Go Figure: Tax the Rich and the Ungrateful Bastards Leave
There's a must-read op-ed in today's Wall Street Journal; the gist is that states that tax the rich to make up for their budget mismanagement tend to drive the rich away. The result being the states don't actually get the taxes they want AND they end up economically weaker. A taste:
Here's the problem for states that want to pry more money out of the wallets of rich people. It never works because people, investment capital and businesses are mobile: They can leave tax-unfriendly states and move to tax-friendly states. And the evidence that we discovered in our new study for the American Legislative Exchange Council, "Rich States, Poor States," published in March, shows that Americans are more sensitive to high taxes than ever before. The tax differential between low-tax and high-tax states is widening, meaning that a relocation from high-tax California or Ohio, to no-income tax Texas or Tennessee, is all the more financially profitable both in terms of lower tax bills and more job opportunities. Updating some research from Richard Vedder of Ohio University, we found that from 1998 to 2007, more than 1,100 people every day including Sundays and holidays moved from the nine highest income-tax states such as California, New Jersey, New York and Ohio and relocated mostly to the nine tax-haven states with no income tax, including Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire and Texas. We also found that over these same years the no-income tax states created 89% more jobs and had 32% faster personal income growth than their high-tax counterparts.There are a lot of little jewels buried in there so go read the whole thing. Update: Dave in Texas sends a link that illustrates the problem:
Ending any speculation about another possible run for governor, Rochester businessman and Sabres owner B. Thomas Golisano said Thursday he will be moving his legal residence to Florida to escape New York state taxes. Golisano told a gathering of Rochester business executives that he will remain as owner of the Buffalo hockey team, but he is fleeing the Empire State to avoid paying $13,000 a day in state income taxes. [...] The billionaire earlier this year told The Buffalo News that the only thing keeping him in New York was his family. ďThe only reason Iím staying in this state is I have family here. Economically, it just doesnít make sense,Ē he said in February.Someone mentioned earlier the idea of "exit taxes" like Europe uses. Fortunately, exit taxes within the United States (that is, state-to-state) are unconstitutional.
1 Gee.The same reason socialist hypocrite John Lennon moved to the U.S.
Posted by: andycanuck at May 18, 2009 08:55 AM (MB+jN)
2 Obviously, the solution is higher federal taxes, so the little bitches can't escape.
Posted by: Techie at May 18, 2009 08:57 AM (QYuCD)
3 What kind of sucks, though, about people from New Jersey is that they move to your nice State, and proceed to make it like New Jersey.
Posted by: Alec Leamas at May 18, 2009 08:58 AM (AlKlj)
4 What this may lead to is having states, either individually or collectively, asking for more money from the Federal National government, with its solution being to raise Federal National taxes. Now individuals and business would have to leave the country to reduce their tax burdens.
Wait, they're already doing that! Time to raise taxes on the gentry and peasants!
Posted by: David in San Diego at May 18, 2009 08:58 AM (GF+6V)
5 What kind of sucks, though, about people from New Jersey is that they move to your nice State, and proceed to make it like New Jersey.
They should implement a "no voting clause" on people who relocate from the following states: California, New Jersey, New York, Illinois, and Massachusetts -- unless they volunteer to go through a reeducation center.
Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at May 18, 2009 09:03 AM (XoYY8)
6 Thank you, Captain Obvious. No offense intended towards you, Gabe, it's just ashame that this even has to be explained, it seems like common sense. Although most of the people who this information is lost on will either never see it, or they just don't care because it doesn't fit with their agenda.
If Canada wanted to, they could probably put us "out of business" right now. Good thing they're marginally more liberal than us, and the country to the south of us is one big mess. Otherwise there'd be nobody productive left here.
Posted by: yinzer at May 18, 2009 09:04 AM (/Mla1)
7 You mean actions have consequences? Shut. Up.
It's like what happened and is happening in the UK. People will find a way to leave and will find a way to avoid the taxes. It has been ever so.
Posted by: alexthechick at May 18, 2009 09:04 AM (SHHaV)
8 This is the one lesson Democrats can't learn.
Their solution? Seize their shit!!!
