1 Why do they hate Texas so?

2 Mostly right?

3 A serious chunk of why 'the west' is green on there is called the Columbia River. Grand Coulee alone could power Seattle and Portland at peak.

4 So we know the bill won't do anything of note about "global warming/climate change/lurking grues" - is it possible the real intent is just to take money from moderate/conservative states and give it to left leaning ones?

5 Hmm, electoral map of 2012?

6

AGW is a tenet of the liberal political religion. It'd be easier to get Catholics to disabuse themselves of The Holy Trinity that to get leftys off 'global warming'.

Nah, we're pretty much fucked with this bill.

7 Why do they hate Texas so?

Because it contains the evil warmongering BOOOOOOOSH.  If he would just move to Idaho, you'd see some big ol' negatives there too.

8 Red States, and Green States.  The morons live in the green states.  In the apartment downstairs!

9 We don't know yet how this thing will play out.

10 "Cap-and-tax does nothing except hamstring our economy"

You say that like it's a bug, and the main feature.

11 I never thought I'd see MA as a red state.

12

That map says all the average person needs to know to piss them off enough to maybe do something about it.

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

13 Almost makes me sorry to live in Texas--for a split second.

14 Why do we need this? I thought that Barry's mere presence was healing the earth. Didn't his speech in Cairo stop global warming?

15

Barry put the "O" in Overreach

16 There is a fourth premise missing. They are assuming that human activity can reverse these effects.

17 Sadly, Ed Markey will be reelected by the moonbats in his MA district without breaking a sweat.

18 Oh BTW, I just want to thank all you Morons out there who will be paying for my free electricity.  Finally, a reason to stay in WA state!

19 1 Why do they hate Texas so?

Because it's a state with a rapidly growing economy.  This is a pretty blatant redistribution of wealth to failed states...like California.  Or New York.  The map makes this pretty apparent.

20

It benefits my state? Hah. Sorry, Pigman, still don't want it.

21 Ok, I am really not a an idiot, a moron perhaps but...would someone answer me this question:

How will this crap waste of legislation help the liberal states only? Believe me, I'm against this completely but looking at the map it looks like its written with constituencies in mind. Please elaborate.

22

Yah, well I'm struggling to afford the electricy bills now.  If I ain't got it, than you can't redistribute it.

I guess thats what those big thinkers up in DC don't understand.

23 Obama simply hates the human race.

24

Wait. Aren't West Virginia and Alabama already two of the poorest states in the union? I mean, sure, it appears that they will be paying huge but can we get a map that shows the return on welfare dollar? Maybe I won't feel so bad for them afterall.

25 no love for the homies in the LOL...ah well, the kuklaks here are accustomed to it

26 Although if we really didn't have to pay for electricity...hmmmm....

27 Lace wigs?

28 I'm not paying any extra taxes, I'm a senator and I worked very hard prostituting myself for votes. And call me senator.

29 If this thing passes the damage it does should be hung around the necks of the Democrats like the stinking albatross that it is and affect elections for a generation.

30 Lace wigs?

Posted by: Masturbatin' Pete at June 23, 2009 09:27 PM (sfRWa)

Barry will be taxing those too.

31 Can we round up the enviromentalists and drop them off a cliff? Seriously. They're the reason we can't develop any new energies or increase nuclear power use. Or build new infrastructure. Can we pleeeeeease toss them? Pretty please? With a cherry on top?

32 TendStl

Ok, I am really not a an idiot, a moron perhaps but...would someone answer me this question:

How will this crap waste of legislation help the liberal states only? Believe me, I'm against this completely but looking at the map it looks like its written with constituencies in mind. Please elaborate.

We're getting screwed in MA - Ed Markey's home state. 

33 Here's a slogan for them:

"Air conditioning and heat... Your forefathers didn't need it, and neither do you. But don't worry, we'll still have it here in DC"

The GOP needs to paste this map to every possible means of conveyance. Now.

34

"Oh look everybody" (claps his hands) "It looks like Christmas!  I love Christmas!  Barack is making every day here in America Christmas!"  (jumps up and down) "Goody Goody Gumdrops, I mean Skittles!"

35 28 What do you mean, you don't pay any taxes now?

36

Bwahahaha!

California pulls a profit for once!

OK all you Gaia HATERS, get in line with the new order.

http://tiny.cc/4xr5R

California Uber Alles!

37 Damn sockpuppet... that was me at 33

38

Sweet I can crank up the heat in my swimming pool and people in other states will pay for it!

39 So how exactly does California come out ahead?  I don't get it.

40 Palosi and Reid have the votes locked up.. Consider yourself  fornicated.

41

Barry put the "O" in Overreach

Barry put the "O" in Omigawd!

42
FYI -- AoSHQ is approaching 50 million visits

Just like Obama...it's historic.

43 Can I hire illegals to power my human sized hamster wheel that'll run the AC and heat in my house? That's green, right?

...right?

44 Gabe, this is what you are up against and clusterstock is a WS venue.  "Cap And Trade Will Cost Households Just $175 Annually"  This is the newer article on the site:  "The Climate Bill Is Now 1,201 Pages Long"

45

Living in a trailer is looking pretty good right now.

46 Fuck this bill:

Waxman can just suck up all the emissions with his huge fucking snout; starting with the huge, smelly-ass fart I'm about to lay. 

47 I am in WA and I want to thank all the morons from elsewhere for my new windfall of $202.00. That's alot of Val U Rite. Thank you

48

"So how exactly does California come out ahead?  I don't get it."

It's NOT for you to get, it's for you to PAY.

And PAY you all shall you rethuglicans (sp?)!

Bwahahahah

49

43 That would give them a job that barry could then count as created or saved.

So YES YOU CAN!

50 Sorry Momma, but I will beat you to the post. WV. is #1 in getting screwed. The Buckeye state of Ohio is # 2 in getting screwed. 

51

Of course the map shows that the Gaza Strip and West Bank will benefit from this draconian boondoggle.

52 Every time I see waxman's pig face I think of Ned Beatty.

53

50  Excuse me, but everything is bigger in Texas, including my share of caps to trade.

54
Why does California benefit? Easy: you can't expect to burden 10 million illegal immigrants with the Global Warming caused by the White Man, can you?

55 Based on that chart, it would seem Obama should've said that 95% of you WILL pay higher taxes.

56 So the rust belt states get it on both ends. Energy costs skyrocket, and mining for coal, etc will decline taking jobs with it.

Does that count towards the created or saved total? I mean, this bill saves a bird or something right? And 1 bird = 1,000 jobs after all.

57 muffy

Gabe, this is what you are up against and clusterstock is a WS venue.  "Cap And Trade Will Cost Households Just $175 Annually"  This is the newer article on the site:  "The Climate Bill Is Now 1,201 Pages Long"

I hope Boehner throws it on the floor like he did with the stimulus bill.

