1 Someone likes it.

DOW is up 161, NASDAQ 30 and S&P 16.

2

What's the hook, though? 

The price for Messiah's plans are always steep.

3

To achieve the goal of freeing up more lending, the program would entice private investors with low-cost loans provided by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation and the Federal Reserve. The government would also shoulder the vast bulk of the risk.

So, basically, the Fed & FDIC will loan private entities the money to invest in this new super toxic assets purchasing fund? Why not just call it TARP II and cut the shell-game? Oh that's right...this is the cool, detached, and ironic cousin of TARP.

4 Yeah, obviously investors are pretty happy. All three indexes are still up very high. 

5

"the administration said it plans to use $75 billion to $100 billion from the government's existing $700 billion bailout program for this purpose"

This kind of thing never sits well with me.  Was this $75 - $100B already in the bailout bill that was signed into law?  If it was, then why isn't this a concrete figure?  If the whole thing was really just a $700B slush-fund, then what other things are gonna get the axe in order to make room for this instead?  Or is it all simply the money that's left-over after various governors say "thanks, but no-thanks" to the strings attached?  It just doesn't seem right for them to be allocating after-the-fact a good 10% - 14% of the total bailout package.

6 when neil cavuto says it is a good thing, then i'll re-invest in the market

7 toxic assets now have become legacy assets.  nice huh?

8 Dial Information:  US/Canada Dial-in #: ( 888 ) 828 - 1821 Conference ID # 91852326"    http://tinyurl.com/e88bk  "From: redacted at do.treas.govDate: Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 8:19 AM  Subject: TODAY at 10am: Conference Call with Senior Treasury Officials"  http://tinyurl.com/e88bk

9 Is there some delay mechanism to slow down the velocity of this money?

10 The Dow is now up over 200 points.  The S&P is up 3 percent.  Nasdaq is up 2.67 percent. 

11 One of the problems with this plan is that noone knows what these toxic assets are really worth - no private investor playing with their own money will lay out cash for assets that are overvalued.  Are these loans worth .60 on the dollar, .30, .10?  If the banks are basically insolvent (how could they not be and participate in this?) then they need to go BK and sell off what's left - only then will the market bottom and then rebound - all this does is delay the inevitable.    

12 At least now the investors know that nothing will happen.

Exactly who in their right mind would volunteer to become a political target

13 "1 Someone likes it.

DOW is up 161, NASDAQ 30 and S&P 16.

Posted by: David in San Diego at March 23, 2009 08:50 AM (GF+6V)"

Pimpco love it but then again weren't they buying up toxic assets in the beginning?

14 Major disclaimer, I don't do investment/IPO work or the like at all, but I have a hard time believing that an investment in these types of assets by a pension fund would be found to be a reasonable exercise of the fund managers' discretion. If/when these tank, then we're looking at another huge round of litigation from the investors saying that the managers breached their fiduciary duties due to the well publicized and obvious risks. Relying on government backing may no longer be the out it has been in the past. I could be, and probably am, completely talking out my ass here, but it certainly seems to me like that's a problem.

15 'Toxic Assets', huh?

In my day we called them 'Liabilities'.

16 Another thing that yanks my chain is that if this is the cure-all that they're saying will make a difference, why the hell didn't they do this back in Sept. '08 when the express purpose of TARP I was to rid the banks of the toxic assets?  What's changed b/w then and now so that this is the answer?  I hope that they're not just doing this b/c they're out of bullets.

17 They are live blogging the treasury call at Dealbreaker.  http://tinyurl.com/cbk5d9

18

alexthechick at March 23, 2009 09:08 AM

Agreed.  The only way that I see this being a good investment for the private sector is if they essentially give these assets away OR the Feds guarantee a minimum return/value for the assets.  Otherwise, it's DOA.  Something tells me though that some investors will make a fortune on these - otherwise why play the game?   

 

19 Why would any want to buy the toxic assets as a bargain price with "financing" when the current administration will screw the investor on the capital gains? I mean the appeal of this plan is based on the future value of the assets, right?

20 I almost never agree with the Krugster, but he's on point today: this is just another do-over on Paulson's original (and badly-flawed) idea to buy out the bad debt from banks to heal their balance sheets. In other words, Geithner and Bernanke have taken three months to come up with essentially the same idea that Paulson had six months ago -- a plan that wouldn't have worked then and won't work now.

The problem the Administration is desperately trying to work around isn't one of frozen lending. The problem has that many banks are simply insolvent. And they're making the same mistake the Japanese did back in the 1990's by making "zombie banks" which soak up capital but cannot function as a bank should.  The Fed and the Treasury are operating on pure fear right now: they are getting no leadership from either the White House or from Congress, but rather lots of faux-populist bloviating that is only exacerbating the problem.

In fact, the problem is so glaring that even other countries are beginning to notice it: our government is not staffed by adults. It is instead a high-school clique, blown to and fro by popular opinion, "smart" in a narrow sense but desperately short of common-sense and real-work experience. In short, the American government is now what they have always accused it of being -- arrogant, short-sighted, feckless, and thoughtless.  The upcoming G20 meeting will be interesting, if only to see if the push to move the financial levers of power out of America gains any traction. There are many reasons why banks and brokerages might prefer a different financial center: Switzerland seems like an obvious choice. There would be no 90% marginal tax rates, no populist overturns of existing contract law, and less fear of being whipsawed every four years by fickle public opinion. It's a frighteningly possible scenario, and if it comes to pass we'll have only ourselves to blame for it.

21 Call it what you will, this is nothing more than a financial sector bail out.

Everyone likes free money, so the markets will love it. Once the max out Timmay's credit card, it's back to Ramen noodles. Then the credit card bills will start coming in and the Rent-A-Center truck will be in the driveway for the 60" plasma TV.

22 The meme for this thing should be :  Lack of Imagination

23 The key question in evaluating any Treasury plan is:  How does this benefit Goldman Sachs?

24 The treasury wants to hire managers.

25 We got in trouble because we created a credit bubble where the government guaranteed that liabilities would actually be assets.  Now we are going to fix it by guaranteeing that more liabilities will be assets.  These guys are just totally incapable of learning a single damn thing.  The problem wasn't that the credit bubble burst, it was that we had a credit bubble.

If you go to Vegas and are told you can keep your winnings and Uncle Sam will eventually pick up the check for your losses then you will bet the house and if you get behind then you will just bet bigger.  If you run out of money in the interim then you can just run outside and sell your debt at 90 cents on the dollar to someone who can afford to wait (mortgage backed securities anyone?). 

This is why I say that even at this point NOTHING of any substance has been done to address the problem.  We are fighting a fire by pouring gasoline on it.

26

How is it a good idea to give high risk loans to individuals to buy up securities comprising other high risk loans?

How is it a good idea for a fund manager to invest in these? Normally, this is what you'd call a high risk, high reward scenario; now it's a high risk, high reward/lynching scenario. So, the best outcome would be just to lose your friggin' money so the Dems don't send the mob after you and your kids.

