1 No doubt.

2

OK, I'm with you now on not talking about it.

So why did you have to start this by talking about it? (Kidding)

3 copy that.

4 "Why are you guys so jazzed to do precisely what Obama wants you to do?"

What the hell are you talking about!?

YOU and MALOR brought it up.  We don't agree with what you want to say, so you get flamed.  A lot.

"Why are you making me post on topics that I shouldn't post about!?"

5

Well today I talked about Obama snubbing Britain, his fiscal irresponsability, Hillary being a buffoon in front of the Russians and Europeans, the plan to relax the embargo on Cuba, Obama freaking out the markets, and the Rush/Steele/Obama messes.

*looks at Ace's blog today*

So who is going along with Obama's conversation menu again?

6 It's pretty clear from Gibbs's "counter-productive" comment that he wants people to let it go and move on, because it was so ham-handed that it demonstrates exactly what these cockweasels are all about.  I want to call them on their shit. every. damned. time.

7 I mean, I'm shocked at how little posting DVDgate has inspired on this blog.  Seriously.

8 #4
Indeed.

...the average distressed voter is going to be turned off by one party's spokesman rooting against his family's prosperity, or sounding like he's doing so

And so the language is surrendered to the Inner Party.  Doubleplusgood!

Somewhere Jeff Goldstein is bending horseshoes into unicorn slippers.

9 Moron snarkiness level appears to be rising fast....

Obama is taking a hit on this re betrayal of "new politics" because he created the "distraction".  I think that should be the only focus - Obama's permanent campaign which values short term Dem popularity over actual governing - in other words, the exact opposite of his entire campaign theme.

10 YUP, pretty much everything Obama says for public consumption is a smokesecreen for the crap he is pulling off behind the curtain.
Move on indeed and let's yank that curtain aside.

11 The problem is that you guys (you and Malor) are taking a lot of zest of late in defending Patterico and his POV and not taking a lot of zest in ripping Mr. Overworked.

No wonder Rush is getting people here standing up for him.  Hoist the fucking black flag.

12 Can you imagine what the MSM would have done if a McCain SecState had presented the Russians with a warmed-over big red pushbutton gimmick reading "overcharge" in Cyrillic?  You can't make this stuff up.

13 Read my lips: I HOPE HE FAILS. He (Obama) is doing everything he can to ruin our country and we claim we know it. Not being appalled by that is being part of the problem. He's not a great orator; he's not a humanitarian; he's a fucking communist. Why are conservatives so afraid of that? Ace, you're a grand pussy. We need to take Obama and the Demon-crats on like they took on GWB. At least the truth will be on our side.

14 What, are you gay and named Sullivan?  Who asked you to defend Rush?  You chose to attack Rush again: "...whether I hope he fails is now core conservative doctrine.  It's not". 

If you think it is counter productive, don't do it. 

15 "This is fundamentally an unserious and unimportant issue."

I beg to differ. The issue is no longer about Limbaugh at all. It's now about how we, as conservatives, move forward in expressing our core beliefs. Expressing them to the rest of the nation and, most importantly, expressing them to our elected officials who just don't seem to get it (or maybe, to care) anymore.

This issue is, in fact, the most important issue that conservatives can be discussing right now.

Everything else follows this and everything that follows this will be effected by what we choose to do now.

The whole "I hope he fails" thing just put the question before the court as it were.

16 Take a look at what Patterico's has posted today. After seeing the 2006 poll he has posted, you will know: Democrats Have No Right To Be Snooty About Rush Not Wanting the President to Succeed http://preview.tinyurl.com/czrggp

17 Here is the link that we take you directly to Patterico's http://tinyurl.com/czrggp

18 Ace, I'm with you on the fact that Obama has us arguing amongst ourselves about Steele/Limbaugh, but only because Steele would not defend us when called Nazis. We simply cannot have another Bob Dole or John McCain or Orrin Hatch in this party any more. What has Steele gotten us into in the FIRST FOUR WEEKS of his leadership? These guys do nothing for the message. They're always trying to 'open dialogue' or 'reach across the aisle' or 'forge alliances' - which is doublespeak for playing right into the hands of the Left. This is exactly what Steele did - why was he talking to that idiot comedian in the first place? Why would the GOP leadership ever go to a Mainstream Media outlet to do ANYTHING? When are they going to learn? Why not spend a huge amount of time propping up Jindal and Palin and the strong-minded Rightwing members, instead of going back to the same tired country club and bringing these old problem makers in?
Finally, can anyone here agree that if you want to hurt the leftwing MSM, you HAVE to stop subscribing to their papers and magazines, watching their morning shows and clicking on their websites. Putting up a guy who immediately gets us into a mess with them that we have to spend the next several weeks digging out of is not the answer.

19 >>>The problem is that you guys (you and Malor) are taking a lot of zest of late in defending Patterico and his POV and not taking a lot of zest in ripping Mr. Overworked.

I'm defending Patterico for telling the truth the denialists don't want to hear.

Everyone wants to believe he's in the majority, for some reason or another.

When someone says something minor like "This may sell with us in the partisan minority, but it actually hurts us with the majority," it's somehow a betrayal.

Because apparently we all have to pretend that very unrepresentative people -- partisans listening to Rush or commenting on blogs -- are reflective of the majority.

I don't like this notion that we now have to all mouth obvious bunk and twaddle just to show support for team.

it wasn't a helpful comment -- What, I'm not allowed to say that now? I'm "undermining the cause" by saying it?

And I've been on Obama quite a bit. What are you talking about?

20 You know what "I HOPE HE FAILS" means?  Besides the specific thing in context.

It means "WE ARE NOT OBAMA".  When his fuckups pile sky-high, being the un-Obama will be the only good thing to be.

21 >>> The issue is no longer about Limbaugh at all. It's now about how we, as conservatives, move forward in expressing our core beliefs.

When did "I hope he fails" -- expressed PRECISELY in that fashion, with no suggestions for making it more diplomatic permitted -- become core conservative doctrine?

22 Three points:

1) I don't why you, ace, insist on interpreting Rush's comment in the least flattering light - the same light, btw, as presented Obama's goon squad and reenforced by the cocksucking media propagandists.

Rush has explained himself more than once and more than adequately on the matter.

2) Why do we have to shut up about it? How about a little political ju-jitsu instead? In other words, why don't we start asking why the president is engaging in a personal tiff with a talk show host when the whole economy is falling apart?

3)It doesn't matter what Limbaugh says or how he says it. It will be manipulated, dowdified, distorted, misrepresented and flat out lied about by these cocksuckers. They did it again this week by manufacturing more outrage over him commenting that the Democrats will name their health bill after Ted Kennedy.....when that's exactly what they've said in the past. But somehow when Rush says it, he's being vile and hurtful.

23 "I'm defending Patterico for telling the truth the denialists don't want to hear."

Macaca please.  You're the one claiming that sometimes you have to choke down your own self-righteous sense of Truth for comity and appearance.

24 Dude...this is like saying that radical Islamic hatred and recruiting has skyrocketed because of Iraq.

And while I'm sure that did serve to enflame the anger against the west, the fact of the matter is, had we not gone to Iraq, they would use another issue to hate us for.

Now the media is running with this ridiculous story to distract against the Obama gaffes.  Do you really believe that they'd actually cover the Obama gaffes were it not for the leftist spin on Rush's comments?

Of course not.

They would have found some other shiny toy to use as a diversion.

I heard what Rush said and I don't understand how anyone who listened to his statement in context would have any problem with it at all.  The left took a few words that worked for them entirely out of context and are using that spin to deflect from what's happening.  Were it not for this, it would have been something else.

As for Michael Steele, could we please for once not eat our own?  I've seen enough of Michael Steele over the years to be pretty impressed with him.  Yes, I am disappointed with his strategy at the moment...but rather than throwing him under the bus, how about we instead do our part to make our voices known about what we think he should do?

Do you all really think that if Steele left that the media wouldn't find something to rip the next one apart for too...or do some folks still live in the Land of Wishes, Hopes and Dreams and believe if we pick the right person, the media will wuv us and not spread vicious lies about us, our positions and our officials and represenatives?

25

The qestion of steele isnt the Rush problem. Its the problem of if he is being effective leader of the GOP.

There is no evidence of that.

Yes are bigger battles to fight. But we need leadership more than ever now.

26 Wow. Just wow. I've been hanging in different places because of this. I liked the "fuck you" attitude around here. Seems like it's going by the wayside.

Attitudes were like mine around here...now it's getting Allah like.

Guess I made my last "meetup".

27

Why would the GOP leadership ever go to a Mainstream Media outlet to do ANYTHING?

My frustration exactly, thought slightly O/T.

And I'm done with this.  Let's move on now.

28 >>> Who asked you to defend Rush? You chose to attack Rush again: "...whether I hope he fails is now core conservative doctrine. It's not".


Many of you did. When I (along with Patterico and Gabe) make the MINOR observation that this could have been phrased more diplomatically, we get yelled at for not defending Rush vigorously enough, and are informed Rush's off-the-cuff four-word statement was PERFECT and no possible imrovements to it exist.

That sounds a lot like demanding that everyone defend not just Rush himself, or his basic message, but every specific thing he says (down to the letter and punctuation) all the doo-dah day.

Patterico, formerly a good conservative, is now a bad one because he found Rush's phraseology a bit impolitic? I'm a bad conservative now too?

29 The theory of the unicorny executive.

30

Why are you guys so jazzed to do precisely what Obama wants you to do?

 

Seriously Ace, did you type tat with a straight face? I mean we can only comment on what you guy's obsess over  post.

31 Where does your appeasement lead?

Look how teensy-tiny this Michael Steele-Rush thing really is. Compare it to trillions of dollars in new gov't waste on top of a cratering global economy and a foreign policy of retreat.

There is no level of nicey-nice which would stop the media from coming up with some ridiculous distraction for Obama's fuckups at Presidential summer camp.

We should crank up the volume. Every politician needs to hope Obama fails.

32 Hmpf. Your world is coming apart around you and you people are arguing about semantics and about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

In many ways, the conservative blogosphere is worse than the MSM. At least they have a semi-coherent message.

link to references here:
http://tinyurl.com/cmzt92
http://blog.sexyswf.com/fall-of-the-american-empire-part-2/
http://www.endoftheamericancentury.blogspot.com/
http://tinyurl.com/9we7v5

The 'bibliography' is ten pages long...and growing.

The world as you know it is over.

...and all you do about it is spit in each other's eyes?

33 "You guys say you want to oppose everything Obama does -- how about starting by opposing the menu of conversation topics he's cooked up for you?"  ~ Ace


Bingo!

Let's stop letting the left set our agenda for us.  We need to be on the offensive set the tone and the debate...rather than being on the defensive, trying to deflect these diversionary tactics.  Just like the GWOT.  We should take the fight to the enemy, not sit back and hope for the best.

34 "I don't want to criticize rush for it. To the extent I'm forced to -- I say it's a remark which hurts us, which is why, get this, the media won't stop talking about it."

^^ The assumption here is that if Rush hadn't said anything - or apologized for what he did say - that all would be sunshine and roses with the media and they'd be talking about more important things.

Sorry - but that's a laughable assumption.

The problem is the media - it's not Rush.  If you want to get the least bit angry or frustrated with anyone - it should be exclusively with the media - who are the Democrats butt boys.

35 "Ill do as Ill decide and let it ride until Ive died
And only then shall I abide this tide
Of catchy little tunes
Of hip three minute ditties
I wanna bust all your balloons
I wanna burn all of your cities"

36 I don't want to fight on this issue, because I could not win even if I tried

Then quit posting on this issue.  It's your blog, and in addition to this post, you've got a post about HotAir/Patterico's take on the issue, a post about Frum vs. Levin on the issue, and a post about how Steele has been emasculated, which is more than merely tangential to this issue.

Gosh, how the hell would we get the idea that you didn't want to talk about it based on your posting today?

37 And you know what? I want him to fail because I hate his pussy uber liberal whitey hating ass.


And I hate fuckin' democrats.

38 Jesus, can we stay in one fucking thread? This is getting retarded.

39 Rush' statement was not hard to understand. Nobody misunderstood it.

Had Rush chosen your preferred way of saying it, whatever that is, the headlines would have still read "Rush wants Obama to Fail!", and they would still be right.

40 >>When did "I hope he fails" -- expressed PRECISELY in that fashion, with no suggestions for making it more diplomatic permitted -- become core conservative doctrine?

Actually, there is nothing ambiguous or undiplomatic about the statement when put in it's proper context. Rush puts all his transcripts online, probably just he can prove he was being taken out of context. If you read what he actually said, it is not only not toxic, it is nothing more than you, me and everyone here accept for the trolls say every damn day. His words were twisted and that pisses me off. If we drop it without correcting it we allow a person who speaks for a huge portion of the base to be portrayed as unserious haters. I'm not down with that.

Question. If I didn't want Obama to fail, wouldn't I have supported him and voted for him?

41 I say it's a remark which hurts us, which is why, get this, the media won't stop talking about it.

They won't stop talking about it because they want you to apologize and concede the ground. See also: race card

. Ace, I love you, man, but you and Patterico are dead wrong about this. The correct response to this is to look them square in the face and call them out for the liars they are.

What, you think that giving in this time is going to make them stop lying in the future? Do you think there's

anything

that Limbaugh could possibly say that they wouldn't distort and lie about?

Limbaugh's ratings have doubled. That's an extra 12 million people listening to non-MSM sources.

That's a bad thing why, exactly?

Notice that Blowbama's spin doctors are starting to try to walk this back. They wouldn't be doing that if they didn't know it was hurting them.

42 Talk about it, don't talk about it, I don't think it a whole lot of difference. Bottom line is we can piss and moan about Frum, Limbaugh, Steele, Patterico even Obama and his policies and gaffes till the cows come home and it's not going to effect anything in the near future.  We're in the weird point in time where conservetives, even Rush, can't do much of anything. If our side wants a little column/blog civil war over Rush, I don't see what it hurts. I'm not into it but if trips somebodies trigger, have at it.

43 36 I don't want to fight on this issue, because I could not win even if I tried

Then quit posting on this issue.

^^^  No ... he should discuss the issue - but what he should do is link up to all the youtubes out there that show prominent Democrats bashing Bush, making statements like "We've lost the war"; "We've Killed the Patriot Act"; "Our troops are Nazis"; "Petraus betrayed us".

And sprinkle in some Bush 911 Conspiracy theorists and ask if they are the leaders of the Democratic party.  Let's throw some Jerimiah Writght hate speech against whites out there and ask if he is.

The only way you win this is to flame out the other side - and let them know they've stepped into a smelly pile of shit.  Instead - no - we let MSM make the agenda and we dance to the tune.

Where's the goods ACE??

44 1) I don't why you, ace, insist on interpreting Rush's comment in the least flattering light...

I don't, exactly. I say that the 'least flattering light" is a perfectly fair interpretation -- because Rush spoke incautiously.

When I suggest he speak cautiously on sensitive stuff like that, I'm told I'm a liberal goon.

>>>Rush has explained himself more than once and more than adequately on the matter.

Ah, well if he's convinced a partisan conservative Republican blog-reader like yourself, that pretty much settles the matter.

PS, "explanations' never work. The soundbite plays and plays. You know this. Why are you playing dumb?


>>>2) Why do we have to shut up about it? How about a little political ju-jitsu instead? In other words, why don't we start asking why the president is engaging in a personal tiff with a talk show host when the whole economy is falling apart?

Um, to do that, we have to first demonstrate it is in fact a distraction by not being distracted by it.

People are making this point. I have myself.

>>>>3)It doesn't matter what Limbaugh says or how he says it.

Then why fight the simple observation "it could have been phrased better?"

You know, every single one of you has been told this by a friend or spouse at one point -- "I know what you mean, but you could have phrased that better."

YOU, I assume, did not take this as some horrible insult. You took it as... a very, very minor bit of criticism you probably agreed with.

But say this about Rush and it's the most HORRIBLE BETRAYAL imaginable.

45 Look Dude, Rush ain't your brother and he doesn't need some ewok trying to haul his ass around. You don't have to defend him.
There are only two governorships up this year. Everything else is settled until 2010. Right now Limbaugh, Hannity,Levin and the dextrosphere blogs are the only rays of light in a grim time. The MSM isn't going to pay any attention to any conservative if they don't have to.

46 "The only way you win this is to flame out the other side - and let them know they've stepped into a smelly pile of shit.  Instead - no - we let MSM make the agenda and we dance to the tune."

Fuckin' A.

47 >>>No ... he should discuss the issue - but what he should do is link up to all the youtubes out there that show prominent Democrats bashing Bush, making statements like "We've lost the war"; "We've Killed the Patriot Act"; "Our troops are Nazis"; "Petraus betrayed us".

Um... yeah, the trouble is, we'll be making contradictory points: It's awful that Democrats rooted for Bush and Petraeus to fail, but for some reason it's okay if Rush roots for Obama to fail.

That's fine for partisans -- we all kinda believe that, even if we find the contradiction troubling.

But most people -- even dumb voters, by which I mean "most voters" -- are going to sort of notice the Fair For Me But Not For Thee quality of it.

That's what annoys me about this the most -- we on the right have been calling the liberals out for EIGHT YEARS for rooting against American success, and now Limbaugh says something similar, and we're all expected to contort ourselves to the justify the gross hypocrisy just because Rush is one of our boys.

Well, he is one of our boys. He is important. Vital, even. And my inclination, generally, is to defend him.

But that's a general inclination, not a universal one.

I don't particularly want to criticize him, but I am astonished that when someone like Patterico offers some very light criticism suddenly he's out of the party or something.

I think that is... very, very bad.

48 Don't think about pink elephants.

49 Stop giving the fattest kind of shit what the media does or does not say. Conservatives will never stop the bias of the MSM (or at least, not any time soon), and we only seem like whiners every time we point this bias out. Further, we only strengthen the MSM in the same way the MSM is strenghtening Rush: by fomenting controversy, they create spectacle; by creating spectacle, they gain an audience. It's not news or opinion so much as it is a circus.

Rush is in no way to blame for how people take his words. Rush chooses his words carefully and says what he means (and means what he says). When people fret over how his words are "taken" by those not ideologically in the same page, they miss the simple point that Rush's enemies never intended to give him the benefit of the doubt. If it wasn't this, it would be something else. When other conservatives chide Rush for being too impolitic, too rude, too...whatever...they make themselves into cowards. You don't have to agree with Rush or how he says things (I often don't), but don't attack the man simply for speaking simply to his ideological foes.

Another very bad problem I see among conservatives right now is that we not "drive off" the moderates. Well, you all know how I feel about "moderates": many of them are simply cowards or congenital triangulators who operate not by creed or philosophy but by simple expedience. If we become a permanent minority by telling these people to take a walk, so be it: I'd rather be right than popular.

Conservatism means something. It's not just contra; it has things to say about fundamental issues like personal freedom, the value of life, and the human spirit. It is a welcoming creed, but there are limits to what it can contain. Remember: if a creed can mean anything then it means nothing. This is the root evil of "progressivism" in my view, and I do hope that conservatives do not fall prey to the same heresy.

(And I use the word "heresy" deliberately. Conservatism is not a religous belief, but it is a philosophy. Some ideological positions are so counter to the letter and spirit of conservatism that they must be considered heretical. It's a very appropriate word.)

50

Last Word ?

Then you fire another shot across the bow. We'll just agree to disagree Ace, but yes this has beome another Patterico, Frum, Ace, and Malor vs. Limbaugh and those who do not agree with Patterico, Frum, Ace, and Malor on Limbaugh thread.

 Fail.

51

As I said in comment 64 of the last topic...this should have backfired on the Dem's...still might.

Rush was ready to turn this into a net positive for conservatism, and was only obstructed by the fecklessness of squishy GOPers

52 "and now Limbaugh says something similar"

Oh, bullshit.  You're not even pretending to argue in good faith now.

Get over yourself, o scold of proper conservative behavior.

53

It's funny that this parallels some of the fights in any and all ideological movements in history;  what is more effective, true-blue and balls to the wall, or more delicacy and plodding to slowly get your ducks in a row, keeping your antagonists to a minimum? Stalin and Trotsky fell out over the very same question ('Socialism in one country - Stalin  vs. whole hog global revolution - Trotsky).

However, I do wonder if the Rush front could be dealt with from the top of the party, if we all had the guts to stand with it. Namely, essentially, announce, flat and and absolute..... THAT WE ARE THOUGH APOLOGIZING TO ANY BODY FOR BASICALLY ANY THING.

DONE. ANY QUESTIONS?

It's these lame-ass demands for apologies and retractions laid on us by Democrats that tie us up in knots. The minute we start making a case that an apology is not warranted, we have lost one half the battle. Then the only question is will it be a 50% (Rush was within his rights) or a 100% defeat (Rush was wrong and should retract it).

How about, "Hey, when we need your opinion of our friend, we'll be sure to come crawling to you and ask. Until then, feel free to yap all you want, you might even consider calling his show to do it, I know he'd love to hear from you... but other than that, kindly stuff a sock in it. We really honestly genuinely DO NOT CARE if you are offended, 'cause that schtick has gotten way old."

How about that, GOP? Ya got the balls to say it and meant it? Don't even bring up Reverend Wrights, et al, because that is playing their game. Wright can say whatever he wants, WE can say whatever we want about him..... everybody just stop the frikkin' whining and mewling for apologies!!

Apologies? Retractions?  Can we politely inform you in detail what you can do with your demands for apologies and retractions? You're offended? Get therapy and move along. Done.

Got the balls for it, gang? It's a winner.

54

So we're denialist now?  Well I guess it's an improvement over cultist.

Seriously Ace, just stop digging.  If you can't make an argument without sweeping indictments of people who disagree with you for simply disagreeing with you then you're better off not even trying.  Maybe you can get someone who can rationally defend whatever point it is you're trying to make without resorting to Kos Kid tactics.  Unfortunately, I don't see many commentors on your side and Frum, Allah, and Patterico are instantly disqualified, hmm.... At the very least take your own advice and stop fighting dumb (or act on the title of your post).

55 It doesn't matter which side of the Rush debate you are on, being in the debate to begin with is the problem. Conservatives and Republicans should be talking about what is going on with Chairman O and dems.

56 I think this whole situation is just stupid, and everyone who is taking part in the poo flinging is just making shit worse.

even the people, like you Ace, who just want this to end, are unintentionally flinging more poo, making more people fling even more at you, even though you just want it fucking over.

There's a lot of poo flinging going on.  I flung poo, and now it's a shitstorm among friends, and rush and steele flung poo, and now it's a shitstorm in the party.

There's even a poo flinging contest that might become a shitstorm among ASTRONOMERS!

Everyone should just stop flinging poo.

57

<i> Well, we have some really big fights here ahead of us and all people seem to have the passion for arguing about is whether "I hope he fails" is now core conservative doctrine. It's not. </i>

I suspect that Democrats live in a scorched earth, binary view of reality, as much as they denounced GWBush for his:"You're either with us or against us." You can play the nuanced diplomatic route, but I suspect  that they view "bipartisan" Republicans as people who vote for Dem bills with no input & evil Limbaugh Republicans as ones with the temerity to  disagree with Dems. If we don't talk about our ideological differences, what is there to talk about?

 

58 Ah, well if he's convinced a partisan conservative Republican blog-reader like yourself, that pretty much settles the matter.

The only way you can not understand "I hope his policies fail because they're bad for America is too be a complete retard.

I don't think the future of the conservative movement is best served by catering to the lowest possible denomination.

PS, "explanations' never work. The soundbite plays and plays. You know this. Why are you playing dumb?

Ahhhhhhh....why are YOU playing dumb. You've just identified the source of the problem - the media. So the answer is to be out there correcting them while attacking their dishonesty over and over and over.

Then why fight the simple observation "it could have been phrased better?"

Because the man is on the radio 3 hours a day. There's always something that "could have been phrased better" when you're up against an army of media propagandists who are happy to interpret everything you say in the least flattering light.

59 Seriously, time to move on!

60 Sorry, I have a firm rule: Never root against America, even if America happens to be run by a socialist asshole.

I EXPECT Obama to fail -- catastrophically. I WAS afraid that he would make the wrong moves but the economy would wind up perking up DESPITE his bad stewardship, and socialism would be credited.