58 Okay, I think I get it.  California doesn't really come out ahead.  If you read the footnote on the table, it says that the map represents electricity GENERATED within a state, but that the legislation allocates credits based on electricity CONSUMED in a state.  The two aren't the same because places like California don't produce a lot of electricity, they just buy it from out of state.  The same is undoubtedly true in a place like South Dakota.  But if you look at the bottom line, since there aren't enough credits to go around anyway, EVERYBODY is screwed, blue states and red states alike.

59 A quick question for the folks in Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina, Indiana, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Colorado - you know, all the states that were Bush or close in 2004 and went for the Teleprompter Messiah this time around:

So, how's Barry's ass tasting these days?

But I'm sure they'll figure-out a way that this will only hit people in those states making $250K or more.  Right?

60
it's all about social justice, dummies

61 54

Don't those 10 million leaf blowers contribute to global warming?

62 Let us rename it the "Economic Collapse and Civil War Bill".

63 newsjunkie_ky

Every time I see waxman's pig face I think of Ned Beatty.

EEEEEWWWW!

64 Waxman visits dirty whores. A man with a nose like that can't get laid any other way.

65 That's funny, every time I think of Waxman's pig face, I think of...a pig.

66 oh great! just what the rust belt needs. what a kick in the nuts this bill is gonna be.

67

Hiya loppyd,

Waxman is doing to us what happened to poor ole Ned.

68

Are we going to have to rely on good sensibilities of Congress to save us?

That comes uncomfortably close to a humorous prediction I made almost a year ago if The One®™ were to be elected.

69 And now you know why he wants to get all this stuff done right now.  He knows people are going to grumble and complain about it.  But he figures that in 3-1/2 yrs time, the stupid American voting bloc who voted him in the first time will have forgotten all about it (i.e., reverted to form) and he'll be ushered in on a new wave of hope.

70 Frankly, I can't see how this will benefit Democrats.  If it does pass, they lose huge as soon as people's anuses (ani?) start bleeding from the bills.  If it doesn't pass, it's still something to remind voters about come 2010 and beyond...

71 They could call this the "Re-elect A Republican Congress Act". The mid-west gets clobbered hard. Which means it will likely never come to pass.

72 23 Obama simply hates the human race.

Katya, not far from it.  Many leftist policies are explicitly NOT in favor of life.  Abortion, euthanasia, socialized healthcare(rationed to the elderly and terminally ill) collectivism (we all eat gruel!), environmental policies that prioritize the snail darter over production of food for millions,  turning crops into fuel (who cares about the price of tortillas,eh?).  And this cap-n-tax...humans need heat to survive? Since when?  Oh, they will pay. Trust me.

Gosh.  Seems to me most of their policies are decidedly not in favor of human-type life.

73 Since we are talking about insanity:  "NAR Chief Blames Objective Appraisers For Keeping Home Sales Down"

74

So, 52%.  Obama's gonna fix things, huh?  Fix the economy?  Fix jobs?  Pay your mortgage?  Put gas in your cars?  Save your houses?  Etc, etc.  How's that working for you?  Hope you're happy now.

75 I am from Ohio.  I want nukes and I want then now!  That shoud lower my cap and trade taxes.. Dammit, where is a shovel reactor when you want one! 

76
Of all people to reconfigure the economy of the United States of America: Henry Waxman.

Dear God in heaven, giving that power to a corrupt, wardheeling nitwit: have we lost our fucking minds?

77 newsjunkie_ky

Hey there!

http://tinyurl.com/nkl5lc

78 70 Frankly, I can't see how this will benefit Democrats.

Here is how it will benefit Democrats.

1. Cap-and-tax passes.  Electricity bills go up.
2. Compliant MSM dutifully runs stories in the winter time about poor freezing Grandma who can't afford to pay her electricity bill.
3. Democrats rail against "big oil", "big electricity", etc., and demand that government "do something" to help Grandma.
4. Climate change panel meets again: guess what, it's worse than we thought!  Global warming is going to ravage the planet much sooner than everyone thought!
5. Given the combination, Obama has "no choice" but to nationalize the power companies, to force them to use green energy and to prevent Grandma from freezing.  After all, he's still cleaning up from Bush's mess.

79 "75 I am from Ohio.  I want nukes and I want then now!  That shoud lower my cap and trade taxes.. Dammit, where is a shovel reactor when you want one! 

Posted by: Mystry at June 23, 2009 09:47 PM (dIHlE)"

My friend, the engineer, recently told us that there are not enough engineers that know how to build a nuclear reactor for electricity so they are rolling a lot of them out of retirement, he said the same about space engineers.  When I challenged them he said there are not enough American engineering students and the foreign ones, who used to stay are now going back to their own countries where they can make a lot of money and are treated like gold. I was a little shocked to hear that.

80 Really, this entire affair comes straight from the pages of Atlas Shrugged.  The collapse of Western civilization.  All we need now is some Rearden Steel.

81 Seems to me that emissions from Washington, D.C. are the real problem...

82 chemjeff,

As part of my 12-step "stop being so damn cynical" plan, I can't believe that people are so blinded by reality and brainwashed that this wouldn't come around and bite Democrats in the ass...eventually, people are going to be fed up with the media and their endless cheerleading.  Hell, the NYT might not even be around to cheerlead when the effects of this bill are felt by voters.

83 The ideal world foe a liberal would be the one depicted in "Logan's Run".

84 #80

Ah, so right.   In the end, there will be only chaos!

And damn the person on MM's site that took my phrase!  You'll be hearing from Sony soon.

85 Not sure if this is old news but, seems like Obama sent the Mullahs a letter prior to the election and got mocked for it in the Ayatollahs speech. This is why he didn't want to speak strongly against them at the beginning.

Unbelievable

"Prior to this month's disputed presidential election in Iran, the Obama administration sent a letter to the country's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, calling for an improvement in relations, according to interviews and the leader himself. "

"On the one hand, they [the Obama administration] write a letter to us to express their respect for the Islamic Republic and for re-establishment of ties, and on the other hand they make these remarks. Which one of these remarks are we supposed to believe? Inside the country, their agents were activated. Vandalism started."


Obama - useful idiot

86 Earlier today I wrote that the President told an outright lie and failed Econ 101 when he claimed that only polluters would be paying the energy tax.

Easy fix. Have the EPA designate CO2 as a pollutant..

everyone who breaths will be paying the energy tax.. 

So he's mostly right.

87

Let us rename it the "Economic Collapse and Civil War Bill".

It fits since Barry thinks he's Abe Lincoln v.2.0. By the way, Barry, I hear "Our American Cousin" is playing down at Ford's Theatre. Why don't you fucking go there and watch it, bitch. Sit in the box with the bunting.

88 I got a reach around from Barry once!

89

Have the EPA designate CO2 as a pollutant..

everyone who breaths will be paying the energy tax.. 

