Supreme Court - Feds Can't Use ID Theft Law Against Illegal Immigrants (chad)

A unanimous Supreme Court ruled Monday the government has been overstepping the boundaries of identity theft legislation when targeting immigrants who use phony citizenship documents to acquire jobs.
source

Gotta love it.

Posted by: Open Blog at 06:13 PM

Comments

1 WTF?

Posted by: lmg at May 10, 2009 06:18 PM (A/vgC)

2 Ridiculous.

Posted by: Vercingetorix at May 10, 2009 06:18 PM (JUFB3)

The key paragraph:

"The justices said that the government, in order to prove such charges, must demonstrate that a defendant “knowingly” hijacked the identity of somebody else. In the case before the justices, an Illinois illegal immigrant steelworker was charged under the statute after submitting a fake Social Security number that, without the worker’s knowledge, happened to match a real number."

Millions of illegal aliens submitting millions of fake SSNs. Most of those HAVE to be actual SSNs of American citizens. ID theft is still a crime, regardless.

But hey, next time somebody gets caught doing something illegal, just bring this up. Just claim you didn't "knowingly" break the law, and suddenly ignorance of the law IS an excuse. That this was unanimous is kind of sickening.

Posted by: paranoidpyro at May 10, 2009 06:19 PM (3WHpf)

4 paranoidpyro, the statute in question includes the requirement that the alien knowingly used the SSN of another. That's why the Court was unanimous--because the law clearly requires that the use be knowing, not merely accidental. Your beef is with Congress, not the Court.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at May 10, 2009 06:23 PM (rWvvO)

Can't we at least pretend that the laws apply?

Just a little?

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at May 10, 2009 06:24 PM (8MuSQ)

6 This is why Obama is not the problem. The whole system is so infected that nothing works anymore. We need a governmental reboot. Hell, we need a whole new operating system. Open source, anyone?

Posted by: lmg at May 10, 2009 06:24 PM (A/vgC)

7 Gabe: that makes sense. I had a suspicion that if it was unanimous it must be a bad law.

Posted by: paranoidpyro at May 10, 2009 06:24 PM (3WHpf)

8 Yes, the statute is at fault.

Posted by: eman at May 10, 2009 06:25 PM (Dec0Z)

9 It's just a technicality. It's a unanimous decision. These things happen.

Posted by: JohnJ at May 10, 2009 06:26 PM (KIVK0)

10 Can't we at least pretend that the laws apply?

I can't figure out the confusion over the illegal part about illegal immigration .

Posted by: Bill D. Cat at May 10, 2009 06:27 PM (d0YiG)

11 Bill D. Cat, illegal immigration is a civil violation. It's not a crime per se.

Posted by: Janet Napolitano at May 10, 2009 06:28 PM (WzWFC)

12 During the 'Homeland Security USA' show earlier this year I could not believe when the US Agriculture Enforcement Agent explained that the foreigners coming in with illegal types of food did not get fined because fines were not applicable for those who did not understand English. Then she turned around and fined an American $300 for having a cold cut sandwich his mother made him in his checked bag.

Totally idiotic.

Posted by: Fred Fry at May 10, 2009 06:29 PM (UNLsg)

13 SCOTUS are a motley collection of fucksticks. All of 'em.

When a person uses a SSN that is not theirs they break the law and if they are an illegal alien they get deported. Or at least should be.

Every legitimate job I have had has required I SHOW a SS CARD.

These "people" are beyond stupid .... there isn't a word for it.

Posted by: torabora at May 10, 2009 06:36 PM (B2zBF)

14 Well, since it's an open blog, and it involves the Supreme Court, and Gabe might still be reading, I have a question (or perhaps just a recurring nightmare):

What are the chances that Obama will use one cooked-up crisis or another to get Congress to add several more seats to the Supreme Court? I know FDR tried it and got shot down, but that was mostly due to A) Southern Democrats who were afraid that the new justices would promote civil rights at the expense of states' rights, and B) A press skeptical of blatant overreaches of Executive authority by Roosevelt.

Whereas now we have as compliant a Congress as any President has had in the history of the country, and as sycophantic a media as has existed this side of the Iron Curtain.

