Trial Balloon: Hey, Let's Impose a National Sales Tax

it won't happen. Obama promised that no one making under $250,000 would pay an additional dime in tax (and some conservatives, striving for accuracy, say he probably meant income taxes; the quote itself, however, is more expansive and does not limit itself to income taxes).

So this is obviously untrue.

Those crazy tea-partiers who said Obama was going to raise their taxes. What lunatics.

Once Unthinkable, U.S. Sales Tax Gets Fresh Look
Levy Viewed as Way to Reduce Deficits, Fund Health Reform
By Lori Montgomery
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 27, 2009
With budget deficits soaring and President Obama pushing a trillion-dollar-plus expansion of health coverage, some Washington policymakers are taking a fresh look at a money-making idea long considered politically taboo: a national sales tax.
Common around the world, including in Europe, such a tax -- called a value-added tax, or VAT -- has not been seriously considered in the United States. But advocates say few other options can generate the kind of money the nation will need to avert fiscal calamity.
At a White House conference earlier this year on the government's budget problems, a roomful of tax experts pleaded with Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner to consider a VAT. A recent flurry of books and papers on the subject is attracting genuine, if furtive, interest in Congress. And last month, after wrestling with the White House over the massive deficits projected under Obama's policies, the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee declared that a VAT should be part of the debate.
"There is a growing awareness of the need for fundamental tax reform," Sen. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) said in an interview. "I think a VAT and a high-end income tax have got to be on the table."
A VAT is a tax on the transfer of goods and services that ultimately is borne by the consumer. Highly visible, it would increase the cost of just about everything, from a carton of eggs to a visit with a lawyer. It is also hugely regressive, falling heavily on the poor. But VAT advocates say those negatives could be offset by using the proceeds to pay for health care for every American -- a tangible benefit that would be highly valuable to low-income families.
Liberals dispute that notion. "You could pay for it regressively and have people at the bottom come out better off -- maybe. Or you could pay for it progressively and they'd come out a lot better off," said Bob McIntyre, director of the nonprofit Citizens for Tax Justice, which has a health financing plan that targets corporations and the rich.
A White House official said a VAT is "unlikely to be in the mix" as a means to pay for health-care reform. "While we do not want to rule any credible idea in or out as we discuss the way forward with Congress, the VAT tax, in particular, is popular with academics but highly controversial with policymakers," said Kenneth Baer, a spokesman for White House Budget Director Peter Orszag.

It's odd, isn't it, that the media refuses to note the obvious -- Obama's wild spending has jeopardized our finances -- except obliquely, as here, in an article debating how to fix the problem.

But note they do not highlight the problem itself, nor suggest possibilities that do not involve raising taxes. Such as, I don't know, simply stopping spending so damn much and putting Obama's even bigger coming spending programs on hold.

They will only admit the problem, in other words, in service of advancing their other political priorities -- raising taxes being high on the list.

Thanks to AHFF Geoff.

Posted by: Ace at 11:42 AM

Comments

1 But Barry will make sure that only the evil rich get taxed.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 27, 2009 11:46 AM (1Jaio)

2 And why do they think that this will bring in tons of cash? Other than food and clothes, people will stop buying. Cars will go 300,000 miles before trade-in, etc., etc., etc.
Step 1in in crashing the ecomony: Elect a kleptocrat.Step 2: institute a VAT or National Sales Tax
Along the way, forget to tell the public that tax applies to EVERY transaction from raw materials to the finished product so that a 10% sales tax winds up being a 50% sales tax (on average). The VAT's are applied this way. Instead of taxing on the actual value added at any step the tax is applied on the whole value at every step.
I'm sure this will really stimulate the economy. Yeah. Sure.

Posted by: chuck in st paul at May 27, 2009 11:48 AM (jDpso)

3 except obliquely, as here, in an article debating how to fix the problem.
But note they do not highlight the problem itself, nor suggest possibilities that do not involve raising taxes. Such as, I don't know, simply stopping spending so damn much and putting Obama's even bigger coming spending programs on hold.
They will only admit the problem, in other words, in service of advancing their other political priorities -- raising taxes being high on the list
I disagree. They're not acknowledging a spending problem now. Their idea is to use this tax to fund things we yet don't have. Its not a mention of fixing the problem. Its "How do we pay for even more," while ignoring we can't even pay for what we have now.