I don't think that anymore -- I think 2012 is almost in the bag.

That's because I know think Obama is such a disaster he's going to plunge us into a DEPRESSION.

Now, am I ROOTING for a depression? Rooting for millions and millions of Americans to live in misery for five or six years?

No. And I would never ever want to say it. I don't even want to think it.

It's what I think now will happen but certainly not what I root for.

And yes, I am troubled that -- whatever Rush meant -- he could say something that could even be interpreted this way so glibly.

Sorry -- that's my position. Never, EVER root against the well-being of my fellow Americans for any reason whatsoever. Don't even allow yourself to THINK that way, even if sometimes that thought pops into your mind.

61 Intramural blog sports. Most people aren't even aware of the finer details of this affair and frankly they don't care.

62 Rush saying "I hope he [Obama] fails" does not equal "I hope America fails."  Anyone who believes otherwise is deliberately distorting.  Period.

This is my favorite blog.  I would guess it is quite influential in many ways.  I would hate for the Mencken quote at the top to be literally construed.  Maybe it should be removed for fear that some might take it out of context and conclude that Ace, and his commenters, wish to literally slash throats.

63 Man listen... if you wanted to stop talking about it you shouldn't have posted this ace

64 As quite a few people have commented before me . . . I am more than willing to stop talking about it.  I just keep seeing posts on it in places where I would expect to find bloggers moving on.

Just sayin'

65 As was mentioned earlier in this thread; Rush's numbers are way up. He is drawing people in, not turning them off.

66 How about we actually look at what Rush said instead of what the MSM claims he said.

>>>I'm not talking about search-and-destroy, but I've been listening to Barack Obama for a year-and-a-half. I know what his politics are. I know what his plans are, as he has stated them. I don't want them to succeed.

>>>If I wanted Obama to succeed, I'd be happy the Republicans have laid down. And I would be encouraging Republicans to lay down and support him. Look, what he's talking about is the absorption of as much of the private sector by the US government as possible, from the banking business, to the mortgage industry, the automobile business, to health care. I do not want the government in charge of all of these things. I don't want this to work. So I'm thinking of replying to the guy, "Okay, I'll send you a response, but I don't need 400 words, I need four: I hope he fails."

Please note, he was talking about failing to implement his plans not the man personally. Anybody have a problem with that? Are we going to rush to support the Arlen Specters of the world when they help him succeed?

67 >>>even the people, like you Ace, who just want this to end, are unintentionally flinging more poo, making more people fling even more at you, even though you just want it fucking over.

I am aware of this.

It's like quicksand.

If I could resort to psychology to explain this:

Many conservatives have had this thought and so were cheered when Rush said it -- "SOMEONE had to say it" and all that. His saying it made them feel less alone.

So they defend it -- it's important not to feel alone, and Rush helped them not feel alone.

But now on the other side -- those WITHIN the conservative movement who find fault with this statement now feel very alone indeed. And yes, the same feeling of "SOMEONE had to say it" that cause people to cheer Limbaugh now causes some of us to cheer Patterico. SOMEONE had to say that, too, we feel, and we respect Patterico's bravery in standing up to the majority (the majority within the minority, I mean) just the same as the Rush-defenders were happy he spoke for them.

68 Weak ace, by taking this position you allow our enemies to distort and lie with no argument or consequence . Which is like admitting that they speak the truth .

69 I just want to ass that I haven't been on the site for about 48 hours and when I come back the first post I see is this one which is immediately preceded by 3 posts from Ace and Gabe going on about the Rush/Cocktail Party Elitist-thing. So, please don't preach about how we need to move on when you're the one continuing to stoke the argument.

I really like AoSHQ. In fact, I come here first every day to browse the headlines and read your analysis, though I don't post a lot. Please don't turn this into a Hot Air replica where topics like these are posted in order to promote controversy, while the moderators simultaneously tell everyone how ridiculous that they won't let the topics die. It's insulting and is the reason why I stopped frequenting that site.

70

re: somebody upthread:"Limbaugh's ratings have doubled. That's an extra 12 million people listening to non-MSM sources.

That's a bad thing why, exactly?

Notice that Blowbama's spin doctors are starting to try to walk this back. They wouldn't be doing that if they didn't know it was hurting them."

 

Exactly! Using a football analogy, the Dems tried to run straight up the middle & we can knock them for a loss. Ace seems to offering the advice that since Dems want to play football, we should forfeit the game & play cricket, instead. just to spite them.

 

 

71 "Ace, I love you, man, but you and Patterico are dead wrong about this. The correct response to this is to look them square in the face and call them out for the liars they are."

Almost there, but I think you have to add another step:  look them square in the face and call them out for being liars AND THEN CHANGE THE SUBJECT TO  THE STUFF THAT OBAMA DOESN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT.

72 Sorry. First line should read: I just want to say. Just took a cat nap and am still groggy.

73 Um... yeah, the trouble is, we'll be making contradictory points: It's awful that Democrats rooted for Bush and Petraeus to fail, but for some reason it's okay if Rush roots for Obama to fail.


Whoa Ace.  Seriously?

You're equating Rush wanting Obama's socialist policies to fail with the left's labeling Petraeus a traitor and Bush a war criminal?  Really?

Just because the media takes conservatives out of context and the public will hear the skewed side of things we should...what...not speak up?  Because that's the only alternative.

Rush was perfectly clear for anyone listening to the context.  The left will always deliberately take what the right says out of context in order to use it as a weapon against us.  The only way to limit this is to stop talking.  And even then, they'd come up with a devastatingly negative spin for that too.

I'm defending Patterico for telling the truth the denialists don't want to hear.

Patterico...and you...are dead wrong on this issue.

And please...agree or disagree...the labeling of those who disagree with you is getting really tiresome.

74 I hope he fails.

It should be easy to get the point across. Rush made it by saying something like.."Would it be saying that I wished the economy would fail to say ' I wish Madoff fails?' while he was setting up his ponzi scheme? No. I wish he would have failed before people got taken for 50 billion dollars".

But I agree that its just a distractionary ploy by Fourth Reich.

75 "SOMEONE had to say that, too, we feel, and we respect Patterico's bravery in standing up to the majority (the majority within the minority, I mean) just the same as the Rush-defenders were happy he spoke for them."

Except Patterico broke the 11th commandment.

You know, the one the moderates love to hide behind the rest of the time.

76 When I (along with Patterico and Gabe) make the MINOR observation

You all aren't, and you all haven't. It's not a thing any of you have observed. It's something you've repeated, then retrospectively feigned to observe.

And you've all been goalpost-shifting, ever-more-douchelike douches about it -- in a way that you're not when you're right.

"Denialists?" Jesus Christ, Ace.

77 AND THEN CHANGE THE SUBJECT TO  THE STUFF THAT OBAMA DOESN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT.

Posted by: Kensington at March 08, 2009 05:17 PM (90mpl)

Right on . . . like the comments on the Telegraph article about how he's just too damn tired and overwhelmed to do the job.  There's some fuckin' red meat right there.

78 Unreal, you just don't get it. I totally agree that it is trivial and the debate is too much. The PROBLEM is, because it is trivial, Michael Steele should not have taken the bait and discussed it.

What he should have said is exactly what you did - Listen you jackass comedian that I shouldn't even be on TV with in the first place - I am not here to discuss Rush Limbaugh because the White House has cooked up some hair-brained scheme to distract the public from the meltdown economy by making an issue out of Rush Limbaugh.

End of story unless Hughley wanted to press the issue and come up with more substantive questions on the topic and then Steele could actually back up what Rush said by giving it context. But just agreeing with the guy AND calling Rush "ugly" and "incendiary" - unacceptable.

What we are really debating here is that Steele is simply not ready for primetime. We all know this is the Democrats playbook, and he played right along with them. You cannot do that.

Now if you are arguing that what Steele did was fine, you're wrong. Flat out wrong. And any discussion that couches Steele's abject failure in this case is excusing that failure, and that is just as wrong.

79 >>>Please note, he was talking about failing to implement his plans not the man personally.

I agree. And even if he was talking about Obama "personally," who gives a shit? I want Obama to fail "personally." I wish him nothing but misery, frankly.

The problem is that Obama cannot really fail without America going through a VERY tough patch. Limbaugh wasn't rooting for that tough patch, but it's hard for me to see how Obama can "Fail" without a long, deep recession (if not a depression).

The problem for me is that even if Rush didn't mean the latter -- I see them as inseparable. Or nearly so.

Yeah, I get what he means... I just wish he had phrased it so as to make sure he was clear he didn't hope AMERICA failed with Obama. Even though that seems to be a hard scenario to imagine.

When people ask me if I want Obama to fail (and they do), I say, honestly, I don't know what to "hope" for. On one hand -- of course I want him to fail. OF COURSE.

But on the other hand-- do I hope for the horrific economic decline that will be the proof of Obama's failure? No, I don't. I can't.

So what do I "hope" for? I have no idea. I guess I "hope" that the country doesn't fare THAT badly and reaizes that Obama's policies are worsening things.

But it's hard for me to say, cleanly, I *hope* the country plunges into the economic catastrophe that will be proof postive that Obama has failed.

80

Let's be honest here.  I agree with what Rush said interpreted to mean that 1) I hoped that Obama's socialist policies would fail to be enacted (too late), 2) I hope that they fail miserably (which I know they will) and I can't say I want the economy to do well despite what Obama has done.  I can't say it because I believe what Obama is doing is immoral and that feeling the full brunt of socialist policies now will hopefully open the publics eyes and save worse pain later.  Bad economics aside I think it's morally wrong to take money from one group of people and just give it to another in the interest of "fairness" or anything else.  For the record I'm not rich but I make enough money to actually pay income tax unlike about 40% of the country (not that it really matters). 

That is the truth of what I believe (and I think Rush as well).  I would not expect a prominent Republican politician to make that argument however.  Basically I would be against socialism/communism even if it worked because I think it's morally wrong. 

So, Is that wrong? 

81 Posted by: Wickedpinto at March 08, 2009 05:10 PM (O4b2e)

I'm trying to earn my black belt in the martial art of Hu Flung Shit.

82

62 Rush saying "I hope he [Obama] fails" does not equal "I hope America fails."  Anyone who believes otherwise is deliberately distorting.  Period.

Pretty much, I was sure when I listened to Rush, and not to the MSM, he never said he wants America to fail.  He wants Obama to fail in his attempt to cause America to fail.  I would agree though that Rush hasn't been defending his point as well as I would like but that's another argument.

When it comes to America, I certainly don't wish her to fail but reality is reality.  If we truly are an Obama-left country no amount of rooting for America will change the reality that she will fail.  The best we can do is prepare as well as we can for the consequences.

83 Look, if Rush had said (or if what he said could be reasonably so interpreted) was "I hope, because of Obama's policies, this country plunges into a great, calamitous, nasty depression, the likes of which we have not seen in generations," then Ace might have a point.  If Rush had rooted for the American people to experience pain because of the election of Obama; if he'd reasoned that maybe it was a good thing if the country got a good and long taste of liberalism/socialism, and ultimately choked on it, resulting in an illness but ultimate long-term recovery, I might be with you, Ace.  But that is not remotely what he said.  Not even close.  To conclude otherwise is to accept a distortion of what he said, what he meant.  That's what angers many and causes them to defend what he said.

84 Ace, you're shooting in the wrong direction again. The Enemy is thataway, where everyone else is shooting. Fix yourself.

Worry about your own corner, let Rush's 3rd Army worry about theirs.

85 "it's hard for me to see how Obama can "Fail" without a long, deep recession (if not a depression)"

Are you fucking kidding?

The only way we AVOID such a thing is for Barry to fail.  For Republicans to grow a spine and stop his socialist plans.

Don't be ridiculous.

86

Maybe it should be removed for fear that some might take it out of context and conclude that Ace, and his commenters, wish to literally slash throats.

 

I agree too messy, I prefer a more stand-offish method

87

The entire thread header is too oblique for me. I'm not certain what topics are proposed to be verboten. Are we never to criticize Obama because that will make us look like negative nancies who just want America to fail? I agree with Grover Norquist, Obama isn't Louis XIV & Obama doesn't represent the state. He's a politican who currently is in control of the executive branch of government. We still have a bill of rights that allows us to have free speech.

I don't care about Limbaugh, personally. I suspect the attack against him is part of a broad sweeping strategy by Obama to eventually establish the "fairness doctrine" & regulate speech.

 

88 Well at least Patterico is starting to understand

89 You know what would be cool? Less Rush as the face of conservatism to the average American* and more noted Jew Eric Cantor and Tom Coburn.

Why? Because Rush is about building a huge radio audience and conservative politicians are about actually winning elections.



*Note I say to the average American because Rush is important for the base but that is not the same as winning a majority of Americans. You may wish it weren't true but it is.

90 Sorry, Ace, but you and Patterico are just flat out wrong on this.

Undiplomatic? I keep hearing this work in regards to Rush's statement. Yet, I haven't seen any of those who dumped on Rush offer an alternative that is a) truthful, and b) to the fucking point. What Rush said was right. Period. There IS NOT OTHER WAY TO PUT IT, MORON! It is what it is.

The time for diplomacy is long over, Ace. The knives are out. I'm not saying that you and Patterico are BAD conservatives. I'm just calling you out as pussies. Either you want Obama to succeed in turning this nation into a socialist worker's paradise or you want him to fail in that endeavor. No middle ground.

As far as moving on? Fuck that. This needs to get hashed out and hashed out good before moving on. I don't want some crybaby moaning in the background that if only Rush were a little more diplomatic - nuanced, even - everybody would just love us and accept us. I don't want some delusional fuck like that watching my back.

There is a way to have this argument and finish it and then turn it back on Obama and his goons. Let's get going and get it done. Otherwise, shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of the way.

91

Sorry, I have a firm rule: Never root against America, even if America happens to be run by a socialist asshole.

I love my truck (2006 Dodge Power Wagon). I would never want anything to happen to it, and if I know somebody is trying to steal it...I hope he fails.

92 And here's the thing:  you claim to be making a prudential point about politics, but now you seem to be saying something about being patriotic.  Because from the political POV, when the shit hits the fan Barry OWNS it.  It doesn't matter whether he says we didn't want it to work or whatever bullshit -- it didn't help Bush 1 or Bush 2 or anyone.  Being oppositional -- even "badly" -- is *exactly* what political prudence demands.

Which you'd realize if you had been a Republican in 1992...

93 Mary Beth,

If you are denying that Rush's comment is hurtful -- or won't PLAY hurtful at least -- then what do I call you?

Of course it's hurtful -- witness the Dems' and the MSM's glee in repeating and rehashing it.

How could you imagine it's anything BUT hurtful?

Let me propose something: You want to fight and fight to rescue the comment, to prove that it's not offensive, etc.

I do not want to, because I think 1) the comment too easily lends itself to bad interpretations and 2) the media won't let us and 3) therefore it makes no sense to fight on it.

I don't want to have big fights that take lots of energy and time over stuff I can't win on. ESPECIALLY when it's an unimportant issue -- and I do not believe that Rush's four words is an important issue. Whether you're right, or I'm right, or Begala's right - - who cares? It was a four word statement.

There are more important issues. There are issues its easier to win on. Every hour we're talking about this we're NOT talking about better issues. Opportunity costs-- you cannot avoid them. We do not have limitless time. And as some have notoed, even as I'm saying "let's move on to other issues," I'm NOT. I'm on this one -- staying on a losing issue.

And the reason is simple: Because I feel I'm being attacked as a sell-out and RINO for offering what I think is pretty damn constructive advice -- move on. It's nonsense.

But because i feel personally attacked -- all this "ace you've changed," "The cocktail parties got to you, huh?" crap -- now I have personal skin in the game, don't I?

94

re: angler: "Look, if Rush had said (or if what he said could be reasonably so interpreted) was "I hope, because of Obama's policies, this country plunges into a great, calamitous, nasty depression, the likes of which we have not seen in generations," then Ace might have a point." 

Didn't Biden already say something similar to that? Or are our girded loins only suppose to protect us against possible foreign tests?

95 Want to change the subject?  Take off and post some lesbian porn from orbit. 

Its the only way to be sure.

96 Yeah, I get what he means... I just wish he had phrased it so as to make sure he was clear he didn't hope AMERICA failed with Obama.

Posted by: ace at March 08, 2009 05:20 PM (gEsIJ)

So, this is about semantics?  Come on.  I don't listen to Rush, but I am aware of his positions and principles.  And it's beyond obvious that the man LOVES AMERICA. 

Most of us have spent the last 5 months quaking in fear that Obama's success would be the utter failure of the America we love and support and work so hard to sustain.

This borders on the disingenuous.  As many people have said, if Obama's intention were the total destruction of America, what would he do differently?

97 Obama could fail by having his ideas rejected by the people to the extent that congress also rejects them and America recovers without him.

98 This is from the original transcript of what Rush said by the way:

I've been listening to Barack Obama for a year-and-a-half.  I know what his politics are.  I know what his plans are, as he has stated them.  I don't want them to succeed. 

Is that hard to understand?

No.

And honestly, no one here would be talking about it if Steele hadn't fallen flat on his face when that douchebag comedian tried to smear him with Rush's supposedly outrageous comments.

That's why everyone is talking about.

Because Steele is an utter embarrassment. Because Steel lacks the smarts and balls to turn that shit right back around on those scumbags.

The issue is the MSM and how we deal with them.

It's got nothing to do with Rush, really. My feelings aren't hurt because your criticized his "inartful" phrasing.

I just think you're missing the point. Because if it ain't Rush, it'll be someone else they'll be misquoting, smearing, and lying about.

99

AoS: With all due respect, you are wrong.

Picture this: A red button on the back of your head implanted by SNL. When they buzz, you jump.

You, and all of us, need to stop dancing to SNL's tune. They are going to try everything they can to tear us apart, shut down our efforts, and render us ineffectual. You are just playing their game if you pay ANY attention to them whatsoever. Realize that SNL will never have anything nice to say about any Republican or conservative leader. WE WILL NEVER FIND ANYONE WHO SNL WILL NOT TRY THEIR DARNDEST TO MOCK AND TEAR APART. Understand?

Moreover, the SNL clip was pretty mild.

If we start losing elections and losing our voice, then yes, we should replace Steele. But by calling for him to step down now is NOT constructive. We should be shutting up about this and not prolonging the discussion.

And BTW, we NEED a public face which is NOT Rush. It would be nice if Steele were able to become this. He is new to media. BTW, I saw his remarks on CNN and didn't think there was anything there to pick apart in the first place.

I don't think you are helping things at all. You are making things worse. Get on board and close ranks. If Steele *actually* screws up, then I'm with you, but he hasn't yet. It's just a bunch of liberal BS thus far, and you're playing right into their game.

100 The problem is that Obama cannot really fail without America going through a VERY tough patch. Limbaugh wasn't rooting for that tough patch, but it's hard for me to see how Obama can "Fail" without a long, deep recession (if not a depression).

Why did Clinton say "the era of big government is over"?  Why did he agree to reform welfare?  Because he was called on his 1992-1994 liberal bullshit.  His quest for universal health care reform FAILED.  And as a result, he was forced to navigate a more right-ward path.  And the country was better for it.

101 Needless to say, this whole damn thing is pissing me off.

102

Kinda O.T. but since we're supposed to be moving on, I picked up a Glock 22 .40 cal yesterday. Can't think of a better subject to move onto than firearm's.

 

 

103 Some people LOVE beating a dead horse.  But in this case, it's a dead elephant.  I can't read these comments; I tried but I'm just outta gas on the subject.

104 "I want Barack Obama to fail if his mission is to restructure and reform this country so that capitalism and individual liberty are not its foundation."--Rush Limbaugh

That's controversial?

Democrats tried to manufacture America's defeat in Iraq order to get Bush. They called him Hitler, they made movies, songs and books about his assassination, they leaked top secret info and conducted Black Ops against him. If voters can swallow all that, then they can process this, too.

Nor do I accept your assertion that Obama is winning the PR battle. This is Guerrilla Theater at the highest level--Al Sharpton has already denounced the gorilla.

This is not about poll numbers. This is about changing poll numbers. It's about leadership.

If Rush isn't doing it perfectly, at least he's doing it.

He's is our "man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

Rather than sit on the sidelines and critique Rush, I'm getting in the ring with him.

It's that important.

105

re: ace: "There are more important issues. There are issues its easier to win on. Every hour we're talking about this we're NOT talking about better issues. Opportunity costs-- you cannot avoid them. We do not have limitless time. And as some have notoed, even as I'm saying "let's move on to other issues," "

 

Alright, fair enough. So what other issues do you wish to discuss, Ace?

106 >>>That is the truth of what I believe (and I think Rush as well). I would not expect a prominent Republican politician to make that argument however. Basically I would be against socialism/communism even if it worked because I think it's morally wrong.

>>>So, Is that wrong?

No. Like I said, sometimes this idea slips into my mind and I chase it out. But slip in it does.

But the point is -- whether it's 'wrong" or not, you don't want this as your party's slogan, do you?

"WE WANT AMERICA TO SLIDE INTO A DEPRESSION BECAUSE THESE POLICIES ARE MORALLY WRONG AND MUST BE REPUDIATED."

It may be okay to think, or say on a blog, but I sure the fuck would not want this as our national slogan.

107 BUY BUY BUY

108 I'm coming a little late, but:

You don't have to defend it.

Don't defend it.  That's all you have to do.

What I don't get is the belief that by going further, by calling Rush ugly and incendiary, by making him a pariah among good Republicans, the Dems are somehow not going to bring up the "wanting to fail" issue anymore.

They're going to harp on it and harp on Limbaugh for the next decade no matter what we do.  There's absolutely no reason at this point, in 2009, to believe otherwise.

It's a question of fighting them or just surrendering this entirely--it's not going away.

I would also cut our leadership more slack if I was under the impression they were willing to defend some hill somewhere.  For instance, Ace, if you had done exactly what Steele did, I would have criticized you less because I know you are willing to fight them on other stuff.  I don't have that same confidence in others in our party right now.

Call it "street cred" for lack of something else, but when our leadership shows they're willing to stand up for us in other areas vs. sucking up to the right people, I will be more receptive to their complaints regarding the people in our party who are willing to fight the Dems.

109 Damn, dude, you never should have started talking about it in the first place! Now it's our fault for falling into Obama's trap b/c we wont stop telling you not to talk about it? Are you fucking kidding me?

110 Posted by: Chef Mojo at March 08, 2009 05:26 PM (21der)

Awesome, awesome post, Chef Mojo!

111

I hope Obama fucking fails.

We helped dig ourselves into this PC-talking-nonsense, the media and the Left have beat us over the head with it for years, they're not using it against us and to protect Obama, so there's gonna have to be a time when we fight this fight. 

We're saying now is the time.  We recognize the distraction gambit, we'd rather be ripping and exposing Barry, but if they're going to attack one of the clearest and most popular (if not the most popular) voices of conservatism with this kind of bullshit, bullshit which is fucking annoying when it's used for other causes, then when are we ever going to be indignant enough to call it the bullshit that it is? 

This is a perfect opportunity to tackle this PC-bullshit.  We are behind Rush, because he said what we think and we believe that we should be able to express ourselves in just those words -- it's not too fucking much to ask.  So what you're seeing, all these people coming to Rush's defense to say what he said exactly the way he said it, is the result of a lot of fucking people being fed up.  We should take advantage of that, not hurry past it. 

112 Let's stop letting the left set our agenda for us.  We need to be on the offensive set the tone and the debate...rather than being on the defensive, trying to deflect these diversionary tactics.  Just like the GWOT.  We should take the fight to the enemy, not sit back and hope for the best.

Jeebus on a tricycle, Ace - if you really want to get people to stop arguing about something, stop posting about it.

How about the fine suggestion I pasted above - please, for the sake of the republic, start threads on how we can attack. Do it now. Do it every day.

113

You guys say you want to oppose everything Obama does -- how about starting by opposing the menu of conversation topics he's cooked up for you?

And if this wasn't going on, the MSM would be covering conservative critiques of the Obama Administration? Mr. Steele wasn't even doing that before the Rush/Nazi imbroglio and neither was the MSM.

