1 FYI, kinesiology is the fancy new name for "exercise science".

2 What a bunch of bull.  You shouldn't get a higher grade just because you "tried."  This ascribes to the same crap that teachers pull by grading based on "class participation."  If you can't demonstrate an understanding of the class material, you fail.  End of story.

3 This is a prime example of the generation of kids where everyone was a 'winner' and got a trophy. They are totally ill-equipped for reality.

4 Exactly, we're already past the point where we wonder how this will turn out. We're dipping our naughty bits into the creamy goodness that results in it because it's washing up to thigh level all around us in a flood of narcissism and entitlement.

5 I had a coach that told us that it wasn't that practice makes perfect, but that Perfect Practice makes Perfect.  Mr. Greeburg should realize that just putting the effort in isn't going to cut it.  Glad to see some professors are making students actually perform these days. 

6 Higher Ed as Special Olympics.

7 I just found out recently that teachers no longer use red pens to grade homework. It gives too much of a negative feeling - too traumatic.

8 And then they'll go out into the world, and they'll find out that "I tried to get to work on time" or "I tried to finish the blueprints to the clients' specifications" or "I tried to get all the paperwork together to win my case" just won't cut it. Behold the next generation of homeless bums begging for beer money under the overpass.

9 You see the same thing in the real world.  I've had some of my employees think that because they showed up for work and didn't bankrupt the company that they deserved an annual meirt pay increase.

10

FYI, kinesiology is the fancy new name for "exercise science".

Yeah, I had to look it up.  Sounds like a bullshit major taken mostly by college athletes who don't give a shit about getting an education and want the easiest major possible.

Not surprising that the other student quoted had the mostly bullshit major of English.  I can't imagine a chemistry or math major whining that they should get an "A" because they attended class and read the books even though they gave wrong answers on the tests.

11 Boy, you commenters just don't understand. The most important thing is that they don't get their feelings hurt. If they do they're liable to just give up all together. Now, excuse me while I go puke.

12 Do or do not. There is no try!

13
Perhaps someone should have explained to these children, regardless of age that is what they are, that if their best efforts result in a C grade perhaps their efforts would be better invested in some field in which they can excel.

Yeah, that would be judgmental, huh.

I'm thinking there's some fancy word that describes a refusal to accept the judgments of reality. I'll think of it....

14 If Mr. Greenwood needs major surgery someday let's see who he picks (if given a choice) between the surgeon who got an "A" or one that got a "C".

These students understand the difference between effort and results they just don't want to deal with the fact that they may not be good enough in the field they have chosen to pursue. 

Oh well, the government can always use a few more drones.

15 My daughters go to school with a whole mess of fuckwits who are damned good students the last week of every six weeks grading period. The first five weeks are spent in a state of "don'tgiveafuck" coma, and then it's a full week of "What can I do to get my grade up?"hyperactivity. Some of the teachers let them get away with playing this game figuring that the learning that accompanies one week of good effort is better than nothing, some of them don't. I had to let both of mine know pretty early into their teen years that we wouldn't be playing that game. Being able to go into the teacher's gradebook online and check their grades at any given time allows me to enforce it.

16

Not surprising that the other student quoted had the mostly bullshit major of English. 

Otherwise known as pre-law.

17 If I really try to fix the economy, that counts for a lot, right?

18 I sure hope this mentality is applied to the infrastructure stimulus that was just passed. Sure, the bridges won't stand, the roads will be covered in potholes, the sewer lines will burst, and the electric grid will fail, but man, those uneducated unemployed minorities will really give it their all. Lets make sure we create as many jobs as possible for them!

19 Somebody better explain to Mr. Greenwood that it's not just the motion of the ocean or how you row your boat that matters.  The size of the boat is always important, and people with big boats can succeed with much less effort than is required by little boat people like him.  Deal with it missy.

20 Ah... the good old days, when the concept of getting and "'A' for effort" was a joke.

Next thing you know, some Affirmative Action student with absolutely zero record of any significant accomplishment or success and who is a year and a half into their first full time job will get elected to be POTUS.

<pause>

...wait a minute... nevermind.

21

If you aren't good at a subject, regardless of how hard you tried, maybe there is something to learn from your failure.  Something like, "this will not be a good career path for you."

"Who cares if this new-hire Steve is bad at math?  He tries really hard, and he *wants* to do our payroll!  Let's see what his transcript looks like...oh!  He got an A in Accounting IV, so how bad can he really be?"

...and next thing you know, your company needs a bailout...

22

Yes, I'm Dr. Spades and I'll be your open-heart surgeon today.  I have no aptitude for surgery but I got an A for effort and I have lots of malpractice insurance.

23 We live in a country where one of the two political parties demands that it be judged by its good intentions, regardless of actual results. In a world where good intentions get you a C, why shouldn't you get a A for effort?

24

They could get jobs with the state and then give up the effort thing too.

25 Behold the next generation of homeless bums begging for beer money under the overpass.

Hobos to hunt....at least there's a silver lining to this black educational cloud.

26 FYI, kinesiology is the fancy new name for "exercise science".

Which, in turn, was the fancy new name for "gym teacher."

27

I'll repeat what I said on another site:

Many people didn’t want to punish their kids, but found that they really really still wanted to be able to control their kids. So they turned to heaping praise for everything and anything. Go to a playground in a nice area and watch the upper middle class moms praise the kids for “good sliding”.

Untended consequences, anyone? The kids expect praise for every little thing and think that something is very wrong when the don’t receive it.

28

Pendejo - just wait.  Someday, they will even start to "spread the smarts around," and bring your child's A down to a B, so that one of your mentioned fuckwits can get their D brought up to a C.