27 How are these accounted for under "mark to market" - at the Government defined value?

28 At this rate they could have paid off everyone's mrotgages and given you some spending money along the way.

29 The only way that I see this being a good investment for the private sector is if they essentially give these assets away OR the Feds guarantee a minimum return/value for the assets.

This is the Bill Gross plan, aka "save the Bonds".  It's 20-80 risk share.  Private equity is the 20.  Uncle Sam is the 80.  Uncle Sam is also guaranteeing their 80.

30 We got in trouble because we created a credit bubble where the government guaranteed that liabilities would actually be assets.  Now we are going to fix it by guaranteeing that more liabilities will be assets.

Okay, thanks for confirming that this is what the plan is.  That's how I read it at least but figured that this was so stupid I must have missed something obvious. 

31 According to Wikipedia, total outstanding residential mortgages in the US total $10.6 trillion. If the average house is under water 20%, for ~$2T, the gov't could have just paid down everyone's mortgage 20%.

32 ok, so if this plan is just calling liabilities assets, then what will happen 1 mo, 6 mos or 1 year down the road?  do i get back in the stock market?

33 Right on cue.

http://is.gd/oy6z
PIMCO(Bill Gross and pals) to participate in new TALF plan.

34 This is stupid. All he did was recycle Paulsen shit on TARP. This is exactly what we were told TARP was for.

They have a bunch of bags. For years people passed them around because they  had a nice smell. Well, somebody finally took a look in and realized that despite the smell everyone loves there is shit in the bag.

Now they want to close the bag and pass it on and pretend they never saw the shit.
Well, everybody knows they are shit. It's doesn't matter if it's certain you won't lose everything because it will eventually become manure some day which can be sold.
Right now it's shit and nobody wants shit.

35 the S&P is coming up on resistance around 800 ... will go lower from here is my best guess ... even though the plan may bail out banks a little.  But who knows, they are committed to re-inflating the bubble, it seems.

I'm betting Barry has his family and friends network that get all these surprise announcements ahead of time ... lots of chances to front run for big bucks ...

36 How are these accounted for under "mark to market" - at the Government defined value?

They're not. That's the problem. Under mark-to-market, a company has to value an asset on what it could fetch on the market at the current time...but these securities are, for all intents and purposes, worth zero under the mark-to-market rules. Well, obviously they're not worth zero dollars, even in the worst-case, but banks are not about to get rid of them at fire-sale prices because they think that these securities are worth a lot more than they will fetch on the market right now.

That's the Mexican standoff that's causing the problem. The holders of these securities believe that a fair valuation is far higher than what mark-to-market dictates, yet the government regulations essentially are forcing them to sell at a huge loss (or at least take the hit on their balance sheets).

The problem with a government asset-buy is simply this -- either the government (meaning us, as taxpayers) pay too much for these securities, which unfairly enriches the holders of the securities; or we force the holders of the securities to sell at a loss, which unfairly punishes the investors. And the essential problem -- that of "fairly" pricing the securities -- still remains. All the government is proposing to do is to "nationalize" any losses incurred by buying these securities while at the same time leaving the profits private. This is a completely upside-down warping of the market, and will mostly likely leave taxpayers holding the bag. (It will also layer overhead and opportunity costs on top of the actual purchase, simply due to government inefficiency.)

37 I just watched the video of O on 60 minutes. I found it to be very disturbing. He is literally laughing at these questions with a "gotcha" type of look on his face. Has anyone noticed this?? It really is as though he is punch drunk as Kroft says. This was a weird clip.

38 "31 According to Wikipedia, total outstanding residential mortgages in the US total $10.6 trillion. If the average house is under water 20%, for ~$2T, the gov't could have just paid down everyone's mortgage 20%.

Posted by: gm at March 23, 2009 09:42 AM (aXpYP)"

wonder if they oculd have saved a lot of people from foreclosure?

39 Someone please fix my confusion here...

Back when TARP was first suggested and then rammed through, the implication was that 'toxic assets' were the entire problem, and that a Really Big Number® of dollars (oh, say... $750B for starters) was needed to cover those assets to free up credit.

The freeing up credit part never really happened, because the first round of TARP funds was distributed indiscriminately to sound and unsound financial institutions alike. And most of those just used the money to balance their books, not to loan money to entities that contribute to economic growth. Banks are still shy the deposits they need to actually start lending on a scale needed to get the economy growing again (or were, last I read about it).

Now we're being told that only $75B or $100B will do it for toxic asset recovery? So ... was the TARP adventure merely a ruse to partially nationalize the banking industry?

40

Yes, this is simply Tarp II that they say they will finance from funds from Tarp I. Seeing as how there were 350 billion left in those funds when OBambi took over and he has likely spent a lot on other things that means that the original argument for 700 billion was a lie. This plan depends on what they are calling the �toxic assets�. This is where the American people should be screaming mad. Not at AIG getting a retention bonus to keep them from quitting, but for the fact that we are spending trillions of dollars and NOBODY, including the media, has yet to give them an explanation of this mess. Yes, Fox tried to give a 100 mile elevation of how we got hear but that was back BEFORE the election and it got swallowed up by politics.

 

As I understand what the �toxic assets� are they are paper bonds which are nothing more than a mixture of high and low risk mortgages that were sold to investment banks and brokerage houses. Included in those mortgages as low risk are those that were insured by AIG.  The key to how toxic these bundled mortgage investments are is what percentage of these loans were made under the high risk CRA conditions. These are the no money down, variable interest rate, sometimes interest only loans made to people who have low credit ratings and low income.

 

From what I had read a year ago the default rate on these loans was 50% and even after government bailout and reduction of the interest rates the failure rate is STILL as high as 30%.  The value of a mortgage that has already defaulted is ZERO. If a loan of $200,000 was made for that mortgage in a normal neighborhood that experienced a 25% drop in value then that house is maybe worth 150K. The only problem is what we are finding is that in the neighborhoods where the CRA advocates wanted these loans the houses can not be sold for any price. People are buying properties for 100 dollars in Detroit now.  What that means is that the collateral for these bad loans are worth essentially zero in a lot cases and nobody has a good mechanism for determining what those cases are.

 

What it is going to take is somebody who is VERY rich (still) taking one of these �government loans� and then buying a block of these �toxic assets�; let�s say 10 million dollars worth and spending say 5 million in separating the zero from the worth something. When the properties start selling again their value will be determined.  That will be a long process before the general market will recognize the worth ratios.

 

And finally; if these include the �credit Default Swaps� which were nothing more than insurance on bad paper then all that is out the window. Those are said to be upwards of 50 to 75 trillion dollars and there is no bailout for them.