114 This seems like a really bad time for our country and for any movement left of center.  I'm really at a loss for any meaningful statement.

Kinda of depressing look at things a over the long term.  Even the greatest conservative/republican leaders only managed to slow the growth of government over time.  When they leave, it just keeps growing again. 

Very little has ever been repealed.

115 What I find hilarious is on a blog (that I greatly enjoy, by the way) notable for its constant servings of bloody, dripping, red meat, that occasionally the various proprietors (especially the majority stockholder) of said fresh kills feel the need to step back, "tsk tsk" in the manner of their best T. Coddington Van Vorhees, and chide the pack for their ravenous carnivorous appetites. Come on... really?

116 I EXPECT Obama to fail -- catastrophically. I WAS afraid that he would make the wrong moves but the economy would wind up perking up DESPITE his bad stewardship, and socialism would be credited.

I don't think that anymore -- I think 2012 is almost in the bag.

That's because I know think Obama is such a disaster he's going to plunge us into a DEPRESSION.

Now, am I ROOTING for a depression? Rooting for millions and millions of Americans to live in misery for five or six years?

No. And I would never ever want to say it. I don't even want to think it.

It's what I think now will happen but certainly not what I root for.

And yes, I am troubled that -- whatever Rush meant -- he could say something that could even be interpreted this way so glibly.

You see Ace, this is why you fail. That isn't even what Rush meant. He would rather see Obama fail at turning the country into a Socialist Republic, not fail at recovering the economy. Not sure why you default to the same "least flattering light" view of Rush's comments as you have already been accused.

117 It may be okay to think, or say on a blog, but I sure the fuck would not want this as our national slogan.

Agreed 100%.  Either party would have to be nuts to frame their argument in the manner you described which is exactly why the media is attempting to frame the conservative argment in that manner.  The real problem here is that the RNC put a guy in charge who somehow fell into the media's trap and gave them the soundbite they needed to make Rush vs Steele a big issue.   

118 Rush saying "I hope he [Obama] fails" does not equal "I hope America fails."  Anyone who believes otherwise is deliberately distorting.  Period.

This is my favorite blog.  I would guess it is quite influential in many ways.  I would hate for the Mencken quote at the top to be literally construed.  Maybe it should be removed for fear that some might take it out of context and conclude that Ace, and his commenters, wish to literally slash throats.

Excellent point. 

Or at least it should me more artfully stated.

How about: "Every normal man (or womyn) must be attempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and start saying really stern things to other people (in a non-offensive way that cannot me misinterpreted, of course, lest anybody mischaracterize those stern things that were said."

119 Like -- how about we fucking talk about the stuff Obama does not wanting us talking about?

 Future conversation:
L: "Rush wants America to fail"
R: "I'd rather not talk about Rush. However, I am concerned about the earmarks in the stimulus bill, after Obama promised no earmarks.
L: So you don't defend Rush?
R: I want to talk about earmarks.
L: You want America to fail!
Media: R's want America to fail.

You can only have a conversation if both parties are engaged. The media takes it's talking points from Obama. He will not engage, the Democrats will not engage, the media won't debate honestly,  so the Republicans end up talking to the wall.

120 re: Ace: "WE WANT AMERICA TO SLIDE INTO A DEPRESSION BECAUSE THESE POLICIES ARE MORALLY WRONG AND MUST BE REPUDIATED." It may be okay to think, or say on a blog, but I sure the fuck would not want this as our national slogan. Well, who is explicitly saying this besides you? As was pointed out above, Clinton's foray into leftwing land failed & caused him to move to the center. You state that you don't want the GOP to use Dem's talking points, but you've swallowed their talking points & spin, hook, line & sinker. The Dems have taken over all 3 branches of government. They control most of the MSM. They are now marching off to destroy any & all opposition to their policies. They are starting with Rush, but certainly won't end with Rush. I'm not defending Rush, or any specific statement he makes, but his freedom to make speeches that annoy his political enemies.

121 It's not like the left would use doctored audio to take what someone said out of context...<a href="http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=282403&comments=1">oh wait</a>!

122 Van Vorhees

Heh, heh.

123 So let's turn the page and move on.  Like -- how about we fucking talk about the stuff Obama does not wanting us talking about?

That's all well and good, except for the part where IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CORE PRINCIPLES TO PROMOTE, OR HAVEN"T TAKEN THE TIME TO DEFINE THEM, OR TOSSED THE MOTHERFUCKING LIBERAL/MODERATE/RINO/BIG-GOVERNMENT/BAILOUT ASSHOLES OUT OF YOUR PARTY, THEN YOU HAVE NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT.

Of course, we could always oppose Obama by talking about how Michelle gave some DVDs to the Brits for the next 3 years.  No one will notice our lack of a platform or anything.  

Here's the part a lot of anti-Rush people don't seem to get -- until you have something forceful, principled and coherent to say, you don't get to change the subject.  You get to play the role of the whiny, bitchy, peanut gallery. 

Welcome to Peanut Gallery status, Republican Party!  The bailouts, the Medicare prescription drugs, the massive budgets and the pissing away of anything resembling a real conservative agenda now means you have nothing to offer but aesthetics and gripes.

124

Like the spinning dancer I can read what Rush has said and written both ways. Dunno if that is deliberate but see nothing wrong with taking it to the MSM for distorting Rush by connecting Obama personally failing with America failing.

Obama cannot really fail without America going through a VERY tough patch

America IS going through a tough patch. Obama's policies ARE being enacted. I reject both of the Patterico #1 #2 interpretations for those reasons. I would put it my own way (not being a mind reader): "I hope the pain and suffering that results from Obama's agenda angers American voters to remove Obama’s domestic power base in the 2010 congress elections."

Note: "result"can also be failure to remedy the trouble we are already in. Obama's policies are clearly not going to restore a market economy, and seem intended to create a social justice economy. That can only "help" some groups at the expense of others. The MSM, dimorats and Obama will call that success. Not me.

125 93 Mary Beth,

If you are denying that Rush's comment is hurtful -- or won't PLAY hurtful at least -- then what do I call you?

Of course it's hurtful -- witness the Dems' and the MSM's glee in repeating and rehashing it.

How could you imagine it's anything BUT hurtful?


You don't have to call me anything, Ace, because I'm not denying anything of the sort.

I never once said or suggested that the comment as skewed by the left wasn't hurtful.

I said that it doesn't matter how a conservative message is delivered and it never will.  Anything and everything Rush or any other conservative says will be taken and used in order to distract from what's going on.  If it wasn't this, it would have been from another Rush monologue because he was their target.

Rush could have quoted Shakespeare and somehow that would have been wrong.

So why waste time trying to tweak the syntax to make it more acceptable to the media, who are invested in fostering this kind of divide?  His message was sound and anyone who heard what he said understood exactly what he meant.

Rush's words were not hurtful.  The leftist spin on it was, which the media happily regurgitated.  And this will always be the case.

126 This is sad, and I think actually does have to do with Ace having voted for Clinton twice and thus not really remembering what being in opposition is actually about.

But worse, it looks like he's improperly analogized to the arguments conservatives made about how the WoT was too important to dick around with politically.

Hello:  there's a reason why the saying is "politics ends at the water's edge".  If you start believing that can be true at home -- a recession is too important!  health care is too important!  blahblahblah -- you've not only missed the point entirely but actually bought into Barry's lie.  "Everything's so important and so screwed up that we have to be bipartisan and do exactly what I say without criticizing!"

Bull fucking shit.

127 That's because I know think Obama is such a disaster he's going to plunge us into a DEPRESSION.

That's when Obama's successful at implementing his policies. If he fails, we avoid the depression. Of course the media will give him credit either way so we're screwed.

128 #84

+1

I hardly post here at all, even though it's the first and last (well, except for the Asian nurse site) thing I read at night. Nuance is for John Kerry.

129 Here I had drawn the conclusion that what the country is going through now IS Obama succeeding.

His plans, dreams, hopes and audacity with no opposition in congress going through as planned.

He is succeeding.

The Country is failing.

We are opposed to his ideals.

If Obama fails the country is better off.

Is that why you took a spoonfull of sugar and voted for McCain?

I hope he fails.


Ergo USA succeeds.

but then again I'm a moron.

Obamaian success of course means US success.

Got it........

130 Look. We lost  by what 6% with a candidate that isn't on our side? Come on. If the GOP had anyone with ANY balls they would have won. The only guy that had the balls to flame this little cunt was Rudy.

Rudy would have kicked his ass.

We need guys who ain't afraid to talk. Guys who will tell the msm to fuck themselves when they're pulling that bullshit.

131 Two things, Ace.

1) WRT: "See? The media have blacked out coverage of Obama's snub of Gordon Brown. Because that hurts the Democrats."

Pretty weak tea there. The media will self-select no matter what. It's the sin of omission and/or diversion. You can never win that unless we, as opposition, cease to exist. BS argument.

2) Quit complaining about all the divisions being made on the Right over this. You post something, your audience will respond. Do yourself a favor and quit posting about it if you want to move on to more important things. I should think this is pretty obvious.

132 This is a non-event. Steele broke Reagan's 11th commandment,which gave Il Douche Obama the opening. Fuck Steele. Throw him overboard and move on.

133

"WE WANT AMERICA TO SLIDE ... etc ..."

Oh ??? Suppose the only way to prevent that was give up the 1st and 2nd amendment? How much should WE surrender to avoid some economic hardship that can rapidly be reversed with Reaganomics? Which we are not going to get until this clown show leaves town.

134 Here's the part a lot of anti-Rush people don't seem to get -- until you have something forceful, principled and coherent to say, you don't get to change the subject.

Excellent point.

135

I meant, of course, "...they're NOW using it against us..."

One final thing.  It's early in the game, Obama has tanked faster than he and the media expected, so they've been forced to feign indignation by drumming up nonsense like this so-called Rush fiasco in order to distract people.  But it's March 2009.  Who cares if we have to talk about this (and of course not only this) for a month or even two.  Better we dismantle this weapon of theirs now than deal with in 2010 or, worse yet, in 2012. 

So, let them have this little victory of distracting people.  I think it's a card they've been forced to play early, and we should take advantage of that.

136 "Ace having voted for Clinton twice"


Is that true Ace?

Holy fuck.

137 Ilbis:

Maybe this is the reason you can't see what i see and I don't get why you can't see it.

I find the idea that we'll be able to block his policies unrealistic. Most of them -- and the big ones -- will get through. Witness spendulus.

So I don't see this as a statment about hoping he fails to ENACT his policies. I consider their enactment almost a fait accompli. We can get a little bit changed but in the end we'll be sold out by Pink Lady and Specter.

So when I hear "I hope he fails" I hear that is "I hope his enacted policies fail, and America slides further into economic misery."

Which is something I kinda understand. I have written for months of my nightmare that Obama would pass all these atrocious bills and the economy would nevertheless fight on despite his attempts to kill it, and he'd get the credit, and socialism would be empowered.

So obviously I don't want that. That being a nightmare.

However I still have trouble rooting for economic disaster. And I think that's how Obama "fails" -- by his economic policies, mostly passed, failing, and America going down the shitter for five years.

And THAT is why I think this is a hurtful statement. Even if one believes this (and I guess I sorta do), I sure the hell don't want to SAY it and tell people "You know, I'm rooting for a nice deep recession here just to teach you a lesson."

138 Jesus, ace.

LET IT GO.

139 "Ace having voted for Clinton twice"

I'll cast no stones.  "Read my lips" made me sit out 1992, and "Dole/Kemp" barely got me to the poles.  Barely.

140 "The only guy that had the balls to flame this little cunt was Rudy."

Well, yeah.  But a gal had the balls.

"It's early in the game"

exactly

141 A booby post would halt this crap toot sweet.

142

I have to believe that if by some miracle Obama HAD FAILED to pass the stimulus bill, we would currently be in much less danger of the disatrous economic meltdown everyone fears.

Barack says that "some people" wanted to do nothing. That's not really true, but nothing would indeed have been preferable to what we ended up getting.

If only he had failed, we wouldn't have another $850 billion crowding the capitol markets, putting the debt out of reach and paying for the leftist central planning apparatus.

143 Let. It. Go.

144 Worrying about the semantics on how to deliver the conservative message in a manner that will appease the media is like tuning fiddles while Rome burns all around us.

145 This is the silly shit Emmanuel, Carville, and Begala came up for us to talk about. Is that what we're doing now?

This is what bothers me the most.  They lay the trap - we willingly jump in.  Divide and conquer. Letting the Libs define the conservative message is so dangerous because they are so good at spin and distortion.

146 Basically I would be against socialism/communism even if it worked because I think it's morally wrong.

>>>So, Is that wrong?

No. Like I said, sometimes this idea slips into my mind and I chase it out. But slip in it does.

But the point is -- whether it's 'wrong" or not, you don't want this as your party's slogan, do you?

"WE WANT AMERICA TO SLIDE INTO A DEPRESSION BECAUSE THESE POLICIES ARE MORALLY WRONG AND MUST BE REPUDIATED."
We may be getting somewhere, here. It seems to me that what is actually behind this is that Ace, you seem to actually think that Obama plunging this nation headlong into socialism could actually PREVENT a depression OR result in an END to the recession. Do you ? I think Depression and Socialism are inseparable.

If Obama succeeds in nationalizing health care, energy, and the banking industry, this nation is MOST DEFINITELY headed for a depression. Saying you want Obama to fail means you want American and Capitalism to succeed, and THAT is the only way out of this mess.

Put it another way - I hope Obama fails at instituting the exact same kind of policies that Hoover did. Because we all know how that turned out. And frankly, the same goes for FDR. There is one sure solution to this problem that results in the worst possible outcome - Depression - and that is uncontrolled growth of the federal government.

147 Fucking hilarious.  Ace, your fears trump the context of what Rush actually said?  This isn't about you, you know.  Unbelievable.

148 Sorry Phinn, but the Republicans did offer an alternate stimulus bill, but unless you watched CSPAN, you barely heard anything about it. Without an honest and fair media, your limited exposure to the entire debate will bring you to the exact conclusion you just stated.

149 This is fundamentally an unserious and unimportant issue.

I completely disagree. I think the this issue is fundamental to why conservatism has lost power, the conceding to liberalism the meaning of what we say. Recognizing this fundamental problem and combating it is crucial to any future relevance.

we get yelled at for not defending Rush vigorously enough and are informed Rush's off-the-cuff four-word statement was PERFECT

That is such bullshit. Rush's comment was not "off the cuff". It was set up, stated, explained, and expounded on. Plus, he has been saying for 20 years he wants liberalism to fail. You have to be dishonest to act confused over his meaning.

Sorry, I have a firm rule: Never root against America, even if America happens to be run by a socialist asshole.

More Bullshit. Rush said directly he wanted Obama to fail so America could succeed. To concede the lefts premise that Obama is America is just stupid.

 

150 For fucks sake, are we really suggesting Ace is off the team?

Does he troll the base like Frum?  No.  +5000

Does he rip on the left like a maniac like Limbaugh?  Yes. +10,000

Does he give some support to Patterico on an unpopular position?  Yes. -.0001.

That's +14,999.9999.

Not all disagreements are equal.

151 Which is something I kinda understand. I have written for months of my nightmare that Obama would pass all these atrocious bills and the economy would nevertheless fight on despite his attempts to kill it, and he'd get the credit, and socialism would be empowered.

That's like saying that it's a risk that Obama will successfully pour a couple hundred million metric tons of radioactive toxic waste into the water supply, but people would miraculously not end up getting hurt, and so the toxic-waste-in-the-water agenda would be empowered. 

Not.  Possible. 

Doubling the deficits will cause hardship.  Like clockwork. 

Doubling the deficits will cause inflation.  Like clockwork. 

These are matters of cause and effect. 

Our job, as the opposition, is to be there to POINT OUT the harmful effects, and then blame Obama as the cause. 

We can't do that if we don't offer the public a bona fide alternative to Obamanomics (aka socialism). 

152 My comment at 5:56 refers to those talking about his old voting record.

153 Uhm, does that mean we can now talk about lace wigs?

154 The problem is that Obama cannot really fail without America going through a VERY tough patch. Limbaugh wasn't rooting for that tough patch, but it's hard for me to see how Obama can "Fail" without a long, deep recession (if not a depression).

Ace,
Not one thing Obama has proposed is designed to repair the economy.They are designed to expand government control in every way possible.He is relying on economic failure to accomplish these goals.If he succeeds we get the double whammy of economic collapse and becoming France.So I hope he fails.How about making that the argument?

155

If you give me six lines written by the most honest man, I will find something in them to hang him.

156 "For fucks sake, are we really suggesting Ace is off the team?"

No.  We're wondering where his balls went and why he's spending so much time today lecturing us.  But comment 137 pretty much tells the tale.  No hope, no morale, no resistance.

157  I only buy Remy, kal.

158 "Never root against America, even if America happens to be run by a socialist asshole."

Fuck you, Ace.  If all you got from the many conversations here is that we are rooting against America , than you are no better than the left wing fucktards.   Way to treat your readers, Ace.

159 If you are denying that Rush's comment is hurtful -- or won't PLAY hurtful at least -- then what do I call you?

Of course it's hurtful -- witness the Dems' and the MSM's glee in repeating and rehashing it.

Again you fail. As another commenter stated, Rush is on 3 hrs a day. If he had never made the "I want him to fail" comment, considering this was a coordinated attack by Emanual, Carville, and the MSM, it would have been some other comment. I mean please. You can't be serious.

No, frankly, what he said was not hurtful, and the idea that this was some kind of anomoly that the MSM would spin something Rush said as offensive, you are, I don't know, not thinking clearly ?

It only became hurtful when Steele engaged the idiotic MSM - and for what reason, I will never know - and allowed them to further perpetuate their plan.

And what's more, even if it WAS hurtful, you are only playing into the Democrat's hands by saying so. Commenting on the nature of Rush's comments, regardless of what they are, is the problem. The media isn't even interested in the context. They are just interested in sound bites, and with one from Rush, they got what they wanted from Steele in another. The first one is going to happen. There is simply no way to avoid it. You cannot allow the second.

160
A perfect vid to accompany this post is Will Ferrell shouting, "CALM DOWN EVERYONE."

I wish I could find it.

161 'm rooting for a nice deep recession here just to teach you a lesson."

Show me where Rush said that, or anything close.  That is what people have deliberately distorted what he said to mean.  That distortion is what a  lot of people are pissed at.
I wish you'd treat those people (like Patterico, Frum, et al.) like you do trolls, and say "Fuck you. That's not what I said, and you know it.  You are deliberately twisting what was said.  Fuck off and goodbye."

162 148 Sorry Phinn, but the Republicans did offer an alternate stimulus bill, but unless you watched CSPAN, you barely heard anything about it. Without an honest and fair media, your limited exposure to the entire debate will bring you to the exact conclusion you just stated.

Posted by: mossberg500 at March 08, 2009 05:56 PM (WaeuC)

Not only did the Republicans offer an alternative bill, but the freshman DEMOCRAT congressman from Idaho offered a terrific one.  Google Walter Minnick and check it out.  He stripped everything out of the original bill except what would actually create jobs and do what the fraudulent one promised in his campaign bullshit and it topped out at around $274 billion.

163
A perfect vid to accompany this post is Will Ferrell shouting, "CALM DOWN EVERYONE."

I wish I could find it.

164
A perfect vid to accompany this post is Will Ferrell shouting, "CALM DOWN EVERYONE."

I wish I could find it.

165 Sorry Phinn, but the Republicans did offer an alternate stimulus bill, but unless you watched CSPAN, you barely heard anything about it. Without an honest and fair media, your limited exposure to the entire debate will bring you to the exact conclusion you just stated.

Sorry, but its a day late and a dollar short.  It's a fart in a windstorm.  Why?  Because Republicans are still putting Steele with his "Yeah, we look like Nazis" in positions of marketing the core message. 

It's going to take years to develop the Republican brand again.  Years.  The only way to do that is by offering a GENUINE alternative to Democrats.  On principle.  Something EVERYONE can understand. 

The alternative that the Republicans ought to be offering should be HUGE!  Take a fucking stance!  Republicans can't do that with one freaking vote on one stinking bill!  Not when we haven't taken the time to define our basic fucking principles! 

Not when we have pissed away all of our small-government credibility for the last 7 fucking years, first with George W. "Bailout" Bush, and then with the nomination of John Fucking McCain! 

166 Ok, gonna try this again.

Ace, I think we are arguing past each other at this point because we are arguing about different things. You are arguing about specific words while a lot of us are arguing about the tactic being used.

The left and the MSM have been doing this for years. They take words from their opponents out context and then try to hammer them with the twisted sound bites. Too often, almost always, we back down and allow the person who made the statement to be marginalized. This is what they want more than anything. And by going along with the program, well that is the real game they really want.

I'm not fighting for Rush on this issue out of some sense of loyalty to him personally. I am fighting for him on this issue because he happens to be the current target. Next time it might be you, or me. They will keep doing this until we stop them because it works for them.

Everyone agrees this was cooked up Begala, Carville and Emmanuel. Hell, you think it was a coincidence that Stephanoplus let Emmanuel make the case for this, unchallenged, on his show? Even Matthews is calling bullshit on this stunt.

This tactic needs to be stopped or they will keep setting the agenda, telling us what we can and can't say and marginalizing our leaders. Speak truth to power baby!

167 I find the idea that we'll be able to block his policies unrealistic. Most of them -- and the big ones -- will get through. Witness spendulus.

I totally agree on that. We can't do a thing.

 when I hear "I hope he fails" I hear that is "I hope his enacted policies fail, and America slides further into economic misery."

But I see his policies as the cause of, and the prolongation of the economic misery. If his policies fail, we avoid the misery. But again, he's gonna get whatever he wants so we're screwed either way. The Libs say that if you oppose The Messiah you're rooting for economic collapse. We say we're opposing The Messiah because the policies will exacerbate the economic collapse. And I also opposed TARP, AIG, porkulus etc. I figured a little short term pain was better than mortgaging my grandkid's future to the hilt.

168 We're here. And agree on everything or not... and it might not seem like it, it's rallying us. This should have happend in during the primaries.

We wouldn't be in this shit.

So let's go outside, beat the fuck out of each other...and go back inside and buy each other a beer.

169

Rush said directly he wanted Obama to fail so America could succeed.

That's the crux of this entire shitstorm.

The Left and MSM do not decouple Obama's failure from America's failure because it suits their agenda in attacking Rush --- "Rush wants America to fail."

Ace et al. do not decouple the discrete failures because... well, frankly I missed that part.

170 Ace, put down the coffee cup. Step away from the coffee. Coffee is for closers only.

Also I think that you may have a little too much caffeine in your system today. NTTAWWT. But I know if I drink too much coffee I get all jittery and then the screaming and crying starts.

171 http://tinyurl.com/bg24hw

^^ A real blogger needs to do something like that (I'm not one).  But the Drive-By's will back the fuck off this issue if they constantly get a stream of this regurgitated into their faces.

They don't want people to remember this kind of stuff.

172

That being a nightmare. ... However I still have trouble rooting for economic disaster

Like a slasher flick chick that can't turn away and run when the monster appears and can only stand there screaming while ...

173 http://tinyurl.com/bg24hw

^^ A real blogger needs to do something like that (I'm not one).  But the Drive-By's will back the fuck off this issue if they constantly get a stream of this regurgitated into their faces.

They don't want people to remember this kind of stuff.

174 >>>No.  We're wondering where his balls went and why he's spending so much time today lecturing us.  But comment 137 pretty much tells the tale.  No hope, no morale, no resistance.

I'm not going to actually run the numbers but this is a widely read blog that runs 95% red meat to 5% introspection.  Is this argument (where people keep going farther and farther because of the insults) bigger than that long and positive history?

Tomorrow Ace is going to toss out another 20 pounds of red meat.  So, we got a shitty salad today.  Such is life.

175 Ace -

I like to listen to Rush for (many of) the same reasons I like to read your blog.  He is funny.  He is usually, but not always, right on the money in his analysis.  He says shit provocatively sometimes, knowing that the MSM will use selected quotes against him but also knowing that those who follow him on a regular basis understand what he believes and what he stands for, and agree with him on 99.9% of it.  So, we should defend him like we would defend you if you were attacked and then (YES!) move on.  What I don't think we should do is spend brain and blog power on the puzzling POV that a reasonable person might think Rush wants the nation to tank.  None of us think you want to kill a hobo, dude, and none of us would put up with someone suggesting that you might really want to do that.

