1

Must...not...blink...must...not...blink... aieeeee!

2 Obama lacks the stones to actually do anything about it.

3 I'm not sure what you mean by 'someone has to blink.'  Obastard has already cut off arms sales, what more can he do?  Israel can keep on building and buy their weapons elsewhere. 

I guess you mean if Israel ignores him, like everyone else does, and he doesn't give another speech or something, he's blinked, but accomplishing nothing is pretty much his MO.

4 The Joos won't let me talk to Obama and the Jooos won't listen to Obama neither.
It's all the Joos fault, especially Eric Cantor.

5 All Israel needs to resolve this is a few Chicago real estate agents and developers.  Hire them to build the improvements, and the White House will go away with a whimper.

6 Methos:

Israel can keep on building and buy sell their weapons elsewhere. 

Fix'd it.

7 All Israel needs to resolve this is a few Chicago real estate agents and developers.  Hire them to build the improvements, and the White House will go away with a whimper.

Posted by: Jean at June 29, 2009 01:52 PM (L64A6)

The Palestinians did that  and they are still in refugee camps 40 years later.

8 Did someone mention me?

9 No one "has to blink".  Its Obama, he says what he wants to appeal to the public, then moves on, regardless of the outcome.  There is no blinking when your view is "What, me worry?"

10 I think the $3 billion America hands to Israel each year is now in play.

11

Heh, the Bebester telling The Vapid One°° to quit meddling in Israels' bidness.

A fellow moron, whose name escapes me at the moment, had a comment to the effect of "you can leave our territory or be considered an enemy after X date" had the right idea, snark aside. IMHO Israel should consolidate all land within her borders, tell the rest of the world to pound sand and let Egypt give those barbarians their land if they really want a Palestinian state. That'd be close enough for the"two states side-by-side" solution.

12

 I think the $3 billion America hands to Israel each year is now in play.

Hey shit spoon, do you have any problem giving the Egyptian dictator $4 billion annually? Tell me you sphincter licking liberal faggot, why do we give Israel and Egypt that aid?

13 I'm going with Ehud Barak over Barack Hussein. The only people who should fear Barack Hussein are law abiding, domestic voters who believe in freedom.

Netanyahu will eat BH up and spit him out.

14 Israel is merely a distraction for Barack.

15 Great Satan,

Israel is free to do what it wants, but if it doesn't want to follow our rules, it shouldn't be receiving large amounts of American taxpayer money each year.

That's a real conservative position, not a liberal one.

16

"Someone has to blink."

Hmm, who will it be? A people that have been threatened with the destruction of their country since it came into existence, or a big-earred buffoon who clearly has no idea what he is doing or even a spine to stand up to terrorists like the Iranian government.

Oh, gee, I wonder! *snark*

17 Are you joking me? What? 50 houses somehow becomes the finger in Obama administration's face?

What about the 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 gazillion houses the Arabs built illegaly INSIDE the green line? Bibi and Barak are bowing down to Obama like Obama did to King Faisal, and the lefties are saying "not low enough!". Not to mention the righties who seem to find encouragement when it's nowhere to be found.

18 I'm deeply concerned. Let's wait and see how this plays out.

19

Great Satan, Israel is free to do what it wants, but if it doesn't want to follow our rules, it shouldn't be receiving large amounts of American taxpayer money each year.

Answer the question motherfucker:  why do we give Israel and Egypt that aid?

 

20 Yeah, poon good luck getting that through Congress.  Even so, cutting ties to Israel by the Obama regime might not be so bad as it would liberate Israel to do anything and everything it needs to do in order to secure itself.

Heck poon, some Mossad wet work at 1600 Pennsylvania might even be on the table.  I'm sure they have the sense to make it look like lung cancer.

21 Great Satan, Israel is free to do what it wants, but if it doesn't want to follow our rules, it shouldn't be receiving large amounts of American taxpayer money each year.

What's this 'our rules' crap?  Obama doesn't speak for us.  Congress determines where it spends the taxpayer's money.  And even if his party were to cut off funding, I'm sure there are plenty of Americans in the Evangelical community and some in the Jewish community who would consider passing around the plate to defend Israel from enemies like Obama and the Palestinians.

22

Building Nuclear Weapons in Iran? OK

Jews building houses? A crime against humanity that cannot be allowed to stand.

Did anyone notice what is going on in honduras and Obama's reaction to it. So far that I can tell only three people have critisized Honduras's defense of democracy by ousting a wanna be strongman. Those three: Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, and our Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.  Am i think only one who remembers obama saying that he won't comment of Iran's domestic issues for two reasons. 1. He didn't want to seem as though he was interfering in Iran's domestic politics. 2. Because of America's past involvement in Iran, specifically the 1952 overthrow, but we can't mention the fact the US prevented a Soviet invasion of Iran in 1946.

Well If you apply that reasoning to Honduras, why did Obama comment the day the president was exhiled, and i may be mistaken, but I think the US has history of meddling in Latin America. How openly hypocritical can you get. Will the media notice?

Also Honduras exhiled there president after he tried to strong arm the country's supreme court which declared his referendum illegal, and fired the head of the military, which is responsible for balloting in that country.  So the supreme court asks the military to kick out the president.Whereas in Iran, a dictatorship is trying to hold onto power by killing pro democracy Iranians, in comparison to Honduras democratically minded people are expelling a wanna be dictator.  And Obama feels no qualms critisizing the latter.  Oh and Honduras isn't seeking nuclear weapons and threatening to annihilate an ally.

What a world we live in.

23 I think the $3 billion America hands to Israel each year is now in play.

Surviving on the other 98.5% of their GDP is something they could live with, obeying Apophis, not so much.

24 Israel is free to do what it wants, but if it doesn't want to follow our rules, it shouldn't be receiving large amounts of American taxpayer money each year.

That's a real conservative position, not a liberal one.

Posted by: poon at June 29, 2009 02:06 PM (i31Zq)

Blackmail - the real conservative position!

Thank you for uttering the TRUTH. Heil Hitler & Ron Paul!

25 Good for Netanyah.  I hope they know that this ass-clownish aberration does not represent at least half of Americans.  I support Israel's right to self defense.  They've shown remarkable restraint in the face of continuous attack thus far.  They'd be justified in evicting every last arab from their borders in my opinion based on self-defense alone as it is.

God speed to our greatest ally in the middle east.  May their bombs find a speedy arrival in heart of any Arab state or terrorist wanna-be-state (a state of 'Palestine' is a lie, I refuse to label it a real state by any means) that wishes to continue the war against the sons of Isaac despite the continuous benefits they have reaped from the existance of the Israeli state.

May those that consider themselves 'Palestinian' realize that they would do well to join Israel as citizens rather than continue backing the theocratic terrorist sponsoring regimes that they came from.

26 Look at it this way:  Israel can buy the right to do whatever it wants in the occupied territories for only $3 billion a year.

What a bargain.

27 I think the $3 billion America hands to Israel each year is now in play.

You only think that because you don't understand how the government works.  Congress decides who gets what, and the Israelis still have a lot of influence in Congress.

But even if that weren't the case, that money is there in part to keep the Israelis from selling the advanced weapons technology they've developed to countries like China.  There are a couple areas, like targeting pods and advanced radars, where we import the Israeli stuff because it's better than ours.  And we're not keen on facing better technology on the battlefield.

Besides, the Israelis have taken Obama's measure.  He's a Chicago-style ankle biter, not a straight-up fighter.  He can be safely ignored.

28 If they want to build a bunch of houses, that's their business.

But if the U.S. President asks them not to...  and I don't care who the President is...  they should treat the request with respect (even if they want to argue about it behind the scenes).

