1 I e-mailed my Representative. Don't think it will do much good since it's Lynn Woolsey. More liberal than Pelosi!

2 RedState has the video up where Obama says "My plan, Cap and Trade, will cause electricity rates to skyrocket and the cost will be passed on to consumers."

That video must be made viral.  I have shown it to 3 Obama supporters who have, because of that video, quit supporting Obama.

Until that video they never believed me when I said, "Obama says things and the media just doesn't report it.  He really is radical."

3 Ivar Giaever might be the best name ever.

4

Scientist who are afraid to speak frankly... yikes.

Watts Up With That has a great take down of the EPA which was not being honest with the science and the public comment period about regulating CO2.

And we want to hand over healthcare to these people?

5 Folks,

DON'T BE FATALIST.  It's not a done deal yet, and no one ever accomplished anything by fatalism.

Furthermore, DON'T EMAIL.  CALL THEM.  Use the zip code Congress phone finder if necessary.

Point out that voting for a 300-page economy-killing bill nobody's had time to read is something that will come back to haunt them.  People have soured already on the last monstrous unread bill (porkulus).

6 Nice to see "conservatives" embracing science for a change, even if it's the wrong science.

7 Liberalism feeds of fear, ignorance, and envy.

AGW is a classic example of a made-up crisis used to increase wealth and power in the hands of the ruling elite.

They can't do it without the help of millions of stupid idiots and they know they will never run out of their little helpers.

8 agree with 5, call call call, it worked on amnesty, we have to call

The number for the House switchboard – which can transfer you to the offices of  your CongressCritter – is (202) 225-3121.

HR 2454 The American Clean Energy & Security Act (Previously named CAP & TRADE) is out of committee and coming to the floor of the House of Representatives for a Fast Track vote on Friday, June 26th.

Call your Congressman and tell them NO today!  When calling your representative, do not use the words “Cap & Trade.” You need to use “HR 2454 ACES ACT” when speaking with their offices.

9 I like the report @ Poor & Stupid:

Here, this morning’s buzz: Pelosi is still short of the votes on BTU Tax Deux, er, Waxman-Markey.

If they don’t have the votes by 2 pm, the buzz will shift to “will they pull the bill”?

Guesses about how far short have no credibility. Having done vote counting for 31 years, those who know the hard counts, don’t leak.

Three outcomes:

If it passes, a pollster I trust say it could swing 10-12 seats in 2010.

If it gets pulled, it creates havoc on the left. What can they bring back?

If it fails, it’s both a loser for the Dems, now & in 2010.

10 But what does this have to do with Michael Jackson?

11 @SupLdrKhameni Jacko died & they R distracted-letz giv them atomic wedgie lolz #AxisofEvil

Less than 1 minute ago from web

12

It has nothing to do with climate change in the end.  The climate change argument, like the "fairness" of socialist health care, or "the wealthiest 2% should pay" are just tools for ideologues to use to have this country pay penance for all of the turmoil, poverty, hunger, conflict, greed, etc. etc. that exists in the world that can be, in their mind, linked directly back to capitalism. 

What was it the Romulan villian in the new Star Trek movie said? "The wait is over!"

13 So Fox news goes from MJ still dead to mark sanford 's woman - Is shep or geraldo holding the network hostage ?

14 "It has nothing to do with climate change in the end."

Well, no shit.  The actual bill, as far as anyone can tell, can hardly even pretend to be anything else than a gigantic series of taxes and targeted payoffs.

15 Nice to see "conservatives" embracing science for a change, even if it's the wrong science.

Posted by: poon at June 26, 2009 10:14 AM (i31Zq)

 

Nice to see your head is still up your ass.

16 China and India will feast on our corpse.

17 Glad to see that my douchebag D congressman is a solid NO on this one. He voted for the Spendulus, and I ripped his ass for it. We're an actually moderate district -- a long history of D involvement around here, but it's the conservative kind. Even the D's around here likes their gunsesses and likes to be left alone. He's probably sniffing the wind and doesn't like what it smells like in 2010 for D's who toe Nancy's line any more.

18 My congresscritter is against it. He's a conservative Republican. I just hope he isn't in Argentina right now. Or worse even, Brazil.

19

Watch this vid. It gets good around the 3.50 min. mark.

Then call your CongressF*cks.

http://tinyurl.com/dcwt5w

 

20 #14 Right on.  It's a spigot to pay for more government programs.

21 poon brings the thug point of view.

22

Point out that voting for a 300-page economy-killing bill nobody's had time to read is something that will come back to haunt them. 

Actually, the bill is over 1300 pages long; 1000 in the original + the 300 addition.  I'd bet 500 GE carbon credits that the bill contains a lot of crap that liberals don't want the American public to see until it's too late.

23
I believe the 300p were added to the 1700p bill overnight.

If one Republican votes for this, they need to be ejected from the caucus.

24 #6 -  Count me in as one of the scientists with a Ph.D. in atmospheric physics, have worked with Dr. Hansen and believes the science of climate change is far from settled. I sincerely doubt you have the qualifications or knowledge to have any sort of vigorous debate on the matter.

25 My dem congress critter is a committed "no" vote. I tried calling his office to thank him for the "no" vote but my call won't go through. I can only surmise that the switchboards are smoking. If your representative is a committed "no", do call or e-mail them your appreciation.

26 What the hell is "Cap & Tax"? We're still waiting for reports from Iran on how Michael Jackson's death is affecting them over there.

27 Well this knocked down carbon emissions for a minute

The House of Reps held a moment of silence in honor of Michael Jackson.

Are you sh&t!n me?

28 Yes, eman,

Let's let Germany make billions each year exporting renewable energy technology to us.

America's dinosaur energy technology should be enough for us.

We shouldn't get greedy.

29 Red State has Repub Tim Johnson as undecided.  Just spoke to his office and was told that he intends to vote NO.  One more for the Good Guys!

30 Call their local offices. 

31 Yes climate change is made up but how else are we going to limit people's consumption?

32 Vote count update from Redstate.  Somebody please frontpage this.

By the way, EVEN GREENPEACE OPPOSES THIS SHIT SANDWICH (via same link)!  Tell your lefty Congressman this.

33

How can it be "the wrong science," doofus?  Either it's science or it's not.  This is what some of you nitwits don't seem to understand, you can't cram this stuff down our throats, and call it "settled."  If you believe it's settled without the backing of real science, that's faith.  Good or bad, faith is religion, not science.

 

34 I called Rodney Frelinghuysen, NJ at his local office. Got through and registered my opposition. (973) 984-0711

35 crap, fixed Greenpeace link

36

If only we humans would stop changing the temperature of Earth.  I'm sure Spain and us going green will be enough to dial back the thermostat.  That's not arrogant, naive, or retarded at all.

Science clearly is settled.

37

Ohioans

Most oy our f*ckers are undecided.  Please call them.  They know they are already facing huge hate from Ohioans, they just need a little push to vote 'no'.

38 I thought Barry getting elected president was going to "heal the earth"? How's that going so far?

39

Let's let Germany make billions each year exporting renewable energy technology to us

Hysterical.

You are so ignorant it is actually pathetic. Yet you're commenting, why?

America's dinosaur energy technology should be enough for us.

Um, really?

Even with the federal subsidies, says O'Neill, the solar plant won't offer the double-digit returns usually required by investors in large energy projects. It would cost $6 a watt to build, whereas wind and natural-gas plants cost roughly $2 a watt and $1 a watt, respectively. And its 10 megawatts will contribute an insignificant amount of electricity to Exelon's vast generation capacity of 36,000 megawatts

On the bright side, you're so dumb you don't even understand what that means.

40 Nice to see your head is still up your ass.

It'd be even nicer to see you guys stop dipping your fingers in troll shit.  Stop encouraging them already.

41 Limiting consumption is stupid. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. We are not running out of hydrocarbon resources.

There is no need to do anything except unchain the free market.

Hydrocarbons are terrific energy sources. Compact, safe, easily transported, stored, and used. They are stuffed with chemical potential energy. The by-products of using them, carbon dioxide and water, are both vital components of our ecosystem, and both have been recycled for billions of years.

AGW is a lie. It is also a test. Did you fall for the lie?

42

If one Republican votes for this, they need to be ejected from the caucus.

Malkin says that Mary Bono is voting yes. Somewhere in the afterlife, Sonny is pissed....having the wacked "daughter" didn't help either.

43 At least my congressman Larry Kissell from NC, a democrat, is on the solid NO list.

44 Mine is Anna Eshoo?! See you in the re-education camps...

45 I am a lifelong Conservative Christian with a PhD in meteorology I am apalled by the flagrant contempt for science shown by posters here. Why, even Daily Kos is more rational. Your contempt for science has made me, for the first time in my life, cut my own throat and die poor in the gutter for the sake of India's and China's economy.

46

37

Ohioans

Most oy our f*ckers are undecided.  Please call them.  They know they are already facing huge hate from Ohioans, they just need a little push to vote 'no'.

I called Charlie Wilson's office (D-OH-6) yesterday and was told he's a NO vote. Good to see him aligning with his constituents (half of Ohio's coal-based power plants are in his district) rather than Queen Nan.

47 OK, I called my representative. Shit lot of good it will do.

48 Buy Cap'n Trade, the cereal that will eat your breakfast for you!

49 I spent $10,000 upgrading my prius. Now it gets 100mpg around town instead of 50. It saves me about $300 per year. Now that is science!

50

I can't believe our politicians are this corrupt, and I can't believe our electorate is this retarded.

51 IC @#24:

Here's a question for you...Assuming the planet IS warming, how is that necessarily a bad thing? I would imagine that the melting Polar Ice Caps would cause our atmosphere to become wetter and rainfall would increase in areas that currently are drought prone. Also, doesn't the assumption that sea levels will rise catastrophically not take into account the amount of additional rainfall that would fill aquifers, etc.? I live in Texas. The Edwards Aquifer near San Antonio would most certainly benefit  from greater rainfall. I am just a layman but it is hard for me to see a downside to global warming, man made or otherwise.

52 I already wrote emails and called my creeps from OH. Tiberi = solid NO. Voinovich = solid on fence. Brown = I got the usual "f*ck off rube" dem talking points form letter reply I always get.

53 "poon" should be investigated by the ICC, for trying to corner the market on stoopid.

54 42

>>>>>If one Republican votes for this, they need to be ejected from the caucus.

Malkin says that Mary Bono is voting yes. Somewhere in the afterlife, Sonny is pissed....having the wacked "daughter" didn't help either.

 . . . . . . . . . . .

The Republicans will never betray me again.  I went down yesterday and switch my party affiliation to "unaffiliated."

55 Poon, what did you do,put pedals on it?

56 On the bright side, you're so dumb you don't even understand what that means.

Nice to see the views of Exxon and Chevron finally getting heard.  Poor souls are usually drowned out by shills bought and paid for by the deep pockets of Greenpeace, the Sierra Club and the billionaires of Bangladesh and other countries barely above sea level.

57

Let's let Germany make billions each year exporting renewable energy technology to us.

