1 I'd like to hear Romney respond to this assertion...Mitt? Are you out there?

2 See, this is what I don't get.  If Obamacare is so fucking awesome, then why not make it voluntary to join?  Make it so that someone realizes it's a winner and signs up, not by forcing them to pay a fine if they don't.  That's just street-thuggery, which is what I expect from this administration. 

3 Shut up! I'm hoarding "FOUR MORE YEARS!" jokes for Romney's 2012 campaign, and you're queerin' my deal.

4

See PA, because of people like you, welfare monsters don't have the latest 60in high def tv or the new Mercedes sedan.  Think of the children!!!

I would cry if it wasn't so bad.

5 EC

Your problem is that you're thinking like a rational person. Keep that up and you'll never understand the progressives. Freedom is dangerous and unfair, you see.

6 Fuck 'em.

7 The libs want to spread humanity out into a thin film.

8 I don't know. Playing devil's advocate: you pay cash for your health care until you can't. That didn't used to be a concern for society: if people couldn't afford a doctor they died. Somewhere from then to know it was decided that that was unacceptable. Risk became socialized and when risk is socialized, restrictions on freedom become necessary.

I'm not saying any of that is a good thing, but that is the society we currently live in, so I don't see that much of a difference between this and mandatory auto-insurance —or seat-belt requirements for that matter.

9 I keep seeing "single payer" touted as being the solution to reduce costs and why the Government needs to jump in.

If "single payer" is such a great administrative solution to cut costs - then why doesn't Congress grant the current insurers an anti-trust exemption so they can merge their front end processes.  That way we get the savings of "single payer" without the Government bloat.  Congress would still get to play around the edges because they control the issuance of the anti-trust exemption, the Executive branch is SOL (oh well), and their is no major turmoil in people's health care.

and Purple - you know the answer to your question -- the insurers need participation by the young and healthy to support the others.  It's just another means of transferring wealth around.

10 Actually, I think it's worse.

Any plan is going to have a 'public option'. On it's face, that option is going to be 'cheaper'. Once businesses start shedding health coverage forcing people onto the public program...

Let teh awesome begin!

11

Mandatory liability insurance doesn't protect you, it protects the guy you hit with your car.

Seat belt requirements are ludicrous for anyone over 18.  First, I don't endanger anyone else by not wearing my seatbelt.  Second, I can ride a 450# 180 horsepower motorcycle with no helmet, but I'll get a ticket if I'm in my 6,000 lb, 300 horsepower F150 with no seatbelt.  Hmmm.

Grim

12 The only thing mandatory should be "organ donor" when you get your motorcycle endorsement and some mechanism to get bad (not just drunks or reckless kids) off of the roads.

13 "Mandatory liability insurance doesn't protect you, it protects the guy you hit with your car."

It protects both, but that's the point. When risk is socialized, other people have an interest in what you do. This is the reasoning behind seatbelt laws. They're not designed to save you, they're designed to save taxpayer money in the ER room.

Again, I'm not saying that's a good thing, but rather that the tradeoff for the socialzation of risk is always authoritarianism of some sort.

14 BREAKING NEWS ON JOHN BATCHELOR:  tHE TWO aMERICAN JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN CONVICTED AND SENTENCED TO 12 YEARS IN THEIR MOST NOTORIOUS PRISON.

15 Health Fascism?  Awesome.

Obama will take care of us cradle grave and determine when we die.  He's sort of God that way.

16 You want to know what some of the smarter European companies that want to attract and keep good employees are starting to do?  They are using their own money to open private clinics so they don't have to settle for the shitty "free" heath care.  Companies that aren't big enough to to this on their own often pool resources with other companies.

17 Frankly, I'm not against forcing everyone to have insurance, or be self insured, or have a high deductible.  Because, when you show up in the ER without insurance, you're still going to get treatment, and everyone is going to pay for that.

What I am against is the government taking over insurance.  Governments suck at controling costs.

18 Is it "socialization of risk" or just good old-fashion transfer of wealth from one group (the employed) to another (the elderly) who votes more often using typical government strongarm tactics.

19 Lemmiwinks, cool (got a link) - housing is next (arcologies anyone)

20 Jean,

The elderly already have insurance through medicare, and thus this proposal would not be directed at them. It's primarily directed at young people who are no longer on their parents insurance, but don't have jobs that provide them with insurance of their own.

21

Any plan is going to have a 'public option'. On it's face, that option is going to be 'cheaper'. Once businesses start shedding health coverage forcing people onto the public program...

That's the gorilla in the living room. No one ever talks about this. Oh, you'll hear Barry talking about "keeping your coverage" if you don't want to take part in the gubmint plan. Good luck with that. If you think the company you work for is going to keep offering health insurance to you and your family if this crap passes, you're a fucking idiot. They'll throw you to the curb on this issue so fast it'll make your head spin.

22 Jason, when I was young and healthy I bought my own insurance and dumped the employer's benefits into a 401K (cafeteria plan). It was cheap, cheaper then the company stuff and served me well.  Is it really a plan for young people who are irresponsible and likely to get hurt?  Because, that's another group of likely voters for one party, and they vote twice - sometimes in several states.

23 Lemmiwinks, cool (got a link) - housing is next (arcologies anyone)

Don't have a link.  One of my old bosses was telling us about this phenomenon after he got back from a business trip to Germany.

24 Jalech, isn't that what happened when Hawaii offered free children's medical coverage?

25 How ironic is it that the Dems are pro-choice until it comes to healthcare?

26 " (Bloomberg) -- North Korea sentenced two U.S. journalists to 12 years of labor for illegally entering the country and for the “crime they committed against the Korean nation,” the official Korean Central News Agency said."

27

Jalech, isn't that what happened when Hawaii offered free children's medical coverage?

I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. Why would a company pay for it if the gubmint offers a "plan"?

28 Gotta go, need a less serious overnighter - hard to drink and argue health care policy.

29 BHO and the left are banking on the fact that almost no one is capable of thinking outside the box on health care any longer.

Jason @8 has it almost right. People didn't actually die before comprehensive health insurance came along, for the most part they either purchased, or received as an employment benefit, catastrophic (aka "major medical") insurance.

Comprehensive health insurance has created skyrocketing health care costs by destroying the relationship between the provider and the consumers of health care goods and services. That market is completely broken and prices rise, open-loop. Ponzi schemes are illegal and comprehensive health insurance should be too.

Those skyrocketing costs are now used as an excuse to socialize all health care. Effectively, that's a statutory requirement to keep perpetuate what caused the problem in the first place. That'll be the quickest way to national bankruptcy.

The conservative alternative to this madness should address the cause: comprehensive health insurance.

30 Throw some tort reform in there, too.

31 Oh, and thrown in there as a bonus at the bottom:

Obama’s own proposal would set a 28 percent cap on tax deductions for items such as mortgage interest, investment expenses and charitable gifts for Americans in the two highest tax brackets, which would be 36 percent and 39.6 percent under his proposals. Without the cap, they would be able to deduct 36 cents and 39.6 cents on the dollar for those expenses, respectively.

That would basically sink most arts organizations in this country, and kick a lot of good charities right in the nuts. Terrific.

Obviously, this all hits close to home as I'm an opera singer trying to get into med school...

32 We are no longer free citizens, folks. We are to be slaves.

"You have your three hots and a cot, now STFU." --Your Leftoid Masters.

33 Goy,

Good point. I've seen some interesting statistics on how cash-based areas of health care (i.e. elective cosmetic surgeries like breast implants and lasik) have become cheaper and cheaper since their introduction...the way most products do in a market economy. On the other hand, all other areas of health care under comprehensive insurance continue to have their costs skyrocket.

34

"The women can't appeal as they were tried in North Korea's highest court where decisions are final.

The sentences are much harsher than what many observers had hoped for. The trial was not open to the public or to foreign observers." (From WSJ with the AP credited)

35 The problem with the Democrats is that they don't understand the most basic principle of economics: scarcity. There is only a certain amount of total health care that can be offered, and I think we are close to that now. In order for more people to receive care, the average person must receive less care.

Of course the only way their asinine plan will come close to being cost effective is if the only people on the plan are healthy to begin with. They will use very little care, and the plan will seem to be a success. When they inevitably expand the plan to incorporate the more unhealthy demographics, the cost overruns will be catastrophic.

36

26 " (Bloomberg) -- North Korea sentenced two U.S. journalists to 12 years of labor for illegally entering the country and for the “crime they committed against the Korean nation,” the official Korean Central News Agency said."

 

Too bad they didn't cover Iraq when S. Hussein was running the place.  I'll write.  Anyone know if they're Camel or Marlboro smokers?

