1 Pot's been decriminialized in MA for five months now. The world has yet to end.

2 They'd legalize murder (non-abortion variety) if they could find a way to tax it.

3 Decriminalization is retarded compared to full legalization.  What, so we make it easier and less penalized to send cash to murderous gangs?  If its legalized, we put the gangs out of business.  If its decriminalized, we just make it so that ordinary citizens are less afraid to send their cash to murderers and thugs.

4

When I was in college I thought most potheads where idiots (an opinion that really hasn't been changed by exposure to potheads outside of college).  In any case I suppose I wouldn't really get my panties in a bunch over pot getting legalized - but if libertarians complain about the current war on drugs, just wait until they see how draconian it gets when not only do the local cops get to sieze "drug property" but the state views illegally grown and sold pot as preventing them from revenue generating via taxes.

5 Funny how the state wants to exercise its' police power to protect our health, safety, and morals.

Except until it dawns on the government that a buck can be made (revenue generated, sorry).

Then, by all means, big government puts on the lavender fake-fur coat and the gold $-symbol neck-chain and gets in the gambling and drug business. You wait, in most of our lifetimes, big government will be a pimp--literally.

6 This seems more common sense to me every day.  As a nation, most of us are opposed to marijuana abuse.  But once upon a time a slim majority of puritanical Americas got their busy-body do-gooder panties in a twist over alcohol, and managed to pass a Constitutional Amendment that made organized criminals the most powerful men in the country overnight.

Our current war on drugs is a fantastical joke since the one step necessary to begin to wage the war effectively (vigilantly guarding our borders) will never happen under any regime thanks to political correctness.

So, if we concede that we are never going to fight drugs effectively, the least we can do is properly regulate and tax them like every other commodity.

7

.gov (state and federal) needs new tax revenue STAT.  The boondoggle in cheif must be fed.

Heaven forbid the size of gov. EVER shrink.

8 They might save money by reducing law enforcement costs, but I think they won't gain tax revenue by legalizing marijuana.

They will gain sales tax revenue, obviously.

But they'll lose the taxes paid by the fake businesses used by growers to launder their profits.

In the end, I think the huge drop in marijuana price caused by legalization will mean that the sales taxes generated are less than the money laundering taxes lost.

9 I agree with james.  Either make it illegal or legal.  Decriminalization is the worst of both worlds.

10 5. Dave

"You wait, in most of our lifetimes, big government will be a pimp--literally."

Funny you should put it like that.  This has technically already happened.  At one point a Nevada brothel filed for bankruptcy and for a time was managed by the federal courts.

11 Sandy's got this right.  Legalization won't add much revenue, the plant is simply too easy to grow.  OTOH, it will eliminate black market profits on the drug AND eliminate the need for thousands of hours of helicopter and airplane recon to find remote gardens.  The real savings to the state and fedgov lies in the reduced need for enforcement dollars to be spent.

12 And how exactly does decriminalization allow it to be taxed?  Are the street-corner dealers going to be required to report quartly profits?  Its ridiculous.

13

WEGALIZE LEED 1

14 This a no brainer. Full legalization, tax it, and carve out an exemption for
growing at home for personal use in a similar fashion as you can brew
100 gallons a year of beer or wine for personal use.

Maybe you can grow a 1lb or 2 of pot for personal use.

15 Yeah I don't get how you tax something that is still illegal, even if decriminalized.

Currently you're supposed to declare all your income to the IRS, even if it's criminally-gotten income. Otherwise the feds throw you in jail. (See Al Capone.)

So, really, everyone making money off pot is already suppsed to be paying taxes here, but obviously they're not, and I don't see how this small legal step suddenly encourages tax code compliance.

16

14 This a no brainer. Full legalization, tax it, and carve out an exemption for
growing at home for personal use in a similar fashion as you can brew
100 gallons a year of beer or wine for personal use.

Maybe you can grow a 1lb or 2 of pot for personal use.

I agree with this.

17 leoncaruthers -- Sure, and its not impossible to brew your own whiskey in a barrel, but how many people actually do that?  There might be a few people who still try to live off their own gardens, but the vast majority will take the path of least resistance -- legal channels.  I don't smoke pot, but if it was legal, I might.  And if it was legal and available in stores or whatever, I wouldn't go out of my way to find a guy who grows it in his back yard.

18 Now that I think about it, I just made the decriminalization argument.  There's no real revenue to be made in taxing it, but enforcement is expensive, so you leave it illegal and stop doing the pricy part (i.e. enforcing the law).  That way you can still nail political opponents with the "crime" if it's expedient to do so, or to tack it on to a longer list of charges, kinda like sodomy added to a rape case.

19 CATO publishing Gleen's work?

Well, there goes my respect for them.

20 leoncaruthers --- Keeping it illegal, but not enforcing the law?? Are you insane?  We'll have whole towns of Mexican drug cartels popping up in the middle of forests, with nobody around to stop them.  That is the worst argument I've ever heard.

21 Sure, and its not impossible to brew your own whiskey in a barrel, but how many people actually do that?

I'm pretty sure home-distilling is still (heh) illegal in the US.

22 If legalized won't these "front" businesses become THE business of selling pot?  I mean a lot of people will get into the business of selling pot, many will want to be honest brokers with the government in order to have a long life at it. They'll pay thier taxes, at least some of them.

23 Hear that ?........ pink floyd's $$$$$$$$$ song   the cash register part ?    it would add the needed ambience to the article

24 Maybe they think that if we are all stoned we will be too busy watching the Cartoon Network, to care what the government does.

25
This is solution #2 for politicians when they spend too much.

#1 solution: build casinos

26 Yeah, I guess it's not so far fetched to imagine that Greenwald is an advocate for smoking bones...Lots of them.

27 james, that's true, but whiskey and beer are not the best comparison.  Both require tools and skill and equipment.  A better analogy is tomatoes, which lots of folk grow in their gardens.  If the government's goal is to save money on enforcement, decriminalization is best, since it leaves them with tools in the arsenal.  If the goal is to somehow tax it in a manner similar to cigarettes, my guess is that we'll see mostly taxed, store-type sales, but a fair amount of gray market, roll-your-own folks.