I can so clearly imagine some economic, or health-related, or security-related, or complexity-related crisis requiring the addition of 2 - 4 Justices. And with a filibuster-proof Senate, what's stopping them?

("The Law is far more complex than it used to be. It isn't right to leave it in the hands of just 9 people. Expanding the Court means expanding the representation of all Americans on the Court. With the increasingly diverse populations in America, it is increasingly important that all Americans can find a voice in our Judicial system...."

I can see it; I can hear it; I'm going to visit my doctor tomorrow to get him to change my medication.)

Posted by: notropis at May 10, 2009 06:42 PM (8w9yH)

Hmmm, better idea.

If someone uses my SSN to get a job, they owe me 100% of whatever they make. Cash, 1st day of every month. Since they got the job illegally, there'll be vig. 2.5% per week, on the whole amount, until totally repaid. Any unpaid vig goes to principal, and all retroactive to the date that they got the job.

Seems fair to me....

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at May 10, 2009 06:50 PM (8MuSQ)

16 Can we still threaten to sic the IRS and SEC on them and their children?

Posted by: bergerbilder at May 10, 2009 06:53 PM (u61UO)

17 Oh wow... so in other words, illegals need not worry about obeying certain American laws the rest of "us" (or, actually, more accurately put, we) will go to jail for if we violate ?

Sweet deal for the Wetbacks.

What other laws do not apply to them?

Posted by: CoolCzech at May 10, 2009 06:56 PM (iafWn)

18 OT

media going nuts over this ---

perhaps they could explain it's because the arabs think obama is a muslim, but i doubt you'll ever hear that.

With Obama set to deliver a speech directed to the Muslim world in Egypt next month, a new poll shows that he's far more popular in the Arab world than is the nation he leads.

The poll of 7,000 adults in Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan – conducted by Ipsos and first reported by Reuters – showed just 33 percent with a positive view of the U.S., while 48 percent saw Obama favorably.

Notably, Obama's favorable rating was lowest in Egypt, a major recipient of U.S. foreign aid, where 35 percent viewed him favorably – and just 22 percent had a favorable view of the U.S.

Posted by: Anti-Harkonnen Freedom Fighter at May 10, 2009 07:01 PM (5r0Tz)

Words matter

After petitioner Flores-Figueroa, a Mexican citizen, gave his employer counterfeit Social Se-curity and alien registration cards containing his name but otherpeople’s identification numbers, he was arrested and charged withtwo immigration offenses and aggravated identity theft. Flores moved for acquittal on the latter charge, claiming that the Govern-ment could not prove that he knew that the documents’ numbers were assigned to other people. The District Court agreed with theGovernment that the word “knowingly” in §1028A(a)(1) does not mod-ify the statute’s last three words, “of another person,” and, after trial,found Flores guilty on all counts. The Eighth Circuit affirmed.

Held: Section §1028(a)(1) requires the Government to show that the defendant knew that the means of identification at issue belonged to another person. As a matter of ordinary English grammar, “know-ingly” is naturally read as applying to all the subsequently listedelements of the crime. Where a transitive verb has an object, listen-ers in most contexts assume that an adverb (such as “knowingly”) that modifies the verb tells the listener how the subject performed the entire action, including the object.

Posted by: popcorn at May 10, 2009 07:07 PM (ILLoz)

20 Easy fix. Insert language that says "or any number (real or false) submitted by a person who does not possess a legal SSN". Tighten the language up as the SC directs - should only take an afternoon.

Posted by: Inspector Asshole at May 10, 2009 07:07 PM (XkNfh)

21 Ah, this is kid stuff. Wait until they decide that the 2nd Amendment is unconstitutional. Or something...

Posted by: JS at May 10, 2009 07:10 PM (9q069)

22 It's frustrating but it seems like the right decision.

There must be other laws available to deal with this, something about falsifying a record or something.

The question is, will this Justice Department try and find a law that's actually applicable?

Posted by: DrewM. at May 10, 2009 07:25 PM (PLGGU)

23
Lisa on the Simpsons new episode just now:

Mom mentioned the Fountainhead by Ayn Rand

Lisa:

"Moooom...Isn't that the bible of right wing losers?"