If we want to help them in the future, that's just more charity, but they have no business getting bent out of shape over it.  Every country in the world acts like US owes them something whenever some other country (not the US) does something  bad to them.  Is the U.S. going to build and arm a Kurdish state because of what the Turks did?  Should we give weapons and money to the Aborigines because a bunch of British convicts built a country in Australia?  What about the Roma?  Why not rebuild Tenochtitlan and give the Aztecs some helicopters? 

If they want to live in a safe country that will value give them opportunities beyond their wildest dreams, they should apply for US citizenship.  If they unconditional support for their territory, they should petition for statehood and follow our laws.   

29 Look at it this way:  Israel can buy the right to do whatever it wants in the occupied territories for only $3 billion a year.

What a bargain.

Or they can just ignore him and still take the money.  An even better bargain.

30

Hey shit spoon, do you have any problem giving the Egyptian dictator $4 billion annually? Tell me you sphincter licking liberal faggot, why do we give Israel and Egypt that aid?

I take credit!

31

Here's two news items about Israel:

1. Systems in Israel's F-15s upgraded for long distance attacks

 

2.O Admin. told Pal. Authority that the 'golden age' of Israeli construction in sections of Jerusalem and the strategic West Bank will soon come to an end

32 Or they can just ignore him

I like the cut of your jib.

33 Remember, when you want advice on what is the proper conservative opinion, ask a raging liberal dumbass like me!

34

All Israel needs to resolve this is a few Chicago real estate agents and developers.  Hire them to build the improvements, and the White House will go away with a whimper.

Oh friggin hell yeah.

"Hey Barry, y'know a good construction guy?"

"We're gonna need some mo land over here get these damn 'palstenians' on a bus to the soup shelter or somethin! Rahm, we got a project!"

35

Surprisingly, poon has a point. One of the worse things you can do to a friend is become too dependent upon him. And Israel and the USA have done that to each other. Israel has become reliant on US foreign aid. And the USA has become reliant on more Israeli concessions to keep a bogus "peace process" alive.

What if we had told the bloodthirsty Muslim savages, "Look, you tried in several dreadful attempts to exterminate Israel, and the Israelis beat you back and stole some of your borderlands fair and square", as the late great Senator Hayakawa would have put it. Instead, we bribe Egypt and Jordan to remain peaceful. While Egypt's state run press continues to whip up anti-Americanism (the Hashemite family is somewhat better).

 

36 Hang in there, Israel!

37 My votes on Israel.  Hell, they are surrounded by people who work to destroy them on a daily basis and have to fight to stay alive.  What's the worst Obama has had to deal with?  Fox News was mean to him.

tink

38 The expansion of Israeli settlements is NOT an internal debate that I can allow to happen.  I will deploy ACORN and the New Black Panthers to ensure anti-settlement politicians are elected in Israel.

39

But if the U.S. President asks them not to...  and I don't care who the President is...  they should treat the request with respect

Why? He's really not their president. They're not just saying that because they didn't vote for him.

If they want to live in a safe country that will value give them opportunities beyond their wildest dreams, they should apply for US citizenship. If they unconditional support for their territory, they should petition for statehood and follow our laws.   

At the risk of sounding like a lefty this is absurdly US-centric.

40    Remember, when you want advice on what is the proper conservative opinion, ask a raging liberal dumbass like me!

Works for us.

41 I don't understand why Israelis don't just move to the United States.  It's the best country....  and historically...  the safest place for Jewish people in recent history.

42 lol, I'd love to see ACORN and the black panthers try to make trouble in Israel.  Who was that dumb bitch the Israelis drove a bulldozer over again?

43

The Palestinians did that  and they are still in refugee camps 40 years later.

 

Thread winner there.

44 bt, unless you're some kind of retard, pick up a Bible and read the first couple of books in it.  That might give you some insight as to why they want to lie in their homeland.

Further, it's not a mater of the Isrealis demanding unconditional support that gets them funding.  It's the American voter who typically demands support for our only real friends in the middle east.

45 So now I suppose if Israel is nuked or otherwise attacked everything is hunky-dory because they "provoked" the terrorists and terror-masters?

46 'live' in their homeland.

Stupid keyboard.

47 They can and should do whatever they want.  But as Americans, we should not fund a client state that does not know how to do what it's told.  It only creates problems for us and makes us look week.  Let them defend themselves without our money or pressure. But with money comes strings, and rightly so.

48

Israel has become reliant on US foreign aid.

Possibly. I have no idea, but possibly. And your point is correct, that's not good for Israel.

And the USA has become reliant on more Israeli concessions to keep a bogus "peace process" alive.

Er, why do we need to keep a bogus "peace process" alive? I don't know you can say we're remotely 'reliant' on them except for entertainment/moral aggrandizing purposes.

And it's not like there's any other option to keep the peace process alive. The pallies ain't giving us concessions. Or if they do, they'll welch on them soon as they get their half.

Goddamn thieving Welsh.

49 Just to emphasize the point:

Israel has expressed interest several times in selling the Phalcon AWACS system (which is better than the American system) to China, but backed off after America said no, even to the point of paying a serious financial penalty to the Chinese for breaking the deal.

Israel's surveillance satellites are some of the best in the world, and they are willing to share the data with allies like India.

The Tavor family of assault rifles is better than the M-16, and Israel has become expert in upgrading obsolete Soviet tanks with modern electronic packages.

In short, if Israel wanted to sell arms to China (which has a reasonably good relationship with Israel), the US would be screwed with a spiked baseball bat. It is ONLY the close ties between Israel and the US that have prevented such an outcome.

50

I don't understand why Israelis don't just move to the United States. 

Um,  because they want their own country? Also because maybe, no. Everyone can't just move here as the solution to everything. I'll get pissy.

Pissy-er.

It's the best country....

It's not even Jewish.

You are lacking a critical perspective.

51 If this is "US-centric," what in the world do you call moving to a part of the world where you are surrounded by people who hate you and then insisting that it is the only place that you can live?  The idea that Jewish people BELONG in Israel, as opposed to safer, more hospitable countries seems much worse than admitting the fairly obvious point:

The United States is the best country (even with the current president) for ANYBODY who wants to live with a great degree of freedom (provided they are content to leave other people alone). [As an aside: My great grandpa, a Jew) came to the U.S. from Germany and found it a much better home, even before the Nazis took hold of German culture and society].

Saying that this group of people or that group of people is entitled to land by virtue of their racial or ethnic history seems to run contrary to the kind of Enlightenment thinking that makes a country like the US possible (and, more importantly, it paves the way for the very idea that people are free to believe what they want).

52 bt,

The United States has been the most hospitable place for Jews in the last century, true.

But before then, Germany was rather nice.

Hindsight is 20/20. If you'd rather not wait to see how it turns out, you have to control your own destiny.

53 I can't believe people would say that Jews need a "Jewish" country.  It's like saying that we need a Wise Latina on the Supreme Court because the US has a lot of Latinos.

54

And someone asks why we give Egypt and Israel money.  We give it to both of them as part of a non-treaty commitment growing out of the Camp David accords.  This made sense in the Cold War b/c lots of Arab nationalist states were in the Soviet orbit.  After 1989, this makes no sense at all and we have no treaty obligation at issue.  Egypt and Israel won't go to war. They also don't like each other very much.  No nation-state has attacked Israel in a long time conventionally, not since '73 to be exact. 

So let both nations go their way, go to war if they choose, and do it without our money, our perceived alliance, or blessing.  It's not the Cold War, most of the stupid shit in the world does not matter at all.  I'd no more get involved there than in some stupid border war in Africa or Honduras or Iran or Thailand or anywhere else. Nor would I imagine any of these conflicts are high stakes or involve major moral issues, because almost none of them do.  It's power politics among small countries with few resources. Whoever runs the show in the Suez better let us through; other than that, I could give a flying f**k.