Posted by: EC at May 18, 2009 09:06 AM (mAhn3)
9 Time to move to China. They will own this continent pretty soon anyway.
Posted by: eman at May 18, 2009 09:07 AM (Dec0Z)
10 Oh shit! Is that Arthur Laffer? The Arthur Laffer? Laffer Curve?
Posted by: EC at May 18, 2009 09:08 AM (mAhn3)
11 Oh great, another wave of Kahlifonians.
Their loss, our "gain".
If they would just leave their liberal values with their former homes, we'd all be better off.
Posted by: Joe Mama at May 18, 2009 09:10 AM (QA8jC)
12 It's almost as if Ayn Rand was right.
Posted by: Good Lt at May 18, 2009 09:10 AM (X/QgX)
13 Pretty soon there won't be much difference between the states. People shit in their own nests, and then bring their nasty voting habits to my state.
And worse, Benito Ogabe wants to make us all the same. He won't let California attempt to balance its budget, and he thinks Governor Granholm is a role model. I've been reading too much New Deal literature lately probably, but that federal money is a way to buy votes and control how the states are run. We have to resist this any way we can.
Posted by: stace at May 18, 2009 09:13 AM (g/wgk)
14 Pardon me, would you know the way to moron gulch?
Posted by: teej at May 18, 2009 09:14 AM (lG7ds)
15 The Democrats never consider the consequences of taxation.
The Detroit Death Spiral:
People leave so revenue goes down, Dems always raise taxes to replace revenue. More people leave, businesses close, more tax, repeat. By now, property taxes are so high nothing new can be economically built without a tax abatement. It would now cost $ 40 million/year for hockey arena without one. Add City income tax, repeat.
The Michigan Death Spiral:
Refuse to make budget cuts for seven years, so State budget goes up every year. People leave, more government for fewer people and far fewer taxpayers - raise taxes. 400% cigarette tax increase begets 35 percent black market and Hezbollah trucking in smokes from the South, profits to Iran. Raise taxes, repeat. See above.
The USA Death Spiral:
Spend money like crazy. Raise taxes, health and energy costs. Kill business, repeat. See above.
Posted by: Robert at May 18, 2009 09:15 AM (cd6Ip)
They should implement a "no voting clause" on
people who relocate from the following states: California, New Jersey,
New York, Illinois, and Massachusetts -- unless they volunteer to go
through a reeducation center.
Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at May 18, 2009 09:03 AM (XoYYEither that or charge Californians a fee to move there.
People like that are stuck on stupid. How many Western states have lefty Californians ruined by moving there en masse and electing more redistributionist freakshows that wreck the state budget? See: Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado....
Rich leftists really do live in a fantasy world. The guys they love pulling the lever for are the first ones to bust the budget and reach into their pockets when they want to pay off the unions or start a new spending program. Idiots.
Posted by: fiatboomer at May 18, 2009 09:15 AM (TUDeS)
17 So now does duh1's crew MANDATE a minimum state income tax to go with ANY Federal Aid?
They certainly make drinking age 21 minimums mandatory, don't they...
Posted by: torabora at May 18, 2009 09:16 AM (4IacX)
18 Yes, that's the Laffer Curve guy. He's been on Beck's show a lot lately.
Posted by: stace at May 18, 2009 09:16 AM (g/wgk)
19 Semi-Off Topic:
I didn't see this on AoSHQ before but it seems related:
Prez. jokes about siccing IRS on Arizona State U. president and regents
Posted by: Iskandar at May 18, 2009 09:17 AM (P329s)
20 The states that figure this out in the next 4 years will be pwning the rest of the country.
Posted by: EC at May 18, 2009 09:18 AM (mAhn3)
21 Like a cartoon character the USA won't realize it has gone off the cliff and is running on air high above a desert valley until it looks down.
Posted by: eman at May 18, 2009 09:25 AM (Dec0Z)
22 At least we have Barry's promise that taxes will go down for 95% of US. If we kidnap the children of the 5%, they will stay put.
I wonder what Obama's position is on waterboarding tax evaders? Border control will soon be a priority ... you can check in but you can never leave.
Society must be taught that resistance is futile ... you are owned by the state. Individual indebted states will surrender to the fed in return for the cash.
All hail Obama ...
Posted by: bill ... I WON at May 18, 2009 09:30 AM (IKUm+)
23 Property Taxes can be a lot better than income taxes. For one, the super rich inheritors like John Kerry have to pay for their lifestyle... what they take out of society, while up and comers who live modestly are not penalizes for their successful work... what they contribute to society. Thus, we have more contribution and less taking away.