Posted by: Anti-Harkonnen Freedom Fighter at May 10, 2009 07:26 PM (5r0Tz)

24 With Obama set to deliver a speech directed to the Muslim world in Egypt next month, a new poll shows that he's far more popular in the Arab world than is the nation he leads.

Actually, he's not so popular with The Muslim Brotherhood, who are boycotting his speech.

Much to his chagrin no doubt.

Posted by: Blazer at May 10, 2009 07:29 PM (+FzLa)

25 So what protections does the SC offer me when the IRS comes after me for the unpaid taxes Jorge ran up on my "unknowingly used" SSN? How about if I miswrite a number on my SSN the next time I get a job or a bank account or a credit card?
Okay, sounds like a badly-written law. But if so, who is going to fix it? When?
As was written above, the system is broken. We have so many complex and contradictory laws the system is beginning to display mathematically chaotic behavior.

Posted by: Flubber at May 10, 2009 07:31 PM (g0nz7)

26 21 Ah, this is kid stuff. Wait until they decide that the 2nd Amendment is unconstitutional. Or something...

what's that phrase I'm looking for....

oh yeah,

From my cold dead fuckin' hands...

Posted by: UncleFacts at May 10, 2009 07:31 PM (vZVv7)

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28 If I was married to Maya, I would have her transform into a different supermodel every night...

Posted by: CoolCzech at May 10, 2009 07:35 PM (iafWn)

29 Space 1999 theme.

Posted by: Blazer at May 10, 2009 07:38 PM (+FzLa)

30 At the risk of having my IP address revoke or something, let me say this:

I am not a lawyer.

I think that a proper-thinking, small-government consevative should think the Supreme Court got this one right.

We already have laws against forgery and so on. Let us hire people to enforce them

We didn't need more laws to redefine forgery and the more trendy "identity theft".

"Identity theft" occurs when you transact business in the name of some other person and there ought to be laws against that, and they ought to be enforced. The fact you forged copies of the other persons paperwork is not the key issue and I would think you can and should be prosecuted for the forgery.

But redefining forgery as identity theft is just wrong. As they said.

Posted by: Larry Sheldon at May 10, 2009 07:44 PM (OmeRL)

31 While frustrating, this makes sense. They aren't deliberately trying to steal someone's identity, they are just forging ID. Use another law to get them, don't use this one.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 10, 2009 07:49 PM (PQY7w)

32 Seems to me that if you 1) are here illegally (funny how that takes care of almost every "quandary, huh?) and 2) claim to have a SS number that you could not possibly have, you are guilty. "I didn't KNOW that the number I could not possibly have had anyway, belonged to this particular guy" seems kind of, stoopid...

Posted by: JS at May 10, 2009 07:53 PM (9q069)

33
Okay, so if a black guy murders a homo he can use the defense that he didn't know his victim was either white or homosexual when he called him a fag, it was merely a coincidence?

Posted by: D-ling at May 10, 2009 07:55 PM (QeV0C)

34 along these lines -

Dan Choi, Gay! Arabic-Translating! Lieutenant(!!) decided to Tell(!) despite nobody asking.

The papers and various lefty blogs are saying that Obama is "firing" Dan Choi from the military. Ummmmm ... mmmmmmmm ......... mmmmmmm .....
... mmmmmmmm ......... mmmmmmm .....
... mmmmmmmm ......... mmmmmmm .....
... mmmmmmmm ......... mmmmmmm .....
... mmmmmmmm ......... mmmmmmm .....

My recollection of *my* military service was that the military didn't so much "fire" you as "discharge" you. Under a variety of circumstances. Ranging from "Honorable" to "General" to "Honorable - Wicked Pinto" to "Other than Honorable" et cetera.

Dan Choi ... "fired"?

Not in Reality-Land.

.

Posted by: BumperStickerist at May 10, 2009 07:55 PM (ruzrP)

35 paranoidpyro, next we have to adopt the Japanese system. Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law. If we didn't already have such law every democrat in the country would be in prison. They prove their ignorance every day. I haven't respected the court system for years and I have never been in court for any reason. I just read and hear enough to know they are not to be trusted. The biggest criminals and violators of the constitution are always lawyers/judges or they are a close second behind democrat politicians.

