1 A guy who might actually push budget cuts in New York?  Unthinkable.

Go Rudy go.

2 I think if the economy still sucks by next year, it won't matter what Rudy and hopefully other republicans think of gay marriage or most other issues.  The economy will be the issue and we should clean house. 

3 OT:  Has anyone tried NIKE SHOX?

4 I have not tried NIKE SHOX yet, but I have the sudden unexplainable urge to go buy 100 pairs.

5

Whaddaya mean, "too New York"?

http://tinyurl.com/d35hup 

(It's not self-promotion; I've retired from blogging.)

6 First Tea Parties, and then this? Lets hope that the Opposition to our bad moron President actually does come from the bottom up; real, broad grass roots of horrified Americans, including those who woke up after the election to discover that WE DID NOT SIGN UP FOR THIS!!!!!!!!

7 So "same sex marriage" is a political dead weight for the Democrats in even very left wing states like CA and NY - and Republicans interested in winning elections are raising the SoCon flag... But...but... McCain Jr and Frum tell me we can't win if we don't adopt left wing positions like supporting gay marriage?!?

8 I haven't been a big fan of Rudy's for a long time but but if he can save NY then God Bless him.

9 That name in the Utica phone book would do a better job than the Narcissist/Betrayer-in-Chief we have now.

10

The thing that irritates me about the same sex marriage debate is that it is constantly being framed as a "if you are opposed to this you are opposed to gays" thing. I think that's a convenient cop-out, because in a lot of cases it seems like it is more the agenda to force churches to recognize the relationships.

I was indifferent for a long time, until that video of those guys hassling that little old lady was shown and now I'm finding myself way less sympathetic to the pro-same sex marriage side.

If a civil union conveys the exact same benefits as a "marriage" why isn't that good enough?

11 This is probably an attempt to stave off third-party interest.  New York has an elaborate third-party system and a number of minor parties -- Conservative and Liberal among them -- carry some sway.  These parties are often run by a small cabal but they can choose to put the GOP or Dem candidate on their "line" or not.  As such, the "Conservative" candidate may not be the most conservative, but someone who pleased the party leader.

However, a GOP candidate who also runs on the Conservative line will get a double endorsement and it keeps the Republican discontent down.

Rudy is beloved in NYC, will get plenty of the suburban vote and, with either an explicit Conservative endorsement or at least a sufficient amount of support from the right will clean up upstate.

I've always said NY Gov was the best job for Rudy.  Even better than Senator.

12 Hilarious -- this man Patterson is getting killed in the polls due to his incompetence, and what does he do?  He brings up the issue of same-sex marriage.

If that doesn't tell you how politically opportune the who issue is, you're not paying attention.  It has little to do with 'equality' or 'rights' -- and everything to do with power.

13 The thing that irritates me about the same sex marriage debate is that it is constantly being framed as a "if you are opposed to this you are opposed to gays" thing.

But that's what it is about.  At least for the same-sex marriage proponents.  They don't care about actual marriage.  There's no law now against having a marriage ceremony at all.  They can both wear white dresses or both wear tuxedos or whatever.  You just don't get a license after it's over.  That's it.

It's all about forcing social approval of their lifestyle.  Well, there are other things, like a long-term goal of attacking churches by eventually forcing them to perform these things, but that's down the road.  For the rank-and-file supporters, the issue is largely a psychological need to be affirmed and approved of.

14

For the rank-and-file supporters, the issue is largely a psychological need to be affirmed and approved of.

Yup.

15 Drew, I agree, Giuliani v. Cuomo would just RULE.  Mainly because there would be none of that fakey "my esteemed colleague" crap. 

16

If a civil union conveys the exact same benefits as a "marriage" why isn't that good enough?

You answered your own question.

The thing that irritates me about the same sex marriage debate is that it is constantly being framed as a "if you are opposed to this you are opposed to gays" thing. I think that's a convenient cop-out, because in a lot of cases it seems like it is more the agenda to force churches to recognize the relationships.

With civil unions you don't have that ability to really attack the traditional institutions.  And the problem with framing it as you have really is evidence.  Since its not there we are pretty much grabbing at a nebulous idea that isn't an issue until they get their way.  So we can claim it will be an attack on churches and they can just go "nuh-uh, you're just being paranoid." 

