1 All right, this is the last time I'm putting this comment in, but it is on topic.

 After a brief perusal of the memos, what is clear is that they were not used to justify torture, but rather, to find ways of interrogating recalcitrant detainees without resorting to torture. There was clearly a great deal of effort put into making sure that there was no torture.
The problem is of course, torture is pretty much in the eye of the beholder. When the definition is composed of subjective terms, you are going to get some subjective answers as to what does and does not constitute torture.

As to prosecutions, it's highly unlikely there will be any. And Barry knows that. Because it would have to take place in open court. And I just don't think San Fran Nan wants to sit in the docket and give her reasons for not objecting when the program was explained in great detail to her.

On the other hand, investigations? Oh, there will be. And in this case, the investigation IS the punishment. They'll use them both as a political bludgeon, and to make the individuals involved miserable. Pour encourages les autres.

2 From what I understand about these techniques, the goal is not confession, but information.  The interrogators already have an idea of what the perps know.

3 There is never such a thing as a trade-off when the left is talking. Every single thing they push for is win-win-win.

Please remember that, remember it well.  Consider that when confronting issues of "impolitic" speech and the David Frum variety of getting along with your opposition.  The Left never apologizes for their pointed speech and approach... because directness works.  Neither should the Right.

4 If that's not a right wing extremist I don't what is. he' s a General too. See they do target veterans.

Why were the FBI and the CIA not included on that report we sent out to law enforcement?

5 There's little chance to no that President Obama is going to say, "You know what? you're right; committing war crimes isn't such a bad idea after all."

Good grief. How about this guys. Let's let our criminal justice system sort it out. It's served us pretty well for 230 years. In spite of the fact that right wing kooks think our judiciary should be abolished.

6 So some children say that they never work at all, while some say that they work all the time, but it seems that only adults want to talk about whether they are in fact legal and if so under what circumstances ? War ?/ like war on poverty or war on drugs ? If some Americans want the POTUS to fail should they be tortured to see if there are any illegal plots going on ?

7 Apparently, despite my giving them three opportunities, neither dis-honest cloud nor John Ryan want to read my comment. Again, the administration did not advocate war crimes. They advocated finding every measure within the law to produce intelligence that would protect our country.

8 How much damage is this the hussein obama administration going to do to this country before it's all said and done?  Will there even be a United States as we know it to try and rebuild in 2010?

9 Or 2012, for that matter.

10 #7
You are merely talking to piles of bricks, not even a proper wall joined with mortar.  It is precisely like Ace says.  Leftards cannot talk about adult topics.  They are, however, very adept with name-calling and misdirection.  They live in a world filled with straw men.

11

Good grief. How about this guys. Let's let our criminal justice system sort it out. It's served us pretty well for 230 years. In spite of the fact that right wing kooks think our judiciary should be abolished.

I'm sure you agreed with our judiciary on their finding of Korematsu vs United States, right?   I think that happened in the last 230 years.

12
typed in "Eric Holder Scandals" got 183,000 results.

Yep, lets turn over the CIA to a political hack to investigate. What could go wrong? Plus, we could hold a pep rally of Obama supporters at the Justice Department, like he did at CIA.

Need to add Kafka's The Trial to the AoSHQ Book Club list

13 I agree with Honest Cloud.

14 Me, too.

15 Obumbles has just added former CIA director to list of potential terrorists.

16 yes, our judiciary has been involved in the wartime decision making process for 230 years.  I distinctly recall In Re the Release of National Socialist Party Prisoners from 1943.  that's when the Supreme Court mandated habeas corpus rights for those captured German soldiers from various battles from the era.  Read some of the Scalia dissents for an actual history lesson. 

17 I honesty think that most Americans hear about tormenting brutal murderous terrorists and shrug. I don't think this sticks with anyone but the hard left. Sadly, they're the ones in power.

18

Good grief. How about this guys. Let's let our criminal justice system sort it out.

Ah, yes.  The great lefty belief that fighting hardened international terrorists bent on the destruction of our country is a law enforcement issue.

Hey dumbass, it's a war despite the weak ass shit coming from the Obama administration.

19 13 and 14...hahahahahahaha

20

Good grief. How about this guys. Let's let our criminal justice system sort it out.

Ah, yes.  The great lefty belief that fighting hardened international terrorists bent on the destruction of our country is a law enforcement issue.