37

The sentences are much harsher than what many observers had hoped for. The trial was not open to the public or to foreign observers." (From WSJ with the AP credited)

I wonder if they'll let me serve a week or two and then free them like Iran did with that female journalist. If that happens, it's obvious this shit is a coordinated effort to humiliate the United States. Not that I feel humiliated, but that's probably how they see it in the halls of power in Iran and North Korea.

If that doesn't happen, Lisa Ling might have to assemble Attack Force: The View in order to storm the beaches of Pyongyang.

38 Re comprehensive health insurance: Now, we have high deductibles and copays AND high premiums. Worst of both worlds.

It really is cheaper to buy only catastrophic coverage, and sock away the difference into a medical savings account. Until the Leftoid Masters take that option away, too.

But don't worry, General SOG (Barry "Sort Of God" Obama) will fix all that, my children. He will stand over us, godlike, as Evan Thomas assures us, and golden showers of his beneficence will land on our heads.

39

catastrophic (aka "major medical") insurance.

That is what health insurance used to be for.  Getting hit by a bus, not the sniffles.  What a disaster this is in the making... 

40 Comply or be punished? Considering much of our health care system is financially impaired due to illegal aliens sucking the system dry with their Unlimited ER Benefit Program, where was this intolerance for noncompliance 20 years ago? Where was it every damn time Obama and the rest of the left refused to vote for compliance on illegal immigration?

Are you telling me Obama and the left only punishes noncompliance when it's a white guy not following the law? Damn, if that were the case, you'd be telling me next that Obama nominated a anti-white, anti-male racist for the Supreme Court.

"Hang Whitey!" -- Democratic Party poster, 2009.

41 I wonder if they'll let me = I wonder if they'll let them 

42 Jason,

Exactly. I spent a year working on systems at CIGNA. It made me physically ill to witness the ungodly level of HIPAA violations, shoddily designed and maintained systems, offshoring of data management (how does that work with HIPAA, exactly?), life-sucking bureaucracy, anti-consumer/anti-customer mentality and all-around opulence of the company environment. I can't believe any of the other CHCI companies are any better.

These economic black holes need to be rolled back to about 1960 or so, where only high-deductible, catastrophic policies are available.

Also, we need to get employers out of the business of funding health care benefits - move their administration to local municipalities to take advantage of much larger actuarial group sizes (they already have policies and facilities in place for collecting funds - e.g., property tax, etc.).

43 Along with goy's note:

A mandatory 5% tax-free (compounding, low risk) investment in a health savings account gets someone who earns minimum wage for their entire working life $200,000 in the account. That's approaching median total lifetime expenditures right there. At -minimum wage-.

Along with the other safety nets, the whole thing is -yours-. Inheritable and everything.

Additionally: Prohibit the insurance companies from undercutting "private pay." I've personally been billed $450 for an Xray where (after fixing the paperwork) my insurance (and I -combined) only paid out $43. That one imbalance right  there is the entire crux of -why- there's such strong incentive to get on insurance.

44 Jason, you are right.  Anyone who does anything that might cost "The Taxpayer" money should be stopped from doing it or required to post a bond, set up insurance, or be taxed to cover it.  Obviously one no longer has the option to sign out of the welfare state, so we might as well get used to being told what to do "for the good of yourself and others."
Examples...let's see--most of the severe cases of head trauma that come into emergency rooms (paralysis, coma) are from car accidents.  Therefore people should be required to wear helmets in their cars to reduce this health care cost.  Right?  If not, why not?  This opens up whole new areas for public policy, really: "inadequate personal care and disregarding system costs."
Where else can we go with this idea that our bodies belong to other people...hmm, how about a government organization to rank food, and tax those that do not meet health guidelines, such as sodas... or avocados... whole milk... the unspeakable horror of pizza.  I mean these things might eventually cost us health care money!  You can't let people's greedy, selfish choices cost the system money, can you? 
Your food. 
Your lifestyle. 
Your recreational activities.
All these things will be fair game once the government or other busybodies can say "this will cost the taxpayer money!"
But enjoy your "free" heath care, and don't worry--the scars from the chains will be fully treated under the plan.  It might take a few months to get in to see anyone, though.
(And that hollow laugh you hear?  It's the smokers and motorcycle riders and others who rode that thin end of the "public cost" wedge into pariahdom.  They welcome you to their world.  Now that the wedge is getting wider and moving faster, they're be plenty of room for everyone.  We are all sinners, now.)

45 I am 45, and will have to work until 67 for full benefits. I think what is going to happen, is that the retirement age will keep getting bumped upwards until most people start dying while employed, thus freeing up a  lot of money for Social Security.

46

Also, we need to get employers out of the business of funding health care benefits - move their administration to local municipalities to take advantage of much larger actuarial group sizes (they already have policies and facilities in place for collecting funds - e.g., property tax, etc.).

That'll never work, and here's why: what happens when a local municipality encompasses, shall we say, a large "disadvantaged" population? You know, the places where the ER is hopping all night long with gunshot wounds, drug overdoses, and other assorted mishaps. You can bet your bottom dollar that some politician is going to start saying it's racist that they're not getting special treatment. Checkmate.

47 - That'll never work, and here's why: what happens when a local municipality encompasses, shall we say, a large "disadvantaged" population?

Simple. Only those who pay into the plan are covered by the plan. ER issues are already covered under EMTALA. Primary care must be given under certain situations. That will continue and be reimbursed by a separate, state-level fund that gets 5% of what employers USED to pay for medical insurance policies. All other health care is either paid for out of pocket or handled on the high-deductible, catastrophic plan basis.

As for shyster attorney politician wannabes... isn't it time we stopped compromising with every asshole that comes along screaming "racist!"?

48 My thoughts are, if you can't afford health insurance or your own health costs with cash, you can die. Welcome to life, it's a bitch. Got a cold? Go buy some fucking nyquil. Allergies? Benadryl. Don't go to the ER and expect to get treated for free.

Every job I've ever had has offered me insurance, and I'm only 24. It's ridiculous to try to claim there are soooooo many companies that don't offer it to their employees. Get a better job and stop complainng.

49

Can you see this?

http://tinyurl.com/38j4rk

God, I wish I could be in Canada right now.

50

As for shyster attorney politician wannabes... isn't it time we stopped compromising with every asshole that comes along screaming "racist!"?

Oh, I agree. But what's the chance that'll happen? As long as someone benefits from it, the practice will continue unchecked.

51 - As long as someone benefits from it, the practice will continue unchecked.

Well then perhaps it's time to start ensuring that few, if any, benefit from it, huh.

52

Well then perhaps it's time to start ensuring that few, if any, benefit from it, huh.

What would you recommend? I know what I think, but I'm on enough government lists already.

53 For those of us who already have insurance through an employer, we will pay our "base premium" (as many of us now do, on top of what the employer pays) PLUS a "premium premium" to cover those who cannot afford the "base premium."  Then when we actually try to use our insurance, we will pay a base copay and deductible PLUS a "premium copay" and "premium deductible" for those same folks.  Of course, all copays and deductibles will be calculated on a sliding scale, dependent upon your ability to pay as evidenced by your prior 4 years' tax returns plus most recent 4 pay stubs and your shoe size.  Any shortfall in program funding will be covered by so-called "sin" taxes:  Alcohol, tobacco, soda (but only the sugary kind), average miles driven per day, hours per day slept, CO2 expelled with each breath, number and consistency of bowel movements, etc.

54 Being a former single Mom, having insurance that can cross state lines would also be a help. For that matter, insurance which is transferrable for anyone is a good thing.

Tort reform is a biggy. Drinking Jack and taking Oxycontin will kill you. Suing a doctor, or the pharmaceutical company for stupid decisions has not helped matters. Lawyers like John Edwards who take large portions of medical malpractice suits should also be stopped.

Stopping $78 billion dollars worth of Medicaid and Medicare fraud would be another way to lower costs. Between fraud and lawsuit abuse, the hospitals and doctors are forced to raise their prices.

Not to be a racist, but ridding ourselves of millions of illegals would go far in stopping the sucking of the federal and state programs dry. Some place in CA said illegals could no longer have Medicaid money and so they left. They have so far saved something around $5-6 million.

Lately we have been developing some very advanced drugs. A drug which treats breast cancer has now found to be good for stomach cancer. Drugs that keep us healthy, or from draining the insurance companies due to chronic conditions are no longer going to be available, and there certainly will no longer be pharmaceutical companies able to have the R&D performed at the levels currently taking place.

Based on what happened in Canada and Great Britain, I am not for taking any chances.

55 For what it's worth, this is the direction GM should have gone
http://tiny.cc/2fDCS

56 - What would you recommend?

Again, simple. Deal with the whores in the entrenched, Fifth Column media. People screaming "racist!" aren't heard very far or wide if their megaphone is busted.