America's dinosaur energy technology should be enough for us.

I'm sorry--you seem to have this "bill" confused with a market question.  Which is pretty standard fare for lefties.

58 @walrusrex

Send in 10 box tops for 1 carbon credit decoder ring

59

The Republicans will never betray me again.  I went down yesterday and switch my party affiliation to "unaffiliated."

WRONG. Epic FAIL. We need your primary vote.

I even know very conservative and patriotic people who register as Democrats in order to try to make that party less Commiecrat in the primaries.

(standard disclaimer about how your state election laws may vary)

60 This is a massive tax. Worse than that, it's an economy killing massive tax. The US needs real sources of energy, as does the rest of the world. Alternative energy systems are only profitable to the extent they are subsidized.

http://tinyurl.com/5qd2l5

Once the gravy train runs out, solar and wind are toast. And this economy killing tax will destroy the alt-energy racket as it destroys the legitimate economy. Alternative energy, other than hydro and nuke, will not be cost competitive for many decades, at the earliest. That's just how it is, and anyone who wants to argue otherwise is not worth arguing with.

61

You all will feel really stupid once you realize you're heading toward another ice age, thanks to me...mwa ha ha

 

Love,

the Sun

62   I really wish you guys would post that video that's over at Red State, where Obama says "This will make electricity rates skyrocket"

63 The question is: How many of the dipshits in congress have money invested in green schemes? Al Gore is going to be a rich man.

64

I'm sorry--you seem to have this "bill" confused with a market question.  Which is pretty standard fare for lefties.

It is revealing about Commiecrats--nothing, no innovation whatsoever, happens unless the nanny state makes it so. This flies in the face of all reality (even defense and space program inventions were private sector!), but hey, it's poon.

65 This tax is just the thing to turn a recession into a depression. Leftys are immune to learning from their mistakes. They just learn to rationalize better.

66

Nuke-u-ler....it's pronounced nuke-u-ler.  And oil.  Drill it, drill it good.

67 Ashoo me too.

Yeesh.

68

This needs to be said. There is a psychological component to this that never gets mentioned.

I use this as an intellectual yardstick for politicians: if they utter the words "global warming" or "climate change" or any other term that implies a man-caused role in the earth's weather, they are extremely succeptible to suggestion, and therefore do not have the capacity for rational thought that is absolutely essential for public office.

Funny, that includes damn near everybody in Washington.

If you wonder how an idea as preposterous as man-caused climate change became so pervasive, understand that what you're seeing is brainwashing, pure and simple. It's not necessary to reduce anyone to a drooling idiot for it to take hold. As long as the message is consistent and relentless, those who unable to think for themselves will follow right along and begin to sing the tune, as it were.

Our elected officials should have enough smarts to doubt something as blatant as the hoax of "climate change". If they don't, then they shouldn't hold any office.

69 Steve Austria-6th District OH: Webpage is down. His (my) district is the reddest in the state of Ohio though, so if I can't get in touch hopefully he votes the way he should.

70 Jim Gerlach (PA --6th) is my rep. I just called him and asked him to vote "NO!"

The droid that answered the phone indicated that he's probably going to give it the thumbs-down, and that the calls have been overwhelming.

71 Sadly, I thought I liked poon until today.

72

"shills bought and paid for by the deep pockets of Greenpeace, the Sierra Club and the billionaires of Bangladesh"

George Soros is from Bangladesh? I did not know that.

Eeeew, smell my finger.

73 Just spoke w/ my rep McMorris Rodgers local office (she is solid NO) and he said he thinks they have the votes to pass it.  Who knows.. Congress switchboard busy..busy...busy

He said this whole Washington situation is just "ugly".

74 The science is clear: global warming on Mercury, Venus, and Mars is man-made and can only be solved by the adoption of a liberal agenda on those planets.

75

As for Bangladesh--someone has to be responsible for them picking a mud flat as their home.  And last time I checked, it was not the American taxpayer or business owner.

76

How in the hell would cap and trade stop the electromagnetic hole over the South Atlantic from expanding, or even reversing?  I really hate political putzes using junk science to pass some 'save humanity' crappy laws.

Between the reduction in solar flare activity (which could lead to global cooling, and a possible small or large Ice Age, depending upon the length of the solar activity drought) and the possible beginnings of a magentic poles reversal (leading to widespread death by radiation), we're doomed anyway.  If not in the next couple of hundred years then in the next 25 milion, surely.  Unless we're too stupid, even then, (read:  overrun with politicians and their flunkies) to know the basic sciences necessary to get off this planet.  Obamabots give me pause to worry about the survival of our species.

77 I spent a bit of time reading the Cap and Trade Bill,  before the 300 page addition.

They specify the acceptable wattage for everything from candelabras to work lamps.  If you need brighter wattage, like for medical purposes(surgery for example) you have to petition the Secretary of Energy for an exemption.

They are going to set up 10 regional Centers for Environment and Energy at 10 universities distributed around the country, at a cost of  $50, 000,000.

There will be inspectors to rate buildings on energy efficiency.  This isn't just for new homes, but for existing ones.  Each building will get a sticker/certificate. (A job made for ACORN, I am sure.)

There is also a provision to encourage a decrease in water consumption.

There is something called the "Best in Class Appliance Protocol" in which retailers will be given bonuses to sell appliances which are rated at the top in energy savings.  Consumers will be given stipends to trade in their old appliances and buy new ones (Cash for Clunkers for refrigerators).

There will be a Director Of High Performance Green Buildings.

Old appliances will no longer be able to be repaired, you will have to buy a new one.

This is only the stuff I learned reading the first 500 pages.

78 This is a massive tax.

It will cost every American about $40 a year.

How big is your tax bill now, bunny?

79 Let's let Germany make billions each year exporting renewable energy technology to us.

Posted by: poon at June 26, 2009 10:24 AM (i31Zq)

LOL! Yes... yes I would very much like to see Germany make "billions" exporting Unicorn Piss... err, I mean Renewable Energy!

80 as predicted - monica takes the plea. will this get any press? which is more important? bribed public officials which are the wife of one of teh most powerful Dems in America - or a GOP cheating on his wife?

i wonder how many Dems will be paid off via cap and trade.....

she admits she was bribed. from her plea agreement:

Two examples from the agreement:

• On Nov. 20, 2007, at 3:15 p.m., Conyers met with "an individual sent by (Detroit businessman) Rayford W. Jackson" in the Butzel Family Center parking lot and received "an envelope containing cash."

• On Dec. 4, 2007, at 2:30 p.m., "an individual sent by Rayford Jackson" met Conyers and her aide in a McDonald's parking lot in Detroit at which time she received "an envelope containing cash."

see below re her quotes on when questioned about taking a plea last week, and compare that to today's reality.

her quotes last week:

Conyers mostly ignored reporters when she left City Hall in an unmarked car after 3 p.m. en route to her weekly television show "Ask the Councilwoman With Monica Conyers." But when asked if she would accept a plea, she murmured that The Detroit News was "full of (it)."

Conyers seemed to briefly allude to the allegations during a live broadcast of her show on WHPR-TV (Channel 33). She acknowledged that she's been in the news but challenged detractors, saying, "If you aren't praying for me, then you are just adding to the problem."

"First and foremost, I am a child of God," Conyers said. "All these things going on right now, I believe in my heart, God will deliver me from."

Later in the show, Conyers brushed off a caller who asked directly what she thought about the "latest scandal" involving Synagro. "I don't have a thought," she said.

now today:

Monica Conyers guilty in Synagro bribery scandal Paul Egan / The Detroit News

Detroit -- Detroit City Council Pro Tem Monica Conyers pleaded guilty to a felony today in connection with the city sludge contract hauling scandal. Detroit's top federal prosecutor said no other City Council members would be charged in connection with the contract.

Conyers, 44, spoke softly in federal court as she admitted taking bribes in connection with $1.2 billion Synagro Technologies Inc. contract the Detroit City Council awarded in 2007.

Conyers changed her position from opposing to supporting the deal to cast the deciding vote.

Conyers could be facing about three years in prison under her plea agreement. Her attorney, Steve Fishman, believes federal sentencing guidelines of 30-37 months apply.

81

It will cost every American about $40 a year.

How big is your tax bill now, bunny?

You really believe this? Ha. It will cost every American $40 per fillup.

82

It will cost every American about $40 a year.

That is a lie.

Try again.

83 I took a slightly different tack when contacting my representative.
My representative is listed as Bobby Scott, D-VA.
I did get through to one of his staff and explained the following:
My message is for representative Scott and for you and any other of his staff members.
If representative Scott votes for the Cap and Trade bill I will work to vote him out of office but will not stop there.  I will also work to remove any staff that supported him in his vote.  This bill has not even been fully read out and discussed.
I'm disgusted.  If this bill can be delayed and fully read out with sufficient time to review it and it passes I will not be happy but that's the way the system works.
However, voting for and passing this bill today will be incredibly irresponsible and I won't want to see the congressman or any of his staff in any future position of authority anywhere anytime.
Please pass that message along to the representative and any fellow staff members in your office as well as others.

The reply was "Thank you for contacting representative Scott's office Mr. Morgan.

I not only want the members of congress, the administration and judiciary replaced, I want the supporting bureaucracy completely scrubbed down and the ground sanitized before we restart the republic in a way that our representatives and their staff live by the laws they pass before anyone else is subjected to them.

84 The science really IS settled.

There is no AGW.

We're cooler now than 10 years ago, and the science didn't see that coming.

Therefore, the forecasts of disaster were wrong.

Settled.

This is just another Democrat power and money grab, and there are undoubtedly well-connected Democrats (Nancy) who are first in line at the teat.

85 I'll be in the garage later, sharpening the pitchforks.

86 Don't knock unicorn piss till you've tried it.  It tastes like God-made-flesh Obama's ass.  I loooooooooooove it!

87 14 "It has nothing to do with climate change in the end."

Well, it has as much to do with the climate, as the 'Stimulus' bill had to do with the economy.

88 I've been calling the switchboard all morning. Can't get through. I hope that's a good sign, but for all we know, Pelosi had the switchboard turned off.

These fuckers still haven't and won't read the bills the institutionalized special interest groups write for them.

Forget even the content of the bills however fraudulent. Their dereliction to duty would be a terminating offense anywhere in the real world.

Blood shooting out of the eyes here. Does Obamacare cover that?

89 Toyota is offering an optional solar roof package that increases the cost of the car by $3600. What do you get for that money? A system that will run a ventilation fan... when the sun is shining. That's it. It doesn't help charge your battery or do anything else that helps you get from point A to point B. But that won't stop the d-bags out there from buying it to improve their green cred.

If we, as a nation, are going to go down this path as a means to generating a significant portion of our electricity, then we deserve to starve in the dark.

90 I live in flake-o Vern Ehlers' district in Michigan.  Ostensibly an R, he's considering "yes" on this?  He's been unreliable before, too.  He needs to go.

91 That is a lie.

It's true, just look at the map Gabriel provided the other day.  The total cost of this bill comes to around  $12 billion a year.