Hey dumbass, it's a war despite the weak ass shit coming from the Obama administration.

Posted by: JackStraw at April 21, 2009 02:31 PM (VW9/y)

I get it. So now our CIA Director and our CIA interrogators are "hardened international terrorists bent on the destruction of our country".

Good Lord. The stupid. The utter stupid of a wingnut.

21 honest cloud at April 21, 2009 02:39 PM (hOPQH)

Hey asshole, how are you going to square the circle that Pelosi, Harman and Rockefeller among other Dem politicians were briefed on these tactics and signed off on their use in 2002? You want Pelosi brought up on war crimes charges?

Dumber than a box of rocks. Dumber than an empty box.

22 But, why does he hate lawyers?

23

At an early age, I had a pretty good idea of some of the basic precepts upon which America was built.

We were a free country, meaning no other country ruled us, and the government let us be, for the most part.

We were a democracy or republic (remember this is "kid" me) that held fair and open elections.

For these reasons, many people wanted to become Americans.  Oh yeah, another reason was that we NEVER tortured in the name of the state.  Other folks like the USSR and China did, but not us.  We were better than that.

Was I naive?  Or have we changed, and not for the better?

 

24 I wonder how hard the US is going to have to be hit to finally wake up the majority of Americans to the real and permanent danger of allowing the leftist mentality to permeate the political class, media, universities, etc.

How many cities destroyed?

25 Obama is not stupid. He knows that America is divided, fairly closely, on the subject of preventing another mass 9/11 Attack or WORSE.

He also knows that most Yuppies, Women, Gays, Blacks, and Hispanics would on balance welcome another 9/11 Attack or WORSE because it would allow them to deal with domestic enemies: Straight White Guys of working/middle class background by mandating all sorts of Petainist, Vichy-like surrender actions.

Restrictions on speech that "offends" Muslims, Islam as official state religion, or protected, bans on gun ownership, legalized polygamy, bans on criticizing Obama "the One" and so on ... basically what Spain and Britain did after their terror attacks.

Use the occasion to crush the Straight White Guys who are not tragically hip and cool, "morally superior" by way of an Iphone and a Twitter account.

Obama knows he OWNS any attack that happens, and has done his best to make it happen.

His gamble is that there are enough SWPL Yuppies and Women backers who will move against their "real" near enemies: Joe Sixpack, in the event of an attack.

He's probably right. Jim Geraghty has Megan McCain's latest Twitter up. She's raving about Eminem's video where he has simulated sex with the Sarah Palin character. Even the daughter of a Republican Presidential candidate can't escape being young and female. Her attitudes are typical of most young women I encounter, if anything "restrained" in her hard leftism and bitter dislike of cultural conservatism and Joe Sixpack.

Consider this: after 9/11, Michael Moore, Will Smith, Susan Sontag, Norman Mailer, Bill Maher, Joe Biden, Jeanine Garofalo, and many others made outrageous statements admiring the murder of 3,000 Americans and expressing sympathy or backing for AQ. NONE of them had careers ended or got hurt in any way.

No one cares about water up the nose of some Jihadi. Not even SWPL Yuppies or Megan McCain. This is all about the fight for power inside the Western societies. Obama's gamble may pay off.

His only risk is if AQ goes nuclear and kills just too many people, scaring the Megan McCains who are Obama's base into pure survival mode and away from their current highest priority which is punishing/restricting Joe Sixpack.

26 For these reasons, many people wanted to become Americans.  Oh yeah, another reason was that we NEVER tortured in the name of the state.  Other folks like the USSR and China did, but not us.  We were better than that.

And again, READ THE MEMOS. The whole point of them was to come up with a precise definition of torture, so we could be sure we DIDN'T cross that line.

27

mmm...lemonheads at April 21, 2009 02:42 PM (M9dRY

Apparently you are still a kid.  And one without any historical knowledge. 

28 What torques me about these Leftys is that they don't understand that our criminal justice system is a right and privilege of being an American citizen.  By extending access to it, to those not just outside of our social contract - but actively opposing it they cheapen it for all of us.

29

Let's let our criminal justice system sort it out. It's served us pretty well for 230 years.

I love the fact you've abandoned the idiotic "this claim is unsubstantiated" and have graduated to this nonesense.