This crap about our special relationship with Israel is nonsense, btw. We do everything, they do nothing.  Even Spain and Australia sent troops to Vietnam. Greece sent troops to Korea.  Where was Israel?  And in the Middle East they mostly have to sit on the sidelines because they piss off all of our other ad hoc allies there.

55

They can and should do whatever they want.

Exactly. Don't forget "will" along with can and should. No foreign country exists for our benefit..

But as Americans, we should not fund a client state that does not know how to do what it's told. 

Er, lemme quote Mastiff.

In short, if Israel wanted to sell arms to China (which has a reasonably good relationship with Israel), the US would be screwed with a spiked baseball bat.

They're an ally, not a pet.

56 bt @ 51 theres been jews in the holy land continuously for pretty much 3 thousand years. this is supported by history and by archeological evidence. Much of the land the jews "settled in" was purchased fair and square. MAny were ejected from their home countries in the ME with just the clothes on their backs, all their assets stolen. They want to live in their historical homeland.
AND WHY NOT?
we didnt come from here. And we didnt care a fig what the indians said about it. go cry about that. its a greater injustice.
Thats the jews place in all the world its their historical home. Anyone who says different has bought into propaganda and lies.
If you belive them you have too.

57 Enlightenment thinking that makes a country like the US possible

That's some funny shit right there.  People can live free anywhere in the world they choose to, if they are willing sufficient force to bear on those who would impede their freedom.  As long as the Israelis choose to live in the land that God set aside for them, I will support them by leaning on my government to support them, and there's not a thing you pussy pacifists can do about it.

By the way ask the tribals who occupied North America before the settlers got hear about the Enlightenment thinking of yours.

58 Mastiff,  I agree about controlling your own destiny.  But that also means taking responsibility for it.

People think that just because the Bible is rooted in a geographical region, that we have to risk all this life and treasure fighting over which of several groups should have a claim to that region.

When, in fact, the United States proves that metaphysical claims to land and blood matter less than the actual will and efforts of people controlling their own destiny. 

59

This crap about our special relationship with Israel is nonsense, btw. We do everything, they do nothing.  Even Spain and Australia sent troops to Vietnam. Greece sent troops to Korea.  Where was Israel? 

Wow, someone even dumber than I am!  I didn't think it was possible.

 

60

Does anyone doubt that Israel would sell us out so fast to China, Russia, or anyone else if it were to there advantage?  Have they ever inconvenienced themselves for us (placating us to keep the gravy train flowing hardly counts; that's just called "cost benefit" analysis)?  It's stupid American Evangelicals who get misty-eyed for Israel; Israelis are hard-headed and un-Romantic about us and everyone else in the world.   We can learn a thing or two from them, and that starts with cutting off the money we get nothing from in return.

I remember when Israel pulled out of South Lebanon in the late 90s.  They basically left their proxy army, the SLA, there to be harassed, killed, and prosecuted by the Lebanese.  Some great friend they are, huh?  But they're looking out for number one, always, and stupid people should stop confusing themselves with our special relationship.  They don't view it that way.

61 Great refutation there poon.  Now tell me when and where they ever stuck their neck out for us. Osirik doesn't count, even if we were very short-sighted.  Indeed, that proves my point:  they do what they want and we give them money, the conditions for which they ignore.  It's the tail wagging the dog. 

62 Hey, bt. The problem is not Jewish irredentism, but Muslim irredentism. The Muslims once controlled that patch of land and want it back because the Koran commands them to reclaim it. After that, it's on to Andalusia.

The Jews were in "Palestine" 3000 years before Islam existed. Saying all the Hebes should leave Hebron or all the Jews should leave Judea is like saying all the Irish should have left Ireland when England loomed over them.

63 For Roach's next trick, he will ask why Israel didn't send any troops to Iraq or Afghanistan, those filthy neo-con chickenhawks!

64 So, what, Methos?   We need to give Leonard Peltier nukes?  To make up for history?

Think about your logic.

The idea that people have claims to land based on some metaphysical nonsense was on its way out with the Magna Carta.  And, in my humble opinion, it seems less and less true every year.

65 I can't believe people would say that Jews need a "Jewish" country.

I like the cut of your jib as well.

66 Blink?  I would think that the Israeli's just told Barry, "Go get fucked".

67

Even Spain and Australia sent troops to Vietnam. Greece sent troops to Korea.  Where was Israel?

Dude that was 40 years ago.

At the time of the Korean war Israel as a nation was less then 10 years old.

At the time we were running into Vietnam the country, still not much older, had just fought off an existential invasion from like 5 other countries, and back in that time period had fought with them several times and did not have the total dominance it does now.

Where the hell has Taiwan fought for us? South Korea?

Hell, where are the fricken Germans getting our back? French?

The Israeli's took out Iraq's nuke program, may yet take out Iran's, give us a wealth of intelligence (not just on the middle east) and trade elite defense tech with only us and our allies.

And I really fucking doubt Franco sent troops to Vietnam now that I think about that. What the hell are you talking about?

68 i think you guys are missing something. If israel doesn't depend on America's money, they will go elsewhere. They will go to the country with one of the largest non israeli jewish population in the world. Russia. And what happens if israel becomes a russian ally? they sell all their and our technology that we have given them to russia, who in turn sells it to everyone else(read:China).   They will act in their own best interests and can you blame them? I wish America would act in her own best interest. We need to get our troops out of europe, I am sick of subsidizing the EU's security. They bitch about us all the time, well lets give them the opportunity to make big decisions themselves. Also let them blow money on defense. Everyone complains about the cost of our military, but no one mentions the fact that at least one billion people are under our security umbrella(Europe, Japan, Korea, America, Canada).  IF we are going to abandon allies, lets at least abandon the right ones. I am looking in your direction france and germany.

69

Look it up, Franco did.  It was a small contingent.  South Korea did too for the record. 

Greece was still smarting from a major civil war with the communists, incidentally in 1950, but it still sent troops to Korea to help save them from the Communists.

The reason Israel did not help us out for shit in the Cold War until '67 was that they did not think the commies were such bad guys.  A good number of Israelis were ex-Communists from Russia and Poland.  Their legislature had a friggin' day to honor Stalin at his death in the 50s.  Look it all up and quit believing the bullshit.

France was a fair weather firend in the Cold War. We don't give them $3B a year, incidentally.

Germany was the front lines of the Cold War. Their constitution did not allow foreign deployments.  They should do more now though.  Oh yeah, we don't give them a few bil a year either.

70

I can't believe people would say that Jews need a "Jewish" country.

 Dude. No, Jews do not need a Jewish country. However Israel was founded on the concept of being a damn Jewish country. They resurrected the dead language of Hebrew.

Just one of I-don't-know-how-many reasons all the Israeli's don't just move to Florida - it's not a Jewish state revolving around Hebrew culture and religion.

Why the flying hell did the pilgrims want a Protestant New Zion? Should have just stayed in England.

71 Look, I am sympathetic with the Irish, too.  But I don't know that Ireland in its current state is much more than a state in the EU.  I don't know that, for all their resistance, they got much more than socialism and an ethnically-flavored pseudo-sovereignty.  Being Irish in the United States looks a lot better than Irish in Ireland, unless, of course, you have a sentimental attachment to the landscape and accent.

I just don't buy the idea that cultures need to be preserved.  People are, first and foremost, individuals.  It doesn't matter WHERE you live, so long as you can live freely and can prosper.

When people get too hung up on all these other identity markers, they start forcing themselves to accept a lot of other baggage that is not necessarily conducive to freedom. 