28

Legalize the use of anything that makes you happy, tax it and refuse to force taxpayers to pay for any, and all, medical care for problems which result from  being an idiot. With socialized medicine on the way there will be very little medical care available anyway. One would be a fool to spend years in medical school to work at a GS rating for the liberal government.

More people in America (%) now fear the liberal democrat government than Germans did the Nazi's. I think government officials will meet the same end as Hitler and his criminals.

29 So seriously.  My wife was working in the Netherlands last year for about six months.  I went out to visit her and while there we partook.  It was the first time for me in almost 30 years, because I am not a user here in the states.  But my opinion is that not only should it not be illegal, it should be mandatory for married people.  You don't need me to spell out why...

30 2 They'd legalize murder (non-abortion variety) if they could find a way to tax it.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 06, 2009 03:19 PM (1Jaio)

Perhaps we should take the same approach with abortion:  Tax it.  We tax the living shit out of smokes to raise revenues and to discourage smoking.  Perhaps we should take the same approach with abortion.

But I suppose that the counter arguement is that it is a constitutional right, so you can't tax it.  Except that guns are taxed, so why not tax abortions?

This would help Obama and Clinton of reaching their goal of having abortion being "safe, legal and rare."

31 leoncaruthers --- Keeping it illegal, but not enforcing the law?? Are you insane?

No, this is how the government treated wine makers in the upper peninsula of Michigan during prohibition.  Going after them in the woods cost too much, so the wine makers were ignored unless someone running for election needed a scalp or two.

32

"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, pharmakeia [sorcery], enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." 

Now that's an Inheritance Tax.

33 The problem with legalizing pot is that the State still pays for rehab in some cases.



If you're going to legalize weed, fine, but No more free rehab for people.

34 Sure, and its not impossible to brew your own whiskey in a barrel, but how many people actually do that?  There might be a few people who still try to live off their own gardens, but the vast majority will take the path of least resistance -- legal channels.  I don't smoke pot, but if it was legal, I might.  And if it was legal and available in stores or whatever, I wouldn't go out of my way to find a guy who grows it in his back yard.

Posted by: james at May 06, 2009 03:33 PM (bBWkY)

And if your neighbor had a gallon baggie full you would say no?

Pot is the drug equivalent of eggplants in vegetable gardening.

If it wasn't illegal the stuff would be worthless.

35 If you're going to legalize weed, fine, but No more free rehab for people.

Seconded.  I'd go so far as to make drug use of any kind equivalent to a voluntary opt-out of any and all state assistance.

36

Hmm. Marijuana contains higher concentrations of carcinogens and tar than does tobacco.  So you are now promoting unhealthy lifestyles, Governator? 

To legalize marijuana here in CA isn't going to be a big leap.  The medical marijuana laws are a joke anyway.  There are plenty of hack doctors who will issue scrips.  My perfectly healthy nephew was able to get one for some trumped-up medical problem like PMS or something.

If he wants CA to legalize it, they better tax the crap out of it like they do cigarettes, and charge users through the nose for their health care like they want to do to anyone who smokes cigarettes or enjoys Twinkies.  (Of course, hopeless potheads like a few of my relatives already get gubmint healthcare for free, being unemployable losers and all.)

37

Frito-Lay and Nabisco must be drooling at the thought of this...

So if drugs every become legalized, will that mean the libertarian party can dump all the dope heads and become a serious party?

38

If it wasn't illegal the stuff would be worthless.

Huh, that's good point.  I never thought of it that way.

39 Of course, the revenue collected never simply shores up the budget. It is used to justify an ever-increasing budget, which then needs to be shored up when those revenues fall. 

Ditto with casinos and any other stupid idea that starts with "hey, why not make policy based on the amount of profit due to the State!" Then, the State comes along and accuses the now-legal industry of corruption and/or indifference to the harm its now-legal product is causing.  The solution is then lawsuits courtesy of the Attorney General.

Liberty does not exponentially expand power of the State.

40

I, um...uh, hmm...what was the question?

41
So the price is greatly decreased and the availability is greatly increased, yet the rates of lifetime use among young people decreases?

Riiiiiiiiiight.

Let's compare that to the data showing a steady decline in cigarette smokers as the price of cigarettes go up, not to mention the social stigma attached to cigarette smoking.

42

Legalize it.  It may generate some tax revenue but it will also take billions away from drug cartels in Mexico and south as well as from organized gangs here in the U.S.  Also, we shouldn't be spending any money on law enforcement to go after pot - we have bigger problems they should be focused on.  Plus, think of all the new jobs that will be generated in the bong industry.

43 I don't think Greenwald's article is about what is good for the government.  It is about what is good for the population.  Less people were doing drugs once it was decriminalized.  Less people were getting HIV from dirty needles.  Less people were ODing.  Less people were going to jail for a non-violent offense.  More people were getting treatment.

All these are good things.

44 The biggest argument against legalization is that heavy drug use is likely to create more democrats, and we seem to have a surplus.

45 Fluffy McNutter,

Not everyone who smoke is a useless layabout.

Some, like myself, are professionals who enjoy marijuana.

Alcohol has done more to destroy the lives of people than
marijuana will ever do if made legal, as it should be.

46 If legalized won't these "front" businesses become THE business of selling pot?

Yes, absolutely.  But their profits will be much lower, because legal pot will be much cheaper than illegal pot, so they'll be paying less taxes.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me like a tax loss.  When people think of tax revenue from legalized marijuana, they usually forget that many producers are currently paying taxes on the profits they're making from the high black market price of marijuana.

47

The increased revenue will come from marginal increases in sales tax of Doritos and on Frito Lays' corporate taxes. 