Posted by: buzzion at May 27, 2009 11:49 AM (Lrsi6)

4 1
But Barry will make sure that only the evil rich get taxed - You know, I know people who actually believed that line of bull crap during the campaign.

Posted by: teej at May 27, 2009 11:49 AM (lG7ds)

5 I love this! A massively regressive tax on the fucktards who voted for the one. A VAT, of course, is a way to rob people who are basically too stupid to understand how royally they are being screwed. Thats why they work in Canada.

Posted by: dan in michigan at May 27, 2009 11:50 AM (88w67)

6 Spend less????? SPEND LESS??!??!?!?!?!?

WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

YOUR MONEY AND PROPERTY IS OUR MONEY AND PROPERTY YOU RACIST PLANET KILLING TOOLS!!!!!

Posted by: Libtard at May 27, 2009 11:50 AM (ngD76)

7 ...or as Spock so eloquently put it, "The good of the One outweighs the good of the many."
Something like that I'm sure.

Posted by: Kae Gregory at May 27, 2009 11:50 AM (RkRxq)

8 The anti-SP Gnome plan.

1. Proposed more spending than any president in history.
2. Come to the sudden realization, "Gee, we're out of money".
3. Raise Income Tax on everyone.
4. Eliminate "tax break" on health benefits.
5. Close all evil loopholes.
6. VAT
7. Backdoor carbon tax via Cap-n-trade.
8. Implement various "sin" taxes (soda pop, alcohol, tabacco, etc., etc.)

I'm sure I've missed a few. Anyone who thinks team Bambi didn't have this all thought out is a f-ing idiot (i.e. they voted for him).

Hey 52%, I have a plan for you. It involves a red hot poker.

Posted by: rockhead at May 27, 2009 11:53 AM (DvaIL)

9 ¡Viva la Revolucíon!

Posted by: John Galt at May 27, 2009 11:54 AM (SDkq3)

10 Didn't any of these clowns take Econ 101 in school? If the talk of this gets serious, watch what happens to the Dow.

In all my years I've never been so repulsed by a politician.

Posted by: Ombudsman at May 27, 2009 11:54 AM (fWF4Q)

11 Go ahead and try it. Preferably in the months right before November 2010.

Posted by: Tresjin at May 27, 2009 11:55 AM (l7K0j)

12 I'm sure I've missed a few.

You forgot nationalizing health care and using the IRS as a weapon to bludgeon political opponents.

Posted by: Ombudsman at May 27, 2009 11:57 AM (fWF4Q)

13
Hey, howzabout a sex tax?

You gotta pay $100.00 to boink some chick.

Whaddya think bout that?

Posted by: Joe Biden at May 27, 2009 11:57 AM (ao5cQ)

14 And here come the cliches:
Bob McIntyre, director of the nonprofit Citizens for Tax Justice, which has a health financing plan that targets corporations and the rich.
Corporations--detached evil entities that do little to help the economy beyond employing people, making things and already paying taxes (that the poor do not).
"The rich"--conveniently left undefined. Apparently 250K for a household now qualifies as wealthy.
The backlash against this nonsense has to start soon.
Doesn't it?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 27, 2009 11:57 AM (B+qrE)

15 Yet another bullet point for the 'maliciously trying to destroy the country' scorecard.

Posted by: kerncon at May 27, 2009 11:58 AM (S4d07)

16 Go ahead and try it. Preferably in the months right before November 2010.
I'm afraid that their plan is to try to stave off any new taxes until after the election. Then come the 2nd week of Nov. 2010 the jug eared fool will have a prime time address to tell us we're in deep sh*t and there is no choice but to raise taxes.