176 Barry has basically yelled "CRIPPLE FIGHT!!!"

Obama is in the process of enacting horrible plan after horrible plan and we are all rubbernecking to see radio entertainer Rush vs David fucking Frum.

I havn't read his goddamn name in 10 years as much as I have in the past week. Who cares if he's not "authentic?" He ain't down with the struggle!!!one!11

He's David F'n Frum! It's not like we've found out that Ronald Reagan liked watercress sandwitches, wearing topsiders and supporting abortions. . .

The movement isn't shaken to its core by either Rush being a attention whore or by Frum or Brooks being a differnt type of prostitute.

How the hell do we keep falling for this crap?

177

You guys say you want to oppose everything Obama does -- how about starting by opposing the menu of conversation topics he's cooked up for you?

I'm not the person puttng up post after post after post on the Limbaugh Affair. The people who post blogs here set the agenda for what gets discussed. If you don't want Limbaugh talked about endlessly, then stop talking about him already.

 

178

Well, good. The problem is the two-bit whores like Frum and Brooks who don't give a good goddamn about the conservative movement won't let it go. It is the only way they are relevant. I'll let it go. But you can bet your sweet ass that the Fifth Columnists will write endlessly about it until they move on to the next ally to bash. And when we won't respond, Newsweek or some other Obamatute outlet will publish a Frum op-ed piece to try to reignite this nonsense.

And it is nonsense. And I haven't so lost faith in the American people to think they won't figure that one out between 401k statements.

179 Ace, ole boy, the "I hope he fails" quote is terribly misleading and frankly beneath this web site.

You, and your 'big tent' contingent should take the time to getting the full quote by Rush rather than be spoon feed tiny morsels by Rahm & Co.

The full quote contains a major caveat and preamble. Rush essentially said that if the liberal policies that Obama is pushing (and are hugely detrimental to our Country) are what he represents, I hope he fails.   

It is all too convenient for you and others (MSM, Donks, etc.) to truncate Rush's quote in order to try and score points. Forget it!

Before you continue to post snake oil, take the time to go to Rush's web site and read the freakin' transcript.

180 Phinn, the thing is, if the recession is deep enough and long enough, than ANY meager growth will eventually be perceived as a win.

Dude -- FDR.

181 Even fairly socialized states in Europe grow. They just don't grow very much.

182

oh for the love of christ, what in the hell is going on here? the Limbaugh remark is irrelevent already.

There is a growing tidal wave of anger building up and yes <gasp> it will be led by people that want Obama to fail. Put me at the front of that line.

Tap into that anger now instead of worrying about whether we should tone down the rhetoric so that it plays better in the media. Nothing we do will play well in the media. screw the media and quit trying to court the undecideds and moderates. they are followers, they have to be led.

Its time to get audacious.

183 "See? The media have blacked out coverage of Obama's snub of Gordon Brown. Because that hurts the Democrats."

The snubbing of Gordon Brown would never be reported in this state run media, no matter how slow the news cycle. They would have written about Michelle Obama's "toned arms" or something.

Rush has been selected as the face of the opposition. As a talk radio personality, he has the luxury of being hyperpartisan and is a polarizing figure. Throwing him under the bus to appease the moderates is a mistake. It's what Rahm Emanuel, James Carville and Barack Obama want you to do. The immediate response should be, "Well, let's look at this President's first 100 days in office. What is he doing?"

It should be called the distraction it is and brushed aside. The real issue is how Obama is a socialist. He hates being called out on it, and that's what, "I hope he fails," really does.

184 Couldn't agree more with all of Ace's points.

185 Even fairly socialized states in Europe grow. They just don't grow very much.

A defense of socialism?  From Ace?

186 Ace -

I like to listen to Rush for (many of) the same reasons I like to read your blog.  He is funny.  He is usually, but not always, right on the money in his analysis.  He says shit provocatively sometimes, knowing that the MSM will use selected quotes against him but also knowing that those who follow him regularly understand what he believes and what he stands for, and agree with him on 99.9% of it.  So, we should defend him like we would defend you if you were attacked and then (YES!) move on.  What I don't think we should do is spend brain and blog power on the puzzling POV that a reasonable person might think Rush wants the nation to fail.  None of us think you want to kill a hobo, dude, and none of us would put up with someone suggesting that you might really want to do that.

187

And when it is suggested to you that

1) This is not an important hill

and

2) This is a hill which is difficult to defend

so

3) We should move on to more important hills,

the "cocktail party elitist" crap starts.

Which fucking hill do you want to defend?  I haven't seen you identify one yet.  Following your approach, we're not just gonna run out of hills; we're going to get run out right of the country.

Get in their faces when they lie, call them the liars they are, and turn the debate around. 

188 >>>I like to listen to Rush for (many of) the same reasons I like to read your blog. He is funny. He is usually, but not always, right on the money in his analysis. He says shit provocatively sometimes, knowing that the MSM will use selected quotes against him but also knowing that those who follow him on a regular basis understand what he believes and what he stands for, and agree with him on 99.9% of it.

You're acting like I'm writing "I hate Rush." I'm saying no such thing. I'm just saying the sentence he spoke is politically troublesome.

That was my point when the Steele thing came up -- "Look, Steele fucked up, but he was dealing with a troublesome quote, let it go."

i just don't see the ultimate upside of the party accepting the debate here, that what we're now going to talk about is whether the GOP wants the economy to fail.

This is what I find attractive about the "he misspoke and should have spoken more cautiously" solution -- it's quick, it's easy, it defends rush against the charge that he wants to America to fail while merely advising him to watch out for how he puts things, then we can move on.

I don't see the point of arguing beyond that.

189 ACE: We've got to do something

RUSS: Absolutely.  You know what we've got to do?

ENTIRE ACE OF SPADES COMMENTERS IN UNISON: Limbaugh!

ACE: we're on double secret probation, whatever that is, we can't afford Limbaugh.

RUSS: You guys up for Limbaugh?

COMMENTERS: LIMBAUGH! LIMBAUGH!

RUSS: I think they like the idea, Ace.

ACE: Oh, Russ, please don't do this.

RUSS: I got news for ya, pal, they're gonna nail us no matter what we do.  So we might as well have a good time.

RUSS: Limbaugh! Liimbaugh!

COMMENTERS: LIMBAUGH! LIMBAUGH! LIMBAUGH! LIMBAUGH! . . . .

190 Wait, ace, first you buy the Democrats/MSM spin on Rush's comment ("I want Obama to fail" means "I want America to fail") and then you accuse us of being played?

What's wrong with this picture?

191 Seriously.

"Care to explain, "I hope he fails"?"

"Obama is a socialist. He said he was bipartisan. That was a lie. I want bringing socialism to America to fail."

"But he is the President. Do you want your President to fail?"

"If he's a socialist... YES. I want America to remain the great country that it is. If Obama shares my ideas for this country, if he is truly bipartisan, I would be happy to discuss, debate or be of any assistance I can be. I love this country."

This has worked, is working and will work. Don't let them turn the topic to Rush, which they will do no matter what he says. Keep hammering away that Obama and the Democrats are all socialists. They are collectivists.

192 Well I just saw Patterico is trying to save face walk the cat back on his earlier position.

193 The main reason this is a hill not worth defending is because it's got our flag on it.  This morning on Fox Britt Hume and the panel concluded this whole thing is a net looser for the dems.  They're right.  Rush's rating are going nuts and anyone an ounce of objectivity familiar with this story know the Dems are trying to pull some shit here.   Oh, and by the way, poll numbers indicate that support for O's socialist bullshit are dropping.  

The tide is starting to turn.  And it sure as shit doesn't have anything to do Frum's bellyaching.  Ouite the opposite.  Fact is, Rush is way ahead of the curve on this one.  Time now for the rest of us to catch up and get in on the beat down while this fucker is still on the ropes.  Enough of this rope-a-dope crap.  Finish him! 

194 I get your point, Ace, but I am of the mind that it wouldn't matter what "we" talked about, "they" would still only focus on what they want talked about, anyway, just like during the campaign. 

The time will eventually come when Zer0 can't run and hide anymore and he will be outed for the total fraud that he is. 

195 A defense of socialism? From Ace?

They must have promised him he can cut the toilet paper line and get all the Val-U-Rite Vodka he can haul home in his hobo cart.

196 I'm with you, Ace.  I've thought this, in general, for awhile now.

Could it be that the reason why it's being discussed so much is because conservatives (in general) have really not had any elected official to rally behind...I mean REALLY get behind (Palin came close, but mostly with "the base").

Politicians are always disappointing, but "our side" has been even more so over the last 15 years or so.  Rush seems like the only who's "been with us" throughout.

I feel like we've been divided and conquered sometimes.

197

it wasn't a helpful comment -- What, I'm not allowed to say that now? I'm "undermining the cause" by saying it?

You're missing the point by saying it, ace.  Maybe this particular comment was intentionally provocative and Rush could have avoided some controversy here, but (a) they would have found something that Limbaugh said that they can spin to be worse and (b) you accept their premise:

Hello!  It's Rush Limbaugh!  I don't care what he says.  About anything.  He's a commenter -- comedian or not.  He talks about the issues of the day and that what he cares about.  He's not failing to nominate cabinet members.  He's not fucking up state visits.  He's not spending trillions of dollars.  He's not raising taxes or bring about inflation.

Let's talk about the president!  Or, more importantly, his teleprompter

198

Ace: My take? It's simple. It was not a helpful comment. I will not defend it because I do not have the time or inclination to waste my time on trivialities. So let's turn the page and move on.

Like -- how about we fucking talk about the stuff Obama does not wanting us talking about?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

If you feel that strongly about it, maybe you should start your own blog, where you can post only about things you are interested in. Then, if you think a topic shouldn't be covered, you don't post about it on your blog! And things you think should be covered, you can post about! You could even come up with a cutesy name, like Ace of something-or-other...

199 Okay, Ace voted for Clinton twice so he probably doesn't remember '94.

If not for Limbaugh, we probably wouldn't have taken congress back in '94, if we had not taken congress Clinton would have made a hell of a mess - we would have socialized medicine already for example. The down side is the Republican congress probably kept Clinton in office for his second term because his flaws were hidden.

Anyway - Limbaugh's numbers are going up, Obama's numbers are going down.

Don't freak out about the "I hope he fails" quote. It will all work out.

200

You're acting like I'm writing "I hate Rush." I'm saying no such thing. I'm just saying the sentence he spoke is politically troublesome.

This is a site where the customary description of Obama is that he's a commie cockholster with a Klingon wife. If you find what Rush said to be "politically troublesome" then I assume this site will be getting a major overhaul.

201 I concur with what Mary Beth and Noel state so well, these are hardly the times for subtle niceties. Too few Republicans are willing to hit the trenches in support of conservatism, so its left to Rush, Levin, Hannity to do what they can.

A major restructuring of America is underway, which Instapunk eloquently presents in its terrible glory, which threatens all that most of us hold dear. After reading punk's essay, who would not wish for Obama to fail?

Ace, I get your position, but I believe that your concern is misplaced, Americans will ultimately come to blame Obama for their woes in due time. Recession or depression, Obama owns it now for all its worth.

In the end, all this fuss regarding Rush and Steele will blow over by 2010 regardless.

202 I hate to fling more poo on this, and I really want it to end, also, but Mary Beth is on to something. The gang of Begala, Rahmbo, Carville, Stephanopolus, and whoever else, decided back in OCTOBER to make Rush the target. So sayeth Begala and Carville. That's when they did their little survey, and got their supposed, now debunked, numbers of Rush's unpopularity. So, MB is right, they were waiting to jump on something. I also think theat there was nothing uncautious about Rush saying this. He said it the way he wanted to, exactly the way he wanted it to come out, ON PURPOSE. He was trying, I think to bring about some blood in the water early in the new year to the party. We need that, IMO. It is a good time to get people fired up, make them decide what they really believe, and to work to get RINOs out of the party. This kind of stuff was done by Clinton's ppl, and didn't go well. It won't this time, either. People will get tired of it. EVERYTHING IN POLITICS WORKS IN A CYCLE. In the last 9 election cycles, one portion of the Congress or another has changed hands 6 times. Things come and go.This too shall pass.

203 No. We're wondering where his balls went and why he's spending so much time today lecturing us. But comment 137 pretty much tells the tale. No hope, no morale, no resistance.

No wonder he got his ass kicked by a Canadian chick. What was her blog called? Small Dead Furry Animals or something?

204

Did conservatives walk into this? 

http://tinyurl.com/dlhgey

We need to find our laughing place. 

http://tinyurl.com/dypz2n

205 >>>>Never root against America, even if America happens to be run by a socialist asshole.<<<<<<

Will someone please explain why we are so willing to concede that Obama = America?

206

Two ways to think about Rush's comment:

1)  Obama fails, then America fails (and the contrapositive: Obama succeeds, then America succeeds).

2) Obama fails, then no United States of France (and: Obama succeeds, then the United States of France).

Ace, you're viewing things as stated in 1), while we're viewing it as stated in 2).  We can't understand how changing America into a big government, socialist state is a win for Americans.  You're saying you hope Obama succeeding in improving the economy, the lives of Americans.  That is a naive perspective, although one (at least in your case) bourne out of compassion.  Let's be realistic about Obama's goal, and once you do that you too will want him to fail. 

207 See? The media have blacked out coverage of Obama's snub of Gordon Brown. Because that hurts the Democrats.

As another newspaper dies off and the journaljizzmers tell us that without their layers of editing, their role as watchdog, democracy as we know it will collapse

What the DemSM is saying is you'll never find another love like mine

208 I hate to say it, but it's like October/November 2008 all over again. Limbaugh says McCain isn't good enough, therefore McCain should lose.

And we end up with Obama.

Counter-productive and self-destructive.

It's not Limbaugh's fault as much as it is the folks who follow him like he really is their guru and no deviation from his teachings shall be tolerated.

209 This is what I find attractive about the "he misspoke and should have spoken more cautiously" solution -- it's quick, it's easy, it defends rush against the charge that he wants to America to fail while merely advising him to watch out for how he puts things, then we can move on.

Ace, (1) Rush did not misspeak.  His speech was cut up and decontextualized to fuck him and us up. (2) Given #1 above, the "misspoke" non-defense makes the story (and every story thereafter) all about us apologizing for our truth-telling friends rather than repeating and repeating the truth they are telling.

210 Ace,
   I have read all your posts and comments on this and you have totally lost me here. I have no clue how the hell one statement by Rush Limbaugh of all people warrants this kvetching. Did Coulter's calling Edwards a fag result in all this?

I just wish he had phrased it so as to make sure he was clear he didn't hope AMERICA failed with Obama.

WTF??????? Isn't that a fucking given? How the hell exactly are we supposed to be able to critize Obama if his policies automatically equal america?
It's "hurtful"? So fucking what? How does this warrant people like Frum going off about the "base"? How the hell does this warrant all these damn posts and comments?


Who exactly gives a shit about this and who the hell thinks this will effect one damn election over the next 4 years? Give me a fucking break.
Like this is supposed to be some soul seraching moment or something.

211

I agree with Ace. 

They want us to stay in this wank-fest we're participating in, so as to enervate all of us and distract and exhaust the electorate.

I want Obama's Total Scoiety to be recognized as such and rejected. 

He was enormously popular.  His race; to his advantage both in what could be said and what couldn't.

His numbers are slipping.  Let's help those along.

George Orwell's post on the Otter thread that compared the Fruming of the party to an ultimate choice beteween vultures feeding on the carcass of the Republic should stay with us.

212 One other thing I wanted to say. As someone who doesn't have a "home" here, but enjoys the visiting, I will say that there are times that I roll my eyes and don't even bother to finish reading or post when the topics seem mushy, to me. As far as Patterico is concerned, I found his blg long before this one, and like it. However, right around the elction he got a little too analytical for me. Then, the day after Obama won, I went to his site. Like all of us, I was angry and disgusted. I read his concillatory (almost defeatist) sounding post, and that is the last time I have ever been back. Sorry, but it was the wrong time for that crap IMO. I have also gotten really turned off by Allahpundit, and some of the HA posters, and LGF offends the Hell outta me. I am a typical user of the net, I come on and go to lots of sites. I realize these ppl probably couldn't give a rat's rear about what I think, but I hear my thinking a lot on blog comments. Are we all that feel like this wrong?

213 So your strategy is to let Limbaugh's statement be mis-framed by ignoring the mis-framing persons and the mis-framing entirely.
It's like I three year old 'winning' at  hide'n'seek by covering her eyes.

214 Don't have your co-bloggers post on a subject, and then act dismayed or scornful when the topic is discussed. It's disingenuous.

215

Ace;

You guys are the ones who think this is an issue - taking cue from the media who knowingly picked this and twisted it up beyond recognition. If you have seen the full speech or listened to the original statement or any other statement Rush has made explaining it in simple fucking terms, you wouldn't have any reason to think this is 'difficult to defend'. It isn't. What IS difficult to defend is when the media pretends that this says something different. You can't defend a fucking lie. So, yeah, if you accept the media's outright Big Lie, it can't be defended.

So don't.

The reason we're still discussing this is due to you guys pretending that Rush said and meant what the media has reported. The media, please listen, will always lie about conservatives and misquote conservatives and (this is what happened here) pick a 4 or 5 word quote and twist it - ignoring the context - making a lie to damage conservatives and conservatism.

They are not opponents, they are not neutral, they are not mere antagonists - these are the Enemy. They will always make us look like animals, subhumans, and will constantly try to portray us as evil.

Look, here. I hope Obama is successful in his effort to destroy the US, shred the Constitution, and leave more than half of our population in slavery to the government while throwing productive businesspeople in prison or in mass graves. That's what "I hope Obama is Successful" means.

I hope Obama fails, then.

Do you understand yet?

216 Jesus.  What's next?  Ace on Oprah hugging hobos?

217 You don't have to worry about liberals accusing you of hating America. That is an accusation that is almost exclusively thrown around by the right.

218 Kurt -

That was hurtful.

- Z

219 I hate to say it, but it's like October/November 2008 all over again. Limbaugh says McCain isn't good enough, therefore McCain should lose.

And we end up with Obama.

Please! It doesn't matter who the candidate was for either party. The only way the Democrat would have lost is if he was a terrible candidate ala Dukakis AND the MSM cut him to shit for it. Neither happened so you have Obama. Politics had shit to do with this election.

220

I hate to say it, but it's like October/November 2008 all over again. Limbaugh says McCain isn't good enough, therefore McCain should lose.

McCain was not good enough. That's why he lost.

I get the impression that if I said to you "Don't step out that tenth floor window, or you'll fall", you would step out, and then turn to me as you fell and scream 'This is all your fault!".

221

If your blood pressure is reasonably under control, go over to HA and read Christopher Buckley trying to to justify his voting for Obama because McCain was not a real conservative and because McCain "... nominated as his running mate a know-nothing religious extremist...".

I almost threw my laptop through the window on that one!  Fucking asshole should be punched-out, and then thrown out any story above the 3rd.  What a smelly little turd.

 

222

There's alot about liberal-leftist attacks on Rush, here at Newsbusters.

223 "Is this argument (where people keep going farther and farther because of the insults) bigger than that long and positive history?"

Yes.  All blogs go through lulls, but, well, Itchy and Scratchy appear to have lost their edge.

224 Whether one feels Rush was right or wrong in his comment, the fact is that he is being held to an incredibly high standard. He goes on the radio 10-15 hours a week all by himself. He does interviews. The very nature and volume of his work ensures that he will say controversial things in a less than perfect manner. And holding the opinions he does, the media and the administration are going to point out anything that can be construed as counterproductive. Fine. That's what they do.

But for the life of me, I can't understand why so many on the right want to call him out. You can make the case that he chose his words poorly, or didn't emphasize the context. But my God, this is some really picayune shit. I can't blame the masses (We the Posters) for being upset. This may be about defending Rush for some, but for a lot of us, we can't understand why so many blog owners can't let it go.

Ace is obviously right when he says that Obama wants us talking about this. But the fact is, Joe Moron is not the one who bumps this shit to the top every 90 minutes. Bloggers on the right are keeping this alive, and I can't understand why. Me personally, I think we need a moratorium. No Limbaugh shit for a week. Especially when Obama can be reliably counted on the fuck over some allies, appoint a tax cheat to some Treasury post, and reach out to some shitbag or another who used to be our enemy until 6 weeks ago. And he'll probably do all of that before his weekly Wednesday party. Despite the state of federal leadership and the economy, these should be the salad days for the right-wing blogs (at least content wise). I hope they all take advantage.

225 ...oh, and they all sound vaguely familiar.

226 i just don't see the ultimate upside of the party accepting the debate here, that what we're now going to talk about is whether the GOP wants the economy to fail.

See, that right there is your problem. You are accepting the premise that there is a possibility that the GOP wants the economy to fail.

That is the battle, and you are giving the fucking socialists the cover that that is a possibility, because they are able to pretend that is a reasonable possibility.

Stand the fuck up with the rest of us and defend the truth! Don't cower in fear of being misunderstood.

227

You don't have to worry about liberals accusing you of hating America. That is an accusation that is almost exclusively thrown around by the right.

Sure, expect for every single liberal I've ever come across online.

228 Wow. It's a goddamn bar fight in here. Looks like I picked the wrong week to have a chem test and 2 lab reports due.

First of all, everyone calm down. Everyone- and I do mean everyone- commenting here is on the same team. Let's act like it.

Ace, I hear you- I can appreciate your stance on this even if I don't totally agree with it. You've also had an interesting perspective change in the last couple of  years... I'm not judging it, I'm merely noting it. I think that a lot of conservatives are spoiling for a fight right now, and we/they are fired up enough to fire on anything that disturbs- even tangentially- the equilibrium.

Limbaugh- of whom I am a devoted fan and listener- is a convenient and juicy target for a planned Obama offensive for a couple of reasons. His reputation among his non-listeners is not good, and he is equated- rightly or wrongly- with the face of conservatism. It is no accident that this storm began- pitting conservatives against conservatives. It doesn't matter a whit contextually what was said- the media ran it in a certain direction, kind of like they did with Sarah Palin and SNL.

Ace is correct in saying that we are allowing the media to dictate to us the terms of the discussion. I am not inclined to cede that hill to them, but I would caution those of us who want to fight for that hill to consider what it does or does not mean strategically. Bear in mind that Obama's numbers are not doing well right now, and perhaps a proper response to this media storm is to take a more measured approach. The Dems are doing precisely what they did in 1992- and if we merely grant them the opportunity, they will self-immolate.

Conversely, Ace, I think that discussions of diplomacy (as Patterico himself pointed out) are largely moot when responding to the left. Moot not only because it's dishonest from them, but also because they aren't listening. They've seized upon the Limbaugh remark and their perspective on it as their banner to fly, and any response to the contrary is ignored.

The reason that I would like to fight this one out on this hill is because the spendulus package gave us an opportunity to do exactly that which the media denied us the opportunity to do during the presidential election- define conservatism once again as a responsible, fiscally prudent, pro-US and pro-liberty stance from which Republicanism might derive its governing principles.

By managing to spark this fight right now within conservatism, Obama and his ilk have succeeded in doing that which we laughed at the Dems during Howard Dean- suckering us into fighting a purification jihad amongst ourselves.

So let me wrap this up- guys. we're fighting amongst ourselves, and the only guy who's stepped up to try to lead us has been Limbaugh. I haven't seen Cantor or Boehner out in front enough to be able to speak to their effectiveness. We would do well as a group to not commit fratricide in the interest of purity, and to adopt one specific principle that only Rush and Jindal have stepped up with- the stance of the happy warrior.

Do things suck right now? Absolutely. Which is why everyone- and I do mean everyone- needs to take some sort of optimism- and I do point this at you and at Allah, Ace- about what lies on the other side of this absolute shitstorm we're going to go through right through to 2012, if not further. We as conservatives need to not only undertake the stance that we know what's wrong, and we know how to fix it. A step further than that is to say we sure did screw it up the last time you let us drive, and we've learned from it.