[An anecdote: I have a gay friend who was hectored by many of his friends that his monogamous relationship was an affront to "gay culture."  Doesn't that sound like a lot of nonsense?  Should he accept this "ethnic" designation to preserve the sentimental notions of his "community"...  or should he just do whatever he wants?]

72

it's not a Jewish state revolving around Hebrew culture and religion.

Language. I meant to say language.

Which is not a small thing. Last fricken thing I want is to press 3 for "7^~7^~77".

73 I remember when Israel pulled out of South Lebanon in the late 90s.  They basically left their proxy army, the SLA, there to be harassed, killed, and prosecuted by the Lebanese.  Some great friend they are, huh?

Like we did in Vietnam and the Democrats wanted to do in Iraq?  That's the way politics works.  You can depend on individuals, but you damn sure can't depend on countries, especially democracies.

Yeah, the Israelis will sell stuff to our adversaries if we stop bribing them.  And what would you expect?  That's one of the reasons we give them money.

74 "Why the flying hell did the pilgrims want a Protestant New Zion?"

Sure they wanted it....  but they didn't get their way.  It's fine if you want to be a Pilgrim in your own house or whatever.  But I am pretty glad that the United States is NOT the Protestant New Zion.  It is quite the opposite.  And we are all better off for it.  If I want to go to Catholic Church, I don't have to worry about being burned alive by some guy with a buckle on his hat because of his strange prophetic vision.

75 Just look at that list of recepients of foreign aid who have done SO MUCH for us and stuck their necks for us so many times. Unlike those pesky Jew-rats who just want to grab the moneys from the clenched fist of us hardworking Aryans.

1. Iraq 18 Billion
2. Egypt 1.84 Billion
3. Afganistan 0.98 Billion
4. Pakistan 0.70 Billion
5. Colombia 0.57 Billion
6. Sudan 0.50 Billion
7. Jordan 0.48 Billion
8. Uganda 0.25 Billion
9. Kenya 0.24 Billion
10. Ethiopia 0.19 Billion
11. South Africa 0.19 Billion
12. Peru 0.19 Billion
13. Indonesia 0.18 Billion
14. Bolivia  0.18 Billion
15. Nigeria 0.18 Billion
16. Zambia 0.18 Billion

76

I am deeply concerned with the Israelis building this settlement. Deeply concerned.

Anyway, on to all the other shit I'm fucking up domestically...

77

ethnically-flavored pseudo-sovereignty

Look, you want to complain about the hegemony of the EU I'm with you.

But your speaking of most of the world's government's raison d'etre here.

It's not just about ethnicity but culture. People might, y'know, wanna live under a government by, of and for people like them. You wouldn't elect an Amish guy to be Mayor of Las Vegas.

78 I'm sure you'll tell me who Leonard Peltier is in some effort to seem impressive.  I'm not sure what history you think my support for God's people is 'making up for.'  If you mean the Holocaust, then say so, because I don't think anyone here has said we should support them because we feel bad about what the Europeans did to them.  Certainly the Europeans don't support them, out of guilt or any other reason.

Anyone's god is whatever they put their faith in most.  I can promise you that if I and the other faithful in America have to choose between the God of Abraham and the false idol progressives wish to make of the federal government, we are going to go our separate ways and it will be as unpleasant for you 'Enlightenment' people as America's First Revolutionary War was for the British.

Alternatively you might rub a couple of brain cells together and figure out that the few free people in the world, like the Israelis and us Americans have to watch each other's backs against the barbarian hordes.  You should be able to manage that even without 'metaphysical' awareness.

79 . Iraq 18 Billion (they do a shit load, dying every day alongside our troops)
2. Egypt 1.84 Billion (I agree, cut them off)
3. Afganistan 0.98 Billion  (same as Iraq, but they're starting to piss me off)
4. Pakistan 0.70 Billion (not sure on this one.  Sometimes they help, and their nukes make me nervous.  They need a bribe, but I dont' trust them)
5. Colombia 0.57 Billion (they help fight drug war every day; that's where money goes)
6. Sudan 0.50 Billion (agreed, fuck 'em, but it's a lot less)
7. Jordan 0.48 Billion (agreed, fuck 'em, but it's a lot less)
8. Uganda 0.25 Billion (agreed, fuck 'em, but it's a lot less)
9. Kenya 0.24 Billion (agreed, fuck 'em, but it's a lot less)
10. Ethiopia 0.19 Billion (agreed, fuck 'em, but it's a lot less)
11. South Africa 0.19 Billion (agreed, fuck 'em, but it's a lot less)
12. Peru 0.19 Billion (drug war)
13. Indonesia 0.18 Billion (agreed, fuck 'em, but it's a lot less)
14. Bolivia  0.18 Billion (drug war)
15. Nigeria 0.18 Billion (agreed, fuck 'em, but it's a lot less)
16. Zambia 0.18 Billion (agreed, fuck 'em, but it's a lot less)

80 Aren't you glad we got rid of the village idiot Bush and now have "Shmart Diplomacy"!?!

81 Go to just about any big city in the US if you want to see a healthy, thriving Jewish culture.  Almost anywhere you go, you can find religion, language, culture, food, and people in high concentrations, getting along happily, building safe communities without worrying about some whacko trying to push them into the ocean.  In fact, this is true in many countries in the world.  Why get hung up on a particular piece of land? 

82 FIRST!




to blink.

83 I hate the englightenment.  I have no problem with the Jews re-conquering their ancient homeland and making an ethno-nationalist state.  America should be an ethno-nationalist state chiefly of Christian Europeans.  Everyone else is a minority that may add something to this mix, but should conduct itself accordingly and respectfully.  Jews seem to do OK.  Muslims, not so much.  But America should not apologize to its Jews for being an ethno-nationalist state without mass immigration of Third Worlders, and neither should Israel. In this respect, most American Jews have egregious double standards, but unlike some other right-wingers, I would not punish Israel or bemoan their perfectly reasonable self-defensive efforts because of the hypocricy of American Jews.

84

I mean hell. Why have all this nonsense with the Mullahs? Why don't we just move all the Iranians to, say, Wyoming.

Then they can have democracy and run around throwing shoes at people and screaming Death to New Coke.

China wants Taiwanese territory? One China? No problemo! We'll just move them all to Detroit and hand over an empty island.

85

53 I can't believe people would say that Jews need a "Jewish" country.  It's like saying that we need a Wise Latina on the Supreme Court because the US has a lot of Latinos.

You stupid fucking bastard. Tell me you dumb motherfucker, why do the muslims need islamic states?

86 Pay attention now! The Iraqis are actually doing us a favor fighting alongside US troops for their own people's sovereignty , and thus they deserve 18 billion $.

While the wicked rat-Jew creatures who have the chutzpah to fight for themselves without requiring US troops to die alongside them are teh evil monsters who deserve shit.

87

Well, to be fair, on the foreign aid thing, most of those African countries' totals are AIDS and malaria drugs, so that's cool.

Cut Pakistan and the Arab countries off.

88 10. Ethiopia 0.19 Billion (agreed, fuck 'em, but it's a lot less)

The Ethiopians have been backing us up over Somalia, to the point of invading to overthrow the latest "Islamic Courts" government a year or two back.  That's worth a few bucks in my book.

89

Seriously I bet a couple million tiny asian bankers could do wonders for Detroit.

90 I would add that it's unseemly to take too much pleasure in a foreign nation's disrespect of our President.  To me it's akin to the moveon.org freaks who get all giddy for someone like Hugo Chavez when he insults Bush.  Obama may suck, but he's our President and our representative initially.

91 Why do my dimmest sock puppets post in the Israel threads?

Rigid ideology is a brain killer?