Posted by: rockhead at May 27, 2009 12:00 PM (DvaIL)

17 I want to give Barry a rectal exam, with my tongue

Posted by: Honest Seattle Slough at May 27, 2009 12:01 PM (RNwpX)

18 and some conservatives, striving for accuracy, say he probably meant income taxes FAIL
While Campaigning In New Hampshire, Obama Pledged That "No One Making Less Than $250,000 A Year Will See Any Type Of Tax Increase." "Barack Obama began an important two-day campaign visit to swing state New Hampshire today by ... taking his own version of the Granite State's state's [sic] anti-tax pledge. ... 'I want to take a pledge,' he told about 250 supporters and independents in his first of two stops today. 'I pledge that under my plan, no one making less than $250,000 a year will see any type of tax increase. Not income tax, not capital gains taxes, not any kind of tax.'" (John Distaso, "In NH, Obama Makes 'Pledge' Against Tax Hikes On Most Americans," The [Manchester, NH] Union Leader, 9/12/0

(from GOP.com)

Posted by: Andy at May 27, 2009 12:01 PM (QYJUz)

19 The trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe and saw

Posted by: The Maples at May 27, 2009 12:02 PM (sOxtB)

20 nonprofit Citizens for Tax Justice
Aka for-profit Citizens to Lobby the Government to Steal Your Shit and Give it to Them. AKA Thieves without the balls to do the stealing themselves.

Posted by: Mr. Pink at May 27, 2009 12:03 PM (NM1Nu)

21 But advocates say few other options can generate the kind of money the nation will need to avert fiscal calamity.

They aren't saying this 'new' money will go to pay China, they are saying this money will help lower the amount of money we will need to borrow from China to pay for healthcare most of us already have. The sick part is that all hospitals ER have to give free care to those unable to pay. We already have free healthcare for all. It is just some of us want better care, and are willing to pay for it.

Posted by: momma at May 27, 2009 12:03 PM (penCf)

22 The fact that Il Douche's administration can even float this idea proves that the IQ of the statistically average citizen in the Nation Below Canada has actually fallen into negative numbers.

This isn't an original question, but I'll throw it out there again. If Barry Rainbowshanks actually was the Socialist Boogeyman we're told he is not, how would he do anything differently? Take a VAT, gubmint owning a major industry (even a euro social democracy like the Italian government doesn't own FIAT), stories about micromanaging the color of cars and rooves, the proposed taxes on sins like sugar and lamb and poisons like CO2... If this isn't the dawn of Soviet style central planning, I don't know what is.

Posted by: George Orwell at May 27, 2009 12:07 PM (AZGON)

23 Nothing cures a recession like a raft load of new taxes.
Eesh.

Posted by: Fred at May 27, 2009 12:07 PM (+BCNM)

24 Don't you wingnuts know that only rich people buy things?!?

Posted by: Mel at May 27, 2009 12:08 PM (mKrLA)

25 I feel like I'm living in a particularly grim episode of "The Goode Family".

"The Goode Nation"!

Thanks, 52!

Posted by: rinseandspit at May 27, 2009 12:08 PM (ao5cQ)

26 19 "The trees are all kept equalBy hatchet, axe and saw"
"The oaks are much too lofty, we must MAKE THEM give us light."
Heh

Posted by: Bosk at May 27, 2009 12:10 PM (fazYB)

27 I have a feeling El Ron Hubbard is pissed as hell right now for notknowing he could have started his cult by just using two words instead of writingan entire book. Think of all that wasted time he could have spent enjoying himself on his boat with all those boys.

Posted by: Mr. Pink at May 27, 2009 12:10 PM (NM1Nu)

28 Wind energy companies just wrote Gov. Strickland to beg for a tax break, stating without them, no green energy companies will be attracted to Ohio.
Funny. They know lower taxes attract companies, only if they are green companies. Any other business will not be turned away because of higher taxes.Higher taxes are good for the economy. Taxing the rich is good for state budgets. Etc., etc., etc.......
I swear they are all race horses. TAKE THE BLINDERS OFF ASSHOLES!

Posted by: momma at May 27, 2009 12:12 PM (penCf)

29 It's a good thing Obama isn't directing the alcohol rehabilitation programs (yet).

"What, you have an alcohol problem? Hell, you're not drinking enough. Quadruple your intake daily and get back to me."

Posted by: HatlessHessian at May 27, 2009 12:13 PM (7r7wy)

30 What I noticed is that they took special pains to limit the discussion solely to a Euro-style VAT and made no mention of the Fair Tax. The Fair Tax has long been derided as "politically impossible." Maybe so. But then how can a more complex intrusive VAT be feasible?