Good grief, don't give him any more ideas.

90

Re: #77 loppyd,

LOVE IT!

91 I can't find a hard number, it's all comparitive numbers, but if 334 mil, is 3.3% then Indiana's projected 2009 revenue is about 10 billion, and the cap in trade is gonna cost indiana the equivalent of 10% of ti's internal tax revenue, (couldn't find good numbers for overall, but I didn't look very hard) so if we lose 3/4 a billion in GDP, what is that gonna add up to in tax revenue and what is that gonna do to the poor and rural area's in the city?

92 I'm sure China, India, Brazil, and South Africa will be glad to follow our example once we show them that we're willing to commit first. Right? Right? <crickets>

Why is it the left doesn't care about solving a problem, but as long as the solution gives them warm fuzzies( but nothing else) they're okay with it.

93 #86 another fix is just give him a Phd from MIT in Environmental Engineering.

OOOOOh! He's sooooo smart! Swoon!

94 Posted by: muffy at June 23, 2009 09:52 PM (zplc6)

I'm not surprised.  It all comes down to the public schools yet again.  I see a lot of kids entering the university who want to become engineers.  Lots of 'em.  If they all finished we'd be up to our eyeballs in engineers.  But they don't.  A few of them, it's because they think being an engineer means being able to retire at age 30, and they quickly learn that's not reality.  But a great many of them are earnest, and they are simply not well prepared.  They THINK they are well prepared, because they always got A's in their highschool classes, and then they wonder why they fail first semester calculus.  It is disheartening and disillusioning.  You can see that they have the analytical mind and an inkling of talent that could become an engineer some day, but there are only so many setbacks a person can take.  Plus, all of their business major friends are getting A's in their classes while they do nothing but play X-box all day.  It is no big surprise then that a large number of potential engineers go on and do something else.  Hence we have to import them from India and China.

95 Somebody stole your trademarked saying on another blog? That ain't cool.

(I'm looking at you, Methos.)

96 Look at how hard this is gonna hit America's breadbasket in general.

97

13 Almost makes me sorry to live in Texas--for a split second.

How dare you..

98 Can anyone explain how any state can "benefit" from taking a ton of money and shitting it right down the crapper? 

99 I can't believe that people are so blinded by reality and brainwashed that this wouldn't come around and bite Democrats in the ass.

You forget the narrative.  Democrats always have pure intentions.  It's those eeeeeeeeeeeevil corporations and those eeeeeeeeeeeeeevil Republicans who are always spoiling their grand plans for salvation.

100

A quick question for the folks in Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina, Indiana, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Colorado - you know, all the states that were Bush or close in 2004 and went for the Teleprompter Messiah this time around:

So, how's Barry's ass tasting these days?

 

You are forgetting that we will also pay for the electricity used by O voters in Ohio.  This map doesn't add in the extra fee that our utility comps are already adding to bills to pay for 'low income' people.  They are going to raise that fee in a month or so.  They will raise it again and again if this bill goes through.  Our gas coop. is sending announcements with every bill about how much hidden fees are in this thing.  Fees, not taxes.

 

PS  Im from Ohio and we aren't getting a nuclear power plant.  The tree huggers have all rushed to Columbus to make sure of that. 

101 97 Only a second!

102

Just FYI, the CBO does NOT, anywhere, estimate the costs of the equipment that must be installed to meet the proposed "Cap".

If you think that CBO's estimates even remotely reflect what the reality will be, you're fooling yourself.  CBO's "cost" estimates do not include ANY actual costs.

Everyone seems very concerned with the "Trade" part of the "Cap & Trade" legislation. My advice: don't worry about it -- the "Cap" will force a complete collapse of the U.S. economy.

103
It is not a question of how it helps Democrats.

Democrats think in terms of how much they can do without it hurting them. Right now, they are accountable to no one. With the press on their side providing propaganda and cover and with rigged elections, Democrats have little to fear at the ballot box.

Obama and the Democrats need to fuck up really really big for it to hurt them, unfortunately.

104 Indiana went Obama, but they still kept Mitch Daniels.

105 You forget the narrative.  Democrats always have pure intentions.  It's those eeeeeeeeeeeevil corporations and those eeeeeeeeeeeeeevil Republicans who are always spoiling their grand plans for salvation.

Yeah, but when that artfully crafted narrative is desperately played over and over like a broken record in a pathetic attempt to try and bolster support for destructive policies, it has to start getting stale.  Sooner or later.  Hopefully sooner, before it can do much damage. 

If not, I'll meet you at the Gulch.  I'll be the guy making cars.

106 #95

You don't wanna see what happens when I have a vendetta against somebody.  That bastard Helios found out the hard way.

107 Chemjeff, my friend said that the ones from India and China are going home because they see big dollar signs.  They can be a part of new startups in their own countries and have the potential to someday make huge money.  They feel there are not the same opportunities here.  Which is why my friend said that those guys are making more than him and honestly he is very pissed off about it.  He has a degree from MIT and some of these guys have gone through lesser programs.  Seriously my friends and I felt like we opened pandora's box with him the other night, like we had to talk him off the ledge.  He had been given a bad revue and his Indian co worker, a helluva nice guy, who does half as much, was given a glowing review by the same boss.  My friend was very upset, very upset and seriously, he had no recourse.  He is now concerned that he will lose his job. 

108 AndrewsDad,

I think the idea is that those there will be a market so that those who produce emissions will have to purchase the right to do so from those who don't produce emissions. The states that produce the emissions include Colorado, WV and Ohio (coal) and Texas and Oklahoma (oil) and they'll have to send a lot of money to whomever owns the credits. And many of those credits will belong to the net purchasers of energy because they won't need the credits for their own production.

Or something.

But in the end we'll all be paying more. Each and every one of us. But the people involved in the trading of the credits will reap a huge windfall. Until a bubble pops and.... Well, you get the point.

109 #59
So, how's Barry's ass tasting these days?

I live in PA...and still the state is infested with people who seem awfully fond of tossing presidential salads.  The ones that drive the SUV's, that still have fading Obama bumper stickers...those are my favorites.

The only plus I see is that New York will either have to start producing it's own electricity....or cut back, and I can't think of a nicer state that deserves it....outside of California, and/or Washington.

110 This is awful.  This is just fucking awful.

I was speaking the other day to a friend of mine.  He does research into atmospheric chemistry.  He has impeccable credentials - graduate of CalTech, trained with the nation's best.  He is about as apolitical as you can get.  I don't even know if he voted at all, let alone whom he voted for.  And he says the science behind climate change is "soft".  Which is his polite way of saying that it's "bullshit".  I even asked him straight-up if cap-and-trade was necessary.  He said unhesitatingly "no".