We're missing a golden opportunity right now - while the economy is being strangled by the Fed and the left - to put the screws to the MSM via their advertisers. Right now every dime of advertising is critical. Has the GOP organized anything that remotely addresses the complicity of the media in the destruction of the Republic? No. That's something we're going to have to do from the grass roots, Tea Party level.

57 Obviously this would be targeted to get younger people on it (the ones who would get really low rates anyway).  Couple that with an artificially low rate from government "competition", and it would make it look like government health care is cheap and good.    And help keep government care low until everyone else gets on it.  Tax private health plans so companies don't want to provide them anymore to encourage this to take place.  It says they might add an addendum to it that requires larger businesses to provide health care.  This would put conservatives and libertarians in a catch-22: support the addendum to keep some plans private (though mandated by government and intervening in business), or vote against it and run the risk of a true national health care plan forming.  The article also mentions lots of tax changes.  This is a new one to me: Obama is proposing new taxes on securities dealers and life insurers, and to raise revenue by prohibiting certain estate-planning techniques... i.e. taxing private retirement.  Very interested to see how this plays out, as I find it a horrific idea.  Anticipating an argument along the lines of "we have to have a way to pay for helping those in need".  Going to bed now...  Gotta get up early and make as much as possible before this commie bastard takes it all.

58 #56/goy: You're right on. I'm going to do that tomorrow too... call MSM advertisers and let them know I'm withholding consumer dollars until they stop propping up the diseased MSM.

We need to teach the leftists that while they are free to do whatever they want, they're not free from the consequence. Time for stick to do some serious justice.

59 Slightly OT

So many levels of sucking

60

Again, simple. Deal with the whores in the entrenched, Fifth Column media. People screaming "racist!" aren't heard very far or wide if their megaphone is busted.

It isn't simple, though. If it was, we'd have already done something about it. We can wait for the media to implode (not likely, at least not in the way we'd like to see it), we can wait for North Korea to imprison our media (I'd like to see that. Maybe farm out some of them to Turkish prisons for good measure), or...what else? Fertilizer bombs in front of the New York Times? Sure, if you want to rally people around the media and absolutely guarantee the goverment will step in and take them over for the sake of "security". Who wants that?

The media is so powerful in the nation that only a total collapse of society will bring about meaningful change.

61 "This kind of shit turns my stomach."

You and me both.

I couldn't believe when so-called conservatives were touting Mitt-Care.

They'd use logic like "everyone's required to own car insurance!"

Yeah, if you choose to own a car.

"So, what's wrong with everyone being required to own health insurance????"

Umm, what, exactly, would I have to give up, to be exempted from that one?

And they call themselves "pro-life."

62 Wow, you guys are hardcore to post on a middle-of-the-night policy thread. I don't catch y'all on the ont's too often. . . .

63

In 1982, Colorado (and a lot of other states) passed laws making motor vehicle insurance "mandatory".This "common sense" measure was designed to stop that 7% of the populace who didn't have insurance, and reining them in was gonna make it cheaper for everyone. By 1986 auto insurance rates had gone up 450%, and 50% of the populace didn't have insurance.

  Giving any segment of the insurance industry (which I think is a scam to begin with) the governmental gun to put to our collective heads is a bad idea. Period.

64 I totally support mandatory insurance, much as we require drivers to also have insurance.

1. Emergency rooms can't turn you down for care anyways, so anyone who gets really ill without insurance is going to cost someone, probably taxpayers.

2. We need to insure that the DemSM no longer has these sob story cases about people like that SCHIP family who are not insured. Make it mandatory and the journolists have nothing left to exploit.

Note, that nothing about mandatory insurance means it has to be government funded or government run insurance.

65

Seems to me that Medicare and Medicaid are partly responsible for the skyrocketing cost of comprehensive coverage for most of us. Think about it, the G-Men only pay what they think is fair (read: not even close to actual cost). How do they make up the difference?  Hose the insurance companies of those that have comprehensive insurance. Inflate the costs to cover the shortfall from Medicare and Medicaid. Why not the end consumer never really knows what they actually paid for.

OT: I wonder if the public plan will cover driving with Ted Kennedy?

66 "I totally support mandatory insurance"

Justify THAT one constitutionally.

67 Who says emergency rooms can't turn you down?  One form or another in order to control costs, that's what has to happen to someone.  At the very least, in the House sense of "You aren't going to be dead by this time tomorrow, go home."

68 If this place becomes like FreeRepublic, you might as well get used to losing elections, 'cause it's the AoSHQ types that make caucusing with conservatives fun, not those folks.  Look, just f***ing google it. First page of results for "Romney plan health" turned up this CNS News report, where Romney sez:

"“Our health care plan in Massachusetts was tailored for our state specifically and I believe a lot of what it did would be a much better model than what he’s [President Obama] considering right now,” said Romney.
 
“Our plan did not include a government insurance plan,” he said. “We did not put together a government-insurance product that was then sold to individuals. Instead, we relied entirely on private market-based insurance plans to help people get insurance. I think that’s a much better model."

You people want another McCain, you can have him.  It's clear the "fixing health care" whatever the fzck that means, is a hot topic among a vast swath of the voters.  However, nobody wants lo lose the good health plans most of us have.  Put those two facts together, and clearly only a compromise will sell.  McCain's lack of plan didn't sell.  Obama's cruel joke of a "plan" did.

Romney may be the son of Satan, and a lying, phony, nouveau pro-lifer who wasn't pro life from clear back to when he was born, but he did put together a compromise that doesn't make Obama your doctor.

Some sarcasm was used in the production of this post.  You find it.  I never use emoticons.

69 BTW, universal coverage won't work.

The End

70 I think they are approaching this all wrong.  First they should make sure that some of the "little problems" that they found in the banking and auto sectors aren't also rampant in the health care sector.  Maybe there is a philosophy that waste and excess are okay.  Maybe doctors are so afraid of a malpractice suit that they order unnecessary tests so they can document their chart and show they covered all their bases.  Maybe we need to change the attitude with which everyone approaches the system.  I don't know. I'm just thinking outloud.  My friend is married to a union member.   Every year every member of the family is entitled to a new pair of glasses.  Every year each meember of the family gets that new paie, even if they don't need them.   They will someday have braces fully paid for all their children and they will give all their children braces whether they need them or not.   If everyone thinks like this the problem is exonential and then no body wins since all our systems appear to be collapsing before our eyes.

71 I would love to see someone do a piece on fraud.  The SEC charges people with fraud but I honestly think regular people be they the users or the providers don't realize that sometimes the things they innocently do are fradulent.

72 Brilliant K-Bob, let's compromise.  Let's find a way to give Obama what he wants, since he will claim all the credit for any 'solution,' and our congressmen can hardly be counted on not to sell the farm when the word 'compromise' gets thrown around.  Any additional spending is a failure here.  Roughly a third to one half of the federal budget is borrowed.  Right now.  That means when folks stop loaning us money, we have to cut that much from the budget (laughable with this crowd in DC) or roughly double everyone's taxes.  Right now.  And you want to allow more spending.  That is suicide even if all the youngins want it.  It's damn time someone acted like a grown up and said no to them.

The only way to cut costs is to cut service.  And the only fair way to do that is to cut service to those who have done nothing to earn it.

73 Posted by: Methos at June 08, 2009 02:26 AM (7h4DG)  didn't uncle ben in as much say that he was going to reel in the purse strings the other day?  WS may have taken that signal the wrong way though.

74 Maybe they have to change how groups are insured.  Maybe all the young single people should be in one group and the rates should be charged accordingly.  Then maybe the young married people would be in another group.  Then maybe the young married people with kids, maybe even divided into sub categories like the married people with 1 child, etc.  Then maybe people in their forties and thirties who are divorced and not considered a young single.  then maybe people in their fifties, those who have children, again by number of children and those whose children are on their own and now in the young single group.  Two seperate categories.  Then the elderly, etc.  It would be a fairer way to do things.  then you could ut the people on SS, those who are on it prematurely in one category and the elderly in another.  People on welfare in another category, possiblydivided the same way as the working people.   YOu could have as many categories and groups as needed and everything would be determined by how the group goes.   You can surcharge all the groups a minimal amount to fund the groups who cannot pay.  We have to get away from the model where the lobbyists and the insurance companies and the drug companies control the model.  The users need to control the model and that might even mean running healthcare as a non profit, period. 

75 This would jump start capitalism again since this would incentivise the insurance companies to develop products that help people again.  Like insurance that pays your bills if you become ill and other "out of the box" products we haven't even thought about yet.  It is so mind boggling that the very ratings agencies that said the CDO's were triple A are still in power.  Just like it is mind boggling that the drug salesman comes to the doctor and leaves free samples. 

76 Part of the problem is that the problem is that the "40 million" (or whatever's conveninent) uninsured are like I was: healthy, but mostly shifting from McJob to McJob, and traking chances. I mean, who cares if I'm single: No one's really on the hook if I die stupidly, and I had good enough genes that that would not be from natural causes anyway. . . .