Posted by: 5th Level Fighter at May 27, 2009 12:13 PM (z4qI0)

31 But then how can a more complex intrusive VAT be feasible?

It gives government more power, which means they'll find a way to make it happen.

Posted by: Rob Crawford at May 27, 2009 12:14 PM (ZJ/un)

32 Welcome to Bartertown.

Posted by: Warden at May 27, 2009 12:16 PM (KXbGD)

33 But then how can a more complex intrusive VAT be feasible?
The mind reels at the bureacracy that will be necessary.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 27, 2009 12:16 PM (B+qrE)

34 Hey, howzabout a sex tax?

You gotta pay $100.00 to boink some chick.

Whaddya think bout that?

Um, a good hooker costs more than that, and a wife, if you break it down by amount spent vs. times she actually puts out, costs WAY more than that.

Posted by: Some.Racist.Homophobe at May 27, 2009 12:16 PM (gQLr2)

35
Before the new tax goes into effect, Americans would be motivated to buy as much as they could, far beyond the exchanges that would occur in the natural market. This would cause shortages, price increases, and the perfect atmosphere to blame economic problems on the "laissez-faire" tax reformers. Once the tax is implemented, buyers and sellers would be penalized a hefty percentage on each exchange. This would discourage trading on the market, and instead incite people to become more economically self-sufficient. The division of labor on which civilization relies would suffer a major blow, as economic activity became far more atomized than optimal in a free market. Furthermore, older folks who saved for their retirement and paid taxes on their income their entire lives would suffer a whole new assault on their livelihoods. Whole industries that are currently free from taxation would also take a beating, once the Internet is taxed, which I'm willing to bet is part of the sales taxes being contemplated.

Posted by: sickinmass at May 27, 2009 12:17 PM (/i4dU)

36 no one making less than $250,000 a year will see any type of tax increase

Bust a deal, face the wheel....

Posted by: mm at May 27, 2009 12:19 PM (h8FW/)

37 Would this tax apply to firearms?

Posted by: Ombudsman at May 27, 2009 12:19 PM (fWF4Q)

38 They can increase taxes to get more money when a) they are doing no more than is absolutely necessary, and b) doing it efficiently, with minimal waste.

I can't spend like a deranged lunatic and then go out and take other people's money to pay my bills, why should the government get to?

Posted by: nickless at May 27, 2009 12:21 PM (MMC8r)

39 So this is what it is like to live in a third world country.

Posted by: ghost707 at May 27, 2009 12:22 PM (ixv8I)

40 I'm afraid that their plan is to try to stave off any new taxes until
after the election. Then come the 2nd week of Nov. 2010 the jug eared
fool will have a prime time address to tell us we're in deep sh*t and
there is no choice but to raise taxes.

If they can wait that long. I'm guessing they're going to decide it's necessary sooner than anticipated before that 17-month delay can complete. Around the point where that threatened "fiscal calamity" pops up and they'll collectively decide that the rational, intelligent course is to douse the rising flames with a cool, refreshing bucket of petrol.

Posted by: Tresjin at May 27, 2009 12:22 PM (l7K0j)

41 @10 - Sadly, they probably did take econ 101. I teach public sector budgeting courses, and any time I get to VAT's and/or Keynes, I always get questions that start "In econ, my professor said..." followed by something positive about them, or why we need to use their philosophies/methods here. The idea of limited government interference seems lost to them.

Posted by: Doc at May 27, 2009 12:23 PM (AghBu)

42 I can't spend like a deranged lunatic and then go out and take other people's money to pay my bills, why should the government get to?
Well, you could--but the legal system calls that "bad theft".

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 27, 2009 12:23 PM (B+qrE)

43 Or is evidence not important in the furtherance of a worthy cause?

BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!

Oh, that was absolutely precious, jeffrey. Suddenly, it's important to people like you that evidence exists before someone can make these sorts of claims?? When did that rule kick in??

I personally don't think Obama got so involved at this level as to decide which dealers were closed down, but why not allow the numbers to speak for themselves, before you get all whiny, huh?

