2: Who’s doing the killing, and what is / was their affiliation?

33 Uncle Jimbo, could you direct me to an article on your website or simply offer your opinion on the McKiernan firing?

I'm still confused about the motivation and the effectiveness of this move. Was it political or a smart move based on the big picture view McKienan may or may not have been lacking?

34 If Obama retreats from this war, it could lead to an open season on us by AQ here in the CONUS

The same lame argument was made in an attempt to keep us in Vietnam.

Pulling out turned out just fine for us and the Vietnamese.

35 Tell that to the boat people, you sniveling little shitstain.

36

http://tinyurl.com/qtjd2a 

Not even into the first 50 seconds of this Obama is bashing Bush on not taking the fight to AQ in Afghanistan!  This vid should be emailed to every dem/lib talking head and member of congress if the one even thinks about retreating and giving up. 

1:07 - this shit bag actualy predicts that if another 9-11 happens it will come from the same place the first attack came from as an example of how Bush did not do enough.  I wonder if the one has put a fucking batallion of 11Bs in this spot he is so sure will be the HQ of the next 9-11?

 

 

37

34 If Obama retreats from this war, it could lead to an open season on us by AQ here in the CONUS

The same lame argument was made in an attempt to keep us in Vietnam.

Pulling out turned out just fine for us and the Vietnamese.

No you dumb fuck, this is what your master Obama said, go check out the vid I posted @36 - your God stated that Bush is not doing enough and if we get hit again it will come from the same region that was used to plan 9-11. 

So tell me you dumb dumb, if he cuts and runs, he is doing exactly what he blamed bush for doing, so what the fuck does this have to do with Vietnam?  Or in your world did Ho Chi Mien actually plan 9-11?

 

38 Well, let's face it.

The U.S. military target did kinda miss the target in Afghanistan.

Close enough for government work, though, I guess.

39 34 If Obama retreats from this war, it could lead to an open season on us by AQ here in the CONUS

The same lame argument was made in an attempt to keep us in Vietnam.

Pulling out turned out just fine for us and the Vietnamese.

Posted by: No True Conservative Would Say That at August 17, 2009 01:55 AM (i31Zq)

Yeah, because Commies wern't the ones who gave the world the word "Gulag".

40 38 Well, let's face it.

The U.S. military target did kinda miss the target in Afghanistan.

Close enough for government work, though, I guess.

Posted by: No True Conservative Would Say That at August 17, 2009 02:07 AM (i31Zq)

I dare you- I double dog dare you to say that to a Marine's face, with out cops nearby, and see if you live.

41

38 Well, let's face it.

The U.S. military target did kinda miss the target in Afghanistan.

Close enough for government work, though, I guess.

 

Such a lib, make a stupid remark based on ass speak and when you get called out on it you come back with some stupid shit - just like bambi.  let me guess your next remark will be about your grandmother?  So fuck face, how is it that you know so much about what the US military did or did not miss? What target in Afghanistan are you talking about, if its Obama Osama, well its not like the Jordanians called up Clinton Bush after the World Trade Center was hit and said hey we have OBL if you want to come get him. 

42

The Dems must now try to "achieve" the failure that GWB took away from them when he defeated terrorism in the battleground it chose for itself in Iraq.

They do not fully understand the forces that they have allied themselves with in order to gain access to the votes of the dead.  This is going to get uglier than anyone can now imagine.

#24, +1
I'm guessing China is going to figure rather large.

43  

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حلقات مسلسل بيني وبينك 3-حلقات بيني وبينك3

44 i3iZq-

You are the EverReady Bunny of Bullshit. Go upstairs and piss in your momma's ear. And a good night to the real morons.

45 I dare you- I double dog dare you to say that to a Marine's face, with out cops nearby, and see if you live.

Why do all the crazy posters here always assume members of the U.S. military are violent sociopaths with poor impulse control?

The military folks I know are more cynical than I am about Afghanistan.

And U.S. military families gave more to Obama than to McCain and What's Her Name last election cycle.

46 Casualties increased during the surge in Iraq, also.  In Afghanistan there is a large offensive in progress.  Attacking the enemy increases casualties.

47

#43

It's Greek to me...

#45  i31zq

Well, what do you think we should do? Serious question, asked in sincerity--you just became King for the Day. What do we do? Command decision time. 

 

 

48 "The U.S. military target did kinda miss the target in Afghanistan."

We're shooting targets at targets now?

49 Yeah, only 200 Iraqis have died due to ethnic violence so far this month.
That's about a 9/11 to them.
Three cheers for us!

Why do all liberals sound exactly alike, even in print? I remember reading virtually the identical sentence after every car bomb in Iraq. Never mind the callous, juvenile snark that shows how uncaring the liberal in question is: I'm just talking about the utter uniformity of expression.

Leftists are the only mass-produced humans in history.

50 What do we do? Command decision time.

I say we pull out.

We never got the support we needed from our allies or the people of Afghanistan to have a real chance at "success" there.

America can't afford to be the world's policeman on its own any more.

51

@47

He bans all elections in the USA and  makes Obama king for life, and the next day he hangs himself while jerking off to a picture of Obama.  Scrawled on the bathroom stall wall where his body is found are the words Unicorns and Skittles!

52 Pulling out turned out just fine for us and the Vietnamese.

Absolutely! There were no boat people, no brutal "reeducation" camps, no mass executions. Hundreds of thousands of Hmong, Montagnards, and ethnic Chinese were not murdered.