Posted by: Scrapiron at May 10, 2009 08:07 PM (GkYyh)

36 Just more legal logic gone amuck. If the worker thought the SS number would work then he had knowledge that it was real thus belonged to someone else. This is just like a finding under the intentional act exclusion in an insurance policy where coverage is found where an insured under the policy hits someone in a fight and permanently injures them but gets coverage because they did not intend on it.

Posted by: polynikes at May 10, 2009 08:09 PM (hpj4Y)

37 28

So that's what little it takes for a guy's fantasy to include the word marriage all on his own.

Hear that ladies, all they deeply want is for you to be thousands of different women.

I'll regret blogging private thoughts like this on all the mothers' special day, but this has just triggered my own fantasy which involves a trillionaire, rambunctious and "fully functional" robot who looks like Russell Crowe after yet another bar room brawl.

Come to think of it, why get so complicated? The real Russell Crowe is close enough to that!

Posted by: sis at May 10, 2009 08:10 PM (hm0CN)

38
lol @ the military translator getting fired

A few years ago the Left was trying to push a meme that the gay translators (their version of Indian windtalkers, I guess) were so vital in the War on Terror.

But since they dropped that whole War on Terror thing because terrorism was just something the Republicans used to scare voters they dropped the meme.

Just another example of how the Left uses certain groups as pawns to further their radical agenda.

Posted by: D-ling at May 10, 2009 08:15 PM (QeV0C)

Since the SCOTUS has unanimously voted on a case, based only on the exact, literal wording of a law, will they now be behaving this way for all subsequent cases (a reasonable thing to do), or will they pick and choose depending on the case (i.e., act capriciously)?

Cases involving the 2^nd Amendment come to mind. Then there’s the 1^st Amendment ("Fairness Doctrine", new FCC policies, etc.), and maybe even a couple of very large bankruptcy cases (contracts, contractual rights, etc.).

Add to these, the concept of "equal protection under the law".

Perhaps the days of activist judges just ended, and the days of judges making policy will never come to pass

Posted by: Arbalest at May 10, 2009 08:16 PM (Bg4Sb)

40 So, why can't I just use a bogus SSN number for a job? Seriously? My taxes would totally go down when I file yearly under my real number. It's win-win! I bet I can dummy up a card super easy.

Posted by: Ella at May 10, 2009 08:18 PM (jeP9I)

41 And, apparently it's not a crime.

Posted by: Ella at May 10, 2009 08:18 PM (jeP9I)

42 40 You're probably a conservative or a reasonable approximation, and sorry to say, your inconvenient morals will prevent you from such shenanigans.

Being the bearer of bad news hurts me as much as you hearing this.

Posted by: sis at May 10, 2009 08:22 PM (hm0CN)

43 Many of our laws have become a sham.

I decided years ago that I would not wear a seat belt. I think they are a good idea, but my car has 9 air bags. And whether I wear a seat belt or not should be my decision as an adult ... not the Nanny State!

Illegal aliens drive around in my state and face no retribution whatsoever for breaking this most fundamental law. And they want me to wear a seat belt. Fuckem.

Posted by: Mephitis at May 10, 2009 08:28 PM (A3KCD)

So, why can't I just use a bogus SSN number for a job? Seriously?

Becuase you are a legal citizen, silly. We can't have legal citizens breaking the law.

Posted by: Uncle Sam at May 10, 2009 08:33 PM (rMBij)

he was arrested and charged witht wo immigration offenses and aggravated identity theft.

Why was he not charged with submitting a fraudulent SSN? It looks to me like the prosecutors were bending over backwards to let this guy off.

Posted by: flenser at May 10, 2009 08:37 PM (rMBij)

46 Lisa on the Simpsons new episode just now:

Mom mentioned the Fountainhead by Ayn Rand

Lisa:

"Moooom...Isn't that the bible of right wing losers?"

