1 Wow, Ace, you were much nicer about this Birther BS than I would have been.

2

I view this as unserious stuff when we'e got to be deadly serious indeed

Bingo.

Not that humor isn't a great tool in debating issues. So use it to make a point about an ISSUE. A CURRENT issue. I hear there are several.

3 I guess it's too much to ask that the POTUS prove that he's eligible for the gig.

4 This is the kind of shit that will never die. We have much larger fish to fry. Stick to the real issue of how we're being bankrupted by this Marxist posing as our president, and why it doesn't have to happen.

5 Man that was a dumb thing to say.

6 To what end, and why push it?

To the extent it can be pushed it is pushed by private lawsuit.

7 I guess it's too much to ask that the POTUS prove that he's eligible for the gig.

I can't get a driver's license without presenting a birth certificate, but he can become President.

Well, we certainly wouldn't want to distract him or anything.

8 True, Congress can define what a 'natural-born citizen' is, so we can't 'win' on that point. But it's a good short-hand for the incuriousity (sp? not even sure if that's a word) of the press and the secrecy of his perpetual campaign.

We have no idea where He came from, where he's been, what he's done, whom he follows. Why pretend that we do?

9 Even if they kept up a totally respectable tone and talked nothing but wonk they'd get nothing from the media.I'm not saying it's productive but a little anger and snark might help build esprit.

10

Our economy is melting down around us.  Obama is pushing for the largest tax and spend agenda in the history of this country.  The CIA has already outraged Argentina and Hillary has pissed off the Joos and this is what they focus on?

Super.  That move back to the islands can't come soon enough.

11 This is a way to pull the military away from the faux CINC--once the economy gets really bad, he'll lose support daily, and we can use these allegations against him.  Anything that undermines him, that puts a shadow of doubt in the minds of the populace is all right by me.  But I agree that it needs to be kept on the fringes. 

12 What happened w/ Argentina?

Obama would be making us just as broke if he was from Muncie, IN and his birth made national news recorded by all major networks.

13 Well, I would rather we find ineligibility loop holes in a few hundred house reps and a couple dozen or so senators.

14

What happened w/ Argentina?

Panetta made some off-hand remark about how we had to keep our eye on Argentina, Venezulea and Ecudaor because economic turmoil could bring on instability in those countries.

Argentina was not amused.  At all.

15 OT but Pet Wehner on The Corner just quoted Paul Krugman on the budjet,"this budget looks very,very good".That is very,very frightening........

16 Compared to the Leftist fever swamp of grand conspiracies of mass murder of fellow Americans in pursuit of oil money, I think wanting to see a document that has remained conspicuously hidden is a pretty mild charge to bear.

Frankly, I'd like to see more curiosity about who funded the fucker's campaign.

17 So, today we have real Obama shining thru,  (all via the LGF Linkviewer, its nice to have other like minded people read all the stuff you don't have time for...)

- Whacko Chas Freeman as NIC Chairman, at Frontpage
- Whacko John Holdren as Science Advisor, at Jewish World Review

of course, unconfirmable positions.  It's weird to find myself siding with Sen Byrd, but Obama is building a shadow government outside of Congressional oversight.  Not that, Reid or Pelosi have the balls to call him on it, or cut the funding for the extra-constitutional posts.

18 Huckabee's jokes were better.  And that's saying something!

19

I can't get a driver's license without presenting a birth certificate, but he can become President.

We've got an official, stamped, AAA-rated certificate of live birth that says he was born in Hawaii. Anyone who says he has to provide more than that is a fucking artard.

20 Frankly, I'd like to see more curiosity about who funded the fucker's campaign.

Hell.  Yes. 

21

Ace, considering that you told us all in September/October that if the GOP doesn't get on board immediately with the "emergency" bailout, we would be in for a massive socialist victory in November...

I'll take this opinion with a grain of salt. No offense.

22 The problem is that the media wont look into ANYTHING about this guy.Meanwhile there will be more hearings about the CIA's secret prisons under the evil Bush.....grrr...

23

I'm sorry, where's the 65/35 split? That's in our favor on bailouts, the spending bill, amnesty, gay marriage (well, if you're against), partial-birth and late-trimester abortion (again, depending on where you fall), spending/budget cuts, and taxes.

The problem isn't that the PUBLIC doesn't agree with conservatives on this. The problems is that the REPUBLICANS don't agree with conservatives on this, and the public sees that. In the race to Socialism, they're betting on the strong horse.

For my part, they're following Mencius Moldbug on that. He endorsed Obama because a vote for O! was a vote for complete societal collapse, and he wanted Rome to burn.

24 Just a question...but where were all the folks who 'just want him to prove he's eligible' when any other President was elected?

Have any of you seen either George Bush's birth certificate? How about Clinton's or Reagans?

Now you can say, 'well there was never any questions raised'. Okay but remember one of the first (if not the first) person to raise this question was Jerome Corsi. He's also interested in the arguments of 9/11 Truthers and has appeared on Alex Jone's show (sorry, NYT link).

Do we need to take those questions seriously too?

I don't think any President has to say 'how high?' when some nutjob says 'jump'.

25 We are all Ann Coulter now.

26 The link to Patterico is bust.

27

Gabriel:

No. We have a scanned photocopy of a probably doctored certificate of live birth (not birth certificate - they're different documents) that was only released on the Soros/Annenburg-run FactCheck.org. Obama paid almost $1 million in legal fees to keep from providing his real birth certificate.

28 John Bolton's Mustache of White Bushy Justice was unable to control its host organism ...

I think it might be the other way around.  I can't think of any host organism that could control that mustache.

29

In a perfect world, The Vapid One° would have to show his real birth certificate to each and every one of us personally.

I have about as much hope of doing both of the last set of twins in Playboy as I do of Obama showing his BC. That doesn't stop his refusal to prove his constitutional fitness for office from being extremely suspicious. In order for that issue to gain any traction, serious people (read the SCOTUS) would have to request it.

Somehow, I just don't see that happening.

The twins either. On the bright side, the sun is above the yardarm, so we can drink now.

30 It may be frivolous, but yesterday or the day before Drudge had a story of a soldier suing to find out the truth.

To me, that makes it a little more important.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=89941

31 Real problem with the nirther thing is twofold.  One, his background has large holes and inconsistencies which can be exploited - whether true or not; and Second, the entire lack of standing issue needs to be addressed.  Why can't Soros himself run in 2012; nobody is allowed to check?

32 Why should we be policing this? You're thinking there is some way that the goings-on at CPAC would be favorably and forcefully reported upon, and to our advantage. That won't happen. They *have* to paint the birth question or the campaign contributions question or the whole fiscal discipline-thru-spending outrage as crazy talk.

A perfectly scripted conference which hits every single point deemed correct would not make the airwaves at all. It would disappear.

33 I don't believe we got our asses kicked on the issues. We lost because a starry eyed electorate thought it would be nice to have an African American president and besides, Democrats and Republicans are all the same, right?
Their eyes are being opened and they will be shocked at what is coming if they can see behind the MSM cover provided to this radical Alinskyite. Which is not at all certain.
Ah, who cares where he was born, the Constitution is meaningless today - Hillary's emolument, the Census Bureau move, government by "czars," a representative for DC, and any number of other FAILS which I can't think of at the moment.
Well and truly fuk'd we are.

34

Drew M:

John McCain released his birth certificate. And there was no question about where Reagan or either of the Bushes were born. Obama's paternal grandmother claims he was born in Kenya, and there are no records released stating he was born in Hawaii. He's claimed to have been born at two different hospitals in Honolulu. And his mother became an Indonesian citizen when he was 6, and he used a personal Indonesian passport to travel to Pakistan when he was 20. There are legitimate questions about his citizenship status, whether he is a Kenyan or Indonesian citizen.

35 The only evidence that he might not be born in the US is that he has engaged in such machinations to avoid proving it. He won't release the BC but will surrepticiously send a COLB to Kos.

I want to see the academic transcripts.

If you want to resolve the BC issue for 2012, just pass a law that says your state will not permit electors to vote for a candidate who has not provided a BC to the Sec of State.

I don't mind if marginal figures make jokes about the Messiah's secretive virgin birth and I don't mind if people condemn it.

36 Patterico is a whiny bitch...just sayin'.

37 Republicans are going to get their asses handed to them again if they keep up with crap like this.  It has a tendency to stick in people's minds.  Stay focused, stay on message.  Don't attack the person, attack the policy.  Don't criticize without spelling out your own plan. 

In desperate times, people, guided by self-preservation and self-interest will do desperate things.  The idea is to present them with concrete alternatives.  Hope and Change don't play well when you've been on the dole for months and no prospects of getting off.

My brother went to work today, found 100 employees laid off (aka fired).  Seniority didn't count, position didn't count, top management and workers alike got cut.  Just ....  like  .....  that.  Those people are not going to be interested in Obama's birth certificate, what Michelle is wearing, who's screwing who.  They want someone who will do something to get them employed again.

38

You know, I'm becoming more & more convinced that had Ace, AllahP, EdM, and Politico been around on August 11, 1984, they would've collectively clasped their own throats & fainted w/attendant hot flashes.

JebbejusHFCrap! It was a throwaway line! Have "conservitive" bloggers become so correct that nothing can be said w/o the "we're above that" attitude?

Feh.

39 And there was no question about where Reagan or either of the Bushes were born.
Posted by: Ella at February 27, 2009 11:54 AM (jeP9I)

Yeah, that's kind of my point...look at who started asking the question and tell me if you are comfortable in that company.

There are lots of folks 'just asking questions' about 9/11 (Rossie O'Donnell comes to mind). Do we need to take them seriously too?

40 Bingo, Garand.

41

The reasons conservatives care about this, just like the DC voting issue, is that the Constitution expressly addresses the requirements of eligibility for president.

It's ironic the theory about Obama's birthplace is consigned to the "truther" dustbin, while the left can, with a straightface engage in hyperbolic speculation about Palin's daughter and meet little criticism.  Let's assume he was NOT born in the US, the left would still consign it to the "truther" dustbin and laugh the issue off as an irrelevant remnant of a bygone era like the rest of the Constitution.  I've seen no effort by Obama to settle the issue; which is a very simple proposition, provided that he WAS born in the U.S.  And, I've seen no comprehensive debunking of Jerome Corsi's extensively documented biography which lends credence to the theory that Obama is not a natural born American citizen. 

I also want to know where the 65%-35% split you cite comes from Ace.  Even if you have some briefing from the beltway conservatives documenting this split, I certainly don't trust that crowd (elements of which were singing Obama's praises) to accurately measure the pulse of the majority.   I go to school with a lot of CPAC perennials, and I can tell you that version of conservatism is not always consistent with true conservative principles (Gingrich's embrace of global warming, for example). Sounds to me like you may be going native. 

42

Someone needs to say it! "Hey Zero! Where's your proof of citizenship?" should be the opening line in every republican speech.

If it bothers other republicans, you aren't really a republican, or steward of the constitution.

43 Look, the best way for the GOP is proceed is to attack the budget/economic plans of the Democrats and highlight the positives of an alternate plan that IMPROVES the lives of moderate to low income people WITHOUT having them rely on government handouts.  I remember hearing a year or so ago that blacks were among the fastest risers in small businesses.  I wonder how that is working out for them now???  Seems to me a golden opportunity to highlight small business growth in the black community using GOP economic plans to gain inroads into the black vote.

44 @ 19  and others.
I think that retarded is taking this mans word on anything without proper verification.  Riddle me this:  If you went to 3 colleges, was president of the Harvard Law review, and you ran for president, would you release your college records?

So i say you are retarded and those who wanna bash Obama for not telling the truth on so many issues, but accepting the fact that he has told the truth on this one.  talk about brilliant.  Like most, i believe all avenues should be persued, policy, and person issues, especially on that may reveal this guy wasnt even eligable in the first place.  Everyone, Dem and Repub. or i should say any true American should want to make sure that our president, is indeed born here and a NBC.  Maybe if more of us did focus on this issue earlier,  we wouldnt be going through this bullshit O is doing at this very moment, but no, we still have those Repub. pussies, some of them here, that want to just focus on policy.  To them i say, incase you fucking missed it,  democrats arent exactly the most honest people on the planet, especially this latest crew, not to mention almost a super majority, policy issues over the next two years will be trivial and small, to which i also say
THANK GOD FOR THE "NIRTHERS" 
for you pussies who screamed and hollered that you wanted him vetted and never was, thanks for giving up.  That COLB is not a bc you dumb fucks

45 For what it's worth, let me clarify my feelings on Birtherism.

I don't think it's likely that Barack is not "natural born" or whatever the test is. I do think it's possible, and possible enough that his very obvious efforts to hide discovery raise my suspicions.

The man has had an entire career of ward-heeling and socialist agitating disappeared from his record. Why is it so crazy to ask legitimate questions about his birth?

46 People still take Gingrich seriously, post-couch?

47 President Joe Biden.  Careful what you ask for.

48 I also do think it's a throwaway line.  But the CPAC organizers should know better.

Democrats are apparently the natural party to control the House.  Recall that they have controlled the HoR for at least 70 of the last 88 years (IIRC)  Let's not make the dumb mistakes.

49

You know...I've reconsidered my position.

I agree that his place of birth is an irrelevant distraction, just like his affiliation with ACORN, Jeremiah Wright, Bill Ayers, who paid for his Harvard education...you're right that should ALL be off limits.  Let's start the clock at his great speechifying at the Dem convention of 2004.

Good idea...this business of establishing minimum Constitutional requirements to hold office is tedious and distracting.  

50 ok, it's silly, in fact crazy to want to know if our President was actually born in this country, so ridiculous to obey the law...

51 Posted by: tachyonshuggy at February 27, 2009 12:07 PM (TXp3z)

Here's my answer to that, for what it's worth...

He released the document that anyone gets when they apply for a birth certificate from the state. Yes, I know it's a certificate of live birth but that's what they give you. That's what DMV accepts, that's what the military accepts, that's what the Department of State accepts for a passport.

But that's not enough. No, the birthers say, 'give us the original! We know you are hiding something! We know it!'.

They won't accept what every government agency will accept because they are sure there's something sinister behind it. Never mind their lack of evidence, they just want to ask more and more questions.

That's where it starts getting crazy.

52

"But the CPAC organizers should know better."

Why? Does CPAC represent the RNC?

Sometimes a line is just a line.  Throwing a few around certainly hasn't hurt the other side.

J

53 You know what? Obama's paranoia about releasing his birth certificate, his college transcripts, his medical records... ALL of that deserves to be ridiculed.

His stance on this stuff only fuels this sort of speculation, undermining confidence at a time when it is in desperately short supply. It's an inexcusable & bizarre self- indulgence.

54 He's claimed to have been born at two different hospitals in Honolulu. And his mother became an Indonesian citizen when he was 6, and...

Again, how does this win us an election? Is that our platform for the next 4 years? "Our opponent isn't a US citizen"? It won't and that's what Ace is pointing out. It's not a strategy; it's a guaranteed route to obscurity.

55 Yeah, what Chris Dodd said!

Isn't a birth certificate a public record, subject to the Freedom of Informatio Act?

56

"It might be a good topic to discuss privately but not so much in public fora."

Yes, best not to make the proles restive (swirls brandy).

/CPAC

57

Funny, the State of TN wouldn't take my state issued BC "card" as proof. They wanted the long form before issuing my DL.

To all you pussies worried about a 65/35 split - fuck_off you wortheless pieces of shit!  

It isn't a throwaway line, it is the core question!

58

No, Drew, you're the one making some sort of link between a throwaway line & another group. 

We got it. Obama was legally elected. Now lighten up. Tell a joke @ Obama & laugh. Your head won't crack open - honest.

J

59 Gab,

A Certificate of Live Birth from Hawaii does not mean you were born in Hawaii, it can also mean a citizen of Hawaii attested to the fact that you were born in Hawaii. 

But, that is all meaningless if, the Government of Kenya in the throes of some future dispute with the US, puts a sealed folder on the Ambassador's desk saying its the hospital records of Obama's birth with sworn statements from all involved, unless the US compromises.  Does Obama blink or allow Hawaii to open the records?

... or Pakistan says stop using UAVs to kill Al-Queda in the FATA or we will release this photocopy of your Indonesian passport and pictures of you praying at a mosque.  Does Obama put the country or his Presidency first?

... or Cuba wants the embargo lifted and offers to destroy their records of him as a Weathermen associate and friend of Ayers in NYC.  Do you trust Obama to take the high road?

In each of these scenarios the facts don't have to be true, but because of the way Obama has handled the matters - doubt exists and doubt can be exploited. 

60 @ 49,

well said, tons of talk among these "repubs" about constitution this and constitution that.  But when it comes to one of the most sacred institutional requirement, it's distracting. 
Drew, if there was a question about Bush, or Regs birth place, i would want the same thing, proof, but there wasnt a question was there?  Didnt think so.  I hate when people try to compare the past with the now and claim it as somehow unfair or justified.  Like life and politics is somehow fair.  If that were the case, McCain would be president right now.  Not some clown who we know not a damn thing about, the least of which, where he was born.....

61

the only problem Drew, no one has seen Obama's certificate of live birth except the ppl who tell us "everything is awesome, trust me" ... i don't.

 

62 I'm really glad Palin decided to skip this thing if this is the kind of nuttery going on there.  I'm not saying that the birth certificate issue shouldn't be pursued, but let those who are already marginalized for other reasons like Berg and the World Nut Daily people do it.

63 I'm not saying the citizenship issue will win an election. But bringing Obama down to Earth by openly mocking his paranoia about it just might help dim the halo effect of his aura...

64 Since when did ALLAHPUNDIT start taking over Ace's blogging activities?  Man up!  I had to present a birth certificate to get into fucking LITTLE LEAGUE BASEBALL!  Why is "The One" fighting tooth and nail to *not* reveal his?  I am not saying he is not a citizen, but if someone goes out of their way to hide something I think there is a reason, especially with this bunch.

65

Someone needs to say it! "Hey Zero! Where's your proof of citizenship?" should be the opening line in every republican speech.

If it bothers other republicans, you aren't really a republican, or steward of the constitution.

Permanent Crank-Minority status, here we come!

Isn't a birth certificate a public record, subject to the Freedom of Informatio Act?

No. Private information exception.

 

66 Fucking sock

67 [whatever that was, it was annoying - Trollbusters]

68 Without judging the veracity of the charge, I'm just a bit confused about how this harms the GOP? Ace goes on about the GOP got their asses handed to them in '06 and '08. Does anyone remember the the FUCKING head of the DNC suggesting that the sitting president had knowledge beforehand of the attacks that occurred on 09-11-2001? And wasn't that the same dems that were giving out the ass whippings the last 2 election cycles? Where were the Dems with the remonstrations about how they had to be grownups? Nope, they peddled enytihng and everything to get back in power.

I may be way off base here, but I think if any lesson is to learned from the last 2 elections, it's that one should vilify the opponent by any means necessary.

69 I don't mind bringing it up if it's done in a funnier way.

I'd make it more about his arrogance and the willingness of the media to give him a pass on just about everything.

I have to disagree with this statement:

people are not going to be interested in Obama's birth certificate, what Michelle is wearing, who's screwing who.  They want someone who will do something to get them employed again.

Republicans aren't in a position to get anyone employed again. Do we care what Michelle is wearing? Sure, if we can paint her as a materialistic, elitist twat who sends staffers to fashion shows on the government dime while people are losing their jobs.

It's all about the narrative. Watch, study, and learn from the left. It's one thing they do well.

70

"Permanent Crank-Minority status, here we come!"

Seriously...what good are constitutional principles if they don't win elections! 

/CPAC

 

71

So how about making a list of things one's allowed to discuss, in humorous or serious terms, Ace? Maybe you and AP can work together on it at CPAC?

And there's already a full day of starts at HotAir from just today alone: you can't mock Michelle; can't support Joe; can't use a famous movie reference in re. to Steele (even though the Left gets away with calling him a house n*gger without a problem); nothing about anywhere, any place getting nuked (not by our enemies or nuking the enemy, like Mecca); or quoting Rush; Rule No. 6, no fag comments; and Rule No.7, there is no Rule No.7.