41 So ... was the TARP adventure merely a ruse to partially nationalize the banking industry?

Call it a match donation.  Sovereign Wealth Funds dump a few billion into western banks trying to prop them up.  It's not enough.  The banks are still going to fail.  Paulson steps in and makes up an argument knowing full well the ends are all he cares about.  Pump capital into the banks and start manning the sails at AIG as they cover all their bad bets insuring the credit default swaps western banks were using to prop themselves up.

They're reinflating the bubble for sure.  They're trying to stem against deflation.  They need a bunch of true believers to make this work.  They're may not be enough of them.

42 All I know is that there is nothing Wall St. loves, despite their protests to the contrary, like Free Money!!11!.

What's another $1e12 amongst friends?

43 So ... was the TARP adventure merely a ruse to partially nationalize the banking industry?

No. At least, I don't think so. It was just people proceeding from false assumptions. Everyone thought that the problem was frozen credit markets, and that the credit markets were frozen because of the banks' "toxic assets" which prevented liquidity. In fact, this may indeed have been the problem when Merrill Lynch and Lehman got into trouble early last summer, but when Lehman collapsed the problem shifted.

Lehman's collapse exposed a far larger problem in the financial industry: the failure to price risk appropriately. Lots of banks and brokerages made huge bets on these securitized mortgages, but tried to "lay off" their risk by buying insurace from firms like AIG. It was thought that the risk of default on these AAA-rated securities was very low, so the insurers sold huge amounts of these instruments -- it was pure profit with no seeming downside, so why not? However, when the securities collapsed and the hedges had to be covered, everyone found that the exposure was massive: hundreds of billions and perhaps trillions of dollars. No bank or brokerage could take that kind of hit and survive.

So did the government "cause" the collapse by letting Lehman fail? Was it a failure of regulation? Of oversight? Failure to enforce existing securities laws? All of the above, and more besides. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Many of the financial firms involved in this debacle are simply insolvent.

44 Why would you try and reinflate a bubble?  Bubbles eventually pop.

45

You know, when McCain had this hare-brained scheme to use federal money to pay off every bad mortgage in America, I thought he was completely nuts (and was pissed off that he would reward the jackasses who won't pay their bills, while I pay mine on time every month).  In hindsight, he doesn't look as crazy as I thought he was.  The total bill to pay off all the defaulted U.S. home mortgages would probably be less (McCain said it would be when he threw the idea out there ... I think at the time there only about 2% of U.S. homes in foreclosure).  I'm thinking now that if there were no mortgages in the crapper, then the ten thousand million zillion ways these mortgages were sold, bet on, bet against and securitized wouldn't be in the crapper.

Of course if the schmucks in California, Florida, Arizona and Nevada had refused to pay the ridiculous asking prices for houses, then prices wouldn't have skyrocketed, exotic no down payment and ARM loans wouldn't have been invented, and I'd be retiring in 5 years.  Thanks a lot, you schmucks!

46 You know, the government might have an easier time getting private money into the plan if it hadn't spent the last week demonizing the people with the money to participate and passing 90% retroactive taxes on unpopular groups. Just saying.

Madness, obviously this will work out fine.  I mean, all these investors are doing is pumping desperately needed money into the banking system, with the goal of making a profit due to the economic downturn.

Populist frenzy won't turn on people profiting in the market due to the suffering of others, so their profits will be... wait, there's an angry mob forming, the signs seem to say something about no profits based on suffering.  Legislators seem to be following the mob (as always).

Whoops, maybe populist driven taxation stripping profits away from target groups WAS a bad plan... who knew?

47 It's as obvious as the nose on your face.

Slappy McTrickleUp & Associates LLC. are counting on the Banks to be as unscrupulous as the mortgage industry was... To be as unscrupulous as Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and Maxine Waters.

I mean, after all, what could possibly go wrong?... And, even if it does, they can always scapegoat the rich.

win/win

48 Given how erratic the Administration's been acting, the government money is potentially more toxic than the underlying troubled assets.  I might take some of their dough to buy up some inverse ETFs or something (basically betting short that the assets will decline from their original value), but only because I'm pretty sure the plan is going to fail.  Even then, you've got to set your own goals and cut out on your schedule rather than Timmah's.

All things considered, I'd rather stay liquid and wait for the interest rate run up that's got to follow this much debt, and then stick cash in CDs and other simple instruments that tack to the prime like back in the good old Carter years.

Yikes.

49 #46, I read that in some places a house would come on the market and a hundred people would see the house that day and they would have multiple bids, one higher than the next.  Apaprently, after you lost a couple of houses you would then learn from this and bid higher until you got a house.  People actually say you would see the same people looking at each house and you would know who bought the house cause they would drop out of the traveling cavalcade.

50 I hope that some moron can enlighten my ignorance on a point that I have never understood. To wit:  Since loans are frequently paid off early, through sale or what not, how was the value of these bundled loans and the subsequent derivatives effected?  How was the ball of yarn intended to be unwound? 

I would imagine that someone has to be able to track an individual mortgage into whatever trache it was placed so that the value of the bond could be determined, and yet, all I hear is how impossible it is to separate the performing mortgages from the defaults.

51 #49

That's one of the most ridiculous pricing schemes I've ever heard of.  Let me guess, they were going to watch TLC or ABC for a couple weeks, put in $2k worth of granite countertops, some track lighting, repaint it, and then "flip it" for $30k more then they bought it for.

52 No, no.  #14, you are not talking out your arse.  You are dead on.

Anyone with the fiduciary responsibility of overseeing group investments would indeed, IMHO be violating that duty if they invested in these funds. 

53 I think it's too late. The Democrats have already given hundreds of billions to liberal interest groups that will be recycled into campaign cash, ensuring they will keep office for the foreseeable future. I think it's time to go Galt.

54 "52,No, no.  #14, you are not talking out your arse.  You are dead on.

Anyone with the fiduciary responsibility of overseeing group investments would indeed, IMHO be violating that duty if they invested in these funds. 

Posted by: Derak at March 23, 2009 10:09 AM (Y0qoQ)"

So, does this mean pension funds are in or out?

55 Toby,
I think the interest is what determines the value normally. No one ever sees the principle at risk. So, ones that were to secure were the lowest paying because they were likely to have alot paid off early and so less profit.
The problem now is they have not only lost the interest but principle too.
That's just not something they factor one normally.

56 'Toxic Assets', huh?

In my day we called them 'Liabilities'.

No, they were always assets.  When a lending institution talsk about assets, they are the cah they have on hand plus the loans they have out.  Their liabilities are what they owe; in a bank's or credit union's case, these are commonly known as deposits.

57 So, does this mean pension funds are in or out?

They'll follow PIMCO.

58 CNBC has Session on and he is livid.  I so think he thinks he is in an alternate reality because no one around him is seeing the pitfalls he is seeing.

59 Timmahhhh!!!

60 I think the interest is what determines the value normally. ...

I'm sorry Rocks, I can't follow your explanation.  Can you dumb it down a bit more?  Maybe with analogies.