92 I did not write Number 86.  Whoever runs this website, please take note of whoever # 86's IP address is. 

93 You are arguing with a spoof poon, Roach. Check the hashes.

It is normal and prudent for the US to take the side of and support democratic governments and freedom loving people everywhere to varying degrees. Such support is an end in itself since otherwise you cede the field to tyrannies. The fact that Israel abuts homicidal tyrannical regimes is a reason to support them more not less.

94

And while 0 IDF might have been with us in Vietnam....

How many GI's have died defending Israel? 0.

How many have died for Kuwait? Iraq? Vietnam? South Korea? How many died for France? Hell, what is Bosnia doing for us?

95 "God of Abraham and the false idol progressives"

That's a false dichotomy.

I don't think that government should be "religious" at all, but Christianity explicitly rejects the notion that redemption is some kind of genetic inheritance.  The God of Abraham is not just the God of Abraham, He's the God of everyone.  There is no geographically specific "promised land," except as an interesting piece of human history.  We all have access to the "promised land," now.

But maybe you don't agree.  You might have a really specific religious interpretation that you prefer.  The fact is, nobody should be required to live under your position, whatever it is, which I am quite certain in the grand scheme of world religions, is relatively eccentric.  (As is mine).

But the point is....  This Enlightenment ideal (that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable right like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness) is really nothing to scoff at.  Sure, it allow people to believe in "false idols," but on the bright side, it also lets us choose freely to follow God insofar as we can believe in Him.  Which is probably, from a purely human perspective, the best thing we've been able to come up with so far.

96 By the way, i wish to remind you of my previous sockpuppets: .

Sieg Heil, Aryan brothers!

97

Go to just about any big city in the US if you want to see a healthy, thriving Jewish culture.  Almost anywhere you go, you can find religion, language, culture, food, and people in high concentrations, getting along happily, building safe communities without worrying about some whacko trying to push them into the ocean.  In fact, this is true in many countries in the world.  Why get hung up on a particular piece of land? 

You might ask the Lebanese Christians, formerly the majority in the country, how this reasoning worked for them. Or the Euros today.

Give the Islamunist savages an inch, they will take a mile.

98 I disagree caspera.  I'm kind of isolationist, when our direct interests are not at stake, and the Cold War was exceptional.  It was we who faced an existential threat.  Other than demographics, I don't see that threat for Israel any more.  It can destroy Syria, Jordan, Egypt and anyone else it wants to if need be.  I don't concede Jordan or Lebanon are awful tyrannies, though the latter is a bit chaotic and harbors a few too many scum bags, i.e., Hezbollah.

99 Oh noes!  Roach is gonna sic the IP death squads after you wicked neo-cons!  Heil Roach!

100 # 94, does the USS Liberty count? How about the gas attack victims in Saudi in the First Gulf War?  The Marines in Lebanon in '83?

101 Poon, you are smart, and I'm stupid.  It shows in the rigor of everything you've written above.

102 'live' in their homeland.

Stupid keyboard.

Actually, "lie" in their homeland works too. Better to die defending their homeland than to suffer another 2000 year diaspora.

103

You are correct that you are stupid compared to poon.

 

Or even poon sockpuppets.

 

Or rocks. 

104 Roach,

I think you're debating with my rather dim sock puppet.

This is kind of a moot thread anyways if Iran really is developing nukes.

105 There should be no Islamic states, either.

Compare Turkey to Iran, and you can see how "good" secularism is...  not just for human happiness and prosperity...  but also for the general mood and tenor of religious thinking.  The Ayatollahs have gone whacko with nationalist religion and culture....  Turkey is much different.  Not perfect, but if you know any Jews living in Turkey, they'll tell you that it is a relatively safe place to live.

106 ^{94, does the USS Liberty count? How about the gas attack victims in Saudi in the First Gulf War?  The Marines in Lebanon in '83?}

^{Posted by: Roach at June 29, 2009 03:32 PM (3sYED)}

So, USS Liberty sailors died defending Israel? That's some nice history revisionism - because i thought USS Liberty was a freakin' spy ship.

107 No offense....  but doesn't Ace of Spades moderate content?  I know people disagree with me....  but there is this torrent of just vile nonsense flooding the comments.  It's disgusting and it adds nothing to the discussion.

108

61 Great refutation there poon.  Now tell me when and where they ever stuck their neck out for us. Osirik doesn't count, even if we were very short-sighted.  Indeed, that proves my point:  they do what they want and we give them money, the conditions for which they ignore.  It's the tail wagging the dog. 

Earth to the stupid fucking navel gazer, what do you think would happen in the middle east if Israel joined forces with the American military? Why do you suppose the US offered Israel protection during the first Gulf War, it wasn't because Israel couldn't defend itself?

And Osirik was a gift to the appeasniks and cowards worldwide that were unwilling to do the necessary thing.  

And Israel has contributed [per capita] more to humanity over the last 60 years in science, technology, medicine, engineering, literature, Nobel prize winners, etc than all musllim nations combined over the last 1000 years.

109

 No offense....  but doesn't Ace of Spades moderate content?  I know people disagree with me....  but there is this torrent of just vile nonsense flooding the comments. 

Go fuck yourself.

110

does the USS Liberty count? How about the gas attack victims in Saudi in the First Gulf War?  The Marines in Lebanon in '83?

Those were attacks on us by Islamists.

Now you can say they attacked us because of our friendship with Israel. However

1) They always have an excuse but they hate everyone for everything. Hell man, Israel is only the Little Satan. WE'RE the GREAT Satan. Why did they blow up a dance club in Bali? Because of Jews? No because they hate dancing (and everything) and like explosions.

2) You really OK with some foreign nutjobs dictating our foreign policy to us? Telling us who we can or can't be allies with under threat of terrorism?

Those people didn't die for our allegiance to Israel, they died for our right to ally ourselves with whomever we damn well please.

111 108 - do you think they really don't understand? They just have to have some pretence to say Israel is somehow anti-US. Because a Jew can never be good. The Jew is always on the side of the enemy, whoever the enemy is. You are trying to reason with pure Nazis here. Well spoken Nazis, but Nazis none-the-less.

112 No....  I won't Great Satan.  I just think there is no point to hearing people spout out nazi stuff.  I don't know if it is supposed to be some kind of joke or some kind of ironic thing.  Or if someone is just posting under a bunch of names to turn the discussion away from an actual discussion....  and into utter nonsense.  But I don't want my writing to appear alongside any kind of Aryan shit, no matter what the explanation is.

I know that past threads have been moderated for other racist/bigoted commentary.  This one should be, too.

113 I just watched "Waltz with Bashir."

114 bt

I get your points at an abstract level, but really you have to deal with people as they are. Everyone does it. They establish communities with people who look like them, eat the same food, have the same religion, and historical ties to the land they live on. The "mystic chords of memory" as Lincoln put it. It may not be rational, but it is simply the way people are. Again, if there are Chinese in China and Swedes in Sweden and French in France, why is it so weird to have Jews in Judea when they've been there for thousands of years? They shouldn't be there because their neighbors suck?

I think conservatives have an issue with ethnic identity politics acting as a short sighted zero sum game within a single polity, not with an ethnic identity historically associated with a particular geographical region, i.e. a nation. The latter has been the natural state of affairs of men throughout history.

115 Freddie, I think they do understand as you suggest and like you said they are sympathetic to portions of nazi ideology, for all I know they may be sympathetic to most of it.

116 I just watched Spongebob Squarepants.  Does anyone know of any "study guide" type sites for this show?  I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the plots.