And civil unions is all that they should be pushing for anyways.  That confers on them some legal recognition with the legal rights they claim they want.  They want to have a ceremony where they declare their love infront of friends and family, then they can do it.  If they want it in a church, well then find a church that will allow it.  Call yourselves husband or wife.  Claim you're "married."  Is anyone really actually going to make a big giant stink out of that?

17

And yeah I realize there are some out there that do feel marriage offers them a legitimacy in society that they don't get with a civil union.

The thing is, that they've spent probably about the past 50 years trying to get the government out of their bedrooms, and now they want it right back in.

18 I like Giuliani's stance on many issues. But his stance, over his career, on gun control, is something I can't abide. I feel this issue limits his appeal to rural conservatives, and probably was a big problem during his presidential campaign. (The NRA ran media campaigns against him during the primary) Unless he changes his thinking on the matter (and convinces the conservative constituency that he has) I don't think he will get widespread conservative support. 

19
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20 Speaking of the NY Governor's Race

Spitzer is now ahead of Paterson according to Sienna College poll.

I just love living in New York!!!!111!!1

21

The great unanswered question for and about Rudy: 

What the hell was that whole waiting-until-Florida thing about?

 

22 21

The great unanswered question for and about Rudy: 

What the hell was that whole waiting-until-Florida thing about?

 

Apparently he had never heard about guys like Rove, Axelrod, and Carville. If he had then he might have been the first multi-divorced president. Better than the first Marxist president.

23 The only man who ran in 08 with the biggest balls, (not you Hillary) was Rudy. He not only had the experience, but the moxy to trump whatever McCain had. He would have changed his stance on the 2nd. Unfortunately, he had the staff that couldn't even change a tire.

24 NYer's apparently don't like the word "marriage" as applied to same sex couples.  They seem to prefer, from what I've read, the word "marriage" to only be applied to a man and a woman.  But, they want same sex partners to be able to see their partners in the hospital, etc.  So it is semantics.  Wonder when Pattison is going to realize that by allowing same sex marriage he is going to lose enormous tax revenue.  They will be able to file jointly right?  The won't be single filers anymore.  So, he will then tax all those rich people who make more than $250 grand so they will finally leave his state for good and move somewhere else.  Rudy is the best, shame he totally screwed up his campaign.

25

Posted by: muffy at April 20, 2009 12:51 PM (zplc6)

 

For that you need to ask Harlem. If NYC is anything like south central LA, then even our brownskinned brothers in arms don't like that whole guys getting married thing.

26 AmishDude gets it.

27 Bigger question is why he threw his support to McCain after Florida.

28 27 Bigger question is why he threw his support to McCain after Florida.

Posted by: polynikes at April 20, 2009 01:17 PM (m2CN7)

 

Because the only man left was Romney and he was a pussy. Like the guy, but he screwed up healthcare in Taxachusetts.

29 Andrew Cuomo can be safely discounted as a candidate at this time, not having had a known extramarital episode yet.

30 Can I ask a question? It seems to me to be a conflicting viewpoint. Why do conservatives, who are against federal intererence in states' business as well as personal lives, object to a marriage license being issued to a gay couple?

31

Posted by: JEA at April 20, 2009 01:57 PM (WGbtD)

 

I used to not care and I am a conservative. But when the petulant pussies in California started whining then threatening then abusing Prop 8 people, then I started not giving a fuck if gay people ever got married. It's the attitude that turned me off. Hell if gay people want to be miserable then get married. I always thought that gay people had it made. You know, fuck whoever and whenever you want and damn the consequences. But if you act like petulant assholes when you lose a vote and don't have the balls to picket and threaten the groups that voted against you the most (like the blacks and the hispanics) then fuck you, you don't deserve to get married.

 

 

32 I agree w/you in the case of Calif - they shouldn't whine.

33 32 I agree w/you in the case of Calif - they shouldn't whine.

Posted by: JEA at April 20, 2009 02:06 PM (WGbtD)

 

Other than that, be miserable like the rest of us Hets and get married. Who gives a shit.

34 I do, however, see a lot of conservatives totally opposed to it anywhere.

35 We pick our battles. I don't like it. You know the whole plug only goes into the outlet kind of thing, plus how many gay couples got pregnant the old-fashioned way. I personally think that civil unions are just good enough. But, if you want to call it marriage then who am I to judge, since I've been divorced three times. Gays are not discriminated against, contrary to what they would lead you to believe. Trust me, I'm as het as they get, but if I need an interior decorator or my wife needs a real hairstylist, then I'm gonna call a gay guy.