And today in Vietnam, there are no concentration camps and no persecution of the religious. Everything turned out just fine for the Vietnamese!

If you believe in something hard enough, it comes true! And if you block out reality with your unbelievably moronic political partisanship, it comes even truer! Yippee! This is fun!

Obama didn't win in 2008! Everything turned out just fine for the GOP!

53 I say we pull out.

And everything will turn out just fine for the Afghans and for us! Wheeeee! The Taliban won't take over again and set up terrorist training camps again, and we won't have to go back in five or ten years.

Everything will be wonderful, because I say so! See how easy it is to solve incredibly difficult problems?

54 America can't afford to be the world's policeman on its own any more.

What an unbelievably original thought. I've never once in my life heard this expressed. I've certainly not heard it 14 million times from 14 million identical leftists.

55 And everything will turn out just fine for the Afghans and for us! Wheeeee!

Pulling out will cost both us and the people of Afghanistan.

But they will be less than the cost of staying.

56 But they will be less than the cost of staying.

Absolutely! Let's give you a little quiz. How many people did the Taliban murder right before we invaded in 2001? These were people the Taliban were worried might aid us.

Do you know?

57

Posted by: Tom W. at August 17, 2009 02:38 AM

I'd been trying to think of a response to that expellation of ignorant flatus by poon, but it was so abysmally stupid I was just drawing a blank.

Well done.

58 55 And everything will turn out just fine for the Afghans and for us! Wheeeee!

Pulling out will cost both us and the people of Afghanistan.

But they will be less than the cost of staying.

Posted by: No True Conservative Would Say That at August 17, 2009 02:42 AM (i31Zq)

And you say that us conservitives are evil and cold hearted.....

59

I say we pull out.

We never got the support we needed from our allies or the people of Afghanistan to have a real chance at "success" there.

America can't afford to be the world's policeman on its own any more.

Are you on crack?  Where do you get data that supports your claim that "we never got the support we needed from our allies".

Please post the link so I can see how you quantified "support".

60

#50

Well, it's an unpopular decision, based on early AOSHQ polling so far, but you answered the question fair and square.

Now, when making any decision, it has to be based upon a cool calculation of the facts, with an analysis of the good and the bad. Unfortunately, everything in life has consequences, so, if you will humor me: okay, we pull out. Assuming you can name them, what are the pros, and what are the cons? Everybody else chime in if they want--I'm educating myself to some extent, on a great many things.

61 Well, since no response is forthcoming, the answer is about 30,000 according to CNN. The Taliban preemptively murdered about 30,000 people they were worried might aid the U.S.

Now, let's imagine what they'll do to the people who fought against them for the past eight years. Let's imagine the refugee problem that will arise as millions flee into Pakistan. Let's imagine what this will do to Pakistan, an almost-failed state with nukes that's currently trying to defeat the Taliban. Let's imagine the starvation, rape, and brutality that will kill thousands of refugees.  Let's imagine the cost to the U.S.'s ability to wage war. 

Ding-ding-ding! You are correct, sir! That is the answer. That is the reason liberals want us to cut and run from Afghanistan.

Liberals hate war... if it's waged by the U.S., Israel, and Britain. Every other country can kill as many people as it wants without a peep of protest from liberals. This is about crippling the U.S.'s ability to wage war. That's all. This is about discrediting us so that we can never again defend our interests.

Liberals don't care a whit about our troops, the Afghans, the Iraqis, or anybody. They only care about crippling the U.S. as a world power.

62 The pros:
-American lives and American money not spent in Afghanistan.
-The "civilized" world doesn't continue to take America for granted.
-Slight chance Afghanistan will turn out okay once we're gone.

The cons:
-Afghanistan most likely will be reconquered by the Taliban.

 

63 62 The pros:
-American lives and American money not spent in Afghanistan.
-The "civilized" world doesn't continue to take America for granted.
-Slight chance Afghanistan will turn out okay once we're gone.

The cons:
-Afghanistan most likely will be reconquered by the Taliban.

 And Afghanistan once again becomes a terrorist haven, and empowers more attacks around the globe, and on our home soil, killing hundreds, if not thousands of Americans.

Posted by: No True Conservative Would Say That at August 17, 2009 02:59 AM (i31Zq) 

FIFY.

PS: What city do you live in, troll? I hope it isn't a major metropolis, cause the next attack could be a nuke or a bioweapon.

64 That's it?  You don't play chess, do you?  You have to think a few moves ahead.  Read the post right above yours, poon.  Oh and I note you didn't even consider what would happen to the people of Afghanistan, or of Pakistan for that matter.

65 And Afghanistan once again becomes a terrorist haven

Very little of the planning or training for the attack on 9/11 took place in Afghanistan.

In fact, it mostly took place here in America.

Absent a shooting war, I think the terrorists having a safe haven isn't worth that much to them.

66 Hey chemjeff, don't you know? Poon is a Dem- the party that spawned George Wallace and segregation? Why the hell would he care about a bunch brown people? 

67 Tom W, I think you are essentially right - the internationalist left hates the idea of a unipolar world headed up by America.  So anything they can do to tear down American power will herald the advent of their new glorious multipolar UN utopia that they've been fantasizing over for decades.