Divide $12 billion a year by 300,000,000 Americans and you get $40  a year.

92 Also, where does the $40/year come from?  Last I heard, the CBO was estimating $175 (an equally bogus number, to be sure—it'll be in the $6,800 range by 2035).  The cost seems to keep shrinking miraculously.  By the time it gets to the Senate, this bill will be somehow giving every taxpayer an extra $5000 every year.

Such is the power of the Lightworker and his Democratic Disciples. 

93
78:

LOLz at those who buy into Obama funny math. That $40 certainly doesn't cover the reduced economic output that will occur.

94 Update: Austria is a pretty solid no and the staffer who took my call said that he was getting lots of opposition to it. One more for the good guys!

95 49 I spent $10,000 upgrading my prius. Now it gets 100mpg around town instead of 50. It saves me about $300 per year. Now that is science!

Yeah, but can it pull a 6000 pound 25' boat? Can it carry two dogs, three kids and groceries for the week?  How bout the dump? You just shove the shit inside and hope for the best?  How about a load of lumber for the new deck? Just put it on the roof rack? How about that backcountry experience? Just scoots right up that snow covered rural road? No high centering I'll betcha.

Get back in your co-op and take the damned subway.  You shouldn't even be allowed a car.  Such things are for the elite,  and you ain't one of 'em.

And your financial skills, dude.  What's your return on investment, eh? Hope the little shitter runs for the next 33 years.

96 Divide $12 billion a year by 300,000,000 Americans and you get $40  a year.

Posted by: poon at June 26, 2009 10:56 AM (i31Zq)

So what you're saying is that this tax disproportionately affects the poor and unemployed? Good to know.

It's also interesting to note that every person from 1 year old to 100 pays taxes.

97

Toyota is offering an optional solar roof package that increases the cost of the car by $3600. What do you get for that money? A system that will run a ventilation fan... when the sun is shining. That's it. It doesn't help charge your battery or do anything else that helps you get from point A to point B. But that won't stop the d-bags out there from buying it to improve their green cred.

It really is the 21st century version of buying indulgences. We need another Martin Luther of climate research and 95 Theses debunking eco-fiend nonsense.

98

The Congressional Budget Office -- Mr. Orszag's former roost -- estimates that the price hikes from a 15% cut in emissions would cost the average household in the bottom-income quintile about 3.3% of its after-tax income every year. That's about $680, not including the costs of reduced employment and output. The three middle quintiles would see their paychecks cut between $880 and $1,500, or 2.9% to 2.7% of income. The rich would pay 1.7%. Cap and trade is the ideal policy for every Beltway analyst who thinks the tax code is too progressive (all five of them).

Hey, poon--you intellectually dishonest mental midget--that passage is from the WSJ quoting the CBO.  NOTE THE PART IN BOLD.  With unemployment at 9.4% and headed ever northward, this is exactly the wrong policy instrument at precisely the wrong time.  Perfect storm.  And it hurts the poorest the most.  So much for that Exxon conspiracy theory. 

99 Poon read this and you will notice that it is a lot more than 40 dollars a year...(I write this knowing Poon will not read this)

"An analysis of the Waxman-Markey bill (as reported out of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce) by The Heritage Foundation found that unemployment will increase by nearly 2 million in 2012, the first year of the program, and reach nearly 2.5 million in 2035, the last year of the analysis. Total GDP loss by 2035 would be $9.4 trillion. The national debt would balloon as the economy slowed, saddling a family of four with $114,915 of additional national debt. Families would also suffer, as the bill would slap the equivalent of a $4,609 tax on a family of four by 2035."

Facts don't matter to robots.....

100

This is a perfect example of politicians creating problems instead of solving them.

Each and every congresscriiter that votes in favor of this POS bill needs to be removed from office as soon as possible.

Why vote for somebody who supports the destruction of their own country?

101

It will cost every American about $40 a year

Every American? so about $12 billion a year? Even with your made up figure that's no pocket change. 

102 Hey poon, my kids don't pay taxes. You can't divide cost by population.

103

Cap and Trade?

we are talking about healthcare today, it's in all the papers.

and did you hear a pedophile died yesterday, let's all talk about him

104

It's also interesting to note that every person from 1 year old to 100 pays taxes.

Bingo! And this fool believes that corporations actually pay taxes, rather than pass them on to the people.

Mark my words: as high as $40.00 per tank of gas increase. Only $20.00 per tank if we are lucky.

105 Silly Derak, none of those things are good for the earth!

A boat?  Better be talking about a sailboat!  Two dogs and three kids?  Think about the carbon footprint!  Those are five excess lifeforms that exhale deadly CO2!  And how are you going to attach a new deck to your government-issued, sustainable (read: no electricity) apartment unit?

106

#83

Did the person "chuckle"  condescendingly before he or she said "Thank you for calling Rep.etc.?"  I felt very angry.  I guess I am on some kind of watch list now.

107 49 I spent $10,000 upgrading my prius. Now it gets 100mpg around town instead of 50. It saves me about $300 per year. Now that is science!

Posted by: poon at June 26, 2009 10:36 AM (gue+Q)

That's great!  For you.  Others might want to spend some extra money on fuel so they can tool around in a fancy sports car.  Still others might want to tool around on a bicycle and use no fuel.  Still others like to haul stuff around and use even more fuel for that.  And that is what is great about living here - we can all choose.  If we artificially jack up the price, then the choice is no longer ours.  They are gaming the system.  That is the point of this exercise.

108 I know what will get theth guyth. 

I'll call them a racith next.  That alwayth workth on theth wingerth.

I didn't much thyrup on my pancaketh.

109

It will cost every American about $40 a year

Actually no, the bill will cost the average family $1,241 a year.

 

Nice to see the views of Exxon and Chevron finally getting heard

Those were not "views" they were actual facts.

The fact you can't recognize this speaks volumes.

110

my kids don't pay taxes

Shit, almost 50% of adults pay no federal taxes.

111 That's great!  For you.

That was a sock puppet, not me, Incali...note the i.d. number.

Sounds like a great upgrade, though.

112 Big Daddy @#51 - The basic assumption in climate change science is that human activities have and are resulting in large perturbations to our earth's temperatures and this in turn would result in dramatic weather changes in various parts of the world (e.g. droughts, stronger hurricanes, etc). If this is true, these weather changes would be beneficial in some places of the world (e.g. more rainfall in Texas, Calgary won't be frozen 9 months a year) but catastrophic in other parts of the world. Most skeptics (myself included) question the basic premise of this argument, there has been no evidence, either through ice core drilling or modeling, that conclusively states this is true. In fact, evidence seems to point to the fact that perturbations from our activity are well within the 'background noise' of temperature variations that tend to happen over geologic time scales.

113 $40 is nothing!  I make more than that panhandling in front of the public library between posts here.

114 Actually no, the bill will cost the average family $1,241 a year.

I'm sure you'll provide us with a link to the unbiased source you got that figure from, Jay.

115 Bangladesh? Every time, with this stupid argument. No one is going to die because sea levels rise a few tenths of a millimeter per year.

116

Here's another thought. Why vote for a politician who actively promotes a lower standard of living for his/her constituents? Any time energy prices go up, everybody receives a direct cut in pay. Hell, any time any price goes up, you get a pay cut.

117 ...and doesn't like what it smells like in 2010 for D's who toe Nancy's line any more.

Thank You Mr. Frakypants!

Sorry, OT but the whole tow/toe the line confusion on the interwebz is just one of those things that never fails to bug me.

Besides, who isn't looking for a reason to type "Thank You Mr. Frakypants!"?

118 The crucial underpinning of the "causality" argument is Mann's 1998 "hockeystick" temperature reconstruction.

He's finally (02-2009) released enough code for his algorithm to be used outside of his work group. And it generates a hockeystick even if you put the input temperature proxies through upside-down and backwards. It is a -very- strong pattern seeking algorithm.

119

@106

Did the person "chuckle"  condescendingly before he or she said "Thank you for calling Rep.etc.?"  I felt very angry.  I guess I am on some kind of watch list now.

Join the club. I'm sure I'm on a list since that that angry 3 paragraph letter I sent my Reps. for supporting the spendulous. Everything I said would happen has happened, though.

120

Poon must subscriber to Washington Monthly AND Mother Jones.  That's the only way to explain his idiocy.  He has drowned any logic and intelligence in his feeble brain with useless liberal drivel.

Go back to your trendy coffee shop and fuck yourself.

121 I wonder what'th in the boxth luncth that Axthelrod is providing today?

I like thalami mythelf..

122 It will cost every American about $4000 a year.

How big is your tax bill now, bunny?

Posted by: poon at June 26, 2009 10:50 AM (i31Zq)

 

You missed a few 00s but I fixed it for you, Einstein.

123 105- Yep.  My entire lifestyle is an assault on mother Gaia.
 I even burn wood for heat.   Something everyone will revert to after this boondoogle passes.  Oh, maybe the 300 page amendment is to outlaw wood burning because of the resultant co2 emmissions. D'oh! Oversight! No wood for you!

124 I mith MJ.


I remember vithiting him ath a little boy at hith houthe.

good timeth.

125 111 That's great!  For you.

That was a sock puppet, not me, Incali...note the i.d. number.

Sounds like a great upgrade, though.

Posted by: poon at June 26, 2009 11:04 AM (i31Zq)

Ok.  But my point still stands.

126 >>>> 49 I spent $10,000 upgrading my prius. Now it gets 100mpg around town instead of 50. It saves me about $300 per year. Now that is science!

This is mathematics:  $10,000 / $300 = break even for the upgrade in 33 1/3 years. 

127

Bangladesh? Every time, with this stupid argument. No one is going to die because sea levels rise a few tenths of a millimeter per year.

And if it does, we can always flood useless and desolate desert depressions (Quattara, Danakil, Dead Sea), or divert rivers into them. A few millimeters up? There's a few millimeters down. If the Russkies are talking up replenishing the dried up Aral Sea, more power to them. Better they do that then rebuild their war machine.

128 This is how great ideas die: for the 30 pieces of silver in each amendment accepted by supposed fiscal conservatives.

129

can someone turn on the light? I can't see anything.

Nice echo in here though.

Hellooooooo!!!

Hellooooooo!!

_Hellooooo!

130 97

Toyota is offering an optional solar roof package that increases the cost of the car by $3600. What do you get for that money? A system that will run a ventilation fan... when the sun is shining. That's it. It doesn't help charge your battery or do anything else that helps you get from point A to point B. But that won't stop the d-bags. out there from buying it to improve their green cred.

It really is the 21st century version of buying indulgences. We need another Martin Luther of climate research and 95 Theses debunking eco-fiend nonsense.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at June 26, 2009 11:00 AM (ujg0T)

If only, fellow moron - sadly, there is no Martin Luther coming anytime soon.  First America will undergo a Spanish Inquisition with the target being energy use of any kind and energy production of any kind besides the government approved list. 

The religion of AGW is now only hours away from taking the first giant step towards adoption as official government policy, enforced by command and control EPA regs AND cap n trade.  BOTH.  SIMEOUTANEOUSLY.