117 Israel is too dependent on the U.S. and that has been to Israel's political detriment, because often the U.S. has pushed Israel in the wrong direction.  However, at least the U.S. does get something for its money to Israel, versus the complete and utter waste of Egypt, which is getting 1.5 billion in 2009 in military aid (to fight exactly who?) plus another few hundred million in cash and economic aid. 

I think I can get some nice sheets from Kmart or some such with Egyptian cotton in it.  That's worth every penny. 

And cockRoach, let's add up the rest of those nice countries...what's the total?  What are we getting out of it again?  Bolivia is doing what drug war stuff for us?  Evo Morales is a true U.S. friend of course, a true friend of our shitweasel Marxist President O, (speaking of which, I wonder if Honduras gets any money...Obama and Hillary are in a tiz about the booting out of their good friend, Zelaya, another jackbooted thug, so sad). 

Kenya, good coffee.  Sudan, now there's a regime of hope and change!  I'm sure the money is being put to good use there.  Indonesia, world's largest Muslim population...what the hell do they do to help us again? 

118 bt, if you want Nazi shit not to be written - stop writing Nazi shit. Your "Who the fuck needs Israel" crap is pure antisemitism, besides your pal Roach'es paranoid history revisionism tyrade. Don't like it here? Go back to Stormfront or something. And stop whining.

119 Roach you are perfectly welcome to believe what you want and lean on your representatives accordingly. 
I don't think that government should be "religious" at all
Yeah, take a good look at how Obama is regarded by his supporters and tell me again how they aren't looking to make me worship and pay tribute to him in return for being taken care of cradle to grave by his regime.
Christianity explicitly rejects the notion that redemption is some kind of genetic inheritance.  The God of Abraham is not just the God of Abraham, He's the God of everyone.  There is no geographically specific "promised land," except as an interesting piece of human history.  We all have access to the "promised land," now.
I didn't say anything about redemption.  I'm saying there is no reason to believe that God revoked the right of Abraham's covenant descendants to that land.  Much to the contrary, the restoration of Israel is held by many if not most Christians in America as the fulfillment of the dry bones prophecy.  None of which requires much in the way of interpretation, you can read the Bible yourself and it's quite clear.
Again, if you want to turn a blind eye to it, go right ahead.  We'll both lean on our representatives and see how it shakes out.

Now if you think it's somhow unseemly for the faithful in this country to have their voices heard (thus 'requiring you to live under my position' or something), well tough.

As for the occupier of the White House.  He is not my President and I will tell anyone willing to hear, particularly the people of Israel, Iran, and now Honduras, that he does not speak for me.  Frankly as long as he refuses to let his birth certificate be seen, I feel quite comfortable refusing to acknowledge him as so much as my countryman.

120 Yeah.  Maybe you are right, Caspera.  Maybe I just scratch my head and wonder why people have the urge to move some.  I have Finnish, Irish, German, Jewish, Native American, British, etc. in my ancestry....  and I just think it would be silly to want to try to "move" to some kind of homeland to feel complete. 

I could live anywhere, provided people were willing to leave me alone.  I like other culture and stuff...  but I just don't see the need to pretend like I am "Irish" (or X) to have a sense of myself.  I am who I am, and that is a combination of what my parents taught me, what I think and believe, the relationships I have now, and what I do for a living.  I'm an American...  which more or less means that I can be whatever I can become (and I don't need to live someplace specific or talk a specific language or eat specific foods)...  and I like that more than the alternatives.

It's why our country is far less whacked out than other countries.

But, I gotta go.  I just found out that a young man I know (airforce) has just died.  And I don't know where or why or how.  And instead just need to go cry.

121

You really OK with some foreign nutjobs dictating our foreign policy to us? Telling us who we can or can't be allies with under threat of terrorism?

I think we need to take the world and all its craziness as it is and not do things that risk our blood and treasure "on principle."  If it's too costly to be an ally to someone that costs a lot and gives us little in return, we should ditch them.  Sorry Georgia and Lithuania and Taiwan. 

I think that's the case with about 80-90% of our foreign aid and formal military alliances.  I'd ditch most of Europe, I sure as shit wouldn't allow Georgia in NATO, I'd let Africa return (or remain as the case may be) in the Stone Age, and I'd generally have the US remain aloof from most of the world's conflicts, including those of the Arab world and Israel.  The Cold War was unique and made seemingly irrelevant conflicts relevant because they potentially strengthened a major global competitor.  It's over. 

Islam can't project power if we protect our borders and give them a good wallop from time to time.  So we should not entangle with them any more than necessary as either allies or enemies.  Sell us your oil and STFU is my my basic foreign policy to Arabs and Iran.

Israel lives next door to these crazy people.  That's too bad for them. We don't, and we can have barriers, not least in the form of our oceans, our borders, and our customs officials, that make our defense from them much easier.  Countries surrounded by lunatics don't always last; sometimes they do.  The Swiss made it.  The Khazars, the Illyrians, the Ruthenians, and many others are a figment of our imagination. That's life.  No reason to bankrupt ourselves for Israel, a fair-weather friend at best.

122

And BT you're realling missing the point majorly to reduce Israel or Jewish culture to nothing more then Judaic religion.

They have their own language.

Do you want to speak spanish? Do you suppose immigrants learning English?

Whether you support it or not these people ressurected a completely dead language on the basis of restoring their culture, I think they may intend to speak it.

While it IS a distinctly Jewish state, and not strictly secular, Israel is hardly a repressed theocracy. However their is an entire Israeli culture. And a damn strong one, what with 100% enlistment in the IDF, a shared existential threat to their well being, a history of persecution, etc. Tends to make people band together pretty tightly.

Even if you take the religious Zionist aspect out of it (Although many do believe this is the land God chose for them).

Their land, land where they grew up, land that they fought for, land their relatives fought for, died for, land where they've built their own civilization which is distinctly theirs, and you're saying they should just say 'aw, fuck it' and move to Florida.

123 118 bt, if you want Nazi shit not to be written - stop writing Nazi shit. Your "Who the fuck needs Israel" crap is pure antisemitism, besides your pal Roach'es paranoid history revisionism tyrade. Don't like it here? Go back to Stormfront or something. And stop whining.

-------

I never said anything of the sort, Freddie.  You are getting me confused with someone else.  That's incredibly dishonest.  Now, I have to go.

124 It's disgusting and it adds nothing to the discussion.

Cry me a river.

125

If it's too costly to be an ally to someone that costs a lot and gives us little in return, we should ditch them.  Sorry Georgia and Lithuania and Taiwan. 

You're an idiot.

Russia is at worst an enemy, at best a rival. In no way truly an ally. Georgia is geopolitically well placed. Handing over Georgia to Russia won't make the Russians less hostile to us, just less vulnerable to us. And what does Georgia even cost us?

As for places like Taiwan, they contribute more then you realize. Their economy is tremendously huge. You know how much shit is made in Taiwan?

You probably don't understand economics, division of labor or any of that, so you don't realize how Taiwan effects your pocketbook personally.

126 I DON'T THINK YOU'VE GOT THE GRAPES!

127 Roach,

Your "only intervene when it directly affects you" approach is pretty much what allowed Germany's invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1939 to balloon into a world war that sucked the US in merely two years later and eventually killed 50 million people.

The lesson, for good or for ill, that the US drew from that conflict is that supporting those who resist tyranny is probably worth pursuing as an end in itself because expansionist movements tend to stop only when they meet fierce resistance.

If the Islamists take over Israel, their thirst will not be slaked, it will become more acute. They will move onto Bosnia and Andalusia. The Cold War is just one example of an expansionist tyranny pushing, probing, and testing the free West. Islamism is another. You may not perceive it as an existential threat to the US, but it may quickly grow into one, especially with atom bombs at their disposal. Remember, it was only three short years from "Peace in our time" isolationism to existential threat at Pearl Harbor. We'll see, I suppose, when Iran finally has the bomb, eh?