68 American lives and American money not spent in Afghanistan.

You don't care about American lives. Earlier in the thread you were sneering and doing the Michael Moore "Three cheers for us!" bullshit. Save your totally insincere sanctimony. I don't buy it.

And you clearly don't care that Afghanistan will be reconquered by the Taliban. You dismiss it as a "con," when in reality it'll be a catastrophe that we will have to address in the future with more of our treasure and blood.

Liberals can't see the big picture. They can't take the long view. They're all addled by TV and crude partisanship. Hopefully Petraeus will work his magic again and you creeps won't get the defeat you lust after.

69 Very little of the planning or training for the attack on 9/11 took place in Afghanistan.

9/11 is the Holy Grail for you dopes, but in reality the training that went on in Afghanistan impacts Pakistan, India, and the rest of Central Asia.

No ability to see the big picture. You guys are supposed to be the braniacs and we're the drooling, toothless red staters, but it turns out you're pitifully parochial.

70 So anything they can do to tear down American power will herald the advent of their new glorious multipolar UN utopia that they've been fantasizing over for decades.

At the end of WWII, America's economy was almost 50% of the world's GDP and we were the only country with nuclear weapons.

Currently, America's economy accounts for less than 20% of the worlds's GDP and any pissant country that wants nukes has them or is about to have them.

And yet the far right wants to pretend that nothing has changed over the past 60 years.

71 Ah so you want to bomb the rest of the world back to the stone age so we can recapture that magic 50%. Interesting...I'm listening...

72 Very little of the planning or training for the attack on 9/11 took place in Afghanistan.

In fact, it mostly took place here in America.

Absent a shooting war, I think the terrorists having a safe haven isn't worth that much to them.

Uh huh. That's true. However, I seem to recall something about Clinton wasting some Tomahawks on deserted training camps.

And as for safe havens, your right! When your fighting a guerilla war, the absolute last thing you want to have is a place where you can rearm, rest, sleep, prepare for the next raid, etc without worrying about a Predator drone or a team of Soldiers kicking down the door.

That's why the Taliban hasn't been slipping back and forth between the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan at all! they've been there the whole time!

73 ...the training that went on in Afghanistan impacts Pakistan, India, and the rest of Central Asia.

Then perhaps they should handle Afghanistan from here on out.

That's the real "big picture."

Lord knows they have more money and troops than we have when you add to that list China, which also borders on Afghanistan.

74

#61, 62, 65

Sorry for the delay--the carrier pigeons that deliver my internet packets get a fifteen minute break at midnight (union rules--we had a nasty strike here a few years back and...well, it doesn't matter...)

Okay, naturally its the cons I'm a tad more concerned with, since the American loss rate is probably on the same order (if not smaller) than the number of troops who would be killed by auto accidents if they were back in the States (cold, but true); and money seems to be immaterial these days. So, since I have to sign off, what are the ramifications of that con of Afghanistan going back to the Taliban--may not happen, or may, I don't know enough? What is the threat to Pakistan, because naturally we are concerned about nukes? What is the threat to American deterrence credibility for the future--will we have to pay treble in the future to make up for the forfeit of credibility we have now? (Oh--what credibility you say--easy. People in that part of the world were predicting a Somalia for years. We've stayed in Iraq, and we've stayed in Afghanistan? We've proven we don't automatically have a glass jaw. Do you think that is worth anything?

Finally--what if we could win?   Let's say I told you--since you are still King for the Day--that in three years we had a 70-80% shot (I'm just making up numbers) of stabilizing the situation enough for the US presence to go down to advisor levels (say like in El Salvador in the 1980s--55 guys on the ground). Do we stay or do we go? What if I told you it was 100%? A thought exercise to finish the night, and I bid all a sweet adieu.

 

75 Umm...what?  I said a unipolar world.  We didn't have a unipolar world in 1945.  I repeat: the internationalist left doesn't want to see a unipolar world headed up by America.  They didn't want it in 1945 and they don't want it today.  (Of course in 1945 they would have been okay with a unipolar world headed up by the Soviets, but that's a different story.)

So I don't know what you are talking about poon, other than yet again to minimize America's importance in the world.  BTW: America's economy constitutes 23% of the total GDP of the planet and is still the world's largest. 

76 I'm still waiting to hear his magic plan for how he's going to put all those ethnic people back into poverty so we can capture a bigger piece of the pie. Scratch a leftist and you'll find a wish for genocide.

77 C.I.A. estimates:

U.S. economy - $14.29 trillion (2008 est.)
World economy - $69.49 trillion (2008 est.)

Which comes to 20.5%

Now consider America's economy shrank this year while China's grew at 7+%...

78 I agree, obama's doing a great job shrinking the economy! Excelsior!

79

The Democrat-led Congress can stop all military operations in Afghanistan tomorrow if they want. All they have to do is defund the ongoing operations, just as they did during the Vietnam era. The Constitution says all funding bills must come from the House, and the Democrats have the majority in the House (and Senate).

So- if the Democrats want the war to end, they have the political power to do it right now.

But since the Democrats don't have the political will, they are casting about for political cover. When they find it- and they will- we will pull out of Afghanistan, and the country will descend into chaos.

 

80 77 C.I.A. estimates:

U.S. economy - $14.29 trillion (2008 est.)
World economy - $69.49 trillion (2008 est.)

Which comes to 20.5%

Now consider America's economy shrank this year while China's grew at 7+%...