77 Damn, #76 woulda looked better if I were sober. . . .

78 congress with their gold plated health insurance is so far out of reach with the American people that they can't fix the healthcare system.  They need real people the users, the providers, the insurance company people to put their heads together and come up with a plan.  Like a bunch of moms and dads should be appointed to a task force  etc.  to brainstorm and share ideas.  He wants to do this in two months and if he does, it will fail cause that is not enough time to truly identify the problems and solve them adequately.  Two months is putting a band aid on a popped vein.

79 ...The tax-free nature of employer-provided insurance is the biggest tax expenditure in the federal budget...

There's the root of the problem right there.  Any loose change or pocket lint left in the subjects' citizens' wallets is categorized as an expenditure by these maniacs. 

I guess I ought to feel grateful they let me keep any of it, huh?

I can't wait 'till I get my chance to stand in line to fellate some ACORN or SEIU thug in order to get my name on "the list" for a doctor's appointment.

Yay, barter economy!

80 K-Bob is right, this stuff is massively popular as people are worried as hell they lose their job then they lose their healthcare.

Sure, starting from scratch I'd make sure that health care benefits were taxed, portable, in a national market, make consumer have skin in the game etc., and we should keep trying for this, but if the choice is single payer vs. mandatory insurance but keep a free market, then I choose the free market option.

We are talking damage control now. Maybe the DemSM will collapse and the teachers union fall apart and kids will grow up with libertarian views, but in the meantime, stop the creation of more government is job 1.

81 Sexypig, you're half-wrong about one thing: Kids grow up with Libertarian views when it comes to things they enjoy. You start talking about regulating video games or talk about deregulating things like pot, and strangely they all become libertarians. If we talk about things they don't care about, that's where they're crazy socialists.

82

Could we get some responses from the Romney-bot a$$holes who've spent the last six months berating everybody who voted for McCain instead of the "real conservative"?

McCain's proposal for eliminating the tax deduction for employers and providing every American with a $2,500 to $5,000 tax credit was the best free market health care proposal the GOP has offered in years.  Romney-care was and is a Massachusetts-style, government-mandated nightmare (and Romney's "signature" achievement).

83

As an individual who has TriCare, I wonder how such a "health care" program will affect me and the missus. You see, being retired from active service, I have health coverage. It is paid for by, you the taxpayer. It has co-pays and deductibles, like any other employer provided plan. So, if I don't sign up for this new one, will I lose my current plan. And currently, I am unemployed, having been laid off from an aircraft manufacturer in February. I would suppose that I am lucky, being out of work and still having a health care plan. Is the current junta going to take it away from me?

When I enlisted in September of 1973, I was told that if I did twenty years, my country would take care of me. I did my twenty years, so will I have to worry?

84

This is why I could never vote for Romney.

85 Soon all of America will be suckling at Nancy Pelosi's bountiful breasts!

86 I spent a year working on systems at CIGNA. It made me physically ill to witness the ungodly level of HIPAA violations, shoddily designed and maintained systems, offshoring of data management (how does that work with HIPAA, exactly?), life-sucking bureaucracy, anti-consumer/anti-customer mentality and all-around opulence of the company environment.

Bullshit.  I've worked at two Fortune 500 health care companies.  They're not perfect but are run pretty efficiently.  They have to be to compete and make money.

This sounds like someone didn't get his piece of cake at the company party. 

87 So there's nothing really about cutting costs here, it's merely forcing more people to pay into the pool.

But I guess the trial lawyers get to keep their fatted calf, so that's good, huh?

88 Government can handle health care better than the private sector, according to Obama.
So prove it.  Make VA and Medicare/Medicaid more efficient and effective than, say, Kaiser.
Fucking prove it or shut up.

89 If insurance companies could adjust their pay out for those that didnt wear seat belts or adjust the premium if someone is honest enough to say up front they dont wear a seat belt, the rest of us wouldnt have to bear so much of the cost.

Of course the media would hype displeasure about meanie businesses doing such a thing.

90 Government can handle health care better than the private sector, according to Obama.

Of course, isn't he also the guy who said that if we passed the Stimulus unemployment would peak out under 8%?

Honestly, I think this is a prime point to make in this debate-- this fool's own economic plan still hasn't begun to work and we're going to hand him our medical care, too?

91

good points from the above:  include them in your letters/calls/emails to Congress.  we HAVE to fight this one.

loudly.

92 So, will the hospitals be ordered to not treat the illegal immigrant and the uninsured (like Mrs. Obama did in Chicago)?  From healthworkers I have talked to here in Massachusetts, the illegals are doing quite a number on our hospitals and I understand they have closed a lot of hospitals in southern California for that same reason, they cannot afford to treat the illegals. 

93 I was told that the mexican kids from the day care fire were flown to the US to be treated.  Could that be true or are my friends in CA just getting loopy?

94 Maybe it is jsut as simple as the prez offering you a plane ride back home if you need medical care and you are not legally here.  That would then rompt those who are illegal to re think what they are doing and maybe return home and apply for citizenship throught the proper channels?  As an aside, have noticed that the people who have the least patience with the illegals are the new guys who have come here after wading through the suual channels and the newly minted American citizens.  They make those reformed smokers look like pussy cats.

95
Muffy, according to the WaPo, "Ling and Lee were working for Current TV, a cable and Web network co-founded by former vice president Al Gore, when they were detained March 17 by North Korean soldiers along the border with China. The reporters were working on a story about North Koreans who flee the country, but the circumstances of their arrest are not clear."

I'm sure this is evil of me, but these two journalists probably worked for The One's election. They're now getting hammered by the world they helped to create. North Korea is a place that no human being should have to inhabit, let alone be imprisoned in; that being said, pardon me if I'm not shedding any tears for them.

96 The libs want to spread humanity out into a thin film.
Posted by: Dr. Manhattan

Yes. As it goes, spreading the humanity via coercion will only enable less humanity; as with spreading the wealth enables less prosperity.

97 the smarter European companies that want to attract and keep good employees are starting to do?  They are using their own money to open private clinics so they don't have to settle for the shitty "free" heath care.  Companies that aren't big enough to to this on their own often pool resources with other companies.
Posted by: Lemmiwinks

Pudding proof. Private interests trump Statist where ever people are concerned.

98 Back in 1996, we got a letter from Trenton saying, "Congratulations, we've reformed health insurance for all Garden Staters!" (I paraphrase.)

It was a letter that listed the companies that were "allowed" to offer Jerseyites health insurance.  The list was short.  The table showed how much a couple would pay for each plan offered by the companies.  The cheapest one was no longer affordable.  The most expensive one was, I think, $26,000 per year (that's not a typo).

We've gone without health insurance since.  (We're self-employed, so we pay all costs.)

Prior to the "reform," we paid a reasonable sum to a company that operated out of Milwaukee.  The boys in Trenton, however, raised the bar and only permitted certain firms to do business inside this, the eleventh most populous state in the union, thereby eliminating/curtailing competition.  Thanks!

No doubt some of the people squawking for single-payer are the citizens of NJ, who effectively had their choices limited some time ago.  To the folks in this state, it may seem like health insurance is a disaster, but that's only because they have no idea what choice is like.

99 I don't see that much of a difference between this and mandatory auto-insurance —or seat-belt requirements for that matter.

I can choose not to own a car if I don't want to pay auto insurance or wear a seatbelt and I won't be fined or penalized for doing so.  In fact, million of people who live in city center areas don't pay auto insurance or wear seat belts.

If you'd like to tax all those urban non-drivers them to help me pay for my auto insurance, I'm willing to listen.  Talk to me.

100

Ace, please do a caption contest for that picture Drudge has of Michelle Obama giving the death stare to Bruni.

101

This rejection thing is getting really damned annoying. I placed a quote from the article and made a comment and it was rejected by the filter. Ace, if you want comments this crap cannot go on.

102 I'll join the chorus singing the refrain: no benefits to non-citizens. Get that straight, and then talk about "more or less" for citizens that is already provided.

Which state in our union does not provide county facilities for the indigent citizen? You walk in with your Social Security Card and State ID, sign-in and WAIT for service provided by lower paid professionals using whatever technology the county can afford. The affluent have their own benefits and prefer to not use County Clinics or the County Hospital that really is behind the times in every way. We already have public health care; we simply need to deny benefits to non-citizens who have made us go bankrupt to support them by denying ourselves. There are always charities to benefit pet populations per cause. But the government's obligation is only to its citizens.

The inversion of application at the cost of the birthright is heinous.

Constitutional Rights and tax payer benefits for terrorists and illegal aliens, but not for citizens: Obama Torture.

103 Obie promises 600K jobs this summer.  Lol, yeah right.

104 #100

Thanks for that.  I'd hate to have missed it.