Posted by: MSM at May 27, 2009 12:26 PM (wWwJR)

44 We should hesitate to trust them with establishing yet another kind of government theft, no matter how much they promise to reduce the burden of the other kinds they have introduced in the past like income taxes.
Another incidental problem with the national sales tax is its Constitutionality. It is not clear how so many technicalitarian opponents of the income tax can confidently assert that the 16th Amendment was never ratified or that it never meant to tax American citizens but that, for some reason, it is okay to implement a national sales tax that is nowhere to be found in any of the Constitution’s amendments, properly ratified or not.

Posted by: sickinmass at May 27, 2009 12:27 PM (/i4dU)

45 damn, wrong thread.

Posted by: MSM at May 27, 2009 12:27 PM (wWwJR)

46 "Citizens for Tax Justice, which has a health financing plan that targets corporations and the rich."
I do not think your name means what you think it means.

Posted by: reason at May 27, 2009 12:28 PM (kZVsz)

47 But, but, but everyone else has a VAT, we gotta be cool like them. Their societies haven't collapsed, ya wingnuts. Just because they have to live in houses and apartments one-third the size of ours and drive shoeboxes or take the bus and wait six months for major surgery doesn't mean they aren't way, way more hip and sustainably green and, like, not haters, 'n' stuff.

Coming up next: Geithner's Weimar Strategy.

Posted by: Typical Obama Voter at May 27, 2009 12:29 PM (AZGON)

48 >>>Hey, howzabout a sex tax?

>>>You gotta pay $100.00 to boink some chick.

>>>Whaddya think bout that?

I think most of us here could live with that.

No one minds taxes on "the other guy," after all.

Just don't tax self-gratification and we're cool.

Posted by: ace at May 27, 2009 12:29 PM (gEsIJ)

49 So, ya don't like my idea of a sex tax. That's okay, I gotta millions of'em.

Whaddabout a crap tax?

Ya take a crap. You pay.

We could even make it progressive. Say put those little things. Electric eyes in toilets to measure the amount. Pay by the inch.

Say $100.00 per incha crap.

Whaddya think bout that?

Posted by: Joe Biden at May 27, 2009 12:31 PM (ao5cQ)

50 Poll tax.

Tax every vote.

It's the only way to get that Acorn money back.

Posted by: nickless at May 27, 2009 12:32 PM (MMC8r)

51 Oops. Columbus, Ohio is asking for a .5% income tax to fund the police force. A force that was bulked up by stimulus money this year, but is not funded for next year.

*Racist Warning*

The Mayor of Columbus is black. He replaced the retired black chief with a new white chief. Guess who has to ask the citizens for more money. Yep. Whitey.

No way Mayor Coleman could have seen this coming. I mean, Obama flew in and showed us how the stim-stim-stimulus plan was working by rehiring all those jobless academy grads. See? It's working right before your eyes.

Posted by: alppuccino at May 27, 2009 12:35 PM (nwXF9)

52 Before we get crazy here, go read the article. It quite clearly states the problems that would be fixed at various levels of VAT taxation.
For instance, with a 25% tax, all of our debt would be gone, and healthcare would no longer be a problem.
For the country, at least. My debt would be staggering and my health would probably be ruined. But, you get the point.
Quit being so selfish! The government already takes some 30-50% of your income at various levels. What's another 25% between friends?

Posted by: John at May 27, 2009 12:36 PM (nyWJj)

53 They told me that if I voted for McCain/Palin, taxes would go through the roof, unemployment would skyrocket and we would experience unbelievable hyper-inflation as has never been seen before in a developed nation.

And they were right!

Posted by: wiserbud at May 27, 2009 12:37 PM (wWwJR)

54 I would support this 100%... if it meant the elimination of the income tax. One or the other, with strong restrictions on changing taxes in any way, and a sales tax would actually pull in more revenue for less of a percentage than the present system.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 27, 2009 12:38 PM (PQY7w)

55 I've never met such a bunch of un-patriotic people. Paying taxes is the most patriotic act you can take part in. You're all a bunch of America haters.

Posted by: Plugs Biden at May 27, 2009 12:39 PM (DvaIL)

56 A National Sales Tax or a VAT would be political suicide for the Dems.

Any future Republican administration could use it as a wedge to eliminate the income tax. Once the mechanism exists and is proven, it becomes very easy to increase the VAT and simultaneously drop income taxes. Once withholding goes away - it never comes back.