At times I'm embarrassed to be a scientist because I see how much of it has been hijacked by the political agenda pushers.  When Al Gore can say "the science is settled", he is actually partly right - to a large fraction of scientists, it IS settled - in their heads.  And because they have impressive degrees from big-name institutions we are supposed to just follow them mindlessly.

111 Yeah, but when that artfully crafted narrative is desperately played over and over like a broken record in a pathetic attempt to try and bolster support for destructive policies, it has to start getting stale.

Why?  It's worked for 70 years now.

112 "Everyone seems very concerned with the "Trade" part of the "Cap & Trade" legislation. My advice: don't worry about it -- the "Cap" will force a complete collapse of the U.S. economy." -- Eyas above @ 102


This is exactly correct. The CBO also does not do dynamic scoring to count the incredible number of legitimate business closings (and the attendant black market openings) that Cap & Trade will cause. I wouldn't doubt a 2 or 3 percent hit to GDP every year.* The costs to small business will be inordinately high, of course. So Democrats are once again the party of and for the powerful -- as they accrue more power to themselves.

*That will largely be offset by normal growth for a net of near zero.

113 The world is going nuts, peres hilton is just like any other angry gay male, no fun anymore, jon and Kate are getting a divorce and Al Gore is counting his money and thanking his lucky stars that GWB won.

114 Except in places like California (which incidentally emits the most greenhouse gases of any state), where folks will see a benefit.

And Waxman is a representative from.....guess where?

115 Muffy I'm real sorry about your friend.  Actually it may be a blessing in disguise if he gets laid off, because then maybe he can start his own business and he can make more money.

116 Stupid sockpuppet handle.

117 #79 Muffy. You are 100% Correct, Many years ago the local utility company was just about to open a nuke plant at a place called Moscow Ohio. 3 mile Island happened just before it was to open.  Never happened. they changed it to a coal plant at over a billion dollars. Stupid decision. There is almost 500 million dollars in Federal money now available to start Nuke plants right now. Didn't know about that did you?

118 chemjeff, we all encouraged him to think about teaching and maybe changing the world that way.  He was happy with that and my friend who is a job placement specialist is helping him polish up his resume.  The idea that he can guide his own destiny was kind of difficult for us to get across to him, you know the be pro active not reactive scenario but we think he realizes that is the best thing for him to do now.

119 And if the Republicans were merely playing politics with cap-and-screw tax, then they would shut up about it, because they know it's going to wreck the economy.  And they also know that a fucked up economy is the #1 thing that can bring Barry down.  So if they were just playing politics, they'd step aside and let the Democrats slit their own throats.  But I hope they don't, though, because this is too important.

120 chemjeff,

See my #112 above. Small businesses will get creamed by this Cap & Trade horse shit unless all they do is push paper. Making anything (which an engineer would likely have to do) will get ridiculously expensive.

121

Plus the CBO's numbers are screwy because:

CBO has estimated those amounts for the bill as it would be

implemented in 2020 (but shown in 2010 dollars).

The analysis does not include the effects of other aspects of the bill, such as federalefforts to speed the development of new technologies and to increase energyefficiency by specifying standards or subsidizing energy-saving investments.

The incidence of gains and losses would beconsiderably different once the free allocation of allowances had mostly ended.

 Although the analysis examines the effects of the bill as it would apply in 2020,those effects are described in the context of the current economy—that is, thecosts that would result if the policies set for 2020 were in effect in 2010.

122 Posted by: muffy at June 23, 2009 10:14 PM (zplc6)

Yeah, there's no rule that says you have to be unemployed before you start looking for your next job.  Actually does he have a master's or a Ph.D. in engineering?  If so, he can make some serious money as a professor.

123 muffy,

I'm likely to make a career change here shortly. Can you send me contact information for your job placement specialist friend?

If so, send any info to namedeblog @ gmail.com (remove spaces).

124 Posted by: momma at June 23, 2009 10:16 PM (penCf)

So basically: they have no idea.

125 he has his masters and his bachelor's from MIT.

126 Oh man this has me all worked up now.  I may just finish the case of beer tonight.

127 Why?  It's worked for 70 years now.

Well, I like to think that journalists used to have a bit more integrity in the past, but I can't argue with you about that on the academic front.  But the problem with all of these policies is that, to steal the environmentalists' word, are unsustainable. 

Look at Social Security—the only way it's worked for 70 years is because of the mortgages it constantly takes out upon unborn generations (not to mention my generation, which will receive no benefits despite paying into the system).  But it'll be bankrupt soon, and there's not a thing anyone can do about it.  The same goes for all the unfunded liabilities that could be absorbed, temporarily, but the massive economic growth we've been fortunate enough to have experienced over the past fifty years. 

Sure, these programs can work, even for several generations.  Clever schemes like withholding can even mask their effects on an individual's wallet and keep the masses in the dark about just how much is confiscated and redistributed.  But when the economic engine slows down—or is starved of fuel, as cap and trade will do—the dire consequences of reckless spending that may have been protected by useful idiots in college classrooms or cheered on by a lapdog media will be impossible to ignore.

128 Waxman is such a jackass.

129 125 he has his masters and his bachelor's from MIT.

There are a lot of mid-sized universities that have engineering programs, that are always having problems finding engineering professors because they are in such high demand elsewhere (as you point out).  In fact a lot of them will simply waive the Ph.D. requirement altogether if the person is willing to work there.  Now he probably won't make 6 figures working as a university professor, but he'll be in education, he won't have to put up with all the social drama that goes along with highschool, and he'll still be doing engineering.  Just a thought.

130

For the CBO to make sure that it added into its analysis that it is shown in 2010 dollars, proves that mass, mass inflation  is coming our way.  They know that ten bucks in 2010 will mean 30/40 bucks in 2020, right?

When they say this  in the context of the current economy isn't it their way of saying that this will tank our economy by 2020?

131 When an engineering student stands up and says "I was told there would be no math" relax and enjoy the End of Days.

132 Look at Social Security—the only way it's worked for 70 years is because of the mortgages it constantly takes out upon unborn generations (not to mention my generation, which will receive no benefits despite paying into the system).  But it'll be bankrupt soon, and there's not a thing anyone can do about it.  The same goes for all the unfunded liabilities that could be absorbed, temporarily, but the massive economic growth we've been fortunate enough to have experienced over the past fifty years.

If things keep going the way they are, SS won't ever go bankrupt.  Here's why.  The government can always borrow more money to prop up SS.  Sure lenders may be a touch nervous now what with the out-of-control debt, but even now they are still lending.  And if they aren't willing to cut us off now, when would they?  Never.  Long-term, though, lenders loan us money because there is a strong expectation that the government will repay the loans.  They will repay the loans via tax money that is generated off of our hard work.  It's OUR sweat and tears, from the hardworking, strong work ethic conservatives, that prop up socialist Ponzi schemes like SS forever.