Wow. Spectacularly unfunny. What that means is that I cannot imagine how it could have been put in a funny context.

It's a funny thing now, conservatives are mocked because of fiscal conservatism, which I thought was the cool conservatism. I mean, I thought the Bible was the bible of right wing losers.

The Simpsons lost me with the Lisa becomes a vegetarian episode. First, it wasn't funny. There wasn't even a B story and the jokes just fell flat. Simpsons satire worked because nothing was sacred. But when they have a sacred cow (literally), it became much less effective. It was quite clear they were pushing a message. Furthermore, in that episode, she's a moral scold and a hypocrite (unable to live up to her vegetarian ideals). Any other character on The Simpsons would have gone down in flames in a similar situation, but Lisa was still supposed to be sympathetic.

Posted by: AmishDude at May 10, 2009 08:37 PM (bZ9KY)

47 Apparently ignorance of the law is no excuse...only if you are a citizen! I guess you can't toss them in jail for DUI anylonger as they didn't know that that was illeagal when they sneeked in.

Posted by: rob in katy,tx at May 10, 2009 08:41 PM (PiTBB)

48 31 While frustrating, this makes sense. They aren't deliberately trying to steal someone's identity, they are just forging ID. Use another law to get them, don't use this one.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 10, 2009 07:49 PM (PQY7w)

Should be simple enough. I wonder why it isn't.

But this law should be rewritten to include the situation when you knowingly use a fraudulent number. Consider it "attempted identity theft".

I agree that this seems to be the correct decision.

Posted by: AmishDude at May 10, 2009 08:41 PM (bZ9KY)

49 "You don't make friends with salad" is a musical masterpiece of the second order, exceed only by "Rock Me, Dr. Zeus"

Posted by: BumperStickerist at May 10, 2009 08:42 PM (ruzrP)

50 Lisa:

"Moooom...Isn't that the bible of right wing losers?"

"Don't you get tired of being wrong all the time!"

Posted by: Homer Simpson at May 10, 2009 08:45 PM (93F13)

51 "Do I hear the sound of butting in? That means it's Lisa Simpson, Springfield's answer to the question that nobody asked!!!" - Ned Flanders when he finally lost his temper in front of the whole town

Posted by: kbdabear at May 10, 2009 08:47 PM (93F13)

52
Once every third episode became a Lecture from Lisa, I stopped watching.

Posted by: kbdabear at May 10, 2009 08:48 PM (93F13)

53 What if I steal Barry's ID? I mean a natural born citizen stealing an illegal's ID.

And The Simpsons have never and will never be funny. Period. It's nothing but left wing rot.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 10, 2009 08:49 PM (Fd8CB)

While frustrating, this makes sense. They aren't deliberately trying to steal someone's identity, they are just forging ID. Use another law to get them, don't use this one.

Fraud would work.

Posted by: tcbevo at May 10, 2009 08:55 PM (z4daD)

55 The Simpsons lost me with the Lisa becomes a vegetarian episode.

That's the one that did it for me. The very next one was the Buddhism one, where every religion (ESPECIALLY Christianity) was all wrong in every way, but Buddhism was only shown in a completely positive light. That was enough for me.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 10, 2009 09:07 PM (PQY7w)

56 So it isn't really theft unless you know it belongs to someone else?
So the vette in the parking lot, it has it's keys in it and looks like a stray. I can just take it right? I mean I don't KNOW it belongs to someone.

Posted by: Rocks at May 10, 2009 09:20 PM (3RHzM)

Post #11, Janet Napolitano, illegal immigration is a misdemeaner criminal offence. The second time it is a felony offence. It is not a civil offence. The real Janet N. is wrong or lying.

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59 Everything has started to feel so surreal in this country... the good guys are bad and the bad guys are good. We're so screwed.

Posted by: nraendowment at May 10, 2009 10:20 PM (wWJ1T)

Is it asking too much for the lawyers we elect to talk to the lawyers they hire, and the justice department we pay for, to only pass laws that comply with our constitution?

Yep! Apparently it is.

Posted by: Dan at May 10, 2009 10:40 PM (qfb86)

61 #58, I'll remember that if I marry a bald chick.