30 nope, we haven't changed.  you are also not naive-just historically ignorant.  we have always had to make tough decisions in our past regarding the prosecution of wars.  do you think we acted less brutally between 1939 and 1945 than we did post 9/11?  if so, your ignorance is showing.  what appears to have changed is the realization that what we do have might be worth preserving or that, when faced with a brutal and evil enemy, it is worth opposing them and destroying them.   

31 Dishonor can only count for those who have Honor...

32 "Hey asshole, how are you going to square the circle that Pelosi, Harman and Rockefeller among other Dem politicians were briefed on these tactics and signed off on their use in 2002? You want Pelosi brought up on war crimes charges? "

Posted by: JackStraw at April 21, 2009

Hey stupid asshole.

Yes. I want everyone who broke the law brought to justice.

Why is that so hard to understand? And you call me dumb? Geez.

33

Oh yeah, another reason was that we NEVER tortured in the name of the state.  Other folks like the USSR and China did, but not us.  We were better than that.

Lost on you is that those leftist regimes were actually torturing their own citizens absent a war.

Not dunking their head in some water, but actually torturing.

Otherwise, you have a bang-up, apples-to-apples comparison there, chief.

 

34 Yes. I want everyone who broke the law brought to justice.

What law?  They, the lawyers and politicians, defined torture.  They broke the "law" by defining what was illegal.

35

I love the fact you've abandoned the idiotic "this claim is unsubstantiated" and have graduated to this nonesense.

Posted by: Jay at April 21, 2009 02:46

The claim is unsubstantiated nitwit. The guy Bradbury, who claimed it worked is the same guy wrote the memos authorizing the torture. So you've got an accused war criminal saying it's all right what we did because it worked.

You are an imbecile.

36 Jay, you forgot the fuzzy caterpillars.  I'm sure Stalin used fuzzy caterpillars.

37 >>Yes. I want everyone who broke the law brought to justice.

First, you're completely dishonest as was demonstrated last night. I remember when you first showed up here with your "well both sides do it guys" bullshit. You're a liar and your lying about your wanting everyone on your side who was part of this to be "brought to justice".

But more importantly, what law was broken? Be specific and try not to use "feelings".

dipshit.

38

Yes. I want everyone who broke the law brought to justice.

How about Sandy Berger who stuffed top secret papers into his pants

How about Bill Clinton who commited perjury and rape according to Ms. Broderick?

How about Charles Rangel, Tim Geithner, Tom Daschle and all those other tax cheats? 

How about Ted Kennedy who left the scene of an accident which resulted in a homicide?

How about Barney Frank who knowingly had a prostitution ring run out of his house?

 

39 Jean's definitely on the right track here. What law was broken? As I've argued for years, they worked very hard to stay within the confines of the law. Is there room for disagreement? Sure. But I think if you operate within the structure of having lawyers from the executive branch attempt to define the limits of the law, then receive bi-partisan approval from elements of Congress, you'll have a hard time showing that there was any law broken.

40

Of course it worked. That is why the brain-dead fuck-tards want it stopped. Can't have effective questioning techniques. But I think we are right about one thing.

This isn't about torture, or actually bringing charges in a real court. This is about putting on another set of those "hearings" in the Senate and the House with people like pig-snout getting in their shouts and slogans all on camera.

And those cameras. All operated by the MSM who will suck dick, fawn, and generally make every little thing look like a big deal.

They will drag this out for as long as they can while El Duce sells the rest of us down the river.

41

The claim is unsubstantiated nitwit.

Idiot:

I already provided a link to Gen Hayden saying the same thing.

You do realize the party you vote for depends on your ignorance, right?

42

So you've got an accused war criminal saying it's all right what we did because it worked

Um, he is not an "accused war criminal" you abject simpleton.

43

Yes. I want everyone who broke the law brought to justice.

No, actually you do not.

You can't name which "law" was "broken" in this instance.

Further, you've criticized zero, that would be no, elected Democrats on this matter.

Idiot.

44 Yeah they worked GREAT but why did we have to stop after ony 183 times on KSM ?

45 XBradTC,

We may have broken some weenie Euro treaty to which we aren't a party that bans thinking mean thoughts, or Sharia law - maybe caterpillars aren't halal - who knew?

46 perhaps KSM is a little tougher than you or maybe the practice just isn't as tough as it was cracked up to be.  Christopher Hitchens broke faster than that but he isn't an evil fanatical mass murderer.  again, how many of your fellow citizens would you sacrifice to avoid putting a caterpillar in a room with a psychopath?