If you want to live in a castle, you have the choice, but you can also drastically reduce your tax rate if you wish to. It's within your control to some extent. With income, the only way to quit paying taxes is to quit in general. that's bad for everyone.
Posted by: Dark Halo at May 18, 2009 09:32 AM (8jYMc)
24 Shocking. Almost as shocking as the sun rising in the east.
Maybe it would get some play in the NY Times if Josh Marshall cited it...
Posted by: Blogluddite at May 18, 2009 09:33 AM (fDWFP)
25 Aren't the dims the self proclaimed smartest people in the world? When they put in place a tax/debt spiral, (Detroit) the only taxpayers they have left are those who cannot afford to leave. And they don't pay taxes. And yet in their personal lives, they cut back on activities that are heavily taxed. Can't see the forest for all those damn trees in the way. Educated way beyond their intelligence.
Posted by: Texan at May 18, 2009 09:35 AM (R58cM)
26 Otherwise there'd be nobody productive left here.
Wait first, yinzer. We might get a Conservative majority in the near future (that would be the equivalent of "moderate but not RINO" GOP); and see how Obama's carbon rape tax "works" out. But my genuine hope is that both countries become reformed with the coming of 2010 rather than we hosers going just conservative enough toattract American entrepreneurs and big business.
Posted by: andycanuck at May 18, 2009 09:35 AM (MB+jN)
27 The thing is, is that the consequences of taxing anything are obvious. If you want to curtail an activity, tax it. The left knows this. They floated the idea ofa huge gas tax when the spike of last summer slackenedto encourage less usage. The soda tax is another example.
It just boggles the mind, sometimes.
Posted by: The Outlaw in that Heavenly Hall at May 18, 2009 09:37 AM (E0EDC)
28 Dark Halo -
Actually I find wealth taxes to be worse than income taxes (assuming an non-asinine rate). By taxing wealth instead of income, you make saving worthless, because anything you put away now can be subject to future tax increases.
Posted by: Ryan Frank at May 18, 2009 09:38 AM (tPQKj)
29 Dis is not a problem whatsoevah. Ve vill zimply inztitue a "moving away" tax dat vill be so high, it vill be impossuble for people to leave.
Posted by: Ahnuld, the One True Republican at May 18, 2009 09:39 AM (wWwJR)
30 And good link about asshole's "joke", Iskandar.
I recall from just afterthe Clinton years a conservative think tank member writing that before Clinton, as an entity of its type, the think tank wouldget a full audit about once every 5 years, but after Clinton took office and the tank criticized him often, the full audits happened every year.
Posted by: andycanuck at May 18, 2009 09:40 AM (MB+jN)
31 Dis is not a problem whatsoevah. Ve vill zimply inztitue a "moving away" tax dat vill be so high, it vill be impossuble for people to leave.
Laugh now, but I could completely see that becoming a reality, at least on the federal level. As a matter of fact, I expect it, now that we have a war on tax-havens.
Posted by: yinzer at May 18, 2009 09:42 AM (/Mla1)
32 It's like they say, the states are labs. I try to explain this to lefties and it's like trying to teach my dog Algebra. I you want to see what's working and what's not, just look at the numbers.
Laffer mentions the job creation stat that I watched with amazement all year last year. Every month, Texas was creating more than half of all new jobs in the US! If Obama wants to "save or create" a 3 jillion jobs, maybe he should get some advice from the folks who are actually having some success at this.
Honestly, what is so hard to understand about this? Why do we have to go through this stupid shit again? I remember the 70's and I didn't like it, except for going out dancing and getting wasted every Thursday (no cover charge) night in college. That was fun.
Posted by: stace at May 18, 2009 09:43 AM (g/wgk)
33 Laugh now, but I could completely see that becoming a reality, at least
on the federal level. As a matter of fact, I expect it, now that we
have a war on tax-havens.
While I can see this happening, what I don't see is how the Congress scum will explain this to their constituents.
Wait. Sorry, I had a momentary lapse where I thought that Congress scum give a f* about what their constituents think.
Posted by: rockhead at May 18, 2009 09:46 AM (DvaIL)
34 "It's like they say, the states are labs."
