1 The economy is collapsing, the Norks are getting ready to throw a missile at Pearl Harbor, revolution in Iran, and this is what the MSM thinks is important.

2 When else do we discriminate on the basis of not what a person is or does, but what others think of it?

You mean other than always? Well, besides always, never.

3 Philly news has yet to report the bomb that was detonated (by the bomb squad) at the 34th st subway about an hour ago.

The "era of fear" is over now mostly because the MSM won't report anything to hurt the 0ne.

4

John Shalikashvili:

"He was an advisor to John Kerry's 2004 Presidential campaign. He is now a visiting professor at the Center for International Security and Cooperation at Stanford University."

5 It all seemed to work out for that Private Piles guy, what's the worse that could happen. /snark

Actually, I do agree, who cares about orientation any more, this was all based upon the old bugaboo that if you have a gay soldier he might somehow try to convert his fellow soldiers, or try to gay them up.

Personally, I come from the Homer Simpson school of thought, "I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals FLAMING ..."

6 We want people in the military who identify as being soldiers first, not those who identify as being homosexual first.  If they want to serve, DADT allows those who put their country first the chance to serve, and keeps out those that think being out of the closet is the most important thing in life.

7 So, the fact that DADT has 'worked,' means that it should be ended.

oooookay.

8

The on-base homo pride parade should be wonderful to behold.

9 I'm a classical liberal, I guess--a Libertarian.  A *true* conservative, in other words.  I don't care who you screw.  I'd rather not even hear about it.  So, I agree with Barry.  Who gives a shit.  Just shoot straight. 

10

No, it also matters how soldiers work together in a unit.

Sexual politics has no place in a fighting force.

11 I think it's time for it to go away.  The only issue I can see is during the basic training.  I'm  not sure how many 18yr old males would feel comfortable showering with an openly gay soldier.  I think that just might be asking for trouble.

12 Didn't he write this a long time ago?  I thought he had a stroke.

13 BTW, The fact that I'm in agreement with Gen. Shalikashvili doesn't change the fact that he is a moron.

14

I'm not really passionate about this, one way or another.  I'm more unsettled by women in combat.  And yes, that is partly based on what "others" (our enemies) think of it.  I just am not crazy about more of our fine ladyfolk exposed to capture by rape-victim stoners.

Flame away!

15

The usual bumf, accompanied by the usual hooey about how "homosexuals are already serving in the military and always have been."

Okay, then name one who's serving in the military.  Right now.

Oh, you don't really know any?  I didn't think so. If you did know one, of course, your oath to defend the Constitution and obey the orders of your superiors would mean you'd have to turn him in, wouldn't it.

Now go clean your weapon.

16 Freakin' figures...as soon as I posted, a 200+ comment thread went dead.  Maybe this has been discussed around here, but I haven't seen it, so I'll repost—sorry if this is a huge annoyance. 

Majorly off-topic here, but the "public comments" period for the EPA's decision to regulate greenhouse gas emissions under the Clean Air Act is drawing to a close. 

I'm not sure how much of an impact comments will have on the decision, but they are required to read, and publish, them all.  You can find a form letter template here, and more information about what to write here.  Hopefully those work. 

Anyway, this is kind of a big deal, and you've got until the 23rd to make a comment.  Again, who knows how much good it will do—but a deluge of comments against regulation, which will be publicly available, will be hard to ignore even if the EPA decides to move forward.

17

Oh, I sped read.  I thought they were talking about quizzing people and eliminating them based on orientation. 

Like I said, I'd rather not hear about it.

18

No thanks. I served in the army. Last thing I want to have to worry about is bending over in the shower to pick up a bar of soap.

19 Or you know, we could not play a game of "let's see what happens" in the middle of two wars.

Just a thought.

20

Hey I really don't give a shit about this ghey shit.

It's friday and tonight is one of the best hobo hunting nights, no moon.  I know baiting is illegal, but shit so is HH.  Here is a link to the best hobo bait.

http://www.bumwine.com/

I am surprised, vlau rite wasn't listed.

Kemp

21

he is a moron.

Hey, I hardly ever post here. 

22 Does the army have separate showers for women?  How about sleeping quarters?  If so, why?

I'm not necessarily going anywhere with this.  For the moment I'm just curious.

23

Sorry, but I dont want the US Army to turn into Disney World during Gay Pride Day. DADT helps keep blatant faggotry out of sight, at least for the most part. It does not prevent Homosexuals from serving in the military, but it does let them know public shows are frowned on. Left without stigma, and you will get a San Franciso Folsom Street Fair.

By the way, that link is not safe for work, and not something you will want your kids to see.

My Father was a drill instructor in the '50's, and he told me hardly a month went by when he didn't escort someone off post for homosexuality. No DADT back then, just a quick trip to the gate, and out of the service.

24 I agree, they should ask and refuse gay recruits.

25 Fuck you Drew. There's no better time for a massive personnel shakeup that might have  than during the middle of two wars.  /sarc

Personally, my favorite time to play let's see what happens is during a wedding or church.

26 I have a serious question I would like someone to answer.

 We separate accommodations for men and women who serve together, whether in the same platoon, unit, ship, etc.  We do this for reasons of privacy and sexual tension.

If a man or woman is actively gay, who do they "bunk" with.  If we won't have a man sleep in the same hooch with a woman for the above reasons, does that woman retain the same rights when it comes to rooming her with a lesbian counterpart?

Where do you put the lesbian then?  Room them with a man?  I hardly think people would find that acceptable? Other lesbians?  Same situation applies to men. 

27 Hey Gabe, move into a squad bay and live there for a couple months with about 60 other guys.  See if you get off on one guy butt-fucking another or giving a blow job in the rack right next to yours.

Why did the good general wait until now?  Sorta like Al Gore's concern for cap and trade.......was nonexistent when he was VP.

28 1 The economy is collapsing, the Norks are getting ready to throw a missile at Pearl Harbor, revolution in Iran, and this is what the MSM thinks is important.

Exactly what I was going to say.

Another distraction to keep our mind of the real problems of the world.

29 Sam - These are the questions that people like Gabe can't even begin to think of because their experience with line units is nil.

It is my experience that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue" works. . . in the real world. . . where it counts.

30 #11 Posted by: Tokin42 at June 19, 2009 01:23 PM (ONkRu) - got news for ya. When I was serving you showered with everyone the whole time you were in, right after morning PT and right before breakfast.

31
Was shalikashvili the dumbass who ordered everyone into berets instead of BDU caps?  Or was that shinseki?  Either way, this guy is dipshit and worrying about this is a waste of time.

32

DADT is there so that they don't have to deal with the drama that comes with having openly gay people on board (see any college campus for examples). Will we have transgendereds wanting to be berthed with the females? The gays wanting separate bethings? Have to have gay appreciation and pride days?

 

Females know that we aren't looked at the same as one of the guys. Actually you had two choices, you could ignore all of the woman jokes, do your job and be treated as one of the guys, or you could be cute and flirty, make all of the guys uncomfortable about telling those jokes, and be treated as a Girl.

 

Why anybody want's to invite jokes and so forth on themselves makes no sense to me.

33 My take is that if it's really not disruptive to a unit to have openly gay soldiers, why do we have separate bathrooms, showers, and barracks based on gender?  And I don't think "Hey, this didn't break the system, so let's see if this does!" is the right tack to take with our military in the middle of a war.

34

#7 is correct. Why should we continue to use a system that works. It should be ended immediately and something implimented to massively fuck up the entire system so we can say we accomplished something, even if it was the wrong thing.

Also, if you want to try and let them openly serve, just watch the number of enlistees/reenlistees fall faster than the unemployment numbers are growing. No better way to purge 80% of the ranks than force them to 'get busy' with a flamer. Just imagine GI Joe in full battle gear being forced to defend a foxhole with Perez Hilton, I guarantee no more than one would survive the situation.

35 I've been in the Reserve/Guard 27 years.  Our state headquarters is overrun with "angry women" who blatantly put their orientation out there and pretty much dare you to say somethig about it.  I'm not talking about E-3's and 4's.  I'm talking about 05's and 06's.  Some of Teh Gheys's I've worked with have been great soldiers, some have sucked (but I repeat myself).  So repeal DADT/Dont repeal DADT.  I dont think it makes much difference.

36

Are heterosexual men allowed to shower with women of any kind? Even if there is no sex, they don't allow men a free show and don't allow men to make women uncomfortable.

Why should gay men get to shower with hetersexual men and get a free show? Or make them uncomfortable.

Go unisex washrooms, showers bunks all the way or leave things as they are.

37   I don't care who you screw.  I'd rather not even hear about it.


Isn't that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" in a nutshell?

38 the military has pretty much made it obvious that they don't want DADT taken away.  Obumbles can't afford to piss off the military at this point.

39 Even some gays like to  train, shoot guns and fight.

40

Isn't that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" in a nutshell?

Yeah.  I retracted downthread.

41
If someone is having\wantstohave sex\torture with Children/Animals/DeadPeople/Plants/ I would be concerned that their psychosis/psychological problem is serious enough to concern me. Of course if they are doing something normal, like sticking their penis up a member of the same sex, why, that's as different as black and white! 

42 I really dont want to hear about same-sex couples asking for family housing, or Gay-Lesbian-Trans outreach booths on military bases.   However, as long as they keep their private lives 50 miles from the flagpole, I don't care.

43

It's strange how ostensibly straight men always confront questions of DADT with images of the over-the-top gay porn flick that will break out all across the military if the policy were ever overturned.

Yes, gay men are characters out of a Naked Gun film, laying in wait until someone bends over in the shower so they can dash across the tiles and stick it in. That's exactly how it happens in real life. And then, of course, there's Bunk Mates 47. Rodney is a lonely recruit in bootcamp until one night, the attractive Phil decides to give him a little welcome as twenty recruits look on . . .

Good grief.

Do half of you even know any gay men? And not what television taught you. Somehow, gay males all across the country manage their way through high school and college sports locker rooms without all these fevered porn fantasies happening, but the second they get into the military . . . well, all that gun oil, they won't be able to stop themselves. It will be a house of madness, lube, and Liza!

You people are idiots. Seriously.

44 Fookin' sockpuppets. 

45  Way to gay it up Robbie, you drama queen.

46 Once again AoS gets more like LGF, with Gabriel leading the way. 

Allowing open homosexuals to serve fulfills the same agenda as allowing women in combat roles- it feminizes the military and alters gender roles.  The main motivation of men to perform honorably in combat has been to be seen as brave and honorable men among their buddies.  When it's something any lisping Bruce or push-up Susie can do it will cease to be anything manly or special.  The main motivation to fight will be gone.