47 maybe caterpillars aren't halal

Heh. Indeed.

But I'm still patiently waiting for dis-honest cloud or John Ryan to give me an idea of which specific US law was broken...

48 ed, I'd gladly sacrifice YOU to avoid being boxed up with the Hungry Hungry Caterpillar myself...

49 now, as a leftist, the "moral" choice is to use only the interrogation techniques that we use on soldiers who at least exercise some honor by wearing uniforms and conforming their behavior to some civilized standard of conducting the uncivilized act of making war.  in other words, those that break the rules get the same treatment as those that don't but are dumb enough to make easy targets of themselves by wearing uniforms.  gee, I wonder if that will encourage following the rules or not following them. 

50

to ryan and happy, it isn't an abstraction-these are the types who would weep over the psychopath with the caterpillar but shrug their shoulders at the gaping hole in the ground where a building once stood.

51

Yes. I want everyone who broke the law brought to justice.

Why is that so hard to understand? And you call me dumb? Geez.

Wow, you really are a dangerous freak.  I can't believe that people with such severe pathologies -- people who actually want international terrorists, including those captured on foreign battlefields, tried like common carjackers in civilian courts -- are allowed to roam outside of their maximum security psychiatric wards.  Bill Ayers is right -- our incarceration system is broken!

Keep pushing that "war crimes" stuff, freak.  I swear, you and the other guy whose vagina gets all weepy at the thought of a subhuman animal like KSM getting a bath after his halal glazed orange chicken dinner and soccer time in the yard can maybe form an activist group and meet inside a thimble.

52 Show me the "detainees" with missing limbs due to interrogation. Show me the ones who have lost an eye due to interrogation. Show their disfigured faces due to interrogation. Show me their burns due to interrogation. Show me their dismembered corpses due to interrogation. THERE WAS NO TORTURE!

53 Show me their dismembered corpses due to interrogation.

Good luck with that.  Dishonest Cloud ties his shoes with velcro.

54 Posted by: MCPO Airdale at April 21, 2009 03:21 PM (l51zO)

Are you honestly saying that being in a confined space with a caterpillar isn't just as bad as anything you named? A caterpillar, sir!

Have you no decency?

55 Wow, what's bringing all the 'Concerned Christian Conservatives' -types out on this topic? I guess they really are concerned that this might be viewed, gasp!, favorably.

See posts 13, 14, 23, etc.

56

now, as a leftist, the "moral" choice is to use only the interrogation techniques that we use on soldiers who at least exercise some honor by wearing uniforms and conforming their behavior to some civilized standard of conducting the uncivilized act of making war.

But the leftists intentionally forget that we waterboard our own soldiers as part of SERE training, to teach them to resist interrogation. So, the worst mistreatment these terrorist animals get is about equal to the treatment any SERE trained US soldier got. But we've lost the moral high ground.

57

Honest Cloud:

 

ASo you want every one who broke the law to be brought to justice.

 

So you support prosecution against Clinton for initiating renditions?

 

You support charges against Reid and Pelosi for allowing these interrogations to proceed?

 

You would allow Obama to be prosecuted for reserving the right to use these same tactics.

 

By the way your ignorance and education are on display for all to see.  Since when has the US not used torture?  Try looking at the number of the Nuremburg convictions that were overturned because of their use.  Try explaining the methods used against criminals and the military justice system well into the 20th century.

 

Most of all being forced to listen you your whinning is akin to torture and hearing so many lies is also punishment for any misdeeds I may be guilty of.

 

You are a nasty wart on the ass of humanity, dishonest, ignorant, perverting the truth and reason.  But then this is the best thing that can be said of you.  I am sure you have been called worse by your parents and all who know you.

58 I'm with MCPO Airdale. I don't think scaring the terrorists and fucking with them is torture. Calling this torture reminds me of Sol Rosenburg.

59 Thanks for posting this - Hayden was dead on.  Think torture is wrong?  Fine, that's valid, but don't try to load the statement with a hedge like "...and it doesn't work anyways!".

Think about all the criminals who have been convicted solely based on evidence they themselves confessed under police questioning - and unless we're wearing our tinfoil hats, the vast majority of this involved no torture, just persistence and mind games on the part of the cops.