128 No, Entropy, you're right.  Not to make generalizations, but honestly, I think it would be a great thing if the population of Israel became US citizens. On the other hand, the Israelis who bought the land that is now the state of Israel are certainly entitled to defend it.  I just hate when people get to giddy about an ally "giving us the finger."  Even if Obama is not the best ally to Israel, I am going to be loyal to the US before any other country.

But, like I said, I feel like shit right now.

129

The Muslims have the bomb.  They, unlike the Soviets, don't have sophisticated economies, serious power projection capability, or any ability to deal with modernity.  In other words, if the Soviet Union was a genuinely threatening murderer, the Muslims are like someone committing "attempted murder" with a Voodoo doll.  So long as we don't let them into our house-as Europe has stupidly done and as Israel can't really avoid--we're mostly safe playing defense.

The Munich analogy makes sense only if we think the Muslims can get it together organizationally and technologically.  I don't think they can.  Our only weakness are our borders and our failure to discriminate against Muslims on account of their inferior civilization.  Another analogy might be WWI, where lots of big powerful nations though that what happened between Serbia and Austria was so darned important it was worth having a meat-grinder world war, lest their honor be damaged.  Sometimes it's better to let things go, and this goes doubly for the United States which can afford through its geography and its nuclear arsenal to avoid most of the world's conflicts. 

Our goal should be to do right, but chiefly to do right to those whom we're obliged to: our countrymen, our children, our nation. Israel is a separate nation with distinct people and sometimes different interests.  We need not conflate their problems with ours.

130 bt, being loyal to the United States does not mean being loyal to Barack Obama.  A fair number of us recognize that those are in fact opposing positions.

131 bt,

Speaking for myself, I love certain features of America's older cities: the faded ghostly images of hundred year old advertisements on ancient red brick buildings, old bridges, art deco and beaux arts buildings, carriage houses and carriage ways, etc. I'd be pretty bummed out if I had to move to Orlando. Sometimes you just fall in love with a place.

I am sorry about your friend. Take care.

132 the Muslims are like someone committing "attempted murder" with a Voodoo doll

Roach,

More like a crazy man with a loaded gun. The Muslims have suicidal tendencies and religious fanaticism which as we saw on September 11th can be an effective substitute for money.

Anyways, the Muslims, especially in the Middle East, do have money and lots of it so they can do an end-run around their own disfunction and still project power -- they'll just have to pay for it. Appeasing them at any stage will only cause a future headache because they'll get encouragement. "Inshallah" and all that.

Rather than disengage I actually think the West should mau-mau them at every opportunity because they are assholes. Israeli is our proxy warrior in this fight. Don't grant Islamist irredentists a single victory or it is only matter of time before show up on our doorstep again.

133 10 I think the $3 billion America hands to Israel each year is now in play.

Go fuck yourself.

134

@75:  Uh, the Afghans did shoulder a lot of the burden of actually fighting the Soviet Union, you know.  And significant numbers of Afghans were fighting the Taliban and what became al-Qaida before we got involved.  Before he got clipped, Mohammed Shah Masood warned us about what could come out there.

Unlike some on your list, they've earned some scratch.

135 I thought you "conservatives" were in favor of smaller government, Uncle"facts"

Roach,  Which Muslims are you talking about?

There's over one billion of them, surely you aren't lumping them all together, are you?

136 Poon why are you still here, and not fucking yourself? Didn't I tell you to go fuck yourself?

137 There were those in Israel in the 90's who advocated that Israel not accept foreign aid. I agree. Israel has a relatively high standard of living and the diplomatic price tag of the aid under Carter/Clinton/Obama has cost Israel far more in treasure and manpower in entering into Camp David/Oslo/Annapolis/Wye agreements. The Democratic administrations have pressured Israel to please the Saudis. I do not personally believe that  this pressure is in the geopolitical interest of the US, but it is a factor which has to be dealt with. Since Jimmy Carter, we have entered into some kind of Affirmative Action foreign policy in favor of Muslims (Bosnia,Iraq,Afghanastan,Iran, Palestinians,Pakistan etc), instead of forging alliances with those who would resist Jihad such as Serbia,India, Georgia, Israel, the Kurds, etc.

138 @110: "does the USS Liberty count? How about the gas attack victims in Saudi in the First Gulf War?  The Marines in Lebanon in '83?

Those were attacks on us by Islamists."

Uh, no.....The Israeli air force and navy attacked the USS Liberty.  If Islamists pulled that one off, it is the greatest covert op in the history of anything, anywhere.

http://tinyurl.com/zny38

139 Fa Cube, the Israeli attacked the Liberty in the same way the US bombed the Chinese in Italy during the Bosnia campaign-its called  an accident.

140

It was kind of joke, the USS Liberty thing, as in they died and their deaths were covered up to protect US-Israeli relations. 

I have no opinion on whether it was purposeful or an accident, but most of the survivors lean the purposeful way.  I know jets go fast, combat is chaotic, and I don't think preventing us from monitoring what was going on was worth it to Israel for the relations hit, so I find that kind of hard to believe, but I can't be sure.

141 140: None of the Liberty sailors ever thought it was an accident, and the Israeli excuses were all exceedingly weak.  The attacks themselves were deliberate; however, the order to attack might have been a mistake.  Generally speaking, ordering your forces to shoot up something belonging to your biggest ally isn't a particularly shrewd move.

142

141 140: None of the Liberty sailors ever thought it was an accident, and the Israeli excuses were all exceedingly weak.  The attacks themselves were deliberate;

You scum sucking propagandist; I guess it's not your fault being the offspring of inbred swine. There were approx a dozen top secret investigations into the Liberty incident; ALL concluded it was an accident.

The USS Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian vessel; all voice recordings between command and the Israeli soldiers show without any question that they felt they were attacking an Egyptian ship. The Americans were told to stay 100 miles from the war zone; the USS Liberty, mistakenly or deliberately, came within several miles of Israel and DID NOT convey their movements to the Israelis, which is where the confusion started.

Now asshole, go get your daddy's .45, walk into the closet and do the right thing.

143

 In other words, if the Soviet Union was a genuinely threatening murderer, the Muslims are like someone committing "attempted murder" with a Voodoo doll.  So long as we don't let them into our house-as Europe has stupidly done and as Israel can't really avoid--we're mostly safe playing defense.

Tell that to the nearly 3000 murdered on 9/11; more than were killed at Pearl Harbor.

144

and I just think it would be silly to want to try to "move" to some kind of homeland to feel complete.......bt

You ignorant little slut, it's not about "feeling complete" you faggot, it's about having our ancestral home where we can live free from persecution, oppression, Holocaust's and endemic anti-Semitism.

145

"And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying: ‘Command the children of Israel, and say unto them: When ye come into the land of Canaan, this shall be the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan according to the borders thereof. Thus your south side shall be from the wilderness of Zin close by the side of Edom, and your south border shall begin at the end of the Salt Sea eastward; and your border shall turn about southward of the ascent of Akrabbim, and pass along to Zin; and the goings out thereof shall be southward of Kadesh-barnea; and it shall go forth to Hazar-addar, and pass along to Azmon; and the border shall turn about from Azmon unto the Brook of Egypt, and the goings out thereof shall be at the Sea. And for the western border, ye shall have the Great Sea for a border; this shall be your west border. And this shall be your north border: from the Great Sea ye shall mark out your line unto mount Hor; from mount Hor ye shall mark out a line unto the entrance to Hamath; and the goings out of the border shall be at Zedad; and the border shall go forth to Ziphron, and the goings out thereof shall be at Hazar-enan; this shall be your north border. And ye shall mark out your line for the east border from Hazar-enan to Shepham; and the border shall go down from Shepham to Riblah, on the east side of Ain; and the border shall go down, and shall strike upon the slope of the sea of Chinnereth eastward; and the border shall go down to the Jordan, and the goings out thereof shall be at the Salt Sea; this shall be your land according to the borders thereof round about.’ And Moses commanded the children of Israel, saying: ‘This is the land wherein ye shall receive inheritance by lot, which the LORD hath commanded to give unto the nine tribes, and to the half-tribe; for the tribe of the children of Reuben according to their fathers’ houses, and the tribe of the children of Gad according to their fathers’ houses, have received, and the half-tribe of Manasseh have received, their inheritance; the two tribes and the half-tribe have received their inheritance beyond the Jordan at Jericho eastward, toward the sun-rising.’