No,they're not labs. They're Dobermans. A pack of feral Dobermans.
Except, like, Rhode Island Delaware. They're Min-Pins.
Posted by: comatus at May 18, 2009 09:50 AM (XTm8J)
35 andycanuck, I saw Bill O'Reilly say on his show a few weeks ago that during the Clinton admin, he was audited every year for several years. It only stopped when he raised a fuss and protested it.
Posted by: stace at May 18, 2009 09:50 AM (g/wgk)
36 The obvious solution is to do what most foreign governments do ..
Charge an "exit fee"
Posted by: Neo at May 18, 2009 09:51 AM (5d1ix)
37 And one more thing about the IRS, then I'll shut up. Glenn's article only mentions Nixon. From what I've read, FDR pioneered using the IRS against political enemies, and he was blatant about it. I'd be shocked if presidents like LBJ and JFK didn't use the IRS that way too.
Posted by: stace at May 18, 2009 09:55 AM (g/wgk)
38 Tax rich liberal demacrats like the KENNEDYS,GORES, and all those wealthy hollywood brats who always support the demacreep party
Posted by: Spurwing Plover at May 18, 2009 09:57 AM (1PfqE)
39 Hmmm. Time to spin up the job search jump drive and head for Texas.
Posted by: eman at May 18, 2009 09:57 AM (Dec0Z)
Time to move to China. They will own this continent pretty soon anyway.
I'm already here.
Posted by: chinaacid at May 18, 2009 09:57 AM (6gdMG)
Yep, this has been happening in cities for decades, now we're seeing it become more pronounced at the state level. The rust belt cities like Cleveland a and Detroit should be used of an example of what happens when you run off the creative, talented, and educated people who create wealth. You get a shift in population where the creative are gone, replaced almost exclusively by people with little or no skills suitable for employment in a knowledge based society. Of course, they will elect Dems that will drive off the remaining talent, leaving welfare cities where you either work for the gov't or receive payments from the gov't.
As this happens at the state level, I am really interested to see what happens to the schools. A couple years back, in Toledo, the local rag was lamenting the fact that the schools sucked and the kids knew nothing. As if it caused the decline of the city. Anyone with a brain could see that failed schools are the result, not the cause, of economic decline. Alas, the editors either failed to realize this, or chose not to, instead demanding more funding for the awful schools.
Posted by: bunny boy at May 18, 2009 09:58 AM (YsSn7)
42 it's already been said here. the feds will be the new "distributors"' as shown when the stimulus money went to pay states' operational debt, not jump start any economic activity. that was just a taste.
Posted by: mark c at May 18, 2009 10:12 AM (SBIko)
What kind of sucks, though, about people from New
Jersey is that they move to your nice State, and proceed to make it
like New Jersey. Posted by: Alec Leamas at May 18, 2009 08:58 AM (AlKlj)
There's nothing worse than a NJ transplant.
From what I've read, FDR pioneered using the IRS
against political enemies, and he was blatant about it. I'd be shocked
if presidents like LBJ and JFK didn't use the IRS that way too.
Posted by: stace at May 18, 2009 09:55 AM (g/wgk)
LBJ and JFK both used the IRS. JFK was particularly devious -- he was the first presidential candidate to use private investigators on his enemies. Knowing the kind of dirty tactics used by the Kennedys, a paranoid Nixon emulated them. The only unique thing about Nixon is that he got caught.
Posted by: Tinian at May 18, 2009 10:13 AM (70sTG)
44 Some lefty will refute this study using the word "fair" at least a kajillion times.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at May 18, 2009 10:13 AM (B+qrE)
45 George Mason University Mercatus center did an interesting study on Freedom in the 50 states.
Overall freedom (personal/economic): The best - New Hampshire, Colorado, and South Dakota.
The Worst: Rhode Island, New Jersey, and New York.
See how your state ranks.
Posted by: Cheri at May 18, 2009 10:22 AM (AQtrD)
46 Some guy on Kudlow, CNBC just now tried to tell the panel that more jobs were created this month. Hahahha it was funny to watch as they all jumped all over him and described the current representatives for the administration as "you guys"
Posted by: muffy at May 18, 2009 10:25 AM (zplc6)
47 Some guy on Kudlow, CNBC just now tried to tell the panel that more jobs were created this month.
Orszag said the recession's basically over. This must be encouraging news for the legions of Obama cultists who just graduated from 4 years of indoctrination.
Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at May 18, 2009 10:36 AM (XoYY8)
48 Gates and Buffet stayed. Some will leave some will stay. Some have already left. Patriotic Americans leaving because their taxes have gone up ? yawn
Posted by: John ryan at May 18, 2009 10:40 AM (behNH)
49 bunny boy @42, yes, it's been a regular comedy routine to watch flailing industrial cities lament the loss of "The Creative Class" and try to stem it by establishing SWPL zones, replete with converted warehouse lofts, no-smoking fern bars, and cholesterol police.
It's a sweet life for the couple of hundred unemployedable Arts grad students who get the subsidies...I haven't seen it re-open any steel mills or glass plants, though.Note that the GOP is not immune to this approach--it wasRepubs who put the "Festival Marketplace" where Tiedtke's used to be. Kites! Candles! Buckeye/Wolverines!
Have they come up withthe new name for COSI yet? It's a microcosm of self-hate that they dynamited Jeep House and the Willys Admin building, then outsourced a "science and industry" museum from Cow-Town.
Posted by: comatus at May 18, 2009 10:40 AM (XTm8J)
50 Interesting article, but I'd take it with a grain of salt. Correlation is not causality. There are many reasons why people move from one state to another. I live for most of the year in NJ, and have met many people who want to leave. But they usually don't give taxes as the reason. They're just tired of the cold weather, bad traffic, high auto insurance rates, and general atmosphere of union and Mob corruption. If they do mention taxes, it's always property taxes, not income taxes. (NJ property taxes are roughly double the national average.)
I'm not sure the study established that high earners are more likely to move than less affluent people, though this seems to be the authors' interpretation. Even if this is true, it may have less to do with taxes than with the fact that it's simply easier for high earners to pick up and go. People with money have more options than people who are barely getting by. Often the "rich"have homes in two (or more) states anyway, so it's relatively easy for them to make the transition.
The authors mention NH as a state with no income or sales tax but excellent schools. They forget to to point out that schools are funded by property taxes, and NH's property taxes are among the highest in the nation.
Posted by: sauropod at May 18, 2009 10:41 AM (r45p0)
51 Patriotic Americans leaving because their taxes have gone up ? yawn
Right, because it's "patriotic" to pay taxes. Our drooling, doorknob-humping imbecile of a Vice President told us so. It's "patriotic" to just take it in the ass as a thug gangster from a lawless banana republic like Cook County vaporizes three or four generations of yet-to-be-created wealth so he can create a permanent patronage system that ensures that all of us "patriots" will get to enjoy the comforts of Dem-owned welfare shitholes like Detroit, Oakland, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and D.C.
Patriotism. It's whatever the fuck the left says it is. And the new stupid.
Posted by: VJay at May 18, 2009 10:48 AM (gQ+XA)
52 I only used the IRS against people who deserved it. You know, long haired pinko commies.
Posted by: Dick_Nixon at May 18, 2009 10:49 AM (kaOJx)
53 "The states that figure this out in the next 4 years will be pwning the rest of the country."
Those states are all located in the Southeast. Aren't you glad to be part of a narrow-minded regional party that is still creating wealth, not redistributing it?
Posted by: Teleprompter Messiah at May 18, 2009 10:53 AM (H6mNc)
54 I keep my house in good order under the expectation that I will be audited every year.
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at May 18, 2009 10:58 AM (GtYrq)
Ah, yes, Portside/Festival Marketplace. Amusing and depressing to that people thought it would revitalize Toledo. Can't remember where I saw it, but someone summed up the problem of rust belt revitalization efforts in one sentence: Real estate development does not equal economic development. If a mid-size city like Toledo can come up with Portside, I fear what some of these governors and legislatures are gonna dream up now that the stimulus is flowing their way.
Posted by: bunny boy at May 18, 2009 11:00 AM (YsSn7)
56 The problem is these dumb fucks from the high tax states end up coming into redstates and voting for democrats.
Posted by: headhunt23 at May 18, 2009 11:04 AM (OMCBg)
57 "I'm not sure the study established that high earners are more likely to move than less affluent people, though this seems to be the authors' interpretation." -- sauropod above
While you might be correct, I don't think it's a stretch to think the more wealth one has the more mobility one has. While poor people can buy a bus ticket fairly easily we do have a couple of test cases mentioned above.