These perps could have simply clammed up and insisted on talking to a lawyer at any time (and probably did, but backed down when told "sure, but if you do that we are pushing for the death penalty, ok?" or etc), but they talked, and are now doing time as a result of what they confessed to.

Even if this is only something like a 20-40% success rate, it demonstrates that pressure, discomfort, cross examination and so forth do work.  What the CIA did was simply take those proven tactics and reinforce them with more severe forms of pressure a la waterboarding et al to get critical life saving information from non-Geneva convention signers, while it was still recent enough to matter.

Of all torture subjects I will bet you...

1-2% of them actually have the training and strength of will to resist, and/or give false answers that stand up even under extreme drugs and cross examination administered by competent torturers - those few are not you, and they are not me - period.

30% will crack, but it will take a long time - as in, maybe a month or two at most.

30% will crack within a few days, under expert interrogation.

The rest could be broken by anyone with pointy objects and the will to use them, within 24 hours tops, no matter how brave they think they are, "alpha" males included.

60 By the way, I use the term "torture" loosely in regard to the CIA - if that was torture then it was torture with a small "t", i.e. as differentiated from the kind that is practiced by the organizations the CIA interrogatees belonged to; the kind that leave you dead or (physically) crippled/disfigured and would be recognizable to the "pros" of 500-1000 years ago.

And by the way when dealing with those operating (de facto, and completely) outside the Geneva convention, then discussions about legal protections (vs things like torture) become moot as I see it.

But mainly I just object to people who say torture doesn't work, and think they know what they're talking about.

61 Former CIA Director: Tough Interrogations Worked; To Deny This Is Dishonorable

It's more than merely dishonorable: it's Liberal, and its Obama.

62 Hearing this:

"For these reasons, many people wanted to become Americans.  Oh yeah, another reason was that we NEVER tortured in the name of the state.  Other folks like the USSR and China did, but not us.  We were better than that."

from a Leftie should generate enough cognitive dissonance to power a small city.

I thought that the US was some horrid genocidal, Gaia-raping, hegemon, staggering through history like a retarded child wielding a Shillelagh in a Waterford Crystal outlet store through The Other's pristine noble savagery?  What changed?  That no longer the party line?

63 "Tough Interrogations Worked"

Do we have anything besides the former CIA director's word for this?

"So some children say that they never work at all"

Some indeed do say that but whether they work or not is not the only objection to torture; there's also the objection that torture is barbaric and abhorrent and against what America stands for, if the eighth amendment and its application to law enforcement is a reasonable indicator of what America stands for. So why do we forbid police to torture criminal suspects in spite of the fact that doing so might prevent some dangerous criminals to be set free to continue their criminal acts against other Americans? I argue that it is because Americans are willing to face the certainty that Americans will be harmed or killed in order to not be known as a country that tortures people. Then there's the possibility that innocent people will be tortured to gain no security whatsoever. While we already knew KSM was a bad guy before torturing him and so that latter is not in consideration, the former is.

64

Craig:

 

Don't put that bug in the same room with me bro.

 

What an idiot you are.

 

You say torture demeans the USA?

But being ready to nuke a nation and kill hundreds of millions of innocents isn't?  Exactly what kind of moral compass do you have?

 

But aside from that why are you so proud in parading your ignorance.  What you call torture was common practice in the time of the founding fathers through modern times.  Physical isolation, sleep deprevation, inflicting physical discomfort are torture?  Obviously you've never served in the military.  But few metrosexuals do.  Torture is listening to people like you distort and destroy the truth and bring it to the level of an Obama promise.

 

No doubt you'd prefer to not inflict any discomfort on a criminal so he can rape and kill again.  That's not what America stands for, maybe Amherst or San Francisco but not America.  And we all know where'd you be if someone killed someone near and dear to you and exactly what you'd be braying, and it wouldn't be the sort of wet sponge reasoning and hysterical whinning one hears from teenagers denied their dessert.

 

You sound like an old maid with testosterone poisoning.  Man up or head for France.  I understand they value cowards there especially the type that depend on their betters to defend them in times of crisis while you deauche your moral superiors.

 

A hypocrite like you can be either an apostate or an imposter since you have no principles and can find nothing worth defending.  You have committed every crime which does not require courage.

Please name one nation that does not employ torture-then go there.

65

The claim is unsubstantiated nitwit.

What's an "unsubstantiated nitwit"?