And maybe invent a buzz-word to promote the list, maybe something like "critical correctness". As in "We must always strive to make the critically correct comments so that our enemies won't be able to turn our comments against us."

72 Yeah cus, we saw what that crazy 9/11 truther talk did for the democrats, gave them "Permanent Crank-Minority status"  And in case you missed it, WE ARE ALREADY IN THE SUPER MINORITY FOR LETTING SHIT JUST.....GO....AND NOT FIGHTING BACK. 

Lol, these people, smart

73 As Dennis Prager says:
      "There are 2 parties in America: the dangerous one and the stupid one.  I am a member of the stupid one."

74

Uh, Gabby, old man, (said w/polite accent), the entire Palin/Trig/baby issue certainly ensured the other sides' "crank - minority status"....

Or Not.

75 It will not be productive to go after the administration on things that Obama has already been given a pass on.  That includes any questions on his citizenship and his affiliations.  You have to attack the new stuff, though you can reference older things as secondary considerations.  Go after the new proposed budget, and emphasize that.  You can then point to the spendulus and tie the old to the new.

Now, if you can get him on the ropes, then you can hammer away with the stuff the media ignored during the election process, but again, only as secondary punches.

76

this issue right here is our problem, if this were turned around and it was a Repub Pres who had questions surrounding his/her birth records the libs would stick to it like glue, they would hammer, and hammer away at it no matter if thier accusations were true or not (i.e. Sarah Palin)

that's why they keep winning and we keep losing, they have the balls to be "crazy" we don't, we just sit here while the Ghost of Che shits all over us

77 Real world...if Obama were gettable on this, Hillary would have got him already. If he were in fact ineligible, and the evidence was there to be had, what are the chances that Team Clinton (a) wouldn't have found it out in opposition research or (b) would have found it and not used it to run him out of the race? Given what hardballers the folks in Team Clinton are, I'd have to say, in both cases, none.

78 "This stuff isn't outrageous or worthy of condemnation. But we just got our asses kicked big time and really should be focusing like lasers on the real, live issues."

The threat from terrorists and/or terrorist-sponsoring nations like Iran isn't "real" or "live" anymore?  Wow, Obama truly is Messiah, isn't he?

Having watched the Bolton video, it doesn't look like he was trying to make a joke or get a laugh by using Chicago.  Chicago is a realistic target for such an attack.

Remember this:  we were damn lucky that only 3,000 people died in New York on 9/11.  That was a miracle.  If the timing had been just slightly later, that number could easily have been 30,000 or higher.  If the buildings hadn't come straight down but tipped and hit other buildings, the body count could have been astronomical.

Obama is blind to this.

79

Have "conservitive" bloggers become so correct that nothing can be said w/o the "we're above that" attitude?

Assuming your question wasn't rhetorical, the answer is yes. Yes, they have.

This birth issue isn't the ditch to die in, but the point remains: the whole passive kaffeeklatsch that the GOP has become is really fucking pathetic. Is there not one Republican congressman whose self-respect compels him to simply say "I cannot be party to what this nation's government is doing. I resign." Ironically, in so doing, he'd cause a bunch of "conservatives" to whine and carp about how they're going to fill his abandoned seat.

Is Michael Steele too polite to buy t.v. time to fight this mess? Has Bobby Jindal got the kind of fire and indignation that speaks for conservatives who've already had enough? Fuck "policy wonk;" we need a badass ball-cutter right now, a GOP Frank Rizzo. Arlen Specter hasn't been tarred and feathered out of the party? Snowe and Collins haven't gotten firm rebukes from the GOP?

Forest for the trees. At this rate, we deserve the ass-kicking we're gonna get in two years.

80 I just find it amazing that "the most transparent administration in history" would not even release Obama's birth certificate. Why, you'd think it might show his slut mom got knocked up by a card-carrying American black communist photographer during her nudie photo shoot or something, and that his whole "Obama" affectation is so much hyper-liberal bullshit.

Just sayin'...

81

No, cranky, sometimes you have to crank it up.  You want to win? Then fight.  The ones worried about fighting fair?  They're called losers.

J

82

STOP FIGHTING THE LAST BATTLE.

The campaign is over. They won. Fuck the birth certificate crap. The Dems would love  nothing more than for us to keep bitching about that.

One reason we lost was getting side tracked on all of this crap, while the Dems ran away with the big issues. We have enough material to work with, issues-wise. It's more difficult than the conspiracy shit, but it's work that has to be done.

83 Zod, I'm afraid that hot coffee will soon be banned @ CPAC - too hot to handle & all that, you know...

84 Yeah, that's kind of my point...look at who started asking the question and tell me if you are comfortable in that company.

Good grief, DrewM, there was no question because they had released their college transcripts and their military records. As in, things that certified a) where they were born and b) their current citizenship. Reagan, in particular, had been in the public eye since the 1930s. Bush Sr.'s father was a prominent politician and diplomat in the 1920s, and his son's birth was advertised.

That is not so much the case with Obama. And I don't care who all else believes it. Obama himself is trying to hide something because he will not release any documents which show citizenship or nationality, including all school and college transcripts and his birth certificate. He doesn't even have a private passport; he travels on his diplomatic one, where you don't need to present credentials.

The fact that he is at least appearing to flout on of the most basic rules in the Constitution doesn't matter to you? Geez. I'll be 32 in 2012, but can I run for President as long as I don't have to prove my age? Are you cool with that?

85 Im thinking the one thing that slipped the mind of some,  the applause dude got when he mentioned the birth orgin being in question. 

86 So, what are you going to do, since you're so certain that Obama was born elsewhere? 

Fly over to Honolulu and raid the State Archives?  Demand the FEC invalidate a Presidential Election?  Try to citizen's arrest Obama?

Don't begin to delude yourselves into thinking that he's the literal Manchurian Candidate

We laugh at the 9/11 cranks and the Illuminati cranks, let's not become them.

87 Drew,

There were questions raised about John McCain birth.  He addressed them before running by passing a resolution through Congress.  Obama tried to tag onto that bill, but was blocked by HRC.

A COLB is not acceptable for many government positions, it does not prove your location of birth because it can relate to a birth record that can be "attested to" by a witness up to one year after the birth.  This happens all of the time, it is not unique.  That fact is on the long form, and if you want certain clearances or access - that fact is part of your background investigation.

In fact, I suspect that is what happened.  As a mixed race birth, to an unwed mother, in the counter culture milieu of 1960's Hawaii - he was not born in a hospital, and his birth record was entered by his mother or grandmother.  Why would be controversial is confusing?

88

Yeah, CJ, 'cause bitching @ 2nd term Bush was a real loser for the other side...

 

Feh.

89 It's stupid and pointless to keep harping on this issue. Yeah, from an academic POV I'm curious about why Obama's been less than forthcoming about this stuff. It doesn't matter. He's our elected President, and all the Birther wet dreams in the world won't change that. And it only weakens our public face when we have to respond to immediately relevant Constitutional issues, like the House seat for DC they just made up out of nowhere.

Conservatives need to learn how to let go of this sort of self-destructive obsession. We can't win like that. Unlike the left, we don't have a sympathetic media establishment happy to ignore, lie about, or explain away our side's stupid mistakes or irrational obsessions. We don't get to play the game by the same rules our opponents used for the last 8 years. Is that fair? No. But once upon a time, conservatives were the hardheaded realists who understood that the world is not fair. We can remember that and win, or whine about it and watch them win.

90 I agree, though, that what the RNC really needs to do is run ads scaring the BeJesus out of the American public about Obama's plan to socialize America.

And where is the outrage over the Constitutional Violation of giving Washington DC two Senators and a House seat, when the amendment to make it a state failed?

When are blogs going to even talk about this issue, after Obama signs the bill into law? It just passed the Senate yesterday, by the way!

91 Again, what's wrong with providing it if you know it's there?

It's not like asking for pictures of the delivery. It's there and the only thing preventing its release is Obama's say-so.

I remember Vince Foster. There was an industry around it. Serious non-Corsi-types use the phrase "Fort Marcy Park" to mean a place you go to but never return.

In spite of it all (and there were real conspiracies surrounding Vince) we won the Congress.

There would be nothing wrong with the phrase "As secret as Obama's BC" entering the lexicon. Just don't fool yourself thinking he wasn't born in Hawaii.

92 Techie @ 86

Yeah, we laughed and they're now in control of the Executive and the Legislative Branch of the Fed. Boy, weren't those people seriously fucking deranged.

93 @ 77, are you seriously suggesting that we base our opposition research off what the Clintons may or may not have done, once again, BRILLIANT!!!
So i guess you are relying on what the democrats do.  I'm at a lose for words on that one, regardless of the BC issue. 

94 77 Real world...if Obama were gettable on this, Hillary would have got him already. If he were in fact ineligible, and the evidence was there to be had, what are the chances that Team Clinton (a) wouldn't have found it out in opposition research or (b) would have found it and not used it to run him out of the race? Given what hardballers the folks in Team Clinton are, I'd have to say, in both cases, none.

Posted by: Rich Fader at February 27, 2009 12:26 PM (mKga2)

Good point. 

95 Posted by: Brian Klaus at February 27, 2009 12:22 PM (xFpEs)

This article is about Putin, with names changed to relate to Obama.  Nice try.

96 Me afraid

such big letters

Get off the fucking internet you fucking asshole.

97 We don't get to play the game by the same rules our opponents used for the last 8 years
Thats that roll over and die mentality, which is exactly what is wrong with the party.  We need to create our own narrative and our own rules.  Case and point, nobody would know about the BC issue if it werent for the internet and the blogs on it. 

98 HERE's the bottom line: we need to fight and bitch and scream about EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING.

How do you think the Democrats temper-tantrumed their way into power?

We've always been the side of self-restrained and politeness. That's called "losers" these days.

99

"Don't attack the person, attack the policy.  Don't criticize without spelling out your own plan"

 

Yeah,we all know that does'nt work.The Dems must of had thier ass handed to them last election.Right?

Why won't Repubs/conservatives fight as hard as libs do?I'm not advocating lying or anything but as long as we are squeemish about how we go about beating them about thier heads we will be at a huge disadvantage.

 

100

I'm not saying that going after Obama's birth certificate is a winning strategy or even any kind of strategy. (I think the Constitution matters, but, whatever.)

What infuriates me, though, is for Obama to so obviously lie about something, whatever it is, and for people like Ace and Allah and Gabriel to say that calling it a lie is a conspiracy theory. So, parroting a lie is the way to go? If there are questions (regardless of strategy), it's just simply too much to ask them, because, hey, it's old news, so let's just accept it as truth and move on?

You people bug me. It's the same kind of mindset about the Jenin massacre. It doesn't matter that it's a lie, it sort of feels like it's real, so I'm going to act like it's real, because being true doesn't matter as long as it feels real and only a minority point out there's something that spliced together funny. Effing kooky fringe.

101 Last post meant for now non-existent one.

Must post faster!

102

85#

exactly, spontaneous and unscripted applause, i'm not sure where Barry was born, but i'd sure like to know, the Founding Fathers thought it was an important enough issue to include in the Constitution, i'll follow their lead

103 Yeah, c'mon people, this birth certificate stuff, even if it's not nonsense, is not going to go anywhere.  The vast, vast majority of the people in this country accept that he is our elected President.  As does Congress and the Supreme Court.

What do you hope to achieve?  Say you find out that by some technicality he is arguably ineligible under the Constitution, what then?  John McCain is President?  Evict everyone in the executive branch and put the country on hold for 3 months while we do a switch?  And how do you get there, by suing him in court?  How long do you think that's going to take?  Is John Roberts, the justice who swore him in, going to preside over the final appeal?  Please.  This is on the same level as those whackos trying to prove that the income tax is illegal.  Not. Going. To. Happen.

104

Uh, Gabby, old man, (said w/polite accent), the entire Palin/Trig/baby issue certainly ensured the other sides' "crank - minority status"....

Or Not.

Yeah, I couldn't believe how the Democratic leadership keeps going on about that or being introduced at events by folks talking about that.

...wait, that's never happened? Oh. It's just some creeps on the internet talking about that. Huh.

105

#98

amen brother!

106
@ Ella (#100)

Thank you.

We are all just idiots expecting trying to get other side to play by the same rules.

Such rubes we are.

107 91 Again, what's wrong with providing it if you know it's there? .

Posted by: AmishDude at February 27, 2009 12:33 PM (/DUfI)

Why would he? He has no reason to unless ordered by a court decision to do so. He has unlimited money to fight this in court (his finances are what we SHOULD be screaming about instead of this nonsense).  He could wait until a large number of repubs jump on this bandwagon and then produce it, and he and his propagandists in the MSM will use it to tar us all as a bunch of tinifoil-hat-wearing Bircher nutjobs.  And even if he does produce it, so fucking what?  I'm sure the President of the United States would have no trouble getting a flawless forgery made. 

So let's drop this bullshit.  It's a complete waste of time and there are far bigger fish to fry.

108

Yeah, CJ, 'cause bitching @ 2nd term Bush was a real loser for the other side

"Bitch" about ISSUES. Everything else is chlid's play.

109

So, Gabby, CPAC = Republican Leadership?

'cause Google can quickly find a number of dems around the "whole palin thing".

Try again.

110 Since when are we bloggers supposed to be held to some high ethical standard.  I can see a US Senator not touching this, but mudslinging and conspiracies are our job.  It's not like there isn't some meat on these bones.  We haven't gotten to dead choirboys yet.

Every little bit of mud sticks.

111 JTHC75, i guess you're one of those people who, when in a fight, would just lay down and die cus it's too hard and, wont happen.  Remind me if shit ever hits the fan, not to be fighting next to you.

112 The reason the Founders put it in the Constitution in the first place was, prior to 1776, there weren't ANY native-born "American" citizens, and they wouldn't reach the age of eligibility until 1811.  There was a concern that a European would come in and wage a populist campaign to undo many of the gains the Revolution had been fought for.  (see, Napoleon (a Corsican) and the Directorate of France for an example of how it could have happened).  The "native-born" clause ensured that an American would be POTUS until the native political class could establish itself. 


BTW, remember when WE (ie. the GOP) were going to amend this out of the Constitution so that the Governator could run?  Yeah............................

113

"Every little bit of mud sticks"

True. And even better, it keeps the other side a little bit busy cleaning it off.

114 And a five second joke means that the GOP is going BC Truther?

115 He could wait until a large number of repubs jump on this bandwagon and then produce it, and he and his propagandists in the MSM will use it to tar us all as a bunch of tinifoil-hat-wearing Bircher nutjobs.

Pussy, "I'm Scared of the media"   i've been a repub all my live and i've never seen such "deballafication" of this party.  

116

So, Gabby, CPAC = Republican Leadership?

Kincaid was introducing a Republican congressman. Yes, our leaders are there.

 

117 Now the cranks are getting tough.

I await their reports from when they fly to Honolulu and raid the State Archives.  The fate of the Republic is at stake!!

118

The proper analysis:

Obama is the son of a Kenyan Communist. Check!

Obama spent early childhood attending Indonesian Madrassah. Check!

Obama's Kenyan auntie recounts day of Obama's birth, in Kenya. Check!

Obama fails to produce proof of live birth in the United States, and refuses to release additional biographical materials from his pre-Chicago days. Check!

Given the above, clearly, it is safe to assume that Obama was a natural born citizen of the United States.  You stupid morons.

119 @112: wait a minute - by that logic, even George Wasingtpn wasn't born a citizen of the USA and was therefore ineligible to be President...

120 33 I don't believe we got our asses kicked on the issues. We lost because a starry eyed electorate thought it would be nice to have an African American president and besides, Democrats and Republicans are all the same, right?

That's about my take on it. Obamabots were in a trance over his alleged charisma and issues be damned. Hope'nchange, hope'nchange.

121 well, we'll see if the judge in Cali orders Occidental college not to comply with the subpoena to release his college records under the FOIA filed by Keyes, so far, Ohole is fighting it and filed a motion to keep that and the BC withheld from the public.  Now i can see the BC, but fighting the college records as well.... come on people, take head out of ass, then think logically.

122 No doubt the congressman will quickly distance himself from the man who introduced him.Much like Johnny Mac with the Hussein guy.That helped alot.........

123 JebbejusHFCrap! It was a throwaway line! Have "conservitive" bloggers become so correct that nothing can be said w/o the "we're above that" attitude?

No fucking kidding.  How much more cowed to political correctness are you humorless fucks going to become?

124 This debate is so insane.  I'm actually wondering if there is some Rovian memo that went out to all of uber-bloggers on the right that says don't touch this, until ...

There is no reason not to make it an issue, these blogs are echo chambers anyways - how many people here voted for Obama and might switch, how many people voted for Kincaid and might switch because of that joke?  I bet ACORN can put up triple that number of fraudulent registrations in three hours.

125 I think Obama's personal documents should be as off limits as Jack Ryan's sealed divorce records.

126 George Washington was born a British Subject of the Crown in British Territory.

However, the Constitution considers him "native-born" because he was born Westemoreland County, VA. 

127 Posted by: CoolCzech at February 27, 2009 12:51 PM (2pdnu)

The whole clause reads...

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution

128 Don't hang any hopes on it, but the eligibility question needs to be kept out there.  I think the throw-away applause line is the best way to do it.

At the rate that Teleprompter Jesus is revealing his ignorance, arrogance, and incompetence, it won't be long before enough of his true believers turn from him.  The eligibility question is a convenient issue around which these idiots can build the "I wouldn't have voted for him had I known he wasn't eligible" rationalizations they need to assuage their cognitive dissonance.

129 @ 119, the founding fathers grandfathered that in, they Knew they werent nbc's, it was impossible for some of them to be nbc's
have you read your founding documents lately?

130

Speaking of Patterico, didn't he defend some porno judge, giving him the benefit of the doubt but decided he couldn't extend that same courtesy to Gov. Palin?  Now he wants to pull the same crap with Bolton. 

 

131

Techie,

Jerome Corsi has already done the investigation, he visited Kenya, Indonesia and Hawaii. He wrote almost a 400 page book about it, with extensive citations and interviews. Obama endorsed Odinga, another Kenyan Socialist, in the Kenyan election and is rumored to have consulted with him throughout  his own campaign. 

But yeah, LOL, it's totally hilarious that anyone would think to raise the question.  LOL !!1!!111

132 Sorry, I meant the guy Kincaid introduced

133

The reason to drop the BC issue is simple: It will never be resolved one way or the other.  Therefore, it cannot provide any value for us.

There is no hard evidence that he was born in Kenya, nor will there ever be.

Conversely, there will never be any hard evidence that he was born in Hawaii, that state's 2-year grace period on registering out-of-state births being what it is combined with Obama's I-don't-answer-to-the-American-people attitude.

So, how about both sides of the BC issue stop insulting each other and let's focus on the real issue...

...that Michelle is a Klingon.

134 Alright everybody.  So what if he DOES produce it?  What does that prove?  If you believe the President of the United States couldn't get a flawless forgery made, I've got a bridge for sale.  What this tells me is Ø is not least bit worried about this.  If he was he would produce a birth certificate, either real or a forgery so good you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.  At that point, everybody on this bandwagon will be portrayed as a lunatic.

Like I said before, let Berg and the WND people pursue this.  There's no reason for anybody else to stick their hands in this pile of shit.

135 @127: well, my point was that the point of the clause was long term, not just about who would be POTUS until 1811. Clearly, the Founders thought someone born in America would be more likely be emtionally committed to her welfare.

136 It isn't like the Obama BC thing is standing in the way of having a full agenda on the issues.  It is more like an inside thing among conservatives anyway at this point, simply mentioning it or joking about it is no big deal.  Allah and Ace becoming all worried that we are chasing people away by bringing it up is nonsense. 