The only way SS will ever truly go bankrupt is if there is an Atlas Shrugged moment.  Otherwise we will just continue to feed the beast.

133 O/T

Deadline Hollywood sells for $15 mil, and the person who sold it will get a salary.

By CRIMINY!!!!   (btw, Deadline Hollywood is a fascinatingly addictive blog,)  First time I read it, I was like "boring" and would check in every once in a while, just if there was something I was interested in learning about, then stuff started happening on the business side, that I decided to go back to learn about what is going on, (yeah, it was "The Watchmen," can you blame me?)  And I didn't know what the hell she was saying, so I started just clicking through, and she covers some seriously heavy crap that happens in the background in terms of business. 

My opinion good for her, rock on.

134

this sucks.

 

i live in pennsylvania and work in the steel industry. if you look at the dollar numbers here you will see PA, Ohio, West Virginia, Indiana, and Michigan will suffer.   this will destroy what is left of the "rust belt" and finish off the cities and states that built this country. We get your coal, we make your power, we make your steel, your cars, your metals, your chemicals and this is how you repay us. Let's just send every frigging industrial job to china and india. And i am no nativist, if we lose jobs in the free market fine, but if we lose jobs because of government regulation i am not fine with that. I really think our government is going to destroy our country. Our money is going to be worthless, we won't produce anything, we are going the war of spain, england, france. 

135 The only way SS will ever truly go bankrupt is if there is an Atlas Shrugged moment.

Eventually we aren't even going to be able to pay the interest on those loans.  That's when that moment will arrive.  At this rate, it's going to happen sooner or later.

136 Nukes have always been a big business for almost all nations that can afford them. The US because of its anti-nuke whacko's is way behind the curve. BHO is not saying anything for fear of upsetting his Liberal friends, has quietly put in place a nuke program to catch up. 

137 Muffy@79

Absolutely, I have had entry level job reqs (engineering/science) open for months and I have received exactly <i>none</i> resumes from qualifed US citizens (job may require a clearance).  I got buried with good resumes from India, Pakistan, etc.

If I got a resume from a US citizen who didn't think Nyquist was a sports drink and could spell microcontroller, he or she would get an interview.

138

his comment about the polluters paying for this has to be the single most blatantly deceitful comment ever by a president.

139 Nyquist is a high performance athletic re-hydrating beverage.  Gatorade is a sports drink.  /sniff

140 Wow Jean that is so sad and really speaks to the state of things.

141 This BS is bad enough by itself, but... Why are these idiots pushing this, NOW, when unemployment is going through the roof and people are struggling to make ends meet as it is?

"The breakthrough came hours after President Obama at a news conference called on the House to pass the legislation, and a new EPA analysis showed that it would raise household energy costs on average only an extra $80 to $111 a year."

142 79,

Heh, muffy my friend just graduated with his Mech Engineering degree, he got a scholarship by default. Not enough minorties signed up, not enough women, not enough poor, so the Marine white boy gets it by default.

143 What happened to Obama's pledge of no new taxes on anyone earning under $250,000?

(Don't answer that).

Sorry for stating the incredibly obvious, but all this CO2 Cap nonsense is just a transparent excuse to raise everyone's taxes.

144 Jean@137 Too bad you don't have an opening that requires liberal arts or gay, lesbian, and transsexual studies.

You'd be covered up with resumes from the good ole US of A

145 Too bad that Barry's Socialism 101 course didn't include any economic theory other than:
1) the rich can afford to pay higher taxes
2) manufacturing companies can afford to pay higher taxes
3) higher taxes don't increase unemployment
4) higher taxes are never passed on to anyone else
5) no one moves from a high tax to low tax area or country
6) everyone else gets a 'free' ride

146 a new EPA analysis showed that it would raise household energy costs on average only an extra $80 to $111 a year.

It will be more than that for me each month. Pennsylvania Legislature decided that this is a great time to deregulate utilities. Electricity and nat. gas are expected to rise by 40% in December.

That deregulation, coupled with the Waxman/Obama Crap & Tirade bill will have me sitting in the dark freezing my ass off next winter.

Thanks 52%!!!

147 This is the Enron wet dream.  Whay aren't the opponents in DC hammering away on that?  There's a great blog post in that connection, I'm pretty sure.

148 I still can't get over how much the breadbasket is projected to pay.  We are being punished for not having a desert, or a freakisly convenient waterfall nearby.

Maybe he wants to make the greatplains an inland dirt desert all over again, just like in the 30's.

149 Bigger government, bigger corruption.

"Let's give them the change they need."

Welcome to the age of Obama.

150 AES - It's insane, the bosses read 10% unemployment, then I show them who is applying and I get shit on for asking to much (a hard science degree and experience writing micro-controller code and managing sensor data - and the hard part a clearable US citizen).

We are having a board meeting just to change procedures and lower job descriptions. 

151 Let's read between the lines, the real breakthru was getting the EPA to release some BS number the spineless politicians could use as political cover. 

Anyone ask why the EPA released that number instead of the Departments of Energy or Commerce.  What expertise and datasets does the EPA have to conduct such a wide reaching analysis of energy consumption and cost?  They are the proponent of this bullshit and they are the goto reference on costs; did the media let the fox in the hen house.  Where is the "trickle down" analysis of food and transportation costs?

152

More fun: next week Obama is meeting with illegal alien advocates and will undoubtedly promise citizeship; and we already know about the free healthcare he's giving them. DC says we have 40 million uninsured, we have 30 million illegals. How convenient. Why, they just may vote democrat being bought off with free healthcare and citizenship given to them by the Fuehrer, at least that's what the democrats are banking on. He'll also promise access to social security for Mexican foreign nationals, all paid for by the stupid gringo. We'll even mail the check directly to Mexico.

In sane countries they refer to such politicians as traitors and execute them.

153 Jean@151 Exactly.

WTF happened to questioning government on real issues during the nightly damn network news programs?

154 Mmmmmm!! I'd let Barney Frank tap and trade my butt with all his friends!

Oh... CAP and trade.

That doesn't sound like as much fun.

155

"General Electric, a top 20 source of funds for Obama in 2008,, and owner of the Obama-friendly MSNBC, already has strong ties to Democrats, but the company has bolstered that relationship, according to recently filed federal lobbying registrations. GE's transportation business has hired as a lobbyist Linda Hall Daschle, wife of Tom Daschle, the former Senate Democratic Leader and Obama's first pick to head the Department of Health and Human Services."

156 153 Jean@151 Exactly.

WTF happened to questioning government on real issues during the nightly damn network news programs?

Posted by: AES at June 23, 2009 11:47 PM (dkcp2)

I'm increasingly convinced it never happened, so long as the agenda was popular or profitable. We're just unaware of the shenannigans that went on then as well. As far as I'm concerned, every hero and villain in history deserves a reconsideration based on the way we know images are manpiluated and distorted today.