Did the poor people stay or go in Detroit? Cleveland? Having lived near Detroit for several years I know the answer to be only the poor stayed. Everybody else left. Everybody. While some of the poor may have left too, the rate of leaving is not the same.
And that is simply a fact. There is no interpretation.
Mine is not a statistical claim, btw. Mine is a claim about the entire population.
Posted by: Nom de Blog at May 18, 2009 11:09 AM (fnU+z)
58 Yes, people are bailing on CA and going elsewhere. They are goingto places like CO, AZ, NM. People in MI are moving to places like Atlanta, GA. In every one of those places you can see the voting demographics changing to Commiecrat. The very same damn things that ruined their home state are now being done in their ďnewĒ State. They canít connect the presence of unions, high taxes, and big government with failure, In short they are stupid. As someone said, there should be a moratorium on their ability to vote until they go through a reeducation camp that teaches them capitalism.
On a related note Fox is highlighting a story about CA this morning. The story; CA issuing a series of voter initiatives to raise taxes by billions in order to ďbalanceĒ the budget. Not a single damn one of the ďinitiativesĒ put forth by the legislature involves any budget cuts (otr at least those mentioned by Fox). Typical Democrap State.
If they do this like the school system in my county when the tax increase is defeated at the polls during the normal election they will wait a few months and hold a ďspecialĒ election. When that is done the only people going down to vote are the ones who are employed by the State and the tax increase will pass.
Posted by: Vic at May 18, 2009 11:12 AM (BYokb)
59 Two reasons why this doesn't matter in the long run. First, the people that leave end up turning their adopted state into a replica of the one they left. Second, the state they left continues to spend like crazy then gets a federal bailout, which transfers money from the "good" states to the "bad" ones. Hosed either way.
Posted by: KYle at May 18, 2009 11:15 AM (mfj5a)
60 Texas gets ya with the property taxes though real estate is still relatively cheap here.
Posted by: polynikes at May 18, 2009 08:58 AM (m2CN7)
Yeah, our property taxes are high. However, I went in and argued with tax assessment, and got it lowered 15% last year. Homestead exemption. Over 65 exemption. I own a 2800 square foot house that I paid 175k four years ago. In a suburb. With a lawn and trees, fenced. Same house in California, 600k/700k. or more.
On the other hand, no state income tax, right to work state, snow of one inch or more shuts down everything here in Dallas, most of the state is conservative with the exception of Austin, San Antonio, now Dallas. Building is still going on, at least 4 sets of big cranes within 10 miles of my office. Inner city schools can suck, but most of the rest are pretty good. Traffic sucks, however. And the interstate highways between Dallas and Houston/Austin/San Antonio have been being worked on since time began.
I agree with some comments above, people are welcome to move here, but I wish they would leave any liberal leftist views at the border. Wishful thinking, I guess.
Posted by: mikeyslaw at May 18, 2009 11:21 AM (QMGr1)
Dis is not a problem whatsoevah. Ve vill zimply inztitue a
"moving away" tax dat vill be so high, it vill be impossuble for people
Laugh now, but I could completely see that becoming a reality, at
least on the federal level. As a matter of fact, I expect it, now that
we have a war on tax-havens.
Too late, in Calif. at least, the bastards are already working on a 55% exit tax.
It's been in the works since last summer.
Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 18, 2009 11:27 AM (oT+Ek)
62 Okay, I'm thinkin' (yeah, I know) that Tx.-N.M.-Az.-Ok.-Ks.-Neb.-Wyo.-Mon.-Alaska etc. seccede and form a new country, you know, one conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. That we are endowed by our creator with rights like life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. The right to posess coercive force to protect those rights. Pretty novel idea huh? What do ya say? Should we give it a try? We could charge the nutbags from the coasts to travel through our country to get back and forth.
Posted by: teej at May 18, 2009 11:30 AM (lG7ds)
63 Yeah, our property taxes are high. However, I went in and argued with tax assessment, and got it lowered 15% last year. Homestead exemption. Over 65 exemption. I own a 2800 square foot house that I paid 175k four years ago. In a suburb. With a lawn and trees, fenced. Same house in California, 600k/700k. or more.