47

Here's my "there's no privacy in the military" story.  I was in a barracks during the basic training for ROTC cadets (called advanced camp) that didn't have stalls for the toilets.  They were right across from the sinks and mirrors where everybody was shaving in the morning.

48 The first openly sexual gay man in every unit would be the company bitch in 0.5 seconds and would stay that way until his dying breath. (maybe even at the hands of an enemy)

49 You people are idiots. Seriously.

The Military has a culture that is, unfortunately for you, not sodomy-friendly.  Deal.

50

Upsetting the cart in order to appease 1 to 2 percent of our potential military force is not what I call a very good risk venture.  The potential downside far outweighs any upside.  

51

Do half of you even know any gay men?

Problem is, most of us do.  It's not the soap in the shower, and you're deliberately misunderstanding that bit of humor.  It's more the gay ethos that's too problematic for the military.  And don't try to say there aren't typical gay affectations and other behaviors, short of sex, one sees among gays who care to be open about it. 

52

You people are idiots. Seriously.

I hope you didn't sprain your wrist when you typed that.

 

53 Socrates' speech on love in the Symposium--arguing that love is merely a longing for immortality and ideas are immortal--is just a conceit of the intellectual. I prefer Aristophanes' speech, imagining a world in which humans were once four-armed, four-legged, and two-headed balls who tumbled around doing cartwheels, each one split in two and yearning to find their other half.

54 Hey, I did just fine with a gay army!

55

The usual bumf, accompanied by the usual hooey about how "homosexuals are already serving in the military and always have been."

Okay, then name one who's serving in the military.  Right now.

I personally know one gay man (O-5, Navy Commander) that is serving and I know one female gay Air Force General through a friend.  I'm not going to name them for obvious reasons.

DADT works.

Grim

56

DADT does need to go. We need to return to the previous policy - a ban.

DADT was a mistake from the beginning. It was a cowardly way for a democrat president to skirt the issue while making it look like something was being done to change things. As is typical, it backfired.

Those who are discharged under DADT are pushed out necessarily because they can’t abide by the regulations (DADT) governing conduct. It’s not a matter of sexual preferance - it’s a matter of conduct as well as changing the military due to cultural pressures for their own sake.

The military is not the place to experiment with social constructs.

57 I'm more unsettled by women in combat.

Yep, to me, its the same thing really.  If all of the service was peacetime stay at home Gomer Pyle stuff, it probably wouldn't matter.  If there is the slightest perception of favoritism in matters of life or death, true or not, I would expect unit cohesion will go to hell quickly. 

Why invite trouble?


BTW, perhaps you VN combat vets could put me the knowledge; was there a widespread perception of racial favoritism in line units during the war?  Was there a sense of the "the white SGT keeps putting the n***s on point", etc?  Big deal?

58 I suggest changing the definition of homosexual to mean 'sex between two people' then this way hetero can enjoy all the benefits of Gay.

59 Robbie - Trust me, you are out of your depth here.

60  OTOH our parades would FAAAAAAAAAABULOUS!

61 I think one of the issues is that so many homosexuals consider their gayness to be point and center of who they are. Ask them to list so things about themselves and "I'm gay" probably is one of the, if not the first things they'll list. (whereas no heterosexual will list their heterosexuality as a trait)To deny them the ability to openly acknowledge this is seen a a huge affront to the gay community.

It doesn't matter that DADT works fine and that gays can serve without a problem, as long as their identity is so closely tied to their sexuality, this will always be an issue.

62 @54 But you foisted Aristotle on 8AM University Courses. Aristotle rose to prominence not through his ideas but as the academic favored by the most powerful man in the world at the time, King Philip II of Macedonia. Philip II loved this unknown philosopher and fellow Macedonian so much that he chose Aristotle to be his son's tutor--and his son was Alexander the Great. Aristotle was a guy beloved by kings who conquered the world and spread his ideas.

63 All we did while I was in was make fag and homo jokes.
We couldn't comment or joke about bitches and hoes anymore because that was sexual harassment (ef'n Navy and their Tailhook scandal ruined that!).

All we had left to abuse were homosexuals!  If gays are allowed in, then fag and homo jokes will be ruled harassment, too.

Then, I ask you, what will soldiers take about during their ef-off time?
Hmmm?

64

I'm with rdbrewer. Shoot straight and take the hill. I don't care about much else including sex, sexual orientation, skin color, or religion. Do a good job, nobody cares. If you become a disruptive influence (regardless of cause straight or gay)... out on your ass.

Hell, one of the best combat tank commanders I ever met was a woman. No, she was not in the US Army.

65

The problem with these assumptions is that they rest on the idea that the pranciest of gay men are the same ones who earnestly want to take up a career in the military. That thinking is generally in error. The stereotypical gay characture  usually also tends to be a raging Leftist, and they wouldn't be caught dead in the army.

The kinds of gay individuals looking for a life in the military are generally the ones who eschew the stereotypical identity, want no part in the left-wing culture, and aren't skipping merrily through the barracks.

The perception that gay = weak also seems to be coloring the images here. I know more than a few gay men in the military. I'd like to see you explain how they're going to be anyone else's bitch. And after your jaw is wired back together, I'd like to know if you still hold that idea.

Most of the time, in a military environment, gay does not mean the effeminate stereotype. It usually veers closer to androphiles who aren't likely to take anyone's bullshit, who are used to getting shit and dishing it out from men who think they can go after them for their sexuality.

I guarantee, half the posters here talking such bullshit would quiet themselves pretty quickly if faced with these men in person. And I further guarantee if they did mouth off, they'd probably never admit to the epic ass-kicking they received shortly after.

You know, because you'll have gotten beaten up by a sissy. And that would just be embarrassing.

66 I'm inclined to refuse teh gheys just because they never seem satisfied.  Clinton gave them DADT, and they immediately demanded the whole canoli.  Same thing with the judicial repeal of sodomy laws immediately leading to demands for marriage.  Before long, they'll be demanding your first born manchild, because they can't make on themselves.

DADT is as good a hill as any to die on.  They need to take "no" for an answer at some point. 

67

Well, I've served in both support roles in peace time and in a combat role in wartime.  I was in the military when DADT was put into effect, and supported it at the time.  I have a couple of thoughts.

1.  DADT is eventually going to be ended, whether it is in 1 year or 20 years doesn't really matter.

2.  DADT has given both the military and society time to sort out the gay issue.  Don't forget - the "homosexual agenda" only really started in the 1970s before that, homosexuality was much more underground, and society at large had to come to grips with it.  It seemed to me that it was unfair for people to expect the military - one of the more conservative institutions in the country - to turn 180 degrees on this issue.  DADT provided a good transition policy from outright ban to open homosexuality.

3.  This is not the same as the previous racial segregation.  Race is, as Colin Powell said, a benign characteristic that homosexuality may or may not be.  Furthermore, the presence of blacks was known and accepted by all in Truman's time.

3.  Yes, the ban and DADT are odd because they are supporting people's prejudice.  Yeah, that's too bad.  The reality however is that the military isn't REALLY a reflection of the society it comes out of - rather it is overly representative of more conservative, both socially and politically, America.  Since that is the constituency that makes up the military, the military has to be sensitive to that element if it hopes to keep enough recruits.  Unless, of course, we think the resulting drop in interest will be made up by kids from suburban DC and San Fran enlisting.

4.  But, again, eventually, almost every state will allow homosexual marriage, the body of law surrounding homosexual rights will be well developed, and the presence and acceptance of homosexuals will be supported by a large % of all Americans, and when that occurs, the military will transform with no fuss.

68 I have to disagree with you Gabe.  I'm sure there are gays who are great Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines and I honor their service and thank them for it.  But I agree with DADT.  There's no reason to make their sexual preferences public. 

But I also don't think they should be sending MP's around to snoop for personnel in gay bars off base for the express purpose of outing them and kicking them out of the service.

Governor Sarah Palin needs your help!

Go to conservatives4palin.com to find out more.

69

If you become a disruptive influence (regardless of cause straight or gay)... out on your ass.

Dingdingdingding!  There you go.  That's it in a nutshell.

70 Robbie, the internet tough guy stand in for gays.

71 out of curiousity, we know that the mixed gender services aren't supposed to have relations either-yet the pregnancy rates and numbers unable to serve due to pregnancy are ridiculously high.  That's a reality-the rules so don't do it but human nature throws a monkey wrench in the theory.  To say this change would have no effect and not lead to further social engineering is just a theory that doesn't seem particularly realistic to me.   

72 Hey, and UofC is not really with me.  Okay?  He means he agrees with me.  Just wanna be clear on that.

73 The kinds of gay individuals looking for a life in the military are generally the ones who eschew the stereotypical identity, want no part in the left-wing culture, and aren't skipping merrily through the barracks.

If this was the case, they'd shut the fuck up and do their duty without demanding to take Bob to the Marine Corps Ball.


I guarantee, half the posters here talking such bullshit would quiet themselves pretty quickly if faced with these men in person. And I further guarantee if they did mouth off, they'd probably never admit to the epic ass-kicking they received shortly after.

Now they're the toughest motherfuckers of all.  Way to stereotype, Robbie.

74 >>Or make them uncomfortable.<<

"Senator, we cannot allow the hommasexuls in the army. They make the men 'uncomfortable.'"

"General, if that's all it takes to make the men 'uncomfortable,' then I submit to you that we already have an army of mincing faggots."

"Yes, ma'am."

"Carry on, General."

75 MCPO Airdale, your name-hyperlink doesn't work.

76

Simple -

They should just let all of the enlisted men and women vote since they are the ones who have to live with the results.

Anyone who does not have to live with this decision should not be involved.

77 Robbie, honey pie, I don't get beaten up by anybody. I just shoot. So just you take your Butchy boy bullshit on down the hall.

78

Hey, and UofC is not really with me.  Okay?  He means he agrees with me.  Just wanna be clear on that.

ROTFLOL ... Yes, let's be clear about that.

79 Then we should allow men and women to bunk together, right General Zod?  If the women are uncomfortable having to shower and dress in front of men, then they should find a straw and suck it the fuck up I guess...

I love how everyone in favor of ending DADT has simply ignored my original question. 

Typical.

80

Most of the time, in a military environment, gay does not mean the effeminate stereotype.

Esp. when talking about women.

81 toby928:
One of the biggest liberal lies about Vietnam was that minorities had the most dangerous jobs and suffered a disproportionate number of WIA/KIA.  That's bullshit.   My own experience was that the guys who were on point where there because they wanted to be there.

82

You know, because you'll have gotten beaten up by a sissy. And that would just be embarrassing.

Yes, yes, we'd all just get stomped into the ground in a colorful way that involves pattern and texture as well as lots of lisping and references to Tim Gunn and Nate Burkis.  You'll be at the Blue Oyster tonight though, right? 