36 Rudy really could have a shot with this. First Spitzer and then Paterson has gone out of their way to piss off Catholics in the state. They stripped money from parochial schools, they're working on a state version of FOCA, and now this?
It gives Rudy a largish base of disaffected voters.
Provided he can get his message out in the liberal din that is NY politics, he may have a shot.

Posted by: JEA at April 20, 2009 01:57 PM (WGbtD)

Many conservatives are opposed to gay marriage because they view it as an attack on traditional values, which it is. Statists push gay marriage, alternative livestyles etc. as a way of underming the predominate culture/society. The statist wants to overthrow the current society because they view it as flawed "its not fair". They beleive that they can achieve a utopia, but only if all the old structures of society are removed and replaced with the "scientific state". Thus institutions that strengthen and reinforce the current society are viewed as obstacles to be overcome. Churches, boy scouts, the military etc are good examples. But the core of a society is its base unit, and in ours that's the nuclear family. Its the foundation upon which all the other aspects of society are built. If it can be undermined then the current culture has no base, and falls, allowing the statist to replace it with what he wants. As the conservative wishes to conserve the society he is in, he resists attempts to change its fundamental nature.
Why do you think Hillary's book was "It takes a village"? Substitute "village" for "state".
And that's just a cliffnotes version of one aspect of the conservative opposition to gay "marriage"

37

Posted by: Iblis at April 20, 2009 02:31 PM (9221z)

 

Okay, you read Liberty and Tyranny, so did I. I don't see a big statist conspiracy involving gay marriage. Do I agree that gays should marry? No! But, until we as real conservatives start living up to what the Bible teaches us which we never will, then let them get married. I am an atheist, but always follows what Jesus teaches us. (yeah I know that is weird, but I only believe the Jesus that taught versus the supernatural Jesus, and I also believe that Joseph was his biological father). Look, I feel that our ( conservatives) biggest problems about gay marriage is the children issue. That is also my biggest issue. But I was a cop for 10 years and came to realize that children have become pawns in this power grab by both leftists and conservatives. I personally think and can prove that children are better off with male and female active parents. Unfortunately, that is not the case in a growing majority of households in our society. So, I am left to adjust my conservative views to allow children the ability to grow up in a healthy happy adjusted way of life even if it is contrary to my personal views.

38

There's also the fact that the gay marriage initiatives have almost all come from court rulings.  Several times these court rulings are overturning legislature that was passed by the state or acts of legislating from the bench.  Its why I think you can expect to see more conservative outrage at places like California and Iowa rather than Vermont, which passed its gay marriage by the legislature.  This isn't the only issue of course, but its the issue some people see as the problem.

But, until we as real conservatives start living up to what the Bible teaches us which we never will, then let them get married.

Sounds an awful lot like the argument that if we can't take out all evil dictators simultaneously then we're not allowed to go after one.

39

Posted by: buzzion at April 20, 2009 02:59 PM (Lrsi6)

 

Look, I am all in favor of letting the voters decide without activist judges fucking us and the constitutional restrictions they are so in favor of breaching. But on a purely emotional and biblical adjustment, then I have to defer to the fact that until we clean up our proverbial house first, then we have no room to talk. Savvy?

40 Something I don't understand: Why do gays in this country want same-sex marriage legalized in all states? As a lawyer, I have done many many same sex marriage dissolutions. Right now, all a couple has to do is establish residency in a state that does not recognize same sex marriage and then file an intent to dissolve. In many states, they don't even need a court order. So easy!!

I guess divorce attorneys should be supportive of universal same sex marriage.

41 FJF, I like the term statist because I think progressive-liberalism is such a misnomer that its beyond Orwellian. Its easy to use, its accurate, and its evil-sounding.

Its not a conspiracy, its a shared set of values ideas and aspirations whose roots go straight back to Marx and Engle, and even earlier. Statists think that man can be improved through science and reason. Marriage in and of itself means nothing to them. But seen in the context of reshaping a society, Marriage becomes a key battle. Who gets to define it, and who reaps its benefits. You're right that children are the focus, as it is through them that a society continues, through the passing on of values, norms etc.
Why do you think early statists focused so much effort on our fledgling public school systems. Look at how John Dewey viewed the role of the school in society as a vehicle to improve society by inculcating "progressive" values in the next generation. The funny thing about public schools is the parallels to the healthcare debate. Statists got business to support public schools as a way to offload the cost of training future workers onto the state, much like they entice business with the idea of dumping their healthcare costs on the state.

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