Posted by: Jean at May 27, 2009 12:41 PM (L64A6)

57 But see, you wingnuts just don't understand simple Progressive Math: All tax revenue collected by the federal government is passed through our patented "Progressive Flux-Capacitor Money-Doubler", so that if your government raises taxes by, say, 500 billion dollars, Progressive politicians (including our Messiah, of course) are now able to spend an additional ONE TRILLION dollars (see how that two-fer-one thing works?) without raising the government's deficit by a "significant amount."*

Now, some of you may have heard the rumor (started by--hissssss--Rush Limpballs--hissss-- or some idiot, pajama-wearing blogger) that when your tax payments go to the Federal Government, politicians skim, say, a third off the top for themselves and valued staffers and pet programs that get them re-elected, so that only *part* of the money is left to spend on things like... paying off our Chinese creditors.

You are hereby warned that after July 1st, believing this ugly rumor will be a Class 1 ThoughtCrime, punishable by two years in federal prison.

You are further advised that *repeating* this ridiculous rumor after July 1st will be a Class 2 ThoughtCrime, punishable by a minimum of five years in prison, and forfeiture of any Chrysler franchise you may have thought you owned.

*For the definition of "significant" see 307 USC 10,508 at pp 21,343 thru 21,456.

Posted by: Typical Leftard at May 27, 2009 12:41 PM (xz5dP)

58 11 days without a smoke, and then I read this,,WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE JUST SHOOT ME

Posted by: teej at May 27, 2009 12:42 PM (c459z)

59 During WW2 there was a Federal Excise Tax or Luxury Tax on items such as tires,jewelery,boats,cars anything that was considered a " luxury".This was a temporary tax for the War. It was still in effect during the 1960's, can't remember when it was actually abolished. In high school I worked in retail and remember this tax.

Posted by: jAYNE at May 27, 2009 12:48 PM (UbxTU)

60 So what are the arguments for a revenue-neutral national sales tax? One is that the government would somehow become more friendly, less invasive and intrusive, and more respectful of our rights. Such a prospect is pure comedy! If the government is still poking its nose in all the retail stores in the country, auditing their records and treating people as guilty until proven innocent – which are the preferred tactics when the government is trying to collect trillions of dollars of revenue – we can expect no more privacy or freedom from a sales tax regime than what we now have.
BTW: >Just don't tax self-gratification and we're cool.
That comment..Ace, belongs in the 1440 ct overnight thread. Sheesh!

Posted by: sickinmass at May 27, 2009 12:52 PM (/i4dU)

61 Silly morons! Of course they're not going to tax anyone below $250,000k. Those of us who make less will have to itemize every item we purchase so we can get a refund back from the feds at the end of the year. Our year-end tax returns will baloon to hundreds of pages and we'll have to all buy software to keep track of purchases. It'll be great. I, for one, welcome our new taxing overlords.

Posted by: Hellfire at May 27, 2009 12:53 PM (iV6L6)

62 I would support this 100%... if it meant the elimination of the income tax.
Of course the chances of that happening are basically nil. We'll end up with the sales tax plus an income tax, as is the case in most of Europe.

Posted by: flenser at May 27, 2009 01:01 PM (a4B3I)

63 However the government taxes us, it is way too big, and it isn’t that way only because of the poor, or the rich, or the Republicans or the Democrats. The reasons it is too big are more complicated than that. One reason is that Americans have become divided against each other by the political process, and instead of focusing their animosity and energy on reducing the power of the institution that has divided us, many of us blame one group or the other, and fall into the trap of trying to use the state against those that we perceive are using it against us now. Such divisive political activism allows the state to expand, widens oppression, and fails to address the fundamental problem. Attempts to reform the tax code are often manifestations of this kind of division. Silly Morons indeed.

Posted by: sickinmass at May 27, 2009 01:04 PM (/i4dU)

64 You gotta pay $100.00 to boink some chick.
Whaddya think bout that?
What.
A.
Bargain!!!

Posted by: Eliot Spitzer at May 27, 2009 01:07 PM (a4B3I)

65 You gotta pay $100.00 to boink some chick.

So, do I give them the $100 before or after I boink them?

And, iffin I'm reading you right here, they have to do it for the $100, right?