But the single most crucial thing to remind everyone right now is that we are the United States of America- the engine that drives the global economy. We as conservatives can't fix it until you give us the opportunity again, but we sure are excited to have the opportunity again, starting in 2010 with a group of new, fresh, fiscally and defensively conservatives, and socially responsible folks, to put us back in charge of our own destinies.

Then, come 2010, whoever is the standard bearer for our guys needs to be out in front saying "we absolutely cannot wait to get back to work and fix this horrible mess, and then in 2012 we're going to give you candidates who have studied this problem, are thinking about how to avoid future ones, and who are ready, willing, able, and excited to come earn your vote."

But it has to start here- happy warriors who work through their differences, however passionate, to find the unifying force that moves us as a group.

We do not let the other side find ways to divide us- we know how effective it can be, and we must not allow it. We must find our common ground from which we can unify, and from that common ground will be our ability to settle that which we disagree upon.

Ace, Allah, Patterico, and the like- if you can't defend Rush's statements, don't. There are those of us out there who will, and don't betray your principles by trying. Let those of us who believe do that heavy lifting.

And Ace- as your online friend, and as someone who's proud to know you in somewhat real life, I urge you to find things to get excited about with the opportunity that we as conservatives are presented right now. The Chinese symbol for crisis is  a combination of danger and opportunity. We as conservatives- and you are a voice for conservatism- are in danger of becoming irrelevant by our infighting, much as we helped render Democrats irrelevant in 2004. We have the opportunity, conversely, to point out genuine solutions to issues confronting us, and the equal opportunity to continue to punch holes in Obama's/Pelosi's/Reid's master plans, leading to a great bloodletting in 2010 and 2012.

You are the humorous voice of the blogosphere, and your combination of edge, snark, and good fun has been harder to find since just before the election. I beckon you to draw that blade once again- let us return to what made Ace of Spades HQ the great place of security for all conservatives- social, defense, and fiscal, libertarians, moderates, and even the occasional conservative Dem.

Humor and belief that things are genuinely going to get better. It is up to us as the grassroots to be the light that dissipates the darkness, and it can return to us here... through Val-U-Rite, klonopin, Thai tranny hooker porn, and the brash, irreverent attitude that has been replaced by gloom.

We are here to fight, as the great community that is Ace Of Spades HQ- rather than fight each other, let us fight our gloom and start trying to have fun once again. There's plenty to be angry about, and if we stand together, we will win.

It starts here, it starts now.

tmi3rd

229 1) Obama fails, then America fails (and the contrapositive: Obama succeeds, then America succeeds)

Actually, that's the inverse. The contrapositive would be: If America succeeds, then Obama succeeds.

230 C'mon everbody! Let's have a hoedown!

Oh, Lord loves a hangin'.
That's why He gave us necks.
It tightens up our vocal cords
And loosens up our pecs.

So if you are a horse theif
And guilty to the bone,
Go ahead and blame a friend
And you won't hang alone.

It may be hard to swaller,
But you'll be three feet taller.
It's a dandy way to entertain your friends.

You say you are a villain,
But can't abide by killin';
Go ahead a steal yourself a horse.

Oh, Lord loves a hangin'.
And so do we, by heck;
So get yerself a lasso
And decorate your neck.

Oh, we is awful ignorant
And uglier 'n sin;
So go ahead 'n cut us down
And hang us all again,

Hangin' that is. Swing a spell...

231 If your blood pressure is reasonably under control, go over to HA and read Christopher Buckley trying to to justify his voting for Obama because McCain was not a real conservative and because McCain "... nominated as his running mate a know-nothing religious extremist...".

Are you sure this is legit? It smells like another iowahawk parody to me.

232

Ace, my friend. It's a lesson learned. You will be the better for having participated.

Life is all about the learning; you'll see.

233

The whole "I hope he fails" thing just put the question before the court as it were.

It does.  No matter how the MSM portrays this, any sentient being with a pulse  knows that Rush does not want the country to fail just to get O.  No matter what they say, they know it isn't true.  On the other hand, there are lots of people who are purple with rage when they see what this guy is doing.  And  when  the crazies have lost their jobs and it occurs to them that this guy spent a trillion in pork, when everyone is going broke? They will see blood too.  Besides all that Rush is telling it like he sees it, something conservatives should always do.

Rush has truly put the issue before the court, and I'm betting on Rush.

(Sura 2:29)

234 Man, oh man, this is good slushie. I think that what many commenters here are reacting against is the whole sentimental "hurtful" aspect of this argument. I for one am weary of  how the Left makes it points by trotting out a "victim" or two to regale us with their tale of woe and misery.

Those that would be hurt by the idea of wishing Obama to fail are beyond help..they are simply irrational. Screw them.

Ace, do yourself a favor and let it go. Have some Valu-u-rite vodka, sharpen a few knives and realize under Obama, hoboes and vagrants will increase to unheard of levels. The hunting will be superb!

Can we haz a Watchmen thread nao, plz?

235 BTW, folks, sorry for the Papal Invective- length post.

tmi3rd

236 I don't have time to read all the comments here right now, but just skimming a bit, looks like a very good discussion.

I just want to add that when Obama was elected, everyone started talking about how they hope he succeeds.  That is, all the Republicans did.

And I assumed that was a sort of good sportsmanship thing you say at the beginning.

But inside, I was thinking, "What?  If he succeeds at what he wants, you won't even recognize the U.S.!  I hope he fails!"

Then come to find out later on that Rush had the same thoughts.

I wouldn't put too much stock in what the liberals make of it.  They want to lie about it, that's their business.  Me, I still think that, and I'll keep thinking that until Obama stops destroying the country. 

237

Obama is not America. Obama is not the King.

Assuming that wanting Obama to fail in his dangerous desires is the same as wanting America to fail is the conclusion of someone who thinks that Obama is a King.

The USA is not Arrakis.  Obama is not a hugely segmented man-worm-creature with the power of Spice.  Obama is not the God Emperor.

Assuming his failure would blight out land, that He is the same as America, is giving him Leto-like standing. He is not America, America is not Arrakis.

Obama is not God. Not King. Not a Prince, nor an Emperor, nor a dictator - yet. Giving into the media's worship of Obama, their association of him and the Land as One - is pretending that Obama has Dominion and is King/God/Parent/Father/Mother/Redeemer.

He isn't. He's a putz.

238 tmi3rd - What you said.

239 When so-called conservatives are pissing and moaning like a bunch of pre-hormonal girls on the AOS blog, we know we're fucked.  You can't even take this one little sentence from Rush w/o bending over?  Holy Freepin Christmas. 

Buncha friggin' French surrender monkeys.

240 217 You don't have to worry about liberals accusing you of hating America. That is an accusation that is almost exclusively thrown around by the right.

Posted by: Killer at March 08, 2009 06:44 PM (ov7+x)

You don't have to worry about us constantly acting defensive over whether we're patriotic or not (without it having even been brought up) - that is almost exclusively done by the left.

241 Oh and I forgot:

"Hurtful"? WTF? Man up, nancy! Come on now. Have a nice cup of chamomile tea, put your feet up, forget all about the bad scary Limbaugh man. He's not going to climb through your window and get you. I'm almost pretty sure.

242

Bloggers on the right are keeping this alive, and I can't understand why.

That's the odd thing. Virtually eveyone I see accusing Rush of "wanting the US economy to fail" or of "seeming to want the US economy to fail' is on the right.

The Democrats have some people so damn whipped than any time one of us says something that the Democrats might possibly spin in a bad way, a ton of Republicans jump on the offender to get ahead of what they imagine the new consensus to be.

Nobody on our side should EVER repeat the Democratic spin.

243 "The Chinese symbol for crisis is a combination of danger and opportunity."

Please help stamp out this falsehood wherever found. You make good points, but don't use that cliche', please?

244 Notropis-

My apologies. I stand corrected. I hope you take my post in the spirit it was intended.

tmi3rd

245 Inspector Asshole (237) -- great comment

246

Well, good for you. The problem is that it won't be the last word from the Frums/Brooks Axis of Whoredom. Granted, no one gives a shit what incoherence they spew anymore, but as we move on some media Obamatute will give them a new op/ed on how horrible Rush is. Or corporations. Or whoever happens to be the Left's demon of the moment. I can't believe you bought into this shit.

I am glad to have more faith in the American people than you. This was nonsense, and they will see it as such when then open their next 401k and the economic illiterate who inhabits the White Houses isn't a media personality. Strike that last--a radio personality.

247 It was a helpful remark. It's been clarifying for conservatives. It's also outed Begala, Carville, Emmanuel and King Snake as Machiavels. Ya' know, Rush has had their numbers for years--maybe they're blinded by revenge. Maybe they only think they're winning the PR battle when in fact, they are losing. Just because they bash Rush with a ...truncated...Dowdism doesn't mean it's not backfiring on them. Has the Media has declared them winners? Why would we take the Media's word on how we should take the Media's word?

It has also been helpful by alerting apoliticals and moderates that there is another view out there besides the Adoration of the Blessesd Kenyan. They'll be looking for another path in short order.

248 Needless to say, I agree 100% with Ace and said as much at length on another thread. 

And we all know how that went.

But whatever, he's right.

249 Hate to rain on your parade, but the MSM will block out ANYTHING that makes their man look bad.  They are 'the deciders'.  If they don't report it, it did not happen.

Love him or hate him, Limbaugh is making the press and the president listen to him.  This will make others, who normally just get their 'news' from the boob tube, listen in as well.

They may well regret even mentioning Limbaugh.

250 When's Lileks going to post that screed?  I've had an erection for like 4 days and I'm going to have to see a doctor soon.

251 #242 - exactly

252 A friend made an interesting remark to me...

"Funny how apropos Lord Of The Rings is in real life... Mordor wins as much by inspiring despair as by its actual forces."

He went on to say that Frum reminds him painfully of Wormtongue.

Someone out there's thinking a hell of a lot about this.

I think my friend is on to something there...

tmi3rd

253

Who won the bailout argument (in the end)?

254 And by the way, thanks, Z as in Jersey.

tmi3rd

255 Frum probably wants to expand the party by attracting moderates or somehing stupid thing like that.

256

62 Rush saying "I hope he [Obama] fails" does not equal "I hope America fails."  Anyone who believes otherwise is deliberately distorting.  Period.

And they need to be called on it. I don't know who Frum or Patterico or this Crunchy Con idiot is and I don't really care. People either like Rush or they don't.

257 Four fucking posts on this and STILL no Watchmen thread

more Watchmen

258 this whole argument is retarded.  Its like two people arguing over how to get to Kansas City, but one is talking about coming from LA and the other NYC. 

The two things arent mutually exclusive.  We can present things better without sacrificing principles.  Presenting things better does not mean acquiescing.  And hitting them hard doesnt mean alienating, vitriolic acts.  Its not that fuckin complicated.

Could Rush have said it better?  perhaps, but that isnt his fault.  its the media's for taking it way out of context.  we know that.  we should expect that.  if they throw b.s. at us, and not just this subject but any, turn it around and hammer the fuck outta them.  routinely pointing out hard facts humiliates them and demonstrates them to be liars, imbeciles, etc.  If they distort like with Rush, we point out their distortion, their targeting of private citizens, and call em on it.  If they call us nazis, we point out the similarities between the nazis and the libtards.  If they call us anti-environment, we point out that more co2 and some warming is better for plant life, and by increasing crop yields, reduce world hunger.  See, by phrasing it better, we can hit harder with more effective statements.  Meanwhile we use every insipid statement or action they did against them.  We dont need scary voice-overs when their own statements and actions should be scary enough.  All the mush-brained members of retardia that we are forced to win over each election cycle have a herd mentality and dont want to be part of the group that looks stupid.  or uncool.  or whatever negative adjective.  Regardless of policy, McCain looked idiotic.  So he lost.  It's appearance.  It's presentation.  It's marketing.  Not that fuckin complicated.  Currently, the Dems are better at it because the Republican Party is comprised of morons and seppuku candidates.  And that is what should piss everyone off.  And it should motivate everyone to do something about it.  Not this dopey bullshit. 

I know everyone here is passionate about the conservative cause.  We all agree on the same goals.  This isnt compromising policy or principles.  We can incorporate the different positions by not pulling punches, not punching aimlessly, and not being distracted.  Fight like Ali.  Hit em, hit em where it hurts, and screw with their mind without letting them do it to us.

259 David Frum: The New Minority. By the way, I found this link from noted conservative bomb thrower, Glenn Reynolds.

260

Frum probably wants to expand the party by attracting moderates or somehing stupid thing like that.

Frum and his ilk have been running the party for several years now. If we get much more of their idea of "expanding the party", the entire GOP Congressional delegation will be able to meet in a broom closet.

261 #242  Yeah, good observation.  Although that dem governer on Fox News this morning dropped it on Mike Wallace during his interview segment.  You could tell his heart wasn't in it.   When Mike Wallace called him on it he looked relieved the interview was over.

262

"Of course it's hurtful -- witness the Dems' and the MSM's glee in repeating and rehashing it."

that is not proof that it's a harmful statement, that only proves what we already know, the MSM hates Rush Limbaugh and will take any opportunity to trash him, when this dies down they'll find something else to trash him for. 

263

Frum probably wants to expand the party by attracting moderates or somehing stupid thing like that.

Well, he is an asshole.

Your point?

264

this whole argument is retarded.  Its like two people arguing over how to get to Kansas City, but one is talking about coming from LA and the other NYC. 

That's not the argment. Frum and his people don't want to get to KC, they want to get to Boise. No offense to any morons in Boise.

265 Here's a fantastic analysis that lays out what we're up against and provides a "toolbox" of ideas so we can fight against it:

http://tinyurl.com/clo9c4

Whether you all agree with every one of the conclusions drawn in that report is not relevant and I think is a waste of time and energy.  I think the general premises are right on target and I humbly submit that we should take it for what it's worth and use what we can in this analysis to fight back and prepare for the future.

266 Frum probably wants to expand the party by attracting moderates or somehing stupid thing like that.

Frum's experience in this area comes from working as a speechwriter for George Bush.  Apparently the left thinks we need more of that . . .

267

"Frum probably wants to expand the party by attracting moderates or something stupid thing like that.

Well, he is an asshole.

Your point?"

That is probably why he and others like Brooks are attacking Limbaugh, to try and move the party into the mainstream, so as to attract people in the middle of the political spectrum.

268 I want to recommend my "anti-stimulus plan."  Set up a direct deposit beginning April 1st that sends at least $13 directly to savings, where it will not be touched.  Obama has begged us to not "stuff our mattresses," so that's precisely what we should do.

269

GarandFan - I have a 1944 M1 Garand Springfield Armory, It's one hell of a weapon.

270

That is probably why he and others like Brooks are attacking Limbaugh, to try and move the party into the mainstream, so as to attract people in the middle of the political spectrum.

Bush and McCain were in the "middle of the political spectrum", you goober. Or the left of it in many cases.

271 That is probably why he and others like Brooks are attacking Limbaugh, to try and move the party into the mainstream

I find that implying your party is filled with a bunch of people you'd be pissed to have to talk to at your next cocktail party is a great way to attract newcomers.

272 shooey, you can't wish it not-harmful. It is harmful. It's like saying "I wish I could use the word 'niggardly' in every day life. It's a good word!" but unfortunately using it as a politician will never help you. Unless the KKK makes a huge resurgence.

Stop arguing that the sky isn't blue, and move on.

I have an idea, let's talk about the Gordon snub, and how retarded it makes Obama look. It makes him look loads retarded.

273 i>So let's turn the page and move on.

Like -- how about we fucking talk about the stuff Obama does not wanting us talking about?

Would be nice if Allah didn't link in the headlines every single blog post known to man on the very subject. Allah loves to gasoline the fire.

274 What I learned from our primaries on the Dem side is never ever apologize when they take something and twist it, or even magnify it or what have you..

As a Hillary supporter we were called racist daily. Hill was threatened to get out by her own party twho had their messiah daily We were told we were hurting the party by staying in. When Hill said hey RFK didnt  get killed until June, meaning why should she wrap it up in April, well yeah it was incredibly hamhanded but she didnt mean to infer he should or would be killed, which is what our party claimed

they spent the entire race making her apologize for even running

I voted for MAC and I listen to Rush every day now and I like Ann Coulter and MM now too, and I voted DEM for 20 years. This primary forced me to examine my assumptions about our party being fair and open

My party was totally racist in claiming Hill was racist, race cards every frakkin place and everry time we were ahead they would go FIND something Hill or Bill or Bob Johnsnon or Gerry Ferarro or anybody tangentially related to the campaign to get us off balance and defensive and eating each other alive

alinsky 101, please dont let it consume the time that could be used focusing 
on the pork filled crap they want to pass this week

IMO as a moderate, gasp, former lib Dem who now votes GOP,t he wrost thing you can do is apologize or display any embarrassment about anyone in the aprty be it a group of 'rednecks' or Rush or whomever the idiot media is targeting that day..

MAC should have fought harder and come out swining in debates. Hillary found her fighter too late. Dont listen to polls and 'experts', fight, Americans want to believe and want to fight for what we believe we are and should be

Rush is a fighter let him do what he does

275 "I find that implying your party is filled with a bunch of people you'd be pissed to have to talk to at your next cocktail party is a great way to attract newcomers."

I was just speculating as to their motivation, not suggesting that it will work.

276 I wasnt talking about frum.  I was talking about ace/patterico/etc.  Like I said on the previous post:
 "Meanwhle, Frumpy et al. can kiss our individualistic asses b/c what he and his ilk are acting like regarding Obama is identical to those who expect to win the lottery to fund their remaining years.  It's been patently obvious ever since Benito Moses first hit the public eye that though he may attempt a more moderate appearance, his word selection was steeped in Marxism.  Sure we can hope Obama changes into a Reagan, or even something palatable.  But it aint gonna happen, just like winning a big lottery jackpot...  And counting on it is imbecilic."

my point is that we here are all arguing about the same destination - victory for the political beliefs we all here share.

what I got out of patterico/ace/etc. was that our arguments could be done more effectively.

277 So David Frum is the leader of the Republican Party?

278

<i>That is probably why he and others like Brooks are attacking Limbaugh, to try and move the party into the mainstream, so as to attract people in the middle of the political spectrum.
</i>

 

Holy Fuck. These were the same geniuses who gave us Bush and Compassionate Conservatism. That's why they have to self-immolate on cue for the left-wing to grab our attention.

279 You guys are all totally missing the point. Ace is saying that it is stupid to be drawn into arguing about this whole kerfuffle one way or the other.

The Obamites are just cheering that so many of you want to obsess over something Limbaugh said instead of spending the time focusing on exposing what Obama's doing to the country.

You want to split the GOP into little warring factions over something as stupid as this?

counter-productive and self-destructive

280 "These were the same geniuses who gave us Bush and Compassionate Conservatism."

You mean the guy who won two terms.

281

#135

exactly, everyone is telling me we don't have time for this or we don't have time for that.

there is always time to get things right

282

Wow.  We really got off track in this debate.

TWO distinct issues duct-taped together by MSM: Steele as Chairman and Rush.

Steele is bad. He choked on questions ASIDE from Rush. He let CHUCK D get the high road on racial issues, for cripes sake.

But now, when his poser ass is kicked out, it's all about Rush. They outflanked on this one.

 

283 And the creeps like Brooks, Buckley, Noonan, Parker, Brookheiser, et al? Quit giving them any attention at all. Let them wither and die as pathetic shells in the corner.

They proved themselves to be useful idiots for Marxist tools. Who gives a damn about anything they ever say or write ever again?

284

You know, Bill Ayers was and is a pretty darn hard guy to defend. About several trillion times more hard to defend than Rush Limbaugh.

And yet, in all my arguments with liberals on the internet I never encountered a single one willing to say a bad word about Ayers. They simply will not badmouth one of ther own, no matter how much it is deserved.

I'm not saying we need to go to quite the extreme they do here. I think a Republican Bill Ayers should be condemed by Republicans.. But the Republican weakness is this desperate urge to think that the way to politcal power is to constantly take swipes at other people on the right.

You can't get a Democrat to say a bad word about a monster, and you can't get Republicans to stop trashing each other.

285

Yeah, the guy who left the GOP in shambles. That one.

It's why Brooks and Frum are jokes everywhere except liberal editorial boards.

286

Shorter Ace:

"I was completely wrong about this and I just can't admit it."

 

It's ok, buddy. Apology accepted. Now let's get after Obama and the other socialists.

287

Yeah, I get what he means... I just wish he had phrased it so as to make sure he was clear he didn't hope AMERICA failed with Obama. Even though that seems to be a hard scenario to imagine.

What the hell are you talking about? Do you even listen to Rush? The more I read of this BS, on here and HA, the more I'm convinced you don't. I think Rush has repeated a couple of hundred times that HE DOESN'T WANT AMERICA, OR IT'S ECONOMY TO FAIL, (why the hell should he, having invested, just like us common schnerds, in the market?)  but that HE WANTS OBAMA, AND HIS OBVIOUS ATTEMPT TO DESTROY CAPITALISM, TO FAIL.

Hey, sorry for the caps, but  it seems, aside from screaming, nothing's  sinking in in blog land.  If that's  somehow too  lowbrow, for ya Ace, I apologize.

288

You guys are all totally missing the point. Ace is saying that it is stupid to be drawn into arguing about this whole kerfuffle one way or the other.

And we're saying that Ace is a total fucking hypocrite because he's the one making the big deal of this. Count the posts on this matter on the site.

289

That is probably why he and others like Brooks are attacking Limbaugh, to try and move the party into the mainstream, so as to attract people in the middle of the political spectrum.

There are very few in the middle of the political spectrum and we Conservatives do not move towards a shifting Pop Culture mainstream. Our beliefs are who we are, there is no compromise.

290 Easy enough to put an end to this.Until the media misconstrues another statement by a conservative and we dare not discuss it because we are "wrong".

291 >>"You've got to want the president to succeed," said the former House Speaker. "You're irrational if you don't want the president to succeed. Because if he doesn't succeed the country doesn't succeed... I don't think anyone should want the president of the United States to fail. I want some of his policies to be stopped. But I don't want the president of the United States to fail. I want him to learn new policies."

Newt Gingrich speaking on MTP today. It's not us keeping this alive.

Instead of taking the opportunity to point out that what he is saying is basically exactly what Limbaugh said, he tosses him under the bus. Fucking marvelous.

This isn't a political party it's a 8th grade class of girls.

292

You mean the guy who won two terms.

Posted by: Killer at March 08, 2009 07:29 PM (ov7+x)

And made the GOP toxic in 2006 & 2008 (with the help of his moderate friends).

293 #284. Precisely. That's the larger issue here. The only reason to condemn even Brooks and Frum is because they are clueless about this little reality. I would claim them as bestest buddies but/for that problem.

294

You mean the guy who won two terms.

That's the one. The guy who left the Republican Party a smoking ruin.  The guy who, on domestic policy, acted like Ted Kennedys arm was up his ass.

295 # 106

Ace, that is simply nonsense. The whole point is that the Obama administrations policies are pretty much guaranteed to make things worse. A lot worse.

Wanting that to fail isn't seeking disaster for the winning of political points. It's trying to avert disaster by drawing attention to bad policy decision and general intent. I suspect polling would show that fewer than 30% of Americans can identify the name Keynes in regard to economics or have any knowledge of the sorry history of when those policies have been attempted in real life. But nearly all Americans have been spoonfed their entire lives the story that Roosevelt and his policies pulled us out of the Depression, even though it is demonstrably false.

So this scandal that never should have been deserves more play, even if that is what Obama wanted. The trick is to turn it against them. Get the story out why Obama policies are not intended to fix things, at least not in the way most people would interpet that. The Useful Idiots who helped get him elected and are now expressing regrets should be exploited to their maximum value.

Obama is not America. Remember, the running theme out of the left in recent years? How anything bad in the news would get grossly overinflated and sometimes simply just made up? Because, as you yourself noted on at least one occasion, bad news for America was good news for the left. They actively wanted America to fail in numerous ways so they could have things their way. Now that they've been given almost total control, they're making failure a way of life any Soviet leader would admire.