For the first time in American history, we are altering their own natural economic development in a substantial way for a rationale based on a pure myth. 

this is the province of days gone by and non-rational regimes - not the United States of America.

The shame of it all is that the President himself stated electricity will "skyrocket" and the coal industry will die - yet the CBO has not released an estimate of the impact on jobs and GDP.

Unreal.

131

Poon must subscriber to Washington Monthly The Nation AND Mother Jones.

WM is actually reasonable compared to The unrepentant communist fever swamps of MJ, or Katrina Van Den Heuvel's drivel.

132

OMG! I just realized breathing is emitting deadly CO2!

 

(holds breath)

 

*THUD*

 

Uhhhhhhhh......why do me keep getting more dumber?

133

Since we're just making up the science at this point:

I  fear the polar bears if global warming doesn't happen.  There will fucking penguins everywhere. 

Do you want that???

134

I'm sure you'll provide us with a link to the unbiased source you got that figure from, Jay.

Hey, jackass, I gave you figures above from the Congressional Effing Budget Office.  NONPARTISAN.

Care to address those?

135 112

In fact, evidence seems to point to the fact that perturbations from our activity are well within the 'background noise' of temperature variations that tend to happen over geologic time scales.

Did I read that right?  that you think Man isn't contributing to Global Warming?

136

#119

Last time I sent an email - I received a free kool-aid badge asking for a donation.

137 Off sock puppet.

138 China and India will feast on our corpse.

Posted by: eman at June 26, 2009 10:19 AM (fpywm)

 

Good thing I like Kung Pow Chicken and spicy Curry.

139 anyone near a tv go watch obama on iran and the "you are bush" comment.

after decrying iranian "violence" this is the best he can do as a conclusion:

"thats where mahmoud and others need to answer their questions"

wow----tough guy.

140 Imagine for a second that we are all feeble retards who actually believe that this piece of shit will really only impact the economy to the tune of 12 billion per year. Okay, now that that's out of the way, why would we want to spend even a "measly" 12 billion on a bill whose supporters admit will not have a meaningful impact on anything?

Pretty sad when shitty legislation is justified not by an explanation of the benefits, but rather through a dishonest attempt to convince us that it really doesn't cost that much, so we really shouldn't care. What a low bunch of elected officials we have in DC.

141

I loooooove penguins!  Not in that way, though.

 

They're waaaaay too big for my nano-phallus..

142 Sadly, I thought I liked poon until today.

Posted by: mr.frakypants at June 26, 2009 10:46 AM (PonvG)

 

I like his sistier TANG better.

143 It's going to be a close vote but the general consensus is the Cap and Trade bill will pass? Depressing. What is CA going to do, I wonder, we already have our very own Greenhouse gas bill with cap and trade policies. If he Federal bill is going to preempt CA's bill, what a bloody waste of money that would be (for CA). Another nail in the coffin for this state.

144 Toyota is offering an optional solar roof package that increases the cost of the car by $3600. What do you get for that money?

A reach around.

145 Welcome to Amerizuela everybody.  The fact that this will destroy  the economy is besides the point.  The point is CONTROL of the economy.  Actually, the destruction of the economy isn't besides the point, it's a bonus.  The worse the situation is for the private sector, the more control the government will gain over the people who become dependent on the government.  Maybe something like, sign up too volunteer for Americorps and get your unemployment benefits extended for a year. 

146

Divide $12 billion a year by 300,000,000 Americans and you get $40  a year.

Posted by: poon at June 26, 2009 10:56 AM (i31Zq)

So they will tax every American equally one this? Infants, children, people without jobs, people on welfare, nitwits like you living in mommy's basement.

147

There will fucking penguins everywhere.

That might be OK.

How do they taste?

148

We can all hope the Senate still has some common sense.

...

...

...

Anyone else want to move to Triton or Io or Calisto?

I'll be in the back tying BIG bundles of bottle rockets together.

149 #118
That alone should have put the stake in this farcical pseudo-science vampire. It just gets so absurd you want to give up. You can read volumes of stuff on the dubious, unfalsifiable nature of all this AGW garbage. I've saved dozens and dozens of stories myself. I still recall one that blew my mind. Some "scientists" set up a model and proposed testing it by looking at C02 levels in certain Antarctic ice cores. So they went down and drilled some. If their model that predicted global warming was "correct," there should have been a certain amount of C02 in these cores. The amount detected showed that their model did not predict global warming... so what did they do? They rewrote the model to account for the actual C02 detected and predict future global warming. Makes you wonder why they bothered to go the the South Pole anyway. They weren't looking for evidence to support their theory, they wanted a theory that could disregard evidence.

150

Nice to see all of poon's Suck Poppets are getting the shit beat out them.

 

Anyone know where this thing stands once it gets to the Senate?  Is a forgone conclusion their?

151

There will fucking penguins everywhere.

They won the Stanley Cup, give 'em a break.

152 Deety -- I write books. I ought to know what I'm doing. Glad you noticed.

The mistake that poon made (besides thinking of the flavor of cock as "delectable") was to simply pull the figures from the powerline map posted the other day, add them up, then divide by the total pop of the U.S. In fact, that map only represented a single-year value for consumer cost of electricity generation. Note that the map simply used figures that calced raw values for the amount of $ paid (or received) for carbon credits to offest overages. It does not take into account any kind of secondary economic activity. Note also that the year in question (2012) is during the honeymoon period of the bill, when the cap values are relatively high to keep coal-burning D states mostly happy. Later, the caps crank down severely, sending even this raw indicator through the roof.

Of course, poon shouldn't let those bits of information color his implied claim that each person will really only feel $40 of pain per year for this. That's ludicrous both on it's face and under a more careful examination.

153 I'm writing a fax to my Congress critters. There are so many things wrong with this bill that it's almost impossible to pick a talking point. Here are two I'm using.

• "Using mainstream models and assumptions, Mr. Knappenberger finds that in the year 2050 with a 83% emissions reduction (the aspirational goal of Waxman-Markey, the beginning steps of which are under vigorous debate), the temperature reduction is nine hundredths of one degree Fahrenheit,"

• "As the European trading system demonstrates, this policy creates a legal gray area, equipping future Enrons and Bernie Madoffs with a license to cheat and steal. [...] The draft Waxman-Markey bill touted on Capitol Hill includes a provision that allows covered companies to buy emissions offsets or emissions allowances rather than reduce their actual emissions."

If your Congressional rep's are Lefties, here is a set of talking points created by a enviro-nut jobs. Time to use their own stupid against them.

The case against carbon trading
Social justice, corporations will use it to steal, carbon trading can't work, blah, blah, blah.

154 IC @ #112

Thanks for the response. So what you are saying is that AGW proponents are like my 9 yr old son worrying today about the sun blowing up into a red giant in another 5 billion years?

155 I'm gonna enjoy turning Zero voters begging for food away from my farm. I'll tell 'em to eat carbon credits.

156 We can all hope the Senate still has some common sense.

Yes, We Can. Hope. Common sense from the august body that gave us Obama, Biden, Clinton, McCain, Reid...

157

So what you are saying is that AGW proponents are like my 9 yr old son worrying today about the sun blowing up into a red giant in another 5 billion years?

Now you've done it. 

Up next:  The Solar Equity and Reconfiguration Act of 2009.

158

The sun's going to blow up into a red giant?!?!?!?! 

WE MUST ACT NOW!!!!!!!!

159 You missed a few 00s but I fixed it for you, Einstein.

The quietman claims $12 billion a year divided by 300,000,000 Americans = $4000 a year per American, not $40 a year per American as I stated.

Here we have an objective, verifiable test between oil company math and reality-based math.

Break out your calculators to see who is correct.

160

Payback's a Michelle, cracker ass crackers!

Get out yo' wallet, and while you are in yo' pants, just go ahead and pull 'em down to yo' ankles.

161 ALL IN CONGRESS WHO VOTE FOR THIS BILL MUST GO!!!!

This administration and Dem-led Congress are reckless and careless in driving legislation that WILL have negative impact on America for generations to come.  At fault are Obama AND all those who voted for him!  They owe apologies to our children, and their children's children.

GLOD (Give Liberty Or Death, join today)

162 And break out your thinking cap to see what the map was actually talking about. I prefer not to take my statistical analysis from diagrams that were simplifications of only one small part of a problem.

163

Lets see, do I take the word of The Quiet Man, or a drooling idiot?

Choices.

164 I still don't understand how they can drop 300 pages in the morning and vote on it in the afternoon.  I mean, shouldn't that be illegal?  I have a real problem with that no matter who drops the extra pages.

165 If they vote it down today, they'll just bring it back. That's what happens when we have an enemy of the country in charge of it.

166

Here we have an objective, verifiable test between oil company math and reality-based math.

The Congressional Budget Office just called to say your reality-based math is the crack whore of the math world.

167 Big Daddy @ #154 - Heh! Sounds about right..another pet theory of mine is that someone is trying to get very rich from all this..Al Gore comes to mind.

168 My sister just had a baby.  Good luck getting $40 from that little bastard.  He has ZERO job skills, and, much worse, shits his pants.

169 I just heard on Boortz that the dems may be 12 votes short. It almost didn't get to this point. The vote to bring it up was around 217 for, 205 against.

170

If they vote it down today, they'll just bring it back. That's what happens when we have an enemy of the country in charge of it.

It worked for Comprehensive POS, didn't it? Of course the Commiecrats will keep trying to destroy us; they're commiecrats. No reason not to swat them down each and every time.

171 Actually, poon's math (based on the map) is correct. It's just that (as I explained before) he's using incorrect terms. He's dividing an overall cost of one very specific metric by the total population, and saying that's the whole cost per person, when the original data in no way tried to represent the absolute and total overall cost of the program. So, the math is right, but used as support for a lie. Or just being really stupid.

172 Obamafraud in real time on climate change myth at press conf with merkie:

europe, in many ways, moved more rapidly than the us in addressing thsi issue

ive been blunt and frank with merkie - we are still working thru creatign the framework where we can help lead the intl framework

this legislation is enormous progress from where we have been...but we all recognize there is more to do

us must work with germany and world to make sure our obligations are "clear" and the emerging economies who risk high emissions from growth with "their obligations"

"very proud" of progress - energy bill an example of progress

with that framework, the us can be an important partner in this process

173 gator -- MY sister just had a baby too! Are you me? Am I having dissociative personality disorder?

174 The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the universal principle of increasing entropy, stating that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.

This unacceptable tyranny of entropy shall not be let stand, not in my district, not in my nation. Equilibrium belongs to the people, and we should be the ones who set entropy's maximum value, not entropy or some isolated system like ExxonMobil or The John Birch Society. This new bill will repeal the discriminatory Second Law of Thermodynamics, and will mean a huge step forward for our children and the wretched poor and the LGBLTQQWTL community, and penguins. And lots of flowers, flowers.

Me? No, I haven't read that bill.

175

There will fucking penguins everywhere.

That might be OK.

How do they taste?