The guy Bradbury, who claimed it worked is the same guy wrote the memos authorizing the torture. So you've got an accused war criminal saying it's all right what we did because it worked.

Circular argument.

You are an imbecile.

Which you say every 0.0000000000003187 seconds. Don't you have any other insults in your repertoire? Step up your game, bro

66

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67 "But being ready to nuke a nation and kill hundreds of millions of innocents isn't?"

Sorry,. nothing even remotely similar to anything I've written. I don't even have any idea where that came from but it didn't come from me. Straw-man.

"Physical isolation, sleep deprevation, inflicting physical discomfort are torture?"

How about waterboarding/mock executions? And don't bother mentionining SERE training of our troops. None of our troops goes into waterboarding even remotely suspecting that we might let him drown. They know it's a training exercize. Do you suppose KSM knew that? The whole point is to make the guy think he is drowning. KSM and SERE trainees are never in comparable positions, psychologically.

"What you call torture was common practice in the time of the founding fathers through modern times."

Waterboarding/mock executions -- what I call torture -- have been common practice in this country since the founding through...by "modern times", do you mean right up to the present or when?

"No doubt you'd prefer to not inflict any discomfort on a criminal so he can rape and kill again."

I prefer that we not put criminal suspects through mock executions or inflict hypothermia upon them, just to take two examples. That's true, though I've never been to either Amherst or San Francisco. I was born in Chicago, raised in a South suburb, and have otherwise lived in Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana and Florida. Non sequitur.

"That's not what America stands for, maybe Amherst or San Francisco but not America."

Data to back up that totally unsupported assertion? Not to mention that, last time I checked, Amherst and San Francisco are in America and, so, obviously are America. Category fault.

"And we all know where'd you be if someone killed someone near and dear to you and exactly what you'd be braying, and it wouldn't be the sort of wet sponge reasoning and hysterical whinning one hears from teenagers denied their dessert."

Nobody knows where I'd be or what I'd be doing, including you. Unless...you're not Karnak the Magnificent, are you? I don't even know what to call this faulty reasoning...impersonating a fortune-teller, perhaps?

"Please name one nation that does not employ torture-then go there."

No thanks. I'll stay here and argue that torture is beneath us as a nation.

The rest is mere ad hominem name calling, not worth responding to.

68 Craig, do you like apples?

69 Craig, I asked in "the other thread," what price are you willing to pay? What's the limit, where's the line?

70 Look, I can see people saying that it should never be legal, and in any case it happens, the president would hopefully commute the interogator's sentence or something. It's a thorny issue. But please stop saying torture does not work. It does. You are just making yourself look like a child.

I for one, am for it being on the books legal, like water boarding, under supervision, under extreme cases, like mentioned in the story. I see nothing dishonorable in that. Obviously you can not use the evidence in court, but hey this is war, damn the courts.

71 nike store

72

"Physical isolation, sleep deprevation, inflicting physical discomfort are torture?"

 

 How about waterboarding/mock executions? And don't bother mentionining SERE training of our troops.

 

Why not?  I would bet all my net worth that you haven't been through it.

 

 None of our troops goes into waterboarding even remotely suspecting that we might let him drown.

 

That can't be proven.  I went to Basic Training at MCRD San Diego and after being kept awake for three days getting issue, doing paperwork, and other in-processing, my state of mind was altered pretty substantially.  As a personal anecdote, I had to go to sick call to have an ingrown toenail removed several weeks into training.  When the Navy personnel addressed me, I almost broke down into tears because she addressed me in a manner I was no longer familiar with.  I can assure you that I'm not the only one who froze up or didn't know how to respond, because the stress level the Marine Corps maintains in Basic Training is absurdly high.  It is done for a reason, however, and we, being volunteers, for the most part accept it.  Many however could not.  Something like 10-20% wash out, meaning they are incapable of adapting to the mental exertion.

 

"They know it's a training exercize."

 

Again, knowing something while lucid and then being subject to sleep deprivation, change or restriction of diet, physical confinement, dehydration, and/or extreme exertion changes your mental state.  You can't assert as to whether or not those service members knew or did not know they would not be killed at the time - most of the time, they have been dropped off at one point and tasked to reach an objective with little or no food, water, or support.

 

Do you suppose KSM knew that? The whole point is to make the guy think he is drowning. KSM and SERE trainees are never in comparable positions, psychologically.