Here's how I have pictured this thing (and probably the root of my problem):  I'm a bank or other mortgage broker and I've got a buyer seeking a loan.  I don't want the loan on my books but just want the fee for servicing so I gather up the loans and and sell them to some one.  The entity that bought them wants more money to buy more loans so they sell the rights to the interest as a bond backed by the mortgage while expecting to profit a bit off the skim.  Some of the loans are paying a higher return due to risk while some are safer but pay less.  By mixing them, the bondseller tried to even out the return and where that wasn't doable, purchased insurance for the bond.

Now when a loan is paid off, the actual mortgage holder gets a load of cash.  What did he do with it?

61 "So maybe it's time to make peace with the Mob--the Wall Street Mob, and let them have their bonuses, and let them take jobs in the Treasury Department to help get us out of this mess. And since we're talking about the Mob here, consider the advice of Don Corleone himself on how to survive during treacherous times: Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer."  http://tinyurl.com/dzvqxe
That Charlie is such a funny guy.

62 CNBC talking CZAR again.

63 The markets are up?  Well, if my septic system was broken beyond repair and somebody offered me $100 for a pile of shit floating my toilet bowl, I'd be happy too.  The problem is nature will call in another 12 hours.

64 Monty - Thanks for the explanations, it clears up a lot for me. 

So, does this mean pension funds are in or out?

In theory, the pension funds should be out since these are such risky investments.  The reality is going to be that many funds are going to jump into this.  Then those funds are going to perform horridly and all hell will break loose.  This is simply going to add fuel to the massive fire that is the un and under funded public pension disaster.  IIRC, that's what pushed Orange County into bankruptcy, the investments for the pension funds went tits up and then Orange County had fixed liabilities but no assets to pay them.

Annnnd now I'm depressing myself thinking about that dog's breakfast.  I do think lunch will be a nutritious chocolate milkshake. 

65 I'm sorry, but the only solution is the one no one will suggest, or implement.

The problem was the securitization of the mortgages. The mortgages were simply what, in the business, were always thought of as crappy mortgages. That a bunch were made would not have mattered if we had let the market run on its own, and let banks and mortgage lenders go bankrupt as a result of their idiocy. Someone would have bought their assets for pennies on the dollar and life would have gone on.

Once the detached suckers, greedheads and gamblers big boys bought into securitization, though, the entire dynamic changed. We need to change it back to the way it was.

The tranches need to be torn apart. Individual mortgages need to be bought and sold. Grab bags of unknown value and risk were always a stupid idea, of the type only a highly-educated brain can conceive. No auto garage owner would buy a "tranche" of 10 vehicles, sight unseen. Yet the financial whizzes on Wall Street did basically that, all the time.

Only when, under government regulation, a system allowing individual mortgages to be bought and sold (a national database, where lenders can search and mortgage holders can see their own record, but no one else's) is established, will we (slowly) recover from this mess. Individual mortgages can be bought and renegotiated so that the lender makes a profit and the mortgage payer can make payments - and actually pay off the loan. This won't prevent all foreclosures, but it will prevent many, and that is all we can do, I'm afraid.

Some banks, lenders and insurance companies will go bankrupt. Fine; let them. They lost at a game they should never have entered. Their assets will be bought by others, and new financial institutions will replace them. This will be better in the long run - and it will be a long run, with lots of pain to spread around - and certainly will cost the taxpayer trillions less than Obama's harebrained schemes.

66

Alexthechick

 

I am not sure what you are talking about when you say �Pension Funds�. I have always been under the impression that these funds were like most large employee 401K funds. In those funds you had three or four different choices of stock funds or company stock to chose from. Some even allowed you to invest in government treasury bonds.

 

Any one fund will do good or bad based on what kinds of investments the funds make. My 401K plan, if I elected to not take company stock, had three levels of risk which you could balance your investments between.  The theory was that the further away from retirement you were the riskier the fund you invested in, and therefore overall the more return you would get.

 

If you invested your retirement in a lot of these derivatives which were supposed to be fairly safe if they were insured. The problem is that derivatives have shown themselves to be highly risky in the past (Orange County).

 

My 401K is invested 100% in utility stock and it did not do too bad compared to what my younger brothers did which was scattered around into various other stock mixtures. Mine dropped 25%, his dropped 50%.  The key thing for him is that he is not close to retirement while I am already retired. I am currently living off of a mixture of company retirement (fixed), my 401K dividends which are dependent on overall worth (long story), and other in-hand stock dividends that I have.  Since my 401K dividends will take a 25% drop I expect to take a healthy pay cut during the next quarter payout.

 

Overall, if the USA does not collapse and we recover all of these losses will be nil if recovery occurs before you sell the stocks. My brother prays that this occurs before he retires and that should be what most people pray for. If you are already retired like me you should be praying for the Bambi to quit with the massive spending and wholesale printing of money thing because this will cause hyperinflation.

 

If you are on a fixed income hyperinflation is bad, bad, bad.

67

That a bunch were made would not have mattered if we had let the market run on its own, and let banks and mortgage lenders go bankrupt as a result of their idiocy.

 

This neglects the fact that the government forced them to make those loans. We are STILL to this day seeing stories of banks being raked over the coals because they didn�t make enough of these CRA loans.

 

This is NOT a result of greed of the banks, it is the result of government interference in the mortgage industry.

68 NEPA, what you say is plausible, but why would this work when, say discounting the bundled mortages by, say, 80%, will not?  Is it because the properties are in a multitude of locations?  I just don't get what magically happens under your proposal....

69

Bambi is on there now and he is STILL talking about �keeping people in their homes� meaning the CRA debacle is still high on their list of keep on doing it. That is the difference between a big government Democrap-Communist and a private citizen. To the big government communist so what if it fails, you just need to keep trying until either you are the nation or dead.

70 or = are

71 Now when a loan is paid off, the actual mortgage holder gets a load of cash.  What did he do with it?

Buys more mortgages, it's not a profit he is just receiving the money back that was loaned. The interest is the profits and that is what usually determines the value because everyone expects to get the principle back.

As long as home prices don't fall, generally, the principle is never at risk, just the profits. 

Now the principle, or a portion of it, has been lost. It offsets any profit if the house must be sold in foreclosure. Even if the mortgagee has been paying interest for 2 years it won't cover a 30% loss of the principle.
That is why these assets are so toxic. How much of the profit has been lost?
Will the mortgagee keep paying the interest till the value of the principal has been recovered? If not then you haven't just lost interest but also the principle.

This extreme risk was always true of the sub prime garbage. But the risk was seen mostly in paying a lot for the bond and not getting much profit. Not as a risk to the actual principal. No one ever  thought such interest would be paid for the full term of the loan and in most cases hardly even a few years. Either the people would sell or refinance. In mixing these in with traditional mortgages the risk was supposed to be spread but in a massive down market the risk can't be spread far enough. It's taking everything down with it.