105 Purchase a $5,000+ high deductible plan and your contribution to the Insurance Machine is minimial, it's also a good plan from a personal finance perspective. You cap your liability at 5K in th rare chance something does happen to you and more importantly you get access to the carriers discounts to save 30-50% off any care you do buy. Additionally you usually get an annual preventitve exam for free, access to their health information and nurse line. What we need to fear about government healthcare is losing our freedom to participate in the manner which best suits us, i.e. Medicare for all with one plan for everyone.

106 Don't go to the ER and expect to get treated for free.

Unless you're an illegal alien with no ID or money, then they'll treat you for free. 

If you're an American with ID, then they'll soak you.  It cost me $400 to get a tetanus shot at an ER about 7 years ago, because the hospitals were they only ones in that area of upstate NY who had been allocated any tetanus vaccine.  I called all the walk-in "urgent care" places, a bunch of doctors, and struck out.

I grumbled about the $400 fucking they gave me for the shot, but I was still about $2,000 ahead of the game that year versus even the cheapest health care plan.

107 Have no fear comrades. Chairman Obama is going to "create" 600,000 new stimulus jobs this summer. Just as he has already saved or created 150,000 jobs that were never verified and accepted blindly by our non-biased media. The Won shall create a true workers' paradise for us just like North Korea or Cuba. We are saved!!

108 Freedom is dangerous and unfair, you see.

Yup, that.  I cannot wait to have the same level of healthcare that my Canadian friends do.  You know, like when it took 11 weeks for one to get a knee MRI due to the waiting list.

Re:  the seatbelt thing - I view failing to wear a seatbelt a nice way to thin the herd.  What I'm upset about is the mandatory airbag thing.  Why?  I'm short enough that I have to have my seat nearly all the way up in order to drive.  That means that I'm smack dab in the middle of the danger zone where the bag exploding is more likely to harm me than an accident is.  And I can't get it deactivated due to insurance/warranty issues.  So the mandatory safety feature is going to, at the least, shatter my nose, if not kill me.  Oh.  Yay. 

109 My better half had the same opinion as Purple Avenger on Romney's Law.

For me, Mitt didn't stop at Socializing coerced fines for those who couldn't afford premiums as established by insurance companies like Brian McKim mentioned in NJ.

I did not like Romney's POTUS platform stoking American industry into fascist mode. Obama is carrying out in Obama's manner what Romney promised to do in Romney's manner. Besides the obvious and stark differentiation in their contrasting economic and business experience, Romney loves America whereas Obama has no allegiance to our Constitution or to Americans.

Morons need not assume that I call Romney a Marxist. I do reference his willingness to use Socialism as every political opportunist does to unemployed populations to garner support from those hardest hit. There is no doubt Romney would and will work to establish strong industry within the USA. Obama won't, and is intent on selling America to the highest Marxist bidder.

Given Obama, should Romney be elected 2012, granting their obvious differences despite any similarities America would likely make a right turn unless we really are so far in the black hole that the people scream to keep burrowing deeper in the attempt to recover from the other side of the world.

Opportunists, despite their good qualities, are untrustworthy in a pinch.

110 Obie promises 600K jobs this summer.  Lol, yeah right.
Posted by: Dan F

Check out Craigslist: teach English as a second language in Korea.

Obie's promises are always so pompously vague.

111 Why?  I'm short enough that I have to have my seat nearly all the way up in order to drive.  That means that I'm smack dab in the middle of the danger zone where the bag exploding is more likely to harm me than an accident is.

Who says the eugenicists are no longer at work?

112 Who says the eugenicists are no longer at work?
Posted by: rockhead

Eugenics, in a nutshell.

113

I would agree to a mandatory system of catastrophic health care insurance involving private companies that would result in lower premiums provided that there is a provision that allows for a person to opt out via a bond.  I don't like the mandatory provision but since society won't allow us to make people feel the consequences of their lack of responsibility which subsequently costs those that do, I don't feel real bad about it.

And for all of you twenty-something year old healthy people who don't need insurance, just remember you're healthy until you get into that auto accident or break your neck showing off for that girl by doing a 2 1/2  into too shallow of water.  

114

look, i'm writing my US Senators who are up bambi's rear & my Congressman who would be up Pelosi's butt except that her poll numbers  are bad.  these people want to impose this system on us.

keep writing, calling & emailing.  if someone wants to protest, i have no vacation plans &: can meet you somewhere on the east coast (except do not make me go to NYC).

115

this is a big one, folks.  we need to protest this one.  bambi is introducing this in the summer when he thinks we arent' pay attention.

get with the program.  call, write, email those assholes in Congress.   protest.

116 The way I have heard it, those that show up in ER or even a doctor's office, will be billed like triple, since so many do not pay.  As someone said, if you have $5k deductible insurance, your insurance company negotiates the price down, and the medical facility is assured of payment.  It is almost worth the cost just to have the insurance company as your advocate.

I've also heard those triple fees can be independently negotiated down, though I haven't seen that happen.

But insurance companies and medical folks all want to rake in as much as possible.  My uncle was in the hospital, apparently ready to go home.  The nurse informed me exactly when he'd be released ... after the thirty days that medicare covered was up.  The game is played that way ... they collect ALL the money that medicare allows ... THEN they decide you are healed.  This includes keeping you in a facility while you receive their expensive rehab ... (though rehab probably is important).

I like Goy's ideas ... and why not put major limits on collecting for doctor/hospital mistakes?   So many tests are done supposedly to eliminate lawsuits for not ruling EVERYTHING out, but it also makes for a lot of nice income for the hospital. 

117 Since the idea of socialized medicine is lower prices than PPOs or HMOs, something has to give. With HMOs and PPOs, it was the doctors who suffered income cuts. Not the insurance companies and certainly not the gov't. It will be the same again.

This, of course, sets up a dynamic of patient's welfare vs welfare of doctor's family. Since doctors control the "product" so to speak you will see warping toward treatment that makes more money and shuffling of patients to physicians assistants for diagnosis and treatment via computer program. This is what the push toward "evidence based medicine" is all about. If your problem falls outside the socialist box, too bad.

Doctors who truly want to treat patients properly will find a way outside the system as they have in Britain.

More and more British doctors and dentists have chosen to go private which means they cannot accept national health. They're business is pay as you go. They come to the US for training in the best treatment to justify the extra expense to the patient.

So, in the end, you get a de facto two tier system. In which, only the rich can get top quality care and the rest of us are screwed.

It will happen. Read Milton Friedman's "Free to Choose" esp. the section of the railroads and gov't control. We have plenty of real-life examples to show why socialized medicine is and always will be a failure. Just another Ponzi scheme to shove on our children and grandchildren.

If you think doctors should just sacrifice for the common good, remember they have to train for 8 or more years extra. That's eight years where they are earning no or minimal income. If not allowed to get a proper return on their educational investment, the best and brightest will no longer go into medicine. We're seeing that already with HMOs and PPOs.

Coming soon - The stupid doctor. Enjoy!

Thanks 52!

118 if you just show up in the ER with no insurance they bill much more, I meant.

119 those that show up in ER or even a doctor's office, will be billed like triple, since so many do not pay.

I paid $400 at an ER for a tetanus shot that should have cost no more than $100 based on the materials, time, etc they used to "treat" me for less than 5 minutes.

120 Even after paying triple+ for that shot, I was way ahead of the game on the year by paying cash for what I needed.

121 60- It isn't simple, though. If it was, we'd have already done something about it. We can wait for the media to implode (not likely, at least not in the way we'd like to see it),...

Yes, it IS simple. Trivial, almost.

What's apparently not simple is getting some people to grow out of the passive mindset they've acquired and start thinking ACTIVE resistance instead of standing around waiting for things to change on their own. THEY WON'T.


86 - I've worked at two Fortune 500 health care companies. They're not perfect but are run pretty efficiently. They have to be to compete and make money.

My turn to call Bullshit! No company can justify the level of waste I witnessed while working at CIGNA (and listening to stories from other contractors who'd witnessed identical waste at The Hartford, Aetna and Anthem). You completely missed the point. I have no issue with a company making money - that's what capitalism is all about. Where I have a problem is with an open-loop, proxy monopoly engaging in bottomless waste (propped up by endless rate increases), fraud and blatant, systemic violations of federal regulations intended to preserve individuals' privacy.

Having said all that, I think your comment makes clear most Americans have learned to live with a definition of "pretty efficiently" that would have driven most companies into bankruptcy 20 years ago.

122 Wait a minute. If it's Romney care gone national, at least it isn't single-payer. Not saying this is great (it's far from it) but it isn't single payer.