Posted by: Scaramouche at May 11, 2009 12:09 AM (WzWFC)

Ella at May 10, 2009 08:18 PM (jeP9I)

Well, it depends on the type of job you are doing. There are plenty (well, from my perspective) of jobs out there where you can get away with this. But if you are going to go the route of using a fake SSN, you might as well just work under the table for cash.

Of course, these jobs usually aren't as lucrative as those jobs that require a SSN, but so it goes.

On the plus side, just working under the table for cash is pretty easy, easier than messing arround with a fake SSN.

A down side of working under the table, or with a fake SSN is that you won't get any credit for your social security retirement.

Posted by: Ed at May 11, 2009 12:17 AM (VplQ7)

63 Holy shit Batman, Simpsons have always been politicized PC crap and so has SCOTUS. The solution is to put Simpsons on SCOTUS, and turn that courtroom into a cartoon. Put SCOTUS on Spongebob. In other areas of law, the reckless and wanton disregard for truth, or public safety is the same as knowing disregard for the law. Ed is wrong to think false SSN jobs are poorly paid. They are not, just poorly verified. I've heard that illegal workers can collect SS money on those fake ID's and have their checks sent to Mexico, and/or our Gov't sends SS equalization money to Mexico. They can also claim lucrative tax credits to reduce their tax burden to zero--or less than zero.

Posted by: manfromuncle at May 11, 2009 01:03 AM (AIIkd)

64 Re the military translator getting fired

Back in the mid eighties, on the USS America, a couple Petty Officers decided that they had done enough time in the Navy and wanted to go home without doing the last couple three years. They didn't want to get "fired" for the usual offenses like smoking dope or going AWOL. That behavior involved getting a "other than honorable discharge" which impacts your benefits accrued from your service.

So they hatched a plan. They secretly stashed gay fuck books in their lockers and separately went to the Chaplain and told him of their "problem" with their gayness.

Within hours the Masters at Arms raided their lockers, found the evidence, and they were immediately flown from the Med to the States for their General Discharge...which gets them all post service bennies.

Mission Accomplished.

I was dumb founded. The ingenuity of the American sailor is awesome.

Posted by: torabora at May 11, 2009 01:06 AM (fRQc8)

65 SCOTUS went completely off the rails with Kelo.

No sense looking at them for rationality.

Posted by: torabora at May 11, 2009 01:07 AM (fRQc8)

66 This is the same Supreme Court that thinks CO2 is a pollutant.

Posted by: mrkwong at May 11, 2009 10:12 AM (G8Eo0)

67 Ok, but can they be charged with possession and use of fraudulent documents? Maybe it isn't ID theft, but it is clearly fraud. What is the charge for illegal use of fraudulent Federal Documents?

Or do we now claim that they didn't know it was fraud as well?

Posted by: Gekkobear at May 11, 2009 12:34 PM (aDYc8)

manfromuncle at May 11, 2009 01:03 AM (AIIkd)

You mentioned well paying jobs that don’t require a SSN. If you have any information about these, please, share it with us. And by “us”, I mean “me”, because I would definitely be interested in that. As for my experiences, these are some of the jobs that can be done under the table: Maintenance. Assistant apartment manager. Cashier for a mom and pop shop. Unlicensed taxi driver. Day labor construction. Housekeeping. Babysitting. Unlicensed barber/hair stylist. Bouncer. All of these are honest, legitimate work. Well, except for the unlicensed part. I mean they don’t involve crime or vice.) Can you live off them? Yes. Will you get rich doing so? No.

As far as the tax dodges you talked about, I’m not familiar with them. Others might be, and they can expound on that. The only relevant tax dodge that I know is the multiple dependents one. You claim you have five or six dependents on your W-4. That way the government doesn’t withhold a lot of money from your paycheck. Yeah, you’re supposed to file a tax-return, but you don’t. Now I’m not really as knowledgeable on tax dodging law as I should be, so if you know more, feel free to spread the wealth I mean knowledge.

Posted by: Ed at May 11, 2009 01:51 PM (VplQ7)

69 Just use Richard Nixon's SSN. He doesn't need it anymore.

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