157 Prepare to pay your alms for the new pinko religion. Seperation of church and state my ass.

158 Did you guys know that I got banned from Patterico's?

I did! So here I am!!! Hi! Booosh! Boooosh!

Wingers! Boosh! WIngers! Boosh! Redneck wingers!!!

159 What happened to Obama's pledge of no new taxes on anyone earning under $250,000?

The expiration date on that promise ran out months ago.

160 141 (AES) said "This BS is bad enough by itself, but... Why are these idiots pushing this, NOW, when unemployment is going through the roof and people are struggling to make ends meet as it is?"

Simple. Because they can. They have to push through every irreversible change they can make before the midterms warm up. The Obamedia needs a little time to form false narratives and bury facts to mitigate Democrat losses. Nevertheless, they know that after the election they may not have such an overwhelming majority. That's why Obama and the Dem Congress seem immune to the realities of the economy and are just barrreling onwards with their agendas. They don't care. They want to make fundamental changes to the country that can't be reversed short of a civil war or revolution and they aint slowing down for nothing.

161

(AES) said "This BS is bad enough by itself, but... Why are these idiots pushing this, NOW, when unemployment is going through the roof and people are struggling to make ends meet as it is?"

 

They are pushing this shit now because it is part of the Communist agenda. The AGW scam has never been about “saving the planet” except for a few crackpots who worship Gaia in the neo-pagan concepts.  The overwhelming majority, including the U.N. scheme is nothing more than another redistribution of wealth scheme.  Judging by Il Dueche’s and the Commiecrats actions since they took over they really do not give a shit about what happens to the average working man. This bill provides “energy subsidies” for their voters and screws the rest of us. Even as the mority of Americans are against this they will steam full speed ahead.

 

Everything about this scam has been shown to be a fraud including at least 3 cases of government entities falsifying data in order to promote their way. The real sceintific data, including temperature trends for the last DECADE show that CO2 has very little, if any impact on temperature, and fluctuations in the sun are the major cause of temperature fluctuations. In fact, we have been cooling for the past 10 years. But the politicians like pig-face Waxman can not hear that.

 

Does anyone have an analysis of this bill that shows why CA gets a positive while most of the rest of the country gets negative? CA does not have that much hydro and relies heavily on Gas Turbine.

 

Also, one wonders if this calculation takes into account the amount of electricity usage in given areas in additon to the generation mix. In the South we use a LOT of electricity for heating and cooling whereas in the North they may use fuel oil for heating but have no requirements for A/C in the Summer.

 

In additon, how did they balance hydrocarbon use vs electiricy?  There are a lot of questions about this rip off that I would like to see answered and I would rather not down load the bill and puzzle through it myself. It has been my experience that the assholes in congress try to hide as much as possible when writing these things and it makes it hard to figure it all out.

 

162

BTW, the reason I ask about the regional variations on use is they claim a cost of $96.67 for SC and yet say that the average utility bill will go up by 90%. My gas and electric bill total for 2008 was $1802. With a 90% increase that would go to $3420.80 (or an increase of $1621. I have a relatively new high efficiency heat pump and a modest size house of roughly 1600 sq ft. In addition, my current rate of 7.1 cents/kw is amoung the lowest in the country.

 

So where do they come up with this $97 bullshit?

 

Also, we need to keep in mind that these costs are ONLY utiltity costs and not the overall costs frm all manufactorers and buisnesses that WILL be passed on to the consumer.

163

One other aspect that I predicted with this AGW scam is also coming true with Pig-Face Waxman. Long ago I predicted that not only would this be simply another huge tax by creating a market for “carbon” permits out of thin air, but it would also be an influence peddling scam in which congress could reward favored groups. Already the “farm” lobby is being given great leeway. I’m sure that if the unions start squawking they will get their little piece of the action as well.

 

What really gets me is how Americans can be so stupid as to buy into this shit.

164 Isn't Alabama a poor state? In a word, no. I think the reason for the rather high cost to the state has more to do with a Republican Governor, and both U.S. senators are Republican. The last time Alabama voted for a Dem. for President was Carter the first time he ran. Waxman is an asshole.

165 Republic of Texas, baby!

I think that the government needs to bring on more and more of this shit, and do it faster.

Clean sheet and a fresh start. I figure the ROT looks just about like the red states on that map at the top of the page. Probably leaves out some of those iccky liberal states in the upper right, and definitely leaves out Hawaii and it's uber liberal policies.

166 On page 196 of the bill they specify the acceptable wattage for all lamps, everything from chandelier candelabra to work lights.  If you need higher wattage (like, oh maybe, for SURGERY) you have to petition the Secretary of Energy for an exemption.

I am still going through the bill, but that is the first thing that I found that will cause a giant headache to every American.

167

On page 196 of the bill they specify the acceptable wattage for all lamps, everything from chandelier candelabra to work lights

 

WOW; I guess I do need to download this bill. The above is not “cap and trade”, it is outright Fascism.

168 It's hard to find normal light bulbs anywhere.  Actually know people who are hoarding them, enough for years.  One person is saying you need an environmental clean up crew to come in should you break one.  Sure, it is a joke but they then show you the back of the box versus the back of the box of the old fashioned light bulb and the difference in "instructions" is obvious.

169 #109 -- So do I -- and sadly, the bloom is not off the rose for a bunch of these idiots. I have to admit that every damn time I see an Obama sticker, it fills me with nauseated rage.

170 On page 196 of the bill they specify the acceptable wattage for all lamps, everything from chandelier candelabra to work lights

What happened to "keep the government out of my bedroom"?  (I read there, I need more than 35 W to see print).

171 1. Cap-and-tax passes.  Electricity bills go up.
2. Compliant MSM dutifully runs stories in the winter time about poor freezing Grandma who can't afford to pay her electricity bill.
3. Democrats rail against "big oil", "big electricity", etc., and demand that government "do something" to help Grandma.
4. Climate change panel meets again: guess what, it's worse than we thought!  Global warming is going to ravage the planet much sooner than everyone thought!
5. Given the combination, Obama has "no choice" but to nationalize the power companies, to force them to use green energy and to prevent Grandma from freezing.  After all, he's still cleaning up from Bush's mess.

This would be much funnier if it wasn't prophecy.

172 What happened to "keep the government out of my bedroom"?

Try one of these Obamisms as an explanation:

"I won."

or

"I'm the President of the United States."

or

"Spread the wealth around."

or

"You ain't seen nothing yet."

or

"We are the change we've been waiting for."

173 Muffy. You are 100% Correct, Many years ago the local utility company was just about to open a nuke plant at a place called Moscow Ohio. 3 mile Island happened just before it was to open.  Never happened. they changed it to a coal plant at over a billion dollars. Stupid decision.

I grew up near that plant; one of my brothers worked there for a while. The real capper on that story is that they had to buy up hundreds of acres of wooded hills to serve as ash-pits for the coal plant.