Posted by: No True Conservative Would Say That at August 17, 2009 03:31 AM (i31Zq)

And who's fault is that, I wonder? (Hint: it's not Bush.)

81
Then perhaps they should handle Afghanistan from here on out.

That's the real "big picture."

Pre-2001, they didn't.  Nobody "handled" Afghanistan.  We ignored it.  Everyone ignored it.  We laughed at the backwards Taliban blowing up 1000 year old Buddha statues.  But we did nothing.  The UN didn't do squat.  And what happened?  It became a terrorist shithole.  It became a place where Bin Laden could set up shop and finance and run a worldwide organization of terrorists.  And on 9/11 we wondered why we hadn't done something earlier.  You know what, poon?  I actually sympathize with your point of view here.  I don't want the US to be picking up the pieces of every failed state.  I don't want American blood and treasure spent on mindless excursions to replace one tinpot dictator with another tinpot dictator.  But I, unlike you poon, learned something from 9/11, and the lesson I learned is that we can't stick our head in the sand and just assume others will fix their own problems.  A lot of times they won't, and when those problems start going international, even if it doesn't seem "right" or "fair", someone has got to step in and solve those problems.  And the only "someone" that can do it is America.  End of story.  Do I want America to stay in Afghanistan forever?  No.  In some utopian dream world, I would wish for America to pull out of Afghanistan as well and for the Afghans to all sit down and have a gigantic group therapy session where they all work out their problems, renounce terrorism, form a democratic government, and have a great big group hug at the end.  But that isn't going to happen ever and it's not responsible to act as if it would happen.

82

@77

We have 307 million people in the USA (and at least a 10% unemployment rate), there are 6.7 billion people in the world. What is your point when you take into consideratin the ratios? (Oh yea China has 1 billion people 3xs more than us). I am using lib facts for these numbers so please correct me if I am wrong.

83 But 12 IMF, we used to gots 50%! Bush!

84 Night all, I've had enough. Troll, go fuck your mother. Peace and stuff.

85 I learned is that we can't stick our head in the sand and just assume others will fix their own problems.

Yeah, but North Korea strikes me as an order of magnitude more dangerous to the U.S. than anything Afghanistan could grow into once we leave.

Yet we'll never deal with North Korea while we're still in Afghanistan.

86 Yet we'll never deal with North Korea while we're still in Afghanistan.

Why not?  Why can't we do both?

Now you are just repeating the same old Iraq talking points from 2006.  "We can't win in Afghanistan while we are mired in the Iraq quagmire!"  And now that we've won in Iraq: "We can't win in North Korea while we are mired in the Afghanistan quagmire!"

Besides, poon, don't you think that the Koreans and the Chinese and the Japanese should take care of that little North Korean problem?  Maybe we should pull out of both places...

87 Pulling out turned out just fine for us and the Vietnamese.

August 17, 2009 01:55 AM (i31Zq) 

Pulling out will cost both us and the people of Afghanistan.

August 17, 2009 02:42 AM (i31Zq)

88 Yeah, but North Korea strikes me as an order of magnitude more dangerous to the U.S. than anything Afghanistan could grow into once we leave.

Yet we'll never deal with North Korea while we're still in Afghanistan.

Posted by: No True Conservative Would Say That at August 17, 2009 03:54 AM (i31Zq)

No no, we just sent Clinton there to tell the NorKs to chill.  Everything's cool with them now.

89 There is no use trying to rationalize anything dumb dumb has an opinnion about as it relates to anything.  He is just throwing shit against the screen to see what sticks.  It is amusing for a bit, however it gets old.  If he could actualy participate in a conversation by proposing logic and reason supported with fact, he might actualy have a point here and there.  Either he is to stupid to do so, or his ideology does not permit such acts, either way i wish ace would ban him and talk to axelrod about sending us an intelligent troll instead of this fool.

90 12 IMF yeah I thought that maybe, possibly, this one time, poon might have stumbled onto a logical and defensible position worth discussing.  But as usual he's just repeating talking points.  And in this instance they are 3 year old talking points to boot.    Sheesh.  What a waste of time.

I'm going to bed.

91

@90

I is weird how dumb dumb says something that could lead to an actual good conversation and then he destroys it by coming up with crazy shit.  Anyway here is my answer to the Afghan problem.

MOAB http://tinyurl.com/pb22w4

This is Occam's Razor in action when it comes to answering the question - what to do about Afghanistan.  I have often though about how quickly we would find OBL and all of his choggie boys heads on posts in down town Kabul if we started dropping these on all of the popppy fields.

 

92 Didn't we just have a thread saying Afghanistan fell off the Left's radar?

Did the defeatists not get the memo?

93 Well if it isn't Dum Dum the Surrender Monkey.

Fuck you.

94 Face it, Poon just doesn't like us, and wants to see us dead.

95 He already took victory off the table.  Time to come home.

96 ...The cries then were that Iraq was lost and we should leave as soon as possible. They came from Harry Reid and Barack Obama in the Senate and Nancy Pelosi and John Murtha in the House among others....

Now there is no one left in the government to support the troops.

97 With a commander in chief whose goal is NOT victory, and whose chief concerns appear to be the welfare of the enemy, I vote we pull out.  I do not want my military placed in a no-win situation with no one at their back.