Actually when I checked the old house area I used to live in CA in 1977 (Castro Valley, CA) the houses are going for around $500 per square foot for houses built in the 1950s. Based on that, your 2800 square foot house would go for 1.4 million, not 600 or 700 thousand. And that is on a postage stamp sized lot that would barely hold the house and forget about watering your weeds; that is forbidden.
The other thing that is left off in these discussions is the overall tax structure. The State income tax is not the only tax issue. The big government liberals like to advertise the South as a ďlow tax area when it is really not. My State of SC has a 7% income tax and this is the common tax rate of most States. Where they get you here is in the sin taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes. SC has the second highest taxes on beer in the country and in the top 10 for liquor taxes. Property taxes on autos and boats are the highest in the country and real property, contrary to the lying assholes, is about average for the country. What makes the property taxes lower here is the value of the property is lower. And the sales tax in my county is one of the highest in the country. It is 8% on all items except prepared foods. On that it is 10%.
If you want low tax move to WY; I have been looking at that. No income tax, no State sales tax. I have been looking at Worland the area. A local sales tax of 5% and very low property tax (about 1/10th of what we have here in SC). The only problem is that it gets damn cold there in the winter and my wife does not want to go there.
Posted by: Vic at May 18, 2009 11:43 AM (BYokb)
64 A reverse Grapes of Wrath:
The narrative begins from Tom Joad's
point of view just after his early release from his prison sentence for smuggling incandescent light bulbs.
On his journey home, he meets a now-former Yoga Instructor/Substance
Abuse Counselor, Jim Casy, whom he
remembers from his childhood, and the two travel together.When
arrive at his San Mateo home, they find it deserted. Disconcerted
and confused, he and Casy go to his Uncle John's home nearby where he
finds his family loading a Toyota Prius with what remains of their
possessions; the economy was destroyed by massive tax increases and
rocketing energy costs
and as a result, the family was slapped with impossible tax leins on
their properties and had to default on their loans. With their jobs outsourced, the Joads seek solace in hope; hope inscribed on the Valentines which are distributed everywhere in California, describing the beautiful and fruitful country of Colorado
and high pay and skiing to be had in that state. The Joads, along with Jim Casy,
are seduced by this advertising and invest everything they have into
the journey. Although leaving California means possibly coming into contact with "bitter-clingers", Tom
decides that it is a risk, albeit minimal, that he has to take.
Posted by: Deety at May 18, 2009 11:58 AM (aVzyR)
65 I wonder how many Hollywood limousine liberals establish their "official" residences outside of CA and within a low tax state.
Posted by: Warden at May 18, 2009 12:07 PM (KXbGD)
66 Gee.The same reason socialist hypocrite John Lennon moved to the U.S.
I got ten bucks that says this was a major part of the Madonna/Guy Ritchie split.
Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 18, 2009 12:13 PM (oT+Ek)
Texas is a bargin even with a comparatively high sales tax compared to the NE with skyhigh sales taxes, property taxes, personal property taxes, and hidden cable, telephone, you name it taxes.
The goal of the Lefties is to equalize taxes so there is no escape. Hell that's why I established a residence in Costa Rica.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at May 18, 2009 12:43 PM (B8gqF)
68 Hey, some of us are conservatives fleeing high tax states. Believe me, I know why I'm leaving and there's no way in hell I'd want to bring the same broken system of government with me. Maybe there's a way to test people to see how they'll vote in their new state. Then you can filter out the stupid lefties and make them stay in their self-made utopia.
Posted by: wherestherum at May 18, 2009 12:46 PM (gofDd)
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Posted by: Barry da man Obamacan at May 18, 2009 12:47 PM (NLtVk)
70 FTA: ''Someone mentioned earlier the idea of "exit taxes" like Europe uses.
Fortunately, exit taxes within the United States (that is,
state-to-state) are unconstitutional.''
Since when did the Constitution limit anything these cockholster asshats ever want to do. President Chairman Bō Hussein surely won't care what the Constitution says; he's already shredding it along with The Declaration of Independence.
They're changing my country from 'The Fruited Plain' to 'The Banana Boat Republic.'
Dam, I hate the dihimiKKKratģ party.