Legalize it. 

48 If that jackhole Ahhhhrnold keeps raising my taxes, I'll give him something to smoke...

49 Shovel-ready project?

50

The biggest argument against legalization is that heavy drug use is likely to create more democrats, and we seem to have a surplus.

No more calls, we have a winner!

51 Plus, think of all the new jobs that will be generated in the bong industry.

I hadn't thought of that.  Sure the drug will be literally as cheap as dirt, but the accoutrement to use it will be a boon to Bed, Bath, and Beyond (sold next to the tea strainers and coffee filters).

52 I knew a genetic engineer who was way smarter than any of you who smoked a fair amount of pot.

53
I don't care if people smoke butts, joints, or the baloney-pony and get AIDS; they can do whatever they want.

But don't piss on me and tell me it's raining. Don't tell me how legalizing pot will benefit me. The local, state, and Federal governments spend too much f'n money. Period.

The revenue generated from pot-tax will not ease my tax burden at all. What a stupid proposition.

54 I'd go so far as to make drug use of any kind equivalent to a voluntary opt-out of any and all state assistance.

Not me.  A lot of seriously mentally ill folks dabble in recreational drugs in order to self-medicate (make the voices stop, forget about the CIA plot against them, whatever).

I'm not sure of any free "rehab" program offered by the government.  But I do know that if you start denying psychiatric hospitalization to people just because they've done drugs, we'll see an explosion of homelessness and crime.

55
And what's going on here, some of you approving the creation of a new tax???

Another tax? Come on. We're talking about another tax. A new tax? Man, really. What are we talking about here? Tax. We're talking about a tax.

All day long these vultures think of new ways to dig into your pocket and you think it's okay?

NO MORE TAXES.

56 Comparing growing weed to tomatoes only works if you like smoking shitty pot. To grow really good stuff requires a bunch of materials and experience. Not as much as whiskey of course, but I think most who would want it if was legal would end up buying it.

57

Wasn't this guy George H. W. Bush's presidential head of physical fitness, or something like that?

Republicans: hmph. The hypocritical hypocrisy of these hypocrites, or something like that.

58 This has technically already happened.  At one point a Nevada brothel filed for bankruptcy and for a time was managed by the federal courts.

And lost money.

http://tinyurl.com/2wflxx

This bears repeating - the Federal Government literally could not sell an ORGASM and make a profit.

I'm of the faction dedicated to decriminalizing it, because I do not see how the Government could assert the authority to regulate it in the first place. If they want to decriminalize it and then regulate it (like alcohol or tobacco or porn), then tax it, Da Gummint could probably get 50 cents or more per joint bought, and still lower the street price for really good stuff. But for people growing it for home use, the government has no more right to criminalize that than they have to criminalize eggplant.

(Although okra? That stuff should get you 10-20...)

59

Not everyone who smoke is a useless layabout.

That's why I said "hopeless potheads"  and not 'everyone who smokes pot in any quantity'.  In my experience, very few people who are perpetually stoned are productive professionals.  They aren't productive at anything except pot consumption.  No different than "hopeless alcoholics."

60 I think the gov't in CA has been dipping into their stash of taxable goods. Hmmm, what else could CA do to increase revenue?

weed = ok
offshore drilling = bad

61 Legalize all of it. The "drug war" has been a colossal moral and financial sinkhole for decades. I'm not saying that you should just throw the doors open -- a cetain amount of regulation is obviously necessary -- but I see no reason that most recreational drugs couldn't be handled in the same way as alcohol or cigarettes are. (And Uncle Sugar could gleefully tax the shit out of the poor junkies who must have their fix regardless of what it costs. Although this would probably lead to some bootlegging.)

Drug-abuse is a public health issue, not a criminal issue. Most of the violence in drugs comes from the manufacture and sale of same, not its consumption. Legalize it, and most of the violence associated with it would disappear overnight.

And while we're at it let's decriminalize prostitution as well. Because I like hookers it's the right thing to do.

62

This a no brainer. Full legalization, tax it, and carve out an exemption for
growing at home for personal use in a similar fashion as you can brew
100 gallons a year of beer or wine for personal use.

Maybe you can grow a 1lb or 2 of pot for personal use.

Yea, I'm onboard with this one too.  Fighting this battle is futile, a waste of money and a huge money maker for criminals.

63 It's just pot, who gives a shit.

64 I'm in total agreement with Monty.

65
You know what would be radical?

Legalizing Transfats!!!

Holy shit, where are our priorities?

66

I knew a genetic engineer who was way smarter than any of you who smoked a fair amount of pot.

And I know a hundred guys in construction who are way dumber than even you and they smoked a fair amount of pot too.

67

Exactly, tom_06060...

Arnold likely sees this as his chance to bring revenue in and avoid being the governor who was on watch during california's biggest bust ever.

What was that slogan of his? He was going to bring a big broom and clean the place up?

Instead, we'll have a big doobie and clean up with the revenues.

68 Plus, think of the boost this will gave to the snack food industry.  Sales of potato chips, Twinkies and Ding Dongs would go through the roof.

69

Another tax? Come on. We're talking about another tax. A new tax? Man, really. What are we talking about here? Tax. We're talking about a tax.

But D, I think you're overlooking that this will help you because it will improve the economy through the creation of new government oversight jobs!  And I think we all know that everyone benefits when there are more government workers!

/sarc (was it even necessary to add this?)

70 #66.  Dumber than even me.  Difficult to imagine...

71 People will just start growing their own pot, next to their tomatoes.
No middle-man or distributor needed.

I wonder how that will work in the tax scheme.

72 Not to put my okey dokey on using the stuff, but ask yourselves, you who love our founding and freedoms of the time; what would our founding fathers have thought of soveriegn americans being told what they could and could not do in their own living rooms or grow in their own back yards. Just don't complain if you do it and can't get a decent job, support yourself and family, aren't allowed to sue an employer if he/she won't hire you if you use. etc

73

Whomever said ,upthread, that the government would run prostitution in our lifetime: They already did. The feds confiscated the notorious Bunny Ranch in Nevada for taxes owed and actually opperated it for a while.