98 "94 Face it, Poon just doesn't like us, and wants to see us dead.
Posted by: Brown People at August 17, 2009 07:55 AM (fzAAn)"


In point of fact, I've seen liberals post things along the lines of, "I don't give a shit about the Iraqies, I just don't want America involved," more than a few times.

Just consider the life of women in Afghanistan if the so-called "liberals" in this country have their way over there. Where is NOW, speaking out about that?

99 Pulling out turned out just fine for us and the Vietnamese.

No it didn't. Unless you count the subsequent 1mil. + dead Vietnamese dead due to the North Vietnamese communist terror, followed by 2 mil.+ dead at the communists' hands in Cambodia as 'fine'.

Of course, you have a point - why should people risk their lives fighting on behalf of a distant group? Fuck 'em, right?

--

I was listening to a really quite good BBC radio 4 documentary on Hamid Karzai and Afghanistan yesterday - there's no question that the Allied presence in Afghanistan is helping massively, with respect to building infrastructure as well as security.

100 Going to be a bad day on Wall Street. Asian markets down 6% overnight and Dow Futures already down 160 right now.

101 Afghanistan is going to be a long hard slog. Honestly, part of me understands the, "fuck those stone age cave dwellers" mentality, but unfortunately, in this day and age, terrorism can be developed in any environment and exported anywhere. The entire situation is just a steaming pile of pain, but i don't see any solution other than to keep killing bad guys until they no longer wish to fight. I believe that's called victory.

102 I've been trying, but I can't see a way to traditional victory in Afghanistan.

103

97 With a commander in chief whose goal is NOT victory, and whose chief concerns appear to be the welfare of the enemy, I vote we pull out.  I do not want my military placed in a no-win situation with no one at their back.

You said it better than I did!

104

I believe that's called victory.

If it is, then the president will stop doing it.  He's taken victory off the table without deciding what it entails.

105 Maybe we need to pull out of the global community altogether, go isolationist, see how the rest of the world does without us.  I look at everything this country has produced and sacrificed for the world, past and present.  Then I see all the hippies, smug Hollywood Johnny Depp-types, snooty French, muslim rage boys and, of course, our own president telling us how we're the worst country ever.  We're so terrible?  Fine.  We'll take back our foriegn aid, our private charity, our food, our medicine, our technology, science, engineering, literature, entertainment, our military that fought Nazi, Communist and terrorist alike without claiming one square inch of conquered land for our own country, we'll take all our toys and go home.  See how long before the Earth's population comes crawling back to us with their hands pressed together over their heads singing Yankee Doodle.

106

We either win, or the bad guys win iykwimaittyd; we either win or all those guys and gals died in vain...and the islamofascist goat rapers and the liberofascist bitter clinging limp dicks back here laugh and spit on their memory.

And we consign a whole bunch of people to the future slaughter.

No, no freaking way.

107 Posted by: No True Conservative Would Say That at August 17, 2009 02:42 AM (i31Zq)

You know about the military as much as you know about economics, the stock market, astronomy, history and every other subject under the sun. Like Barry and every other lefty you consider yourself intellectually superior to everyone because you're a liberal. When in fact you're an ignorant, uneducated ass clown.

108

Crusty, I am happily in favor of that plan.  Or, I would be in a perfect world.  Strength requires shows of strength.  Global trade requires a hegemon.  If we withdraw now, the hegemony which follows us may not be amenable to protecting that trade in a way which is beneficial to us.

If for no other reasons than these, we need to maintain a navy and air force at or above the current level and have it out there intimidating bad guys.  As far as warring and foreign aid, I could be totally happy taking our ball and going home.

109

 Why do I smell Vietnam redux here? Because the rhetoric is developing in the same manner? Personally I can't wait until these ball-sucking shitwipes start with the baby-killer meme.

  Been said a million times the left has no love, only loathing for the military, and I DO so wish that they'd take their "support" for our troops and SHOVE it til they CHOKE on it.

110

We either win, or the bad guys win iykwimaittyd; we either win or all those guys and gals died in vain...

We have a president who is gleefully posting policy which will outright kill people in every facet of life- whether it be high CAFE standards that force cars to be made out of tinfoil, or death panels which will murder our parents, or funding abortion which will end lives before they begin all over the world, or ignoring Iran and focusing on Honduras...

He's going to have a ton of blood on his hands, and not the kind that waters the tree of liberty.

And I don't only blame him for the Afghanistan adventure.  When we discovered why the Russians couldn't beat the Afghans down in about 2003, we should have come home.  But we still had a thirst for righteous war.  And OBL was and is still ostensibly out there.

Can I ask a tangential question?  Why the fuck haven't we bombed the poppy fields, plowed them under, and salted the earth yet?

111

Why do I smell Vietnam redux here? Because the rhetoric is developing in the same manner? Personally I can't wait until these ball-sucking shitwipes start with the baby-killer meme.

It makes me so mad when the leftist revert to form like that.  In any number of situations- in any one where the leftist cannot gain traction- they name-call and make personal attacks.  Witness Sarah Palin, the health care town hall protesters, anything having to do with opposing the president... it's their first card off the top of the deck every time.

But sometimes the grownups have to ome in and clean up the mess no matter if the kids are throwing a stupid tantrum.  I just wish the media, academia, and Hollywood wouldn't treat the kids as superior to the parents.