You can at least take comfort in that you aren't likely to be identified as a Kulak under this regime. You've got the blog and may get in trouble for that but not enough personal wealth to be attacked on the land-owner basis.

It seems to me the during the previous eight years we managed to find time for matters both minor and major. Worked for me. It could perhaps be argued that minor items prevented the major ones from being handled sufficiently to stop us from reaching our present position but the essential defects in the Bush administration and the general wimpiness of the GOP had more to do with that, I'd say.

That brings me back to Limbaugh. You might recall when Obama said the GOP shouldn't listen to Rush Limbaugh. Limbaugh's entirely correct reply to this was that they hadn't been listening to him. If they had they'd have not lost the Oval Office and numerous seats in Congress.

If people want to claim shock that Limbaugh would hope for a US President's failure, use that as an opportunity to explain why this is important.

296

Ace you voted for Clinton twice ? Really? Even after the contract with America? So I'll take it during this time you also voted for Dems in the House and Senate across the board.

 So what your saying is your a Charles Johnson conservative.

Great, just fuckin' great.

297

You guys say you want to oppose everything Obama does -- how about starting by opposing the menu of conversation topics he's cooked up for you?

You first.

298 That was the stupididest thing Newt has done ever with the exception of that global warming commercial with Pelosi.Dick.

299

"I don't want the president of the United States to fail. I want him to learn new policies."

Whatever the intelligence-eating virus is thats stalking the land, I see Newt has succumbed to it.

300

And we're saying that Ace is a total fucking hypocrite because he's the one making the big deal of this. Count the posts on this matter on the site.

You're pretty bold. Or Ace is pretty humble.

Either way, I wouldn't come into your house and shit on your carpet.

301 Newt Gingrich speaking on MTP today. It's not us keeping this alive.

Instead of taking the opportunity to point out that what he is saying is basically exactly what Limbaugh said, he tosses him under the bus. Fucking marvelous.

This isn't a political party it's a 8th grade class of girls.

Posted by: JackStraw at March 08, 2009 07:41 PM (EVewz)

-

"As I was saying...", Part 4,169 -- we should not put Gingrich in a leadership position again.

I was expecting more from Steele, though.

302 Newt Gingrich speaking on MTP today. It's not us keeping this alive.

Instead of taking the opportunity to point out that what he is saying is basically exactly what Limbaugh said, he tosses him under the bus. Fucking marvelous.

This isn't a political party it's a 8th grade class of girls.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 08, 2009 07:41 PM (EVewz)



Perhaps it's been worth it after all, if it got Gingrich to reveal himself for the little bitch that he is.

The whole "Gingrich 2012" movement has me sick to my stomach. I can't think of a worse person to have as a nominee then or ever, frankly.

303

#180

which why we have start fighting with everything we have right now

304 #137

Tough. Get over it. The economy going through severe years is the price we pay for having screwed things up in the previous eight years.

The choice is this. A few really bad years or permanent enshrined policies that make things bad but not quite as bad, for the rest of our lives.

Would you rather take one bad beating and be back on your feet in a week or have a guy randomly punch you every day for a year?

305 Gingrich revealed enough of himself in 1996/1997.

I loved the 1994 Newt Gingrich, but we just need to face facts that that guy doesn't exist anymore.

306 No problem, moving on. (didn't I suggest that a week ago?)

What do we do about the endless media blackouts and  spinning to obscure the fact the the market tanks every time Capt. Multitasking Lightbringer speaks?

The media is actively and unabashedly working against us to epic levels these days. I thought that the campaign was historic for this lows the media had sunken to, but they have eclipsed themselves since inauguration day.

Speaking of which, how about we start referring to Inauguration Day 2009 as Black Tuesday, instead? (all puns and connotations implicitly implied... h/t to Eric Holder)

307

Either way, I wouldn't come into your house and shit on your carpet.

 

I agree we should totally kiss Ace's ass and not call him on his bullshit. Hell we can even start calling this place Little Green Football's

308 "WE WANT AMERICA TO SLIDE INTO A DEPRESSION BECAUSE THESE POLICIES ARE MORALLY WRONG AND MUST BE REPUDIATED."

Ace, I know you don't want to have the above to be the National Slogan, so let's start saying this:

"THESE [OBAMA'S] POLICIES ARE MORALLY WRONG AND MUST BE REPUDIATED, ELSE AMERICA WILL TO SLIDE INTO A DEPRESSION."

Followed up with (God willing that it doesn't happen):

"[Decribe the current effect that is leading us towards a Depression here.]  [Describe the Obama Policy that caused that effect here, tying them together and pointing it that it's Obama's Policy.]  THESE [OBAMA'S] POLICIES MUST BE REVERSED BY [Insert reversal method here, if not too late.]

Now, for the love of Christ and all that is good and true, please tell us how and where to go to bring this to the attention of the American people, without the Deciders filtering it for us?

309 Ace,

You are the proprietor of the most obscenity-laced blog on the right (that I know of). Your po-faced maunderings about Limbaugh's "incautious" remarks are hilarious to any regular reader of your blog. Thoughtful, Dignified Journalist Pondering the Future of the Republican Party is not you. Go back to your tranny whores and your booze--be yourself!

310

You're pretty bold. Or Ace is pretty humble.

Or I'm telling the truth, the same truth which a few dozen other people have already pointed out. If Ace wants us to "stop talking about what Obama wants us to talk about", then why the fuck is he talking about it endlessly?

I wouldn't come into your house and shit on your carpet.

No, you would not. But I'm not in anyones house but my own. And I'm not shitting on anyones carpet, I'm pointing out the aburdity of what Ace is saying.

This not being LGF, I guess that's still allowed.

311 I posted this on another thread, thinking this one had died an hour before. Silly me, I forgot about the hour's difference in time stamps. Anyhow, I'll post it here, where it belongs:

Can we please have a post where we morons get to suggest thread topics related to taking the fight to the dems?

As an example, we should be sowing internal division in their ranks, not ours. Here in NE PA, we have an attempt to build a wind farm being thwarted by the local NIMBYs. If we can't get dems to join us, can we at least get them to fight each other? As the greens fight the NIMBYs, we could then identify the most reasonable individuals and try to pick them off. Or just troll them, trying to exacerbate their internal tensions. Anything that hurts them helps us ...

You people are smarter than I am. Surely you all can think of other strategeries, and the posters here (when they are sober) can then run with any suggestions that make sense.

And we can save the insults for the important threads - the flame wars.

P.S. Since no one else will say it: cockholster.

312 By the way, is the only Frum booster I've even come across actually a conservative?

Hawk doesn't equal conservative.  Hawk simply equals hawk.

313

I haven't read the posts above so if I am repeating something posted forgive me.

I was getting divorced and a friend said don't underestimate them.  They know more than they let on.  Soo true!

THE ONE does nothing without and agenda.

He is a socialist trying to take over the country.

BE VERY AFRAID!

Kemp

314

All this misses the main point, namely a lack of conservative Republican leadership.  Rush stepped-up to fill a void.  Who are we supposed to follow -- McCain, Grahamesty, and the other great moderates who lost the last election?

Rush is flushing out the moderates and pushing them to the right.  God bless him.

315 Rush is flushing out the moderates and pushing them to the right.  God bless him.

Correct. Rush is not trying to lead. He's certainly made that point enough times before.

He is more like the party theoretician. The communist party used to have an official position like that, I believe. Rush simply serves as a de facto party theoretician/theologian/philosopher because no one else does the job so well.

316 Can we see some cheesecake now?

317 The reason I fully support Rush's "I hope Obama fails" remark is because it needed to be said. I said basically the same thing in a post the day after the election. We conservatives who have been paying attention know what Obama  is. We know he's an appeaser who's moving the country headfirst into a European style Socialism, and we. do. not. want.

I thought it was sickening to hear other conservatives wishing him success in that endeavor...even Sean Hannity was saying that he hoped Obama would succeed. We conservatives all know, that Obama's goals are not what we would want for the country. But some sort of PC paralysis was causing them to say these disingenuous things.

Well, Rush is like Ann Coulter, in this regard. He threw a bomb, like she so often does....like she did with the Jersey girls for instance. Everyone was oh so offended that she would attack those 9/11 widows like she did. But guess what? Once she questioned their "absolute moral authority", pretty much everyone did. Ultimately, she won the argument because the truth was on her side.

Same thing with Rush. What he says is true. And in time more and more people will realize it. "I hope Obama Fails" wasn't "poor quality red meat". It needed to be said. The last thing we need is other conservatives backing away from him as if he shit in the punchbowl.

Frum's the one shitting in the punchbowl.

318 Ace thinks "knife-fight" is a literary allusion.
He's a wordsmith. Sadly, nothing more. 

319 >>"You've got to want the president to succeed," said the former House Speaker. "You're irrational if you don't want the president to succeed. Because if he doesn't succeed the country doesn't succeed... I don't think anyone should want the president of the United States to fail. I want some of his policies to be stopped. But I don't want the president of the United States to fail. I want him to learn new policies."

Newt Gingrich speaking on MTP today. It's not us keeping this alive.

OMG, Jackstraw. That was NOT helpful! And to think I actually thought Gingrich would make a better RNC Chairman than Steele.

I give up!

320 302 Newt Gingrich speaking on MTP today. It's not us keeping this alive.

Instead of taking the opportunity to point out that what he is saying is basically exactly what Limbaugh said, he tosses him under the bus. Fucking marvelous.

This isn't a political party it's a 8th grade class of girls.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 08, 2009 07:41 PM (EVewz)

Newt accepted the left's premise on global warming some time ago, so it would be no surprise if he accepted the left's premise on Limbaugh. 

Stick a fork in Newt as any kind of conservative/GOP leader.

321 You know how we're freezing failure in place by bailing out everybody? We NEED to have this debate among ourselves and then the country--that's why I say Rush's remarks were helpful.

btw; didn't the Left Googlebomb Bush as "miserable failure in '03 and even after he won re-election? guess they wanted America to fail. Come to think of it, unlike us, they really did.

Wanna change the subject? Here you go:

HILLARY: I wanted to present you...this represents what President Obama and Vice President Biden and I have been saying, and that is, we want to...'reset'...our...relationship. So we'll do it together.
LAVROV: "Biden"? You mean "Joe Biden"? Are you serious, lady? Okay, whatever. Thank you very much. (camera shutters clicking)
HILLARY: You're very welcome! We worked hard to get the right Russian word. Do you think we got it?
LAVROV: You got it wrong.
HILLARY: I've gotten it wrong? (nervous cackle)
LAVROV: It should be "perezagruzka."
HILLARY: But we worked so hard on it--could you grade us on a curve so nobody's feelings get hurt?
LAVROV: Nyet. And this is says "peregruzka," means "overcharge."
HILLARY: Well, we won't let you do that to us, I promise!
LAVROV: No, not like "money"--like a power overload.
HILLARY: Oh.
LAVROV: Don't worry about it--we had same mix-up at Chernobyl.
HILLARY: Sorry; nobody at State speaks Russian anymore since Condi left. But if you need a 12-person Rapid-Deployment Sexual Harassment Team, we've got dozens of those.
LAVROV: No thanks. What does this "reset button" mean, anyway?
HILLARY: It's just our way of saying to authoritarians and thugs everywhere "We mean you no harm!"
LAVROV: We already figure that out.
HILLARY: I prepared for our meeting. I watched "White Nights" with Baryshnikov and Gregory Hines...twice! And "Reds" with Warren Beatty.
LAVROV: Who?
HILLARY: Yeah--that's what everybody says.
LAVROV: I have an award for you; Order of Lenin.
HILLARY: No, thanks--I already got one at Wellesley.
LAVROV: You know those snipers on the tarmac in Bosnia?
HILLARY: Yes?
LAVROV: That was us. But you weren't target. It was Sinbad. He's just not funny.
HILLARY: Tell me about it.
LAVROV: *(silence)*
HILLARY: *(silence)*
LAVROV: You know, you should really give it up.
HILLARY: Give up what?
LAVROV: This whole "We're not Bush! We're not Bush!"-thing. It's childish. We're Russians. We don't give a damn. What else did you bring me besides this stupid button?
HILLARY: Would you like Gordon Brown's 25-pack of American movies? It turns out they won't play in British DVD-players. If you want, you can return them to Wal-Mart and get the money.
LAVROV: Okay. Thank you very much. (camera shutters clicking) That's better. What did you finally get for Prime Minister Brown, anyway?
HILLARY: Well, he gave us the original Magna Carta, so we wanted to do something really special for him. So we named a star after him at Star Chancellory.com.
LAVROV: He'll never see it; he has vision problems.
HILLARY: He does?
LAVROV: Da.
HILLARY: That's okay--his star name is recorded in book form in some bureaucrat's office somewhere--isn't that exciting?
LAVROV: If you say so.
HILLARY: But wait, there's more; we also gave him some Sham-Wows--and we even paid the shipping and handling!
LAVROV: So, it's true--you really did once write off your husband's used underwear as a tax deduction.
HILLARY: Better a tax write-off than moldering in some evidence locker somewhere. Besides, Sham-Wows are great!
LAVROV: Yes--we used them at Chernobyl. Would you like one? We offered them to Iran as reactor fuel but they said they had plenty already.
HILLARY: Thank you so much. Would you like a bust of Churchill?
LAVROV: It's very kind of you. It will be on my desk. Before I put it in the trash.
HILLARY: And, Yuri...
LAVROV: Yes, Hildavitch?
HILLARY: Thanks for helping us get rid of that awful, provocative and aggressive Missile Shield.
LAVROV: Don't mention it, Hildavitch.
HILLARY: I won't if you won't!

322 The last time someone said, "L'etat, c'est moi," they wound up guillotined.

Obama (or his supporters, or Gingrich, Patterico, Hannity, et al) has successfully identified himself, his policies, and the United States of America as one and the same. This is a HUGE propaganda victory for them, and an utter defeat for us. We must fight this perverse notion like rabid dogs.

Nice Deb: Ace has closed discussion on his site of a vital topic. It is his property, and we must respect his decision. However, I think we must continue that discussion  - on your site, or wherever we can.

323 Ace: "Are you of the Body? May you know the Peace of Landrew."

Rush: "Nuts!"

324 Ace has closed discussion on his site of a vital topic

Which one?

325 3) We should move on to more important hill

I see about half the commenters here saying "yeah, move on"...as they comment on this thread. Don't want to talk about it, IGNORE THE THREAD!

As for me, I see the above quote tantamount to saying; "This hill is lost, our tactics have been defeated, we are outclassed, out gunned, and our army is in a shambles. There is no point trying a different tactic, let's just keep doing what has caused us to lose the last 100 battles. We must ignore any discussion of how to win the battles, just keep shooting our arrows at the artillery emplacements, regardless of our staggering losses and lost ground. Attack!Attack! Banzi Charge on that hill over there!"

News Flash. We no longer have an army to field. Ace and Patternico telling us guerrilla tactics are wrong and hurtful misses the point. We can't win back ground fighting on the enemy's terms. We have to learn to turn their strengths against them, or continued defeat is certain, regardless what hill you choose to die on.   

326 I think a lot of the conservatives who initially said they hoped Obama would "succeed" were trying to be gracious -- instead of sore winner crybabies like the leftards who pitched a bitch each time Bush won -- and that they were saying that they hoped Obama would be a good president despite their own doubts about his ability to run the country. They weren't (well, not all of them) saying that they now supported his plans -- they were hoping that as the reality of his position sank in he'd realize many of the grandiose promises he and his followers made were unworkable and he'd drop them. Obviously he's crapped all over that idea since the election and now it's obvious he's going to be a lousy president.

327 The media is trying to stomp on Rush he can defend himself no doubt, but I will stand with him. In a time when we should have leadership we don't. Not Rush's fault and not our fault, but msm would love us to turn on Rush and flog him. I for one will not, Rush stands for us and communicates optimism and truth for the last 2 decades, no one I repeat no one has even come close. The left would love to close the book on Rush, he is their greatest threat and I am sure they feel if they demonize him enough we might turn our backs. You can, but I will not.

328 "You guys...you guys...you guys."

Feh. Get over yourself, human.

329

last thing from me,

they target Rush we get mad, most of us like Rush but he's just a guy on the radio.

you talk to us everyday, you allow us to fight with you and you don't ban us, when they come after you, i won't just be mad, i will turn into screaming, howling tasmainian devil that will haunt and harrass your accusers until they until they are a wimpering shell of their former selves.

count on it

 

330 ...you talk to us everyday, you allow us to fight with you and you don't ban us,...

Amazingly, Ace doesn't seem to really mind shitting on his carpet either.

331 Okay, you made your point, and now we can all go ahead and put this behind us. The Lame Stream Media has always favored the dems and will spin anything into a negative. Rush is just the stalking horse for now, Bush was the horse until he left office, and Palin was the horse while she had the national spotlight. We need to get the message out anyway we can, Rush included, and we need to stop sniping at anyone who carries the banner of proper conservatism. That would include stopping shots at Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, and Rush. Like him or not, Rush is the most famous and most well known commentator in the nation, including the likes of Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck. Let's just get over that, shall we?

Good. Now that that's settled  we can get back to talking about hunting economically disadvantaged hobps for fun and profit.

Therefore, I suggest this as a new business: Canned Hobo Hunting Tours in South Central LA or downtown Chicago and or NYC. No tags, no bag limits and no need to hide the hobo in the trunk of your car. Just stow the hobo in the bed of your truck and declare him when you get to the weigh station. You'll be charged by the pound and jerky you can make is low-salt and self preservative due to the high alcohol content. Pickling is a good thing...

Just a thought...

Sandman.

332 You know, there are times where it's very mildly amusing that Ace can't be bothered to check what's been posted before.

This isn't one of them.

Ace, put down the ValuRite, check yourself into a center until the DT's settle down and then take responsibility for stepping on your own crank.  Don't blame the rest of us.

333 Can you imagine what the MSM would have done if a McCain SecState had presented the Russians with a warmed-over big red pushbutton gimmick reading "overcharge" in Cyrillic? You can't make this stuff up.

It wasn't even IN CYRILLIC! It was a transliteration!

334 Which one?

The whole question of whether we should question Michael Steele's competence, of whether Rush Limbaugh is a leader of, or the leader of, or the theoretician of, the GOP, of whether we are allowed to oppose Obama without parsing our objections like lawyers composing the small-print qualifiers at the end of a pharmaceutical ad on TV.

I think we need to go on the offensive full bore. The voters we need to pick up are not as intelligent, or as plugged in to the discussion, as Ace, Gabriel Malor or Patterico, Hannity, etc. Sound bites, cogent (but pithy) arguments, and slogans are more effective than reasoned, highly nuanced arguments. Propaganda repeated a thousand times will trump a high toned, reasoned argument every time. We need to learn from Lenein, Marx, Goebbels and Alinsky and use their techniques - with our concepts.

Fuck being acceptable to the T. Coddington VasVoorhees VIIs of the world. I'd rather defeat this jug-eared command economist asshole.

335

There are very few in the middle of the political spectrum and we Conservatives do not move towards a shifting Pop Culture mainstream. Our beliefs are who we are, there is no compromise.

Posted by: ErikW

Erik, I think you have a good point. This is what I see:

social liberal/economic liberal (college educated youth, who vote democrat)

social conservative/economic liberal (democrat base)

social liberal/economic conservative ( libertarians, who vote republican)

social conservative/economic conservative (republican base)

The libertarians are quick to point to every poll that shows the country is moving to the left. What they never seem to acknowledge, however, is that the country is moving left both socially and economically. Libertarians believe that if we drop the social cons, republicans will attract that first set of voters. I think that's bs.

Those young college educated voters are as wed to economic liberalism as they are to social liberalism. They are not going to stop supporting issues like climate change, multiculturalism, economic "justice", etc.  They are not going to vote republican whether or not we say, "go ahead and  fuck anybody, marry anybody or have as many abortions as you wish."

I am socially moderate but I do not consider social conservatives my enemy. They are allies. I wish the libertarians would stop acting as if they need to don a full body condom when they so much as enter a room with the likes of Sarah Palin.

336 T. Coddington VasVoorhees VIIs of the world

I apologize. That should read "T. Coddington VanVoorhees VIIs" of the world. Too much alcohol and vitriol, too little proofreading.

337 I don't get this argument.

Let Rush be Rush and do what he wants. He's not a GOP leader.

Let the GOP be polite to Rush, but never claim to follow him.

Why do we need one unified message?

Michael Moore does not control the Democrats, but they seat him at their convention.

338 Tattoo De Plane, #230... thanks for the 'Ren & Stimpy' memories!

339 Obama has begged us to not "stuff our mattresses," so that's precisely what we should do.

That's how I immediately interpreted it.

340 No problem.

Can we just remember, as we face down Obama's next gambit, that we should not let the left/MSM play divide and conquer when one of us says something colorful or - heaven forfend - something open to (mis)interpretation.

When asked for comment on our own let's strive to turn the focus back where it belongs - on Obama and his wrongheaded, ill conceived, and fundamentally dangerous ideas about our country and our future.

If you can't say anything nice say it about Obama.

341 Why do we need one unified message?

The perfect is the enemy of the good; trying to get one unified message makes our job that much harder.

I can understand Ace wanting his site to push one unified message, but I would hope that conservatives - and the GOP - would push a myriad of points. And then, like a mechanized army, pour assets at any hole that develops in the enemy's defenses.

342 t he wrost thing you can do is apologize or display any embarrassment about anyone in the aprty be it a group of 'rednecks' or Rush or whomever the idiot media is targeting that day..

MiM has it right.  Totally right.

343 C'mon everbody! Let's have a hoedown!

Heh. 

Hey  Abner?  Yeah, Ewald?  What's ignorant?  I dunno but we's it!  Hyuck, hyuck, hyuck...

344 There are very few in the middle of the political spectrum and we Conservatives do not move towards a shifting Pop Culture mainstream. Our beliefs are who we are, there is no compromise.

I would agree with this, and would add that the days of pleasant compromise and politely trying to please those on the other side are over.

We are looking at socialism/fascism/communism/takeyourchoice here, folks.  The pedal is hitting the medal and the crap is hitting the fan and it is all here NOW.

Pick your side and stick to it, and stop worrying about what the other side says.

Instead, give 'em hell.  Every minute, and at every turn.

345 Good post

346 Instead of taking the opportunity to point out that what he is saying is basically exactly what Limbaugh said, he tosses him under the bus. Fucking marvelous.

This isn't a political party it's a 8th grade class of girls.

Geez, Newt.  Grow a pair.  I'm a nice little mild-mannered female, and I've got more balls than he does.

347 317

Agree. LOTS of things need to be said. Sadly, more and more "conservatives" join the growing list of those who are scared of their own shadows and as a result, parse everything they say (if they say it at all), everyday. Don't play into their hands?? We've arrived, as a country, at this very spot, precisely because all we ever do is play into their hands.

The Liberals HAVE set the agenda, and too many of "us" are following. THEY say we can't or shouldn't say this, that, or the other thing? Fuck them. Even as we approach them, and slide towards their end of the political spectrum as a party, the constant name-calling doesn't slow. So our response? Join them! Not just on this RUSH BS, but on everything! Woohoo!

If Rush (no big fan here) saying he hopes Barry fails is so wildly out of control bad and inappropriate, and unnecessary, and over the top, and playing right into their hands, etc....we have lost.

What Hussien Obama is doing can ONLY result in the end of this country as we know it. The very idea that we should only carefully, and after running things by the committee, comment as "inoffensively" as possible IS the problem.

Just because we're the adults in the room, doesn't mean we can't be angry about what the liberals have done to this country. Sometimes, a punch in the jaw IS appropriate. Mitt wanted to call the lawyers before responding, remember? He really IS the face of the pathetic party called republicans...

348 t he wrost [sic] thing you can do is apologize or display any embarrassment about anyone in the aprty [sic] be it a group of 'rednecks' or Rush or whomever the idiot media is targeting that day..

Absolutely! Does anyone here see the left apologizing for "the Rev." Wright or that bastard Ayres? We need not apologize for anything Limbaugh says. Just keep pushing forward. I can't remember the exact quote - and I'm too lazy drunk to look it up, but a Red Army general once said something like, "My left is buckling. My center is at a standstill. Situation excellent; I attack."