Okay, I'm in.

Posted by: wiserbud at May 27, 2009 01:10 PM (IHbof)

66 31 What I noticed is that they took special pains to limit the discussion solely to a Euro-style VAT and made no mention of the Fair Tax. The Fair Tax has long been derided as "politically impossible." Maybe so. But then how can a more complex intrusive VAT be feasible?
I'm waiting for someone on the left to claim the Fair Tax and VAT are the same thing.
The MSM will sell it to the 52% who will buy it hook, line and sinker. Enough of the 48% will go along that the VAT will pass and the Fair Tax will be dead forever.

Posted by: Scott J. at May 27, 2009 01:10 PM (/bVuS)

67 Hey 52%, I have a plan for you. It involves a red hot poker.
.308" in diameter, 168 grains in weight. Can be remotely applied out to 600 yards.

Posted by: Scott J. at May 27, 2009 01:16 PM (/bVuS)

68 this has probably all ready been said, if they were proposing replacing the fedreal income tax with a national sales tax i'd be all for it (at least it would be constitutional) but they want to add this on to the federal income tax, i can't stop them from doing it, but americans aren't euro's we will find a way not to pay all those taxes.
it's already happening, tax revs are down by a third, but we haven't (yet) lost a thrid of all jobs, ppl are finding ways not to pay taxes, high taxes don't nesscessarily produce high revenues, but they always produce lots of tax cheaters.
if only we could figure out what Phase 2 is!

Posted by: shoey at May 27, 2009 01:20 PM (IRh55)

69 Joe Biden@13,

Simpsons Pythons did it.

John Cleese does Timothy Geithner in the one-act play "Stimulus, Shmimulus. Let's Raise Taxes."

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at May 27, 2009 01:29 PM (swuwV)

70 Given the correct circumstances, I would be amenable to a VAT. Those circumstances would involve:
1. a 75% cut in government spending (pretty much everything that didn't involve interstate highways or the military)
2. legislation requiring that the tax be used only to retire our national debt and would be "sunsetted" within not more than 5 years
3. monkeys flying out of my ass.

Posted by: ChuckD at May 27, 2009 01:45 PM (ckQml)

71
It's odd, isn't it, that the media refuses to note the obvious --
Obama's wild spending has jeopardized our finances -- except obliquely,
as here, in an article debating how to fix the problem.
But note they do not highlight the problem itself...

They do not highlight the problem, because we might get the wrong idea and think it is Obama's spending. The problem they are trying to solve is relieving us of our property. We could be running surpluses and have both medicare/medicaid and social security solvent, and they would still be advocating for more taxes. After all, we could pay school teachers even more or buy more car companies or bail out some liberal constituency if we could just tax a little more.

Posted by: kbiel at May 27, 2009 01:55 PM (HAib+)

72 Thank God I bought hundreds of pairs ofshoes and purses when I did. If they do enact this tax, I won't be buying any more til the day I die. Democrats never met a tax they didn't embrace, and with all the spending going on plus the push for the gubamint healthcare, I see them looking to tax everything they can. I think we will be seeing stool taxes (every time you take a dump, this tax will be leveraged to finance global warming initiatives), flush taxes--flush counters on toilets to provide funding for clean water, crematory tax--again to fund global warming pork and land use tax if you choose to be buried, hobo hucking taxes (to provide funding for services for the homeless), etc. You will be amazed by the creativity and ingenuity the Democrats will employ to come up with new taxes. Maybe, they will even fund a nationwide contest for those who don't pay taxes to come up with new ways for those who do. The winner gets to fly out to the Whitehouse and have a photo-op with Ogabe.

Posted by: Imelda Marcos at May 27, 2009 01:59 PM (aC/SY)

73 My idea is internet enhanced barter; with non-government issued, private electronic "currency" or credits.

Like paying your visa bill in-kind with a internet based clearinghouse of "buyers" and "sellers."

Posted by: Jean at May 27, 2009 02:07 PM (L64A6)

74 @74 Jean

My idea is internet enhanced barter; with non-government issued, private electronic "currency" or credits.

I would suspect that that is where things would be headed if it weren't for my confidence that we'll have civil unrest long before then.