83 Great, another clique to try to take over the military.

84 You go to the military to fight, not fuck.  Hence, you should be accommodating people's sexual isms can only lead to trouble. The military needs to be focused on winning war, not accommodating on the latest grievance for people into inter-species erotica.

85

To paraphrase Eddie Murphy talking about how a straight guy can hang out with a gay guy

 Just after stint of working on a tank you say:
"I'm gonna get a beer, what's you gonna do ?"

"I think I'm gonna suck some guy's dick."
"Well, I'll see you later!"

"You go suck that dick, I'm gonna have the beer."

 

86

The problem with these assumptions is that they rest on the idea that the pranciest of gay men are the same ones who earnestly want to take up a career in the military. That thinking is generally in error.

Bigotry. 

87 Managing sexuality in the military is a problem thousands of years old. Women are still not allowed in some units for this reason. For those who have never been on an extended deployment before, it is an eye opener about how deeply seated human sexuality really is. For upon return to society, just a whiff of a woman's perfume is enough to make you walk funny. The result of female integration has been a large number of conduct cases, not from some inherent flaw in women but just from nature. The day mankind gets over "sexuality" (esp in the 18-35 crowd) is about 30 years prior to mankind going extinct. The General was right DADT was never about performance of gays. Current sexual segregation is not about performance. But more thought than  "When else do we discriminate on the basis of not what a person is or does, but what others think of it?" is clearly needed before we change the sexual dynamic of front line military units. No level of egalitarianism justifies making front line units less effective. DADT is going to go away, it is just a matter of when. I just hope we put some real thought into how it will change the service dynamic and do it for the best readiness of those who must face the enemy.

88

 Robbie at June 19, 2009 01:58 PM (+D9QR)

So how do your friends feel about DADT?

89

Anybody watching the US Open?  Does anybody know how to stream live NBC from the computer?

90 Shalikashvili was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs when DADT became a policy.  I don't remember him bitchin' about it back then.

91 The problem with these assumptions is that they rest on the idea that the pranciest of gay men are the same ones who earnestly want to take up a career in the military. That thinking is generally in error.

Problem is, if homosexuality is normalized in the military, then there will be the "pranciest of gay men" joining up, if for no other reason than to make a political statement.  See: Shannon Faulkner, The Citadel.

92 My own experience was that the guys who were on point where there because they wanted to be there.

Thanks for the reply.  If you will allow me a followup; my question was really one perception.  Did minorities perceive that there was favoritism?  Or worse, were there cases where white soldiers thought that there was favoritism?  If so, was this perception disruptive of cohesion?

93 I uh strongly support the repeal of DADT and gays serving in the military.  Unless of course, they are um serving in the uh Basiji Corps or any of the branches of the Iranian military.  Then I uh don't support them at all.  I um don't believe America should impose its values on other countries or uh meddle in international elections.

94 Did minorities perceive that there was favoritism?


They always do, no matter the facts.  Otherwise, they might have to STFU and deal with life.

95 @Sam I love how everyone in favor of ending DADT has simply ignored my original question. 

Typical.

I love how everyone in favor of ending it has yet to explain why we want those who put being an 'open' homosexual, above being a soldier, in the military.

96 I'm generally of the "live and let live" persuasion myself, so I don't really care who screws whom, but I simply have a deep mistrust of the Left and their motivations on this issue.  If we all could rationally agree that the overriding goal of the military is to kill people and break things, and that all other considerations are secondary, then yeah I'd agree that we should end DADT, insofar as it inhibits otherwise deserving individuals from joining up and making the military even more awesome.  But I don't believe the Left believes this - they want "social justice" and "utopia" even if it means undermining the military.  So I'm more inclined to keep DADT, if for that reason alone.

97

you'll have gotten beaten up by a sissy

Fags are mean! 

98 Gabe, shouldn't this post be accompanied by a flaming butt?  Yeah, a lit cigarette!  What were you all thinking?

99 "The sixteen-year experiment of DADT shows that gays serve effectively in the military otherwise, which should be enough for them to have the same access to serving their country as anyone else. It has also not produced a massive exodus of people from the service during that time."

Experiment? Not so.

DADT is simply a label applied to how things already existed in the military. Homosexuals already enlisted and served as troopers, but certainly not as "gay" troopers, and they kept it to themselves so as to prevent it from becoming an issue. So there would have been no reason for the number of homosexuals participating in the military to change based upon Don't Ask/don't tell "official" policy 16 years ago. DADT simply protected everyone concerned from getting involved one way or the other. DADT is tolerance. Military life is already demanding and exhausting. Demanding more is demanding more FROM the troops without giving them more benefits.

The removal of DADT privacy notice may well attract gay rights activists into the service who would disrupt the long standing "balance" and protocol. The removal of DADT and subsequent increase in overt or aggressive homosexuals in the military would likely alter/lower the volunteer rate from heterosexuals contemplating military enlistment.

Working together while sharing living quarters 24/7 non-stop with gay rights activists sounds like trouble for everyone else. It isn't the same as merely working with someone at an office and then going home to your own life and your own ways afterwards. I don't think that anyone outside of the military should be coercing or brow beating NEW decisions upon those who already volunteered to serve according to certain specified standard procedures. Military life is already the hardest of all. Give the troops a break and appreciate them, their work and their sacrifices without further requirements demanding more "tolerance" FROM them.

100

No level of egalitarianism justifies making front line units less effective.

Yeh. I've never ever had a problem with gays. But knowing that many current service members would have a problem keeps me from totally supporting throwing DADT out the window today. OTOH, I think they over-estimate the likelihood of a Folsom Street Fair in family housing next week.

101 The removal of DADT privacy notice may well attract gay rights activists into the service who would disrupt the long standing "balance" and protocol.

Bingo.

102 If the logic holds: the objection to women in the military was that women weren't physically strong enough for combat due to their genes, that pregnancy would be a huge issue, and that straight troops would forever be trying to fuck them. Oh, also, a point that Jean Kirkpatrick made back in the day--that men would waste themselves trying to save a wounded female colleague under fire. All reasonable enough.

Gays don't lack the Y chrome, and so have no demonstrable inability to train to the physical standard. They don't get pregnant, the straights aren't unlikely to want to fuck them and vice versa (though the "soap-shower" clique can't seem to noodle this aspect), and, if everything I'm hearing from the "fuckin' fags" crowd sounds right, straight guys aren't likely to break a sweat saving a wounded gay.

QED?

103

DADT is tolerance.

Yup.  Good point.

104 >>unlikely<<

typo: read "likely." my bad.

105 I won 5 to 1....gays mad at hussein.....small concession by hussein.....gays mad at hussein.......bigger concession by friend of hussein...............gays are in love again..........

106 Next up, ACU with matching handbag and heels. Dress uniform will now come complete with tutu and pink bowler.

Please, someone tell me this is just a very bad dream from which I will awaken.

107 OTOH, I think they over-estimate the likelihood of a Folsom Street Fair in family housing next week.

Okay maybe Folsom Street Fair carries it a bit too far.  But why is it so unreasonable to expect that the Left will demand "Gay Soldier Appreciation Day"?  This is their standard M.O. for promoting "diversity" and "tolerance".  Again I wouldn't care at all if it was in civilian life.  But the singular, overriding, overarching purpose of the military is to kill people and break things.  It's not a social engineering playground.

108 #90 - Shali was not Chairman of the Joint Chiefs when DADT was put into effect - Powell was.

109 Part of military discipline is learning to conform to its culture, not the other way around.  This is done to save your life in battle. The minute you start changing things and make the institution subject to every grievance from every interest group is the minute where you lose the institution. Once that happens, then there's no much point in having a disciplined army.

110

The Greeks and Romans seemed to do OK. It has always struck me as being distincltly anti-Western to make such a big deal about homosexuality.

I actuallly relish the thought of a Gay Brigade bringing Osama bin Laden's head back to the USA on a platter.

111 >>But the singular, overriding, overarching purpose of the military is to kill people and break things.<<

Exactly. And when national security is on the line, I'll take three-eyed hobo mutants if they can prove they're best at busting up stuff and killin' people...

112 And let us not forget the partisan political angle of all this.  It's no secret that the military votes overwhelmingly Republican.  By attracting more leftist-friendly constituencies into the military, Democrats are attempting to break that solid voting bloc.

Don't be naive folks, Barack "I Won" Obama wants to finish off the Republican Party once and for all.

113

The Greeks and Romans seemed to do OK.

So?

114

QED?

QED of what?  That women in the military are different than gays in the military?

115 The Greeks and Romans seemed to do OK. It has always struck me as being distincltly anti-Western to make such a big deal about homosexuality.

I think the intervening 2,000 years of culture are relevant.

116 The Greeks and Romans seemed to do OK.

They also thought it was okay to be pederasts.

117 What we need is a military of all homos! 

118

So?

So?

 

119

But why is it so unreasonable to expect that the Left will demand "Gay Soldier Appreciation Day"?  This is their standard M.O. for promoting "diversity" and "tolerance". 

The diversity training will be what drives people out, not the actual diverse people.

/only half kidding

120 That dick in my ass? That's a bit uncomfortable. But I'll deal with it, Robbie!

121

Remember that scene in 'Apocalypse Now' when Robert Duvall gave that disemboweled VietCong a drink from his own canteen?  Seems like if someone gay was willing to risk his own life in sacrifice for his country, we should see past his inclination to puff on peters.

I understand young men would be quite unhappy about this new inclusion, and I bet they would police these gays' actions in the common areas.  I imagine the fag, now 'free' to proclaim his fagaticity, would know when and where to talk about such stuff.

Never served, so I can't say....I'm getting learnt by all you guys that have been there, so please don't think I'm trying to tell you how to feel.

Damn, now I feel gay....

122 Exactly. And when national security is on the line, I'll take three-eyed hobo mutants if they can prove they're best at busting up stuff and killin' people...

But that's not even the issue.  I personally don't care if gays, straights, or three-eyed hobo mutants serve in the military.  But they all must conform to the military's goals and standards, not some gauzy leftist tripe of "social justice".

123 "I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals FLAAAAMING!"Homer Simpson

124

Seems like if someone gay was willing to risk his own life in sacrifice for his country, we should see past his inclination to puff on peters.

I think most would.  But they don't want an issue made of it.

125 I had thought that Greek sodomy, like the prison variety, was all about being the top rail.  That is, its okay to be a pitcher but the catcher was looked down on.

126 I hope I'm wrong but like in the workplace, in a social construct, whathaveyou , this will be another "cause" for the angry left. To find any reason to go after non-gays. Find a soldier that didn't get a promotion over a non-gay and turn into a civil rights lawsuit.