The libs say the most ridiculous shit on a daily basis that anyone has ever heard, and much of it has become accepted as fact.  Not saying we should be like them but for fucks sake we don't have to be pussies.  It is a legitimate issue and ties into the overarching theme that Obama has been very secretive about his past, something the MSM would never tolerate if he were a Republican.  It is not out of line to demand proof that someone is a natural born citizen when we are talking about the most powerful office in the world.

137

Well, then, Gabby, do a little googling on Congressional Democrat & the whole Palin thing.

Trust me, it'll be enlightning.

Proud to be a Crank!

138

there is a new commentator on FNC in the afternoon, he is being called "crazy"

he doesn't advocate violence

he doesn't believe in conspiracies

his ratings are exploding because he's saying what so many of us are feeling, yet he is attacked and belittled by ppl who should be his ally.

but he's "crazy" say the conserv. intellectuals, are you trying to split the movement apart? is that what you want?

the rank and file are NOT intellectuals and they have little fondness for them, they are saying "we don't want reason and logic, if reason and logic aren't getting us anywhere right now, we want to fight! 

139 Whatever you wish, continue to tilt at windmills.  I'm sure that this is the argument that will turn the tide in 2010 and 2012.

Myself, I decide to choose my battles.

140

This is why I am at least 50% as disgusted with the national GOP/conservative movement as I am with the Dems.

What CPAC brain-dead, tone-deaf nutjob decided it was a good idea to kick off the Rehab '09 Tour with the likes of this guy? Seriously, wtf?

And the applause??? It reminded me of the Bill Maher studio audience.

Whoever OK'd this speech should be canned immediately.

141 @134: the issue is Obama's hypocrisy, paranoia, and evident shame about his own past.

Some Messiah, huh?

142

odb,

Hard work often = getting s*it on one's hands.  Trust me, it washes off.

143 That constitution - it sure is a distraction to us conservatives lately.

fucking idiots

Yes, I understand this would never unseat him. You dim fucks are not understanding why some are still upset.

Why would a now sitting president have spent so much preventing this information reaching the American people?

Why?

144 If I understand half of you and John McCain correctly, we should not bring up topics which the media have declared closed or that others find unseemly. In addition, an off-limits topic takes all others off the table, because humans CAN'T POSSIBLY think about two things at once. We should only focus on one thing until Obama is given a pass. That's how we'll know we've done our job- he'll get a pass and the issue will be settled.

I'm going to look thru the news now and look for approved issues of contention. For instance, I know there's some question about what kind of dog he should get...

145 Probably because it's mostly unflattering (average student at best, no real significant academic achievements outside of Harvard Law), and the MSM was/is in the tank for him.......

And we didn't already know this?

146 Posted by: CoolCzech at February 27, 2009 12:57 PM (2pdnu)

I'm not arguing that it's a good thing. I don't want to repeal it for Granholm or Arnold.

That doesn't get to the point that Obama meets that qualification.

For those who say he doesn't...do you support Dennis Kucinich in his efforts to investigate the government's involvement in 9/11? Hey, we haven't seen all the documents and he's asking questions. What exactly is the difference again?

147 Has anyone here even read or looked at the crux of each of the cases, Bergs, Orly's, Pigeons?  I think now at least 60 members of the armed forces on Orly's case, including Staff Sgt's, Brig, General, 1st lt etc.   Seems one joins the case everyday.

148

"For instance, I know there's some question about what kind of dog he should get..."

Which, oddly enough either has or will show up from AoS, HA, etc., etc.

149

Republicans have been playing the "I'm above that" mentality to their detriment.  Unfortunately, pollitics is a dirty, ugly business and Repubs better get with the program.  In a perfect world we could be Rhett Butler vs Ashley Wilkes and be gentlemen about it - but it has never been the case.

Like war - scorched earch with everthing you've got.  Economy, socialism, govt. control, CIC's birth origin, etc.  Any RINO that gets in the way (Specter, Collins, Snowe) should be cut off at the knees.

BTW - to get a Top Secret clearance when I was in the military - I had to provide a Certified Birth Certificate among other documents.  COLB would not have been accepted.

150 Er...I'm not arguing that it's not a good thing.

In short...I like the requirement. Sorry about the confusion.

151

Obama fails to produce proof of live birth in the United States, and refuses to release additional biographical materials from his pre-Chicago days. Check!

No, he has produced proof, you just don't accept it. You want more proof. That's your problem. Don't make it the problem of the Republican Party. Birthers should go chill out with their intellectual equals among the 9/11 and Trig Truthers.

Speaking of Patterico, didn't he defend some porno judge, giving him the benefit of the doubt but decided he couldn't extend that same courtesy to Gov. Palin? 

Under no stretch of the imagination could Judge Kozinski be described as "some porno judge." That you agree with the L.A. Times which slimed him about humorous jpegs is an indication of your lack of credibility.

152

144: I'm going to look thru the news now and look for approved issues of contention. For instance, I know there's some question about what kind of dog he should get...

Portuguese Water Dog! Yeah!

OMG! LULZ! I Can haz pretty picturez?

_{What was I angry about earlier?}

153 Ok, Ol-Bird @ 134 what if Kenya produces one, a perfect Kenyan birth certificate - easy for a Government to do.  How Obama's legal challenges and scanned images look then.

Or worse, what if some malicious minded, rich Rethuglican goes over to Kenya, puts $15K on the street and comes home with a perfect Kenya hospital record.

The country will be paralyzed.  Every law he signed, gets challenged in court the next morning.

His behavior puts the country at risk. Period.

154 Ok Drew, lets break it down.  We have 9/11 Masterminds admitting to the crime, claims of responsiblity and a 9/11 panel that was conviened to address the issue.  We have their conclusions
BC, not a damn thing yet. just court cases.  If it goes to court, is found out that he is a NBC, then just like the 9/11 issue, it'll be closed.  Thats the difference, let a case be heard, and the issue will be finally put to rest.

155

Jerome Corsi has already done the investigation, he visited Kenya, Indonesia and Hawaii. He wrote almost a 400 page book about it, with extensive citations and interviews. Obama endorsed Odinga, another Kenyan Socialist, in the Kenyan election and is rumored to have consulted with him throughout  his own campaign. 

But yeah, LOL, it's totally hilarious that anyone would think to raise the question.  LOL !!1!!111

Posted by: mjhlaw at February 27, 2009 12:56 PM (8Ywpg)

The same Jerome Corsi that swallowed the "African Press International" bullshit about the fictional Michelle Obama tape hook line and sinker and made a complete idiot out of himself?  That Jerome Corsi?  Let's all follow him over the Cliff of Irrelevancy like a bunch of fucking lemmmings.  That sounds like a plan.

156 Right on t-bird, my point exactly.  Why buy into the lib narrative about what can and cannot be on the table? If the Repub politicians and some pundits want to be pussies that is their affair, others have a different view.  Today we should let the BC thing drop, tomorrow it will be something else.  The only assholes that will be offended by the Obama BC truth issue is the arch libs that we have no chance of persuading, why play into their hands? 

Some of you haven't taken the other possibility into consideration, which is what if it IS proven that Obama is NOT a natural born citizen?  We will have a constitutional crisis on our hands and it all could have been avoided if the nation would have demanded answers sooner.

157 Well at least now I know how the "sane" Democrats felt the last 8 years, with their nutjob brethren getting all the press.

158

Clearly a Republican Blog.

 

159

And again, Drew & Gabby refuse to "get it".

It's not that there is a great # of proles w/pitchforks at the gate, demanding to see the overlord's BC, rather, it's the knowledge that such lines have been a staple of political battles since, well, before recorded history.

BTW, it's not the line that's causing this controversy, rather, it's the "shuush" coming from the "leadership".

160 Kincaid is one of these wackos that used to ( or maybe still does) fill in for nutjob Micheal Savages radio show.
He should not be given a forum at the local coffee shop, much less CPAC.
David Brooks to the left me, CPAC to the right- Jesus!

161

#152,

"_{What was I angry about earlier? "}

Battlestar Galactica vs. Star Trek.  Don't you remember?

162

"humorous jpegs "

Says a lot about your credibility.

163 Lets face it, the only reason that some of you are against the BC issue is because of non exposure from the MSM.  That's it.  Do you think that the same would be happening if there were cases against Boosh,  me thinks not, me knows not.  The MSM would be pounding this issue everyday.  Man this party has become a bunch of lil bitches

164 BC, not a damn thing yet. just court cases.
Posted by: slizzle at February 27, 2009 01:05 PM (zG+3k)

See, you can say that but it doesn't make it true.

You have the state issues COLB, which is what the state gives out when you request a birth certificate. It's considered as good as anything by the state and federal government, not so much for you and the rest. That's a you problem.

He was also elected by the Electoral College and had the results certified by the Congress of the United States. Not one member of either of those bodies (the people actually charged with electing the President) raised the issue. They seemed to be satisfied by his qualifications.

But yeah, other than that...nothing.

165 Come on our tent isn't broad enouugh to cover a few nutjobs??Conservatives like to fight each other more than they do the other side.

166 Clearly, the Founders thought someone born in America would be more likely be emtionally committed to her welfare.

Guess they weren't as brilliant as we thought, huh?

167 151, Gab, your correct - he presented proof, and I reject it.  Just like DSS or any Court would have done. 

The documented was presented without provenance and does not address the issue - where was he born.  Another document that then matters is his parent's marriage certificate - haven't seen that either.

168

even if it's not true it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter!

we have to use every weapon available

no it won't unseat him, the MSM will not allow that to happen, but it's a thorn in his side, he's obviously very defensive about it, let's use that, let's use everything, and then make up some crap just for fun, nothing should be off limits by command of our leaders because nothing is off limits to them

169

BTW, it's not the line that's causing this controversy, rather, it's the "shuush" coming from the "leadership."

Preach it, brother.

170

GM @ 151

I'm not arguing that the Republicans should make this an issue, what I am arguing is that our conservative "betters" do not get the job of telling us what is and what is not a valid issue for discussion and/or argumentation.  Your moderate brand of conservatism is exactly what earned us the current Marxist in office, and conservatives need to listen to the grass roots, not lecture to them. I'll gladly join my intellectual brethren among the 9/11 and trig truthers*, if you agree to join Tom Harkin and the other Marxists who wish to limit free expression so that it is "balanced" and "fair".

*Because certainly, in your book, there is moral equivalience between impugning the veracity and virtue of an irrelevant 18 y.o. mother and asking an elected candidate to affirmatively prove minimal Constitutional qualifications for the highest office in the land. 

171

DrewM.,

No, you don't have a state issued COLB. You have a photocopy on a leftist website of a COLB.

And a COLB isn't a birth certificate. Anyone can get one, in any municipality, for a birth anywhere in the world. For example, if you have a kid born while you're on vacation in Canada, they would have a Canadian birth certificate, but you could get a COLB issued in your home county.

172 This everyman populism business is just a panic response.  People don't have ideas, so they are hoping they can just say, "Vote for me, I'm like you."

But nobody really wants some know-nothing doofus who thinks a tired old joke based on a lie is really going to fix anything.

Buckley wasn't an everyman, but just about every man I know liked Buckley, and even those who didn't, had a respect for him.

Buckley was about as elite as you can get.  But he was also very real. 

Forget Joe the Plumber.  Find another Buckley.

173 Posted by: Ella at February 27, 2009 01:15 PM (jeP9I)

No, they made it available at their HQ in Chicago for inspection. What do you want, him to come to your house with it so you can examine it?

174 Hahaha. What a bunch of dumbfucks. I knew the wheels would come off, but this quickly? Too nice. Freepers are in full control.

175 Drew, so am i to take if from that statement that you are trusting of our elected officials?   Wow, then you are on the minority on that one.  And if you research the COLB and what it means in Hawaii in the year 1964, you'd know that even a foreign born child is eligible for a COLB!!!   The only state in the US that allowed that to happen. 
But i guess relying n the Dems to be honest....let me know how that works out for ya

176 Oh now here comes Frito to mock us.See what you did??By the way frito fuck you and the horse you rode in on.......

177 Its reallll simple. In 2010 and 2012, the country will have had enough of the Mommy Party and decide that Daddy might be better.

Now, if Daddy is explaining that there is no free lunch, that we need to grow the economy, etc., it will be much easier to win.

Obama birther stuff should be explicitly left to that crazy cousin Vinny. (i.e. proxies.)

Do we really want to end up like Sullivan or Rather?

178

#172

Buckley didn't go around deriding the commoners, i admit i understood about half of what he was saying, but i never, ever got the impression that he had anything but respect for joe/jane six-pack.

179 frito, i had your mom under full control last week, she looks amazing with a gage ball in her mouth...rawr.
Dude's, this issue isnt gonna go away, at all, from what I heard, they are going full committment on this issue and they should. 

180 "I think Obama's personal documents should be as off limits as Jack Ryan's sealed divorce records."

Just think, we can trace the end of America as we knew and loved it back to Jeri Ryan's reluctance to go into a sex club with her then-husband.

A few years ago, I read an interview with her in some magazine where she gushed about being a lot more open sexually with her new husband (then boyfriend).  If only she hadn't been a prude back then, America could have been saved.

181

The documented was presented without provenance and does not address the issue - where was he born.

Jean, actually, it says right there on its face: place of birth: Hawaii.

I'm not arguing that the Republicans should make this an issue, what I am arguing is that our conservative "betters" do not get the job of telling us what is and what is not a valid issue for discussion and/or argumentation.  

mjhlaw, your betters aren't telling you what is or is not a valid issue for discussion. They are telling you, as is their right, that this is not a winning issue. More than that it's embarrassing and makes Republicans look like idiots, who can't read a simple certificate of live birth. It also makes them look like conspiracy theorists. You know how often conspiracy theorists on the Right get elected. There's Ron Paul...and...?

Your moderate brand of conservatism is exactly what earned us the current Marxist in office, and conservatives need to listen to the grass roots, not lecture to them.

Hey, I wasn't the one telling conservatives to sit out.

182 What a bunch of dumbfucks. I knew the wheels would come off, but this quickly?

Word, and his administration only been in office since January 20th.  er, that is what you meant, right?



DJIA - 25.84.  Only down 271 for the week, so far.  That's just 3.5%

183 The problem is not disagreement it is contempt.I agree the BC issue is unimportant but I don't have contempt for those who think otherwise.Some of you seem openly contemptuous and that rubs me the wrong way.It's not an isolated incident either.Contempt for Sarah Palin for Joe the plumber it is a pattern of behavior.

184

""humorous jpegs "

Says a lot about your credibility."

No, dude; I've seen the humorous jpegs in question; they were nothing.  Calling them pornography, or suggesting that the judge had porn on his computer, was nothing less than lying character assassination.

185 I'll tell you what, those who wanna persue the BC issue, more power to them, you can argue all day long about 9/11 truthism, but anyone who has any intellectual honesty at all, who took the time to read the case, knows this isnt gonna go away.  so those who dont want to persue it, then get the fuck out of the way and stop trying to belittle those who wanna do the work your lazy asses dont.  Maybe if there was more MSM coverage of this, it'll be resolved without a court case (wishful thinking there) .  I love to hear those talk about this as a waste of time, but really dont know a damn thing about the cases, brilliant!!

186 Here is all you need to know about zero.....if he applied for employment to the FBI...he would not qualify for employment.

187

Obama has spent lots of money basically saying one thing: It's none of your damned business whether I'm eligible for office. The courts have agreed.

IOW, we're not even PRETENDING to be a nation of laws any more.

I think this is absolutely vital. If this doesn't matter, then nothing matters. Whoever can screw the most people out of their money and vote wins the planet and do whatever they damned well please to whoever they damned well please and it's nobody else's damned business.. That's what this damned nation amounts to.

I'm not cussing, either. I'm stating the facts.

I find myself not trusting anybody. How can I trust those - even conservatives - who believe that the rule of law and our Constitution don't matter? This is one of the few places I could stand to go to any more just because you, Ace, seemed to understand that our Consitution was at issue. But it seems like you've dropped the Constitution just like everybody else. I'm disappointed.

See if you can access the California Journal of ASsembly for 1981. On p. 7087, July 1981, paragraphs 283-313 it records that Barry Soetoro recieved from the State of California foreign student aid. He was 18. That's the only official AMERICAN record we've seen about him - that at age 18 he was a foreigner (and under a different name - a fact he lied about to the Bar). We do have the Indonesian school registration form where he's named Barry Soetoro, an Indonsesian citizen, and a Muslim.

The COLB he posted proves his American birth no more than his sister, Maya's, proves hers. If Ann Dunham was certifiably willing to lie about Maya, who was actually born in Indonesia) why wouldn't she lie about Barry? The number on that certificate is blacked out, which nullifies it. AND it was never accepted, just "received". If that's the best document he has to offer, then he knows damned well that he's committed treason against the USA as an Indonesian illegal alien.

We do have his social security number under the name Barack Obama - one that would have come from Connecticut in the mid-seventies, when he was still Barry Soetoro. Tell me how the heck he got that legitimately. I suspect that whoever got Aunt Zetunia her social security number got Barry his as well. I believe hers is from Connecticut also.

I don't have time to deal with this right now, but I'm really disgusted with the conservatives who shrug their shoulders over our nation becoming lawless. How are we different than any thugocracy the world has known? America as I have known and loved her is dead.

188 Posted by: slizzle at February 27, 2009 01:21 PM (zG+3k)

No, what I'm saying is the Constitution places the responsibility for electing the President with certain individuals (most certainly not...'the people' directly).  Presumably they are also responsible and empowered to ensure they are electing someone who is eligible.

Are you saying you don't think there's on Congressman or Senator who takes their oath seriously enough to raise a question about a matter of this magnitude? Or perhaps they don't believe it to be an issue (note how Shelby back tracked really fast from his public flirtation with Birherism).

It's funny but all the people saying 'it's about the Constitution!' (and it is) conveniently ignore the parts that don't help their case. Strange how that works.

189 133

The reason to drop the BC issue is simple: It will never be resolved one way or the other.  Therefore, it cannot provide any value for us.

Hey Crusty, here is my two cents.  You are right, it will never be resolved one way or the other.  However... I think that is how it can be used to our advantage.  Throwing out the birth certificate accusation is very easy for us to do.  But trying to refute the accusation is like trying to disprove a negative.  Very difficult, if not impossible.

Just look at the results in this thread:  Q:"Why hasn't he released his birth certificate?" A: (Long drawn out explanation as to why this is not necessary) Q: "But then why hasn't he released his birth certificate to prove this?" A: (Increasingly long explanation) Q: "So why not release it?" A: (Angry response, personal attack, increased frustration on the part of the answerer) 

So who is working harder and expending more effort?  The answerers, I think.

Barry Obama is supposed to be cool and composed, and so should those who represent him.  If we can crack that complacency a bit, good for us.  Let them waste time and effort defending against this, especially since it seems to take more out of the answerer tahna the questioner.  "But why won't he release it....?"

Call it the "big lie".  Call it the "wear them down with constant attacks".  All I know is that the collective left as a whole threw every last baseless accusaation and malicious question they could at Bush.  Were they warranted?  Fuck no, they were crap.  But having to constantly rebut them was exhausting, which I think was the entire point.  Personally, after a time, I got so tired of responding to these baseless accusations that I just let them go unchallenged.  "Bush lied, people died!"  *resigned, weary silence...*  "Katrina!"  *resigned, weary silence...*  "He outed Valrie Plame, TREASON!!!"  *resigned, weary silence...*

The thing is, we can still throw out attacks like this very easily (almost a SPAM attack) and still focus a lot of effort on the issues.  Obviously, issues are important.  But these SPAM attacks have their uses too. 

190 Absolutely.  Buckley was awesome.  He was really smart and he cared about people, and it was clear.  He spoke up to people, not down to them, and if you didn't quite understand everything he said, you could be safe in knowing that whatever it was, it was going to be principled and honest.