112 If anyone hasn't pointed it out yet, Afghanistan will be sacrificed to the trash on the left to make up for getting their ass kicked on socialized medicine.  Hopefully we can hang on there until the mid-terms, when we can take out some of the dem garbage.

113

105 -- Crusty, I can understand the feelings that support such a wish, but eventually the world comes knocking.  Isolationism isn't going to get America anything but trouble; those days are long over.

Poon, you are beyond redemption.

114 jane, I think I know you

115

110 -- I know, I know, we've got probably the worst people evah in power during a war.  It's up to the voting public to change that situation I guess, and it's up to our military, God love them, to hold out until then.

As for blowing up the poppy fields, et al. -- it's not quite that simple; things never are.

116

Yay, Cut & Run Version 2.0......bastards. My brother is going to that part of the world in a few months, so having a side of the aisle that is, at best apathetic, or worse, treasonous over the issue just makes my blood boil.

The Anti-war left? Nah, it's more like Anti-American left, and the POS that calls himself president is their cheerleader.

 

117 114 -- wha?  well, if you do, then you know that I'm a doofus and a dork...but my heart I try to keep in the right place, my head is quite another matter as it is wayward, but with some duct tape and heavy string I manage to attempt to keep it in the proper place most of the time.

118 We should have left as soon as we pummeled the Taliban.The place is still in the dark ages the people are savages who can't get along with each other let alone anyone else.The terrain is too difficult to dominate(the Russians couldn't manage it).I don't see a good way out now though so we may have to stick it out.

119 What IS it about the word "Victory" that ALWAYS makes Liberals so damned uncomfortable?

Is it too aggressively American? Western? Sounds too self-righteous? (That would be strange, actually, since there is NOTHING on God's Green Earth more priggishly self-righteous than a Liberal) Too "white" in some sense only a Liberal can define??

120

Oh, and the spoiled little hippie/preppy/yuppies and their spawn have already started the "baby killer" meme -- at least my daughter got that muttered after her in the airport.

But keeping to the actual true intent of that, it had to do with the security guard ushering her to the front of the line ahead of them to make sure she out of them all didn't miss her flight.  I think they throw poo if they think somebody is usurping their "most special citizens" status, and that's the real reason for their deep seated hate for the military.

121 Cool Czech -- yes, I've always considered "liberals" to be very puritanical in a bizarre, twisted sort of way.  That's what makes them so dangerous.

122

"Gee, a slight improvement over Saddam.

For only a trillion American taxpayer dollars.

What a bargain."

 

Oh, Dum Dum, don't pretend you give a rat's ass about taxpayer dollars. We all know whose side you're on.

I feel dumber after reading your stupidity. EVERY. TIME.

123

Liberals, Progressives, Socialists really don’t care who they screw over.  

 

Hey, I know, maybe we should get them to focus on settlements in Israel. 

 

We are in such good hands.  (and where is the f—king leadership from the Republicans?)

 

We’re are so totally effing screwed.

 

And these fuckers - these people have got it bad.  Narcissism By Proxy, a new psychological disorder effecting Liberals, Progressives, Socialists.

124

The Anti-war left? Nah, it's more like Anti-American left, and the POS that calls himself president is their cheerleader.

THREAD WINNER

125

Hey, remember the Garden of Eden that was Afghanistan after the last power vacuum?  Those advocating retreat offer no actual alternative.  How about we give the new strategy some time instead of preemptively calling it a failure.  Everyone should have a serious case of surge deja vu going. 

A loss would be a mortal blow to not just Afghanistan, but Pakistan as well.  The general war that would follow would be far, far more costly than the current burden.  We have to win.  Period.

 

126

Gee, a slight improvement over Saddam.

All those free East Europeans?  Just a slight improvment over the commies.

All those free Japanese?  Just a slight improvement over Tojo.

All those free slaves?  Just a slight improvement over the plantation.

 

127 Barry will do what is most convenient and helpful to Barry.

You didn't expect any kind of leadership or ethics to be involved, did you?

128

127Barry will do what is most convenient and helpful to Barry.

You didn't expect any kind of leadership or ethics to be involved, did you?

 

Of course not, we are talking about the Kenyan Kon-man himself.....

129 Fair enough, Circa.  I have no freaking clue to do with a sparsely-populated, stone-age-culture, impossible-to-navigate minicontinent full of heroin, semiautomatic weapons, violent cavemen, and boulders.

130 The current government in Iran was the very first to offer congrats to Iran after their disputed election. The current government is best friend with Theran I am not sure how the national security interestes of the United States were served by putting in a Shia dominated government that is allied with Iran

131 "White House public option ploy: A trial balloon, not a white flag"

132 "Gee, a slight improvement over Saddam.

For only a trillion American taxpayer dollars.

What a bargain."

Hmmm.... let's see:

1. Free and open elections in for the first time in the entire 5,000 year old history of the Middle East (outside of Israel) EVAH....

2. No more villages being gassed.

3. No more Iraqi invasions of states like Kuwait and Iran, along with the 1,000,000 plus casualties.

4. No more rape rooms, no more husbands delivered to widows as cut up body parts and organs in garbage bags.

5. The average Iraqi can now speak his mind openly without fear of government reprisal.

And liberals call this a slight improvement.

Ladies & Gentlemen,

I submit we need hear nothing more from these people to see them for the madmen they are.

133

5. The average Iraqi can now speak his mind openly without fear of government reprisal.

And liberals call this a slight improvement.