123 TOTUS attacked Hill for this over and overover in our Primary

124

In every Insurance line, the amount of payouts and expenses exceed the amount of premium.  Insurance carriers make their money by investing the cash flow. One of the main reasons that premiums have risen so high is that the carriers have been forced to expand coverage (birth control pills, etc.)  and also the type of treatments and testing has expanded.  Think how many knee replacements were done in the 80's when the procedure was first started  and how many are done today.  MRI's are almost as common as X-rays once were.  As more innovations are developed the more treatment that will be rendered and required to included in your coverage resulting in even higher premiums.   

125 Purple Avenger, I'm surprised you couldn't go to a walk-in clinic for that.   But your $400 paid for the shots of three others that walked in and never paid.  If you were poor and skipped paying, you could probably talk them down to accepting $100 instead of nothing.  I have talked to some that were able to reduce their bills by a lot, but probably not worth it to save a couple hundred.

If you show up with a broken leg, you may find a catastrophic policy would pay for itself several times over.

126

There are far too many of you Amerikkka simian Christians.  Obamacare will cull most of you just as they kill off the infirm, elderly and poor in the UK.  Obama, Allah's blessings be upon him, will soon make Amerikkka a Muslim country.

 

Allah Ahkbar.

127 Jose:
Ace, please do a caption contest for that picture Drudge has of Michelle Obama giving the death stare to Bruni.

My Submission:  "Five minutes alone with you, and my Bat'leth.  That's all I ask, pretty girl."

128 PA,

I don't know where you live, so maybe there isn't much competition for patients.

But next time, try bargaining the price down before treatment.

My wife has required a lot of medical treatment over the last year or so. Most hospitals etc will take the amount your PPO pays even if they aren't on your PPO, if you talk to them ahead of time.

In your case, find out what the average PPO pays for the treatment you need to a non-provider and offer that then and there. They'll probably take it.

129 This is why I'd never vote for Romney.

130

OK folks, what can we do to make health insurance, and the price of health care, more affordable? For all of the Romney bashing, we are probably going to get Commiecrat single payer socialism if we don't come up with constructive counter arguments.

 

131 Curmudgeon:

122 Wait a minute. If it's Romney care gone national, at least it isn't single-payer. Not saying this is great (it's far from it) but it isn't single payer.

Yes, it could be worse.....and probably will be before Obambi signs it all into law.  I don't believe Congress has really even started on this bill yet.  Once they do deliver the final product to the President, it will be many times larger, and more convoluted.  It will be more restrictive than the draft suggests, more expensive, and will violate our rights to privacy from govt intrusion, and 'oversight' in ways I don't think many are contemplating.

132 If you show up with a broken leg, you may find a catastrophic policy would pay for itself several times over.

If I have a broken leg, I'm claiming I'm an illegal.

133 OK folks, what can we do to make health insurance, and the price of health care, more affordable?

Don't treat illegal aliens.  Or if you're too soft to be that draconian, treat them and then immediately deport them with the provision that if they ever show up in this country again illegally they'll spend the rest of their lives in prison.

Palm Beach county, where I live, spends about $160M/yr of my tax money subsidizing the medical treatment of illegal aliens.

134

Yes, it could be worse.....and probably will be before Obambi signs it all into law.  I don't believe Congress has really even started on this bill yet.  Once they do deliver the final product to the President, it will be many times larger, and more convoluted.  It will be more restrictive than the draft suggests, more expensive, and will violate our rights to privacy from govt intrusion, and 'oversight' in ways I don't think many are contemplating.

That's why patriot Republicans have to propose something else--something that expands coverage while stopping sort of the nonsense that this is a "right", and explains to Joe and Jane Taxpayer Voter how it will help *them*, or lower their insurance premiums. I like Medical Savings Accounts (allowing the "use it or lose it" amounts in Flexible Spending Accounts to roll over up to a certain limit), and making insurance premiums deductible for individuals they way they are deductible for corporations. Obviously, kicking the illegals out would help, but that still leaves Joe and Jane Taxpayer Voter asking what's in it for them.

To all the Romney bashers: Romney rleative to WHOM? Demogogue Huckabee? Juan McAmnesty McLame? Rudy and all the skeletons in his closet? I wished "Fred!" got off his duff and actually *campaigned*, but he didn't. Personally, I wanted Tancredo to throw his support to Duncan Hunter early on and perhaps Hunter would have gotten somewhere, but even that wouldn't be enough clout.

In any case, the 2008 election is over.

135

Don't treat illegal aliens.  Or if you're too soft to be that draconian, treat them and then immediately deport them with the provision that if they ever show up in this country again illegally they'll spend the rest of their lives in prison.

You don't know me very well do you? I have been shouting about illegals for years. I was a Tancredo booster.

136 Purchase a $5,000+ high deductible plan and your contribution to the Insurance Machine is minimial, it's also a good plan from a personal finance perspective.

I have an individual $8000 deductible plan (I think it's $12,000 if I go out of network).  I've been paying $250/month for it.  It hasn't cost the insurance company a dime and very likely never will, as I have never had a major illness or injury.  Just got a form letter telling me the premium is going to $300/mo.  I wonder if the insurance companies are doing this to get more people in favor of Obamacare, which will most certainly result in higher profits for the the insurance industry. 

137

Don't treat illegal aliens.  Or if you're too soft to be that draconian, treat them and then immediately deport them with the provision that if they ever show up in this country again illegally they'll spend the rest of their lives in prison.

Anyway, no offense intended, but I'm already with you here. Totally.

All you WSJ greedheads: how cheap is that garderner or maid now? And all you hispandering romantic fools, will election results ever teach you anything?

138 16 You want to know what some of the smarter European companies that want to attract and keep good employees are starting to do?  They are using their own money to open private clinics so they don't have to settle for the shitty "free" heath care.  Companies that aren't big enough to to this on their own often pool resources with other companies.

Oh, that's just rich.  BTW, I know lots of academic immigrants and there are two interesting stories.  One is a Hungarian who always goes home for health issues because American doctors are way too cautious [insert anti-lawyer rant here].  Another is a Russian who went to England and he says Brits resent immigrants primarily because of the "free" health care.

139 CB ... mine is $5k deductible and is up to like $200/month (I can't keep track as they raise it 15% every nine months or so).  I found when I left a big city (60% black) and went to midwest rural, my rates were about half. ... But they still managed to keep raising rates quickly.

PA ... that was my plan for major medical ... get a fake ID and claim to be Mexican ... ha ... but I don't look Mexican or speak Spanish much ... do they treat illegal Canadians?

A big problem with all this "overreaching" by the left is that it does so much destruction to the economy.  As Santelli put it (paraphrased) there is more load being added to the train that is already going up a steep grade.  Team Obambi seem to have no concern about the economic engine, they just want to hook up as many cars as possible and let those rich Americans pay for it somehow ... it's all magic. 

Or maybe they just want America to default and raise taxes so much that all will default to government ... or the world bankers that own American debt.  Gloom gloom gloom ...

140 A few things I'd like to see. 1) costs for individual payers the same as for insurers (or capped with a small bump for any extra paperwork costs). 2) allow groups to aggregate from individuals to create a larger pool - ie, don't mandate they all work for the same company, etc  3) we can't afford pretty boy Edwards and his ilk. Pain and suffering - you're born, you suffer, you die - deal with it, we can't afford the current way. Actual damages and maintenance going forward only for errors. 4) right now, we have a five-way clerk circle jerk - feds, state, insurer, doctor's office and hospital clerks. The thing about these clerks? Not a one can fix anything thats wrong with you. Push the decision making back out to the medical professionals and live with a managable amount of mistakes and punish fraud.

141

Oy makes good sense and add to that market forces instead of the way insurance handles things would be a huge improvement.  Jason 8 misses the point - auto insurance being mandatory is for drivers.  Passengers don't have to get insurance do they? AND the drivers still get to choose from what company to buy - they don't have to get it from the government.

Allowing doctors to be doctors would also help.  The insurance and government intrusion into medicine has created a market where a doctor cannot have his office perfomr simple blood ytests or x-rays or the like.  Why not?  If you take your child into the doctor's office, because the kid fell down - the doc can look and then he'll say, "Take him to the ER for an x-ray".  When I was younger, my family doc would take the picture himself and take care of the kid - now he isn't permitted to do so.  The consumer then has to make multiple trips for the simplest things.  When I go to get a physical now, I must go somewhere else for the blood test.  Now why can't the nurse at my doc's office draw the blood or take the urine specimen?  They used to and it was all cheaper than it is now - but the costs are hidden from the consumer in today's market and business structure.  Someone made the point about elective surgery costs dropping - well, that is true and it is because the insurance companies don't typically cover this kind of thing - so the practitioners have to figure a way to be competitive and affordable to expand their sales. 

The push ought to be less regulation and forced choices on the consumer.  The problem IS the government right NOW, and creating these ridiculous health care plans will only make a bad situation worse.