They have never been able to identify their cause celebre, now they will be able to.

127 Catchers are the shit.

128

Leave DADT alone!!

Even before DADT there were gay people in the service. Hell, it was a dodge in a bunch of cases to get out of deployment. "Hey, Chief, I'm gay so I can't go with you guys on that 9 month deployment, 3 month post-deployment yard visit, 3 month pre-deployment shakedown, and subsequent 9 month deployment." "Ok, see ya." WTF. If a gay person can fit in, then DADT lets them serve. But if they're douchebags, then it gives an easy excuse to let 'em go.

129 DADT will end when the draft is reinstated and homosexuality is insufficiently taboo that draftees will simply state, "I'm gay" to avoid the draft.

130 The Greeks and Romans seemed to do OK. It has always struck me as being distincltly anti-Western to make such a big deal about homosexuality.

We need to be careful about this sort of comparison. The Greeks and Romans were pagans with different cultural assumptions about sexuality. Our society thinks differently about these things, which is what makes it a disruptive issue.

I haven't served, so I can't take an informed position on this issue. The libertarian in me takes the "it doesn't matter who you fuck as long as you fight" position; the borderline paranoid schizophrenic in me thinks this is plot to impair military efficiency. You might say that I'm of two personalities about this issue.

131 The Greeks and Romans seemed to do OK.

I really wouldn't bring up the Greeks.  Homosexuality wasn't exactly between consenting adults in that culture.

132

The Greeks and Romans seemed to do OK. It has always struck me as being distincltly anti-Western to make such a big deal about homosexuality.

So are you saying Greek and Roman homosexuality was a choice and not biological? The example of Greek and Roman homosexuality is part of the cognitive dissonance of the gay advocate groups.  Choice for the ancients and biological for today's gays.

133

Currently, under DADT, a gay can't out himself and claim discrimination in order to get out from under some UCMJ issue, or to bitch about not getting a promotion.

IOW, the phrase, "shut up and soldier" applies.

As has been experienced with other Accredited Victim Groups, bogus claims of discrimination have been a major thorn in the side of the military for decades.

After the Tailhook scandal, the Navy was so spooked that the first two women who graduated from F14 school did so with grades which should have flunked them and would have flunked a man. That worked out well.  Only one augured in.

The quest for diversity at Annapolis is so energetic that the diversity entrants would not qualify if they were straight males.  Yet we expect to give them charge over a bunch of American mothers' kids.

This will be one more unnecessary hassle.  We don't need it. Gays don't need it.  My guess is that the impetus for this comes from the non-and-never soldiers, as the impetus for women in the military and in combat came, in the old days, from some women the courtly Sam Ervin said might, although he couldn't see it himself, not quite meet the age limit.

Let them do their thing.  Keep it a mile from the flagpole like all the other stuff going on, don't be sniffing around enlisted married quarters, and things will go far better than if we empower trouble from a bunch of folks who have other things than military effectiveness in mind.

 

134 Sockpuppet off.  There.  Now I don't have to worry about it.  Figure I'd unload my fuckuppery now.

135

toby928:

Actually, in the classical world, man-man love was considered the highest form of spiritual love. man-woman love was on a lower level, reserved only for making and raising babies. It was said of Julius Caesar that he was every wife's husband and every husband's wife, or something to that effect.

If we are to presume that men and women can serve together, even though it is known that said men and women are heterosexual, then why can't we presume that men and men or women and women could serve together, even if it were presumed that they were homosexual.

I think the teenagers coming up these days aren't as freaked out by the notion of working with someone who is gay. That's just my opinion, but I'm more of a libertarian anyway.

 

136

The diversity training will be what drives people out, not the actual diverse people.

/only half kidding

Oh you're right, and I'm not kidding at all.  I work at a university and what pisses me off constantly are all the endless award ceremonies and self-congratulatory adulations that the leftists have on behalf of each other.  If it's not "Women's Appreciation Month", it's "Latino Pride Recognition Day" or "Week in Recognition of One-Armed Socialist Bolivian Lesbian Vegan Environmentalist Freedom-Fighters".  Gawd almighty.  And then they have these awards for the most trivial of accomplishments - a woman woke up one morning and decided to reject the authoritarian demands of the sexist male patriarchy, and BINGO - the woman wins the "Most Awesomest Women On Campus Award".  I swear, if these people would spend half as much time in the classroom and in the research lab as they do patting themselves on the back, we'd have the cure for cancer by now.

137 The Greeks and Romans seemed to do OK.

The Romans conquered the Greeks because they got lazy, self-absorbed, and conceited.  Then the same thing happened to the Romans.  I wouldn't really consider that to be "ok."

138 Part of military discipline is learning to conform to its culture, not the other way around.  This is done to save your life in battle.

Yes.

Furthermore, there's a lot of blood spilled in combat. No trooper deserves the higher risk of infection from HIV and other contagious elements inherent with homosexuality.

Judging from stateside activities and attitudes, San Francisco for instance, gay rights activists abuse the military as an institution and military personnel, treating our troops as subhumans. They pressure and enable politicians to discriminate against our military. It is the homosexuals who are practicing intolerance for the heterosexuals today. They have no moral authority to demand any change.

DADT functions well. Don't MEDDLE and don't quote good intentions.

139 Is Ace joining Troopathon?  I see it on most conservative blogs, so I thought I'd ask.

140 So . . . does every fetishist have their own grievance lawyers?

I personally can't get off unless my partners, together, shit living hamsters onto my chest while Joel Schumacher's Batman and Robin plays on in the background on mute.

I can't wait to tell my C.O.!!!

141 It's the only issue, chemjeff. The goal and standard is "eyes right, squeeze don't jerk, kill or be killed." There is social engineering in the military--social engineering to follow orders, learn to work on little sleep, condition your stomach to eat shit food, and to kill them before they kill you.

The Army exists to fuck up other armies, political misapplications notwithstanding. If gays can do that well, rock on. If they can't, thanks for playing, Mr. Fabulous, here's a bus ticket home.

Anything else is just sobbing "he looked at me!" girl scout simpering.

142 Having never served in the military I wouldn't know or understand the dynamics of a fighting unit.  If being homosexual can throw off the effectiveness of a fighting unit in any way shape or form then homosexuals should be barred from that line of service.

Other than that, what is wrong with having homosexuals serve as cooks, clerical, mechanics, translators, swabbies or any of the other non-combat responsibilities?

We can have an all homosexual unit that designs camouflage, develops the military MRE's, and so on.....just kidding.

143 126 I hope I'm wrong but like in the workplace, in a social construct, whathaveyou , this will be another "cause" for the angry left. To find any reason to go after non-gays. Find a soldier that didn't get a promotion over a non-gay and turn into a civil rights lawsuit.

You aren't wrong, and this is another big danger.  We will have politicization of military promotion criteria.  Again if this was in civilian life I personally wouldn't care if Acme Corp. decided to promote only quadriplegic Buddhist homosexuals.  But the purpose of the military is to kill people and break things, not to ensure that there is some "proper balance" in the officer corps.

144 Being closeted makes you a security risk because an enemy can use that to co opt you by threatening to reveal it and get you discharged.

Eliminating DADT eliminates once major possible vector for security compromises.

145

If we are to presume that men and women can serve together, even though it is known that said men and women are heterosexual, then why can't we presume that men and men or women and women could serve together, even if it were presumed that they were homosexual.

I think the teenagers coming up these days aren't as freaked out by the notion of working with someone who is gay. That's just my opinion, but I'm more of a libertarian anyway.

It's like you want to deny that revulsion is an emotion and not some form of hate.

146

Romans?

No doubt there were plenty of homos (they are Italian after all, and I'm pretty sure "Italian" is Italian for "flaming gay"). But generally speaking the Romans looked down quite a bit on that business.

Seriously. Homosexuality was not some celebrated thing in the Roman legions and they used it (not unlike heterosexual men today do) generally derogatorily.

147

polynikes:

What I'm saying is that in a society that doesn't stress about homosexuality, there is barely a notice if someone screws someone of the same gender. It doesn't carry the socially disruptive connotation.

In a way, it wouldn't be an issue if it weren't such an issue. If we are serious about individual liberty and the right of people to live their lives and keep their property, then we should respect people's personal decisions and look beyond them.

To me, not serving with someone because they have different sexual practices is like refusing to serve with someone because they have different religious practices.

148
Oh yeah, here we go with the "EVERYBODY IS GAY!" claim.

149

OT

Via gateway pundit:

Wouldn't it be nice to see this at the checkout?

http://tinyurl.com/mdsvvd

Go HERE to see full story.

150 What the f--

151 Well peter,

Maybe you can answer this:

We separate accommodations for men and women who serve together, whether in the same platoon, unit, ship, etc.  We do this for reasons of privacy and sexual tension.

If a man or woman is actively gay, who do they "bunk" with.  If we won't have a man sleep in the same hooch with a woman for the above reasons, does that woman retain the same rights when it comes to rooming her with a lesbian counterpart?

Where do you put the lesbian then?  Room them with a man?  I hardly think people would find that acceptable? Other lesbians?  Same situation applies to men.

152

 "EVERYBODY IS GAY!" claim

 

Every time I see a pic of Sarah Palin, I think I might be.

Just sayin'.

153

rdbrewer:

I would argue that revulsion is a conditioned emotional response. If you study the eating habits of various peoples around the world, for instance, you will find that what is revolting to people of one culture is not revolting to people of another.

Also, cultures have a tendency to change over time. This is a natural process that Burke noted in several places. I think future generations will not have such a freaked out response to homosexuality as it becomes more of an everyday part of life.

154

No trooper deserves the higher risk of infection from HIV and other contagious elements inherent with homosexuality.

I can't believe I have to say this here: won't you people think about lesbians???

 

155

I would argue that revulsion is a conditioned emotional response.

Well, let me rub your face in a pile of shit and then force you to eat maggot-ridden meat.  Then see what you would argue.

156 "Being closeted makes you a security risk because an enemy can use that to co opt you by threatening to reveal it and get you discharged. Eliminating DADT eliminates once major possible vector for security compromises."

I would think that given DADT, so long as the individual is not broadcasting his sexuality, then regardless of his preference, it doesn't matter. If an enemy reveals his sexuality, it wasn't his superiors asking, and it wasn't him telling.

157
I can't believe I have to say this here: won't you people think about lesbians???

Unfortunately military lesbians tend towards the rosie odonell pigopatomus variety, rather than the hot lipstick lesbian type.

158 141 It's the only issue, chemjeff.

No, it isn't.

