1 If true, it's also more proof, if any were needed, that Gonzalez was one of the most incompetent men to hold the office of Attorney General in history.

Small consolation to those of us who were endlessly pointing this out during his tenure.

2 I can kind of understand this.  Harman is a pretty hawkish Democrat, and I'm sure Bush understood that he needed her support when it came to GWoT stuff. 

And "waddling into" something and trying to lobby for a person's cause is not illegal.  I could try to do that personally, but nobody would give a shit because I'm just an ordinary citizen of course.  So the question is: is it ethical for her to throw her weight around as a congresswoman like this?  Meh.  Doesn't seem like too big a deal to me to be honest.

Is there some shortage of outrages being done by the democrats that we need to focus in on this?

3 Thats why I missed John Ashkkkroft

4

 If true, it's also more proof, if any were needed, that Gonzalez was one of the most incompetent men to hold the office of Attorney General in history.

Give Holder some time - surely Gonzalez can be runner up...

5 Lucky for Gonzalez, Holder's doing his best...

6 This is why the ALL need to go so we can start over.

7

Dude, give Holder time he's only been in office a few months, I'm quite sure he'll give Gonzalez a run for his money (or is that cowardly of me?)

I can't figure out where to fall on this particular scandal, can a smarter moron than me connect the dots as to why this is good/bad/indifferent?

8

Is it just me or does Eric Holder bear more than a passing resemblence to Yanni?

 

9 I really don't get what was illegal here? Don't people call Congresspeople for leniency every day? It's not as if she voted or crafted some legislation to suit them. Although they may have happened for all I know.

10 Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at April 20, 2009 11:38 AM (AJ4xq)

Harman wanted to chair the intelligence committee and she was willing to trade help to get that for trying to get leniency for two guys on behalf of a foreign government. Had it worked she would have been compromised. Some day her 'friend' may have wanted some information the CIA didn't want to share. Now she's subject to blackmail.

As for Gonzalez...refusing to hold a member of congress with access to sensitive information accountable for trading favors with an agent of another country to keep a political ally viable, falls somewhere between criminal and impeachable in my mind.

11 was one of the most incompetent men

I still say he loses to Janet Reno.

12 I am a big Israel supporter, but they need to let this Pollard thing drop - there is always this inept lobbying going on. Everyone knows that nations spy on their allies as well as their enemies, but when you get busted publicly, you have to pay the piper.  The Pollard-lobbying just feeds the paranoid ZOG types.  Let things cool off for a couple of years and then do a deal like you would for any other spy.

13 Speaking of Reno and Nepolitano - what is this thing with the Dems and big bull dykes in law enforcement?  I am starting to see a trend here...

14 More fuel for the anti-Israel elements in the government, I'm sure.

It's the "sausage making" aspect of government. Remember the Iran-Contra fiasco back in Reagan's administration? Or the Chinese influence peddlers in the Clinton years? Or...well, I could go on. This kind of thing has always skirted right up to the edge of criminality (and often sailed right over). This kind of quid pro quo dealmaking is just one of the many noxious side-effects of a government grown too large to be accountable.

Also: it should come as no shock that Israel spies on us. We spy on them too, I guarantee you. Knowing America's policy intentions vis-a-vis Israel is an existential matter for them. We spy on them for similar reasons (although our fate is not so closely tied to Israeli intentions).

15
Blagovich just called and said, "What the fuck?"

16 Also: it should come as no shock that Israel spies on us. We spy on them too, I guarantee you.
Posted by: Monty at April 20, 2009 11:45 AM (/0a60)

Yeah, it's just business, nothing personal.

Supposedly the only country we never spied on was the UK (at least after WWII).

17 Supposedly the only country we never spied on was the UK (at least after WWII).

Posted by: DrewM. at April 20, 2009 11:48 AM (hlYel)

There's no need to spy on the British, they couldn't keep a secret if it was glued to them.

18

Thanks DrewM for the concise answer to my question.