We need to attack. Relentlessly. Fuck being gentleman or ladies. Fuck being acceptable or honorable. I have lost over 50% of my 401(k) and I want someone's head.

Secret Service/FBI: The above was literal, not figurative. Stay in your office and have another cup of coffee.

349 Secret Service/FBI: The above was literal, not figurative. Stay in your office and have another cup of coffee.

Uh, if you're trying to keep the Secret Service away, you want it to be figurative. Literal would mean you actually want someone killed.

350 Ace,

I've noticed that ever since possibly the middle of September, you have become a weak and spineless jellyfish of a blogger. You had a never-say-die-attitude, and now you have a fuck-me-in-the-ass-Obama attitude. I don't like it, and I ain't standing for it.

Everyone else,

If you want to get away from these eeyores, and get away from people like AllahFuckIt and David Frum, head over to http://www.manlyrash.com

At least there you'll be treated like a human being instead of a second-class citizen.

And one other thing: I hope Obama Fails. And that Ace Fails with him.

351 *metal!!

352 Uh, if you're trying to keep the Secret Service away, you want it to be figurative. Literal would mean you actually want someone killed.

I stand corrected. Again, too much alcohol; too little proofreading.

353 What Shoey said in Spades. Keep the talk and thought alive. Thanks for the forum, Ace.

354

The latter posts are exactly right. Just as the Left did to Bush, we need relentlessly to kick the shit out of Obama. Unlike Bush, Obama will not let us go unanswered. On the other hand, unlike the Left's fever swamp delusions, this prick actually does want to turn the United States into a soft totalitarian nation.

It is patriotic to want Obama to fail. It is not a matter of what we want, either. These economic policies have failed eveywhere they have been tried.

The next time the Left pushes a boogeyman, we need to point out it is a pure distraction designed to deflect atttention from Obama's "failures." I use scare quotes because I think he has deliberately wrecked the economy. We need to ignore their games and go straight for the throat.

355 Oh, mine was figurative as well. Thanks for the reminder in these times of left-wing goosestepping, NEPA.

356 Thank you for replying, jacksonhunted. I sometimes think my function here is to kill threads.

357 Phinn, the thing is, if the recession is deep enough and long enough, than ANY meager growth will eventually be perceived as a win.

Dude -- FDR.

Dude, it's 2009.

I can think of 4 huge ways off the top of my head in which this is not like 1932, and how the FDR phenomenon can never happen again (by which I mean "ushering in socialism, ruining people's lives by the millions, and yet still managing to convince a generation or two that it was actually helpful, i.e., lying successfully") --

1. Term limits.  The Myth of FDR succeeded in large part because he had 5 terms to use his office to control the discussion. That can't happen again, not even for O. 

2. A more sophisticated public -- I know it seems strange for me to assert this one, what with stupidity being so rampant, but in the 1930s, the public was not as cynical or media-savvy as today, and was thus more gullible.  There's more room for skepticism of grand claims and prophets today, or at least more room for potential disillusionment.  Ironically, FDR is one of the reasons for this.  America has been pre-FDRed. 

3. BHO is no FDR.  BHO is an empty suit and a fraud.  Every time he opens his mouth, more people see this.  There's also an increased media scrutiny from the 1930s to today, thus more opportunities to expose this fraud. 

4.  And the biggest reason the FDR thing can never happen again -- You.  Seriously.  New media.  The Internet.  An alternative voice.  Along with Rush and his tens of millions of listeners.  You're it.  It's in your hands.  You can help define the opposition, which will lay the groundwork for Obama's undoing.  When he fails, we can be there to explain why, and discredit not only him, but the entire Boomer, red diaper baby, hippy, campus commie, socialist agenda forever. 

It's a tall order, but it falls on you now. 

358 It's a tall order, but it falls on you now.

It's a tall order that falls on the entire blogosphere; the question is whether we are up to it. Some will shy away from the task from a desire to not offend. Others will plunge in, "Let foemen lurk, and laggards shirk."

We will all choose our sides soon enough.

359 The next time the Left pushes a boogeyman, we need to point out it is a pure distraction designed to deflect attention from Obama's "failures." I use scare quotes because I think he has deliberately wrecked the economy. We need to ignore their games and go straight for the throat.

I've already done that at my blog...with Obama's Limbaugh Strategy, and DNC Website Hosts Anti-Rush Slogan Contest.

I haven't posted anything about the Republican infighting (even though I could use the hits) because I'm more interested in exposing what the Dems are doing than in taking their bait.

360 Amen, Ace.  Amen.

Obama insulted Britain and then his staffers blamed it on exhaustion and an inability to think about foreign affairs.

Hillary was so busy trying to insult Pres. Bush, she screwed up a stupid prank.

The stock market is melting and Uncle Sam is flushing money down the toilet so fast it's stopping the sucker up.

And we're talking about Limbaugh?!?!?!?!?!  WTF?!?!  In the words of the immortal, socialist, Soros-funded wackos..."MoveOn" people.  MoveOn.

361 Carl @ 205 nailed it.

The crux of the problem is that Ace is taking "I hope Obama fails" as equal to "I hope America fails."

Back the fuck up.

Who the fuck told you that Obama and America were on the same team?  He hates this country!  He thinks it's racist and he hates the capitalist system, so he's actively taking steps to change us into something that isn't "America" anymore.

And you seem to agree, but you say "Gee, I don't want to say that out loud because someone might get offended and we'll lose more voters."

This is where you need to reach down between your legs and tell me what you feel.  Because let me tell you something, my nervous little buddy - if Obama succeeds in enacting all his socialist plans, you can forget about ever changing the system through voting. 

Ever.  Again.

If he succeeds, the only remedy won't have a thing to do with voting.  And if you want to see your name on the Protected Rolls, it's time to come to Jeff Jesus.

362

Ace #21

When did "I hope he fails" -- expressed PRECISELY in that fashion, with no suggestions for making it more diplomatic permitted -- become core conservative doctrine?

 

I think the point is that the two sides of the aisle have become so divergent that it's time to shed any pretense of being bipartisan.  I'm ok with this stance, because I accept the premise that the governing left's (and some of the elite "right") ideal America has no room for me in it, except as a source of tax revenue.  If you haven't had that awakening as of yet, you likely feel differently.

As for Steele, if he can't perform in such a low-pressure interview, he's probably not the man for such an important role.  More troublesome is that he likely said exactly what he thinks. 

 

363 Posted by: Phinn at March 08, 2009 10:04 PM (X6sgq)

Reason #5 - FDR took over after the Depression had run over 3 years.  Obama took over while the econ was only in recession and still quite salvagable - at least until his "stimulus" package, budget,and continuing bailouts put American in debt up well past its eyeballs. Obama doesn't have nearly as much room to blame his predecessor as FDR did.

364 "My Final Word" - Ace

"I'll be back with a final thought" - Jerry Springer

Just sayin'...

365 Actually Ace had a pretty good point ...this time.

Most of the rest of you - like your ideological opponents - are so blinded by your own belief systems that you wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up and bit ya inna ass... Oh...wait. It already has.

iow, if you don't hear the echo of your own voices coming back you, it just can't be True to The Faith. Then, you bitch about those bad, evil, old, Northeastern Conservatives because...they don't like not hearing the echo of their own voices coming back from you.

The Constitution. Plain and simple reading. It said what it meant and meant what it said. Sophistry and ideology not required. Do it.

It starts with, "We the People..." Not "We, the Conservatives." Not "We, the Republicans..." Not, "We, the best and brightest..." Not, "We, the Democrats..." Not, "We, the ideological pure..."

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

The more you argue and fight and divide yourselves over trifles, the more you destroy 'domestic tranquility.'

You know one of the best ways to win any battle? Divide your enemy's forces.

Forget your ideology. Unite under the banner of freedom. Allow each man the same freedoms and rights which you allow yourselves. If you can't do that, you are no more than tyrants and bullies, yourselves.

366 You know, every single one of you has been told this by a friend or spouse at one point -- "I know what you mean, but you could have phrased that better."

Yeah, true dat.  We've also all (well, the vast majority of us) have been taken aside by a friend or a spouse and told "dude, you've been hitting the val-u-rite a bit too much lately.  What you're saying makes no goddam sense."

Dude, ...

367 I for one NEVER said Rush should be the spokesmodel for the Party or the conservative movement, NEVER said he was "infallible" or anything remotely like it.

But when he is criticized for some lack of "appropriate sensitivity" or whatever weasel-word PC term is in vogue this week when what he said was dead-on right and something I agree with 100%, I damn sure have his back (even though I haven't listened in many years).

You do not seem to understand that whatever "nuance" Rush might try, or you or Frum or Parker or Patterico or Buckley might try, you will NEVER be respected or given the benefit of the doubt by the Left/Media and the morons they have managed to fool.  They will use you to damage the brand (far more than Rush being Rush ever could), then discard you like a used condom.

At least Patterico acknowledges the Left never wanted Bush to "succeed" for a single second, even when our soldiers were in harm's way - on his way to retreating to "well, neither Rush nor David Frum speaks for me."  Mealy-mouthed mother!  Rush doesn't speak for me either, but no way I throw him under the bus when he's right just to please a bunch of assholes.  Frum is just a self-important little prick who is no doubt stroking off to all the attention.

I'm sure Rush appreciates the advice on being very careful choosing his words - especially from a guy who regularly jokes about killing hobos.  Hey, you've got an enviable website following, one of the top draws on the right side of the blogosphere without doubt, but I have a hunch he'll pay more attention to your advice once somebody offers you a quarter-BILLION $$ long-term contract for your opinions.

In the meantime, attempting to placate the Left/Media accomplishes exactly nothing beyond starting the sort of internecine feuding we're seeing here and elsewhere.  There is certainly a time when we have to reach out to the mushy middle - they call them elections, I recall.  The next one isn't for 20 months, and it's a midterm - meaning the voters won't be paying close attention for over a year yet.

In the meantime, let's decide who we are and what we stand for, and not start backtracking.  If we do that, we have a chance to win over the electorate in the same way Reagan and the Contract with America did. 

But the people who STARTED this civil war over Limbaugh and populist conservatives in general don't get to just say, "Okay, it's over."  It ain't freaking over until it's over, any more than it was "over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor."  And yeah, I'll defend Blutarsky, too!

368

It starts with, "We the People..." Not "We, the Conservatives." Not "We, the Republicans..." Not, "We, the best and brightest..." Not, "We, the Democrats..." Not, "We, the ideological pure..."

bitch, pleeze

369 @ 366

That was fucking Ghey.

Right now those "Northeastern conservatives" are holding hands with "We the People" and singing Kumbaya as they march our constitutional republic right off a cliff and into a woodchipper.

Yes, there will be domestic tranquility once all your CONSTITUTIONAL freedoms are stripped from you.  North Korea is currently enjoying record levels of domestic tranquility.  Why don't you go live there?

FAIL, Pops.  Go catch Leno and turn in for the night.  You babble when you're tired.

370 Wow.  I can't believe no one has said this (I sped-read the comments, so forgive me if I missed it): 

1.  Limbaugh did not mean, "I hope Obama's presidency is looked back on as a failure."  He meant, "I hope Obama fails to implement his policies."  And frankly, the country would be better off if he failed to implement those policis, which would make him a more successful president in the bigger scheme of things.

2. Limbaugh threw red meat to the media/dems/libs when he said "I hope he fails."  And he threw that red meat consciously (he has repeatedly done that kind of thing on a smaller scale).

3.  I would think someone could be a great supporter of Limbaugh and his ideas and still think his statement may end up doing more harm than good (I'm not sure, myself). 

4.  Predictably, the media/dems/libs are trying to use it to bash conservatives and Republicans.  And a lot of people think they're very successful in that effort.

Which leads us to what seems to be Ace's point: 

5.  This is not a hill to die on; it's not worth it and we can't win.

Now, #5 is obviously open to debate.  But nowhere in all of this do I see justification for the abuse heaped on Ace and anyone that agrees with him.  What in the world is going on here?

I'm thinking maybe Morons just like to fight...

371 Ace is getting abuse because he's been throwing out some abuse in his own right.

He keeps claiming - falsely - that people are calling him "not a conservative".  This is false.  People are calling him a pussy who is failing to stand up to the Left's abuse, and instead lying down for it.

IF Ace were saying "Rush didn't say anything wrong.  The Left is being incredibly, unbelievably hypocritical when all they did was pray that Bush would fail every day of his presidency.  Now, that said, this is all a distraction, and let's move on, cause this is what Obama wants us talking about."  Then I'd be right behind Ace.

But Ace can't do that, no.  He has to say "Rush fucked up, Rush could've said it better, Rush said something that can easily be distorted".  Ace, you massive pussy, -every fucking thing we say- is massively distorted every fucking day.  If you want to die on the beach of "at least I never said anything that could be distorted to sound bad" (and you, of all people, dying on that beach is both hilarious and hypocritical) then you, sir, are bad for conservatism.  No one's saying that you -aren't- a conservative, but you're such a pussy and you're so willing to throw our own people overboard over the petty, ridiculous shit the Left -wants- you to do so, that you're not helping.

You keep insisting that this is the conversation Obama -wants- us to be having.  No.  Obama would be pretty fucking upset if everyone was saying what -we- are saying, which is Rush said absolutely nothing that merits an apology.  Obama is -delighted- that he's got people like -you- saying "Rush shouldn't have said that, nuh uh".  -You- are the one around here saying what Obama wants said.  The rest of us aren't.  If everyone were saying "Rush was right", Obama wouldn't be a happy camper.  If everyone was saying "Rush is wrong, Ace is right", Obama would put you on the payroll.

Qwinn

372 This is not a hill to die on; it's not worth it and we can't win.

Actually, these kind of battles with libs are often won....eventually, long after the firestorm dies down. But only if we stand firm, do not waver, do not back down, DO NOT APOLOGIZE. When the conservative bete noir at the moment shows any sign of weakness, the sharks in the media have a feeding frenzy.

We should all know this tune by heart, by now. You defend yourself, of course. But then you laugh at the rabble rousers...give the them the finger, and move on.

373

  Warren Bonesteel @ #366:

  I think that "pure" conservatives cannot win without getting moderates and independents to come over to our side; BUT why are the conservatives the only ones who are consistently asked to swallow their principles and "go along to get along"?  Just one fucking time, I'd LOVE to hear all the pundits tell all those Northeastern Ivy League Moderates "You know, we love you and all that, BUT your constant attacks on Rush/Sarah Palin/Fred Thompson/whoever are dividing the party and only benefitting Obama."

  Unless your definition of "Party Building" is to run off all those damn Godbotherers.

374 Fucking sockpuppet.  374 was me.

375

Wow, where to even begin…

 

First off I’m afraid that  like several of your commenters feel, it seems like several right wing blogs are now worried more about their image, than whether or not Rush is right or wrong. Do you want to be a Frum or David Brooks? These are the same folks that, as bad as he was, sold out the only Republican candidate to make themselves look better? Aren’t these the same ones dissing Rush by pointing out how intellectual the 0 is?

 

Second Rush has twenty million listeners, even Insty doesn’t come even close! These folks can not even spell blog, let alone know what you folks are talking about.. Rush’s listeners are the muddle, but like he, Glen Beck Hannity, Hewitt, and many other radio commenters are saying these folks are where the majority truly is. Sorry, I love reading you guys, but the truth is the majority in this country doesn’t know you exist.

 

OK then, what to do about that?

 

I can only hope that along with the MSM, you folks are not pretending that the folks all over the country attending the tea parties and the like are not trying to make their voices heard. These folks have had it. They are not concise or eloquent in their beliefs, but they know in their hearts that the 0 is going to destroy this country. And they are trying to learn how to make a difference and if possible, stop the 0. Many of them, who can barely figure out how to open their e-mail are navigating one of the most God-awful message boards ever created to find groups for the Glen Beck We Surround Them Meet Ups. There are literally thousands of these groups, people that barely bothered to know who was running for President until last Oct! These people need leaders to help them articulate their message; most of them don’t call themselves R’,Ds, or even independents, they just know Socialism is wrong

 

So why don’t you folks get out and help them to learn to voice their conservative opinions? I know you are brash, but many of you bloggers and commenters are very eloquent in the defense of conservative views and values.

 

You guys, and gals here, and at Pattericos, and at proteinwisdom, and Just One Minute, and Hot Air are needed now to help these folks make a difference.

 

I know this is probably coming in on the dead end of the thread, but Ace, if you folks want to make a difference this is where you all can choose to be leaders, as well as debaters!

376

T. Coddlington Van Frum III?

perhaps.

 

 

377 The justification is that when one of the great voices of Conservatism said something true, Ace and Patternico decided it wasn't nuanced enough, and pretended it could reasonably be taken to mean Rush was hoping for the economy to crash, despite the truth being exhaustively explained.

In other words, Rush must be thrown under the bus, despite what he said being true, because in a sound bit society, the wishy washy center could maybe, possibly, conceivably misunderstand.

Fuck that. Stand up for the truth, and screw those who would distort it.

We don't need no more McLaimes  leading our party.

378 "Michael Moore does not control the Democrats, but they seat him at their convention."

A side point, sure, but Michael Moore is not the Leftwing Rush Limbaugh.  The only thing they have in common is girth.  Rush Limbaugh is an intellectually honest conservative commenter, and Michael Moore is an intellectually dishonest fraud. 

379 So why don’t you folks get out and help them to learn to voice their conservative opinions? I know you are brash, but many of you bloggers and commenters are very eloquent in the defense of conservative views and values.

I've gone to two tea parties so far, and posted pictures on my blog. Ace doesn't seem interested in linking, or getting the Moron groups organized to start attending these things. Which is regrettable, because you're right. This is really where it's at - not this self defeating Republican infighting, which is playing right into Obama's hands.

I remember saying right after the election that conservatives were going to have to learn to organize...and take to the streets to have their voices heard. Well, it's happening, already all over the country.

Gateway Pundit is reporting  15,000 people attended a tax revolt in CA. Some of these deals are getting huge.

380

Must really be tough having to endure all that force being applied to you to stick a knife in Rush.  Must be tough having to hang out publically with the likes of Frum, Sullivan, Dreher, Moran, Patterico, and all the others who believe the GOP should take a new course by being even more moderate than McCain.

Who can possibly agree with Limbaugh that:

-taxing the rich is counter productive if taken to extremes

-that socialism isn't what the founding fathers fought for

-that whatever the government gives must come out of another's pocket

 

So very Dreheresque.  Pass the brie please.

381 If the TRUTH is that we hope he fails, then let's say it. To hell with those who can't figure out what it means (moderates). The idea is to start getting the TRUTH out. Before long, people heretofore too timid to speak the truth start seeing there's others like them, and then they aren't afraid to say it, either.

To hell with nuance. That's one of the things that got us where we are today, up shit creek.

Someone has to start telling the truth. And when they do, it's up to us to not be shrinking violets. The tipping point theory can work for us, too. Shout it from the fucking rooftop, I WANT HIM TO FAIL!!!

After we get a "tip" of the discussion, even the MSM will have trouble spinning it. Our problem is, we always fucking back down. No more!

382 Must really be tough having to endure all that force being applied to you to stick a knife in Rush. Must be tough having to hang out publically with the likes of Frum, Sullivan, Dreher, Moran, Patterico, and all the others who believe the GOP should take a new course by being even more moderate than McCain.
Who can possibly agree with Limbaugh that:
-taxing the rich is counter productive if taken to extremes
-that socialism isn't what the founding fathers fought for
-that whatever the government gives must come out of another's pocket

See, that right there is why this whole thing is so stupid. Talk about a non sequitur. When did Ace every disagree with anything on that list? He never did. But ar-tards like Thomas are coming out of the woodwork to say idiotic tripe like that.

383

"I hope he fails" is the way the Democrat operatives and the anti-conservative media frame this issue. Is shouldn't be how WE refer to it. Like Rush, I hope Obama fails AT TURNING AMERICA INTO A SOCIALIST COUNTRY. That should not be controversial. It is NOT equivalent to Democrats trying with all their might for 5 years to lose the war in Iraq.

This seems to me to be an easy one to win. No need to shy away. Just kick ass. All that is required is to fully name the issue.

384 361 Amen, Ace.  Amen.

Obama insulted Britain and then his staffers blamed it on exhaustion and an inability to think about foreign affairs.

Hillary was so busy trying to insult Pres. Bush, she screwed up a stupid prank.

The stock market is melting and Uncle Sam is flushing money down the toilet so fast it's stopping the sucker up.

And we're talking about Limbaugh?!?!?!?!?!  WTF?!?!  In the words of the immortal, socialist, Soros-funded wackos..."MoveOn" people.  MoveOn.

Posted by: someone out there at March 08, 2009 10:33 PM (X2zFU)

Yep. 

385 All great movements have some infighting. The point is, I want to be on the side of truth, and to win that infighting. If I lay down, truth loses. It doesn't magically erase the infighting, it only means my side lost.

This whole "avoid internal squabbles at all costs" argument is pissing me off. It's normal. Get over it. If you want to lay down, then fine. We win.

This is just like the dems equating bipartisanship only with the Republicans crossing the aisle.

386 "I hope Obama fails" is not core conservative doctrine as such, but it's a good four word summary.

Do we hope he fails in his mission to fix the economy?  No, because fixing the economy is NOT his mission.  His mission is to remake the American economy.  His mission is to transform the world's greatest economic engine into a giant collective, to as he himself put it, "spread the wealth around".

In his true mission, Yes, I HOPE OBAMA FAILS.

It's hard to believe that it's barely twenty years since Reagan left office.

387 Seems to me that if the President's three hags were polling Rush all the way back to last fall, then they were going to target him for something.  If it wasn't "I hope he fails" it would've been something else, anything else.  They wanted this fight, and wanted Rush to be ground zero.
So, they picked the venue, they picked the battlefield; question is: do we fight, or withdraw.  If we withdraw, we leave all the arguments Rush embodies (no to taxes, no to socialism, no to health care) as casualties whether we like it or not.   20 million listeners provides a pretty decent shield to withstand the assault, if we'd just stand and fight.  The battle lines are drawn, like it or not, around Limbaugh.
It's a classic spoiling attack.  Best thing to do is reinforce Rush, and break it off in their ass.

388

First I must say as an Obama fan, all rethuglicans suck.  What does it matter if all America fails as long as Dear Leader President Obama can have partys and eat delicious Wagyu steak.  His policy is simply to get even will all those evil people acatually trying to make a profit and a living.  As his policy leaves our nation in ashes, we can look to the shining light of his smile and Michelle's toned arms and say he is all ours.

Okay seriously, let us stop trying to hoist each other over the rail.  Rush is a great man who is bold and unyielding in battle.  The enemies of the right will embrace you so they may stab you in the back because they have no stomach for a fair fight.  I have no disdain for Ace or the others, but they must realize it is the media they should focus on.  At some point conservatives will have to face the eneny and stop wondering if we shold be watching our backs!

389 Fighting internal battles to a successful resolution strengthens the philosophical base of the party. Avoiding them for the sake of unity postpones the inevitable and dilutes things. Here, in early 2009, we need to fight these battles, declare a victor, and move on to the next one, and then the next, until the party philosophy is distilled.

It's that "declaring the victor" part that's tricky. A leader would be helpful.

390 What better way to begin to educate the sheeple about the meaning of socialism than starting off the conversation with a hearty, "I hope he fails!"  There's a great opportunity here, many microphones shoved into conservatives' faces.  Rather than make excuses, why not continue to shout it, and take the opportunity to explain the dire concerns which precipitated the strong comment?

Republicans at some point must go on offense and not feel guilty about it.  Or die.

391 http://tinyurl.com/Patrick-Ruffini

392 Ace is kind talking about having principles. Most of you lack something in that department. You have ideology. You have beliefs. These are not principles. and you possess no less a desire to impose those ideologies and beliefs on others. Like your ideological opponents, you also seem to think that personal attacks, sophistry and bad syllogisms make up a good argument. Hell, most people calling themselves classical liberals are no different.

Conservatives and Republicans have no coherent message. You divide yourselves among yourselves and are intolerant of any dissent from the doctrines you promote, and those doctrines have very little to do with freedom, liberty, or even The Constitution of the United States.