Surprisingly, they couldn't even do that right and lost money.

74 >>>All these are good things.

Assuming they're true, and assuming Portugal isn't an outlier. He may very well be focusing on the one country that's had a positive experience with decriminalization.

Again, what about the Netherlands? Don't tell me it's not technically decriminalized; everyone knows the cops won't arrest you for even smoking pot on the street. So it is de facto decriminalized. What has their experience been?

Apparently not as good as Portugal's, or else Greenwald would be telling us about *both* counties' experiences.

75 So the pot heads, who now buy their weed TAX FREE, will WILLINGLY pay a tax in order to smoke it legally?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  Sounds like the politicians are the pot heads!

76 This is one of those issues that I consider "not my fight".  I don't see a real reason not to legalize and tax pot.

Conservatism to me is about fiscal issues and decreasing laws and government.  Indeed if you follow conservatism <i>by my standard</i> to it's logical end, I'd say the tax shouldn't be alot, and you should also decrease taxes on tobacco.

This falls in with another issue conservatives get mixed up in, gay marriage.  While I can understand upholding the ideology that it shouldn't be called "marriage", strictly, (what's wrong with having civil unions if that word bothers so much?), I don't think the world will end by allowing it.  Indeed, it would kill a major illegal trafficking industry that we've been fighting Especially hard since the 60's.  It's one point I would disagree with say, Reagan on.

As a republican, Arnold is a lib, another I'd throw out of the party along with the Specters, Collinses and McCains.

On a final note, though, I have have a hard time hating the guy personally; with no fanfare that I heard of he came out eat lunch with us in Camp Doha on the Kuwait / Iraq border back in 2003, and though the guy was in bad health..  He promptly had to get back in his bus afterward because the heat was obviously killing him.  I respect that even if his politics are rino-ish.

77 Well in the meantime if you do get into trouble in CA due to pot, check out LA's dopest attorney.

78 This falls in with another issue conservatives get mixed up in, gay marriage.

Take the government out of the marriage business, and the problem goes away.

79

I think the gov't in CA has been dipping into their stash of taxable goods. Hmmm, what else could CA do to increase revenue?

weed = ok
offshore drilling = bad

Silver lining in all of this?  With O in charge, the entire country will become just as fucked up as CA.  I won't have to be embarassed to say I'm from CA because we'll all be living under federal criminal stupidity!  Sorry for the rest of you, but misery loves company.

80 Decriminalizing most drugs makes sense to me but if you suddenly deprive the criminal gangs of their #1 source of revenue, they will move to replace it tout de suite: kidnapping, extortion and protection rackets would be their most likely choices

They're not gentle souls  were trapped by misguided policy; they're mean SOBs who take the path of least resistance. That path just happened to be drugs in the past, but will become something else in the future if the drugs are decriminalized.

So if you are going to decriminalize, you first need to clear out some prison space and prepare to combat the above crimes with everything you've got. That will mean tougher laws, tougher judges, tougher punishments. If not, then all hell will break loose.

81 Bleh mis grouped the marriage issue in the same paragraph with legalizing pot.  Well you get my gist. 

82 So if you are going to decriminalize, you first need to clear out some prison space and prepare to combat the above crimes with everything you've got.

Legalizing pot would empty out, if I'm not mistaken, half the prison population right off the bat. <Source needed, of course>

83 Ah, so these are the fabled Green Jobs touted by the O.

84

I think the gov't in CA has been dipping into their stash of taxable goods. Hmmm, what else could CA do to increase revenue?

weed = ok
offshore drilling = bad

Silver lining in all of this?  With O in charge, the entire country will become just as fucked up as CA.  I won't have to be embarassed to say I'm from CA because we'll all be living under federal criminal stupidity!  Sorry for the rest of you, but misery loves company.

Sorry - forgot to italicize what I was quoting.

85 Not a pot smoker, but totally okay with legalizing it.

86

1).The # of people going to rehab doubled? Well, speaking from experience that's at least 1k/day. Need a lot of weed tax for that. Although tax on my booze tab would have easily covered my stay.

2) I'm supposed to wear a motorcycle helmet, but I can fry my brain from the inside? BTW Why do I have to wear a helmet, if teh ghey don't HAVE to wear condoms?..Statistics and all..... 

87

Legalizing pot would empty out, if I'm not mistaken, half the prison population right off the bat. <Source needed, of course>

I seriously doubt that Schlippy.  Half the people in prison are there for smoking pot?  I don't think so.

88 i usually argue in favor of legalization.  i hate most recreational drugs, save alcohol and tobacco, which have a much higher degree of nostalgia associated with them than other drugs, especially in the us landscape.  problem is that i hate being on the same side as most of the idiots who favor legalization so i'm becoming more and more in favor of draconian crack downs on these fools.  sure, the government wouldn't have to fight a drug war any longer, but at the same time what good would it do to put more money in the hands of the thugs in congress?  glen greenwald is a liar, and i feel confident in taking the other side if it is only out of spite.

89

Sorry Doug, it was the way you wrote your comment. Anyhoo, I trust your anecdote is true but I do know guys who have no short term memmory who are heavy pot heads.

Still, I am not sure I don't want legalization. I have reached a point where I believe almost all laws need a second look. We simply have too many intrusions upon our liberties. Perhaps legalizing pot will give the citizenry a taste for rolling back some of them.

90 Naqamel: "If you're going to legalize weed, fine, but No more free rehab for people."

I think that's right. But to push the envelope, you'd have to allow employers, at their own discretion and not by government diktat, to fire employees who use -- and use what would now be a legal product.

In essence, if you become libertarian on this matter, then you have to become libertarian on other matters as well, unintended consequences and all. In essence you're allowed to make all the decisions you want - even the stupid ones - and not get bailed out others by the force of the heavy hand of a proxy (the Man).