19 Harman would only have been doing something really wrong if she knew the caller was suspected of being an Israeli agent. And even then, it might not be illegal. What's an agent? Someone who has some tie to the Israeli government? What if it is an American businessman who happens to do business with the Israeli government.

The reason Gonzalez gave her a pass was there was nothing to prosecute.

20 Harmon must still be somewhat of an American...this is a twofer...get rid of her and stink on Bush...

These people are good (evil)

The repubs. are snoozing to the oldies today I guess...100 million where is the outrage...
900 million hamas, billions to ACORN....pork everywhere....what an insult.....

21 Is it just me or does Eric Holder bear more than a passing resemblance to Yanni?

Now that you mention it...he does!!

22 HE SUCKED!  ELEVENTY!11!!!

23

Everyone knows that nations spy on their allies as well as their enemies

BTW, thanks for the blueprints to the Obamatron 5000, holdfast. I'm sure Canada's agricultural output will increase significantly with that new, Top Secret, bullshit spreader. And do you just want the Valu-Rite in payment this time or would you like the hobo package instead?

24 Wow, talk about a clusterfuck of a case.

25 Why would Israel spy on America? Well, think as an Israeli would: "Iran is a threat, but America either cannot or will not attack them. That leaves us. However, if we attack, Iran will retaliate against the United States as well as us. What do the US politicians really think? How would they react if we attack Israel?" No politician or diplomat who values his job is going to answer the Israelis straight, so back-channel assets must be cultivated.

Also, the notion that we didn't spy on the UK after WWII is a myth. The NSA's HARVEST eavesdropping system gathered tons of UK intel during the 1950's. And an operation called (I think) UPSTART was operational in England during the Suez crisis to keep Eisenhower abreast of English/French intentions in that area.

26 Okay let's get this right ... here we have again another Democrat engaged in corruption and we can't get excited because the Bush administration was also involved?

The Bush administration was it's own worst enemy - I swear.

Anyway - this fairly conservative Democrat will now be crucified by Nancy Pelosi and held up as an example of how Democrats "police corruption in the party".  Meanwhile all the real scalawags - like Rangle, Dodd, and Franks get a pass.

Once again the Bush Administration rides to the salavation of the Democratic Party!

27 Missing link: Harman actually doing anything to lobby the JD.  Read it again.  There's nothing there.  Moreover, she got nothing. 

28 Monty: "This kind of quid pro quo dealmaking is just one of the many noxious side-effects of a government grown too large to be accountable."

All the more reason to continue the push for a giant federal purge. The increasingly absolute power is getting dangerously corrupt if it isn't already. How did it come to pass that this type of "sausage making" was acceptable to us besides the fact that we are kept intentionally ignorant of the practice?

This is a serious mess and I should hope that, at a minimum, consideration for a special prosecutor is underway.

29

What is wrong about Gonzalez  trading a possible BS criminal charge for support on a very important national security project?

She was not giving away secret plans to an enemy, she was going to call up an Assistant AG or Deputy AG and be told:  "Congresswoman, we looked into it and our evidence is very strong." 

30

Eric Holder and Yanni.

Separated at birth!

31 How did it come to pass that this type of "sausage making" was acceptable to us besides the fact that we are kept intentionally ignorant of the practice?

I agree, but it's a little late to be complaining about it. This practice has been de rigeur since, oh, 1918 or so. At the very least since the Bretton Woods agreement after World War II. I think there was an implicit, unspoken agreement among major Western governments that a certain level of espionage had to be tolerated in order to prevent further wars from breaking out. Unfortunately, when governments of free nations condone unethical behavior -- even implicitly -- it leads to other kinds of bad behavior. Politicans are human, after all, and are prone to the same weaknesses as everyone else.

The only advantage we have in this kind of thing is that closed/totalitarian governments are about a million times more corrupt and inefficient than we are.

32

Uhhh... the Israelis have been involved in domestic spying for a long time, and have even sold defense tech to Chinkville. They serve themselves. Can anyone out there say "Jonathan Pollard " ?