Like chicken of course!  Very, very fishy chicken though.

176 With Poon's math... those extra 300 pages make all the difference.

177

"There is something called the "Best in Class Appliance Protocol" in which retailers will be given bonuses to sell appliances which are rated at the top in energy savings.  Consumers will be given stipends to trade in their old appliances and buy new ones (Cash for Clunkers for refrigerators)."

From Miss Marple, #77.  For Final Jeopardy, Large company that manufactures appliances who's  CEO's head has been buried deep inside Obama's colon like spackle or paste.  Alex, what is GE!

178

WASHINGTON – U.S. Reps. Joe Barton, R-Texas, ranking member of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, Greg Walden, R-Ore., ranking member of the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee, today asked Committee Chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Oversight Committee Chairman Bart Stupak, D-Mich., to begin an investigation on the process the Environmental Protection Agency used in developing its endangerment finding.

The endangerment finding, if formalized by a rule, would allow the EPA to regulate carbon dioxide under the Clean Air Act, something U.S. Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich., once called “a glorious mess.”

“It appears the administration and EPA administrator rushed to issue the proposed endangerment finding without considering fully substantive analysis and views of senior EPA career staff within the agency,” Barton and Walden wrote. “The attached EPA emails raise serious questions about the process for developing the proposed endangerment finding, whether analysis or information was suppressed because it did not support the administration and/or administrator’s proposed finding, and/or whether there is a fear within the agency that there will be negative consequences for offices that offer views critical of the prevailing views of the administrator and the administration.”

179

Are you me?

I don't know....are you wearing nothing but a condom, too?

180 He has ZERO job skills, and, much worse, shits his pants.

Posted by: gator at June 26, 2009 11:29 AM (yUiO3)

So he and Poon have a couple of things in common.

181

June 26 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. House cleared the way for a floor debate and vote on legislation to limit greenhouse-gas emissions, a top priority of President Barack Obama , amid heavy lobbying for and against the measure.

The House passed 217-205 a measure setting rules for final action on the bill, possibly later today. Majority Leader Steny Hoyer of Maryland, in a Bloomberg Television interview today, predicted the legislation will pass in a close vote.

 

182 I have a theory concerning bills under consideration. If you just assume any bill over 10 pages is a bad bill, you will be rignt 99-100% of the time.

183

I called Allen Boyd's office (FL 2nd). I called the local office and actually spoke with a very nice older gentleman who said Boyd was undecided (suprise! surprise!). The staffer informed me they were taking a tally, so I messaged all my friend's over facebook with Boyd's number. We'll see how Mr. Blue Dog Democrat (the blue dog who shares its natural habitate with the unicorn) votes.

It's nice to see that poon's here representing GE's perspective.

184
Whatever happens, I'm going to go burn a tire in celebration.

185

can't get thur to my congress critter, can't get on the website, no one answering the phones, voicemail full, website so busy i can't get in.

i feel so well represented...

 

186 Of course the Dems are saying it will pass.  That doesn't mean it will.  Melt down the phones.

187

Whatever happens, I'm going to go burn a tire in celebration.

It's better to light a tire than to curse Henry Waxman.

But I'm still going to do both.

188 Actually, poon's math (based on the map) is correct. It's just that (as I explained before) he's using incorrect terms.

franky, here's Gabriel's intro to the map he presented:

Now, via PowerLineBlog comes this map showing how much the Waxman-Markey cap-and-tax bill will cost:

http://minx.cc/?post=288926

Who is using "incorrect terms?"

189 Henry Waxman, the only representative with directional nostrils. You can count the nose hairs while looking him straight in the face.

190 Throw any Commie Bastard that votes for this out of office in 2010!

191

Every dollar this costs any viable company will be passed on to the consumer. Whether it's forty dollars or four thousand dollars, businesses aren't going to just eat it. You think electricity is expensive now, just wait.

Manmade attempts to stop global warming or cooling is like trying to push a string up a hill. Unless, of course, Lord O can actually control the sun. Last I heard he couldn't even control his fucking nicotine habit.

poon, I hope you are that idiot I was behind on the Tollway yesterday tooling along at 55. If so, the finger I gave you as I went past in my Explorer is again presented to you verbally.

192 Only $12 billion* to fix a non-existent problem?  Sounds like a bargain to us!



_{*in the first year.}

193

I don't know....are you wearing nothing but a condom, too?

Is it raining?

194

Throw any Commie Bastard that votes for this out of office in 2010!

There is something to be said for such a movement. I wonder if the Club For Growth is on it.

If s/he who votes for this shit is Republican RINO, mount a primary challenge. I don't care how entrenched s/he is. Make it hurt.

If s/he who votes for this shit is Democrat, rub his/hwer nose in it in the general.

195 poon -- Apparently both Gabe and you, neither of whom is me. Although it's possible that gator is me, because apparently we're wearing the same thing today.

196

IC and others,

How reliable, statistically, do you find the raw temperature data prior to 1940 to be? 

That is, do you believe that the raw temperature data prior to 1940 reliably and realistically provide a "global" and "average" temperature?

Does the coverage (% of the earth's surface) of such temperature "records" matter?  Does the way in which such "records" were measured matter?  I.e., who measured the temp, where, when, how often, using what, at what degree of precision, etc?

How would you answer the above for, say, the year 1870? Or, 1860? Or, 1915? These are reliable, statistically sound, scientifically consistent in coverage and methodology, and perfectly representative of a truly global "average" temperature, are they not?

Lastly, does it matter how many years of temperature data one has when determining if there is a statistically significant observable trend? 

197 Why in God's name do the Dems want to destroy our nation.  Why do they want everyone on their knees.  Man, they have a sickness, because what they are about to do will cause economic pain across this country.  They are going to hurt hard working people, the very people they say they represent.  These fucksticks are evil, and I still don't know why.

198

From the same place where they got the money to pay for social programs that pay girls a dollar a day not to get pregnant. And yet they claim they will have to cut fire and police because of budget woes.

 

This has NEVER been about science. As I said yesterday, the only people that actually believe this shit are the hard line insane Giai worshipers that believe anything. This has always been about pushing communism and facsim.

199 You should all know by now that in libland the only tax is income tax.  Anything else is just incidental.

200 The Obamabot next door is dutifully putting up solar panels on her (tile-covered) roof. My electrician was doing some work on our house and spoke with the solar guys. He reported that she's putting up a very expensive system that will have very little return/impact on her energy consumption/costs.

Meanwhile, this moronic neighbor was too broke to fix the fence that her dogs have been slamming against for years.

I hate the suburbs.

201 Apparently, I like the word apparently.

And it's now concerning me that my congressman (Douchbag -- Pennsylvania) is voting against the bill. The last time he was allowed to vote against was on TARP, just before the election. He was one of the few Nancy allowed to be seen as oppositional due to our district's less-than-thrilled-response to TARP. I'm wondering now if it's the same thing. They know it's going to pass, so they let people like him have cover.

Impossible to tell at this point, but it only strengthens my thesis you can only evaluate a legislator based on which bills they voted for that passed into law. Everything else is subject to gamesmanship.

202

Not much use but I did call my Reps office (Rangel - ugh).

Let us not forget that Henry Waxman helped the Code Pinkos deliver $500,000.00+  in "humanitarian aid" to the terrorists in Fallujah during  Nov.'04 offensive there.

203

Eyas @ 196

Here's one more question: how do gasses in the upper atmosphere stratify if they are in motion?

204 Another damn block copy error.

205 These effers are so full of themselves. Watching the debate on C-SPAN, all the libs can do is whack off to each other's wonderfulness, and repeat the same BS lies over and over. Markey's a pompous ass. He's blabbing about plugging up cars, like that's gonna save the world. Erm, pay for electricity, pay for gas, what's the damn difference?

206 If this passes and/or healthcare, it's game over.  We'll never get back.

207 My brother sells, services and installs solar water heaters and pool heaters.  One of his customers paid him to remove the solar panels from his house and gave him his generating system to boot.  The guy told him the system cost him $40,000 and saved him about 2% on his electric bill annually.

208 Waxman must have a teleprompter somewhere, he's going on and on about his speakers with their whole damn history. Suckup.

209

How reliable, statistically, do you find the raw temperature data prior to 1940 to be? 

 

That is part of the problem. Most of their trend is not based on actual measured temperature but “temperature markers” that they correlate to temperature by mathematical fudge factors.  Things such as tree ring density and plankton quantity in ocean sediment core bores. And even the measured temperatures are being compensated by  fudge factors.

 

They have never released the way they did these calculations and when someone tried to duplicate them based on what they have said they found massive errors.

 

What is funny about this is that EVERYTIME one of the “errors” is found it is in the direction that shows increased temperature trends. After the third event one can only conclude that it is intentional fraud.

 

All this being said, it is not about the science. The science behind this fraud has been proven wrong and they are still pushing full bore.

210  The guy told him the system cost him $40,000 and saved him about 2% on his electric bill annually.

Posted by: huerfano at June 26, 2009 12:02 PM (knHvu)

 

Now there's change we can believe in.

211 If this horseshit of a bill passes we are doomed.  The electric bill, gas bill, gasoline...will be off the charts.  Fuck it...I need a hit off the bottle of hootch.

212

I'm sure you'll provide us with a link to the unbiased source you got that figure from, Jay.

 

Um, coming from a clown linking to a map and using incorrect math to boot?

You do understand stupid, that using the fictitious numbers the CBO made up, that the costs would be $170 per year, right?

Anyway, speaking of links, I've always enjoyed this one:

Global warming is a hoax.

"I am of the opinion that this is one of the greatest hoaxes ever perpetrated on the American people," he says when I visit him in his office on a sunny spring afternoon.

He has testified about this to the United States Senate. He has written magazine articles, given speeches, done everything he could to get the message out. His scientific position relies heavily on what is known as the Argument From Authority. He's the authority.

"I've been in meteorology over 50 years. I've worked damn hard, and I've been around. My feeling is some of us older guys who've been around have not been asked about this. It's sort of a baby boomer, yuppie thing."

But what good is all that experience when it doesn't mesh with your feeling poon tang?

213 called Harry Mitchell D-AZ local office 480-946-2411, he is on the redstate swing list, registered my no request, again, they read my address to me , seems they know me already, gee wonder why :0)

214

The guy told him the system cost him $40,000 and saved him about 2% on his electric bill annually.  

 

 

Before I retired I read a write up in an industry journal about solar panels and cost-benefit. They did a study and said the only way you would ever reach a break even point was in a location like Southern CA where it had a LOT of sunshine and then only with gov subsidies and electric rates in excess of 15 cents/kw-hr.

 

Under those conditions you would reach the break even point in 10 years which about the expected lifetime of the system components. Take away ANY of those points and you never reach break even.

 

Of course Il Douche is trying to get you to the 15 cents/kw deal now.

215 I hate having my Rep. being Sam Farr- he loves anything that can kill off capitalism.
This and healthcare will destroy anyones incentive to start any kind of manufacturing business- it's really is like living a nightmare.