The worst part of this was the mixing, but that was the only thing which made sub-prime mortgages possible. Normally they would be mixed with others of similar risk and so the risk was accurately reflected in the bond. That stopped and was a very bad move, even with insurance.

72 Has anyone actually been able to find the plan itself?

73

LOL, CNBC gurus are now saying that the �problem� hasn�t been the lack of buyers for the toxic assets, but the fact that the banks were not willing to sell them at the prices being offered. One guy used the example the banks didn�t want to sell for 50 cent on the dollar and this plan will allow them to sell for 60 cent on the dollar because of a low interest loan to the buyer.

74 Re pension funds:

The 401(k) (and 403(b)) funds are not the same as traditional pension funds. First, traditional pension funds tended to be very conservative, and invested primarily in fixed-income, fixed-benefit instruments (money markets, muni bonds, stuff like that). The point being that it was better to get a low-risk 5% return year after year than get potentially higher returns but with much higher risk.  401(k) funds, on the other hand, are mostly invested in the stock market via mutual funds (which is why most of them are in the crapper right now).

The problem with defined-benefit pension plans is that someone has to bear the downside risk (and there always is one), and this is generally the entity offering the plan -- the company, union, or government. When markets are up, this is no problem. The pension plan can be "fully funded" with a much smaller percentage value of a company's asset because the return rate of the investments is much higher. But in lean times, the pensions must be allocated a much higher percentage to offset losses in the underlying investments -- these losses cannot be passed on to the beneficiary because they are "defined benefit" by law. (Unless the entity goes broke, in which case the Feds take over the pension and work out some reduced benefit to the beneficiary.)

401(k) plans have more "flex" in that, over time, the risk evens out. It's no help to the people who have to retire in the teeth of a downturn, but for most folks, a 401(k) or similar will appreciate quite well -- better than a defined-benefit plan in most scenarios. And it's tax-deferred, which gives you a real-world benefit right now rather than at some point in the future. But you bear all the short-term risks rather than some other entity. It's a trade-off.

75 Is it just me, or does Obama's new plan sound very similar to McCain's sept 08 plan re the MFI Trust?  Loans instead of purchases, support to stabilize firms, use of private partnership to buy "legacy assets" up, increased regs to deal with risky practices, even the various supervising agencies are the same....one can only hope that obama can manage to not completely politicize the process and hence fuck it up

McCain MFI Trust:

Here are details from the McCain campaign about the formation of a Mortgage and Financial Institutions Trust (MFI), which the campaign called �a vital element in managing the current financial crisis�:

The Purpose Of The Mortgage And Financial Institutions Trust (MFI):
The MFI Is An Early Intervention Mechanism That Will Help Financial Institutions Avoid Bankruptcy And Expensive Bailouts While Protecting Their Customers. The MFI will minimize the use of taxpayer money by having an orderly process to address the market crisis. Working with the private sector and regulators, the MFI will help identify troubled institutions and take action to strengthen them before they become insolvent.
The MFI Will Provide Troubled Institutions With An Orderly Process To Identify Bad Loans, Provide Funding And Eventually Sell Them At A Profit. This will get the Treasury and other financial regulators in a proactive position instead of reacting to one troubled institution after another.
The Structure Of The Mortgage And Financial Institutions Trust (MFI):
The MFI Will Be Part Of The U.S. Department Of The Treasury. The MFI will be managed by a board of directors consisting of at least the Secretary of the Treasury, Federal Reserve Chairman, Chairman of the FDIC and two public members. The Secretary of the Treasury will be Chairman of the Board. Under the MFI process:
� Troubled institutions will voluntarily come to the MFI.
� The MFI will provide liquidity loans at reasonable interest rates. The MFI will receive warrants for controlling interest in troubled institutions.
� Troubled financial institutions that enter the MFI will keep operating as private companies with the help of the MFI.
� The MFI will supervise the sale of loan assets at market prices and purchase them as necessary.
� The MFI will eventually, and at its discretion, sell the loans to the private sector.
� The MFI will have a predetermined tenure during which to dispose of the loans.
� The MFI will return all profits to the U.S. Department of the Treasury and taxpayers.

76 Buys more mortgages, it's not a profit he is just receiving the money back that was loaned.

I can't see that since the mortgage was pledged as backing/colateral for the bond when it was purchased.  That would mean that the mortgage holder has both the mortgage money and the money paid for the bond.

This has got me thinking though.  Is the problem that the issuer of the bond can't make the dividend payment?  As long as the bond is paying the contracted amount it would seem that nothing is defaulted that would require the insurer to pay off.

Am I seeming that correctly?

77 toby - some of the mbs bundling agreements have provisions about liquidation and default when too high a percentage of the bundled mortgages have foreclosed/stop performing and recoupment via foreclosure doesnt meet a certain percentage

78 Wow.  CNN just did a segment on "Mobilizing Team Obama" about the deployment of ground forces over the weekend to obtain Pledges to Obama's budget agenda....they actually played it somewhat straight, showing some surprise that "the elections not over"....

"all the makings of a campaign before the reelection campaign"

scary stuff tho in that they only showed one person refusing the "Pledge" and that was accompanied by commentary about "but not everyone agrees" and fawning praise of Obamaites going to people's doors and being able to "take the abuse"

concludes by saying the ground team will be employed regularly for all big policy pushes.

amazing - this truly is ground zero, the beginning of Obama's extra-governmental authority.

79 I can't see that since the mortgage was pledged as backing/colateral for the bond when it was purchased.  That would mean that the mortgage holder has both the mortgage money and the money paid for the bond.

I thought the money paid for the bond was against the interest only. If it was for both then the bond holder would get the money from the mortgage when it's paid off. The company who sold it is only servicing the mortgage, they aren't the holder.


Is the problem that the issuer of the bond can't make the dividend payment?  As long as the bond is paying the contracted amount it would seem that nothing is defaulted that would require the insurer to pay off.

That's true I would think but it's hard to pay the contracted amount when what you are receiving in mortgage payments has dropped drastically due to a large number of foreclosures and losses of principal.

80

I'm so confused about the stock market today. Is it like a big game of musical chairs on Wall Street right now and everyone is betting they'll still have a chair when the music stops?

Because I don't see how this latest round of money for nothing and chicks for free is going to end well.

81 Has anyone actually been able to find the plan itself?

Hold yer horses buddy!

Scanning post-it notes, crumpled cocktail napkins and lipstick smeared bits of kleenex into PDF format is a bitch!

Godammit!  Could someone please answer that fucking phone!

82 Here's the White Paper from Bloomberg:

March 23 (Bloomberg) -- The following is a reformatted version of a �White Paper� released today by the U.S. Treasury about its Public Private Investment Program.