I think Republicans leaders are fools for trying to cash in on populism.  Sure it plays well when you have a big crowd.  But I don't think people really want to elect an idiot for president.  And most of the time, playing the populist means talking down to people, acting like an idiot because you think they are also idiots.  And it populism usually shows itself as something false, contrived, and base (like Jindal's horrible speech and Cliff Kincaid's stupid laugh line).

Nobody is going to discriminate against somebody for being smart and rich.  But you have to make sure that you put your wealth and brains to good use.  And I think Buckley did this really well.

And it makes me sad that there really isn't anyone like him right now.  Or if there is, the people who think they know everything are committed to filling the void of leadership with a dumb-talking boob who is easy to control.

191 You are right Ed but conservatives are snarky fucks who like to eat their own.The left KNOWS they have whackjobs on their side but they humor them and it works.I think we need to lose some of our fear of shame and snobbiness.

192 Gab, a COLB is created from a birth record.  Accepting that COLB is a valid document is OK. 

But a COLB does not reflect the entire birth record, in Hawaii in 1964, you could attest as a witness to a birth to create a birth record or register a foreign birth and a COLB printed today would look the same as if you were born in an Oahu hospital.

The Presidency is actually held to a higher standard the most other offices, but no one has standing to check and we have a leader that insists on hiding his past.  Those are valid issues.

193

#19 Gabriel Malor. I had more respect for you than that. We have a COLB that has the cert number blacked out, which nullifies the whole thing. In addition, the border is from one year and the seal is from another year - a measure Hawaii put in place to expose fraud. Furthermore, Hawaii allows foreign births to be registered as Hawaiian births. That's why Maya Soetoro, who was born in Indonesia, has a Hawaii COLB just like her half-brother. And contemporaneous Hawaii COLB's that are accompanied by documentation when applied for (such as doctor's signatures) are noted as "accepted" on the certificate; not "received" as Obama's is.

I thought this issue was crazy. Then I checked into the facts. All I ask is that others do the same before they open their pieholes about it.

194 i believe his mom smuggled him into Hawaii on a commie sub

195

Drew,

this reaction really has nothing to do with O's birth records, post #183 hit the nail right on the head, this about the future shape and direction of the Repub Party, right now pseudo-quasi-conservatives are in control of the party, the rank and file are taken for granted, dismissed by this attitude of "who else they gonna vote for?"

we can not grow the Party until the Leadership makes peace with the base, and the base aren't budging from their issues, so the Leadership is going to have to come to them

the 800 lb gorilla in the room is illegal immigration

196 To follow on rls, As an FSO, his paperwork would have never been sent to DSS, period.  I wouldn't even wait for them to reject it.

197 Think of it this way, if the BC was the *only* issue Obama was dodging, that would be one thing.  The fact is that he has attempted to obscure everything he has ever done up until the time he was elected to the Senate.  Never have we elected someone to this office and have known so little about him, and what we do know is extremely troubling.  Barry should know that if you want to be president, you are going to come under scrutiny and rightfully so.  When you start acting like you are hiding stuff, people are going to talk about it.  There is no such thing as privacy when it comes to presidents, that comes with the territory.  The MSM tried like hell to dig up every little tidbit they could about Bush, whats goof for the goose....  Trying to act like Conservatives are "above that" has gotten us nowhere.

198 Posted by: shoey at February 27, 2009 01:43 PM (IRh55)

I agree their is a fight on for the soul of the movement, there always is. However, if you are saying Birtherism is the sin qua non of being a 'real conservative' vice  "pseudo-quasi-conservatives" , enjoy benig a crank minority that no one pays attention to.

As for Palin, I'd love to see someone ask her about this. My guess is she has a rather low tolerance for wacky theories bouncing around the internet. Then let the heartache begin!

199

Kensington,

That wasn't the point of my post, Gabe just hates it when you talk trash about lawyers so he decide to latch onto that.

Anyway, explain what was funny in those pictures? 

200

"mjhlaw, your <b> betters </b> aren't telling you what is or is not a valid issue for discussion. They are telling you, as is their right, that this is not a winning issue. More than that it's embarrassing and makes Republicans look like idiots, who can't read a simple certificate of live birth. It also makes them look like conspiracy theorists."

Thank you for confirming my characterization of the mindset pervasive throughout Republican "thought leader" circles.  I thought CPAC was about conservatives; not Republicans, and your comments on this thread, assuming they are consistent witth Republicans', prove that conflation of Conservative and Republican is a grave error.  The day Republicans depart from arguing about what we should all agree is an important constitutional issue on the merits (not whether it is a "winning" one) is the day I renew my pledge to NEVER contribute to the NRSC, NRCC, or NRC or any other National Republican organization.

"Hey, I wasn't the one telling conservatives to sit out. "

No, but a Republican presidential candidate who shares many of your views was implicitly telling conservatives exactly that.  Unfortunately, too man conservatives were either unable to expunge the many betrayals by Mccain; or insufficiently afraid of Obama winning to rouse themselves to the booths.  But, your sincere apathy and lack of concern really is inspiring.

201

Hillary's oppostition research got stopped at the courts. Philip Berg has documents from Kenya with witness signatures. But the courts have consistently said that it is nobody's business whetehr Obama is eligible. Leo Donofrio sued to have the NJ Sec of State follow their own law and verify Obama's eligibility. But SCOTUS said it doesn't matter if the people who are legally required to check eligibility don't.

IOW, nobody who is supposed to check out eligibility has to (or did). And nobody else CAN.

Why don't we just leave the White House door unlocked so anybody can walk in? The NJ SOS let a NICARAGUAN be on the ballot for president!

202 A retired Brigadier General has also filed suit. Seems these military guys should get around the "standing" issue.

203

Hongqi, it's not about trash talking lawyers. Grow up. It's about people who despicably attacked a distinguished judge. (And apparently, continue to do so.)

The Presidency is actually held to a higher standard the most other offices, but no one has standing to check and we have a leader that insists on hiding his past.  Those are valid issues.

As Drew has been saying, the Constitution rests the authority to determine the eligibility of Presidential candidates with the electors and Congress. Not every problem is intended by the Constitution to be solved in the courts.

204 This is exactly why the democrats and obama lost the election, because they pushed all the wildly anti bush stuff about how he stole the election and was "chimpy bushitler" and so on.  Let's learn from their mistake

205 please, i am not saying we should make this THE issue, but it should be out there, it should be used the way the libs used ridiculous accusations against us, the libs use their fringe as a tool and a very effective one, we tell ours to go get fucked, which strategy is working best?

206

who shares many of your views was implicitly telling conservatives exactly that. 

Oh, fuck that shit. Now you're just trying character assasination by association. My own views are much to well documented (for example at this very website) for anyone to believe that John McCain "shares many of [my] views." You are a nutjob.

 

207 Side note: I completely agree with Gabe about Judge Kosinski.  He is one of a dying breed of libertarian/conservative minded jurists in the Federal judiciary, in the 9th circuit nonetheless.  His dissent in Silveira made me want to go to law school.

208 DrewM. at February 27, 2009 01:19 PM (hlYel)

He didn't have a copy at his office in Chicago. He posted a scanned copy on this FighttheSmears website, the Daily Kos, and FactCheck.org. And the scan looks bogus:

http://tinyurl.com/5lqr4v

209 gotta go to bat for G.M. here, i don't always agree with him, but i'm pretty sure Gabe would have chosen a different canidate if possible

210

No Gabe, the point is that it was okay to defend a judge who had questionable crap on his computer but not a guy who makes a joke a CPAC. Patterico throws a freakin' hissy fit.

Heaven forbid if we are seen with people who would make a joke about a birth certificate but a judge with pictures of urination and cow women is no problem. 

You grow up. *sticks tongue out*

 

211 MOST Americans say FUCK THE CONSTITUTION.

Who are YOU to disagree?

212 Posted by: Ella at February 27, 2009 02:01 PM (jeP9I)

So factcheck.org was lying when they said they went and handled the document at the Obama HQ's?

I mean, you can say you don't like them but I'd like to see your proof that they are lying.

213

#188 Drew, Nancy Pelosi led two standing ovations - presumably at sheer ecstasy over Obama's name - at the precise time when Dick Cheney was supposed to ask for objections. Cheney never asked the question. I guess the objections were supposed to be given in writing some time in advance.

As to whether any senators would have questioned eligibility, ponder this: Burris bought the Senate seat, as everybody knew,  and not a soul was able to stop him from doing it.

214 203, Gab - I generally agree the Courts should stay out of it, but without a definitive ruling they are going to be besieged with cases until some judge does an in camera inspection.  More importantly, the court of public opinion will be wide open to anyone who can come up with something that looks like a receipt for a Kenyan hospital.

215 frito, i had your mom under full control last week, she looks amazing with a gage ball in her mouth...rawr.
Dude's, this issue isnt gonna go away, at all, from what I heard, they are going full committment on this issue and they should.

Were you the one that shaved all the hair off her back?

216 Posted by: justincase at February 27, 2009 02:07 PM (DzSTc)

So applause stopped someone from objecting? They couldn't, you know, wait until it ended to bring up something of such importance? Wow, the must have been really committed to bringing this issue to light.

And what's the Burris circus have to do with this?

217

"Oh, fuck that shit. Now you're just trying character assasination by association. My own views are much to well documented (for example at this very website) for anyone to believe that John McCain "shares many of [my] views." You are a nutjob."

So you'll eschew assassination by association and just go for direct ad hominem? Perhaps there are issues on which you differ w. John Mccain, I will concede the point, since I don't have my Gabe Malor crib notes handy.  But, I have to believe he would agree with you on one central issue relevant to this discussion: perfunctory dismissal of legitimate conservative criticism of Obama, because of the perception that it is not a "winning issue", without regard to the underlying principles.  (See, e.g. Mccain's placing of Ayers and/or Wright as off limits)

 

218

the demographics for the GOP have been changing for awhile now, it seems to have finally reached some kind of critical mass, the rank and file is in open revolt against the leadership and the leadership just keeps on acting like it isn't

earmarks is a huge issue not because of the amounts of money involved, but because of the principles involved, the party could pit themselves against the Dems with some cred. if they would stop using earmarks, but they won't, they don't seem to be able to, they are as corrupt as their opponents and i will not support them until that changes

219 BTW- Corsi, hero of the birther movement, is worried that Democrats are actually building internment camps for political opponents.

Ed at Hot Air has an interview with him (why he'd bother with this guy, I have no idea) and even the Hot Air types think he's nuts.

But hey, maybe he's a 'real' conservative. If so, God help us all.

220 A few random thoughts after skimming this thread:

Yeah, the GOP needs to be sane, sober, rational, and focus on the issues.  Because that was clearly the Democratic strategy over the past 8 years.

CPAC is considered our leadership?  That might be part of the problem, right there.  What have they done for us lately?  2006?  2008?  Right.

Here's another problem:  Republicans and/or conservatives can be as sober and serious as humanly possible, and it won't matter.  The Dems and the media (but I repeat myself) will paint us as far-right, Christianist, anti-science, unsophisticated rubes no matter what we do.

Look at what was done to Palin.  On that Friday morning, I'd say most Americans had never heard of her.  Within 72 hours, a fair number of Americans either believed or were pushing the idea that she was some sort of illiterate hillbilly fundamentalist, pushing theocracy and faking a pregnancy.

The gloves need to come off.  Nice guys finish last.  The GOP and/or conservatives had better play to win, or we'll lose on a regular basis.  And if that's beyond the pale for the likes of David Brooks or Allahpundit, well, fuck 'em.

Do you want to win, or do you want another "honorable loss"?

221

"perfunctory dismissal of legitimate conservative criticism"

Yep, unless Gabe decides to bless it. Then it's all good.

222

But, I have to believe he would agree with you on one central issue relevant to this discussion: perfunctory dismissal of legitimate conservative criticism of Obama, because of the perception that it is not a "winning issue", without regard to the underlying principles.  (See, e.g. Mccain's placing of Ayers and/or Wright as off limits)

Guess again. I wrote extensively about both issues during the campaign and condemned McCain for his idiotic withdrawl from addressing either.

 

 

223

We really don't have to increase the marginalization by pushing silly nits like this.

The term is picking nits, nits being the eggs of lice and lice being small critters.  I suppose if you considered yourself a female louse they are known to push nits out their ass when laying them.  Whether or not one regards nits as silly depends on whether or not one thinks lice are a health problem or not I suppose. *

As to the Big Owe's constitutional worthiness to be POTUS, it should be remembered that Zero probably wouldn't have even been elected an Illinois Senator if he hadn't picked a lot of nits himself to get the other candidates disqualified from the ticket.  What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, say I, and if the Magic Negro isn't legally a natural born American citizen then he shouldn't be POTUS at the risk of bringing the entire constitution to ridicule and disrepute.

*see the Black Death

 

 

224

We've always been the side of self-restrained and politeness. That's called "losers" these days.

This is EXACTLY what the liberals say about themselves. So many of them argued that this is why they were losing. It was bull for them and for us.

225 Anyway, explain what was funny in those pictures?

Oh, I didn't say they were funny.  I just said they weren't pornographic.  I don't remember the specifics anymore.  That's part of the point: they were that innocuous.  There was a video of a some animal with a boner, and it was clearly taken right off America's Funniest Home Videos (those noted pornographers).

226 At least, I didn't find them funny, but my sense of humor has never been in synch with America's Funniest Home Videos.

227

OK, I just want to apologize publicly to Gabe.  I didn't mean to mis-characterize any of his views.  I don't have any animus toward him, but I am frustrated by the seeming inability of some conservatives to understand the strong feelings this issue (and others) generates.  He's right that they have a right to adopt or reject any views as to this issue or others, but the unfortunate fact is they seem to consistently reject or "go limp" wrt issues that are important to grass roots folks; and adopt ones that are unimportant. 

Anyways, I need to step back from my keyboard..  Sorry Gabe, I do enjoy your posts and love this blog. 

Best,

228

Republicans have been playing the "I'm above that" mentality to their detriment.  Unfortunately, pollitics is a dirty, ugly business and Repubs better get with the program.

This is just the excuse liberals gave when they were losing. "We're too nice." it's self-delusion.

229 "No Gabe, the point is that it was okay to defend a judge who had questionable crap on his computer"

But Hongki, the part you're refusing to accept is that the stuff on his computer wasn't questionable.  At all.  It was nonsense.

Since that is the case, there was nothing inappropriate about Gabe (or anyone else) defending him.  Defense was warranted.

230 Addendum at #227:  I meant "go limp" in the civil disobedience sense...not the other sense...and if Judge Kosinski happens to be reading, he may want to scrub his buffers...or whatever...

231

Kensington,

So taking that a bit farther, what was "questionable" about the jokes made at CPAC?  Those comments were so over the top that he had to come out and denounce them?

 

232

Buckley was about as elite as you can get.  But he was also very real. 
Forget Joe the Plumber.  Find another Buckley.

Amen.

233 We just to agree that some on the right are going to be clear, sober representatives of Truth, Justice, and the American Way; and well others are going to be mudslinging bomb-throwers (rhetorical, don't hit me with CJ's stick).

Being an effective mudslinging, frothing cesspit got Huffpo a seat with the Whitehouse press corp.  Tell me thats not Ace's dream, to fly to distant locales with President Palin.  (When she leaves bearkiller at home to mind Congress.)

234 207 Side note: I completely agree with Gabe about Judge Kosinski.  He is one of a dying breed of libertarian/conservative minded jurists in the Federal judiciary, in the 9th circuit nonetheless.  His dissent in Silveira made me want to go to law school. Posted by: mjhlaw at February 27, 2009 02:01 PM (8Ywpg) I heard Robert Bork on Dennis Prager's show the other day and he said the Federalist Society is really becoming a force to be reckoned with in a lot of law schools, so maybe we'll get a new generation of libertarian/ conservative judges in a few years.

235 232, Yes - we need another Buckley to be the gatekeeper.  Any suggestions?

236 There are no other Buckley's and I got a news flash for ya, as great as Buckley was, most Americans, even Conservatives, had no idea who he was or what he really stood for.  Sure they knew OF him but day to day he was not part of the national conversation, especially in his later years.  People relate to JTP because he reminds them of themselves and their neighbors.  Everybody also knows people like Palin. Nothing wrong with that.  If we start "forgetting" people like JTP, we are foolish, average citizens should have their say and he represents that, for better or worse.

237 Yeah, pure silliness, except for the fact that for some odd reason Obama refuses to take the logical step in putting an end to such silliness by authorizing the production of the ORIGINAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE.  But I suppose expecting him to do so is considered by some to be the desire of only conspiracy theory buffs, tinfoil hats, and oh yeah, people who actually VALUE THE CONSTITUTION!  People who actually believe it means something and is not a akin to a suggestion box.  Was Obama born in Kenya?  I have absolutely no idea.  If he was, then there is no way in hell he should be President and those who think he should because it would be silly to abide by an archaic provision of the Constitution represent the eventual ruin of our republic.

238

When it comes to Obama, for the past 2 years it's been:

"You cannot discuss Obama's ______ [birth certificate, association with Ayers, Rezko, socialist/communist beliefs, withholding of college transcripts, medical records, etc.] because it makes you look like a kooky conspiracy theorist."

Eff that.

I'm mad as hell this bc issue wasn't challenged during the campaign. There's a big chance he could have been deemed ineligible. True, we can't really do anything about it now but it doesn't mean I'm not still mad as hell about it.

I think this thing at CPAC was just a throwaway line/joke anyway (can't view it at work) it's not like this is going to be one of the platforms we run on in 2010/2012. I would be upset if conservatives weren't still mad as hell about this bc issue. I'm glad they brought it up, actually.

239 "So taking that a bit farther, what was "questionable" about the jokes made at CPAC?  Those comments were so over the top that he had to come out and denounce them?"

I don't know, Hongki.  I'm actually okay with the CPAC joke (I don't even think the Bolton comment was a joke).  I'm just saying that trying to use that judge to make a point about Gabe is silly.  There's nothing to that particular example.  Everyone should have defended the judge, so Gabe's defense of him is unremarkable.

240

The gloves need to come off.  Nice guys finish last

How about we fight them on adult issues that determine longterm success, not the outrage of the day?

241

"Do you want to win, or do you want another "honorable loss"?"

And that, folks is the key to this entire fracas.

Very clearly, there are those who wish to debate, to discuss, to plan, and to create ideas, and to promulgate said ideas.

There are others who will fight. Who will disregard politics to reach a goal - and who will sometimes veer over the line to win.

Unfortunatly, the conservative movement today is bereft of both leadership and action.

Whining about a joke at a speech isn't going to help find the latter.

J

242 To qualify my post above (23 I didn't mean we were told not to talk about that stuff from this site/Ace. I just meant MSM and public opinion in general.

243

#240

because the public lives on the outrage of the day.

Dems have known that for a long time,

we still can't seem to figure it out

244 Jess, exactly, as many Americans should know about Donald Young as know about Col. Killian.  Again, not saying either had any truth or validity, but mud is mud.

245 Im sitting here talking with my wife about this.  She is convinced that Obama isn't a citizen.  My take is that I am pissed about the fact that every single person who runs for president does not have to prove the 3 qualifications for office.  What is the point of a Consitution if we don't have to follow it?  At the end of the day that is a problem I think we can all agree on and that really bothers me.  The casual fuck you from Obama and especially the press about this.

Anyways, back to the point my wife made.  Quote "All of those readers must be a bunch of fucking men that can only do one damn thing at a time.  Can't they go and rebuild the party and message while others look into and drive the birth issue.  Are we that fucking incompetant?  All the bitching about the Congress people listening to the press and now we roll over because of what they might think about us pushing the birth issue." and then the rant continues.

246

Once again, the point wasn't what some creepy judge in California had on his computer, regardless of the number of lawyers he seems to have inspired here.  It was about the selective nature of who and what to defend and denounce.

People like Gabe and Patterico will gladly rant and tear their hair out over the outrageous treatment of an esteemed member of the bar but can't be bothered with things that don't meet their litmus test.