174 There is more to it than the electicity calculations.  Petroleum refineries get no credit rebates (or whatever they call them) and will therefore pass along the tax to the purchasers of gasoline.  An extra buck or two per gallon will push more folks into the Gubmint Motors Volt.  The big oil companys will decide there is no profit in refining so they'll decide to make their money from production, driving the independent refiners out of the market.  Did I say a buck or two?  Better plan on three or four.

175 Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. - HL Mencken

176

Every step in the supply chain will increase the cost of EVERYTHING you consume if\when this goes through...

Example:

Chicken will cost farmer an extra 10% to raise. He raises price accordingly.

Transport chicken to processing plant - +10%. Price for transport rises accordingly.

Processing chicken - +10% . Price for processing rises accordingly.

Transport chicken to supermarket - +10%. Price for transport rises accordingly.

Supermarket operating costs - +10% . All prices rise accordingly.

The 10% number is made up, but you get the point. Sure, your electric\NG bill may go up only 10%... but EVERYTHING you buy will go up 30%-50%, because energy prices affect everyone\ everything along the supply chain. It's unavoidable.

Businesses do NOT pay taxes... and will not pay for cap-and-tax.

YOU WILL!

In reality, it's worse then the example above. That 10% is just electric\NG. Feed\fuel\paper\repairs will ALL cost more because of higher electric\NG prices. We saw a hint of how all prices rise when energy prices do when gas\diesel shot up to $4+\gal. last year... this will be MUCH worse.

And all this BEFORE hyperinflation kicks in because of Porkulus\TARP\The Won's budget...

This really does have the potential to colapse our ecomony if it goes through. Even more so considering the how bad the economy is right now. Talk about the worst time to implement something like this...

Start buying food\fuel now people... and if you are planning to make your house more energy efficient, do it now while it's still somewhat affordable. Better safe than sorry... or starving and freezing as the case has the potential of being.

You've been warned.

177 The map is a bit misleading.

It shows where the tax is applied, not where the tax is passed along to the consumer.

You folks in CA and NY will be paying too.

178

Presidential nominee Obama stated that his cap and trade plan would bankrupt the Coal industry.  At least he's wasn't lying this time.

The US produces some 6 Billion metric tons of CO2 per year. About 4 Billion of this amount comes from fossil fuel energy generation -- mostly coal.The DoE estimates the COST of Carbon Sequestration at between $100 to $300 per ton. Thus, 4 Billion tons @ $200 per ton = $800,000,000,000 to eliminate/sequester the CO2 from Coal plants. The total Revenue of the entire Coal Industry is roughly $330,000,000 per year.

Notice that the total revenue of the entire industry is an entire ORDER OF MAGNITUDE smaller than the amount required to sequester the CO2 from Coal burning. Coal plants provide 50% of our nation's electricity.

The sequestration costs will also essentially eliminate the production of electricity from other fossil fuels (mostly Natural Gas) -- an additional 23% of our electricity production. Thus, Cap & Trade will more or less eliminate 73% of the electricity sources in this country.

At best, this will increase electricity costs by a factor of 4 or 5.  That is, YOUR monthly electric bill will, at least, quadruple in price. The current average monthly residential electric bill across the U.S. is $73 per month.  Under Cap & Trade the average residential electricity bill will be around $300 per month.

Now, you may say, "Okay, that's a big increase; but it's not so much that I can't pay it (for the worthy cause of SAVING THE PLANET)."

But, imagine you are a business owner in some industry that actually uses electricity (try to name one that doesn't).  Imagine that you are, say, the FOOD production industry - which pays roughly $4 Million per year for electricity.  Then, imagine that you suddenly are paying at least $16 Million per year for electricity. Or, you could be the chemical industry -- which pays about $6.5 Million per year for electricity.  Now you're suddenly paying $26 Million per year.

What happens to the price of your product?  Let's say that, currently, 10% of the price of your product reflects your electricity costs.  Under Cap & Trade, your electricity costs will be soon be reflected as 40% of the price of your product.  The widgets that you sell just went from $1 per widget to $1.30 per widget overnight. --  conservatively estimated.

This massive increase in price happens to ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING produced in this country.  And, not just retail stuff. Not only do your costs increase for electricity, so do your costs of buying ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING ELSE. Your electricity costs quadruple, but the cost of ALL of your raw materials increases as well.  You pay much more to make your widgets AND you also pay much more for the plastic that your widgets are made of, as well as for the cement & steel that your building is made of, the plumbing, the wiring, the tile floor, the doors, the windows, your car, your clothes, your food, and ... oh, by the way, the massive increases in salaries that ALL of your employees need as a cost-of-living increase to be able to afford their own electric bills. Each increased cost, in addition to all of your other costs, has a multiplicative effect on the price that you must charge for your products, just to stay in business

179 This will bury the Democrats. All the less informed Americans will know is that their bills are going up....drastically. Couple that with the flatlined economy, unemployment and the rise in costs for nearly everything we do and buy will be the perfect storm come 2010. Even the state run media will not be able to sweet talk all this bullshit.

The dems are going DOWN.

180 Eyas & theBman.

I appreciate your input here -- the numbers look pretty staggering.

And I apologize ahead of time if this is all your own work.

But that looks like a lot of cut & pasted data & wording. If so, I'd appreciate if you'd refer to the original source material.

If it's all your own words and figures, then please source how you derive your numbers.

We are on the same side of the issue, and I apologize ahead of time if my suspicions are unfounded, but this feels like spam. The last thing I want to do is start debating this with people starting out misinformed.

181

You should always question Krakatoa... and believe it or not, i did'nt do one bit of cut and paste.

I stated that my numbers are made up... the numbers in my example are irrelevent.

My example is a statement of economics 101. The cost of a thing is directly and largely related to the cost of production and the supply chain. 

If I sell you "teh stuff®" for $1 and it costs me $0.75 to make and ship to you, I make a profit of $0.25. If suddenly my cost of doing business goes up $0.30 because, say, the energy to make "teh stuff®" goes up $0.10, the plasic to make "teh stuff®" goes up $0.10 (because it now costs my supplier more to produce the plastic), and shipping the plastic to me and "teh stuff®" to you costs $0.10 more, I can no longer sell you "teh stuff®" for $1; unless my plan is to take the fast train to OutOfBusinessVille.

I have no choise but to sell you "teh stuff®"  for $1.50, because a $0.25 profit does'nt buy as much as it used to... 

See, if just the rent on my warehouse went up, I would probably only have to increase the price to $1.10. But since energy is used in every single step in the supply chain, it has a cumulative effect.

182 Same Newt did that global warming spot with Pelosi, right?

Fuck that old hack.

183

Obama is trying to centralize all power in himself.   Once they do this to energy what is the next step towards Marxism.