Harmon is another of the Plasticine Dimdames that constitute the CA delegation. BFS. Stretch will cover her ass and bring an investigation.

33 Drew jumps from a "waddling in, if" statement to an actual deal.   The juicy nugget which is obviously being used to establish consciousness of guilt is "This conversation doesn't exist".  Which amounts to exactly bupkis if nothing happened as a result.  Juicy, but ultimately meaningless.   It's tantamount to conspiracy to conspire at a future date.  At some point, like here, the inchoate 'offense' amounts to nothing. 

And what great timing, grist for the Durban II "Israel = racism" conference.  Why not just reprint a limited edition Protocols?  Or has Obama already paid for that by sending 900 mil to Hamas? 

34 Witness the glory of bi-partisan politics in its unfettered splendor. With the favors here for favors there. Their arrogant attitude toward the rule of law brings light to the popular sentiment against the political class that brought rise to our current President. A principal before politics candidate. Who is slowly being discovered as just another politician. Watch the cognitive dissonance set in as they open the box and inwardly realize the product that is delivered is nothing like the product description in the catalog. Republicans need to get out of the habit of having or involving themselves these little deals if they want to regain the credibility of their platform. Ugh!

35 Posted by: Chip Abu Hussein Sayf Al-Dawla Islam at April 20, 2009 12:13 PM (sOtz/)

According to the story prosecutors felt she committed 'a complete crime'. Remember the story is about the revelation of the wiretap, not the complete investigation. If she spoke to anyone at Justice about the case, she should have been screwed.



Posted by: Bob from Ohio at April 20, 2009 12:13 PM (ROFkf)

Because he was supposed to enforce the laws, whether or not it was politically convenient to. As we see with Napolitano, mixing politics and prosecutions is dangerous.

36 Monty,

Yes, I understood you're not fond of the practice. I was trying to emphasize the degenerating path we've been taking and that it is yet another thing on the list of grievances pissing off the public.

"Politicans are human, after all, and are prone to the same weaknesses as everyone else."

I'd wager politicians are more prone since they're more likely to be superlatively power hungry and, knowingly, employed in a construct increasingly protected by the state apparatus - an apparatus to which they control some of the very levers set in place to restrict them. Foxes and henhouses.

A grassroots revolution cannot come quickly enough.

37 was one of the most incompetent men

I still say he loses to Janet Reno.

But Reno's not a ma... Oh, never mind.

38 A grassroots revolution cannot come quickly enough.

In this political climate? I don't see it. Not now, and not for quite awhile. Since the Civil War era, Americans have been notably reluctant to engage in large-scale insurrection against the government. Even the civil-rights and anti-war marches of the 1960's weren't particularly violent considering the numbers involved. No, I think that America right now is pretty much what it's going to be for the foreseeable future -- both good and bad things. I may revise my opinion during the midterm elections, but even a huge GOP resurgence (which I don't think will happen) really won't disprove my point.

Americans just aren't revolutionaries. We're too comfortable, too rich, and too complacent. If 9/11 couldn't jar us out of this mindset, I don't know what would. Invasion, maybe, but there is no power or combination of powers on earth that could invade us. (Note that I said "on earth" -- our alien overlords may yet be looking at our planet with envious eyes.)

39 This is a great disappointment to me...I thought she was a lot smarter than that. 

That is the kind of conversation that needs to happen 3 miles out to sea on a rental boat picked randomly at the dock, with everyone wearing speedos and bikinis, and all bags left in the car.

Since she's proven herself to be an incredibly naive dipshit, I really don't care what Obie's crew does to her.  Her prior perceived value was only a mirage.

40 Speaking of Reno and Nepolitano - what is this thing with the Dems and big bull dykes in law enforcement?

President O'bumble decided that, in the interests of diversity, someone needed to represent testicular fortitude in his administration.

41

More handwringing and Bush bashing by 'conservatives' whose only info on this subject is a news report by the MSM.  Useful idiots all of you.