The issue is not "can gays shoot straight?"  Obviously YES.  The issue is "given that gays can shoot straight, does that entitle them to openly flaunt their sexual orientation?"  I say, insofar as it conflicts with the military's goals, then NO.  It's the same with any other expression of individualistic behavior.  I wouldn't be allowed to wear my Metallica T-shirt instead of my uniform, even though I might be THE BIGGEST METALLICA FAN EVAH.  The military isn't a place where individualistic tendencies are encouraged, and rightly so.

159

The economy is collapsing, the Norks are getting ready to throw a missile at Pearl Harbor, revolution in Iran, and this is what the MSM thinks is important would make a good red herring.

160 I would get a sex change if I could have lesbian encounters with Sarah Palin.

161 Shalikashvili was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs when DADT became a policy.  I don't remember him bitchin' about it back then.

At that level they aren't fighting men any more.  They're politicians.

162 One time I worked in a work environment that was loaded with homosexuals, probably half the guys were gay. It was one of the most catty environments I have ever worked in.

The guy in the cubicle next to me kept popping up to look over and talk to me. One time I caught him staring at my crotch. I looked down and realized my khaki's were riding up and enhancing my basket. My balls were totally outlined and I caught this guy checking out my goods. It shook me the fuck up, but just a little.
I thought, shit, if it was a girl who had cleavage or camel toe, I would probably be tempted to look.
So, if gays are in a fighting unit, and one dude is riding up, would a homosexual have the discipline to not stare and make the other guy uncomfortable? I don't know. Most would, I assume, some not.  How would that impact the function of a fighting unit?

163 The irony here is striking - in nearly every other avenue of life, Leftists want us to subordinate our individualism in the name of the collective.  But when it comes to the military, a collectivist organization if there ever was one, the Left wants to tear it down in favor of individualistic impulses.

164

Actually, in the classical world, man-man love was considered the highest form of spiritual love.

In SPARTA!, yes. Rome... I dispute that.

165

Sam:

I think the genders are kept apart to avoid pregnancies, love triangles and sexual assaults for the most part. The military is pretty good about enforcing rules about fraternization, etc... If homosexuals were to fall in love, etc... in the field, it would be in their professional best interest to keep it away from work. If they couldn't, they would be discharged just like their hetero counterparts.

 

dbrewer:

People used to eat maggot-ridden meat in certain places in the world as a matter of course. They were used to it.

As for rubbing my face in shit, it would certainly disgust me, but there are some people who enjoy that sort of thing, reinforcing my point that disgust is an emotional response.

166 The Greeks and Romans seemed to do OK.

Tell you what, then.  Let's set up a fight between an authentically equipped Roman legion and a modern US infantry division.  You know, to see which one is more effective in combat.

167

No trooper deserves the higher risk of infection from HIV and other contagious elements inherent with homosexuality.

I can't believe I have to say this here: won't you people think about lesbians???---Posted by: Mama AJ

One aspect is not required to explicate or apply to all else.

168 I think we should ban breeders.  All they do is rape and oppress.

169 Wasn't one of the dudes on MASH a fag?  The mediteranean looking one, I can't remember his name. Seemed like he was always in a dress. Never actually saw him suck a dick, but hey, TV in the 70's was different than it is now.

170

The irony here is striking - in nearly every other avenue of life, Leftists want us to subordinate our individualism in the name of the collective.  But when it comes to the military, a collectivist organization if there ever was one, the Left wants to tear it down in favor of individualistic impulses.

Our collectives are better than your collectives.

171 I can't believe I have to say this here: won't you people think about lesbians???

I think about lesbians all the time.

172 148
Oh yeah, here we go with the "EVERYBODY IS GAY!" claim.

Posted by: Dang Straights at June 19, 2009 02:38 PM (Haq+B)

__________________________________________________

Everyone has AIDS!
AIDS AIDS AIDS!
AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS!
Everyone has AIDS!

And so this is the end of our story
And everyone is dead from AIDS
It took from me my best friend
My only true pal
My only bright star (he died of AIDS)

Well I'm gonna march on Washington
Lead the fight and charge the brigades
There's a hero inside of all of us
I'll make them see everyone has AIDS

My father (AIDS!)
My sister (AIDS!)
My uncle and my cousin and her best friend (AIDS AIDS AIDS!)
The gays and the straights
And the white and the spades
Everyone has AIDS!

My grandma and my dog 'ol blue (AIDS AIDS AIDS)
The pope has got it and so do you (AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS)
C'mon everybody we got quilting to do (AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS)
We gotta break down these baricades, everyone has
AIDS! x 20

173 No trooper deserves the higher risk of infection from HIV

You think this "risk" is lower because they're currently closeted rather than in the open?

174 DADT is stupid, and it needs to go. 

Competence should be the only standard for judging Soldiers.

175 The issue is "given that gays can shoot straight, does that entitle them to openly flaunt their sexual orientation?"  I say, insofar as it conflicts with the military's goals, then NO.  It's the same with any other expression of individualistic behavior. ---chemjeff

Exactly.

176 Also, cultures have a tendency to change over time.

Well, there you have a bit of the rub, because it isn't changing, people are trying to force it to change and using rather crude methods. 

177

I think we should ban WHITE breeders.  All they do is rape and oppress.

FIFY, A. Liberal.  What are you, racist against brown people and not just whitey?  I mean, my Gaia!

178

Ace's liver:

Given the same equipment and training, I think you would be surprised just how tough the Romans were. They lived and marched in truly horrible conditions and slept in close quarters. Still, they fought as effective, disciplined fighting units.

They had no need for DADT policies because homosexuality wasn't that big of a deal. Maybe people snickered a little, but it wasn't the panic-inducing issue it is for most straight people in our society.

179 Peter,
You are talking out of your ass.

I am linking a recent study on disgust.

Here is a quote:

"The results, said study leader David Pizarro, Cornell assistant professor of psychology, raise questions about the role of disgust -- an emotion that likely evolved in humans to keep them safe from potentially hazardous or disease-carrying environments -- in contemporary judgments of morality and purity."

http://tinyurl.com/qykr6c

It is an interesting study and actually shows conservatives are more disgusted by unnatural or filthy situations than liberals. You may enjoy it.

180 What does their sexuality have to do with whether or not they can kill, chemjeff? You want to talk about clothes and a "lisp." I want to talk about whether or not they can be taught to put the rounds on target.

"Openly flaunt?" What exactly, is that? I'm not sure I've paid enough attention to it to know what it is, or how it's a distraction. Seeing a gay guy walk doesn't usually turn my head. You can either march, or you can't.

I think you're hung up on some other cultural issue, but for the life of me, I can't really see what it is, or how it's relevant to the core mission of the nation's defense. I just get the sense that the vague goalposts are going to constantly be moved because there's no really good, solid reason why gays ought to be prevented from fighting and dying for their country.

181

Posted by: Mama AJ at June 19, 2009 02:42 PM (X6Zdh)

Posted by: chemjeff at June 19, 2009 02:50 PM (wy+AE)

chemjeff is spot-on, Mama.  All red-blooded males think about lesbians.  A lot.

182 You missed my point peter.  I willing to bet you missed my point on purpose.

Once we get past the TEH GAYS CAN SHOOT STRAIGHT TOO YOU FUCKING BIGOTS!!!111!!1 we realize that there are other issues that arise. 

Thomas Sowell talks extensively about thinking beyond stage one.  Perhaps Gabe Malor and many of you can pick up a few of his books and rad about it.

183 It wouldn't have bothered me back when I was in, and most of the people I knew wouldn't have cared.  ONly ones that would have were the filthy hicks who thought they were a lot more than they were as they were being cycled out for a "back injury" after a 3 mile run.

184

 disgust is an emotional response.

Lust is an emotional response. Sex for any purpose other then procreation is not logical. Homosexuality is emotional.

WTF is the point of saying disgust is an emotional response? An emotional response to an emotional act.

185 The focus needs to always be on fighting not addressing grievances, nor instituting  policies that will create more grievances.

Do you want your servicemen having one extra day of training, or would you rather them spend the day in a sexual orientation sensitivity session?

Focusing on this fringe nonsense means you lose site of what's important. Look at what its done to our colleges. You can take a myriad of homosexual/women studies classes and not take one economics course. Self flagellating interest groups at the expense of real training/education is bad policy.

186

Uniball:

I assure you I am not talking out of my ass... I am typing with my hands, actually. Also, your summary of the study makes my point for me. Disgust is a conditioned emotion. I will read it with pleasure.

Sam:

I am quite familiar with Sowell and respect him very much. I'm sure you are missing my point, so don't be so touchy you little bitch. : )

187 The Greek (much less Roman) comparison is not a good one.  Today's core concerns with regards to homosexuality in the military is exploitation within the context of subordinate relationships, development of individual relationships at the expense of unit cohesion, and the established chain of command versus a sexual hierarchy.  All of which are contra-indicated by the historic Greek example.

The Greek model was more like man-love Thursdays in A-stan; with older, dominant men abusing the young boys and doing so as a separate "relationship" from their normal marital "duties". 

The other argument I see here is the "if he can fight ..."  Our way of war is "if the small infantry unit can fight ..." not individual prowess.  If homosexuality in the ranks decreases unit efficiency then it cannot be allowed, period - do not make the military a social experiment during war -- wait for peacetime.

188

I think disgust is part of evolution.  If your genes have it that you think feces smells good, your genes are naturally selected out since you die before you breed.

Why do we like certain smells and tastes and others repulse us, even as babies?  Genetics and evolution play some part in us having the instincts we have. 

189

Also, cultures have a tendency to change over time. This is a natural process that Burke noted in several places. I think future generations will not have such a freaked out response to homosexuality as it becomes more of an everyday part of life.

Posted by: peter at June 19, 2009 02:42 PM (inezR)

So, you're saying my great great grandson will, inevitably, be a poofter?  Shit.  I was hoping for a great great great grandson...

190 You think this "risk" is lower because they're currently closeted rather than in the open?--Posted by: Purple Avenger

Are you arguing that the risks would NOT alter given an increased ratio?

@ 2:15 Homosexuals already enlisted and served as troopers, but certainly not as "gay" troopers, and they kept it to themselves so as to prevent it from becoming an issue.  The removal of DADT privacy notice may well attract gay rights activists into the service who would disrupt the long standing "balance" and protocol. The removal of DADT and subsequent increase in overt or aggressive homosexuals in the military would likely alter/lower the volunteer rate from heterosexuals contemplating military enlistment.

191

WTF is the point of saying disgust is an emotional response? An emotional response to an emotional act.

See #145.

192

Speaking objectively, this is not flamebait.

Bitching about doing laundry because one fell in love with a man--that's flamebait.

 

193 well, isn't the whole point of the exercise making the services accept me, not me conforming to the service.  one can serve and not make an issue of orientation or one can make one's orientation the whole point of serving. 