Public-Private Investment Program $500 Billion to $1 Trillion Plan to Purchase Legacy Assets

Overview Troubled real estate-related assets, comprised of legacy loans and securities, are at the center of the problems currently impacting the U.S. financial system. The Financial Stability Plan, announced on February 10th, outlined a broad approach to address this issue via the formation of Public-Private Investment Funds (�PPIFs�). Today Treasury is announcing the Public-Private Investment Program under which it will make targeted investments in multiple PPIFs that will purchase legacy real estate-related assets. Addressing the problems created by legacy assets should help to improve the health of the financial institutions where they are held, leading to an increased flow of credit throughout the economy, and helping improve market functioning in the near-term. Investments made by Treasury under the Public-Private Investment Program are intended to complement the other components of the Financial Stability Plan that have been announced, including the Capital Assistance Program, the Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan, and the Consumer and Business Lending Initiative, continuing the Obama Administration�s efforts to improve the stability and functioning of the financial system.

The Legacy Asset Problem A variety of troubled legacy assets are currently congesting the U.S. financial system. An initial fundamental shock associated with the bursting of the housing bubble and deteriorating economic conditions generated losses for leveraged investors including banks. This shock was compounded by the fact that loan underwriting standards used by some originators had become far too lax and by the proliferation of structured credit products, some of which were illunderstood by some market participants. The resulting need to reduce risk triggered a wide-scale deleveraging in these markets and led to fire sales. As prices declined further, many traditional sources of capital exited these markets, causing declines in secondary market liquidity. As a result, we have been in a vicious cycle in which declining asset prices have triggered further deleveraging and reductions in market liquidity, which in turn have led to further price declines. While fundamentals have surely deteriorated over the past 18-24 months, there is evidence that current prices for some legacy assets embed substantial liquidity discounts. The discounts currently embedded in some legacy asset prices are a significant strain on the economic capital of U.S. financial institutions and have reduced their ability to engage in new credit formation. At the same time, the difficulty of obtaining private financing on reasonable terms to purchase these assets has limited the ability of investors to reduce these discounts. The lack of clarity about the value of these legacy assets has made it difficult for some financial institutions to raise new private capital. The Public-Private Investment Program is designed to draw new private capital into the market for these assets by providing government equity co-investment and attractive public financing. This program should facilitate price discovery and should help, over time, to reduce the

excessive liquidity discounts embedded in current legacy asset prices. This in turn should free up capital and allow U.S. financial institutions to engage in new credit formation. Furthermore, enhanced clarity about the value of legacy assets should increase investor confidence and enhance the ability of financial institutions to raise new capital from private investors. The primary areas of focus for the government�s troubled legacy asset programs are the residential and commercial mortgage sectors, including both whole loans and securitizations backed by loan portfolios. These troubled assets are held by all types of financial institutions, including those that predominantly hold them in the form of loans, such as banks, and those that predominantly hold securities, such as insurers, pension funds, mutual funds and individual retirement accounts. While the program may initially target real estate- related assets, it can evolve, based on market demand, to include other asset classes.

The Public-Private Investment Plan: A Comprehensive Solution A key principle of the chosen approach is to use private capital and private fund managers to help provide a market mechanism for valuing the troubled assets. By creating partnerships with private investors, this approach should serve to both protect the interests of taxpayers over the long-term and help restore liquidity and enable price discovery in the markets for troubled assets in the short-term.

The two key elements of the plan are: * Legacy Loans Program: a program to combine an FDIC guarantee of debt financing with equity capital from the private sector and the Treasury to support the purchase of troubled loans from insured depository institutions. * Legacy Securities Program: a program to combine financing from the Federal Reserve and Treasury through the Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility (�TALF�) with equity capital from the private sector and the Treasury to address the problem of troubled securities. The equity co-investment component of these programs has been designed to well align public and private investor interests in order to maximize the long-run value for U.S. taxpayers. Specifically, while the plan is designed to help reduce the liquidity discounts contained in legacy asset prices in the near-term, the most important way to protect taxpayers is to ensure that the government is not paying more for assets than their long-run value as determined by private investors. Since TARP funds will be invested alongside private capital on similar terms, this reduces the likelihood that taxpayers will be overpaying. At the same time, taxpayers will have the opportunity to participate in the asset�s upside along with private investors. Similarly, the debt financing components of these programs have been structured to protect taxpayer dollars and the FDIC�s Deposit Insurance Fund from credit losses to the greatest extent possible. Together, these two programs should help to restart markets for troubled assets, begin the process of repairing balance sheets, and eventually lead to increased lending in comparison with levels that would have occurred without this effort.

The Legacy Loans Program In order to help cleanse bank balance sheets of troubled legacy loans and reduce the overhang of uncertainty associated with these assets, the FDIC and Treasury are launching the Legacy Loans Program. This program will attract private capital to purchase eligible loan assets from participating banks through the provision of FDIC debt guarantees and Treasury equity coinvestment. A wide array of investors are expected to participate. The program will particularly encourage the participation of individuals, mutual funds, pension plans, insurance companies, and other long-term investors. The program is intended to boost private demand for distressed assets that are currently held by banks and facilitate market-priced sales of troubled assets. The FDIC will provide oversight for the formation, funding, and operation of a number of PPIFs that will purchase assets from banks. The Treasury and private investors will invest equity capital in Legacy Loans PPIFs and the FDIC will provide a guarantee for debt financing issued by the PPIFs to fund asset purchases. The FDIC�s guarantee will be collateralized by the purchased assets and the FDIC will receive a fee in return for its guarantee. The Treasury will manage its investment on behalf of taxpayers to ensure the public interest is protected. The Treasury intends to provide 50% of the equity capital for each PPIF, but private investors will retain control of asset management, subject to rigorous oversight from the FDIC. Institutions of all sizes will be eligible to sell assets under the Legacy Loans Program. To start the process, banks will identify to the FDIC the assets, typically a pool of loans, that they wish to sell. Assets eligible for purchase will be determined by the participating banking organizations, including the primary banking regulators, the FDIC, and the Treasury. In order to protect taxpayer dollars from credit losses, the FDIC will employ contractors to analyze the pools and will determine the level of debt to be issued by the PPIF that it is willing to guarantee. This will not exceed a 6-to-1 debt-to-equity ratio. An eligible pool of loans, with committed financing, will then be auctioned by the FDIC to qualified bidders. Private investors will bid for the opportunity to contribute 50% of the equity for the PPIF with the Treasury contributing the remainder. The winning bid for this equity stake together with the amount of debt the FDIC is willing to guarantee (based on a predetermined debt-to-equity ratio), will define the price offered to the selling bank. The bank would then decide whether to accept the offer price. Once the initial transaction has been completed, the private capital partners will control and manage the assets until final liquidation, subject to strict oversight from the FDIC. The FDIC will play an ongoing reporting, oversight and accounting role on behalf of the FDIC and Treasury. The exact requirements and structure of the Legacy Loans Program will be subject to notice and comment rulemaking.