I don't mind the libertarian approach and probably endorse it with, at a minimum, the following caveat: Users have to understand that peers, of their own accord, can rightfully punish them without the weight of law coming down on them for exercising discrimination... the discriminating selection of productive and cogent employees.

91 I dispute the notion that criminals in the drug-trade will simply take up some other criminal enterprise if drugs are legalized. Consider the meth-cookers and pot-growers: they do it mainly because it's fairly easy and low-risk compared to the profit to be gained. Most of these folks would continue in the trade, I think: the money would still be good, and they still have the expertise. They'd just have to pay taxes and fees.

92

1).The # of people going to rehab doubled? Well, speaking from experience that's at least 1k/day. Need a lot of weed tax for that. Although tax on my booze tab would have easily covered my stay.

2) I'm supposed to wear a motorcycle helmet, but I can fry my brain from the inside? BTW Why do I have to wear a helmet, if teh ghey don't HAVE to wear condoms?..Statistics and all.....

Not to play devils advocate too much here, because in nearly every other issue I'll join up with you in agreeing on issues, but we're talking about weed here, man. Weed, not crack, not cocaine, not heroine, not even alcohol. People need to go to rehab for weed? I haven't smoked the stuff for 20 years, but I don't recall it being something you go sell your mother to keep up your addiction over, or get in fist fights over. Ever seen Reefer Madness? (Snark: or gunfights over.. oh wait, the dealers do.. with our border patrol agents.)

93 So the pot heads, who now buy their weed TAX FREE, will WILLINGLY pay a tax in order to smoke it legally?

Yes, if the supply rises, the prices can fall to the point where the taxed product is actually cheaper.  It's called Economics. It might just save your ass one day.

94

Schlippy is right, if it's just weed......What can be assed to weed? Angel dust?

I do like the idea of sitting at a blackjack table, smoking a huge spliv, while getting a hooker to go down on me.  

95 @90 I don't mind the libertarian approach and probably endorse it with, at a minimum, the following caveat: Users have to understand that peers, of their own accord, can rightfully punish them without the weight of law coming down on them for exercising discrimination... the discriminating selection of productive and cogent employees.

Employees that work in places that ban smoking aren't able to sue their employers for discriminating against smokers. I don't see that legalizing marijuana would make any change to employers still being able to test for it. I agree with legalizing it, but I won't use it myself for that very reason, and I agree that in certain jobs folks that smoke weed (or tobacco, for places sensitive to that be it food or electronics manufacture) don't belong.

96 Might keep the hippies home on election day though.

97 96 Might keep the hippies home on election day though.

There you have it... the final reason to legalize

98 Another thing about this study. They advocate pot use, but then mention neeedles?...I agree, pot users never show up at rehab, but needles? Eventually rehab or the morgue.

99 OT: did anyone just watch that piece of shit ACORN spokesman on Beck?

What a sleezebag.  Beck handled him pretty well, but not as well as Megyn Kelly.

100 Let's decriminalize tax evasion. I'll cut 'em in on a piece of the savings, I promise.

101 Legalization or decriminalization at the federal level is a non-starter for me. I'm not personally in favor of legalizing pot or any other drug that is currently illegal; however, being a 10th Amendment kinda gal, I am in favor of letting the states decide the issue for themselves w/o federal involvement. If CA wants to do it, fine. Just don't force it on me down here in FL.

"People need to go to rehab for weed? I haven't smoked the stuff for 20 years, but I don't recall it being something you go sell your mother to keep up your addiction over, or get in fist fights over."

I personally know three separate people back home who ended up in rehab over weed. They also had criminal records, not from using itself, but from theft and assaults they carried out in order to get money for more weed. I'm still in favor of the states deciding, but I'm just saying it can happen.

102
71. Boeing said:
People will just start growing their own pot, next to their tomatoes.
No middle-man or distributor needed.

I wonder how that will work in the tax scheme.

99% of the potheads I've met did not have the skills, time, or yardspace for that matter to grow their own.  And not one of them liked dealing with dealers either.  If they could walk into 7-11 and pick their favorite strain (along with some Fritos, bean dip, a microwave burrito, um, some breath mints, a lighter, Red Bull, oooh -- Mini-trucker magazine, um, what the f*ck was I here to buy?...), they would be in heaven.

Don't decriminalize, legalize.  Put the bottom-feeding dealers out of business and make this a respectable industry.

103 98 Another thing about this study. They advocate pot use, but then mention neeedles?...I agree, pot users never show up at rehab, but needles? Eventually rehab or the morgue.

This is one reason the stuff isn't likely to get legalized. It's rolled in with all the "hard" drugs that should remain illegal. It's argued as a "stepping stone" or "doorway drug". Me, I experimented, mainly because it was the rebellious teenager thing to do. Comes down to individual responsibility methinks.

104 I refuse to believe that cheap and legal drugs for all is in any way a good idea but as per the original intent of the Constitutional right for sovereign states to experiment within their socioeconomic borders, why not let California try that shit and watch them collectively trip on their brown SOMA. Let's make it more of a magnet state for dipshits of all sorts.

Just imagine if crap like crack and meth were legal, cheap, and easily available. I don't even thing Switzerland and Holland are that retarded on lefty koolaid.

As we speak legalized alcoholics (valu-rite morons being the exception of course) are robbing and killing people over bottles of Nite-Train and Ripple  for fucksake. Soon they'll be doing it over Cigarettes, but you see, I'm sure organized criminal syndicates have abandoned those legalized products. Because ummm...Well because.

Does anyone imagine that this would not be the case regarding legal smack or coke or meth? Think hippies and hobos are annoying douches now?

I don't know about y'all but I don't much like the idea of making it any easier or socially acceptable for politicians, nuclear cooling tower Homers, and bus drivers to be rolling their asses off on the job. Talk about unintended consequences...