What you lack in principle, you make up for in neotenous insults and vehemence.

Your attacks on Ace on prove these points.

...and believe me, I'm not really a fan of his...

393

Sorry about post #392 coming thru with just a link that won't click for some reason.It won't post in the body of a comment.

Anyway  Patrick Ruffini agrees with most of your commenters,and he says it better than I can.So please read it.

Nice Deb,thanks for taking part with the Tea Parties.

These folks really could use some leaders and teachers.I hope you will all consider my first comment, and help them.  

394 This article at FrontPageMagazine is good, too.

395 Oh, I believe you, Warren.

396 What you lack in principle, you make up for in neotenous insults and vehemence.

Your attacks on Ace on prove these points.

But let me guess, your attacks on we critics of ace's position in this debate proves your principals.

Convenient.

397 Posted by: Warren Bonesteel at March 09, 2009 12:46 AM (vzRhk)

In the vast morass of personal attacks and ad hominems that make up your post, was there actually an argument or a point somewhere?

You seem to not like our tone.  As Ace said in the post below this: physician, heal thyself.

398 Nike Sneakers

399 The state is not an organism capable of bringing either moral or material improvements to the populace…but merely a vehicle of power for the men and party in power. - Niccolo Machiavelli

How many references and resources do ya want? I can back up everything I say...

I don';t expect you to agree with me, but you'll know I'm not just pullin' this stuff out of thin air and makin' it up as I go along.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed  of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in  politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for  myself.  Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and  moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I  would not go there at all."
 --Thomas Jefferson to Francis
 Hopkinson, 1789.
 http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl75.htm

400 I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the
government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.-Thomas Jefferson

401 My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.-Thomas Jefferson

402 If you don’t read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed.-Mark Twain

403 AD, you make my point for me. You want to hold others to account, but hate when someone calls you on your intellectual dishonesty. That's called hypocrisy. Thus, the attacks against Ace. Ace posed a question you folks didn't want to be asked, let alone have to answer honestly.

The Democrats are better at hiding their hypocrisy, but they've had more practice. Wonder why the Republicans are out of power? The independents and centrists in America see the hypocrisy of the conservatives and of most Republicans...and they don't like it a bit. Also, in an act of hypocrisy personified, during the last election, six million of ya sat home in a snit. They didn't like McCain and they didn't like Palin, either. That many votes would've given the Republicans the chance to at least have the White House. It wouldn't have stopped the economic collapse, but it might've slowed things down. iow, if you couldn't have a pure conservative ideologue in office, you'll allow the nation to go to hell under a known and proven Marxist leadership.

Physician, heal thyself, indeed.

404 Warren Bonesteel is a skidmark-lee

405

Ace is kind talking about having principles. Most of you lack something in that department. You have ideology. You have beliefs. These are not principles. and you possess no less a desire to impose those ideologies and beliefs on others. Like your ideological opponents, you also seem to think that personal attacks, sophistry and bad syllogisms make up a good argument. Hell, most people calling themselves classical liberals are no different.

Who let the moron into the room?  We're trying to convince Ace that he's looking at this the wrong way.  His wrong way is causing him to take a certain stance on the matter, and it's the wrong stance -- the stance of someone who will relinquish precious ground to the enemy.  That is fucking it.

All this folderol about principles, ideology, and beliefs is a non sequitur.  You'll find "non sequitur" where you found "sophistry" and "syllogism".  But, hey, even if we had the right beliefs and idealogies, it would be some sort of sin, right, to try to convince others through argumentation?  On no, we're imposing our beliefs on Ace -- uhm, yeah, that's it.

Reread Aristotle.

406 Gentlemen,   Rush Limbaugh is taking a lot of heat for his address at CPAC. Apparently, he managed to offend just about everyone in the room. Except, of course, for the many people applauding wildly.  As a piece of public speaking, it wasn't really a polarizing address in and of itself. What it did to was illuminate a fundamental cleavage plane in the GOP and the conservative movement. We can't afford that. Not right now, and not for the next four years.   The conservative "movement" as far as there is such a thing, has its roots in two worlds. Historically, the party leadership has come from the East coast Waspocracy, via the Ivy League. This has served us very well, coming from the tradition of Burke, Smith, Rand, and 2000 years of Western Culture. Publications like the National Review and the Weekly Standard served to tie the "thinking" conservatives together across the country.    The other wing doesn't live so much in the cities. It centers, if anywhere, in the South/Southwest, Midwest, and in smaller towns across the country. These people work. They don't need to be told about personal responsibility, positive economics, or the difference between facts and wishful thinking. They learned those things from their parents and grandparents. This is the base. The beer-drinking, nascar-cheering, pickup-driving base. The base that too much of the Waspocracy takes for granted, but would never invite for dinner.   And that's the trouble. Most of the punditocracy, most of the conservative media, GOP incumbents, et al come from the educated upper stratum of the party. Too many of them assume that the "base" will just follow along. After all, what are they going to do, vote for Obama?    News Flash: some of them did. More of them didn't vote. There is a justifiable doubt that the current GOP really speaks for them. The east coast Waspocracy doesn't seem to be making any efforts to walk their concerns, except at election time. There isn't anyone in the upper levels of the party that belongs to them. This is a serious problem. This is why, for all his competence, Romney went nowhere. These are Reagan's people.   These are also Limbaugh and Palin's people. Rush commands an enormous listenership in this demographic. Tens of thousands of these folks nearly rioted with joy at Palin's acceptance speech. Millions of them stayed away from the polls when she tried to play someone she is not. They don't hate her, they're not even tired of her. They just don't buy the beltway version of Governor Sarah Palin. It's artificial.   Rush was talking to his listenership. I suspect he knew it. Beltway conservatives' reaction to his address illustrates their separation from that listenership. And here's the kicker:     The democratic apparat is using this to drive a stake through the heart of the conservative movement. They've already used it to destroy Steele, and we're still cowering before them. If they can create a true separation between the two cultural wings of the conservative movement, then it's doomed. We'll split into Paulicans and Hucksters frighteningly fast. If that happens, it will take another Buckley to redefine the conservative idealogy, and by then, you won't recognize this country. Or like it much.   There's a lot more vitality in the conservative outlands than there is in the mainland right now. Rush speaks for that outland, and like him or hate him, he's one of our own. Right now, he's holding the rearguard together, and probably wondering why no one has his back. Yes he's a talk-show host, and yes he's a blowhard, but he's a very influential talk show host, and a highly intelligent blowhard. And he's OUR blowhard, dammit.   Rush and Sarah's people don't really demand much. A respectful hearing for their concerns, to be dealt with reasonably fairly, the second amendment. It's not a complicated list, and it's not even unique to the conservative outlands. What the beltway has forgotten is that snake-oil salesmen and tent preachers are well known out here, and we know how to deal with them. Despite his blazing competence, Romney imploded out here because he's just that little bit too smooth and considered. Giuliani may be a funny-looking little fucker from NYC, but he's got game, and he's real.   Out here, that counts.   First. If some of our elected Republican leadership doesn't get Limbaugh's back, and get it soon, we're going to have real trouble pretending that there is such a thing as the Republican Party. He was speaking to and for the outlands-dwellers. They know it, and they can see perfectly well that their anointed leaders are too fucking scared to get his back. This does not play well in Peoria. You don't have to listen to him, Hewitt is much more interesting. You don't have to like him, I don't particularly. But you ought to respect his stature and influence, and you fucking well ought to get his back.   Second. The Boogieman is dead. Long live the Boogieman. Atwater was probably the best political tactician to practice in the last two generations. The only other nominee is Roger Stone, and he's sorta' retired. It's cosmically ironic to watch the democrats pick up Atwater's playbook. After years of painting him as the prince of darkness, they steal his game without even the decency to pay royalties on it. The moves to destroy Steele are pure Atwater.    Worse, the suicidal idiocy over Limbaugh and CPAC has given them another angle from which to split the GOP. They've been trying to split limbaugh's demographic off for years, and we're making it easier for them.    Lee Atwater reincarnated as Carville and Axelrod. I could weep.   Third. Beyond getting Limbaugh's back, the single smartest thing that the GOP can do right now is to divert as many returning veterans into politics as possible. They've been out there beyond the wall, they've seen the elephant, sometimes with a vengeance. It lends a certain perspective. The Obama administration has embarked on a genuine Children's Crusade with foreign and economic policy. Few of them have been beyond that wall, and that fact is terrifying.   --
Dark Horse


"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

407 Actually, I prefer Plato. Aristotle was an ass. Just my opinion.

I also prefer certain works by Locke and Hobbes and excerpts from work by Rousseau.

also Google:
Online Library of Liberty
Liberty Library of. Constitutional Classics

408 Just out of curiosity, did when Crazy Howie said "I hate Republicans and everything they stand for" did he ever back down or apologize?  I'm not talking about a pundit here.  You remember Howie, Democratic presidential candidate and head of the DNC?   You know, "YEEEEEAAAARGH!"

Did the voters recoil in horror, condemning the Democrats to another decade in the wilderness?  See, we can blame the media for that, but I'm thinking that elusive independent voter is much more put off by weasels than people with strong opinions.

409 Warren, at no point have I said anything intellectually dishonest nor did you bother to imply such until I pointed out you have nothing to add to any commentary here except personal attacks.

In fact, in personally attacking me you still didn't bother to include anything substantive.  You just tossed out that I'm "intellectually dishonest" out of nowhere and left it at that.

You bring nothing substantive to the table.  You bring no principle.  You bring no ideology.  You bring no argument.

You add nothing to the debate.  You provide nothing to counter those you disagree with.  You provide nothing to convert your opponents.

Your argument, to the extent it consists of anything, amounts to "I know you are, but what am I?"

I'd be offended if there was anything in your comments in this thread worth listening to.

410 I'm thinking that elusive independent voter is much more put off by weasels than people with strong opinions.

Amen. You could change "elusive independent voters" to just "voters" and be even more right I think.

Also, nice post Howard roark.

411

Actually, I prefer Plato. Aristotle was an ass. Just my opinion.

Well, that's just an awesome opinion to have about Aristotle -- you know, probably one of the top three philosophers of all time, and certainly a better philosopher than Plato.  But Aristotle is apropos because he is recognized for his Logic. 

I don't need to google these guys, I studied them at Cornell (okay, not Cornell), but you should avail yourself of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, or SEP, as it's called by those of us in the know.

412 If Rush had said he hope socialism fails, the media would have put him in the Joe The Plumber category.

Somehow, the economic policies of this administration MUST be demonized.

BHO's administration has been applying pressure to the gas pedal, not the brakes. Its the economic version of unintended acceleration. (The "unintended" portion of that last statement is my only possible foray into the realm of "hope" in this comment).

Who cares, really, if Obama gives Brown a box of DVDs cause Barack's a lame executive. It IS more important the media is exposing Obamanomics. Even if it's done by trying to land one on Rush's chin.

413 I hope his policies don't leave America a smoking ash heap.  How's that?

If that doesn't work, how's this?  I hope the people of this country realize how's he's screwed us when he's laying back enjoying his post rape cigarette.

414

I think the proper response to this dust-up is to laugh at the Democrats' attempt to divide the conservaitives.  Rush speaks for Rush.  I may agree with him sometimes, and I may disagree with him sometimes.  But he has the right to say what he wants.  That the Democrats try to paint Rush as the leader of the Republican party is laughable.  Rush has a large conservative following, me included now, but he doesn't lead the Republican party. 

I'm sure Obama and Emanuel are laughing at how well their strategy has worked to distract us from what they're doing.  What this should do is clarify for us that Republicans do have a leadership problem.  We don't seem to be very unified, and that will bode ill in 2010 if we don't get on rtack.

It's silly of us to argue about what Rush said.  He can say what he wants and we can disagree or not, but don't allow this to cause us to fight amongst ourselves.  And for the record, I don't want Obama's policies to succeed.  After the last eight years of Bush bashing, I've come to realize there are no boundaries that can't be crossed anymore. 

415 This is no longer a matter of Red State vs Blue State, boys and girls. This is about power vs freedom. We, the People, presently have little of the former and we possess only a shadowy illusion of the latter.

Mussolini defined fascism as the marriage between corporations and
government. Check the FEC reports of both your favorite *and* least favorite politicians. Then, take another look at K Street.

The two major political parties, working both together and independently, now offer us a choice: Accept their self-proclaimed - and un-Constitutional - authority to govern every minute of our very lives. or...of beginning a new American Revolution.

We simply have no remaining options, but those two...

 Instead, you choose to argue among yourselves about trifles...and you choose spit in the eye of anyone who disagrees with you over the least of things.

 Personally, I don't care what your education is or where you were educated. I don't care where you live, what kind of car you drive or where you work or shop or what's in your wardrobe. Most of you still think that's important.

 I will remind you that a collar of gold is still the collar of a slave. If the other guy wears a collar of iron, you are no more of a free man than he is.

 You live on credit and own little or nothing outright. You pay the government to live in your house, to drive your vehicles, and use government approved credit to purchase government approved goods and services from others. You declare yourselves to be free, yet must live under 200,000 pages of Federal laws, alone. This does not include the myriad of local, county and state laws and regulations that bind you. Then, you cannot understand why the United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world. ...and you consider yourselves to be citizens of the best and freest nation on earth. Such thinking is either that of a slave or of a child...or of a fool. Your education avails you nothing.

 In the meantime, your nation is about to collapse of it's own weight.

416

I think the popular take for the Republicans is low taxes, and liberty. Period.

I am pro choice because I was a public health nurse and I can tell you there are far worse things than being aborted...I've seen them. That said, I do not want to pay for someone else's abortion...they need to pay so they learn their lesson.  The price of an abortion is cheap compared to head start, school, jail, and health costs of children who's parent does not ake care of them...it's more expedient to kill them before their are born.

Give people their  money, let them spend it. Let people marry whoever they want to up to and including animals...I don't care. No marriage under the age of 16.

417

My take? It's simple. It was not a helpful comment. I will not defend it because I do not have the time or inclination to waste my time on trivialities.

I agree it's trivial...not that it's "not helpful" or hurtful. But... why is there another post on it?

If you want to move on... what are you doing here? Go. Vamoose. Skadoodle.

418

Ace is kind talking about having principles. Most of you lack something in that department. You have ideology. You have beliefs. These are not principles. and you possess no less a desire to impose those ideologies and beliefs on others. Like your ideological opponents, you also seem to think that personal attacks, sophistry and bad syllogisms make up a good argument. Hell, most people calling themselves classical liberals are no different

Frankly I find that 'divisive', 'incendiary', 'not helpful' and I don't think it will play well in Peoria.

(WTF is Peoria? Peoria IL? They can't read anyway.)

This comment is so ridiculously over the top and poorly phrased I must conclude it was only posted for entertainment value.

Please leave the party immediately and cease and desist from either voting republican, or at least talking about it outloud.

P.S. : Anyone who disagrees with me has no principles. And anywho who disagrees with that, is just making ad-hominem arguments.

419 Stop...mis-quoting...Rush...

It's...not..."I want Barack Obama to fail."

It...is...

"I want Barack Obama to fail if his mission is to restructure and reform this country so that capitalism and individual liberty are not its foundation."--Rush Limbaugh

420 Attn Ace, and every other republiCANT to the left of me:


I am a racist. I am a hatemonger. I am a right winger. At least that is what im called by people that disagree with me.
I am all that is big and bad that liberal democrats try to smear me with.

But at least I am not scared.

I got a set of nuts bigger than yours.
I'm not afraid of going head to head with any fucking democrat out there and telling them, "You are wrong, your agenda is wrong, nothing you support is supported by the US Constitution. I swore Allegence to my flag and to my nation and I will not let you win."

You want to hamstring Rush by saying he was wrong?
Fine. Tell me how you are any different from Michael Steel who is now loosing support by RNC for not being a good organizer or talker.

You are the same cut. You would rather hamstring people standing against outright socialism so you can appear to be "open minded" and take the "high road."


News flash, you don't win fights by playing nice.
If you think you aren't in a fight you need to step out of this arena and be a typical apathatic automaton and ignore what is happening around you.


Obama is ASS RAPING YOU and you want people trying to stand up to him to play nice?

The only reason the democrats are beating republiCANTS over the head with rush is because they are making you scurry around and defend yourselves instead of fighting back. Easier for everyone to line up and say, "Yes, we do not agree with a single policy that obama is cramming down our throats and we want him to fail. What policy would any honest republican support? Gun control? Higher taxes? Higher spending? FOCA? Government control over private business? SHOW ME A SINGLE POLICY THAT SUPPORTS THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION HE IS SWORN TO UPHOLD!"
BOOM, fights over.
There is a line in the sand drawn. Figure out which side you are on and stand shoulder to shoulder with the people next to you and dont faint when one of us with more cajones than diplomacy says something that doesnt sound nice. Such as.
I Hope the monkey fails and is IMPEACHED

421 Warren Bonesteel: What you lack in principle, you make up for in neotenous insults and vehemence.

A.  Fuck you and your mother. 

B.  Does my vehemence disturb you?  Does the intensity of my emotion frighten you?  Do my forceful assertions cause you to recoil?  Good.  This is what a free man looks like. 

422 Harry Reid (Senate Majority Leader, senior Dem elected official, selected by Senate Dems to lead, control Senate agenda): "The Surge is a failure" (said before the first troops even arrived) "Clearly, we should cut and run." Dems= nodding agreement; Media= YAWN

Rush (a guy who has a radio show): "I want Obama to fail" (partial soundbite quote, presented out of context). Dems/Media = OMFG!

To me, that sums it all up.

423

Simple way around this Rush problem, imho, but nobody seems to be taking it:

instead of dividing and turning on each other, why not divide and attack the opponent?  Shouldn't the non-Limbaugh-ites of the Republican party take up the tack, that while Limbaugh is representatvie of a voice within the conservative movement, he's  just one and not the head of the GOP -- still, he does have the right to criticize (free speech) and some of his criticisms of the Obama administration are legitimate.  And by the way, why are the Dems (the far left of them) gunning at a radio talk show host? Are they giving us distractions?  Come to think of it, if they feel so strongly about this, why not actually debate the real GOP/RNC? -- and it would be very helpful if they would enumerate the ways the administration/Dems are using this to distract from  some important problems (enumerate some of those too).

Haven't they ever heard of a pincers movement, or envelopment?

 

But what do I know?  I'm just an illiterate rube from south of Peoria. (yes, take that wanker).

424

"You guys say you want to oppose everything Obama does -- how about starting by opposing the menu of conversation topics he's cooked up for you?"

I'd rather focus on opposing the socialist ideology he's trying to make into a domestic and foreign policy.

 

425

There are just 2 things I say when a lib brings this stupid shit up.

1. Rush Limbaugh is a talk radio host. I then offer a wager of $100 that he won't run for president in 2012.

2. Obama is the first president since Nixon to have an enemies list. The conversation always ends at this point.

426

Shouldn't the non-Limbaugh-ites of the Republican party take up the tack, that while Limbaugh is representatvie of a voice within the conservative movement, he's  just one and not the head of the GOP

If they weren't the stupid side, we wouldn't have to fight them, eh?

But what do I know?  I'm just an illiterate rube from south of Peoria. (yes, take that wanker).

Peoria, Illinois? You.. people have internet? And you figgured out how to use it?

I shall alert the anthropologists immediately.

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This is what a free man looks like. 

Nonsense. You are number 6. Who is number 1?

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Steyn on asshole:
The Frum worldview appears to boil down to the Park Avenue hostess's insistence that you can never be too rich or too thin: Sarah Palin fails on the first count, Rush fails on the second, but our beautifully bespoke President is just right.

429

Ace:

You are sounding more and more like a politician all the time. I am going to have to disagree with you on this point. Mainly that the hill is not worth defending. Here's why:

The Obamaites, have made a principal part of their platform since the election, indeed, within hours of victory, that, "What America needs now is a successful Presidency" This is a cleverly constructed sentiment that begs to be agreed with from the basis of reasonability however, to be in agreement you must also tacitly agree with "Failure of the Presidency would be bad for America". We have heard the sentiment from the DNC callers on radio over and over again. The "give him a chance" crowd, followed by the "your being too hard on him" junkies, rounded out with the "wouldn't you agree that it is best for America that the Obama presidency is a success?" Rush’s comment was convenient for Obama, but it was only a matter of time before he or Sean made a comment that played so well into the argument that the left is making. With the barage of calls on the subject they received.

We have been losing this argument since November, and the Dems with their sycophantic press have successfully made the success of the man synonymous with success of the nation, and as such all opposition is now party posturing rather than principled opposition and is viewed as destructive to the State. So it seems Obama has taken a play from the Reagan playbook, long before it is “Morning again in America”. If we do not deal with this argument, the negative sentiment toward opposition will hang around our necks like an albatross, emptying our arguments as “wanting America to fail” and pushing Republicans toward useless moderation, or complete ineffectiveness. We are arguing for the right to disagree on principal, and to not owe our loyalty to a man, but to a nation. That hill is worth defending.

 

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431 The MainStreamBlogosphere has officially jumped the shark!!!!!!

432 Until Steele starts ignoring third-string talk-show invitations to concentrate on fixing the RNC and our broken-ass easy-target primary system, we're fucked. Doing media outreach for a broken party is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

433 It's horrifying to think that an idiot like Christopher Buckley once swam around in Bill Buckley's nutsack.

434

What a remarkable column.  "Hey all you (who?) guys, stop talking about Rush".  Dude, I believe you and Allah and the rest of the "don't talk about Rush" whiners are then only ones left talking about Rush.

435 I think we're done here.

436 Rush was right - Steele's job isn't to spar with lefties on TV, but to put talented people in the Republican organization to replace those he fired so we stand a chance in 2 years.  Also to improve the primary process if possible.  I hope Steele is busy working on that now.

I think Steele should have told Hughley to contact Rush if he was confused by what he meant.  No Repub talking head should waste time trying to explain the statements of Rush or any other conservative.   Imagine if lefties were invited on TV for days on end to explain what that Miller woman meant calling for Rush's death.  It seems that sort of hate speech is acceptable from the left, but wishing for the defeat of socialist policies from the right isn't.  It's just an effort by the left to shut down conservative opinion.

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494 Cheap replica watches and replica watches 100% copy replica watches of the previous omega watches model: the famous Manchester Logo is located at 3 and the cartier watches chronograph 45-minute breitling watches at 9 with orange figures. Football fans can use the very special 45-minute chronograph to measure the halves of a football match. Black patek philippe hour hand and minute hand features yellow luminescent coating. The hour makers, chronograph audemars piguet and the first 15-minute scale of the tag heuer chronograph counter is montblanc watches presented in eye-catching rolex red. Bright Yellow movado watches tones are found on the minute track, date bvlgari watches rolex on sale.

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498 Factors Replica Watches About The Rolex replica watches Oyster The Oyster is so closely get in touch with Rolex, and it is inevitably that some people think these are the only Replica watches Rolex manufacture. Others suppose that there is a single Oyster watch. But as a matter of fact, the name Oyster does not actually meant for a rolex Watches particular watch you can buy rolex watches or even to a series but to a type of case that available in some of the Rolex ranges. History The Oyster case was first released in 1926. The objective was to protect the workings of the watch from dust and moisture. Early watches were far from waterproof. The Oyster tag heuer Watchescase was an tag heuer watches innovative design to eliminate these problems. It had a new double locking crown that screwed into place. It has been compared to the hatch on a submarine. Like a submarine, the Oyster case was waterproof. In 1927 Mercedes Gleitze swam the English breitling Watches Channel breitling watches . Before she set off she was presented with a Rolex Oyster. When she arrived, the watch was still working perfectly. The resulting publicity gave the new case a massive boost. Why is it called Oyster? Legend has it that Hans cartier Watches Wilsdorf cartier watches, who invented the Oyster, chose the name because the new case reminded him of the difficulty he had experienced prising open oysters at dinner. Since then the Oyster has further, particularly advanced. Many Oyster watches today are omega Watches perpetual-self-winding, in other omega watches words, it does not require to expose the mechanism to the outside world in order to wind it. The Osyter Perpetual is one of the toughest, most durable, most reliable watches (under truly adverse conditions). It is probably the best mechanical watch money can buy.