5 would negate 1-4 for the leftist.

134 wait.. I don't think the leftist is all too happy about #1 either

135 Our "victory" came at a great cost to the christians living in Iraq. Before the invasion under Saddam there were about 1.5 million. But 1 million have fled and are still too afraid to return. Christians are afraid of being killed by both Shia and Sunni

136 134 wait.. I don't think the leftist is all too happy about #1 either

Posted by: Truman North at August 17, 2009 10:06 AM (e8YaH)

 

But they may need that so the Iraq edition of ACORN can get it's foot in the door.....

137

All this BS from the troll is right out of the leftist religious manual on utopia. First they have to discredit and deligitimize the US military so that it becomes politically unviable. Step 2....? Step three: utopia. [this business model stolen from the underpants gnomes].

Once we have utopia they will sit down and negotiate with the Taliban, Mugabe, and all the other tyrants. Step 2: ...? Step 3: world peace.

It reminds me of the scene in Flight of the Phoenix (original) where part of the group went down to negotiate a rescue with some Tuaregs. They woke up the next morning with their throats cut.

Libs never, ever learn from the past. It tends to collide with their religion of utopia.

138

1) why are we there?  Had some good answers to that question, but going to ask again in case anybody wants to give their opinion

2) is our goal per #1 realistic, given the situation on the ground as well as in the White House?

139

John ryan and his crew still hope for an American defeat.  Must suck to be a self hating loser.  You got a lot of daddy problems don't ya ryan.

140 130 - JMIO - Attempting to introduce democracy into Iran was a gamble at best from the very beginning.  For it to work, the secularists would have had to prevail because of the obvious incompatibility between democracy and theocracy.  A pro-Iranian government is not necessarily incompatible with democracy in Iraq although it is clearly not the best outcome for the U.S. in the short run - it's just pragmatic.  The U.S. cutting and running will almost certainly guarantee that the influence of the more powerful theocracy of Iran will eventually overcome the tenuous grip of democracy in both Iran and Iraq because politics, like nature, abhores a vacuum.

141

Oops, somebody forgot to put NPR on the CC line for the memo.

This morning they ran a positive story about a visit by the US Ambassador to a nothern Afghan city that is succeeding with joining civilization quite well.  Then they had a long interview with a BBC correspondent who was a leftist student in Iran in the 1979 revolution.  He talked about the brutal repression, mass executions, and general degrading of Iran into thugocracy (he somehow failed to mention Jimmy Carter, however).

Don't these people know there's an American defeat to be won?

142 The lefties are still mad that Al Gore wasn't in Office on September 12, 2001. He would have apologized to the World for all of America's crimes. He would have organized a conference in Paris to try and understand what caused such a "tragedy".

Why else would folks ram airliners into American buildings?

To a Lefty American History is one great big rap sheet and we deserve whatever pain and suffering we get.

143 You got a lot of daddy problems don't ya ryan.

That and basic literacy problems in his comment full of fail.

144 I think what this thread needs is more boobs.

145 It's the same people, why would you expect a different outcome?

And here I thought Afghanistan was the right war.

146 I think what this thread needs is more boobs.

Posted by: Truman North at August 17, 2009 10:24 AM (e8YaH)

poon and John ryan are two pretty big boobs. Oh you mean the fun kind.

147 o has never made a principled decision in his life. he has no moral compass. everything is abt. him looking good.
people like this don't change.
he will choose what harms america. weakens our traditions and ideals because he doesn't understand or respect this country.
he will use the military as a tool to serve his own interests.
o will have to be relentlessly watched and exposed.
it is disgusting that we have to be concerned w/ the C.I.C. himself, as posing an additional danger to our military.

148 Interestingly enough, the TB has seen this prez for what he is.  CNN had a story about Hekmatyer offering to "help" the US and Coalition forces.  Of course that help was undefined, but it is the beging of obamas exit stratagey, I fear.

149 OT Obama pulled the plug on flag@whitehouse dot com faster than pulling the plug on grandma

150 I'm still trying to figure out how Truman knows me...and if so, do I know him?

151 War?  What war? Swine Flu.........ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
How the hell did we end up with this moron as the leader of the free world. Well, it ain't gonna be free long if this shit keeps up. Excuse me while I face Mecca and bow down.  I hope the guy in front of me washed his feet and his ass.

152

Can I ask a tangential question?  Why the fuck haven't we bombed the poppy fields, plowed them under, and salted the earth yet?

If you remove the farmers source of income it has to be replaced by  something with comparable income or better. Otherwise you piss off the grower just like you would be if your sourse of income was removed and replaced by a lesser means.

Elimination of the grower is not conducive to good relationships with the locals (or his family)  as he spends his money in town also.

 

153

I'm all for leaving Afghanistan then bombing as neccesary. They have no culture to build on. The one they do have is in antithesis to Western civilization, do we really want to grow that?

Let the Taliban have the country. Leave predator drones flying, napalm the poppy fields, and be done with it. I bet you Pakistan gets alot more interested in keeping Afghanistan from becoming a base for Taliban operations in Pakistan.

154

@ #151

"How the hell did we end up with this moron as the leader of the free world. Well, it ain't gonna be free long if this shit keeps up. Excuse me while I face Mecca and bow down.  I hope the guy in front of me washed his feet and his ass."

Nope. Never.