Example If a bank has a pool of residential mortgages with $100 face value that they are seeking to divest, the bank would approach the FDIC. The FDIC would determine, according to the above process, that they would be willing to leverage the pool at a 6- to-1 debt-to-equity ratio. The pool would then be auctioned by the FDIC, with several private buyers submitting bids. The highest bid from the private sector - in this example, $84 - would define the total price paid by the private investors and the Treasury for the mortgages. Of this $84 purchase price, the Treasury and the private investors would split the $12 equity portion. The new PPIF would issue debt for the remaining $72 of the price and the debt would be guaranteed by the FDIC. This guarantee would be secured by the purchased assets. The private investor would then manage the servicing of the asset pool and the timing of its disposition on an ongoing basis - using asset managers approved and subject to oversight by the FDIC. Through transactions like this, the Legacy Loans Program is designed to use private sector pricing to cleanse banks� balance sheets of troubled assets and create a more healthy banking system.

The Legacy Securities Program The Legacy Securities Program consists of two related parts. This program is designed to draw private capital into the markets for legacy securities by providing matching equity capital under the Treasury�s Public-Private Investment Program and debt financing from the Federal Reserve and Treasury under the TALF. However, any private investor, even those who do not partner with Treasury under the Public-Private Investment Program, will also be able to access the TALF to purchase legacy securities. The goal is to restart the market for these legacy securities, which will allow banks and other financial institutions to free up economic capital and stimulate the extension of new credit. The resulting process of price discovery should also reduce the uncertainty surrounding financial institutions holding these securities, potentially enabling them to raise new private capital.

Expansion of TALF for Legacy Securities The Treasury and the Federal Reserve are creating a lending program that is targeted at the broken market for legacy securities tied to residential real estate, commercial real estate, and consumer credit. The intention is to incorporate this program into the previously announced TALF, which may total as much as $1 trillion. Through this expansion of the TALF, non- recourse loans will be made available to investors to fund purchases of legacy securitization assets. Eligible assets are expected to include certain non-agency residential mortgage- backed securities (�RMBS�) that were originally rated AAA, and outstanding and commercial mortgage-back securities (�CMBS�) and ABS that are rated AAA. Borrowers will need to meet certain eligibility criteria. Haircuts will be determined at a later date and will reflect the riskiness of the assets provided as collateral. Lending rates, minimum loan sizes, and loan durations have not yet been determined. These and other terms of the program will be informed by discussions with market participants. As with securitizations backed by new originations of consumer and business credit already included in the TALF, the provision of leverage through this program should give investors greater confidence to purchase these assets, thus increasing market liquidity.

Legacy Securities PPIFs In conjunction with these efforts, the Treasury is also announcing a program to partner with private fund managers to support the market for legacy securities. Under this program, private investment managers will have the opportunity to apply for qualification as a Fund Manager (�FM�). Applicants will be pre-qualified based upon criteria that are expected to include a demonstrable historical track record in the targeted asset classes, a minimum amount of assets under management in the targeted asset classes, and detailed structural proposals for the proposed Legacy Securities PPIF. Treasury expects to approve approximately 5 FMs and may consider adding more depending on the quality of applications received. Approved FMs will have a period of time to raise private capital to target the designated asset classes and will receive matching equity capital from Treasury. FMs will be required to submit a fundraising plan to include retail investors, if possible. Treasury equity capital will be invested on a fully side-by-side basis with these private investors in each PPIF. Furthermore, FMs will have the ability, to the extent their fund structures meet certain guidelines, to subscribe to Treasury for senior debt for the PPIFs in the amount of up to 50% of a fund�s total equity capital, and Treasury will consider requests for senior debt for the PPIFs in the amount of up to 100% of a fund�s total equity capital subject to further restrictions on asset level leverage, redemption rights, disposition priorities, and other factors Treasury deems relevant. This senior debt will have the same duration as the underlying fund and will be repaid on a pro-rata basis as principal repayments or disposition proceeds are realized by the PPIF. These senior loans will be structurally subordinated to any financing extended by the Federal Reserve to these PPIFs via the TALF. Treasury expects the PPIFs to initially target non-agency RMBS and CMBS originated prior to 2009 with a rating of �AAA� at origination.

Example Treasury will launch the application process for managers interested in the Legacy Securities Program. An interested FM would submit an application and be pre-qualified to raise private capital to participate in joint investment programs with Treasury. Treasury would agree to provide a one-for-one equity match for every dollar of private capital that the FM raises and provide fund-level leverage for the proposed PPIF. The FM would commence the sales process for the PPIF and raise $100 of private capital for the PPIF. Treasury would provide $100 of equity capital to be invested on side-by-side basis with private capital and would provide up to a $100 loan to the PPIF if the fund met certain guidelines. Treasury would also consider requests from the FM for an additional loan of up to $100 subject to further restrictions. As a result, the FM would have $300 (or, in some cases, up to $400) in total capital and would commence a purchase program for targeted securities. The FM would have full discretion in investment decisions, although the PPIFs will predominately follow a long-term buy and hold strategy. Depending on the amount of loans provided directly from Treasury, the PPIF would also be eligible to take advantage of the expanded TALF program for legacy securities when that program is operational.

Last Updated: March 23, 2009 08:45 EDT

83

Call it what it is:  Nationalization with one degree of separation.

84 I am not sure what you are talking about when you say �Pension Funds�. I have always been under the impression that these funds were like most large employee 401K funds. In those funds you had three or four different choices of stock funds or company stock to chose from. Some even allowed you to invest in government treasury bonds.

Monty did a much better job at explaining than I will but when using pension funds I'm thinking of the defined benefit plans vs. the defined contribution plans.  There are differing levels of regulation regarding the funding and fiduciary requirements for defined benefit plans.  I'm deeply worried about what's going to happen when the Big 3 tank and the taxpayers are left on the hook for the UAW pensions.  That is going to get very ugly, very fast. 

85 And Anti-Harkonnen--damn--do a link next time.

86 Thank You, Anti-Harkonnen Freedom Fighter.

Now could you get that phone for me, please?

I'm serious dude, I really gotta take a leak and I mean like an hour ago.

Just five minutes, kay?

87 Media Alert: Senator Judd Gregg scheduled to appear on "Happy Hour" on Fox Business News today at 5PM EST.  Co-host Cody Willard looking for suggestions.  Help him out.

http://tinyurl.com/c24sow

88 alexthechick:

Check this link (PensionTsunami) for the real ugliness of defined-benefit pensions. Unsurprisingly, the biggest hidden disaster-in-waiting is the public sector pension plans. When that bubble goes pop, it's going to make this thing look like a wet firecracker.

Defined-benefit pensions are really a leftover of the New Deal era, where corporations were expected to be a paternal guarantor of benefits from the first day of work to the grave. In return for thirty years of labor, the company agreed to "take care" of an employee: health, annuity after retirement, the whole nine yards. This seemed both reasonable and prudent back when people only lived to 70 years of age and American businesses raked in huge profits year after year in the postwar boom years.