216 Um, coming from a clown linking to a map and using incorrect math to boot?

We've already determined that my math is correct and I'm just used the same map Gabriel breathlessly presented to us a few days ago.

Now, where's that link to an unbiased source that can back up your numbers?

Otherwise, my figure of $40 a year per American stands.

217

Rush is on right now saying there is a provision in the bill that Direct deposits tax payer's money into the accounts of poor people because the loss of purchasing power they will experience as a result of this bill.  Those of us who are paying that money will not be compensated for our losss of purchasing power.  Unfreakin' believable. 

This is completely O/T but so awesome.  Sarah Palin in Bosnia giving a speech to our military said the following:  "Senator John Kerry makes this joke..I don't John Kerry makes this joke...I don't know if you saw this...but he makes this joke saying "Well, shoot, of all the governors in the nation to disappear, too bad it couldn't have been that Governor from Alaska."

Well, when he said it he looked quite frustrated, and he looked so sad, and I just wanted to reach out to the TV and say "John Kerry, why the long face?"

(laughter)

218

Poon--here.

Now--go forth and purchase your carbon friendly head-in-ass removal device.

219 Otherwise, my figure of $40 a year per American stands.

Only if you continue to misrepresent it as you are doing.

As in, first year costs only, sure to rise, and applying no passed-along increases to the costs of other goods, loss of jobs, etc.

Again, all in pursuit of a solution to a non-existent problem.

220

I hate having my Rep. being Sam Farr- he loves anything that can kill off capitalism.

A lot of my fellow Calis suffering under Commiecrat misrule here! At least my congresscritter Dan Lungren is going the right way on this.

221

OT

Just checked Foxnation. It seems their commenters are just as appreciative of their wall to wall coverage of the croaking of the noseless zombie as we are. That is to say. not too....

222

Yep, this will definitely create jobs.

 

June 26 (Bloomberg) -- America’s biggest oil companies will probably cope with U.S. carbon legislation by closing fuel plants, cutting capital spending and increasing imports.

“It will lead to the opportunity for foreign sources to bring in transportation fuels at a lower cost, which will have an adverse impact to our industry, potential shutdown of refineries and investment and, ultimately, employment,” Mulva said in a June 16 interview in Detroit. Houston-based ConocoPhillips has the second-largest U.S. refining capacity.

The same amount of gasoline that would have $1 in carbon costs imposed if it were domestic would have 10 cents less added if it were imported, according to energy consulting firm Wood Mackenzie in Houston. Contrary to President Barack Obama’s goal of reducing dependence on overseas energy suppliers, the bill would incent U.S. refiners to import more fuel, said Clayton Mahaffey, an analyst at RedChip Cos. in Maitland, Florida.

 

223 Eyas @ #196, BackwardsBoy @ #203

Valid questions. As Vic @ #209 commented, historical temperature data tend to be localized data, fudge factors are applied to obtained a normalized global average. Most climate modelers try to verify these trends using climate models, which have been tested out in against current temperatures (just to be sure that the model is not making overly wild predictions) but models inherently have plenty of fudge factors themselves. And besides, I really don't think our understanding of climate processes is comprehensive enough to make these sort of assumptions. Re upper atmosphere, usually meteorologists tend to mean the stratosphere (usually > 10-12 km above sea levelt ), where the temperature and pressure gradients are fairly stable, hence long lived gases that make it up there don't get the mixing adn diluting effect felt in the lower atmosphere.

224

We've already determined that my math is correct

No stupid, you're asserting you are correct.

There is a difference.

Now, where's that link to an unbiased source that can back up your numbers?

So you are saying Gabe and PowerLine are "unbiased" now?

Don't worry, you're too dumb to understand what that word means...

225 Only if you continue to misrepresent it as you are doing.

Gabriel wrote "this map showing how much the Waxman-Markey cap-and-tax bill will cost:"

I am merely taking him at his word.

226

Uh, poon--three letters...

C

B

O

Care to comment?  I've tried at least half a dozen times now.  An unbiased observer would say that you are an intellectually dishonest peabrain.

Again, care to comment? 

227 Circa,

You link is to a study conducted back in June of 2001.

Got anything remotely connected to Waxman-Markey?

228

We've already determined that my math is correct and I'm just used the same map Gabriel breathlessly presented to us a few days ago.

Idiot:

THE MAP YOU LINKED TO SAYS THIS IN THE SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION:

This assumes that emissions in 2012 will equal the average for 2006-2008 - a very rough estimate that takes into account neither increased useage from economic growth nor possible efficiency gains.

 

229

Pelosi Leads The Congress Members Who Will Profit From Cap And Trade

 

http://tinyurl.com/m4o8mm

 

She also rammed this bill vote through so she could go on vacation ...

230

I am merely taking him at his word.

Huh?

That makes him an "unbiased source"?

Of course not, you dipshit.

231

We've already determined that my math is correct

Hilarious.

Divide $12 billion a year by 300,000,000 Americans and you get $40  a year.

Um, that isn't "math" that is "correct"

good grief are you stupid.

232 Well, it was a nice run....

This should pretty much kill the economy stone dead. It didn't have to be this way, but hey, props to BO. he wanted to take down the US and he's succeeding. If you can't be famous, be infamous.

Hello, third world!

Guess I'll figure out how to move my business to my garage and mostly work with barter.

233 Since we've now established that the cost of Waxman-Markey is minimal, shouldn't you oil company shills switch to a "slippery slope" type argument to have a hope of winning this debate?

234

As for costs of this bill one calculation I saw from the Heritage Foundation said that the “average” electric bill would increase by 90%. I have seen other estimates that it will go up by a factor of 4 or 5.

 

My electric bill last year was just over $1800. That alone even using the lower numbers shows a cost out of line with the idiotic CBO numbers.

 

And folks, this is ONLY the electric bill and doesn’t include the trickle down effects from all the other costs.

 

Pigface Waxman should be horsewhipped and run of town on a rail like used to be done to lying douche bags.

235 I just finished building a rickshaw, I plan on using it in town kind of like a taxi. Since we will be entering into a third world economy, I figured I might as well get a head start.  Thanks to a the Dems, I now have a great future, and maybe a future for my kids. 

236

"Since we've now established that the cost of Waxman-Markey is minimal..."

 

Translation: I CAN'T HEAR YOU  LALALALA!!!

237
I wish Gabriel Malor was here. I wonder what he'd say to poon.

238 I am not dishonest, just disingenuous.  And I really object to being called a peebrain.  My head is full of shit, not urine!

239 The Heritage Foundation, now there's an unbiased source.

/eyeroll


In its favor, I don't think all its funding comes from Exxon and Chevron.

Please provide us with a link to this "study" so we can examine it's "facts," Vic.

240 @234

Yeah, that's the goofy thing. This thing increases cost at every step in goods from manufacturing to shipping to stocking to sales. Services the same.

That famous multiplying effect that Dims always like to talk about is about to get a great walkout with this. At every step of the way for everything, costs will increase and be passed on to the customer.

If you don't understand that, you're a moron.(the bad kind).

241

The CBO analysis estimated that the bill would cost an average household $175 a year; the EPA put it at between $80 and $110 a year.

Republicans questioned the validity of the CBO study and noted that even that analysis showed actual energy production costs increasing $770 per household. Industry groups have cited other studies showing much higher cost to the economy and to individuals.

 

Anyone see $40 in any of those estimates?

242

So far (from Fox)

 

The vote was 217-205 to advance the White House-backed legislation to the floor, and 30 Democrats defected, a reflection of the controversy the bill sparked.

 

Remember they need 218 votes to pass this POS.

243

shouldn't you oil company shills switch to a "slippery slope" type argument to have a hope of winning this debate?

What is most comical about this is this imbecile is basing the "minimal" cost based on a map produced by the National Mining Association.

Too rich, jerkoff. Just too rich...

244
This ought to work out well for the Democrat Party.  Voting yes on a bill that will be the death of coal, oil, and natural gas.  They just pissed away Virginia, West Virginia, western Pennsylvania, Wyoming, North Dakota and a few other places.  And just wait until every electric and gas bill goes up!  That will make people happy.  And when people you know start complaining, just tell the that they should blame the Democrat Party and their Cap and Trade Tax bill.

245

Since we've now established that the cost of Waxman-Markey is minimal, shouldn't you oil company shills switch to a "slippery slope" type argument to have a hope of winning this debate?

OK, mea culpa--I cited the 2001 CBO study vice the 2009 version.  Here's a footnote from the 2009 version, poon:

"The resource cost does not indicate the potential decrease in gross domestic product (GDP) that could result from the cap."

Want to talk about costs now, genius?

246

Poon-

The CBO says it will cost $175 per family per year. But that is for the year 2020, before the restrictions ramp up. More importantly, that only pays for the operating costs of the program. 12 billion is required to simply run cap and trade for one year, could very well be a lowball number, and completely ignores the impact on the economy.

From the CBO report, copied from WSJ:
"The resource cost does not indicate the potential decrease in gross domestic product (GDP) that could result from the cap."

Stop with the bullshit. This is a lot bigger than you and your buddies make it out to be.

247 Save your turds, they can be dried, and burned for heat. 

248

Steve Hayward at NRO says Pelosi may pull it. Not enough votes.

FWIW.

249 You're all paid by filthy oil company money!  I'm paid by Chinese agents to help destroy your country, so I'm much better than you!

250 From NRO

Cap and Trade Being Pulled?   [Steve Hayward]

Word flying around D.C. as of 1:30 is that Waxman-Markey is being pulled, suggesting Pelosi doesn't have the votes. It may be they need a little more time to buy off one or two more people, or possibly they simply can't get enough committed votes (I am sure more than a few Democrats say they will vote "Yes" as necessary, but have a deal for cover with a "No" vote, which is complicating the whip count). Stay tuned. As Drudge would say, developing . . .

251 The CBO says it will cost $175 per family per year.

So, the CBO study estimates Waxman-Markey will cost a family of four  $43.75 per person per year.

The $40 per person per year I estimated by doing two minutes of math using Gabriel's map is waaaay off.

252 "I wish Gabriel Malor was here. I wonder what he'd say to poon."

Isn't it "No, thank you."?

253

Poon seems to be spot-on concerning the operations costs associated with this piece of shit, but he just can't grasp (or chooses to ignore) the "impact to the economy" costs. I wonder why?!?

254

Hey, I cried like a little girl when I saw that penguin egg freeze and crack in  "March of the Penguins".  If I can save one baby penguin by driving a big truck and feeding frijoles to my cattle, then I say it's worth it.

 

255

But since you're all so thick-headedly against saving Mother Gaia, I volunteer to pay for all of your extra taxes myself.

 

When I get a job, that is.

 

Know of anyone hiring people on the sex offender registry?

256 If poon needs a job, I hear that the Neverland Ranch is in need of a new head child rustler.

257 That idiot Butterfield from broke-ass NC coastal regions thinks this will help his folks - sure, when they get money from the rest of us. ASSHAT! He has no clue.