 

And the GOP chirps.

184 #109 -- They're not going to cut back. That's why Bari al-Taqqiyah is pushing the smart grid, so CA and NY can loot the nation's energy from generating states.

185 Thanks Bman. I misread, and thought you were using actual estimates.

Agreed, that it's never too early to work on ways to protect yourself from impacts to the grid. Prepare for the worst (to the best of ones ability) and hope for the best.

I gotta say however, I'm enjoying the brass balls on our president. My pre-election prediction was that a Dem president and Legislature would not be able to help itself, would descend into an orgy of taxing & spending & regulating, the likes of which would introduce a couple generations long brainwashed by the Education system & the Media into believing that Liberalism has the answer to all our woes.

And God love him, Obama is fulfilling that prediction in spades.

I think the firmaments are beginning to tremble, which is why Obama has spent such an unprecedented amount of time (in contemporary terms) hawking his wares to the public.

When unemployment hits double-digits; when next tax-day hits and people realize Obama's tax "cut" was merely tax deferred; when it sinks in that the drastic increase in the every-day costs of living are not a bug, but a feature of Obamanomics, I suspect that not only the notoriously uninformed "independent" American voter, but quite a few lifetime (D) voters will pull the polling booth lever with their check-writing hand.

186

No problem...

What Eyas said below is worth repeating... because it can't be said loud or often enough:

"This massive increase in price happens to ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING produced in this country.  And, not just retail stuff. Not only do your costs increase for electricity, so do your costs of buying ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING ELSE. Your electricity costs quadruple, but the cost of ALL of your raw materials increases as well.  You pay much more to make your widgets AND you also pay much more for the plastic that your widgets are made of, as well as for the cement & steel that your building is made of, the plumbing, the wiring, the tile floor, the doors, the windows, your car, your clothes, your food, and ... oh, by the way, the massive increases in salaries that ALL of your employees need as a cost-of-living increase to be able to afford their own electric bills. Each increased cost, in addition to all of your other costs, has a multiplicative effect on the price that you must charge for your products, just to stay in business"

Truely freightening...

"Agreed, that it's never too early to work on ways to protect yourself from impacts to the grid. Prepare for the worst (to the best of ones ability) and hope for the best."

I look at it this way...If nothing comes of this and cap-and-tax does'nt pass, I've beat a small part of inflation by buying food at pre-inflation prices (you'd be amazed at how much you eat in a year and how long the shelf life is on most foods), and my power bill will go DOWN by a large percent by installing new windows\doors\insulation.(I live in an older house.) Granted, I can't do every window and door in 1 shot; but every one I replace helps my electric\NG bill...

---

Yea, it's going to be great watching heads explode when people realize that the "tax cut" was really just a "withholding cut" for most people...

187 Don't forget all the businesses that will just say "screw this--I'm outta here" and move more ops offshore. We could find ourselves longing for the good old days of 9% unemployment.

188

Krakatoa,

Sorry, I got off-line right after I posted that last night.

What I posted was cut-and-pasted.  But from something I had put together to post on another site, at about the time that the audio of then-candidate Obama came out saying that he would bankrupt the coal industry. 

I thought that it was rather long anyway, so I left out some of the caveats & source cites that I had originally had in it (I also had had a few estimates about wind-power, but left that out too) It's not anything that I would take to present to Congress or anything; just some "back-of-envelope" calculations based on what I could gather from respectable (mostly ".gov") sources in about a half hour on the internet.

Most questionable of what I posted (then & now) is the claim that this will immediately wipe out the electricity generating industry.   Probably not -- at least, not overnight.  It depends on what the "cap" will be; will there be a phase-in of ever more stringent "caps"; what the cost of tradeable credits will be compared to installing carbon sequestration equipment; whether sequestration technology allows plants to sequester whatever percentage of their CO2 emissions they want, and at what cost; etc, etc, etc.

CBO, on the other hand, assumes that all of the reductions in CO2 will come from lower demand because of increased price.  As if this isn't putting the effect before the cause. And as if essentials like electricity are perfectly price-elastic, right down to zero demand.  And, as if zero demand for electricity by industry "X" isn't exactly the same as saying "the complete, immediate, shut-down of industry "X".  It's insane.

What I really wanted to get across was the part that theBMan quoted.  That the presumably massive increase in energy costs is multiplicative at every stage in the production chain.

 

P.S. What will happen to the cement manufacturing industry? (the second biggest industrial emitter of CO2) There is no sequestration technology for cement manufacture (as far as I know).  So, they'll simply be shut down by the "cap", or have their product become so cost-prohibitive by virtue of "trade" that cement becomes un-buyable.  People who like to keep track of things like "Housing Starts" can quit doing so, there won't be any "Housing Starts" anymore. 

At least, not until a substitute for cement comes around ... can you build a home's foundation with unicorn farts?

 

189

Krakatoa,

From my prior post, the following are facts:
A) The US produces some 6 Billion metric tons of CO2 per year.
B) 4 Billion of this amount comes from fossil fuel energy generation
C) DoE estimates the cost of Carbon Sequestration at between $100 to $300 per ton.
D) total Revenue of the Coal Industry is $330,000,000 per year.
E) Coal plants provide 50% of our nation's electricity.
F) electricity from other fossil fuels (mostly Natural Gas) -- an additional 23% of our electricity production.
G) current average monthly residential electric bill across the U.S. is $73 per month. 
H) the FOOD production industry pays roughly $4 Million per year for electricity.
I) the chemical industry which pays about $6.5 Million per year for electricity. 

I can go back & find the exact url where I got these if you want, but a google search should give you most of them

(except the DoE estimate of sequestration cost, which I found somewhere on the DoE.gov website - I can try to find

it if you want).

I really only had one estimate: "this would increase electricity costs by a factor of 4 or 5."
For argument's sake, I just assumed one-quarter of the electricity generators (the non-fossil-fuel generators) being forced to produce all of the nation's electricity; increasing cost by four (4) times.  I know that this is preposterous for several reasons.  Not least of which is Cap & Trade will not (I guess???) eliminate fossil-fuel electricity production overnight.  It's a hypothetical estimate IF fossil-fuel produced electricity were eliminated - which I gather is the ultimate goal of the legislation.

The rest of the calculations were just multiplying some facts (above) by this factor of four.

In the original post I wrote (which I cut & pasted from), I had a caveat not to rely on my numbers as a source themselves.  I put it together to give a quick, general idea of possible impact of Cap & Trade, using some real numbers just for perspective. Again, it's not meant to be relied upon.  Just meant to give some idea of potential ultimate consequences, given that there's nothing to replace fossil-fuel electricity generation -- regardless whether they're put out of business overnight or over time.

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I can see a lot of politicians having their asses handed to them if they have the gall to pass this travesty.

 

The Dems have pissed in their beds worse than the Repubs did.

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