On the other hand we'd potentially be eliminating millions of democrat voters via a massive uptick in recipients of Darwin awards as well as lending a huge boost to future dentists.

It seems we're getting more like Britain by the day.

105 Its counterintuitive to me that decriminalizing maryjane led to decrease use.  Were people smoking only because it was cool to break the law and now its no longer cool.  And those people who didn't smoke it only because it was illegal now don't smoke it because why?

106 @101 I personally know three separate people back home who ended up in rehab over weed. They also had criminal records, not from using itself, but from theft and assaults they carried out in order to get money for more weed. I'm still in favor of the states deciding, but I'm just saying it can happen.

I agree on states deciding. I do question those you say went to rehab for weed. I hung around with the "wrong crowd" throughout my young adult life, and while many that smoked went to jail, I don't recall any instances that it was only because of weed use (you say so yourself). It was always in combination with something else, be it DUI, theft (but not just for weed, also because they couldn't hold a decent job) or harder things like meth.

107

All things in moderation.

108

Why not just legitimize all drugs and let the government tax them.  Its worked wonders in Europe.  Instead of armed gangs you have beign government workers serving you in just the same way legalized betting put the mob out of business.  Oh my, it didn't did it.  But you'd get rid of all those nasty gangs like in high school, but little Tommy would just look for something else to peddle.

 

And hasn't taxing cigarettes just made black market cigarettes a joke?

Drugs for all would make us a saner, more stable society.  Have you ever been to Amherst or San Francisco.  Such wonderful places full of responsible citizens.  In fact why not just have the government provide drugs for free?

 

 

109 Isn't this the state that has just about outlawed smoking tobacco? 

110
> Unanswered (at least in the Time piece) is whether The Netherlands had a similar experience, or if Portugal is an outlier.

I suspect that results from other countries may not tranlate well due to cultural differences from country to country.

111 @108 See 107

112 so apparently the demand curve for weed is inelastic, meaning that price/availability wouldn't affect the overall use.  i remember hearing this somewhere, but i seriously doubt it.  defacto ok'ing of drugs only leads to more drug users in my mind, and much like the smoking quandary there is an odd sort of conflict of interest when the state relies on the revenues generated from the sale of drugs.  anyway, so if the price is dramatically lowered and "theoretically" the demand remains unchanged there will be almost no tax revenue to be had, not that i'm for additional taxes, but i much prefer pigouvian use taxes like sales taxes to taxes on income.

113 The day I don't have to support some pot smoker on welfare who has nary the desire or motivation to work productively for a living is the day I will support legalization.

114 Schlippy, one of the three was an ex-boyfriend from way back. I think he casually used while we were dating but some time afterward got in with a crowd of stoners and that's what he did all day long. He only ever used weed but had to have it so he ended up in prison for assault. He was so stoned all the time that he couldn't hold down a job and so he beat up some random Joe outside a convenience store and stole his wallet. Used the money for weed. As part of his probation after serving time he had to go to a rehab.

The other two people were acquaintances but I know they were potheads and ended up in rehab because they couldn't function (ie, hold down jobs/relationships, etc). One was a family intervention and I think the second person checked themself in out of fear of losing her kids.

115
104.  monkeyfan said:
Just imagine if crap like crack and meth were legal, cheap, and easily available. I don't even thing Switzerland and Holland are that retarded on lefty koolaid.

Who is saying we're that retarded?  I don't recall any push to legalize crack, or other drugs that devastate the body and are, in and of themselves a detrimental public health menace.  Your attempts at linking marijuana to other hard drugs shows a lack of perspective on the matter,  The only thing weed has in common with crack is that, right now, both are illegal and are sold by the same bottom feeders.

As to rehab for marijuana, guess what, virtually anything can be addictive to someone with an addictive "personality" (it has nothing to do with personality, but rather the way their brains process stimulus, which has been proven over and over).  Some people need rehab for shopping addictions, sex addictions, internet addictions, not to mention gambling and alcohol.  All of these are legal (or in gambling's case quasi-legal) activities, that nonetheless can still result in a stint in rehab.  Rehab alone is not an argument against legalization.

116

@90 I think that's right. But to push the envelope, you'd have to allow employers, at their own discretion and not by government diktat, to fire employees who use -- and use what would now be a legal product.

Employers are already allowed to do this.  Case in point is the Scotts Company, which does not allow employees to smoke.  Smokers already employed with Scotts were grandfathered in, but required to take smoking cessation programs.  New hires may not be smokers.  They could certainly do the same with pot.  People aren't allowed to drink at work, pretty much anywhere.  Legalizing doesn't mean you're allowed to smoke it anytime, anywhere.

 

117 I still think states should decide. But like I said, it can happen. The biggest argument I hear in favor of it (usually from potheads) is that it's a victimless crime and no one gets hurt, etc, etc, etc. Well, that's not true. We just don't hear about it like we do drunk driving or whatnot. Maybe it's because it doesn't happen as frequently. I dunno. I just know it does happen.

118 Schlipp@95,

WRT smokers, that's a good point and I hope it translates to the use of other mind-altering substances.

My bigger concern is how this slope continues. Alcohol remains and pot gets legalized. Relatively harmless fun until one becomes addicted and then all bets are off. I'm fine with it if you create your own hell and don't share it with society. Liberty has costs you are not entitled to impose on fellow men.

But what if this all morphs into heavier stuff which it invariably will? I don't mean this as a direct pathway of personal abuses but more as a gateway by interested parties to other legalized activity. Cocaine? Methamphetamines? Heroin? Nasty, life destroying compounds. Yet government could step in because it sees tax monies to be harvested. Will drug dealers stick to legal pot when the high risk, high reward competitive illegal products still exist? Eh. Some might but most won't. Sure, Potheads, Inc. may operate under "Primo Marijuana Marketing and Sales," but they'll invest in subsidiary offshoots that will be infinitely more profitable. That illegal niche will be filled, directly or indirectly.