142 Just curioius: where does the Constitution give the government the authority to tell me how to manage risk? If it doesn't, then any sort of statutory requirement for any sort of insurance (including auto) is extra-Constitutional. This is exactly the sort of speciously rationalized statute creep that got us to where we are: speeding down the slippery slope.

Auto insurance only guarantees that some ambulance chaser will get a third of whatever they can scam as a settlement. There's no rational justification for a statutory requirement. If I injure someone, they get my house. If I have nothing, they get nothing. End of story. Insurance should not be forced on everyone just to benefit a tiny minority of victims.

The same holds true for health care.

143 If it doesn't, then any sort of statutory requirement for any sort of insurance (including auto) is extra-Constitutional.

The Constitution is a floor, not a ceiling.

144 OK folks, what can we do to make health insurance, and the price of health care, more affordable?

Well, the one thing not to do is get the government involved.

I spent a lot of time the last couple of years taking care of my dad, an Alzheimers victim and too much for my mom to handle.  So, I got very familiar with Medicare at a younger age than most.  He was at Pearl, by the way.

A walker is a simple device - just some tubing and wheels - and you can get one at WalMart for about $ 40.  The seniors all know however, that if you get a doctor's prescription for one, Medicare will pay for it.  You take your prescription to a medical supply store and the government (us) buys one for you for $ 150.

Same with wheelchairs.  My dad eventually went into a mental care facility and they said he needed a new wheelchair.  "No problem" said they: "We'll take care of everything through Medicare."  Some years later, after my dad died, Medicare came looking for the wheelchair.  It seems they had approved a RENTAL for $ 150 per month, and I had no idea.  Government (us) spent over $ 2,000 for a $ 500 wheelchair, and the facility and provider both got a cut.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea: whole industries have developed charging Medicare for stuff.  Nothing the government does will be cheaper.  Nothing.  PA is right about that, once insurance or government is involved, price comparison and accountability go right out the window.

145 89 If insurance companies could adjust their pay out for those that didnt wear seat belts or adjust the premium if someone is honest enough to say up front they dont wear a seat belt, the rest of us wouldnt have to bear so much of the cost.

Colorado has done something sort of along those lines - if you're in a car accident and you're not wearing a seatbelt, you can only sue for the actual medical damages, you don't get to sue for the triple damage bonus.  Telling passengers that ride with me that has greatly increased the number of people who buckle up when riding with me - this may just have something to do with the fact that I'm somewhat worse than the average woman driver, though.

146

End of story. Insurance should not be forced on everyone just to benefit a tiny minority of victims.

The same holds true for health care.

In effect, you are Saying, "Well, TOUGH..." That isn't going to stave off single payer slavery, a la Canuckistan. Yes, mandatory insurance is in effect a tax on the young to lower premiums on the old. But I would rather choose my private insurance than be forced into Commiecare. And saying "well, TOUGH" guarantees Commiecare.

Am I happy with that? NO! But I am telling you, either make a compelling case for market-oriented health care, or be prepared for Commiecare.

147 146 - But I am telling you, either make a compelling case for market-oriented health care, or be prepared for Commiecare.

Uhm... compelling to whom, exactly? The leftards pushing socialized medicine or people who just want to retain some control over their lives (and, as I just accidentally, freudian-slippingly typed: livers)?

The compelling case is this: once the government funds health care through taxpayer contributions it will seize control over any aspect of life that can be rationalized as a potential burden on the system. At that point you can kiss your individual liberty good-bye. Forever.

The insidious aspect of this whole issue is this: people are no longer capable of thinking about health care OUTSIDE the context of health insurance. Decades of indoctrination have destroyed that ability, which has limited the field of solutions only to those that involve a comprehensive health insurance component. And comprehensive health insurance - which has evolved into a proxy monopoly - creates an open-loop pricing mechanism with no substantial incentive to keep prices down the way other commodity prices are controlled. Essentially, comprehensive insurance is the biggest part of what has caused health care costs to skyrocket in the first place, which has in turn resulted in many people's inability to afford health care without insurance. It's diabolical. And if you can't break that cycle, you can't resolve the issue.

We'll never resolve this without the ability to think through what we'd do, realistically (i.e., without turning control of our lives over to the leftists in government), if all of the comprehensive insurance companies vanished from the face of the earth tomorrow.

148 There's no rational justification for a statutory requirement.

In theory, in Florida, I could post a bond in lieu of the required minimum insurance.  I haven't looked at this angle closely, but it may actually be the way to go and ultimately much cheaper than insurance.

149 the reason that the Massachusetts health care bill contained the mandate is that we were providing FREE health care to over 300,000 people who could afford health care but chose to have a cell phone,  and a cable bill etc. etc. Our free health care pool  was costing over one billion dollars a year which insurance companies and the state of Massachusetts pay into so that providers can tap into the fund to pay for health care for those who have none (including those who chose not to but could afford it) Without the mandate people (mostly men between the ages of 18 and 35) would continue to use the free care pool which all the taxpayers fund. It didn't seem fair and there was no other way to force that group to get covered.

So give Governor Romney a break. This mandate was necessary for the entire new health care system to work. End result we have created a plan whereby most residents of the state have health coverage of which there is no government run health care created.

150 - It didn't seem fair and there was no other way to force that group to get covered.

This is kind of what I've been talking about. We will never, ever resolve this issue as long as the "solution" to an abused system is to force individuals to manage their own risk through mandated comprehensive insurance. The only rational solution is to stop the abuse of the system.

"Getting covered" assumes there isn't an alternative to insurance... like paying out of pocket or simply doing without. But as I've noted, people are now incapable of thinking about health care without automatically including insurance. In this case, the problem was with the way the pool was being abused, not the fact that some folks chose to decline coverage.

As you've described it, Risa, Romney's "solution" did nothing but subsidize these dopes' choice using taxpayers' dollars (note: different from tax dollars). That is, tax fines are being used as a club to force employers to provide (and individuals to purchase) a policy whether they want it or not. Effectively, Romney and the MA legislature threw up their hands and said, "gee, there's just no way we can stop rampant abuse of the 'free' care pool, so we'll just have to force everyone to buy something they may not want." So much for "choice", right? And of course I'm sure the insurance company lobbyists had nothing to do with helping that decision along at all.

Romney is a RINO.

151

Romney is a RINO.

OK, goy, it bears repeating: relative to WHOM? Demogogue Huckabee? Juan McAmnesty McLame? Rudy and all the skeletons in his closet? I wished "Fred!" got off his duff and actually *campaigned*, but he didn't. Personally, I wanted Tancredo to throw his support to Duncan Hunter early on and perhaps Hunter would have gotten somewhere, but even that wouldn't be enough clout.

152 - ... relative to WHOM?

Hmmm... let's put that question in perspective...

g: "Abortion is immoral."
C: "Relative to WHAT?"

Romney is a RINO "relative to" the conservative policies he needs to adopt - across the board - that will stop the endless, socially suicidal compromise with morally adolescent leftists, which keeps digging us deeper into socialism.

153

Hmmm... let's put that question in perspective...

g: "Abortion is immoral."
C: "Relative to WHAT?"

Fine, I'll take you up on that. Where I live, we can't even get *parental notification laws for minors* passed, let alone late term abortions, let alone stop state funding of foetal tissue research! Cali went abortion on demand in 1967, under then Governor Reagan no less.

Sorry that issue is DEAD where I live. DEAD as a doornail. No pun intended.

And I hate to tell you, Mr. and Mrs. Joe and Jane Voter are being seduced by the idea that single payer soviet health care will actually *save companies money*. Which is utter crap, but you had better propose something more than saying "TOUGH", or else the Commiecrats will win.

154

Woops, forgot the troll moniker in another thread. Aargh.

155 Methos, I'm not talking about compromising with Obama.  I'm talking about not turning this place into FreeRepublic.  I have no reason to support Romney over folks like Palin, Giuliani, or a few others.  But over in freeper land they kept sticking rhetorical knives in the back of Romney and Giuliani.  Those kinds of folks brought you McCain as the Republican nominee.

I caucus with conservatives because the left is destroying the country.  Unfortunately the religion bigots and pro-life purists are helping the left in it's job.

156 - Sorry that issue is DEAD where I live.

Which is an irrelevant thesis fallacy that wanders off about as far from the actual point as one might stray, isn't it.

- ...you had better propose something more than saying "TOUGH".

Already did. You ignored it. Oh well.

Your basic argument is: compromise or lose everything. I refuse to accept that any longer, because the only difference between those two alternatives - based on the history of our declining Republic to date, as we continue to pander to public ignorance rather than address it and correct it - is how slowly or how quickly we lose everything.

That is the hard truth of endless compromise. Own it.

157 Great.  So according to one comment, Romney is proponent of fascist policies.  Someone else trotted out the canard about Romney not being pro-life.  Someone else refeerred to "Romney Bots".  Great.  Start that shit up here.  Get used to losing again.