Posted by: MikeO at May 27, 2009 02:21 PM (hz67i)

75 Hail the great and glorious Kenyan who will remake this country in the image of progressive states such as Cuba, Russia, and Cambodia, not to mention the awesome Zimbabwe, home of my spiritual mentor, Mugabe, he of true heroism and foresight who has created a true people's paradise.

This is what America needs on top of all the other taxes to despoil the wicked capitalists and the greedy of their goods. Power to the people and associated collectives embracing diversity and trans genderism.

I did mention I am a gay, black, transexual pre op didn't I?

Posted by: T Dub at May 27, 2009 02:46 PM (B8gqF)

76 How about a NATIONAL HOT AIR TAX to be payed by AL GORE,GREEN PEACE,ENVIROMENTAL DEFENSE and all the producers of HOT AIR

Posted by: Spurwing Plover at May 27, 2009 02:50 PM (gdLZy)

77 Tooting my own post, I posted this earlier in the Headlines section.

Anyway, here's the $$$ quote...
"Everybody who understands our long-term budget problems understands we're going to need a new source of revenue, and a VAT is an obvious candidate," said Leonard Burman, co-director of the Tax Policy Center, a joint project of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution, who testified on Capitol Hill this month about his own VAT plan. "It's common to the rest of the world, and we don't have it."

It's always about taking more, never about doing with less.

Posted by: The Hammer at May 27, 2009 03:25 PM (YBTwf)

78
"Al Qaeda terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on
America ... he's worried that someone won't read them their rights?
Government is too big ... he wants to grow it.

Congress spends too much ... he promises more.

Taxes are too high ... he wants to raise them. His tax increases are
the fine print in his economic plan, and let me be specific.

The Democratic nominee for president supports plans to raise income
taxes ... raise payroll taxes ... raise investment income taxes ...
raise the death tax ... raise business taxes ... and increase the tax
burden on the American people by hundreds of billions of dollars. My
sister Heather and her husband have just built a service station that's
now opened for business - like millions of others who run small
businesses.

How are they going to be any better off if taxes go up? Or maybe
you're trying to keep your job at a plant in Michigan or Ohio ... or
create jobs with clean coal from Pennsylvania or West Virginia ... or
keep a small farm in the family right here in Minnesota.

How are you going to be better off if our opponent adds a massive tax burden to the American economy?"

Hmmmm....seems that Sarah Palin was right all along. Get used to hearing that.

Posted by: Brian72 at May 27, 2009 03:33 PM (h6lGQ)

79 Sales taxes are inherently regressive due to the percentage of income going to taxable items. So this is a soak-the-poor tax. Couldn't happen to a nicer or more deserving group of statist cultists.

Posted by: Chip Abu Hussein Sayf Al-Dawla Islam at May 27, 2009 05:01 PM (sOtz/)

80 Hey, howzabout a sex tax?

You gotta pay $100.00 to boink some chick.

Whaddya think bout that?

Well, it would certainly make chartered accounting a much more interesting profession.

Posted by: Techie at May 27, 2009 05:20 PM (QYuCD)

81 @39: "I can't spend like a deranged lunatic and then go out and take other people's money to pay my bills, why should the government get to?"
In point of fact, you can do exactly that. It is a criminal enterprise, yes, but you can do it.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at May 27, 2009 07:53 PM (aJ6rs)

82 Valueaddedtax? Wasn't he one of the Gaul commanders at Alesia?

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at May 27, 2009 07:59 PM (aJ6rs)

83
You gotta pay $100.00 to boink some chick.

Whaddya think bout that?

Do you mean instead of or in addition to the amount we pay now?

Posted by: Merovign, Strong on His Mountain at May 27, 2009 10:29 PM (or0jG)

84 Bust a deal, face the wheel....

Two go in, one comes out.

Posted by: cheshirecat at May 28, 2009 12:39 AM (hoClB)

85 but they want to add this on to the federal income tax

Don't forget your STATE tax as well...

Posted by: cheshirecat at May 28, 2009 12:42 AM (hoClB)

86 Oh God. Seriously, let them implement a VAT and reap the political hurricane that starts.

Then, the GOP can run on cutting taxes, keeping the VAT because consumption taxes are actually what we need, but lowering payroll and corporate taxes.

Sweet.

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