258

^^^
Isn't he that white guy posing as a black guy to get in the CBC and hold onto his seat in a minority-majority district? If so, yeah, he's a douche.

259

I made this point a couple of days ago in the "Cap and Tax: How Much Will it Cost" post; but it's worth repeating for those that think the costs of this bill will be minimal...

---

The cost of a thing is directly and largely related to the cost of production and the supply chain. 

If I sell you "teh stuff®" for $1 and it costs me $0.75 to make and ship to you, I make a profit of $0.25. If suddenly my cost of doing business goes up $0.30 because, say, the energy to make "teh stuff®" goes up $0.10, the plasic to make "teh stuff®" goes up $0.10 (because it now costs my supplier more to produce the plastic), and shipping the plastic to me and "teh stuff®" to you costs $0.10 more, I can no longer sell you "teh stuff®" for $1; unless my plan is to take the fast train to OutOfBusinessVille.

I have no choice but to sell you "teh stuff®"  for $1.50, because a $0.25 profit does'nt buy as much as it used to... 

See, if just the rent on my warehouse went up, I would probably only have to increase the price to $1.10. But since energy is used in every single step in the supply chain, it has a cumulative effect.

---

That is basic economics...

Now apply the above senario to EVERY SINGLE THING YOU BUY! The more components something has and the more steps it has to go through to get from raw materials to the store, the more expensive it will be.

Everything...

What Eyas said in that post linked above is worth repeating again... because it can't be said loud or often enough:

"This massive increase in price happens to ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING produced in this country.  And, not just retail stuff. Not only do your costs increase for electricity, so do your costs of buying ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING ELSE. Your electricity costs quadruple, but the cost of ALL of your raw materials increases as well.  You pay much more to make your widgets AND you also pay much more for the plastic that your widgets are made of, as well as for the cement & steel that your building is made of, the plumbing, the wiring, the tile floor, the doors, the windows, your car, your clothes, your food, and ... oh, by the way, the massive increases in salaries that ALL of your employees need as a cost-of-living increase to be able to afford their own electric bills. Each increased cost, in addition to all of your other costs, has a multiplicative effect on the price that you must charge for your products, just to stay in business"

Truely freightening...

Anyone want to expand on what happens to the overall ecomony when EVERYTHING starts to cost more?

Don't forget about inflation being right around the corner...

260 Yup bunny-boy, that's him. Playing that game got his fat ass elected, and the illiteracy race in those areas will probably keep him there. They sadly don't know any better.

261 he just can't grasp (or chooses to ignore) the "impact to the economy" costs

Exactly how much is a $12 billion cost going to effect a $14 trillion economy, bunny?

It's the same cost as conducting the Iraq War for a single month, btw.

The bill is also expecting to stimulate the development and sale of renewable energy generation equipment.

Never see the oil company shills talking about that.

262
261:

No one is typing about the impact of the 12 billion. We're referring to the inevitable drag on economic growth caused by an increase in energy costs. Do you really believe that limiting energy generated by fossil fuels (and its associated use) will not have an impact on the economy? Or are you saying that this bill won't really have any impact on the amount of energy derived from fossil fuels in the first place? If it's the former, you're high. If it's the latter, then please tell me what the fucking point of the legislation is.

263 The absurdity of the trolls argument is that 'only' $12 billion is such a massive amount to force this sea change in US energy usage.

This is legislated coercion, nothing more-- it's designed to put onerous costs to use of frowned-upon energy sources.

Frankly, $12b is such a flyspeck in the scheme of things that such a miniscule amount could no possibly have any of the desired effects.  The actual cost must be much, much higher to have the effect of abusing people into (hope and) change.  Therefore, not the pittance that they're claiming.

264

"The bill is also expecting to stimulate the development and sale of renewable energy generation equipment."

In the real world? No, because no one will be able to afford to buy the stuff.

It takes grid power to make solar panels. Mines to dig up the silicon, PETROLEUM (BOO!) to make the plasic, trucks to transport it all...

Those solar panels will cost 3 times as much as they do today, even WITH the subsidies (tax money that people that can afford to buy solar panels have already paid).

And you're raping mother earth to boot with all the mines and trucks and refineries making the plastics...

You just keep on taking other peoples word for the fantasy world you live in poon... it makes you look smart. seriously.

265

I don't know if this was all ready posted

from Redstate:

Greenpeace has now come out against Cap & Trade too. Why? Because the envirowackos say the legislation will do no good to solve global warming.

In other words, the Democrat leadership wants to strangle our economy for nothing

266

Never see the oil company shills talking about that.

But the renewable energy generation equipment shills never STFU.

Poon works for a solar panel manufacturer no doubt.

267 Thad McCotter R-MI on the floor today speaking against cap n trade, love this guy!

268 How many Yuan is $40?  I'm not sure if my commission from the Chinese will cover all of your taxes.

269 Frankly, $12b is such a flyspeck in the scheme of things that such a miniscule amount could no possibly have any of the desired effects.

You'd be amazed how much change a minimal charge can bring about compared to something that costs nothing now, nickless.

It's just basic Econ 101.

The moment something that's been free begins to cost something,  people will balance the cost of it vs. other expenditures.

Would you continue to visit a blog that started charging you $40 a year?

270 the mucketymucks in finance ie Pimcos Bill Gross et al (not the 'economists' who talk cheap but dont work for a living heh), anywho they say the 'new normal' for GDP is 2.-2.5% a yr, so when the drag of -4.5 gdp a yr from this waxman markey bill hitw, that alone would put us at -2.5% GDP a year eff 2020 ...that is without all the other crxp piled on top of it

we cannot afford this, that should be the message to Dems

271
You'd be amazed how much change a minimal charge can bring about compared to something that costs nothing now, nickless.

My energy isn't free now.  Between gasoline, electricity, and gas, I'm not going to notice $40 a year being passed on to me.  Therefore, it will not be $40 a year, since that will not coerce me into conforming to the Green Religion.  It will be much, much higher.

272 The charge is for your CO2 emissions, nickless.

273 I enjoy poon very much.
He gives us great insight into the Liberal mind without trying.
Everything that doesn't agree with his preconceived (dare I say prejudiced) view of the world is to be disregarded.
Any disagreement is not just wrong, but morally inferior (Exxon-Mobil is bad!).

And anything that involves dynamic scoring?
Math is a tool of oppression that keeps Liberals from creating utopia in our time!!1!11eleventythousand!!

274 One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that artificially raising the cost of everything by mandating something like this scheme does not CREATE jobs. It shifts them. And not even efficiently.

The only way that green tech (or any tech for that matter) has a net creation effect on employment is if it makes business more efficient and reduces its costs. When costs go up, employment goes down. It's very, very simple.

The notion that any of this mandated inefficiency helps anything is completely fallacious. Of course, one can make the argument that, in the future, this will all pay off in eventual increased efficiency. If that were the case, then we could have a net benefit over time. However, I'm not seeing anyone, including the President, make that argument. Probably because that's a guessing game.

Of course, they seem to have no qualms about flat out lying that mandated inefficiency creates jobs in the here and now, though, this is probably what's coming next.

275

The big question I have is that currently 70% of our generation mix is fossil fuel.  It is physically impossible to convert that to their supposed clean bullshit. So where are they planning on getting all of this new generation?  People, you had best stat buying generators before the costs goes up like post hurricane gouging.

 

It is going to get mighty dark in the cities and the animals will riot and go crazy like always.

276 fucking idiot of the day:

Republicans are playing into the hands of the Iranian regime and the Saudi Arabian kingdom, Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.) argued Friday.

Weiner said that Republicans' opposition to the climate change bill scheduled for a vote this afternoon benefits the oil-rich companies, which have been accused of funneling some of that money to terrorist groups.

"Ahmadinejad, the Saudi Kingdom — they want exactly what my Republican friends are advocating," Weiner said on the floor during the debate ahead of this afternoon's vote.

"We can't come to the floor and say I'm outraged at what's going on in Iran…and then come to the floor and continue the policies that are paying for them!" Weiner added.

The New York lawmaker, once a prospective candidate for mayor of New York City, praised Democratic colleagues for acting on climate change.

277 The charge is for your CO2 emissions, nickless.

Again, there is no difference.  Any miniscule surcharge is not going to make me outlay for more expensive 'green' technology or buy a hybrid golf cart or spend extra for 'green' appliances.  If it comes to excessive expenditures to avoid $40, it's not a choice.

If the 'tax' for my evil living is such a pittance, it will not change my behavior.  THEREFORE, it will be far, far more, and those advocating it know it will be.

278 Start a new thread!

279 cantor speakingon the floor now on this

he kinda sounds like elmer fuud...

280 <i>How reliable, statistically, do you find the raw temperature data prior to 1940 to be?</i>
Between poor and exceedingly foul somewhere.

<i>Does the coverage (% of the earth's surface) of such temperature "records" matter?</i> Absolutely to the whole block of questions there.


<i>How would you answer the above for, say, the year 1870? 1860? 1915?</i> All in ‘poor approaching fair.’ but not random, reliable, sound, or consistent.

<i>Lastly, does it matter how many years of temperature data </i> Yes. As far as I’m concerned, the ‘solid’ data is restricted to the satellite data. We have an almost acceptable record in the United States and a few select places prior to that - but they are far too scattered and befouled to consider for constructing a global temperature average. China, Russia, Africa and South America are all drastically under sampled, and the majority of the samples we do have are too urbanized.

281 Poon works for a solar panel manufacturer no doubt.

You're giving him too much credit. My guess is that he's either a paid troll or a trust fund brat who has a heated pool, plays his X-Box on a 60 inch tv, is recharging his I-Phone, doesn't turn the lights out when he leaves the room, etc.

I love how these younguns give us all tips on how to save energy that were obvious long ago to those of us who pay our own electric bills

282 nickless,

You're exactly correct. Incenting your good behavior must involve a set of costs that outstrips the savings of doing nothing OR a set of benefits that do the same. Nothing else will change behavior.

283 247 Save your turds, they can be dried, and burned for heat.  Posted by: Sparky

Nominated for Thread Winnah!!!

284 When I see Algore taking a bus, flying commercial and living in a 2500 sq ft condo, I'll believe that maybe there's something to AGW

285 Let me correct my "good behavior" comment above.
Who judges "good behavior" is generally subjective.
I was taking the position of those for the carbon tax.

I am against the carbon tax and deride the idea that it's "good" to avoid "global warmening".

286 Maybe they are waiting for the markets to close.  I would expect the market to go up if this bill is yanked.  It should plunge if it passes.

287

RedState is reporting that the Democrats may have started the rumor that they yanked the vote; they are reporting that sources indicate that it is a ruse to buy time for more votes.

288 Any miniscule surcharge is not going to make me outlay for more expensive 'green' technology

For you neaderthals who won't do anything daddy the government tells you to, this really is just an additional tax, but for corporations that could save millions of dollars a year...they'll go green when it makes economic sense.

289 From Michelle Malkin:

At approx. 2:35pm Eastern, GOP Rep. Joe Barton announced that there is now a placeholder in the bill to be determined later.
Barton notes that this is unprecedented. He can’t recall any final passage of a bill that has a placeholder in it.