But this model was predicated on very faulty assumptions. First, they did not anticipate the skyrocketing costs of retiree healthcare. These costs alone have brought some companies (like GM) to the brink of bankruptcy. And the fixed-benefit annuities have taken a beating in the market, but the benefits must still be paid. This means either bankruptcy (if a private business) or higher taxes (for the public sector). This is why public-sector pension plans are such a disaster: they cannot be abrogated by bankruptcy except in extreme cases. Every political entity from the city all the way up to the Federal government will simply raise taxes to cover the shortfall. But this only works up to a point: when the problem is big enough -- and it is in the public pension plans -- then even raising taxes is not enough, and...la deluge.

I'm betting that California and maybe Nevada actually go bankrupt this year or next, mostly due to looming pension obligations that cannot be covered from the general fund. What effect will that have in real terms? No one knows. It's really a political question, because public-sector unions like SEIU have a lot of pull at the state government level and will resist -- vociferously -- any reductions in benefits. But Joe Taxpayer is already pissed off at having to support people with cushy pension plans when he himself is barely scraping by, and I think that sooner or later the lid is going to blow off.

89

Hey man ... I got a plan for the toxic assets that I would like for everyone to critique. I mean - I'm certainly no economist but, then again neither is Obama or Timmy or anyone else who's in fucking charge. So I think I have at least as much credibility as any of them.

Why don�t they allow mutual fund companies to make up FUNDS made of toxic assets? Hear me out. Get a real hot shot fund manager and private folks like us throw some money into the fund. The manager's job is to buy toxics from the other banks and MAKE MONEY off the toxic assets - however he can. That may mean liquidating some, renegotiating others - it might take DECADES to turn a profit but ... ALL PROFITS MADE ARE TAX FREE!

Seriously - no limit on the amount of money one can make - no taxes at all! This will incentivise private investment - these could become a kind of a "retirement" fund - that's tax free! The tax free clause is the least we can do for anyone willing to take a risk like this - they ought to keep ALL the reward when it comes.

And I think it will come - these assets aren't worth ZERO. They can be turned for a profit - as long as Government agrees to stay the fuck out of how they're turned around. This means tenants can be thrown the fuck out or renegotiate - whatever the fund manager wants to do.

90 Hey, hello folks, great to be here in.....uh, ummm....washinciscoami bc!

Is that? It is!

Ladies and Gentlemen, let me introduce my battered half!

Ha-ha-ha-ha!

No, no, seriously spousal abuse is never funny.....except when you're whalin on their butt when a car antenna!

Aha-ha-ha-ha!

Am I right? Back me up here fellas!

No, no, I kid. Let me introduce the light of my life, my First Lady, the woman who puts the TOXIC ASS in toxic assets!

Ha-ha-ha!

Seriously, don't get in bed with this woman after a mexican dinner! Wheeeeewww!

You know that 3am phone call? It me callin the EPA! For a toxic spill cleanup!

HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!

91

"Because I don't see how this latest round of money for nothing and chicks for free is going to end well. "

Are you trying to imply that "that ain't workin'?"

92

tl;dr

Now let's vote!

93

Why don�t they allow mutual fund companies to make up FUNDS made of toxic assets?

Dennis Kneale floated a similar idea on CNBC a while back. Not sure who the author was, but they proposed creating ETFs to hold the assets.

94 Why don't they allow mutual fund companies to make up FUNDS made of toxic assets?

What's a mutual fund's interest in taking on a fund full of this shitty paper? Why would potential investors put their money into it? The essential problem is that the most "toxic" stuff is toxic for a reason. How would Moody's or Fitch rate these things? Obviously they're junk, so an "investment grade" rating is out the window; therefore, your chances of selling into major institutional investors is gone. That means individual investors -- and who's going to buy this shit except at exorbitant rates of interest to justify the risk?

I don't see it happening.

95 Got to go. Think I'll hit the porch rocking chair.

96

I want my...
I want my...
I want my economy...

Bumm-BOW, mow-mow-MOW, mow-mow-om-mow-wow-wow om-mow, bow-wow-wow om-mow-wow...

I shoulda learned to pay the governor,
I shoulda learned to play the system.
Man, lookatit, lookatit...stickin' in the camera, man!
Yeah Blago, he ain't dumb.

We got to win some Arab-nation lovin',
With native-language delivery!
We got to remove these Iranian sactions...
We got to make the mullahs happyyyyyyy....

97 I don't have any toxic assets but I'll take a trillion dollars off of the govt's hands if it just wants to shit money away.

98 Sorry to get Dire Straits stuck in your head, reason, but I like your updated lyrics!

99 Dealbreaker is sayign that Dimon got two new jets and is building the hangers to house them.  Game on?  "JPMorgan Goes There"  http://tinyurl.com/e88bk

100

One of the problems with this plan is that noone knows what these toxic assets are really worth

Take the assets back to 1990 prices and adjust for 19 years at 6% inflation and you will be closer to their "real" value than they are now.

101

We got to instill plebian outrage,
Custom taxes for AIG!
We got to move these inflation-makers,
Just ignore the Dow Industrieeeeees...

I just had to do one more chorus...  Maybe if I have a slow afternoon, I might work on lyrics to Why Worry...

102 I'm deeply worried about what's going to happen when the Big 3 tank and the taxpayers are left on the hook for the UAW pensions.  That is going to get very ugly, very fast.
Posted by: alexthechick at March 23, 2009 11:54 AM (SHHaV)

To paraphrase Chief Brody...we're going to need a bigger bottle of Val-U-Right.

103 The DJIA ends the day +497, up 6.84%

The traders have a lot more confidence in this plan than I do.

104

the market is in it's own upswing cycle which has nothing to do with this plan, this plan has already been floated folks, and it won't work. why?

it's based on the idea that these "assets" are worth something, they aren't and they will never be worth anything, these "assets" are defaulted home loans the vast majority of which will never be paid off, but which the owners of the loans used as corlateral/security (spelling, i know, sorry, on  a roll here) and sold them as such, the only value is in the house but the house is only worth a fraction of the liens on it, there is no way to make that money back it's gone.

this plan will not work.

 

is it still september? it feels like it 

 

brickwall, meet head... head, meet brickwall.

105

to add:

this is a temporary rise in the markets, as soon as ppl feel like they are close to making their money back from the market they will sell and sell hard

106

one more thing,

banks, i'm sure, do like this plan, who wouldn't like the Gov. to pay off your bad loans?

so the Gov. buys the bad loans, then what?

the gov. is left holding a loan which will never be paid, would you buy that loan back?

107 wedding dresses wedding dress wedding gowns bridesmaid dresses bridesmaid dress

108 托盘

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110 Players are always fighting in Runescape. It�s one of the reasons the game is so popular, being able to go to another world, attack monsters, and take their treasure . It�s adventure. It�s excitement. It�s fun. Especially through outstanding account.
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