 

KSM is far more in line, psychologically speaking, with someone who has been through SERE training than you assert.  He had willfully volunteered to undertake activities that very possibly will result in his death to further his cause.

 

"What you call torture was common practice in the time of the founding fathers through modern times."

 

Waterboarding/mock executions -- what I call torture -- have been common practice in this country since the founding through...by "modern times", do you mean right up to the present or when?

 

Wow.  Your ignorance belies almost every single war that the United States has ever fought.

 

"No doubt you'd prefer to not inflict any discomfort on a criminal so he can rape and kill again."

 

I prefer that we not put criminal suspects through mock executions or inflict hypothermia upon them, just to take two examples. That's true, though I've never been to either Amherst or San Francisco. I was born in Chicago, raised in a South suburb, and have otherwise lived in Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana and Florida. Non sequitur.

 

"That's not what America stands for, maybe Amherst or San Francisco but not America."

 

Data to back up that totally unsupported assertion? Not to mention that, last time I checked, Amherst and San Francisco are in America and, so, obviously are America. Category fault.

 

Umm being in does not mean are.  Being in means being a part of.  Your assertion that Amherst and San Francisco are America is false; they are a part of America.   In this case, you're both wrong.  E Pluribus Unum. 

 

"And we all know where'd you be if someone killed someone near and dear to you and exactly what you'd be braying, and it wouldn't be the sort of wet sponge reasoning and hysterical whinning one hears from teenagers denied their dessert."

 

Nobody knows where I'd be or what I'd be doing, including you. Unless...you're not Karnak the Magnificent, are you? I don't even know what to call this faulty reasoning...impersonating a fortune-teller, perhaps?

 

"Please name one nation that does not employ torture-then go there."

 

No thanks. I'll stay here and argue that torture is beneath us as a nation.

 

It may be or may not be, but what occurred was not torture.  You keep falling into the fallacy that what *you*, internet tough guy, determines torture to be is what universally constitutes torture.  I'm sorry to inform you that the law is not based on what *you* think.  Also, you fail to understand that the laws that *do* govern torture are more open to interpretation than *you* think.

73

Craig:

 

You are a straw man.  An excuse for those who prefer evil to triumph by doing nothing.

 

Torture by your definition continues right up to the today ace.  Tell us about solitary confinement wards in prisons numnuts.  Tell us it doesn't exist or how violent prisoners are treated.

 

Yeah tell us about SERE but you can't because you've never served or have any idea who gets such training or how its conducted or where its done.  Can you little man.  But then its apparent to all that those who whine the most can't find it within themselves to actually serve.

 

Unfortunatley most of us have dealt with lowlifes suchas yourself.  People whospend their lifes envying those who have achieved something while they can only ask "do you want fries with that."  People who can achieve anything so define success as perfection knowing it isn't possible.

 

We have all seen people of pathetic achievement who bray endlessly but cannot answer a simple question such as name a nation which doesn't use torture.

 

And like all the witless fools who hate the US they will not leave content to mock their betters because they know the truth.

 

There is nothing as pathic as a man who argues for the rights of terrorists and is ready to sacrifice millions so he can thump his chest about "moral superiority" over the graves of his countrymen.

 

Please pantywaist tell it to the Marines.

Yeah we know about strawmen arguments.  Your a walking example of one.  If one could take the lies out of you you'd shrink to the size of a melon, takethe malice out of you and you'd shrink to the size of Obamie's brain.  Anyone have a microscope.

You don't have education. experience or the morals to lecture anyone except some community organizer.  Put on them high heels and keep walking.

74

Craig has learned his lessons well at the madrassa.  All actions against Holy Warriors are evil.  America is evil.  All who oppose Craig are evil.

 

Please Craig we need you to spread the truth!

75

Craig's America is one in chains and ruins but Carig can say that Americans are united in a suicide pact.

For evil to triumph good men must do nothing.  But Craig is willing to do nothing and cheers wants evil.  American's do not not want Craig's distorted vision to become real.  Its too demented for words.

76 Why am I not surprised to not get and answer?

77

Why am I not surprised to see slugs like Craig arguing that if you don't treat terrorists like choirboys this country is somehow tainted?  Who put Craig up for sainthood and if he isn't worthy then damn him and his bloodline.

 

Isn't that what you were saying Craig.

 

A leftwingnut flees even from a brownie.

78

Craig's motto:

 

Speak incoherently and carry a limp dick.

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