What is the social obligation when an addict needs his fix? Is the taxpayer liable for maintaining the health of this individual? The addict cannot function in the workplace because no employer can hire such a risk, so this person becomes a non-revenue generating sponge drawing either from accumulated wealth, family, or... the taxpayer. Who pays for this individual's food, clothing, and shelter? Who pays for his drug supply even if it is at a legally controlled price?

So yes, I like the idea that employers have been able to discriminate and may use the precedent to extend that particular discrimination to marijuana use. I'm not sure the level of discrimination here, however, since you may still smoke at home but not on the job. Employers can enforce workplace prohibitions, but not necessarily wholesale ones. When you start allowing for the use of mind-altering substances that have a longer residual effect, and subsequently force employers to keep them on just because they weren't doing it during working hours, then you have a problem.

119

OT: did anyone just watch that piece of shit ACORN spokesman on Beck?

What a sleezebag.  Beck handled him pretty well, but not as well as Megyn Kelly.

I muted the whole thing.  My bullshit tolerance limits are usually reached by time O's first presser of the day is over.

I did catch Glen saying he threw him out of the studio because he accused Glem of either being afraid of or disliking blacks when the mics were off after the interview. 

120 I think this is the kind of moderate, middle-of-the-highway, thinking that the New Republicanism needs. Projecting this kind of strong confusion based upon our malleable principles is exactly what it will take to get the majority of American's to follow us!

121 Rod Rescueman @115

You may not have noticed but some people in this thread (and in America) have advocated for the legalization of all drugs.

122 monkeyfan,

Ah, well, that's cavalier internet ranting as far as I'm concerned.  These are not the people who will be making policy decisions (lets hope).

123 Hope n' Change...

;^)

124 I don't really have a dog in this hunt or horse in this race (while I am starting to believe too many people are regularly arrested for pot), but what always fascinates me is the constant comparison of the US to single European countries -- the health care issue comes to mind instantly.

Another biggie to me is auto legislation -- everyone of the restrictions, and the soon to be Obama line at GM are based on living in a city or suburb.  These idiots have no clue what it is like to have to bring groceries for a family of four home for the week in a rural setting -- in the winter when you can get snowed in for days!  Not to mention getting the family anywhere.

Anyway, back on point:

Portugal has a population of  10,676,910 (July 2008 est.) and a land mass of 92,391 (vs 9,629,0910 US).  That's about the size of Indiana with the population of Michigan.

What Portugal has accomplished may work in a state, just as single payer health care may work in a state.  But scaling a program to a national level is always problematic, to say the least.

Of course if we were to return to the actual constitutional reach of the Feds each state could experiment and come up with a working solution, but that won't happen anytime soon.

Maybe I'll move to Oklahoma or Montana.
David

125 Legalize and tax it....For the CHILDREN(tm)

126

California basically decriminalized pot years ago. The "fine" for possession of less than ounce is $100. Usually the cops don't bother, at least in urban areas.

CA has medical pot laws. It licenses medical cannibis dealers and retial outlets. You can buy it easily with a "note from your doctor", and just about any doctor in the cities will do it.

Pot is by far California's biggest cash crop, and that's saying something in a state with a $10 billion ag industry. The north coastal region, especially the redwood area, as full of pot farms. The only people who care are the feds who periodically stage raids that piss off all the locals, including the sherrif and the cops. Waste of time.

A lot of these pot farms have been taken over my the Mexican cartels. The father of a friend of mine in Berkeley is an old hippie who grows pot up north for the medical pot dealers. He says the cartels are strong-arming the locals, and in some cases using violence to take over.

If it becomes a legal product, collect the taxes. I'd love to see how the feds would handle that.

127

The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled

 

Why? They always leave out the why. I never believe anything without the why.

128 120 I think this is the kind of moderate, middle-of-the-highway, thinking that the New Republicanism needs. Projecting this kind of strong confusion based upon our malleable principles is exactly what it will take to get the majority of American's to follow us!

What part of conservative principles says weed needs to be illegal agian? How bout we start paying attention to why the government controls and regulates even the tiniest aspects of our lives and Repuplicans are now becoming as bad as Democrats about holding onto regulation of stupid shit that the government should have nothing to do with.

Government should provide:
- Law enforcement and National Defense
- the Judiciary to deal with people that infringe on the basic rights of others
- infrastructure administration for taking care of laws such as not defecating on the sidewalks, keeping illegals off my lawn, and ensuring the traffic lights work
- The government should tax no more than is necessary to provide these simple functions of government.

So where in your "republican" view does regulating some guy smoking a plant come in again? Or whether or not two buggers can be considered officially married? Seems to me you are the type of "republican" does not match the type of Conservatism the party used to and ought to stand for.

129 So you know....Go ahead and smoke that Opium poppy sap and coca extract.

130 @monkeyfan

You keep saying stuff like that, but I don't recall seeing anything about legalizing anything in this thread or another about legalizing anything but weed.  Perhaps a link?

131
 "So where in your "republican" view does regulating some guy smoking a plant come in again?"
- Schlippy (crunchycon)

132 Most people are glad they have parents/children who've never touched it.

133 132 Most people are glad they have parents/children who've never touched it.

Yes, because y'know it such an evil thing. Why just last month 2670 people died from idiots smoking marijuana.

So Cin, do you drink?  How bout your folks?  You know where this is going.  Point is, why are "most people" so worried about it?  I for one would mind less if my kid were smoking up on occasion to drinking and driving.  Just food for thought.

134 Stop oppressing MEEEEEEE!11eleventy1!

135

So Cin, do you drink?  How bout your folks?  You know where this is going.  Point is, why are "most people" so worried about it?  I for one would mind less if my kid were smoking up on occasion to drinking and driving.  Just food for thought.

Take alcohol impaired drivers and add drug impaired drivers and what do you have? More impaired drivers.