194

Herr Morganholz:

 

What I'm saying is that if your great great great grandson is a poofer, noone, including your great great grandson, will care very much. It won't be an issue.

 

195

Maybe it's just Friday talking, maybe the daily annoyances of the modern Major General I work under, but my view is "Fuck All Generals and The Political Bullshit That Spews From Their Mouths." 

I feel better now. 

As far as gays in the military go, eh, most of my female troops wound up getting pregnant a year after arriving on station.  At least teh gays wouldn't look ridiculous in their maternity BDUs and gym shoes.   

196

Competence should be the only standard for judging Soldiers.

I agree.

it wasn't the panic-inducing issue it is for most straight people in our society.

I know an awful lot of straight people.  Church people, to be exact.  And I think you'd find that most of them (us), though disagreeing with the homosexual lifestyle on a religious basis, also agree with the above statement.  Most of us are not panic-induced about it.  Most people would like it to become a non-issue.

197 What I'm saying is that if your great great great grandson is a poofer, noone, including your great great grandson, will care very much. It won't be an issue.


Where is Peter's Amazing (and Fabulous!) Time Machine?  Have you sold the plans to anyone?  I'm quite interested in acquiring the patent rights.

198 How does ass tasting help make us safer?

199 This is definitely flame bait.  On a Fuck-it-all Friday, throwing out a post on one of the few topics where moron passions run high, well, its just a hate crime, it is.*









*Diagram that POS sentence you grammar twats!

200 Posted by: General Zod at June 19, 2009 02:53 PM (XcsD4)

The problem is, I'm not advocating for banning gays from the military.  I think anyone who wants to serve should be able to serve - subject to the military's rules.  The military works because individuals lose their separate identities and become a collective fighting force.  I don't want to mess with that, because I want us to keep on having the most awesomest military ever.  Why change what's not broken?

201

What I'm saying is that if your great great great grandson is a poofer, noone, including your great great grandson,

Because history is linear and progressive and always evolves toward the more enlightened viewpoint.

Which is why I know homosexuality is wrong. The Dark Ages came after the Classical Period.

If you're so certain time will prove you right - stop arguing. It's unneccesary.

The 'inevitable' argument has always sucked.

202 Focusing on this fringe nonsense means you lose site of what's important. Look at what its done to our colleges. You can take a myriad of homosexual/women studies classes and not take one economics course.

NO KIDDING.  Whenever I see people go $40K into debt to walk out of college with a degree in "Womyn's Studies", I just want to weep.

203 Most people would like it to become a non-issue.

Exactly, waiting for the gay activists to drop demands for everyone else to change and let it be the non-issue represented by DADT.

204 If DADT is ended, what will gays do differently?  Different unis? Tattoed ads on their chest?  Count 1, 2, fabulous?  I don't see how they will be able to act differently.  So, what's the real point?

205

Been in the service, with two girls serving right now -- I could really care less about a person's sexual orientation as long as they are good, professional marines, soldiers, sailors, airmen.  There have always been homosexuals in the military; that's just been a fact of life -- the problem is that some of them are very unprofessional, undedicated, blue freaking falcons who are more into picking up on other folks in the ranks (especially officers or noncoms preying on enlisted).  This is a problem with straight military too, but the problems caused with a person who is gay becomes even more of a problem -- it's hard enough getting people to come forward on a sexual harassment issue, but getting a straight person to come forward after an incident with a homosexual?

This situation falls close to home: right now two gals who are lesbian got busted out in my daughter's unit (somebody probably ratted them out, as they followed the DADT to the letter and were pretty professional) -- since they were actually good soldiers who knew and did their jobs that pisses my daughter and others in the unit off; because on the flip side that unit also has one nasty noncom who has literally bragged about going after straight girls and acts extremely aggressive with them  (so she sure as hell isn't following DADT), and who doesn't do her job well but ass kisses great, and she's still there -- the fact that she's pogey bait is the main problem, but the sexual behavior she's pulling in the unit is making things worse.  And of course she's targeting jr. enlisted.

I don't know if repealing DADT would make that situation any better; I could see where it might make it worse though.

 

 

 

206 No way an Army full of flamers throws a mass hissy like they did for Prop 8. On the other hand, I bet military absentee ballots would get counted. Or, they will, once they're the majority of soldiers. Troops will quit - I would have.

207 The 'inevitable' argument has always sucked.

It's really just "give up" in disguise, no?


Given the massive influx of Latin Americans into the United States, and Muzzies into Europe, the Wonderful Ghey Future TM  may not be all that is now predicted.

208

Katya:

Agreed.

Still, I live in the South and have been thought  by some to be a closet homosexual because I like to read books and I don't watch NASCAR, although I don like football but don't like to talk stats.

On the other hand, the South in some quarters, like Savannah, is a perfect example of a live-and-let live mentality that doesn't make an issue out of it because all talk of sexuality is private and impolite. People know, but they don't make an issue that they know.

In some places, though, people get very freaked out at the very suggestion that someone might be gay, and sadly these tend to be very religious people. I'm religious, but my faith is not a judgmental faith. I reserve judgement for God and tend my own garden.

209

Entropy:

I am not a progressive, I am simply noting a trend and making a prediction. I feel the Dark Ages were a regression from the Classical period, not vice versa.

210 And shut the fuck up about the Romans. They were like 5'2" on average. I'd get my mass atrocity on against those pussies.

211

As far as gays in the military go, eh, most of my female troops wound up getting pregnant a year after arriving on station.  At least teh gays wouldn't look ridiculous in their maternity BDUs and gym shoes

Having a son-in-law in the Navy who wrecked my daughter's life with the above scenario, I strongly agree.  Being gay doesn't affect one's ability to serve.  Being pregnant does (not to mention the government paying for said pregnancy).

212

What I'm saying is that if your great great great grandson is a poofer, noone, including your great great grandson, will care very much. It won't be an issue.

Sorry, but I don't believe you.  In a limited sense, there may be a time when homosexuality doesn't have the same level of stigma, but most people care about whether or not they have children or whether their children have children.  People care about the propagation of their family, their genes, their culture.

213

 You libertarians should understand that, as far as the Left is concerned, it is never about "tolerance."  Never.  It is always about aggressive destruction. 

Those are uneasy about the Left's motives better follow their instincts.

214 the real point isn't DADT-it is using DADT backwards to social engineer in non-military society.  There isn't going to be a recruitment surge from SF, as people have pointed out already.  But the SF lawyers and non-military members will be there ready to litigate. 

215 I had family in the Air Force SF (Security Forces), it's common there for female members to be Lesbian. They would all be very open about it, no one really cared, but my family member would always complain about the obsession with "Gay" for these SFs. The tendency to focus their identity on their "Gayness" was had a negative effect on the morale of those around them.

20 years of social pressure to "be all the gay you can be," "gay makes you special," and overall gay culture tends to enforce this.

Besides the whole Gay Arab translator thing is such crap, that's who we want to be interpreters in the world's most gay-unfriendly culture and religion. 

216

So ... since not one anti-DADT proponent has answered the question of WHY we separate men and women in the military, I can only presume that you are arguing that straight men can reasonably be expected to ogle, lust after, and pursue women if they were allowed to shower with them  ...

But ghey men have some magical impulse for self-control that allows them to automatically turn off their sexual impulses when in the presence of other naked men ... including others who happen to be ghey.

Do I have that about right?

 

217 How about we compromise and let soldiers be openly gay only if they're in some sort of flame throwers unit?

218

Let open homosexuals serve in the military? Hot damn! Now we can have a fighting force as rough and tough as the Dutch Army! WOO HOO!

219 This is not your grandfather's US military. I think getting rid of DADT is the right thing to do.

220 But ghey men have some magical impulse for self-control


Yes, Gheys are well known to have exceptional abilities of sexual forbearance. 

221 In some places, though, people get very freaked out at the very suggestion that someone might be gay, and sadly these tend to be very religious people.

Yeah, difference between conservatives and liberals is that anti-gay religious conservatives may freak out, but anti-gay liberals (gangbangers) may just blow your head off (no pun intended).

222 This is not your grandfather's US military. I think getting rid of DADT is the right thing to do.

Well, that just satisfied my "what does Owen Kellogg think about this issue in general terms" itch.

223 I won't be safer, but I will feel fabulous about it.

224

Yes, Gheys are well known to have exceptional abilities of sexual forbearance. 

Now now, sir! Sarcasm has no place in polite and rational forums for debate such as these!

225

Well, that just satisfied my "what does Owen Kellogg think about this issue in general terms" itch.

Well.. it's useful for people who use information cascades to make up their minds.

Which is... most people.

226 @219 You couldn't carry my grandpa's jock. How about you show some fucking respect for veterans instead of dismissing their opinions with a wave (or SNAP)?

227 Peter,

I call you out for not answering a question and I am a "touchy little bitch".  Look who resorted to name calling... jeez.

Deflect and dissemble indeed, perhaps you would feel more at home on the Daily Kos or LGF.

228 One time when this came up, I argued to get rid of DADT. Bush was in office. Now that Obama is in office I have changed my mind, and I think we need to keep it. We don't need another special victim's greivance club or Gay Pride days on base. I don't care who fucks what -- truly I don't. I just don't want to know about it.

229

Yes, Gheys are well known to have exceptional abilities of sexual forbearance. 

Absolutely that's why there's no such things as parks that get the nickname "Pickle park" in any cities in the US.

230

Shit, to be honest, it's kind of annoying to work at, say, Wal-Mart with a flamboyant peter puffer.

It's not just the analphilic stuff...it's the need for attention and the extravagant manner in which they do anything, not to mention the demand for special treatment.  They feel they can say anything, but won't tolerate even a tiny slight of their fragile sensibilities.  I'm a big guy, so gay guys always felt they could hit me in the arm or mock heterosexuality around me.  Double standards suck teh balls.

But, I don't want to stereotype.

231 @219 You couldn't carry my grandpa's jock. How about you show some fucking respect for veterans instead of dismissing their opinions with a wave (or SNAP)?

I love this summbitch Empire of Jeff.  Not in a ghey way, of course, but still.

232 Compromise: give Teh Gheys either the Navy or the Air Force as their own service.  The Army and Marines all think they're gay anyway.

*awaits being flamed*

233

The economy is collapsing, the Norks are getting ready to throw a missile at Pearl Harbor, revolution in Iran, and this is what the MSM thinks is important.

Not just the MSM. But it offers insight into why the country is dying. It's dying because everybody looks at it as a giant Alladins Lamp which exists only to grant their wishes.

234 I love this summbitch Empire of Jeff.

If he likes you, he'll kill you last.

235 re: 46 Once again AoS gets more like LGF, with Gabriel leading the way. 