Creepy judge porn: Doesn't marginalize the party

Joke about a birth certificate:  Does marginalize the party

 

247

I CAN SMELL THE BURNING CROSSES FROM HERE!!!!!!1

 

HOW CAN YOU TYPE WHILE Y'ALL ARE TIEING NOOSES AND JACKBOOTING!!!!!

 

I CAN'T WAIT FOR MY BARACK TO DISAPPEAR ALL YOU REPUBLIKKKONS!!!!!

248 You're really unrelenting on this Hongki.  This is the hill you want to die on?  NOBODY'S DEFENDING CREEPY JUDGE PORN BECAUSE THERE WASN'T ANY CREEPY JUDGE PORN!

Your comparison is off-base to the point of being retarded.

249

#246

"Creepy judge porn: Doesn't marginalize the party

Joke about a birth certificate:  Does marginalize the party"

 

now that you put it that way, i understand what you're getting at and i agree

250 It's funny, I never believed this at first.  On the other hand, some proof would be nice.

But the funny part is - believing it or not, I've always had the sneaking suspicion that this - what everyone laughs at - will turn out to be true.

So simple. 

251

hongqi,

would i be right in saying that you are not arguing that what the judge did was a capital offense, but rather it's a perception issue, a kind of double standard that is a clear example of the rift in the party?

252

You really seem to be missing the point, using porn as an example seems to have thrown you off a bit. Forget the whole creepy porn thing (and yes it was).

Selective litmus test, that is the thing to take away.

*Gentlemen, this is the hill I want to die on*

 

253 Kay is on our list too

254

As to the Big Owe's constitutional worthiness to be POTUS, it should be remembered that Zero wouldn't have even been elected an Illinois Senator if he hadn't picked a lot of nits himself to get the other candidates, including an incumbent, disqualified from the ticket.

Captain Bullshit wouldn't be POTUS if he hadn't been a Senator in the first place.

Let's face it, he was only elected because of his skin color and his skin color wouldn't have helped if he wasn't a Senator and he's was only elected Senator because he had everyone else thrown off the ticket over minor technicalities or what some people call "silly nits".

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, say I, and if the Magic Negro isn't legally a natural born American citizen then he shouldn't be POTUS at the risk of bringing the entire constitution to ridicule and disrepute.

 

255 Posted by: tsj017 at February 27, 2009 02:17 PM (TBwnU)

Well stated.

256 All right, Hongki.  Let me try and rephrase what I think your point is:

When there was a perception that a conservative judge had porn on his computer, Gabe defended him, but when a guy at CPAC makes a joke that can be perceived as being bad for the GOP, Gabe excoriates him.  Thus, Gabe is a hypocrite.  Is that right?

The problem with this is that it compares apples to oranges, and each merits a different response.  Are you suggesting that, if the CPAC speaker were a judge, and the guy with the computer merely a CPAC speaker, then Gabe's responses would be reversed, merely on the basis of who is a jurist?

I don't see how you could possible support that.

257
Yeah, as O's version of the SS drags me away in the middle of the night, they'd probably get a kick out of me protesting Der Fuhrer's citizenship status.  Would give Goebbels Gibbs something to chuckle about with his MSM flunkies at the press conference the next morning.

258 DrewM. at February 27, 2009 02:07 PM (hlYel)

No, I don't believe them. So, Annenburg's group (as in O!'s former coworkers) claim they went to his office and got a scan of a document not publically on display, and they posted what looks like crappy photoshop as evidence. And I should take their word for it.

And, see, Dan Rather met this lady under the bleachers at a rodeo and she gave him some copies of faxed documents from TANG in the 1970s.

Gee, which one of those stories has the ring of truth?

Why are you okay with this? Did you at least look at the picture? Does that look real to you? Is that the hill you want to die on?

259

RNC Ad:  WANTED:  Public Relations Specialist.

260

shoey,

That is exactly what I'm trying to say. I don't care at all about what the judge did or didn't have on his computer.  I even like porn, not his kind of porn but the good ole healthy American type with two girls.

Double standard, yes that sums it up.

261 I don't buy the fact that Conservatives are at a 65/35 disadvantage on the ISSUES.  Most issue related polls show the margin to be much closer if not in favor of the Conservative position. The Republican Party as currently PERCEIVED vs the PERCEPTION of the Dems?  Maybe.  Things change though.

262

Good one, hannitys_hybrid @ 03:29 PM.

Bye the bye, did you know that Der Fuhrer himself wasn't German but Austrian and therefor had no legal right to be on the ticket that elected him in Germany? 

Imagine the lives that would have been saved had the electoral law been followed in the case, eh?

263

"I don't see how you could possible support that."

Okay, you got me there and I will admit to using it simply to take a swipe at Gabe because he can be an annoying twit at times.  Very self-righteous and a tad on the arrogant side.

The rest I stand 100% behind...unless you make another good point.

 

264

it's not about him being a judge, it's the judge being percieved as "in" or "out" of ones group...

we have a split in the Party and it's basically the public school kids against the prep-school kids, there are way more public school kids in the Party than prep-school kids and we are sick to death of the prep-school kids running the show

 

265 Meeting standards of eligibility is applicable only to everyone who isn't a DemocRAT. DemocRATS get to self validate. Whatever they say goes.

266

#212 Drew, I know for a fact that FactCheck lied about their "Born-Alive Baloney" article after I e-mailed them 4 different times giving them the citation which proved that their answer was 100% absolutely wrong.

I trust them about as much as I trust Congress.

But even if the COLB posted was authentic (and there are several reasons to believe it wasn't), it was not "Accepted" but only "Received". And even if it had been accepted, it doesn't prove the place of birth. Obama's half-sister, Maya, was born in Indonesia but has a Hawaii COLB like his.

267 Yes, I knew that about Hitler, Speller. Very interesting and also the parallels with 1934-38 Germany are chilling, in general.  Updated for the 21st-century, of course, but if you don't see parallels you're blind. It is absolutely amazing to read about everything that fell to Hitler in the 30's without firing a shot.  It happened on the strength of his personality.

268 There is something going on with Obama's birth certificate. That's why he spent $1 million in legal fees not to release it.

It has something embarrassing (he's listed as Muslim in Religion, or his mother is listed as unmarried, or what have you) or worse.

We don't KNOW.

It's probably something stupid and embarrassing, not disqualifying, but you never know. He might be listed as a Kenyan citizen, or what have you on the certificate. Probably not disqualifying but creating a huge fight.

And I disagree with you profoundly.

What Liberals did with George W. Bush was "eat an elephant." One spoonful at a time.

The more we mock Obama, suggest that in every way he is illegitimate, and make him seem exactly what he is, the more we win.

NOT by long drawn out arguments, but by casual jokes asserting he's not an American. By casual jokes asserting he's a secret Muslim. By casual jokes asserting he's a closet Communist.

In a way that offers no rebuttal (as the "Bush is stupid" jokes offered no rebuttal) and plants the seed. One person at a time.

269 Posted by: Ella at February 27, 2009 03:31 PM (jeP9I)

So the COLB is no good because it's not the original birth certificate. And even if a COLB was good enough, then this one is faked. And no one has really seen it because the people who did see it are stooges and can't be trusted. And on and on and on. It's all about the layers.

And this is different from your typical Art Bell/Alex Jones/Jerome Corsi/Rossie O'Donnell thinking how exactly?

270 Good one, Ace. Although it may be a public service to expose Kincaid's totally unforced error, it seems that anything like that brings out the Birther Brigades. I'm watching CPAC, with a lot of great ideas, and you see what happens? Forget about the ideas - find that bc! Newt knows how to poke the other side. The Birthers? Bunch of fucking deadenders. If you people are so passionate about it, put your money where your mouth is & sue all the way to the Supreme Court. Otherwise, there are people at this conference who are talking about the possibilities of a way forward. The only good thing that can happen is the Birthers are marginalized and cast out of the way like the Birch society was so many moons ago. Good fucking riddance.

271

Well hannitys_hybrid, Napoleon Bonaparte was very similar too.

Napoleon was a Corsican, not a Frenchman at all.  He spoke French with a foreign accent and never to his dying day learned to write orders in French.  A lot of lives would have been saved in that case as well had Frenchmen not followed a foreigner as their leader.

272

Creepy judge porn: Doesn't marginalize the party

Joke about a birth certificate:  Does marginalize the party

First, the judge situation barely relates to the Republican party. Judge Kozinski may be a Republican, I don't know. But one thing is clear is that he doesn't represent Republicans.

On the other hand, a speaker from a conservative media watchdog group introducing a Republican congressman at a conservative political action conference who is then cheered on by attendees absolutely represents Republicans.

If Kozinski messed up, no biggie, it does us no damage. But when CPAC devotes itself to Birther conspiracies we're in big trouble.

273 Another problem here is that the vast majority of the media works as the Democrats PR office.

They smear our candidates, and it's no big deal.  It's treated as legitimate criticism.

We smear their candidates (or even just tell the truth), and it's "gutter politics".

274 It will not be productive to go after the administration on things that Obama has already been given a pass on.

Well, that's like, everything.

275

#272 - You're exactly right, Gabe. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't hear one groan, boo, nothing from the crowd. And Kincaid's "joke" wasn't even funny. Just stupid.

Great - Herr Docktor Ron Paul up next on the dais. Just great.....

276

"If you people are so passionate about it, put your money where your mouth is & sue all the way to the Supreme Court."  ~Paulie in AZ 03:53 PM

You probably don't know this, Paulie, but in order to bring a lawsuit you have to have grounds for proving personal damages.

There are public officials whose jobs are to see that everything is on the up and up and that candidates meet the requirements of the law in an election and these officials are apparently not doing their job when it comes to Obama in any number of electorial irregularities which have gone on in 2008.

277

Spoken just like a lawyer.

Don't try to tell me the Kozinski affair wasn't a consevative issue.  Conservative bloggers made it their cause.  Like it or not, people just like you adopted the issue and made it ours. It does reflect.

278

And again, Gabby, you're just flat out incorrect.  CPAC doesn't represent "Republicans", and tossing out a line like that doesn't devote anyone to anything.

If your POV is representative of Republican leadership, then we can all prepare for Obama's 2nd term now.

279

Plus, my guess is that in one day, a blog like Ace's gets more views than all the CPACs put together.

You really like to nuance the heck out of stuff, don't you? 

280

#274

right, the MSM will give him a pass on everything, the only reason that some here give for ripping up Palin and Joe is that they make us look bad in the Press, fuck the Press! the Press will try to make us look bad no matter what we do, no matter what we say, forget the press, we have to go around the Press and speak directly to ppl, but we don't - where are our GOP leaders, why aren't they all over the TV and radio and internet, what the fuck are they doing? they are sitting around in their Ivory Towers with their thumbs up their asses while the rank and file stand out in the cold and rain why aren't our Leaders out there in the rain and cold with our ppl? why?  

281

#276 - I'm no lawyer, but I'll take your word for it. So what you're saying is that there really is no recourse for the Birthers in the legal system. That's why the Birthers are deadenders. There's nothing that can be done about it now. Deal with it. It's the reality. As conservatives, you learn to deal with the realities of life, unlike our friends across the aisle who want to deal in the world they think exists. The other thing conservatives (I hope) do is learn from the mistakes so they are not permitted to recur.

As far as the other irregularities, I agree (campaign money, vote fraud, etc.). But I ain't dying on the Birther hill.

282

believe it or not, that's your choice, but use it, it's a weapon, don't make any claims that can be proved, say it as joke, say it as an insult, use it the way they use unfounded claims to demean, to belittle, to plant a seed...

i truly don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend for some, it's like we handicap ourselves everyday

283

#278 - And again, Gabby, you're just flat out incorrect.  CPAC doesn't represent "Republicans", and tossing out a line like that doesn't devote anyone to anything.

Really? CPAC is part of the Republican party - they're in the tent. Are they Democrats? Are they Libertarians? (maybe some) Are they thai tranny hookers? Kincaid made an unfortunate and stupid error which will be plastered everywhere as a Republican thing. Gabe is right - you, Jess, are incorrect.

Herr Dr. now is claiming that we killed 1 mil Iraquis, need the gold standard, etc. etc. etc. Can someone tell him the campaign is over?

284 I don't intend to "die of the Birther hill". But I do drop it into casual conversation with my lefty friend/relatives,/acquaintances, just to make 'em squirm (like several pre4vious posters have suggested). The issue works very well in that respect.

285

As far as the other irregularities, I agree (campaign money, vote fraud, etc.). But I ain't dying on the Birther hill. #281

Yeah, well the remedy for the campaign money, vote fraud, etc. is the same as for the BC so I guess you aren't any better than the Birthers you have contempt for. 

That the birth certificate issue is a constitutional issue and that campaign money and vote fraud are lesser laws just shows what a real American you really are.  Me, I'm a Canadian and the birth certificate issue is gonna be a great little piece of ammo whenever some smug American tells me what a great constitution the U.S. has and what wisdom and foresight the "Founding Fathers" had.  Oh, and I see that your President has as much respect for your Second Amendment as he does for constitutional requirements for Presidential candidates and lesser electoral laws.  Good'onya.

286 #285 - Speller - I hope that's not what I'm reading, but that comment seems to be questioning my US of A citizen and patriotic status. Please tell me that's not what you meant.

287

"CPAC is part of the Republican party"

 

Really? 'Cause I missed that in the ACU's Statement of Principles.

288

Don't try to tell me the Kozinski affair wasn't a consevative issue.  Conservative bloggers made it their cause. 

No, Patterico made it his own cause. Allahpundit mentioned it. I may or may not have posted on it (I don't remember). But in Patterico's and my cases, it's because we know the judge. Allah, initially posted it to lambast the judge, but updated with corrections after the non-pornographic and humorous nature of the the situation was actually explained to him.

Now, just because "conservative bloggers" mentioned it, does not make it a "conservative issue." And as I said earlier, if Judge Kozinski gets in trouble it doesn't reflect on the Republican party. We don't even know that he's actually a Republican.

A bunch of people standing around at CPAC cheering on Birtherism from some grand high muckety-muck in a cosnervative media watchdog group as he introduces a Republican congressman very much represents the Republican party.

289

And at HotAir, you can't tell the leftist trolls (like shit-for-brains-storm) from the RINOs shitting on Joe the Plumber.

290

"CPAC is part of the Republican party"

Oh goodie, let's pretend that CPAC has nothing to do with Republicans. Gosh, it's awfully lonely here in La-La Land.

291 right, the MSM will give him a pass on everything, the only reason that some here give for ripping up Palin and Joe is that they make us look bad in the Press, fuck the Press! the Press will try to make us look bad no matter what we do, no matter what we say, forget the press, we have to go around the Press and speak directly to ppl, but we don't - where are our GOP leaders, why aren't they all over the TV and radio and internet, what the fuck are they doing? they are sitting around in their Ivory Towers with their thumbs up their asses while the rank and file stand out in the cold and rain why aren't our Leaders out there in the rain and cold with our ppl? why? 

Amen.

As noted more than once already, the Dems and press will paint us as crackpots no matter what we do.  They aren't going to like us, unless we just give up and become Democrats.  And the Republicans they might tout as acceptable will be the ones least likely to win (or most likely to be easily beaten).  See:  McCain, John.

So:  Fuck 'em.  We need to stop trying to win their approval, because it isn't going to happen.

We need to adopt "Chicago rules".  They bring a baseball bat, we bring a knife.  They bring a knife, we bring a gun.  And so on.

When your opponent will use any available tactic, you'd better be willing to do it, too.

Where are our Republican leaders?  Some of them are at CPAC, which reaches a very small slice of the voting public.  So whoop de doo.  Some of them are cowering in fear, or fawning in hopes of basking in The One's reflected glory.

If and when it does become torches-and-pitchforks time, there are plenty of alleged GOP leaders who deserve the lash, along with the Dems and the media.

292

Heeeeeere's Romney! Stand back - K-Lo, Hewitt and Republican elitists swooning. It may hurt when they faint on you....

And Jess, you didn't address my objection to your statement that CPAC isn't in the Republican tent. I'm watching the speakers and I don't see any crawls saying "Joe Blow (CPAC). I see all the speakers as Joe Blow (R).

293

 questioning my US of A citizen and patriotic status.

Not at all, Paulie. 

Not any more than you actually mean you're going to die on some hill.  It's clear that lesser laws are more important to you than the U.S. constitution.  I understand you're that kind of American. 

Other Americans, say ones that care about the constitution, are a different kind and denigrated by some as Birthers.  No biggie.

Thanks for using my nic instead of just a number.

 

294

OK, Speller, riddle me this: Where in the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA does it say how, or even if, any POTUS candidate has to prove that they are born in the US of A. Yeah, ya better gather up all those bc's from George Washington, John Adams, etc. The Constitution does not address the proof aspect, it just says that they "shall be".

You know, I think that Canucks are some of the nicest people I have ever met. You sir, are a dick. Clean up your own maggot-infested, dhimmi country 1st before you spout your high & mighty shit to me. Don't fucking tell me what I think should most important in my mind, or what the progression of importance should be. Great - an imported deadender....

I apologize for the cranky tone - but not the substance.....

295

I once knew a guy named Paulie,  he was a dick too.

296

OK, Speller, riddle me this: Where in the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA does it say how, or even if, any POTUS candidate has to prove that they are born in the US of A. Yeah, ya better gather up all those bc's from George Washington, John Adams, etc. The Constitution does not address the proof aspect, it just says that they "shall be".

So the question arisese whether such proof can be ordered by a Court or may instead be considered by the Electors and Congress.  I believe that the Constitution rests the determination with the Electors for certain and perhaps Congress. I am less convinced that the Constitution intended that the Courts be able to insert themselves into elections.

297

i know this thread has ruffled a few feathers, but we all have a better understanding of each other now than before this thread was posted,

this whole split thing has to get settled before we can move forward, it can drag on for years and we will continue to lose or we can come to some kind of agreement and get started now on what needs to be done, we are paralyzed until this is settled, Fucker Carlson got booed off the stage at CPAC i just heard. perfect example of what i'm talking about

298 Forget about the COLB, and the birthers, for a moment, and concentrate on one thing with regard to our current President -- Bullshit. (It's a book -- look it up at Amazon.) He fits the definition perfectly. It's not that bullshitters lie, so much that truth has no value to them.

Which brings us to Obama's life story -- it's a crock. Mark Steyn (not a birther, as far as I know) called out Obama once as "inventing himself" in college. I think it began way before that -- his mother invented him, and there's no evidence, aside from far left Congressman Neil Abercrombie's convenient memories of the sweet, sweet relationship between O's mother and the student from Kenya (not shared by any of the crowd at UH who knew Obama, Sr., including Abercrombie's own brother) -- that the two even knew each other.  As a matter of fact, Stanley Ann Dunham has been tracked and witnessed as living in Seattle and attending (or taking distance learning courses) at the the UW in Seattle from soon after O's birth to well after Sr. left Hawaii. IOW, she never lived with the guy as his wife, and aside from Abercrombie, there's no proof -- photographic or otherwise -- that she even knew the guy, prior to his reappearance in Hawaii ten years later (at a time he was on the down and out in Kenya political circles, and flat broke).

But none of that's important, right? Proving that the life story that propelled this guy to the Presidency, and our current socialist crisis, isn't worth a good GD -- for Drew, Gabriel, Ace, Allah, Ed, etc. -- because it makes us look, uh, silly?

The hell with Corsi, Berg, Keyes and the rest of the them. Here's an honest question: did any of you even read "Dreams From Father," or all the follow-up research put on out on responsible, non-birther, blogs, debunking various aspects of it with facts?

Wouldn't it be a tad bit embarrassing to find out that there's no connection between O and Kenya (a good third of the book that made him a millionaire and propelled him to the Presidency)? That maybe his father is someone other than that gloriously emblematic symbol of white supremicism?

But, hey, never mind, let's go with deconstructing the budget -- something that most Americans can't and won't understand until it's too late -- let's keep that conversation on an intellectual level, which is the way the Dems pushed their way back into power, isn't it?

Oh, it isn't? Never mind. Carry on with failure -- but by all means, retain those blog hits. Very entertaining, that, while Rome the Republic burns.