Sharpen your machete Achmed, but you better be wearing body armor -- for all the good it will do you. You can't armor your head, and I'm not a bad shot.

You want to make me bow down? Write your will and prepare your funeral arrangements, bucky.

Never happen. And you shouldn't either. How do you think this country got into the shape it's in?

155

As a terrorist bent on doing harm to infidels, I left Afghanistan long ago.  I mean it was good for a while but the Americans came in and kicked butt and took all the funding away and generally made the place inhospitable for my good work to go forward.  And it was/is/will be a shit hole!

 

While the U.S. chases it tail around the Hindu Kush, I am sipping goat milk juleps on the beach in Somalia.  My buds are sure to score a fertilizer freighter or something I can make use of eventually and in the mean time a million dollar ransom or two keeps me in AK’s, RPGs and blond hookers.

 

As an American, I think we should prosecute the War on Terror vigorously and kill these vermin where and when we find them.   But I am not certain that an intense focus on Afghanistan remains in our interest.

156 Thanks a lot, POON, you worthless shit.  You don't give a fuck about the lives of Afghan women, girls, or gays.  You don't care whether they live, are tortured, or are stoned, hanged, or crushed to death.  GO ahead, prove to me that you do care.  You can't, or you wouldn't be so flippant about the prospect of the Taliban reconquering Afghanistan.  You cheap punk.

157 I work with a woman who escaped the Cambodian "re-education" camps.  Her mom gave birth there.  A soldier, a Cambodian soldier, plunged his bayonet into the baby's skull.  That's a real baby-killer.  And yet poon and John Ryan would just love to see part II renacted in Afghanistan, on account of their superior ethics, you see.

158 Seems like not all that long ago Ace was writing about how we should get out, wasn't he?

159 I keep up with this shit. I read most everything about Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe that most people that write about it don't know a damn thing about what they are saying or writing. Just copy catting and guessing and bullshitting.

But one guy I do believe is Michael Yon. Three years ago he said that the west was losing it's ass fast in Afghanistan and that major efforts would be needed just to meet the level of violence, let alone make the population safe and to turn them away from the bad guys. The Afghans are not stupid they go with the strongest and most dangerous. That is the way they stay alive.

That is how it has always been.

There are many factors involved in why the Afghan war and Iraq war (I call them battles in the same war) are different. But one of the major reasons is that Pakistan is much more involved in Afghanistan than Iran ever will be in Iraq. To "win" in Afghanistan we must also win at the same time in Pakistan. They go together like a condom and pussy. But actually there is no condom between them, just a line that the UN drew which is not recognised by the various tribes anymore than we would recognize one wave in the ocean separating one ocean from another.

Go to Michael Yon's website and start reading from as far back as you care to go to get an idea of the deep shit that we have stepped into and sunk into our ears in. He mentions other sources of info in his "dispatches" as well.

While your there, hit his tip jar. It is the ONLY source of revenue he has other than his book sales. You should buy his books too. Great reads and will leave you in amazement at our Warriors and their exploits.

Some Mom said in this thread said that the Afghan was still back in the stone age. She is almost right except these Islamic caveman hordes know how to use almost every modern weapon there is and how to make a lot of them. They are born Warriors and have been at it for thousands of years.

Yon and others have said in all seriousness that it will take most likely a century to bring Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan into the 20th century. Not even the 21st Century.

But all those that have spent any time there all say that the people are such that once they are your friend they are your friend for life. That they, like Americans despise a government which pushes them down with false promises, which they now have.
That they deserve help climbing out of the past into a future where life and liberty are more important than corruption, tribal identity and  perpetual war.

Obama doesn't have the stomach for what it will take to even slow down the killing let alone construct what needs to be built in Afghanistan. Notice I didn't say re-construction, because there is nothing there to re-construct.

Those that know say it will take even more troops than Iraq and it will take more from our NATO "friends" than they will want to give. Right now only about 4 or five countries are actually doing any fighting, the rest are there for other reasons. Some don't know why they are there at all.

Fundamental Islamics are the same the world over, except that those in Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan are more nationalistic and more tribal. They don't want ANYBODY in their country, even as they hate what the Taliban and outside Islamics are doing to their nation. But even as they say that, they admit that the Taliban are still their "brothers". Both the Taliban in Afghanistan and those in Pakistan.

It is indeed a mess and a quandary.

Papa Ray
West Texas

160

Afghanistan's a total disaster. You could remove the "Taliban" (really, a disparate number of groups) entirely and you'd still have a completely fucked up collection of disagreeable ethnic groups, tribes, and sects - who have no intention of living at peace with each other. Most of whom are increasingly pissed at our internal interference, and looking for a foreign scapegoat to blame. If we're not done with major combat operations or out of the country within the next two-three years, we're going to be in deep trouble. 

The entire mission's a giant social experiment gone wrong at this point. So, the government's just as dysfunctional shaping elaborate social policies abroad as it is at home - who could have expected that?

161

Corrupt politicians in Washington telling corrupt politicians in Afghanistan and Pakistan to play nice. What a joke.

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166 I’m a pretty tolerant guy, but beyond his ideology, some of Santorum’s behavior is just a little bizarre. For example, Santorum has six children. In 1996, he had son born prematurely who lived for only two hours. He and wife brought the child home and introduced the dead infant to the rest of their children as “your brother Gabriel” and slept with the body overnight.

Hmmmph...seems pretty normal, to me.

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