This is unfucking believable.

290 Would you continue to visit a blog that started charging you $40 a year?

Posted by: poon at June 26, 2009 01:33 PM (i31Zq)

 

The difference being it would be our decision to pay the expense or not. With this the charge will be imposed on us. Free market vs. government mandates. Assclown.

291

"Would you continue to visit a blog that started charging you $40 a year?"

Maybe, if I found the content worth it.

That's a strawman arguement though... a better question is:

Would you continue buying *insert simple pleasure here. I.E. nice resteraunt once a week\fast food\gourmet coffee\drive in the contry\etc.* if :

Your electric bill went up $50\month, your water bill went up $10\month, your grocery bill went up $100\month, gas for your car went up $2\gallon, Your credit card intrest went up 5 percentage points, Your World of Warcraft monthly fee went up $10\month, and your cable bill went up $25\month?

No?

You just don't get it... EVERYTHING WILL GO UP, as you say, "just a little bit" because EVERYTHING YOU BUY USES GRID POWER.

The kicker? It won't be" just a little bit... My guess is 25%-50% increase on everything within months if this passes.

Why? look at what happened to the price of cigarettes when the tax passes. As soon as it passed, manufaturers jacked up the price because they knew that more people would quit smoking...

Everything you stop doing because of TAXES, hurts the ecomony.

That is econ 101.

292 But then, since this is such a piddling expense, it won't be enough for the corporations to change their behaviour, either.  I guess we'll just have to break out the tanks and community organizers like my paymasters in China....

293
For you neaderthals who won't do anything daddy the government tells you to, this really is just an additional tax, but for corporations that could save millions of dollars a year...they'll go green when it makes economic sense.

Or, if it's just $40 a year, they'll just pass it on and everyone will pay the trivial $3.20/month on top of their $300-1000/mo energy costs, and no one will really notice.

Unless it's expensive enough to change behavior, it won't change behavior.  Which is why it WILL BE EXPENSIVE.

294 I would be happy to pay you $40 in carbon credits Tuesday for a hamburger today.

295 One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that artificially raising the cost of everything by mandating something like this scheme does not CREATE jobs. Posted by: mr.frakypants

Dr. Gabriel Calzada detailed the inconvenient truth of these schemes as Spain has tried and failed.
 
“…every renewable job created by the Spanish government destroyed an average of 2.2 other jobs. Each “green” megawatt installed in Spain destroyed 5.39 jobs in non-energy sectors, the study found.”

296

"For you neaderthals who won't do anything daddy the government tells you to, this really is just an additional tax, but for corporations that could save millions of dollars a year...they'll go green when it makes economic sense."

Corporations don't pay taxes dipshit, they pass them on to the customer.

You ever notice that when a business is taxes, prices go up?

\Can't believe this needs to be said

P.S. The federal goverment isn't suppose to be telling us what to do...

Frikkin sheeple.

BAAAAAAAH!

 

297 You'll work in the silicon mines and toxic battery factories and like it, you filthy oil company whores!

298 Called my guy John Hall in NY 19. Probably won't do any good as he's a D.

299 247 Save your turds, they can be dried, and burned for heat.

I figure we could just vote them out of office, but to each his own.

300 Holy crap!
Kucinich, Dennis Ohio is on the solid no list. I guess the aliens really do want to change our atmosphere.

301 "Monica Conyers Brings Good News To Detroit"

302 That damned Kucinich!  And he already cashed the check we sent him!  Someone's going to become an organ donor tonight in Beijing because of this!

303
If the Cap and Trade Tax bill is passed by the House and Senate and then signed into law by Obama it will be the best thing that could happen to America.  Why?  Because it will be the third strike against the Democrat Party legislation wise.  In 2010 there will be a record turnover in seats in the House and any Democrat Senator that manages to keep his seat (if any does) will be the exception and not the rule.  First Porkulous, second Obama's record deficits, and third the C & T tax (aka the biggest tax increase in American history).  The elections in 2010 will be a bloodbath for the Dem's. 

304 Spencer Bachus on the floor just now speaking against the HUGE derivatives market this cap n trade monster will create here

305 Nah, it won't be a bloodbath.  You oil company shills aren't worth the bullets.  We'll probably use poison gas or something like that to keep you from voting Democrats out of their rightful positions.

306

305

poon tang

A BLOODBATH is coming ...take it in the election booth..or take it in the streets....

just sayin is all.....

307 The giant oil company Greenpeace is apparently now firmly against the bill. Who knew Exxon had such deep pockets?

308 We'll be ready.  Why do you think our Great President Obama is studying Iran so closely?

309

308

So he can get a real good picture of what it would be like if those stones were AR-15's.............

And half the ARMY switched sides.

Not a pretty picture for the Gubmint

310 When you are forced to move into green housing, you won't be allowed to take your guns and bibles.  A free copy of "Earth in the Balance" will be be given as compensation.

311 After you pay a $500 "printed paper product" tax per book, of course.

312 Please come and try to force my family into green housing, Poon. Please.

I promise to compost your remains.

313

Chris Horner is reporting that Dems have the votes they need for Cap and Destroy, but they are strong arming people to get to 230. I have a feeling I'm going to be telling people in my district about how Allen Boyd sold us out.

314 This just in from Obama ...

People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out.

.. Sorry that wasn't Obama .. rather it was Rodney King

315

I forgot to add that Chris Horner's from NRO's Planet Gore.

316 CBO Grossly Underestimates Cost of Cap and Trade   [...]  

Most problematic is the CBO's complete omission of the economic damage resulting from restricted energy use. As footnote 3 on page 4 of the CBO analysis reads, "The resource cost does not indicate the potential decrease in gross domestic product (GDP) that could result from the cap. The reduction in GDP would also include indirect general equilibrium effects, such as changes in the labor supply resulting from reductions in real wages and potential reductions in the productivity of capital and labor."[4] In The Heritage Foundation's analysis of the Waxman-Markey climate change legislation, the GDP hit in 2020 was $161 billion (2009 dollars). For a family of four, that translates into $1,870--a pretty big chunk of change that the CBO is ignoring.

It is also worth noting that, of the 24 years analyzed by The Heritage Foundation's Center for Data Analysis (CDA), 2020 had the second lowest GDP loss. Furthermore, the CDA found that for all years the average GDP loss was $393 billion, or over double the 2020 hit. In 2035 (the last year analyzed by Heritage) the inflation adjusted GDP loss works out to $6,790 per family of four--and that is before they pay their $4,600 share of the carbon taxes.[5] The negative economic impacts accumulate, and the national debt is no exception. The increase in family-of-four debt, solely because of Waxman-Markey, hits an astounding $114,915 by 2035.[6]

http://tinyurl.com/mjcxls

Read the whole thing.

317

The CBO is nothing but oil company shills.  The cost will only be $40 a year, and that will be more than made up with tax credits and raising taxes on the winners of life's lottery.

318

Chris Horner is reporting that Dems have the votes they need for Cap and Destroy, but they are strong arming people to get to 230. I have a feeling I'm going to be telling people in my district about how Allen Boyd sold us out.

Posted by: niclun at June 26, 2009 02:44 PM (IVChG)

 

If that's true then the bastards who voted for the crippling unemployment it will cause ought to be voted out of a job next year.

319 There will be no unemployment.  There will always be jobs in the national mines and battery factories.  And the newly-established re-education-through-labour camps, if you're a denier.

320 The moonbats really are loosing it. Nate Silver takes this map (similar to Gabe's) and analyses it by means of how many votes Democrats can pick up due to this legislation with it in the next election. Hilarity ensues. http://tinyurl.com/mnq9pt

321

MM  live blog:

 

4:02pm: Barney Frank on the floor. The placeholder has to do with regulating financial derivatives related to reducing carbon emissions. Says he’s confident they’ll have a good system in place.

 

Hahahahaha, they haven’t even passed it yet and they are already regulating it. These people are truly dumb SOBs.

322 From Nate Silver's "analysis":

There is a fair amount of state-to-state variance, although it is exaggerated somewhat by the presence of a couple of outliers: Florida and D.C. on the one side and Wyoming and Alaska, which I think are being punished for the use of personal jet travel, on the other. The key question for the bill's passage might be whether Democrats can pick up some Republican votes in large, coastal states like Florida, California, New York, and North Carolina, each of which appears to be associated with below-average costs to end-users. Conversely, most of the places with the highest direct costs are places where the Democrats weren't likely to pick up many votes anyway, although this does suggest that votes like Mark Begich's in Alaska and Mary Landireu's in Louisiana will be tough ones if this gets to the Senate."

Talk about alternate reality.

323

TheQuietMan,

That's exactly what my husband and I are trying to do by getting involved in our local politcal scene. My husband went to a fundraiser for Boyd's only opponent so far (I stayed home with the little ones), but we hope this guy is a viable candidate. We are certainly going to our best to help him.

324 Anyone who believes that CBO estimate is crasy. I think even the Heritge estimates are low.

325

Holy crap!
Kucinich, Dennis Ohio is on the solid no list. I guess the aliens really do want to change our atmosphere.

Posted by: Iblis at June 26, 2009 02:10 PM

Kucinich is against the bill because he thinks it isn't tough enough on the electric companies.  Tin Foil Denny wants to see the utility companies' bones picked clean.

326 You will not believe have awesome this lace wig looks when it's draped over my tiny junk.

327 Well, I don't have to worry what my Congressman, Patches Kennedy, is going to do. He's currently working on a bill entitled "Federal Ban on Bugs Crawling Around Under My Skin". I'm not sure he'll have time for anything as trivial as this vote.

328 Live on CSPAN: Waxman and Forbes debating the Forbes Amendment, striking the rest of the bill and offering prizes for those that develop new technology. I don't like the Forbes Amendment, but it will make the bill unpassable on the Dems side. Waxman is truly a deceitful, horrible man. I don't think I've ever seen a crazier moonbat in my life. I've heard some pretty ridiculous lies from the Left, but this is absolutely ridiculous.

Update: "America voted for action, not additional studies." - Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland, Majority Leader)

What the hell?! This is like saying, "Don't ever think before you act. Don't read the instructions before you put that machine together. We're on a time-table here. No time for that science mumbo-jumbo."

I seriously can't believe these guys can get away with this without having to dodge the lynchmob back home.

329 I am livid. Just called my congressman Frank Pallone's DC office. Garrett and Stephanie could not tell me specifically why Pallone is supporting this bill other global warming (knocked that one down) and job creation. Specifically asked what jobs were going to be created in his district from this job and why i should be expected to pay more for my utilities. Garrett told me that NJ will be behind only California in green job creation (isn't that working out for california). I hate these statists. May their souls rot in hell.

330 Boehner is going through the 300 page 3:09am addition page by page. Any fool who votes for this after the things Boehner has pointed out deserves to be hung out to dry.

331

I'd call my Rep_{except that that hobgoblin is, you know, the sponsor of the bill.}

I do look forward to pissing on his grave someday, though.

332

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