299

Remember who's calling you a birther.

Gabe you fit right in at a conservative conference with your anti death penalty, pro gay marriage, pro choice, international law , california style Republicanism.  Yeah team!

300 Posted by: JBean at February 27, 2009 05:40 PM (ic+++)

Wait, so the birth certificate isn't important as a matter of determining citizenship but to debunk his biographical narrative? Are you saying that Obama is hiding the fact that his father isn't Obama Sr. but someone else and he knows this but he built a narrative around being the son of a Kenyan? 

Do you really think he won because off his unusual family and not in spite of it? Really?

And the contemporaneous birth announcement that lists Barack H. Obama Sr. as the father? That was just some plant to further the narrative that wouldn't pay off for 46 years? Or wait! Maybe there was time travel involved...was it Axlerod or Plouf who went back in the time machine and did it? Oh, maybe it was Bill Ayers!

That's how clever Obama is boys and girls, he knew the secret to becoming President is to pretend you are the son of a foreigner you never knew.

L-A-Y-E-R-S!

301  We have no president currently.

302 ok, i've got to read the archives

303

So the only reason people lie about things is because they expect their child to run for President? Is that the strawman you were trying to create?

304 Compared to the Leftist fever swamp of grand conspiracies of mass murder of fellow Americans in pursuit of oil money, I think wanting to see a document that has remained conspicuously hidden is a pretty mild charge to bear.


No kidding. It irks me when people on the right give in to this fantasy that the road to power involves acting sober and sensible and not saying anything that would not pass muster with The Economist. If we followed the lefts (successful) tack then everybody at CPAC would have been denouncing Obama as an extraterrestrial being who drinks childrens blood for breakfast.

It's also an odd argument to see on this blog in particular.

305 238  When it comes to Obama, for the past 2 years it's been:

"You cannot discuss Obama's ______ [birth certificate, association with Ayers, Rezko, socialist/communist beliefs, withholding of college transcripts, medical records, etc.] because it makes you look like a kooky conspiracy theorist."

Eff that.

The birth certificate stuff is just silly.  The others were legitimate issues - in 2008.  They don't mean anything now he's been elected and in 2012, they'll be very stale news.  You'll have four years of his record with which to figuratively bash him.

306 238

When it comes to Obama, for the past 2 years it's been:

"You cannot discuss Obama's ______ [birth certificate, association with Ayers, Rezko, socialist/communist beliefs, withholding of college transcripts, medical records, etc.] because it makes you look like a kooky conspiracy theorist."

Eff that.

The birth certificate stuff is just silly.  The others were legitimate issues - in 2008.  They don't mean anything now he's been elected and in 2012, they'll be very stale news.  You'll have four years of his record with which to figuratively bash him.

307 # 104

Well said.

# 193  Furthermore, Hawaii allows foreign births to be registered as Hawaiian births.

If you had checked Hawaii law, you'd find that that they will issue a COLB for foreign born children.  They will, however, note the actual foreign place of birth, not Hawaii.

# 91 Again, what's wrong with providing it if you know it's there?

The question is why should he?  To satisfy some internet posters who won't vote for him under any circumstances?  To prevent  an issue that's going nowhere from continuing to go nowhere?  To persuade people who would only say the long form released was forged?  Why should he do anything to stop his opponents from making themselves look silly?  It's not as if this will persuade anyone in the middle to vote for a Republican in 2012.  It's more likely to cause them to vote to reelect Obama.

# 167 Another document that then matters is his parent's marriage certificate - haven't seen that either.

Could you show me the bit in the Constitution or US Code where that would be relevant?

# 3  I guess it's too much to ask that the POTUS prove that he's eligible for the gig.

# 7  I can't get a driver's license without presenting a birth certificate, but he can become President.

# 118  Obama fails to produce proof of live birth in the United States,



Except that he has.  He has presented a valid Hawaii birth certificate, valid enough that he could use it to join the Army or get a US passport.  Those from  certain other states may not be good enough, but Hawaii's are.  It shows the place and date of birth that are on the vault copy certificate. 

# 192 you could . . . register a foreign birth and a COLB printed today would look the same as if you were born in an Oahu hospital.

Hawaii will change some things on a BC, but not those. They will register an out of state birth, but it will show the actual place of birth, not one in Hawaii.  If his short form says he was born in Honolulu, and it does, and that he was born in 1961, and it does, then he is eligible to be president.  If it says his father was "Barack Hussein Obama" Senior and his race is "African", as it does, that's what shows on the long form - also called a Certificate of Live Birth, by the way..

As for the claims that he somehow may have given up his citizenship at one point by possibly giving an overseas place of birth on a college application or using an Indonesian passport - that won't do it.  About the only way for him to give up citizenship is to go before an American consular official and formally renounce his citizenship.  There is absolutely no evidence or claim that he has done so.

There's lots of room to oppose him on legitimate grounds without wallowing in foolishness that only makes him look good by comparison.

308

Ah, P - I said no such thing.  What I've pointed out is that CPAC isn't a part of the Republican Party (RNC), nor are the massive electorial failures of the Republican Party a referendum on Conservatism.

 

309

dave aaa.  Has he presented a BC or a COLB?

310

pro choice

Once more, fuck you. I'm pro-life and have never writetn anything here (or anywhere) that would make you think otherwise. Keep making shit up.

 

311 Also, I have no idea what "california style republicanism" is.

312

pro choice

Once more, fuck you. I'm pro-life

My mistake and I apologize for that.

313

Where [...] does it say how, or even if, any POTUS candidate has to prove --- strawman argument

I believe it says he has to be a natural born American.  Not an import.  The idea that the constitution must demand or describe proof is a red herring.  It's mealy mouthed waffling on the order of Bill Clinton arguing about the definition of is.

Clean up your own maggot-infested, dhimmi country 1st before you spout your high & mighty shit to me. Don't fucking tell me what I think should most important in my mind, or what the progression of importance should be. ~ Paulie in AZ 05:18 PM

Canada is the cleanest G8 country.  Far cleaner than the U.S. As a matter of record, the province of Alberta, where I reside, is the only rat free jurisdiction on the planet.  I don't know why you would call us dhimmis, we didn't host Arafat or  Ahmadinejad and we export our oil and gas to the U.S.  Muslim countries have nothing Canada wants or needs.

As your reading comprehension is so poor, Paulie, I have to tell you that I didn't try to tell you what I think should be most important in your mind, or what the progression of importance should be.  Rather, I told you what I thought of your hierarchy of importance in comparison to Americans who had, IMO, a superior hierarchy.  But that would just be the opinion of a deadend Birther import from a country that's doing better now and will be doing better sooner and later, economically, than your own. 

314  No matter how wacky some of the libs get, other libs never ever bash them, they are unified, but now conservatives are calling me a "Birther" because I think the Constitution must be adhered to. That's just fucking great.

315

And a nut threatens Obama even though the nut probably isn't a BC truther. (Will this hurt perceptions about the involved group?)

316 Barry Seoto, aka, Barack Obama should produce his identification papers like everyone else. Otherwise, some animal would be more equal than others.

317

My mistake and I apologize for that.

S'okay.

318 "We don't even know that he's actually a Republican."

We don't know if domestically produced oil is Republican either but it seems to be a conservative issue.

You want to bash "birthers" as you call them for bringing the party down but a couple of days ago you were calling for a compromise on same-sex marriage. 

Wish issue do you think is more likely a loser for the party? 

319 Apostate!!!!!!!
Just to lighten the mood......S

320 Anybody with a credit card and a computer could find out where I was born,who delivered me,what my grades were K-university. If I were a messiah, that would all go away.

321

I remember that McCain was vetted by the  senate and Obama voted that he was a natural born citizen. Where was the same vetting for Obama? The democrats joined Obama in the lawsuit (Burg) instead of vetting him. To date Obama has spent $800,000 dollars to keep it hidden from you and then have his minions use ridicule when people want to know why....well, it stinks, not one case has been 'won' on the merits but instead have been sidestepped by high priced lawyers....I want to know why....since the DNC joined the law suit,  if Obama loses they will also lose. It will be the end of the DNC. So it is very important to the DNC that people ridicule the effort to find out. So I don't care what anyone says I still want to know.

But one good thing, Obama's 3 teams of lawyers have job security.

 

Military Action now has 93 Plaintiffs including 8 Active and a large number of Active Reserves

322 Hey, as a supporter of the first bailout, I would like to mention that that would have been just a mere(10th?) fraction of what we are doing now. No one is claiming the economy will crash if we didn't push the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc through, except of course Moonbats. But they always do that for pork.

Besides, I guarenfuckingtee the reason McCain lost is not because of that first bailout. Anyone remember him not even mentioning those dirty "conservative words"? I honor him for his wartime service, but I hope he never gets into any presidential race ever again. He makes me angry, and that doesn't happen often with me.

323 I have to agree, even if you think the certificate issue is important, I'm annoyed at how arrogant Obama is, it's no longer news. It's stale. Move on. Independents will not be swayed.

We already have tons of ammo to hit him on that will ACTUALLY affect people.

Please MoveOn!

324 "Hey, as a supporter of the first bailout..."

That is not a real popular way to win friends and influence enemies. 

325

Paulie at #294,

The 20th Amendment: "...If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, OR IF THE PRESIDENT ELECT SHALL HAVE FAILED TO QUALIFY, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified..."

The only qualifications for a President elect (one who has already received enough electoral votes) is what's in the Constitution: age, residency, and a natural-born citizen. This amendment clearly states that someone who is already elected president STILL HAS TO QUALIFY - and if he/she doesn't, then he/she is to be replaced, with the vice-president (if he/she qualifies) serving until a new, QUALIFIED president is chosen.

But hey, the First Amendment also speaks of the people's right  to petition the government for a redress of grievances, and the SCOTUS has consistently told ALL of us that we have NO checks on the system. Once somebody is elected, none of us has STANDING to hold them accountable to follow their own laws. That's the lesson of Jennifer Brunner (HEVA law doesn't have to be followed, and both Donofrio's and Wrotnowski's cases (neither NJ nor CT Sec of States have to follow their own election laws by verifying eligibility of all candidates on the ballot; SCOTUS doesn't even consider the cases worthy of a decision.

Did you catch that? Congress could declare this the People's Republic of America, center of the Islamic caliphate, and we couldn't do a darned thing short of revolution. The courts have already taken away the STANDING of ordinary citizens to keep their elected officials honest through the courts.

That's why this economic crap is so jarring. We have no Constitution. The folks in Washington, DC can do ANYTHING to us and we have no recourse except revolution. We can elect somebody new later, but they can't undo what the crooks have already enacted. (Blago, anyone?)That's why this isn't just peanuts and giggles. This is an affront to our entire system of lawfulness and government by the people.

That's why it jars me so to hear you folks talk like you are. Tell me again, just to humor me, why the Constitution, including the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances, the requirements for a Commander in Chief, and the 20th Amendment, is a mere trifle.

Then tell that to the families of the men who have died defending that Constitution and the men who may yet face court-martial for obeying a fraud dressed in presidential clothes. The rule of law is what has made us America. You're telling me that America is a trifle.

I don't buy it, and if that means I'm too shitty to fit in with you "credible" people, then so be it.

326

To those yelling "FOCUS! FOCUS": congratulations, your shit got us fucked, you bunch of moderate assmunchers.

Permanent minority cranks? You can leave off the "cranks" part, no matter how batshit insane any of us are. The crypto-commies are in power, and they have solidified their hold on the country so much that they now have so-called "conservatives" (a.k.a., Randian libertarians mugged by Islam) licking their asscracks and begging to be Democrat-lite.

My fondest wish is to live long enough to see you choking on Strobe Talbott, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Soros, and UN cock, you worthless bags of sheep shit.

327 Yeah, I've been drinking, fuck all y'all.

328 I wish that everyone who slams this issue would show us their copies of Obama's original birth certificate.

329

#328 Or name one person in all Obama's years of politics who has ever seen the birth certificate signature of the doctor present at his birth - or even the name of the hospital where he was born.

Even with what we know of this guy, he couldn't pass the security test to become a private in the army. His social security number was given from Connecticut under the name Barack Obama while he was living in Hawaii with the legal name Barry Soetoro - the same name under which he received foreign student aid from the State of California as an adult at age 18, according to California Assembly records of 1981.

Somebody tell me how THAT happened.

330

I'm planning a vacation to Hawaii. What hospital was he born in? I want to worship the bed he was born in.

/sarc

I looked all over the interwebs and even factcheck, cannot find a simple name.

331

Drew, you intimated that "Birthers" will never be content with documentation. There are ways of verifying a claim. For instance, Barack and his sister, Maya, have each given a different Hawaii hospital that he was supposedly born at. Those hsospitals would have birth records to corroborate the claims.

Philip Berg has a witness-signed, notorized copy of a birth certificate from Coast Provincial Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya. When Jerome Corsi was going to investigate hospital records in Mombasa he was arrested and held in Kenyan military custody until his plane left later that day. And then Obama's cousin, Raila Odinga, declared that any hospital records for Barack Obama in Kenya would be sealed until after the election. After Obama's paternal grandmother told a reporter he was born in Mombasa, Odinga blocked off the Obama residence with police and forbade any media contact with the family until after the election.

Strange, no?

332 Koolaid Tourist, you should go to Kenya. I've heard a tape of a Kenyan official saying on a radio program that they will erect a monument in Mombasa in honor of Obama's birth there.

333

The crypto-commies are in power, and they have solidified their hold on the country so much that they now have so-called "conservatives" (a.k.a., Randian libertarians mugged by Islam) licking their asscracks and begging to be Democrat-lite.

Drunk or not, this is a bull's-eye.

334 I'm a pretty uptight puckerhole, not prone to conspiracies at all, but I think this issue is legit.

The fucker ain't American!

BTW Ace, you were for the bailout and I'm forever against it.

Too big to fail? Who the fuck is small enough to fail?

335 Posted by: justincase at February 27, 2009 10:38 PM (DzSTc)

Maya is almost 10 years younger than Obama and was born in another country. The fact she may have gotten the name of the hospital where her older brother was born is not exactly a smoking gun or even an mildly interesting data point.

As for the grandmother, you do know that it was a mistranslation and that after they re-translated it she said he was born in Hawaii, right?

I eagerly await word on why none of this is relevant and all part of some bigger mystery.

336 At the end of the day, could we get some guidance from those attending CPAC?

Much of the negative feedback comes from the negative coverage.  I tend to assume that 3/4's of anything sucks.  That's some breaking news right there: bunch of politicians speak, retarded and boring, news at 11.  You feed people shit all day and act surprised when they puke shit back at you.

So wow me already.  Who didn't suck? 

Looking for a scoop?  There it is.  Don't be ironic.  Just report on the one or two things that sounded good.

Please.

'Cause, I'm not seeing it, not here, not anywhere.

337 Is that so hard?  To progress past an ironic sophomore in college?

What doesn't suck?

Flowers, children, women in sundresses?

Multiple rhetorical questions?

338

No, Drew. She didn't say he was born in Hawaii. If you read the affidavit of the man who translated into Swahili during the conversation, he says that it was the grandson who was with Sarah who claimed that. She herself says she was there when Obama was born. Later the grandson said Obama was born in Hawaii. McRae asks how Sarah was there if he was born in Hawaii. The grandson then says that Sarah NEVER SAID she was there at his birth - even though he translated her saying exactly that just a minute before.

None of the talk about Obama being born in Hawaii went through the translation to Swahili, which would have been necessary if Sarah had been asked any of those questions. It was all just the grandson talking, contradicting what Sarah Obama had just said. IOW, Sarah gave her answer and then the grandson tried to do damage control, leaving Sarah out of the conversation after her initial "blunder". The affidavit is at http://themountainsage.files.  wordpress.com/2008/11/obama-affidavit-of-kweli-  shuhubia10302008corr1.pdf . That affidavit also gives details of the Mombasa hospital information. You should read it. Slate didn't get it right. Check it out.

339 justincase, that's fantastic.  You're just puking into your own mouth.  Tastes like victory, huh.

Guess what, justincase, I don't blame you.  If it all sucks, why not pick a sucky cause?  Oddly enough, there is a decent chance that someone at CPAC gave you a better battle to fight today.

You'll never hear about it though.

340

Also, Drew, notice that I didn't say your comments were irrelevant. I said they were inaccurate based on Slate's misrepresentation of the conversation, and then I gave you the link to the sworn affidavit which also gave names of officials in Kenya who explained why Obama's Mombasa birth records were sealed.

I'm dealing with sworn affidavits rather than with Slate. I think that's credible sourcing, don't you?

Would you agree that Slate conveniently left out the eyewitness account in the affidavit? When you listen to the recording do you hear any translation to Swahili - which would have been necessary if SARAH was the one answering the questions saying Obama was born in Hawaii?

Let's see if we can agree on the facts of this recording.

341 Counter, I'm waiting for you to tell me why the Constitution is trivial so I can pass it on to our troops in harm's way. Don't be shy. Make a nice, convincing argument for our brave defenders who are giving their lives for the sake of "puke in my mouth" (the US Constitution).

342 Zombie Reagan.  Do we go by his birth certificate or his as-not-yet-released undead certificate?

343 justincase, again, I honestly have nothing against you.  I have something against those unwilling to give you something to fight for.

344 Posted by: justincase at February 28, 2009 12:39 AM (DzSTc)

Your link doesn't work.

345

The framers of our Constitution give me something to fight for. And every man and woman who has died defending that Constitution gives me hope to fight. They are the ones I haven't given up on yet.

From "Flanders Fields": Take up the quarrel with the foe. To you from failing hands we throw the torch. Be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die we shall not sleep, though poppies blow in Flander's Fields.

While the Republican party tries to be relevant, I hold fast to the belief that what our finest men and women have died for is infinitely worth what it costs. That is what supposedly held us together after 9-11, and I think if people understand it, this issue of America's very essence will resonate far more deeply than any single conservative issue.

346 Take out the spaces. I don't know how to do tinyurl and tbog won't let me post it without the spaces to break it up.

347 I'm dealing with sworn affidavits rather than with Slate. I think that's credible sourcing, don't you?

Depends on who is swearing to it.

Did you listen to the tape? Considering the quality the connection and the fact that the guy doing the 'interview' set more than once that Obama was her son and not grandson, I'd say there were more than ample opportunities for mistakes and miscommunication.

Listen to it your self. It starts right around 5:30 or so. The second translator corrects it right away. It's a fucking joke to claim that's proof of anything or even raises some sort of suspicion.

348 justincase, what can I disagree with?  Nothing.

Yet, wouldn't our fathers focus on the greater and more obvious dissolution of our united principles before a yet proven smaller instance of same?

Did Henry most betray by his standing or by his actions?

I say actions.

349 309  dave aaa.  Has he presented a BC or a COLB?

Posted by: polynikes at February 27, 2009 06:16 PM (m2CN7)

Same thing. Both the long form vault copy on file and the certified abstract he has shown are called "Certificate of Live Birth" in Hawaii.  Your issuing authority may have another name.

314  No matter how wacky some of the libs get, other libs never ever bash them, they are unified, but now conservatives are calling me a "Birther" because I think the Constitution must be adhered to. That's just fucking great.

Posted by: Fishleg at February 27, 2009 06:38 PM (Bffhq)

No, we're calling people "Birthers" because they insist, in spite of sufficient evidence to the contrary, that Obama has not adhered to the Constitution when he has - at least in this matter.

329 Even with what we know of this guy, he couldn't pass the security test to become a private in the army.

Somebody tell me how THAT happened.

Posted by: justincase at February 27, 2009 10:20 PM (DzSTc)

Can you show me the bit in the Constitution that says anything about a security clearance being necessary to be elected?  Otherwise, the way it happened is that enough people didn't care enough about that issue to lose him the election.

331  Philip Berg has a witness-signed, notorized copy of a birth certificate from Coast Provincial Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya.