Allowing open homosexuals to serve fulfills the same agenda as allowing women in combat roles- it feminizes the military and alters gender roles.  The main motivation of men to perform honorably in combat has been to be seen as brave and honorable men among their buddies.  When it's something any lisping Bruce or push-up Susie can do it will cease to be anything manly or special.  The main motivation to fight will be gone.

Posted by: ccruse456 at June 19, 2009 01:44 PM (eAOc2)

Bah. I'm from Pennsylvania, the home state of Molly Pitcher, so I don't see how it feminizes men for women to be in combat. So, protecting your country will no longer motivate men to join the military if women are in uniform?

236

as far as the Left is concerned, it is never about "tolerance."

Not to mention the fact that nobody in modern day America knows the correct definition of the word "tolerance".

237

Sam:

I honestly don't know what the hell you are talking about. I've stated my points clearly, and I'm not sure what the question is that I am supposedly deflecting.

The little bithch part was a joke, hence the :  )

Jeeeze!

238 @228

Exactly.  It would just turn into another way to blame The (Straight) Man for keeping them down - didn't get promoted?  Didn't get your first choice of MOS?  Got written up for a haircut...again?  Must be because you're gay. 
I actually think DADT is too lenient.  I was in long before it became policy; I know there were plenty of gays in the military back then, but none of them seemed to wear it as a chip on their shoulder.  Now, it's just like a dare...come out without actually "coming out", and dare someone to rat you out.

239

I think everyone; men, women, gays, straights and the curious, should keep all sexual orientation and practices non of anyone's business.  Save it for R&R.  All sexual harrassment should be disciplined.  This is supposed to be an equal country.  All rules should apply to everyone. 

As a BTW: all women serving should be put on mandatory birth control.  Anyone who thinks differently is not dealing with rationality and reality.

240

Dave J, you know...nah, you're right.  In the right light, the new AF ABUs do have a slight pink tint to them. Some of the best female officers I've known have been, to be fair, lesbianic.  Even handed, competent, consistent, but definitely lesbianic. 

I also don't want to say anything unkind about Marines as I find them to be very nice people.  But if I never have to work for another Army general again...

241

I understand young men would be quite unhappy about this new inclusion, and I bet they would police these gays' actions in the common areas. 

 

You mean they would feel free to discriminate against a protected minority? You have some funny ideas about how the world works.

242

Sam,

I re-read your question and realize you wanted me to comment on sleeping arrangements. I sort of did that in 165.

If you went to summer camp, you probably bunked with several homosexuals.

 

243 What about band camp?

244

"If you went to summer camp, you probably bunked with several homosexuals."

What about band camp?

If you went to band camp, you probably ARE homosexual.

245

Isn't it interesting that the gay agenda preaches tolerance when it's really acceptance they're demanding?

What else would you call it when you force a serviceman to shower with and bunk next to an openly gay man?

Oh, but gays NEVER hit on straights. Nope ... it's like they know who's straight and a switch goes off that makes them automatically NOT attracted to them.

The guy who chatted me up and ogled my junk while I was changing in a gym locker room?

Just being friendly.

You know, I always approach guys I don't know and try to make small talk with them when they're naked.

Totally normal.

The wrestlers at my college who used to complain abotu the gay dudes timing their locker room trips to when the wrestling team was showering?

Imagining things.

Bigots.

And even if the gay fellas really WERE eyeing them up when they weren't wearing clothes ... hey get over it. It's YOUR problem ... not the guy with his eyes crawling all over you.

People who'd rather not be forced to deal with that kind of thing while they're serving their country?

Crybabies.

246

I was just trying to go with the subtle angle there, Dave.

247

Well, I think we've settled it.  Keep DADT.

248

Given the same equipment and training, I think you would be surprised just how tough the Romans were. They lived and marched in truly horrible conditions and slept in close quarters. Still, they fought as effective, disciplined fighting units.

They had no need for DADT policies because homosexuality wasn't that big of a deal. Maybe people snickered a little, but it wasn't the panic-inducing issue it is for most straight people in our society.

 

I don't know where you get your infomation but it's wrong. Homosexuality was "that big of a deal" in the Roman army. Things only changed in the late Empire, as standards fell in every aspect of life. I'm not sure that the fall of the Roman Empire is the period in history we should try to ape.

249

If you went to summer camp, you probably bunked with several homosexuals.

Bible college too.

250 I'm not sure that the fall of the Roman Empire is the period in history we should try to ape.

Too late.

251

Isn't it interesting that the gay agenda preaches tolerance when it's really acceptance they're demanding?

"Acceptance" is the modern day defition of "tolerance".

252 I see gay people.

253 Morrissey is a Frumian squish. One of the problems with Hot Air these days is the lack of a conservatve voice there since Preson left.

254

"If you went to summer camp, you probably bunked with several homosexuals."

If a woman has ever worn a low cut dress, she's had her tits ogled surreptitously by men. Therefore, men should feel free to do this openly whenever they please.

255 What's your problem with me looking at your tits? Ain't like it hasn't happened before. Lighten up.

256
Klaus Fucks worked on the Manhattan project in Los Alamos. He had access to the most sensitive details of American Atomic bomb research. Unbeknown to his colleagues, he did not share their ideas about what was right and proper and as a result he transferred Atomic secrets to Russia.

Enemy soldiers can also shoot straight. If I have to fight along side someone, I want to believe that they share my ideas of right and wrong, and believe in what we are fighting for and why.

If they think having sex with animals or children is okay, I have to wonder in what OTHER ways will they differ from my (and the common) ideas of what is right and wrong. 


Yes, it's important that soldiers can shoot straight, but it is MORE important that they are on the same side.  

257

I was in the USMC and had many encounters with homo activities.  The sex part in and of itself is not the real issue, other than doing it in front of straights who do not want to see it.  The big issue is the emotional bonds that can form between gay/les couples that can work to undermine the military structure.  Imagine working in a combat unit with a man and wife team who were the top sargeant and the gunny of your unit.  You would be without any recourse if something came up and you needed to speak with someone about your problem.  Imagine a foxhole situation where two lovers are not together and an attack came that might be fatal to all.  Would they remain at their posts as required for military discipline or would they seek each other out.  Would they bring their sex life into the morale of the unit when they thought they could get away with it?  I had a friend who was a member of mensa and had a PhD who could not stay from the bath houses or bus stations due to his libido.  He was arrested one night in a bus station men's room. 

I was the OOD one night and had to go to the womens barracks for a problem.  When the female sargeant on duty led me into the darkened barracks where all of the female marines were sleeping and turned on the lights, it looked like a Mexican kitchen and the roach race!  So many women were in other beds that the straight ones must have been sick from the noise!

If this type of issue doesn't bother you people then maybe you should join the Dutch army.

258 That's right, I did promise to kill you last, toby. I LIED. ***drops toby into ravine, his screams dwindling behind him***

259 "When the female sargeant on duty led me into the darkened barracks where all of the female marines were sleeping and turned on the lights, ...  So many women were in other beds..."

If they were hot, it's not only totally OK, but should be required.  :-p

260 On the eve of Pride Week in Toronto (we'll have some our 'out' military in the parade), let's just remember this is not about tolerance, a 'live and let live' agreement: it's about acceptance and celebration by society as a whole. 
Before Canada went down this path, I knew a gay couple (they came to my wedding).  They were very much about being left alone to live their life as they saw fit, and that's what they said they wanted for themselves and what they saw to be the outcome of the gay rights movement -- that's hardly what we got up here.  It's making it's way into the public school classrooms (and the Catholic schools, because they receive public funding), the churches, the political parties, etc.
It's not about sex per se.  It's about an end to moral standards, a public ethos in which desire is the sole acceptable validation for what one wants regardless of the cost to the society, to its children, etc.  And you dare not approve of all this, question the "science" or point out inconvenient facts about the gay lifestyle, or the basic mutability of human sexuality (I've known one person who, while in a marriage, declared her lesbian identity, was facilitated by her pastor and friends to "experiment" while her longsuffeirng husband and children looked on, and then, two years later realized she wasn't gay after all -- my little community's version of Anne Heche!).
I can't say as I know how best to reach an accommodation with the LGBTQ community, but they are not looking for accommodation, they want to win.

261 I'm trying to see the benefit of ending DADT... got it! Ya know the article in the sidebar about the new air-droppable bicycle the Marines are testing? Well, now they can shave a couple more pounds off its weight, since they won't need the seat.

262 Happy days, happy days, happy days, finally Gabe enlisted! No? Hmmm...

Listen, idiot, it's not about shooting straight. Combat troops - infantry - spend 99.9% of their enlistment not shooting people and neither the air force or navy ever really gets to shoot. So when we - those of us on the enlisted side - say "Hey, you know what? Fuck off with your stupid shit already," you'll understand that we mean it from the heart.

If you put sexuality into the mix you have discipline problems, and so you'll lose - to not getting blown away but to bullshit regulations - good Marines and soldiers, including experienced NCOs that know what they are doing and will save lives, or others with crucial skills like (Da-da-dunn!) fucking translators, the majority of which, despite what you read in the San Franscisco Post, are not gay.

And harassment (just to take one facet; this thing is a goddamn diamond) goes all sorts of stupid ways, which to type-A personality alpha males is frustrating and infuriating, because, hey, harassing and violence is a good Friday night!

For instance, your new pink recruits could actually get sexually harassed, instead of harassing other people. Ever think of that? Hell, you don't even have to be attracted to someone to sexually-harass them, as the wasted hundreds of man hours of my life, sitting, listening to bullshit indoctrination attest: that 'hostile' environment garbage. In which case, you're just giving more chances to destroy careers, rob the Corps and the rest of experience they need (at a crucial moment, between two fucking wars, mind you), and administratively kill whole units.

Why? Why is my privacy so under-fucking-valued and your goddamn flambuoyant openness so overvalued? Can't you just leave men sweating and bleeding alone for one fucking minute?

263 toby928
"Did minorities perceive that there was favoritism?  Or worse, were there cases where white soldiers thought that there was favoritism?  If so, was this perception disruptive of cohesion?"

Can't say.  My platoon Sgt was black.  Never had any problems with him.  You stayed squared away, he stayed off your back.  You made excuses, he came down on you.  And he didn't care about the color of your skin.  Did have one black guy who came in with the 'man always keeps us down' attitude.  Guy was a lazy worthless fuck.  He lasted about 1 week and got shipped out.  I DEROS'd in late '69 about the time that some bad shit was happening in some units.  Far as I could tell (personal opinion), that stuff wasn't happening in combat units.

264 Here is a pic of, I think, Marines sleeping in Afghanistan.

http://tinyurl.com/l897bz

If one of those soldiers were 'out and proud', nobody would be happy sleeping next to him.