Posted by: TennDon at May 18, 2009 01:08 PM (o6Yv2)
71 Be careful when comparing tax rates (percentages) across states...
We get hit twice in CA because stuff is more expensive AND the rates are higher.
Posted by: KLL at May 18, 2009 01:29 PM (/5Axw)
72 Fortunately, exit taxes within the United States (that is, state-to-state) are unconstitutional.Only if challenged.
Posted by: spmat at May 18, 2009 01:34 PM (P9eBz)
73 Gabriel Malor is absolutely correct on the unconstitutional bit.
There has been no Constitution shredding.
Chill with that overheated rhetoric.
We don't need to sound like the Kos idiots.
Posted by: Nom de Blog at May 18, 2009 01:38 PM (fnU+z)
74 Pretty sure NJ has an exit tax.
Posted by: KRKahn at May 18, 2009 01:41 PM (AzpCr)
75 Exit taxes are only unconstitutional until someone can look at the Constitution with 'Empathy' ... then I'm sure they can find a reason for exit, entrance, and staying put taxes as well
Posted by: Red at May 18, 2009 01:48 PM (cywZp)
Pretty sure NJ has an exit tax.
I think I've got an appropriate quote here...
"I've gotten out of Beirut before. I think I can get out of New Jersey."
"Many have tried and failed... The entire population, in fact."
Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at May 18, 2009 02:00 PM (65c/h)
77 >>Fortunately, exit taxes within the United States (that is, state-to-state) are unconstitutional. --Gabe
You say "unconstitutional" as though that phrase might have some deterrent effect on Da Won and his crew of tax-cheating assholes. From what I've seen, Obama jettisoned any pretense of obeying the Constitution from Day Won.
Posted by: sf at May 18, 2009 02:19 PM (xz5dP)
78 Fortunately, exit taxes within the United States (that is, state-to-state) are unconstitutional.
Like that's stopping them. Jesus, this is war and the two teams are the Democrats and America.
Posted by: A. Liberal at May 18, 2009 03:08 PM (XH/G8)
79 Laugh now, but I could completely see that becoming a reality, at least
on the federal level. As a matter of fact, I expect it, now that we
have a war on tax-havens.
You need to bone up on your tax law. It already is a reality at the federal level. Renouncing your US citizenship triggers a one-time tax of (I believe) 40% on all your assets. Assets, not income. They slipped that one in on a Veterans Affairs bill a year or two back.
Furthermore, if you leave the country for the purpose of avoiding US taxes (not sure who determines that, but I'm pretty sure it ain't you), you are liable for full income taxes in perpetuity.
Posted by: Ace's liver at May 18, 2009 04:42 PM (LtIsn)
80 Ace's Liver;
You owe full Federal Taxes on all income earned in the US (say, via investments, SSI) for 10 years after leaving the US and "renouncing citizenship for the purpose of avoiding taxation." Which is every time, according to them, needless to say.
There are a few ways of getting around some of the methods they have of making sure you don't leave without a complete and thorough rape, but you have to be very, very careful. I read in the Caymanian Compass a few years back some guy had his flight from Miami delayed and overstayed the 14-day limit per year by an hour or so and it cost him several million dollars due to some twisted provision of the tax laws.
I'm planning to leave the US and it is unbelievably difficult to figure out how to do it without them clawing chunks out of your flesh every inch of the way. And you better believe it's just going to get worse.
Didn't this whole slavery thing get worked out back in the late 1800s? No?
Posted by: Flubber at May 18, 2009 06:08 PM (/ykD9)
Link doesn't work.
Posted by: Flubber at May 18, 2009 06:10 PM (/ykD9)
82 The next problem will be when Obama raises the Federal taxes on the rich and they decide to leave the USA and become citizens of other countries. Mexico and Canada might even establish areas for them to live to draw them to their country.
At least Obama's wish of spreading the wealth will be accomplished, except the wealth will be spread to other countries.
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Our Lunch with David "Glengarry Glen Ross" Mamet
The House of Love: Paul Krugman
A Michael Moore Mystery (TM)
Liberal Consistency and Other Myths
Kepler's Laws of Liberal Media Bias
John Kerry-- The Splunge! Candidate
"Divisive" Politics & "Attacks on Patriotism" (very long)
The Donkey ("The Raven" parody)