Posted by: justincase at February 27, 2009 10:38 PM (DzSTc)

So who else has seen this?

350 Most importantly, the news of the day is that everyone at CPAC is full of shit and there is nothing worth fighting for.

Ehhh, maybe that's the lesson, who knows, everything sucks.  Let's fight over nothing forever and then one more day just to be sure.

351

I have listened to it. Did you hear Swahili translation when the Hawaii birth claims were being made? Let's stick with the basic facts. If it wasn't translated then Sarah had no idea what was even being said - much less contradicted what she had just said..

Shuhubia was willing to put his signature on his testimony with a tape to back it up. That's more than Obama has ever offered. There was no bad connection for him; he was right there.

Did you hear the grandson (Ogombe) translate, "Yes. She says, 'Yes she was. She was present when Obama was born.'"? And then did you hear him deny it later?

352 340  I'm dealing with sworn affidavits rather than with Slate. I think that's credible sourcing, don't you?

Posted by: justincase at February 28, 2009 12:50 AM (DzSTc)

So lets see, on the one hand we have a second hand statement from a guy in Kenya, who can't be prosecuted for perjury, about what he says a octogenarian claims to recall about something that happened nearly half a century ago - or a certified abstract of a 1961 Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth.

Who to believe?

353 Here's the problem with punditry.  Allah's worried that Ace might make fun of him for actually liking something without irony.  Ace is worried that Allah will make fun of him for same.  (It's a metaphor obviously, Allah stands for half the prepubescent kids that would make fun of you for saying a girl is pretty and Ace stands for the other half.)

It's childish.

Someone could prove me wrong.  Someone could actually like something.

354 I love how in the affidavit he says Obama's "birth in Kenya is top secret" while earlier he says "it is common knowledge" in Kenya that Obama was born there.

Yep, that's a real credible statement you have there. Awesome!

355

DaveAAA. The Constitution doesn't require a security clearance. The 20th Amendment requires that the president-elect (who has already received enough electoral votes to be the president-elect, obviously) also QUALIFY. The Constitution gives 3 qualifications: age, residency, and natural-born citizenship.

It was up to Obama to qualify himself before Jan 20th, on pain of being replaced if he didn't. Not only did he fail to do it, he spent big bucks to argue that it's nobody's business whether he qualifies or not.

I do think it's ironic to ask every "lowly" grunt to obey a man who flips them the bird when they just ask to see his credentials. A man who breaks his presidential oath to defend and uphold the Constitution simply by making it.

356 Someone could actually like something.

I like beer. Does that count?

357 It was up to Obama to qualify himself before Jan 20th,

This is a question I always mean to ask and never get around to...what exactly is the Constitutional mechanism for proving those 3 things? Don't tell me what you'd like or would have him do, quote me something from the Constitution that lays out how a candidate proves his eligibility and to whom.

358

DaveAAA. Maya Soetoro was born in Indonesia and has a Hawaii COLB. So what does a Hawaii COLB prove, even if it is authentic?

And what records did Odinga seal in Kenya anyway, if Obama wasn't born there?

359 DrewM., my gut says yes, unfortunately.

Hey, sorry about being an asshole here.  I just want this self-loathing period to end.  I don't care if we all decide we hate Volvos.  I'm ready to start hating on Volvos. 

360 Hey, everybody here seems to *know* Obama was born in Hawaii but the SOS of Hawaii says his birth record is top secret (confidential). Doesn't that make you all as credible as the one your are belittling?

361 Maya Soetoro was born in Indonesia and has a Hawaii COLB.

Does it say she was born in Hawaii?

362 justincase, last try.

The Old Man and the Sea.  If you do eventually bring this home, it's already been eaten by the voyage.

363 but the SOS of Hawaii says his birth record is top secret

That's just pure bullshit.

State law prohibits the release of a birth certificate except to a person seeking his or her own certificate and the person's spouse, parent and legal guardian.

But health officials have been receiving numerous e-mail and phone requests for the document, according to Janice Okubo, Heath Department spokeswoman.

Health Director Chiyome Fukino said she and the vital statistics registrar viewed and verified Obama's birth certificate.

"No state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawaii," Fukino said.

Just because Jerome Corsi and assorted nutters can't have what they aren't entitled to doesn't mean it's been 'sealed' or is 'top secret'. It simply means the law is being followed. Radical stuff, right?

364

Drew, the Constitution doesn't say that specifically. Right now there are a few states which require their SOS to verify eligibility of any name printed on the ballot. All have openly admitted they never did (which is an admission that their ballots were illegal). But the First Amendment refers to the people's right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. IOW, if someone wants to contest the eligibility they have that right. But SCOTUS says it's nobody's business.

Bush v Gore ruled that Florida election law had to be followed in a national election. NJ and CT SOS's openly admit their ballots were illegal. SCOTUS winked at them. Echoes of Chicago?

365

Why wouldn't the HI SOS show the birth certificate? Obama wanted it top secret and they had to treat it so.

Just like the registrar in Kenya, who said exactly what Lingle said: We have it here but someone won't let us show it to you.

Why is it bullshit when he (the registrar in Kenya) says it but not when she (Lingle) says it?

366 the Constitution doesn't say that specifically.

So how can you say that releasing his CoLB doesn't meet the constitutional standard of proof? The Electors who are charged with actually electing the President were satisfied. No member of Congress who are charged with certifying the votes have raised an issue and no court has found a legitimate cause of action.

Those seem to be 3 very important parts of the constitution's election scheme and yet the birthers say Obama hasn't lived up to some nebulously defined (in the sense you can't point to specific language in the consttution) obligation to prove his citizenship.

The simple fact is, Obama hasn't lived up to their personal views and wishes but those things are not synonymous with the mandates of the constitution.

367 My computer lets me type 4 letters at a time right now. I'll catch you in the morning maybe. What facts can we agree on about the Sarah tape? Swahili Hawaii talk, or no?

368 Why wouldn't the HI SOS show the birth certificate?

Because they aren't allowed to by law. Read the quote above and you'll see who is allowed to access a vital record. Here allow me to refresh your memory...

State law prohibits the release of a birth certificate except to a person seeking his or her own certificate and the person's spouse, parent and legal guardian.

Which category would Jerome Corsi, Philip Berg or any of the others fall into?

Remember how everyone got so upset when officials in Ohio rummaged through Joe the Plumber's records? Unless you can point to 'a running for President' exception in the HI vital records act, Obama is entitled to the same legal protections as anyone else.

369 What facts can we agree on about the Sarah tape?

My guess is the only thing we'll agree on is the quality is shitty.

370

The COLB doesn't certify the place of birth. Obama's COLB isn't posted intact, AND it was never "Accepted" (like others from the same time were) , only "Received". IOW, Hawaii can't vouch for the accuracy of the info as if some proof had been given. This document only says that one (count 'em, one) person claimed this.

The Kenya birth cert has hospital name, witness signatures, and official seal. Tell me why you write that off.

371 "Swahili Hawaii talk"

Awesome band name.  Debut title track: "Swahilaii".

372 The Kenya birth cert has hospital name, witness signatures, and official seal. Tell me why you write that off.

Mainly because I've never seen such a thing.  It's not in any of the filings from Berg, Keyes or any of the rest.

As for the COLB, if you go to the Hawaii Dept. of Health website and follow their document request links for a birth certificate it shows what you will get is a COLB. Why exactly does the state bother issuing them if they are as useless as you say?

373 Anyway, I had my fill of teh crazy to last until the next time so idiot with a mic starts going off on this shit again. Then we can start this all over again.

Good night anyone who is still here.

374

Yes, the cert is Obama's private business. But he can't be president unless he qualifies. His name was printed on NJ and CT ballots illegally unless he showed his original cert to those SOS's. And he didn't. Why should NJ and CT votes (at least) count when they were illegal?

Obama could have allowed the Kenya birth records to be revealed. The registrar confirmed that they exist and are on file at Coast Provincial Hospital in Mombasa. Why do you dismiss that?

375 justincase, your energy is admirable.  If you were working on a flat tax instead I would have already sent you a check and subscribed to your newsletter.

376

#349 Cerrtificate of Live Birth is the long form. It has witness signatures, hospital name, footprints, etc.and is standard for babies born in Hawaii.  

Certification of Live Birth is short form. It is for people who register a birth late, register an out-of-state birth, or amend a certificate. Hawaii law allows Hawaii residents who give birth in or adopt from a foreign country to register the birth in Hawaii and thus get a Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth. One person's claim is all it takes to register such a birth, even though a person's own claim about him/herself is not enough proof for a state to certify the accuracy of the claim.

Obama posted a Certification of Live Birth, which is not standard for children born in Hawaii. The certificate number was blacked out, which legally nullifies the document. The border was from 2007 and the seal was from 2008 - indicating foul play. The document itself doesn't say it was accepted or filed, but simply "received by registrar". The State of Hawaii does not vouch for the accuracy of this claim. It has, however, stated that it has a long-form birth certificate on file. The Hawaii long-form birth certificate has a place to mark whether the birth was in Hawaii or not, so having the certificate says nothing about the place of birth.

Only the Certificate of Live Birth itself can answer questions about where a birth took place. The State of Hawaii has issued warnings about potential inaccuracy and fraud on amended certifications of live birth because so little evidence is required.

377 Obama could have allowed the Kenya birth records to be revealed. The registrar confirmed that they exist and are on file at Coast Provincial Hospital in Mombasa. Why do you dismiss that?

Have you ever seen this supposed Kenyan birth certificate?

You're repeated references to it is not evidence of its existence.

378 Frack
 
You're Your repeated references to it is not evidence of its existence.

379

Sorry. My bad. Berg wasn't going to publish it until it had been presented to a judge, but no judge is willing to even look at the facts. So at this point it is only a claimed piece of evidence. But a piece of evidence that Raila Odinga at least believes exists as well, or he wouldn't have sealed the records, arrested Corsi, and forbidden Obama's family from speaking publicly until after the election. It's a piece of evidence that officials from the hospital said exists, according to a sworn affidavit.

Who do you say is supposed to enforce the Constitutional requirements for president? Or do you say it even matters? What do you think of the fact that a socialist from Nicaragua made it onto NJ's presidential ballot? Does it scare you at all that there weren't even 2 conservative justices who would say it  matters that NJ's and CT's ballots were illegal or that we, the people, have any vested interest in the law being followed when the US Constitution is on the line?

380 Also, quite a few electors DID file suits asking for proof of eligibility. The judges said it was none of their business (they had no standing). You okay with that?

381 Yeah, if Berg had it he'd have put it on his website in 10 seconds and he would have put it in his filing so to force a court to take the case. If he's sitting on it, he's complicit in the greatest cover up in history.He doesn't have anything.

As for somebody saying, someone told them there are records...that's call hearsay and while is fun on the internet, it's of no legal or evidenciary value.

You keep saying the Kenyan records are sealed. First, there's no proof there are records of any sort and you said the Hawaiian records were sealed when they aren't (at least no more than any vital records are), so I'm not sure what you even mean by that.

I've gone through it several times who I think has standing (electors, members of Congress, secretaries of state or other officials charged with preparing ballots). I know you are saying that some SoSs didn't do what you want them to do but they were satisfied of Obama's eligibility. Absent some statutory requirement that they collect birth certificates from each candidate, they satisfied their obligations as they saw them. Just because you don't like the outcome of the NJ and CT challenges doesn't mean they didn't follow the law. They just didn't do what Berg and his client in CT (Warnowski or something, right?) wanted. The two are not the same. Sorry.


Also, quite a few electors DID file suits asking for proof of eligibility.

Who? I'd love to see a link to that.

382

Also, Dick Cheney never publicly asked whether there were any objections to the electoral vote. At the point he was supposed to, Nancy Pelosi led 2 standing ovations - supposedly spontaneous ecstasy (I think Ace might have had a post on that, or maybe it was Allah) but they just happened to come up when one of the Congressmen was waving his arms.

I haven't heard what that Congressman says he was trying to do, but it wouldn't have mattered anyway because objections were supposedly required to be submitted in writing before any question was asked, before any electoral votes were cast and there was anything but potential trouble to object to. Whether the Congressmen were told that ahead of time is dependent on the same people who shut all Republicans out of the meetings to reconcile House and Senate versions of the spendulus and forced a vote on the spendulus less than 12 hours after it was printed so Obama could sit on it for 3 days before signing it.

My brother and a bunch of others in my hometown are trying to overturn in court a bond issue that passed after the school board violated open meetings laws. Those laws exist for a reason. Without them there is not due process.

You're claiming that due process was followed, but if Congressmen waited for the proper time to object and were only told after the fact that they had to complain pre-emptively in writing, then due process was not followed.

And judicially, you need to read or hear Leo Donofrio tell about Judge Sabatino's and SCOTUS stay clerk, Danny Bickel's obstruction of justice - which he filed official charges about. Little rules like filing the cases properly, consistently violated. Without them, there is no due process.

All 3 protections of due process that you mentioned were violated. Lawlessness. That's what this is about.

383

Drew, you said, "I know you are saying that some SoSs didn't do what you want them to do"

No, what their own laws require them to do. That's a huge difference.

384 Gotta take my daughter to the dr. I'll fetch a link when I get back. Dang slow computer.

385 And judicially, you need to read or hear Leo Donofrio

I read his filings (and he's the guy who is representing Wrotnowsk, not Berg as I said earlier) and it's a joke. How's that whole Chester A. Arthur was eligible thing coming along

386 # 355  DaveAAA. The Constitution doesn't require a security clearance.

Posted by: justincase at February 28, 2009 01:37 AM (DzSTc)

So why did you ask how he could be elected without one?

# 358  DaveAAA. Maya Soetoro was born in Indonesia and has a Hawaii COLB. So what does a Hawaii COLB prove, even if it is authentic?

Posted by: justincase at February 28, 2009 01:42 AM (DzSTc)

Does it say she was born in Hawaii?  I'd be quite surprised if so because that would be a violation of Hawaii law.

# 365  Why is it bullshit when he (the registrar in Kenya) says it but not when she (Lingle) says it?

Posted by: justincase at February 28, 2009 02:02 AM (DzSTc)

Because we don't have any evidence that the Kenyan registrar did, in fact, say that beyond this unverified statement by someone else.  By the way, do you understand the difference between  "This document exists but we can't show it to you" and "The existence of this document is Top Secret"?

# 370 The COLB doesn't certify the place of birth.

Posted by: justincase at February 28, 2009 02:12 AM (DzSTc)

So I guess there's no way to convince you of the simple fact that the COLB presented is a valid birth certificate, even though the US government accepts it as one.

# 376  Obama posted a Certification of Live Birth, which is not standard for children born in Hawaii.

Posted by: justincase at February 28, 2009 04:32 AM (DzSTc)

In fact, that's what Hawaii normally gives out when you ask them for any birth certificate.

# 379   But a piece of evidence that Raila Odinga at least believes exists as well, or he wouldn't have sealed the records, arrested Corsi, and forbidden Obama's family from speaking publicly until after the election.  

Posted by: justincase at February 28, 2009 10:47 AM (zcxEs)

Or the government of Kenya didn't want their country and government mixed up in a US election.  The risks to Kenya from taking sides are far greater than any rewards.  Do you know what reason did the Kenyan government give for these alleged actions?

387

I know what hospital I was born in. I bet every single person here knows what hospital they were born in (if they were born in a hospital... if not, I bet they know what house, shack, shed, or van they were born in).

Nobody knows what hospital Barack Obama was born in, not even Barack. They've got it narrowed down to 2 hospitals in Hawaii. That's a neat trick, being born in 2 separate hospitals. Only the Messiah himself could pull off a trick like that.

I hear slurping.

388

Steve Marquis, who filed several lawsuits in WA, issued a press release saying that 24 electors were going to file suit the following Monday. Apparently that never happened. At least I can’t find any record of it. My apologies for having said that it did.

 

 But Lightfoot v Bowen is a case where a suit was filed by Alan Keyes and another presidential candidate, requiring the CA electors to verify Obama’s eligibility before their votes could be certified. That case is buried at SCOTUS right now. Government efficiency on display.

 

Drew, presenting a nullified (altered) COLB is even worse evidence in a court of law than hearsay, but it is the only evidence Obama has ever offered and the world accepts it – except us “gullible” Birthers.

 

The NJ and CT Secretaries of State admitted to Donofrio and Wrotnowski that they had not seen Obama’s legally valid birth certificate. Hawaii officials confirmed that the vault copy had never been accessed.

 

 

389

This is copied from www.marchreport.com :

The issue of what kind of birth certificate constitutes proof of citizenship is the most asked question in my mail box. Philip J. Berg's Assistant, Lisa, has done the research and provides us with this clarification:

"Once you are born, the hospital transmits the information to the Health Department, a birth certificate is created; If you are born abroad, you must take the original foreign birth certificate to Department of Health in the State which your birth is being registered, the original foreign birth certificate is placed and stored and the State Department of Health and a Certification of Live Birth is created. If you are born at home, then you must register that birth with the medical records (even births at home, a doctor must check the woman and child, then a birth certificate is issued by the doctor, the mother must register the doctors birth certificate of the child with the Department of Health).

"I spoke with the Director of Records in Hawaii, he explained to both (name withheld for privacy) and myself (we were on a three way) the above procedures. So yes, everyone in the United States and other countries (unless you were born in a field and never sought medical care) has a vault version of a birth certificate.

"On another note, in 1961 the Hawaii birth certificates are black and type written, this is true. In 2001, the Hawaii Department of Health changed formats and now offer a short version and a long version. The short version, if the birth occurred in a Hospital in Hawaii is called a "Certificate of Live Birth" not a Certification of Live Birth (COLB that Obama is using, fake or not) so there are differences in the wording of the document which folks are not aware of, unless they asked. A Certification of Live birth is nothing more than stating, not proving you were born, it does not prove your citizenship status or anything else.

"Now, the Certification of Live Birth is issued for foreign births abroad, which are registered in the Hawaii Department of Health. But there is more: On the bottom left of a Certificate of live birth is the words "recorded" which is the date the hospital transmitted the information for the production of the birth certificate or the Certificate of Live Birth.

"However, on the bottom left of a Certification of Live Birth, again for births abroad, it states on the bottom left corner "accepted", as Obama's COLB, fake or not, does. The wording "accepted" means that is the date the Department of Health in Hawaii accepted the registration and the documentation. Dunham could not have registered Obama's birth in Hawaii without the original "vault" version of the foreign birth certificate, nor could she have gotten Obama out of Kenya."

390

#386 DaveAA I didn’t ask why he could be elected without a security clearance. My point was that every “lowly” private in the military is vetted better than their own Commander-in-Chief.

 

As to what Maya Soetoro’s Certification of Live Birth says, it sounds to me from what Berg’s assistant found out from the Hawaii Director of Records that a Certification of Live Birth would never include a Hawaii birthplace, unless it was an amended Certification of Live Birth. If anybody knows a different scenario for this, I’d appreciate hearing it.

 

You said, “Because we don't have any evidence that the Kenyan registrar did, in fact, say that beyond this unverified statement by someone else.”

 

If a sworn affidavit is an “unverified statement by someone else”, then why the heck would you trust a Certification of Live Birth, which is printed up for anybody who makes a claim about him/herself? It’s simply repeating what somebody else says. Yet this is the great all-conclusive evidence that Obama is a natural-born citizen and I’m an idiot for not buying it?

 

You said, “So I guess there's no way to convince you of the simple fact that the COLB presented is a valid birth certificate, even though the US government accepts it as one.”

 

It isn’t a valid birth CERTIFICATE. It is a valid certification that a person has, in fact, been born – if it’s not altered. And where are you getting that the US government would accept a Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth as valid proof of anything except the fact that a person has been born?

 

You said, “In fact, that's what Hawaii normally gives out when you ask them for any birth certificate.”