146 Israel doesn't get welfare from the US, it's a reciprocal arrangement. They give us intelligence $ tech for weaponry, we SELL weaponry to Israel at discount. I don't think there is any simply "giving them $" at all. We also give Israel loan guarantees (not even loans themselves) which they have never defaulted on.

Whereas our pay to Egypt is a billon dollar bribe to not attack Israel. Btw Obama wants to give a billion dollars to whichever corrupt goons are running Gaza this wk. Now there's a good use of foreign aid.

Israel has the highest # of high tech startups in the world besides the US- that's not per capita, that's TOTAL. In a country of 7 mil people. It has the highest no.of biomedical companies in the world. Highest per capita book sales in the world. Seems useful to protect that from destruction.

Israeli tech invented cellphone technology. There's a big Intel plant there. Other US Companies invest there- why shouldn't we protect our commercial interests? In fact due to more conservative lending practices & less regulation than Obama is trying to enact here, if you are a VC you are better off in Israel right now even tho they are not all that free market. You are also better off in Asia but Israelis speak English & have a great work ethic. So we get a lot for our loan guarantees & militry collaboration. Not least we prevent the whole middle east turning Islamist because Lebanon could not survive if Israel went.

I've spent some time

147 They give us intelligence $ tech for weaponry

???

148 I've spent some time there & I like Israelis & the the country itself is beautiful & one of the most multicultural you could hope to see. Go visit - I bet you will not come back saying we should move this to Florida or even NYC. although there are lots of Israelis in NYC at any given time. You can get a 7-10 day tourist pkg pretty cheap & the dollar is ok against the shekel right now.

No I am not from Israel, do not work for the Israel Tourist Board or have any relatives there. But when I read the usual stuff like above I get protective.

149 Even Spain and Australia sent troops to Vietnam. Greece sent troops to Korea. Where was Israel?

When Israel was getting pummelled from all sides back in the 6-day war, where were we? Where were our troops?

I don't recall NATO rushing into Transjordan or Egypt to do battle either.

150 Poon half Israelis are from Arab countries. Most Iraqi Jews are in Israel. A lot of Iranian Jews who still have family there. Also tons of Russian Jews. Israel keeps tabs on what is going on in the Pal territories, meaning they know a lot about Hamas & Hezbollah. Plus they just have good intel services. So lots of intel about places we are interested In.

As some previous comments mentioned Israel takes US weapons tech & makes it better. But we can manufacture things like fighter planes which they cannot reproduce so they have to beg us to sell them

151 Yehudit,

I think the trouble Israel's illegal settlements cause America negates the value of any intelligence it may provide us.

America needs to distance itself from Israel if Israel continues down the path it has chosen.

Cutting off the aid money is just the first step.

152 Also unfortunately much in demand medical expertise in effects of terrorist bombs. I think also highest no. of PhDs per capita. I need to look all that up; the data might have changed a bit recently but it can't be a lot. A good source of info about current Israeli accomplshments is Israel21c website. (A lot of the brain power is the Russian immigrants)

Israel has good doctors whose bedside manners suck. fresh fruit & veggies to die for esp tomatoes. stands where you can buy freshsqeezed orange & pomegranate juice. Everyone talks about how brusque Israelis are but they are also very corny: have public sing-alongs. Adults go to their parents for Friday night dinner. If you are single they try to matchmake. It is extremely child-centered, parents take them everywhere & I don't see that disapproving attitude many adults aim at for example kids in restaurants. Even secular adults marry young & the norm is 3-4
kids.

OTOH they have a frustratingly stupid bureacracy & repair & construction are sloppy & work ethic does not apply. And there is like 1 degree of separation for natives & if you immigrate later in life it's hard to break in. Just as a visitor i have experienced "oh yeah my mom knows her cousin" the ultra-religious keep trying to get control of public institutions, the secular sneer at religion; it is a constant societal war. Their parliamentory system is like Italy's: it is totally unwirkable but somehow it lurches along. And the whole country is the size of NJ it can be claustraphobic

Do I think of moving? I like being at the center of everything in NYC. but a lot of Americans have one foot in Israel & one here: family, or a 2nd apartment.

153

Yehudit, excellent comments. Poon is a little nazi, keep that in mind when reading his posts. He'll never condemn islamic terrorists but if an Israeli so much as steps on the toe of an Arab............

 

"The Romans in full view of the crowds in the Coliseum were going to feed a Jew to the lions. They dug a hole five feet deep, put in the Jew standing up and buried him to his neck, so that only his head was above ground. They then let out the lion that was starved for two days. The lion with his mouth drooling went straight for the Jew and circled his prey before eating it. When it got close, the Jew bit it. It yelped and ran away. From the stands of the Coliseum, someone screamed, "Jew, Fight Fair!"

 

http://tinyurl.com/cjwc9

154 I'm not sure the day Bernie Madoff gets sentenced is the proper day to hold a pride parade, Satan & Yehudit.

155

154 I'm not sure the day Bernie Madoff gets sentenced is the proper day to hold a pride parade, Satan & Yehudit.

Only a little nazi worthless piece of shit would suggest that Madoff's crime is in any way related to him being a Jew. He's a criminal you demented shitstain. Of course you'd never suggest that homosexual criminals, Muslim criminals, Latino criminals, are representative of their groups. This type of despicable smear you reserve for Jews being the swastika wearing cockroach that you are.   

156 You have a wonderful imagination, Satan.

The way you call everybody a Nazi and put words in their mouths is truly a gift.

Your talents are being wasted.

And I'm sure you never blame all Muslims for the actions of a few radicals, do you?

157 ƒ�ƒ‹—F—ö�l—ö�l’T‚µ—ö�l•å�W—ö�l�Љî

158 I think the trouble Israel's illegal settlements cause America negates the value of any intelligence it may provide us.

What trouble is that?  And illegal?  What law are you citing, poon?

In any event, I don't think that it was settlements that caused the Arabs to start three wars with the Israelis.  Its the existence of Israel that infuriates the Arabs, not settlements. 

Just like Republicans dealing with Democrats, it doesn't matter what they do.  Arabs and liberals hate the Jews and will find something to justify their hatred.  The Israelis might as well do what they think is in your own interest. 

Nazi stooges like lima and the poon will curse no matter what.

159 liberals hate the Jews

Right, toby,

That's why 90% of Jewish-Americans vote for the Democratic party every single election.

I think you guys are starting to believe your own propaganda.

160 That's why 90% of Jewish-Americans vote for the Democratic party every single election.

So, 90% are apparently fools.  Take your nazi jew-hating self somewhere else, fuckface.

161 It sounds like you are the hater, toby.

162 It sounds like you are the hater, toby.

Indeed, I seriously hate nazi cum-suckers like yourself.  I consider it a feature, not a bug.

I'm cursing you up site.  Come on up, dickweed.

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