136 "45 Fluffy McNutter,
Not everyone who smoke is a useless layabout.
Some, like myself, are professionals who enjoy marijuana.
Alcohol has done more to destroy the lives of people than
marijuana will ever do if made legal, as it should be.
Posted by: McLovin at May 06, 2009 03:48 PM"

I second that post, now pass that shit over here! After all, my name is not Skip.

Alcohol is orders of magnitude worse than marijuana yet it's legal despite all the problems it causes with wrecked livers, drunk driving, and increased violence. Sure, marijuana has a set of side effects but it's a very small list and it is not a perfect drug, but it's as close to perfect as we're going to find. Marijuana is a naturally occurring weed that requires zero processing of its produce. Alcohol must be brewed or distilled. Cocaine, heroin, and meth must be processed with other chemicals. Only tobacco and marijuana can be pulled off the plant and smoked. Unlike tobacco, the remainder of the hemp plant can be used to produce clothing, rope, and all manner of quality products. Hemp seed oil also makes a very good biofuel.

So, it's a plant that is easy to grow, requires no additives or preservatives and the waste from production can be used to produce a wide variety of products. Frankly, I don't see what the problem is with an innocuous weed that obviously a lot of people enjoy using without suffering any of the well-publicized side effects such as dementia, hallucinations, laziness, memory loss, or the urge to randomly kill people. The stereotypical pothead is just that, a stereotype.

I wish the government would stop telling us what to do, or not to do in this case. If someone wants to smoke weed then they will smoke weed, regardless of what the feds say about it. Knowing that, it's silly to not legalize then regulate it. It can't be stopped, just as prohibition could not stop alcohol consumption. The only real answer is to remove the black market and make it a legal and regulated market.

137 From the practical perspective, sure, legalize it and control it just like alcohol. Sure there are still bootleggers, but not near as many. And sure, there will continue to be unregistered weed farmers. But if you can go to the "Class VI" and pick up a pack of ready rolled's, again rated such as alcoholic substances by proof, taste, ad infinitum, why not. The production costs are nowhere near the end profit, so when with the tax it's still cheaper to buy legally, people will purchase the legal product. Call it $1 to produce the pack of 20, advertising, etc, $2 by the time it reaches the store. All of the various distribution costs and profit levels, $5. $5 tax stamp, $10 for an ounce of weed. +-. Huge tax revenues for the government on a currently untaxed product.

138

By all means legalize it and then legalize all the other drugs.  No one can predict the effects on pot on every individual but only the insane believes it does not slow reflexes, dull the brain or in other obvious ways have drawbacks.  So why not have your commercial pilot on it, but why not permit him to use any other drug as well?

For they too are acceptable aren't they?

 

I believe five years of free and open drug use would clean out the gene pools in the country so by all means lets legalize all drugs.

 

Who needs the slackers and druggies?   Better they enjoy themselves to the fullest and society give them the maximum opportunity to fulfill themselves.

 

139 Most of the violence in drugs comes from the manufacture and sale of same, not its consumption.

I agree in general, but in the specific cases of meth and cocaine, I disagree.  Being awake on speed for days on end can produce dangerous psychosis.

140 134 Stop oppressing MEEEEEEE!11eleventy1!

Always good to get real debate on the thread as opposed to name calling with no argument. So I'm a "crunchy" conservative. What's that make you? A sloppycon? Hey Arlen, be sure not to jizz to hard, Monkey might get it on his dress.

141 135, 138, By all means legalize it and then legalize all the other drugs.

Despite everyone in this thread and elsewhere arguing to legalize marijuana and marijuana alone, stupid fucks like you, monkeyfan and others will continue to roll it all into one issue and give cute name to conservatives that that talk smack about small issues that have nothing at all to do with social and fiscal conservatism. I blame YOU for why we lose hundreds of agents fighting people importing a fucking weed that grows wild in the ditches of Kansas and calling people evil for selling it. It's stupid fucks like YOU that make this an issue and elect pieces of dog shit like John McCain when he clearly has nothing in common with CONSERVATISM. Meanwhile, CONSERVATIVES would like the government to pay attention to the border and it's primary roles. Meanwhile, nosy FUCKS like you would like the government to continue to poke it's fucking schnoz in people's private business. I'm betting you are also president of your local HOA where you like to declare yourself an upstanding right-leaning citizen that stands up for the rights of the citizens while you tell some poor sap he can't have fucking yard gnomes on his property because it isn't in the spirit of the community. We have a term for fucks like you. You're called Democrats. Now FUCK OFF AND LEAVE MY PARTY, SLOPPY-CON.

142 Whoa dude! Like that's totally MIND-BLOWING!!!!!11!!!1!

^{<sound of bubbles and clinking ice cubes in a colorful blown glass tube of brownish water that hasn't been changed since the last Taco Bell run>}

Have you considered for a moment commercial break that when a certain type of "people's private business" has a negative effect on a given society then said society might just have an incentive to come to a consensus that they have something to do about it?

It appears that while you have been arguing against there being negative effects to most individuals doing illegal drugs - apparently some fine Northern Lights laced with powdered dolt in your case - it's nonetheless pretty obvious that you have been serving as a poster child of negative effects. You know: Short attention span, tenuous grasp of logical process, confusion, paranoid ideation...stuff like that.

Chill dude.

As you fancy yourself a revolutionary SOCIAL CONSERVATIVE of some  sort, why not just ignore and/or bypass all those buzzkillers who are responsible for killing "hundreds of agents fighting people importing a fucking weed that grows wild in the ditches of Kansas and calling people evil for selling it"   - agents fighting of their own free will I might add - and smoke away to your hearts content. Find a comfy ditch with some weed in Kansas and go to it.

I hear there's BBQ.

143 Our governor continues his slide toward becoming the second incarnation of Governor MoonBeam (aka Jerry Brown).  I wonder what he will call for legalizing next in his attempts to correct the budget crisis that he had a hand in creating.

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