 

According to the Director of Records in Hawaii (according to Berg’s assistant), you can ask for either  the long-form (birth certificate) or the short from (Certificate of Live Birth) if you were born in Hawaii. If you weren’t born in Hawaii your only option is the Certification of Live Birth. Where are you seeing that a Certification is given to everybody? If I understand correctly, the  only visible difference between the Certification and the Certificate is the title at the top of the document and the notation of “Accepted” (for a Certification) or “Received” (for a Certificate) in the lower  left-hand corner.

 

I’d like to look at what Obama posted again. There are actually 2 different versions posted between the  sites that had it (obama’s website, Daily Kos, FactCheck, and Fight the Smears). Evidence that somebody tampered with it even since it was first posted.

 

I don’t know why Kenya forbade official records verification and interviews of Obama’s family, any more than I know why their military arrested Jerome Corsi.

391

Drew, I invite you again to give me your most convincing arguments for why the US Constitution is a joke, so I can pass it on to our men in harm’s way defending this “joke”.

392 Come on justincase, Drew's claiming to be a conservative and is using fucking Slate as a reliable source. He'll be spouting shit from Mother Jones and Rolling Stone by next year, when he's been fully assimilated into the Dem collective.

393

LOL, angryoldfatman. All the “Birthers” want is valid, original source documentation on a Constitutional issue of fact.

 

Four years ago I would never have dreamed that asking for such a thing would make me a gullible moron in the eyes of the “credible” conservatives. I don’t understand it, and I’m ready to drink whatever you had last night. lol

394 #386 DaveAA I didn’t ask why he could be elected without a security clearance. My point was that every “lowly” private in the military is vetted better than their own Commander-in-Chief.

Again, so what?  He has shown the same document any Hawaiian born person applying to join the US Army must show.

As to what Maya Soetoro’s Certification of Live Birth says, it sounds to me from what Berg’s assistant found out from the Hawaii Director of Records that a Certification of Live Birth would never include a Hawaii birthplace, unless it was an amended Certification of Live Birth.

Funny, because the law itself says they won't change place of birth and the document shown by Obama is the one Hawaii gives out when you ask for a copy of your Birth Certificate.

If a sworn affidavit is an “unverified statement by someone else”

By someone in Kenya who need never be brought to justice if he's committed perjury.  It's a second hand, hearsay account of something he says he heard. The COLB is a primary document.  It's been examined and found to be genuine. Forging that document would be a serious crime, yet Hawaii officials who have seen the vault copy have not denouced it as a forgery.

(according to Berg’s assistant)

So your going to trust the word over the assistant to a 9/11 Truther over the State of Hawaii?  Fine for you, but why should we?

# 393  LOL, angryoldfatman. All the “Birthers” want is valid, original source documentation on a Constitutional issue of fact.

Baloney.  You have it.  You just want Obama to be gone and have jumped on a True Believer bandwagon.

395 Posted by: justincase at February 28, 2009 03:51 PM (zcxEs)

And now you're just being an ass. When did I say the constitution was a joke? I'm not the one substituting my personal preferences for the mechanism established in that very document.

396 Posted by: angryoldfatman at February 28, 2009 04:05 PM (ZtI4m)

And you guys are in bed with 9/11 Truthers. I'll take my chance with an article that includes actual links to source material over nutjob truthers any day. Apparently, you've made other choices.

FTR...that Slate article was written by David Weigel who is a liberterian, not a liberal. And if all Slate stories are forbiden, please don't go around quoting Mickey Kaus when he goes of an amnesty legislation.

But agian, you keep following in the footsteps of the Truthers.

397 Not that it matters what the vault copy says.  Apparently, there's some anti-government activist in Kenya who's willing to embarrass the Kenyan government by revealing "top secrets", i.e. street rumours, about a man with family ties to the ruling party.  Just because he has no proof to back his claims is apparently no reason to doubt him.

If you don't believe that, you must not believe in the Constitution.  Either that, or you have a functioning brain.

398

Dave, you’re not getting the difference between “birth certificate”, “Certificate of Live Birth”, and “Certification of Live Birth”. You tell me the difference between them and the source for your information. I’ve already posted what the Hawaiian official has said.

 

Please also tell me how you know what military folks check into regarding recruits. And how you know what a Hawaiian person gets when they order their birth certificate. The birth certificate is the vault copy, complete with doctor’s signature, footprints, etc. That is never sent out. A certified copy of a birth certificate that is sent out would not become a “CertifiCATION of Live Birth”. A short-form Certificate of Live Birth is an abbreviated form of what is on the vault certificate, but it is called a CertifiCATE of Live Birth, not a “CertificATION of Live Birth”.

 

What Obama posted is a CertifiCATION. That is the form expressly for foreign-born children of Hawaii residents. A CertifiCATION of Live Birth doesn’t register children born in Hawaii. So a CertifiCATION could never truthfully report a Hawaiian birth, as I understand it. But I invite you to give me an instance in which a Hawaiian-born child would get a CertifiCATION rather than a CertifiCATE of Live Birth.

 

Since Obama’s DOES report a Hawaiian birth, we’ve got a problem. Or rather, Obama does, if Hawaii won’t change a place of birth on a Certification of Live Birth. That Hawaii location could not have been put there by Hawaii officials. So who did put it there? We know the document was tampered with because it has a 2007 border and 2008 seal – a mismatch designed by Hawaii to reveal tampering. We also know the document was tampered with because there are 2 different versions of supposedly the same document. Obama’s website, FactCheck, Daily Kos, and Fight the Smears didn’t post the same document – yet they all claim it is the same, untampered document. Somebody is flat-out lying because the posted documents aren’t identical. Who did that and why?

 

399

Drew, why does it not matter whether Obama was born in America, like the Constitution requires of a Commander-in-Chief? I don't care what mechanism is used to find out if he's eligible, but it sure as Hell better not rely solely on a nullified document (identifying cert # blacked out) that Hawaii used to register the foreign birth of a Hawaii resident's child, posted in 2 different versions on a few partisan websites.

That's kangaroo documentation. I'd expect better from a crook like Blago. Why would you ever call it a joke when a Constitution-loving citizen demands documentation that actually proves where Obama was born? Our military folks lay too much on the line to have some jackass CIC playing peekaboo or "chicken" over his qualifying documents.

You may call it a joke, but I'm not laughing. Not when our finest men are dying for that documment Obama is using for toilet paper.ent Obama uses for toilet paper.

400 Drew, why does it not matter whether Obama was born in America, like the Constitution requires of a Commander-in-Chief?

It does matter.

Here's the thing you and others who agree with you don't accept...the rest of accept that he was born in the United States. We accept the document he produced. We accept that the constitutional mechanisms for determining his eligibility have functioned as intended.

We don't buy crazy and unsported allegations of a Kenyan birth certificate. We don't accept idiotic theories of law that hold that a person is inelegble to be President unless both their parents were US citizens.

Again, the constitution matters a great deal. What doesn't matter one bit are idiotic conspiracy theories built on fantastic tales of unverifiable claims.

401 I've said his before, and I'll say it again. The burden of proof is not on Barack Obama to prove he is a citizen. The burden is on the conspiracy theorists to prove he isn't. If the conspiracy theorists aren't able or willing to do that, could they please stop wasting our time?

402 398 

I’ve already posted what the Hawaiian official has said.

No, you posted what the assistant to a Truther claimed he said.  You remember Truthers don't you?  People like Berg who make a living by spreading infamous, malicious, and pernicious lies?

As for the rest, I've heard from people who've done it. Now perhaps they're mistaken, though I don't think they are.  The COLB shown certainly meets the requirements for a passport according to the State Department.  You're rebuttal to that is an unverified claim, not even a sworn statement, from known liars.

Some of your other claims about the form are incorrect.  The number, for instance, was blanked out on the Obama web site, but electrionically, not  physically,.  The actual form, as shown on FactCheck, is not blanked out anfd they did, infact, show the number.  As I pointed out, uttering a forged document is a criminal offence.  One wonders why the Republican Administration of Hawaii, or even just ordinary people workng for the State, who have seen the original  would not have filed charges.

403

Jack Bauer's Evil Brother, how the heck can anybody but Obama prove a negative when Obama is the only person who can disclose the definitive document?

Would it be enough to show that what he posted was document fraud? What more can any of us do without "standing" to look at the only conclusive evidence there is?

404

403    Would it be enough to show that what he posted was document fraud?

Good luck with that.  The Photoshop claims  were conclusively debunked when the physical document was examined.   I see you still haven't wrapped your head around the fact that Hawaii is satisfied enough with this document being published that they have not laid forgery or fraud charges.

405

Drew,

“We accept the document he produced.”

 

Why?

 

Jay McKinnon, the Obama supporter who openly confesses that the DKos image he posted is a forgery (though not legally considered forgery because he never intended to deceive), said this in an interview at http://www.dailykos.com/story

/2008/7/5/15947/95667/125/547039  :

“ Generally speaking, they (birth certificates) are extremely insecure documents and poor forms of identification. They are very susceptible to counterfeiting and provide wonderful information for identify thieves. This is an opinion shared by US Senate, the House of Representatives, the White House, the US State Department and the Department of Homeland Security. For this reason the Real ID Act was signed into law on May 11 2005, and birth certificates will no longer be acceptable documents for entering the US (as of June 1, 2009).

…I do not believe the US State Department accepts JPEGs of birth certificates for any purpose.”

 

 

Yet the whole world seems to be trusting a JPEG of a CERTIFICATION that couldn’t even allow a person into the US to prove eligibility to be the PRESIDENT OF THE US.

 

The DKos image was the first image onto the web. Most thought it was authentic. Now the forger has admitted it was tampered with. Why call the people who turned out right the loons?

 

You need to look at http://www.freerepublic.com/

focus/f-bloggers/2136816/posts and see the images compared with genuine COLB’s, and compare the supposed photos that FactCheck took compared with the supposed scans. On the scans, even with edge detection, you can’t see the seal,  registrar’s stamp, or the bottom fold from the front. But on the photos of supposedly the same document you can see both with the naked eye from the front. There is no way those are the same document. There’s other stuff too but the kicker is that the seal in the photos is a 2008 seal, which is a different size than in 2007, and the border is a 2007 border (shortly after 9-11 Hawaii instituted different computer-generated borders every year as an added security).

406

Dave aaa,

Go on the freerepublic site above and read it. Or if you don't want to take the time, look at FactCheck's scan and photos and tell me how the heck they can be the same document.

407

Also, Dave aaa, what are you talking about with the document being physically examined? Hawaiian officials have never commented on the document he posted. They can’t. All they have said is that there is a long-form birth certificate. And it’s not their job to pursue document fraud anyway. That’s the job of the state AG, I would think. The only people who have physically seen this alleged COLB are some anonymous people at the Chicago office for Factcheck.org.

408 Seeing as the main "expert"  "Ron Polarik PhD." seems  to be a fraud, those claims of a forged COLB still don't add up.

http://tinyurl.com/5s8b4f

Besides, why does it matter if that COLB isn't a real birth certificate if, as you claim, that COLB is meaningless at best?  Why wouldn't Obama have had a proper certificate forged, if that COLB is not one. 

As for thre scan linked to on FactCheck and teh photos of the original, they look close enough to me considering they'er from different sites and taken with differnt cameras underr differnt lighting conditions.

409 407    And it’s not their job to pursue document fraud anyway. That’s the job of the state AG

So seeing evidence of serious crimes, no one from Hawaii public records thought to call the appropriate law enforcement agency.   Riiiiiiiiight.

410

You know, Dave, I don’t know what to believe about what a Certification of Live Birth is used for, since everybody I hear from says something different. That’s one reason why we need to have an official investigation instead of a bunch of hearsay. I can try to do due diligence, but the truth of the matter is all my sources could be lying to me – as could yours. That’s why – as you’ve said – it’s important to have somebody making statements who could be prosecuted for obstructing justice.

 

It ain’t gonna happen here in the USA though – not in my lifetime. Some character in Kenya is just as likely to be investigated and prosecuted by the US government as any shady character in Chicago or Washington, D.C.  I’ve seen so much prosecutorial misconduct, bribery, pooh-poohing of criminal behavior by elected and appointed officials… I honestly don’t believe we’ve got a soul in our government who is even capable of caring about doing the right thing. CSI doesn’t exist, not here in the USA in my lifetime.

 

That’s also why this bugs the crap out of me. Why are amateurs trying to figure out whether a hugely compressed JPG file posted on partisan sites proves presidential eligibility? Why aren’t our Secretaries of State doing their job? Why can’t we MAKE them do their job? Dang it, I am so frustrated with the neutering of the power of the people. We’re a bunch of whimpering, impotent boobs. But as long as we get free healthcare, who cares if we’re slavering idiots?

 

I haven’t looked at your tinyurl site but unless what he posted is inaccurate I don’t care who he is. The points he made are valid. If the seal, fold lines, and registrar’s stamp are visible to the naked eye in the photos – complete with protruding bumps on the front side - but won’t even show up with edge detection on the supposed scan of the same document, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that something is screwy. Which reveals how piss-poor our system of accountability is all the more.

411 Nobody from Hawaii public records is even checking it out, as far as anybody knows. They seem to think anybody who questions The One is a loon. Sort of like here.

412

Politifact quotes Okubo as saying in conclusion:  "I don't know that it's possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents."

This after they claim Okubo said that Obama's COLB that Politifact e-mailed to them is a valid Hawaii record. Dude. If they can't say what the image on the site represents, it means they are NOT vouching for its authenticity. It means they have never even checked to see if it matches their records.

And you wonder why I'm doubting the process... 

Later HI officials told us the whopping discovery that Obama has a long-form birth certificate. Duh. That just means there's no reason for Obama to not end the speculation once and for all. Why won't he, if he was willing to post what he called his "birth certificate" online for the whole world to see?

413

The tinyurl site you gave, Dave, is totally ignoring that Polarik is comparing and contrasting Obama’s scan with other scans with the variables such as compression rates the same.

 

They lost me when they started out saying that Politifact had verified the authenticity of Obama’s posted COLB, when I just showed you that Politifact quoted Okubo as saying it’s not possible for them to say what Obama’s posted image represents.

 

The holes in this reporting are big enough to fit the national deficit through.

414

Politifact’s little lecture about relying on source documents is too, too rich. That’s all we’re asking Obama and the rest of the world to do – take a look at the source document. And they call us crazy. Sheesh.

 

I'm talking to myself. I give up. Think what you want.

415 That's because you are a loon.  You really are.

416 Some character in Kenya is just as likely to be investigated and prosecuted by the US government as any shady character in Chicago or Washington, D.C.  

Are you serious?  

No really - are you?
 
You do know that US courts and law enforcement have no jurisdiction in foreign countries, right?  You do know Kenya is a foreign country, right?

Why aren’t our Secretaries of State doing their job?

Based on what you've said, forty-eight of fifty states did exactly that.  They followed the procedures of their states which are, in effect, to get sworn statements from the candidates or their representatives that say they are qualified.  It's a system that's work well enough for over two hundred years and fifty-four prudential elections, and it's worked here.  

The onus is on you Birthers to show that Obama lied, not for him to show he did not.  So far, we have massive FAIL on your part.

As for New Jersey and Connecticut, The two you claim require birth certificates and who, you claim, did not see one for Obama, you may have a point.  By all means then, void Boatman’s votes and give those states to McCain. That would give McCain 195 elector votes to Osama’s 343.  As 270 EC votes ware needed to win, that kind of looks as if Obama get elected anyway.

Nobody from Hawaii public records is even checking it out,

If they aren't looking into it, it's because there's nothing there.  They're aware of the controversy, they know what's on the vault copy, and they know that Obama is claiming that the document he has says he was born in Hawaii.  If he were not, having a document that claims to be a COLB that says otherwise would mean it's an obvious forgery and Obama is committing a serious fraud,  

 It isn't as if Obama would forge a COLB that has the same information as the real one.  That would be pointless and silly.

They seem to think anybody who questions The One is a loon. Sort of like here.

So in spite of a history of opposing Obama and everything he stands for, people on this site must really support him becayse we find this particualr line of questioning specious.  Bull.

The tinyurl site you gave, Dave, is totally ignoring

If Bad Science hasn't considered it, it's because it doesn’t matter.  Unlike your claimed expert, these guys are who they say they are.

Politifact quotes Okubo as saying in conclusion:  "I don't know that it's possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents."

And this is the kind of thing that makes us doubt your sanity or honesty.  You ignore everything else he said that fairly strongly rebuts your case and add this last which, in context, means nothing, but out of context sounds impressive.

417

The US doesn't prosecute in the US any more than they do in Kenya.

I called my SOS office. Nebraska requires nothing of presidential candidates because the parties (supposedly)certify that their candidate is eligible. That's why Berg filed suit. He contributed to the dem party and deserves an eligible candidate. He's charging the dem party with signing to a lie - saying they've checked out eligibility when NOBODY has seen Obama's even ALLEGED COLB except a few people from the Chicago FactCheck office.

SCOTUS response? It's none of your business if Howard Dean lies on an official document that affects 50 states and undermines our whole method of  ensuring the Constitution is followed.

Let me ask you this: If Bin Laden stepped forward with a Hawaii COLB and was willing to sign a paper saying he's eligible to run for President, and nobody in an official capacity was willing to check official documents to prove otherwise, how would he ever be disqualified in our system? Suppose in the mid-80's he established an American identity under a social security number that was supposedly issued out of Connecticut in the mid-seventies while he was actually living somewhere else under a different name - a name under which he received foreign student aid from the State of CA in the early 80's as an adult. Once that SS# is established as his identity and he signs a paper saying he's an American citizen, nobody else ever checks out any documentation because he won't release the records. No conspiracy involved, except the original fraudulent SS#. After that, nobody is authorized or required to check out squat. Their hands are tied.

How would our Constitutional system disqualify him? 

If a person (Bad Science) is who they say they are, they can never be wrong? Did you graduate from the Blago School of Logic?

Bad Science claims that what Polarik observed is static from the scanning process. But Polarik uses other scans under the same conditions as a control group to compare with. Bad Science doesn't use a control group. Which one is violating basic 8th grade science principles?

Bad Science says Politifact authenticated Obama's posted COLB, when in fact the linked Politifact site quotes Okubo  concluding that "I don't know that it's possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents." You don't have a problem with that?

I think "Bad Science" is the right name for a site like that.

418

Dave, you said, “So in spite of a history of opposing Obama and everything he stands for, people on this site must really support him becayse we find this particualr line of questioning specious.  Bull.”

 

What you don’t understand is that my gripe is not necessarily with Obama. A crook is a crook, does what a crook does. He can’t be other than what he is. BUT our system is supposed to catch a crook. And it doesn’t. It’s totally impotent against a crook who hides behind a fraudulent social security number and privacy laws.

 

If you don’t believe me on that, check out the footage of 9-11 again – the work of foreign terrorists who established an identity in America, many of whom were actually registered to vote.

 

It was right after 9-11, in late Sept of 2001, when Hawaii started changing their COLB borders every year – because they knew that a fraudulent birth record can give a person a free pass for the rest of his life. But what good is that security measure if nobody has the authority (or will use the authority) to check out cases where the border isn’t accurate for the year?

 

It’s sort of like the DOD throwing out the records of the Brooklyn-based AQ cell in early 2000 because of the Gorelick Wall.

 

Or it’s sort of like Jennifer Brunner, SOS of Ohio, checking voter registration records against DMV and SS records as required by the Help America Vote Act, but then not letting anybody else see the mismatches. SCOTUS response to the outcry about that? “None of your damned business if the law is followed.” (paraphrased) (Same SCOTUS response as to Berg charging the dem party with fraudulent certification and Donofrio and Wrotnowski charging the NJ and CT secretaries of state with printing illegal ballots.

 

How the Hell can total lawlessness on the part of elected officials be none of our business here in the US of A? I’d expect that from the Gulag.

 

And that’s why I don’t just let this go. This represents the total sell-out of what America stands for. The fact that it’s being done by conservatives is a bitter, bitter pill to take.

 

419

Jack Bauer's Evil Brother, how the heck can anybody but Obama prove a negative when Obama is the only person who can disclose the definitive document?

If you cant't put up, then shut up.

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