I'd be happy with Palin, Romney, Giuliani, Hunter, DeMint, or anyone else as capable and taking the positions they take.  This bullshit about not being pro-life since you were born sounds like classic Moby posting.

158 No offense Purple Avenger, but if you haven't had any health insurance for 10 years and you are doing just fine, you have been lucky.  All it takes is one disease, accident, or major injury and your ass is grass - unless you have millions in the bank. 

Take one of our family friends.  Very healthy family, healthy kids, all is good.  They had a third child that ended up having some pretty major health issues.  Now the poor kid has to get an injection every month to keep him going.  You know how much that injection costs?  $20,000 per injection. 

159

Which is an irrelevant thesis fallacy that wanders off about as far from the actual point as one might stray, isn't it.

Go to hell. YOU brought up the abortion analogy.

- ...you had better propose something more than saying "TOUGH".

Already did. You ignored it. Oh well.

No you didn't. Not in some way to connect with the American public.

Somehow you suffer under the delusion that I loved Romneycare, and its abuses of the system as you described.

Unfortunately, the American public IS accustomed to health insurance. I see no way out of that impasse.

And comprehensive health insurance - which has evolved into a proxy monopoly

OK, can we devolve that monopoly? How to make that more competitive?

160 - Go to hell. YOU brought up the abortion analogy.

I'll pass, thanks. I brought it up as an example of how you're misusing the term "relative", not to assert that abortion was an issue here. The latter was your choice. Irrelevant thesis fallacy.

- No you didn't. Not in some way to connect with the American public.

But I did. You ignored it. Or perhaps you think the American public is too stupid to realize that once the government holds the purse strings on health care that they won't immediately begin dictating every aspect of life that might conceivably affect the cost of health care (have you not been paying attention to the totalitarian trend we've seen the past 50 years??). If that's what you think, it's difficult to understand why you're bothering with this issue at all.

- Unfortunately, the American public IS accustomed to health insurance. I see no way out of that impasse.

Then you suffer from a simple lack of vision.

- ... can we devolve that monopoly? How to make that more competitive?

Devolve? Do you mean dissolve? Sure, that's easy. Two steps.

1. You recognize comprehensive health insurance for what it is: a Ponzi scheme that drives the cost of health care to increase at skyrocketing rates AND begets insane levels of waste and inefficiency within the insurance companies themselves due to the fact that they only need to raise their rates to cover the expense (kind of like the government raising taxes to cover for their ineptitude and greed for power).

2. You declare comprehensive health insurance illegal, and phase it out in favor of going back to direct payment for services coupled with catastrophic policies.

This is only "nuts" in the context of the tiny little box into which we've taped our thinking, where we're incapable of separating the idea of health care from that of health care insurance. Outside that box, it's the only thing that will ever fix the problem.

Health care is the ONLY cost of living where we apply this insane thinking that every dime of expense has to be covered by insurance. It's madness.

161

You declare comprehensive health insurance illegal, and phase it out in favor of going back to direct payment for services coupled with catastrophic policies.

goy: my apologies. I misunderstood you. I am certainly in favor of catastrophic coverage coupled with medical savings accounts for routine type expenses, etc. The notion that every dime of expense has to be covered by insurance IS definitely madness.

162 - my apologies.

Me too. Didn't want that discussion to devolve into a flame duel. I've actually written on this topic at length, if you care to check it out.

163 goy,

I think you mean "universal" health care, not "comphrehensive."

I am happy, and pay a lot for, my comprehensive policy.  Universal health care will destroy health care.

164 163 - I think you mean "universal" health care, not "comphrehensive."

No, I absolutely do not. I mean, specifically, comprehensive health care insurance. As opposed to catastrophic (i.e., "major medical") health insurance. Please see the link in my response to 'mudgeon for details.

I completely agree that so-called "universal" health care (which is neither universal, nor care) will destroy actual health care - along with most of our liberty. But it will only do so more quickly than comprehensive health care insurance is already doing so. Outside this, there's not much difference in the final analysis. Either we maintain the system we have, and blow some 20-25% of GDP on skyrocketing health care and health care insurance costs, or we allow the government to completely destroy the health care system through socialization, and take individual liberty down with it.

The third way is the only way out.

165 Goy: A LOT of great points (you're my hero, BTW).  But I have to ask: 

In *my* world, I limit doctor visits and testing as much as possible, to levels that could be managed with direct pay, even though I have a comprehensive medical plan through my employer.  The roadblock I encounter comes in the form of medications needed for the treatment of symptoms of multiple sclerosis (not to CURE it, mind you, only for symptomatic treatment), multiple in nature and, unfortunately, ALL under patent and available only as brand-name (don't get me started on abuse of med patents to keep a generic off the market), costing thousands per month and all together about double my monthly income - but the only thing allowing me to continue working and contributing to the pool of tax dollars my state and federal governments are incurably addicted to.

How's all this gonna work for someone like me, without a comprehensive medical plan but with a chronic and incurable medical condition with an unpredictable course and nature?  I already know I'm targeted under Bamacare as a burden on society, but for some strange reason I still feel compelled to fight on and, therefore, continue asking questions.

166 goy,

I'm not quite with you, there.  I know the insurance game is chock full of crap, but not all of it.  Managed care is controlled by major insurance companies, and that's a problem for many (in some cases it actually improves treatment options).  It's a mess, and the vast majority of the mess is directly attributable to regulations laid on the insurers and medical providers.  Another immense burden is the horrible torts system killing specialties practices.  These all need attention.

Comprehensive policies should be market-driven and available to those who want 'em.  Catastrophic-only policies are better than nothing at all, but not really a "way forward."

167 165 Goy: A LOT of great points (you're my hero, BTW).

WOW. Thanks but... I'm not worthy (no, really).

Angie, you've just described exactly the situation my wife is in. She's PPMS now, and past the point where betaserone, copaxone or the 'a' drug (forget the name) will help any longer. The only thing that helps her at all now are - expensive - monthly cytoxan chemotherapy treatments and ongoing megadoses of Tramadol. She refuses to go with any of the other drugs because they take her cognitive abililties to below acceptable levels. Still, there is the cost.

So your case is our case, and in a fair and balanced world, a catastrophic, high-deductible policy would handle the bulk of the cost. Such a policy would be best administered at the municipal level, NOT at the employer level. There are several reasons for this. One typically changes residence far less frequently than one changes jobs. Municipalities can leverage actuarial group sizes far larger than most companies. Local politicians can typically be voted out if they're abusing the system - try that with your employer. There are others, but these are the main ones.


166 - I know the insurance game is chock full of crap, but not all of it.

K', it's not the fact that the game is full of crap, it's the fact that the economic model is demonstrably unsustainable. Health care costs, physicians' salaries and insurance premiums all skyrocket as they have primarily because there's no mechanism to close the loop and keep them under some semblance of control. This situation is created by the Ponzi nature of comprehensive health insurance, where EVERY cost is encouraged to increase because, simply, there's not much stopping it and plenty trying to increase it - not the least of which is the enormous conflict of interest in the CHCI companies due to the fact that increased cash flow due to increased cost ultimately increases their bottom line.

What you say is true IF getting rid of comp. policies is the only thing you do. Please see my article at the link above for the rest.

The most important thing is to get out of the "how do we cover the skyrocketing cost" mindset and adopt one that's constantly trying to figure out how to bring the skyrocketing costs back DOWN to reasonable levels. NO health care "plan" does this.

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204 Certainly watches are Replica Watches used to help people record rolex Watches time, but rolex watches nowadays its functions have enlarged. Replica watches are now tag heuer Watches not only objects that tag heuer watches can tell you what time it is, they are also a status symbol. You should not feel strange when you find someone wearing a watch on his wrist, but use the cell phone to tell time. In that situation, the watch is just showing its luxurious function cartier watches. It is normal and cartier watches perhaps also happens to you. .If asked that among the watches of various brands, which one can suit your taste? There is no doubt that most people will choose Rolex. Whichever social class you are in, it is naturally Rolex was known breitling Watches and cherished breitling watches for a long time. However, the elements do not usually enter the market alone, always come with the price tag up to the hand. For this reason, many people, especially men, their dreams of luxury Rolex watches are buried in omega Watches his heart omega watches. What should I do? Rolex watches are simply stunning worn by the rich and famous, right? No, this world is not the world's richest men, is the world of each. All are equal before the search of luxury and be men's watches respected. Within men's watches, the law, when consumers are in the market, women's watches they should women's watches receive the same treatment. This is the real reason why replica Rolex watches are ladies watches ladies watches more welcome than Rolex. Because in this world are not difficult to understand that the rich are much less than people with low income, you agree with me? You are forced to nod and say with certainty that is the reality. These low-income people do not have enough money to save every month. They can not afford such luxury Rolex watches

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