265 Had two friends in the Marines who were gay, one of whom lived in fear that others would find out and kick the shit out of him. Never bothered me either way. They were both excellent Marines. However there were people who would have had severe problems with the whole thing. I can see post #257's point about combat etc.... Tough call . Hey the Marines, really don't want you to be MARRIED. But i think it should be up to the individual, sexuality is nobodys business but your own. Make it everyones and you have to take the consequences, really tough decision. Some guys really would have a problem takin a shower with a gay guy. In the service it happens all the time.

266 One more point, this could cause major chaos if gay rights become a military issue. Then you could  see some REAL ass kickin goin on. One  more way the left could infiltrate with an agenda and cause havoc. (I'm not sayin gays are on the left) Just that like disease the left takes every oppurtunity to contaminate and destroy. Lots of them HATE the military, as you know!

267 Are you arguing that the risks would NOT alter given an increased ratio?

What makes you think the ratio would change?  There are gays in today.  Allowing them to be in and out isn't likely to cause a sudden flood of out gays to enlist.

268 I love how middle-aged men and guys who have never served and who would never serve want to decide how the military handles an issue that makes the majority of 18-19 year old immature guys bonkers. The military has a hard enough time turning mama's boys and the padded playground set into men as it is, they don't need to have openly gay gays creating even more dissension. Besides, I've not seen an openly gay person who can keep from pushing it in everyone's face that he/she is gay. Being gay is the most important thing in life for them and that doesn't work in the military.

I don't give a damn what someone's orientation is. I either like them or I don't. But, if they start making a big deal about that orientation, I can guarantee you, they'll fast move into the don't like column. Not because they are gay, but because they lack the class to keep their sexual preferences private, where they belong.  It is none of my business and I really really really resent it when they try to make it my business.

269 Sara:
Most gays I've know are not of the 'in your face variety'.  Matter of fact, that type pisses them off as well.  Unfortunately the MSM caters to the loud mouths.  An then there are gays like the one who soaked the military out of a 4 year education at West Point, then declared he was gay.  And then got upset when the gov't sued him for the education expense.   Said they were 'picking on him'.

270

Having a son-in-law in the Navy who wrecked my daughter's life with the above scenario, I strongly agree.  Being gay doesn't affect one's ability to serve.  Being pregnant does (not to mention the government paying for said pregnancy).

Posted by: katya at June 19, 2009 03:14 PM (qFlRO)

Wha? So your daughter had no say in it? He just hyponotized her with his cock and then boom, out pops a baby, pardon, a life wrecking entity 9 months later?

271 Yeah, Johnny, I don't like those kind of statements either.  In fact, IMO, women are more in control of whether a child is conceived.

272

Wha? So your daughter had no say in it? He just hyponotized her with his cock and then boom, out pops a baby, pardon, a life wrecking entity 9 months later?

I don't know about you, but that's how I roll.

273 248

In the roman legions a man in his adulthood who lay with another man in adulthood was punished with the fustuaria.

If you are judged to have lain with another man in his maturity, you are held bound at the path looking towards the altar and headquarters along the via principalis.

the entire legion is aligned on the sides, and each member of the legion must strike you at least once.  If you are dead before you make it to the altar, your body is dragged along the via principalis so that every member of the legion took an active role in your death. 

If you survive to the alter, you are held in place, as you are struck with the base of the standard (I forget what it's called in latin, the pole wraped in reads) by the centurians, and then the final blow for all the legion to see was delivered by the tribune.

Once you were dead, you dragged to the . . .I don't know the roman reference, the latrine/jacks and left to rot in the entire legions waist.

So yeah, in the days of the romans homosexuality was a big deal.

274 I think HM said it already in #1. This is a priority? Hey ignore all the other shit going on in the world, this is a military priority at this time. Really? Iraq, Afghanistan, worn out gear, cutbacks, training, deployment cycles, veteran's benefits, survivor benefits, acquisitions, future threats, none of these things are really important, let's concentrate making sure troops can suck cock without getting in trouble. How did this fucktard make general?
I got out awhile ago, but the grunts were not a gay friendly environment, guess it's different in other types of units.

275 Quote:  The Greeks and Romans seemed to do Ok....

Actually, Homosexuality was a death penalty offense in the Roman Legions in Republican times. In the Late Empire, the Empire was Christian and the troops were mainly barbarian recruits, so there's little to look for there.

It 'worked' for the Greeks because they were all homosexuals, it was part of the norm.

276 Many Romans assumed the grecian model of love if I recall.  It wasn't an agreement by adults, but more of a sitatuation between a Mentor and a student.  There was the older more knowledgeable male (though those relationships could last throughout life) and the younger catamite/a top and a bottom.  There were distinct differences between the pitcher and the catcher, the catamite, the bottom was not judged, but it was the top who was granted respect.

Of course that is grotesquely simple.

277 "The Greeks and Romans seemed to do OK. It has always struck me as being distincltly anti-Western to make such a big deal about homosexuality."

Sure, if treating women like shit chattel (as every male-homosexuality-promoting culture does) is "Western".

"It was said of Julius Caesar that he was every wife's husband and every husband's wife, or something to that effect."

Those were the slurs of his political opponents.

"If DADT is ended, what will gays do differently?"

Form a sectarian clique.

""When the female sargeant on duty led me into the darkened barracks where all of the female marines were sleeping and turned on the lights, ...  So many women were in other beds..."

If they were hot, it's not only totally OK, but should be required.  :-p"

I'll be in my (unisex) bunk.

278 Compromise: give Teh Gheys either the Navy or the Air Force as their own service.  The Army and Marines all think they're gay anyway.

*awaits being flamed*

Posted by: Dave J. at June 19, 2009 03:36 PM (naTdL)

Not our fault you guys decided to crawl around in the muck and mud for weeks on end while we got 3 hots and a clean bed every night.  Plus new and exciting port visits on occasion.

now the flyboys on the other hand.....

279 >>I love how middle-aged men and guys...<<

Your piercing, unassailable intellect is impressive. Zod will permit you to bear a child for him. That spawn will be named Jer-E Springer. You will suckle him on your bile until he is of a suitable age to destroy a planet.

280

When do we judge others by their behavior?  Duh, ever heard of conduct unbecoming?

Why do you think we dismiss teachers who engage in sex with their students?

Why do you think on security clearances they ask questions regarding debt, gambling, unsavory friends or activities?

No military has tolerated queers without ultimately collapsing.  No wonder Thebes was crushed or so many European militaries couldn't fight off a determined attack by a pack of Brownies.

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282 This is a cold, dead thread, but I have to contribute, and defy an argument that has been made and not addressed.

I support DADT for reasons I haven't seen articulated here.

I have enormous respect for military service members; I have more to lose than most if we fail against Islamic extremism.  However, I have a modicum less respect for those who would not serve or re-enlist because of gays in the military for the following reason:

'I would rather forsake everything America has accomplished and for which she stands than serve in a unit with a queer.'

My bitterness over this argument is probably personal and emotional, but the argument is a touch horrifying.  I suppose I'm guilty of having a Platonic pure form vision of selfless soldiers battling for American supremacy and freedom.

Now I've learned that as many as 80% of our soldiers have the following priorities, in order:  Not to serve alongside openly gay soldiers.  To protect and preserve everything America stands for. 

That's hurtful, and more to the point shameful.  This is perhaps the one argument that gay service members can win hands down.  I know from my reading of gay former soldiers that they hide and even abandon their personal lives in order to fight for something greater than themselves.

They not only fight a war of aggression against America's enemies, but a war of intelligence against their peers and superiors.  My understanding is that there is a powerful extra-military culture amongst service members that pushes for a normal, stable life with a wife/girlfriend/children.  The queers serving have to obfusticate/dissemble/lie in order to fit in.

Many of them have crappy private lives and abandon their own personal codes of ethics in order to serve something above their own petty existence.  I can guarantee that this hurts them, and their morale, and that they truly are offering everything they have to serve American ideals.

Can you say the same when you would rather be a civilian than fight alongside them?

283

Wha? So your daughter had no say in it? He just hyponotized her with his cock and then boom, out pops a baby, pardon, a life wrecking entity 9 months later?

Sorry I wasn't clear on the situation and wish I'd gotten back sooner.  No, what happened was, 2 months after my daughter was married, her sailor husband got a fellow sailor pregnant and decided to leave my daughter for his new family. 

284 259 "When the female sargeant on duty led me into the darkened barracks where all of the female marines were sleeping and turned on the lights, ...  So many women were in other beds..."

If they were hot, it's not only totally OK, but should be required.  :-p

Posted by: What all the male Morons are thinking but haven't said yet at June 19, 2009 04:31 PM (naTdL)

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286 DADT has always been one of the most stupid policies for a military that has to prepare for fighting a major war could use.   God I hate democrats.  One of the reasons I hate them is they push me into supporting brain dead republicans.  Why did those dumb fucks think we need a draft board in a era of DADT?  All you need to keep from being drafted is a condom, a digital camera, and 30 seconds with another guy.   Send a picture of yourself sucking a dick (with condom) to the local draft board and get out of the draft.   No need for running to Canada or shooting off a big toe.    If Bush had simply fixed this stupid DADT policy from Clinton it would have shocked and shut up a lot of liberals.  Not to mention fixing a dangerous policy that would have ended up with blown up draft boards if we ever need them.

I still love the idea of the the big anti-war, anti-draft protest march.   They could call it "The Great American Suck-off Peace Rally"  20,000 guys at a time get out of the draft.

287

I'm not really passionate about this, one way or another.  I'm more unsettled by women in combat.  And yes, that is partly based on what "others" (our enemies) think of it.  I just am not crazy about more of our fine ladyfolk exposed to capture by rape-victim stoners.

Flame away!

Posted by: logprof at June 19, 2009 01:25 PM (TEr8e)

 

Here's your flame:

I'm a twice-over war veteran. I don't recall you being anywhere around when the shit hit the fan. Nice arm chair criticism, though.

By the way, documentation of individual and organized female warriors has existed since time immemorial. Deborah (in the bible), Bodicea, and modern day:

http://tinyurl.com/kpzvsw,

http://tinyurl.com/ckfxyq

http://tinyurl.com/dfv2rz

You can go back to playing with yourself, now.

288 DADT was after my time, but it's still a reasonable compromise.  I'm sure I served with some gays, but they kept quiet about it, and I wasn't looking for them either. 

Hard and unfair as it might seem, it's not about you.  The Marines had a trite slogan for everything.  Mission over men is the one that applies here.  The military isn't a social experiment or a microcosm of society.  It's unfair, get over it.  There is no draft and nobody forces you to join.

What benefit is there to ending DADT for the military?  So far, I've heard the blackmail angle.  I'm  not convinced that is reason enough to change.

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