42
I call bullshit.

The only source of the report is a supposedly leaked National Security Agency wiretap. There is no way to verify the wiretap, or its content, so there's no reason to believe the leak.

But let's assume it's true, just for the sake of argument. Just how the hell was an NSA wiretap was leaked? Those are ultra-secret, and anyone caught doing it will be facing serious time in a fed supermax. So, why this leak? And why now? Well, the administration, and its anti-Israel agenda profit: they have motive and opportunity, so they have to be the prime suspect.

If this is true, then it's highly probable that the NSA and its archives are now just another political tool for the administration to use against its opponents. The very thing that leftards accused Bush of, groundlessly, is now becoming a reality under Obama.

43

Did she know the guy/gal was an Israeli agent. If not this is plain old political manipulation.

 

I would also like to know how we found out about this.  Considering Harman is considered to be one of the more reliable Democrats with regard to Intelligence matters.

44

"Because he was supposed to enforce the laws, whether or not it was politically convenient to."

Prosecutorial descretion. 

Which is more important, spying on terrorists or possibly getting someone for making a useless telephone call to Justice? 

The AIPAC case is still going on.  Nothing happened.  

 

 

45 Pollard was the biggest security breach in th whole history of this country. MAny think that the info that he sold to Israel was passed on to the USSR and they in turn allowed 1 million Russian Jews to go to Israel. All very murky.

46

I'm less interested in the supposed actions of Harman and Gonsalez than I am in the question of who or what is served by the release of this report.

I think we all know who, but why does he want this information in the public domain now? Is he about to do something that necessitates destroying the credibility of one of the last democrats who might stand up to him on matters of national security? Is it a demonstration of power and consequences for some other unnamed legislator who might be thinking of going off the loony lib reservation?

47

If this is true, then it's highly probable that the NSA and its archives are now just another political tool for the administration to use against its opponents. The very thing that leftards accused Bush of, groundlessly, is now becoming a reality under Obama.

That's why they accused Bush of it.  They knew they would do it so they believe their political opponents of also engaging in the practice.  "What would I do?  Well then they must be doing the exact same thing!  I am outraged!"  And as gets pointed out, its never about what was being done, its about that a guy with an R after his name was doing it.

Kind of like how some Republicans believe that if they are polite and non-hostile in opposition, they will be treated in a similar manner.  Its putting your virtues/vices onto the person across the aisle.

48

16

Actually, Bush's NSA spied on Tony Blair earlier this decade.

49 Prosecutorial descretion.
Posted by: Bob from Ohio at April 20, 2009 01:33 PM (ROFkf)

Prosecutorial discretion generally involves 'the interest of justice' not being able to have a high profile congresswoman in your back pocket.

That's the problem if this is true, Harman was compromised first by her deal and then by the administration. She was bought and paid for, again if it's true.

50

Obama just bowed out of a U.N. conference on racism because they were going to discuss Israeli racsim. If it only focused on U.S. racism, I'm sure he would have been there. One more example of the Israeli stranglehold on U.S. foreign policy, and yes, the necocons were responsible for the Iraq war.

On Eric Holder- his decision to give a pardon to Puerto Rican nationalist cop-killers during the Clinton administration is criminal.

 

51 Let Berger go with a slap on the wrist.

Let Harman go without even a slap.

Meanwhile, Dems can get Republicans to resign in disgrace by simply being accused of crimes....then after the elections of course, the charges are dropped....hmmmmm.

52 Oh, and we should not give Israel a free pass to spy on us for the following reasons:

1. Foreign governments often use this trick where the Russians claim to be the Israelis, so the patriotic American thinks its okay to give them secrets. (China does this claiming to be Taiwan...)

2. Israel might itself be being spied on, thus any secrets given to them may be passed on.

3. Israel seemed to want a lot of intel from Pollard - not just about threats to Israel.

4. Israeli interests do not always align with our interests....such as when they wanted to sell China advanced avionics or when they build spy sats for India.

I am pro-Israel, but any intel should be shared with them on a voluntary basis and Israel should not spend its resources on spying in the USA.

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