Everybody wins!  HOORAY!

29 Kinesiology, or Exercise Physiology, is the old name for what is now called "Human Biodynamics," and a few other silly names. I know this because I had a girlfriend (nice ass, but a rancid bitch) who majored in it. It used to be a serious topic, with lots of organic chemistry, and molecular biology. Judging by the example above, it might be the new "MassComm."

30 Who is the adult and who is the child? Who is the teacher and who is the student?

There's a lot of confusion on these points and there are two schools of thought. One of these schools now controls our economy and our foreign policy.

31 Yeah, I had to look it up.  Sounds like a bullshit major taken mostly by college athletes who don't give a shit about getting an education and want the easiest major possible.

Well..... I'll disagree here.  How the human body responds to exercise, and specifically how to maximize the positive responses while minimizing the negative, is fairly complicated.  We haven't fully figured out exactly what's going on to the point that you can hand Joe Public a simple formula that he can just use.  So you need trained professionals who can customize workouts to your needs based on observed results of trial and error.

That said, Greenwood is an idiot.  If I'm paying $60+/hour for a trainer (the going rate for a Level 1 trainer in the Chicago area), he damned well better be able to produce results.  "I /tried/ to determine the best workout routine for you." will result in a gym set on fire.

32 To borrow from that childhood development specialist, Homer Simpson, "I believe the children are our future, unless we stop them now!"

33

Everyone raise your hand if you want to fly in an airplane, drive a car or hit the button to launch a missile where the system in question was designed by an engineer who "tried hard" in the calculus equations for the designs?

Life is a bell curve, son.  Well, until we started paying everyone's mortgages and bad business decisions under the rubric of "trying."

That sound you hear are ALL the Founders doing warp speed revolutions in their graves.

34

I believe we are seeing the leading edge of the 'self esteem' movement tusnami coming out of secondary school. Teachers embraced 'child centered learning' which they view learning as a process, not a product. For example, they reject the idea of memorizing multiplication tables (drill and kill) in favor of allowing the student to create their own strategies for arriving at their own knowledge. Some of the more 'progressive' educators refuse to tell students what the right answer is for fear of focusing them too much on a single outcome (that would not be inclusionary). I remember reading an article written by a high school teacher who was expressly forbidden to give a student a bad grade for bad performance. He was instructed to lower the bar for students who could not accomplish set tasks - even if it meant that the student would be 'allowed' to create a macaroni mosaic of George Washington instead of a book report on him - that student could not be graded down. One wise blogger I read said something like 'Why doesn't the self esteem movement understand that self esteem results when one accomplishes something difficult. You can't paint students over with self esteem goodness, they must earn it for themselves'.

35 #28 They'll get a boot in the ass for their efforts.

36

“If you put in all the effort you have and get a C, what is the point?”

What's the point indeed?

How about:

1) your efforts should be redoubled

2) this class isn't for you

3) consider choosing a different field of study

and finally,

4) maybe you're just an idiot

 

37 if I .. attend class regularly that I should be able to achieve a grade of at least a B

This was the operating theory at my last job.
Those who warmed their seats, came in late, took long lunches to go shopping, and left early were rewarded.
One cunt took a week off to cure her hangover, during a deadline crunch. Another precious princess would submit inaccurate paperwork, and re-submit her last-minute revised version after deadline, requiring me to perform extensive re-work in a goddamn hurry.  
Fucking enabler that I am, stayed late and worked weekends, doing the job(s) others neglected to.
Guess. Who. Got. Cut. Out.
Surprise!
And now there is NO work to be found.
Suicide seems like an option. Beat the rush, y'know.

38

This guy reminds me of those people who expect a government bailout on the big house they mortgaged to the hilt expecting to make big bux, and they expect US to bail them out just because the market didn't go their way. The nerve! Never in a million years will.......wait, the Democrats in Congress want to do WHAT?

(Drinks heavily)

39

My wife is a high school teacher.  Right before the end of every grading period, she has her students write a self-evaluation.  Part of it includes what grade they think they deserve and why.  Every time, she gets students who write that they deserve an "A" because they did everything she asked them to do.  She finally reached the point where she now explains to them that "doing what she asks" is the minimum standard and, therefore, is a "C."  It is what you do beyond what is expected that earns the higher grades.

This whole thing is a reflection of how we have fucked kids up through the whole self-esteem nonsense where we give awards to everyone regardless of how poorly they performed.  Kids learn that it doesn't matter what you accomplish; everyone is the same.

40 being on a Div I varsity team should also count extra

41

Couldn't pass up this gem of a theory:

Professor Greenberger said that the sense of entitlement could be related to increased parental pressure, competition among peers and family members and a heightened sense of achievement anxiety.

Or Professor, they could just be a generation of self-centered assholes.

42

“What else is there really than the effort that you put in?”

If you have to ask the question . . .

. . . wait, can I manage this guy's finances? I promise, I'll try really hard.

43

Why, these kids sound nothing like the Teacher's Union that produced them.

Next thing you know, kids taking the class a 2nd time will be saying "I should get an A because I was here longer".

44 I have a sockpuppet of extraordinary magnitude! It has my gratitude!

45

Shortly after the Columbine shootings, I read a magazine article that basically said that the generation of students praised excessively for weak or absent performance had the potential to respond with intense narcissistic rage when facing the real world. Around the same time I read that when asked what their first job would be like, highschoolers described a corner office with $70K starting wages.

This might be another perfect storm - a legion of young voters willing to vote for Obama because he speaks earnestly (which is all the proof they need)- they can't conceive of basing their evaluation on his actual performance, just his empty promises.

46

This is beyond pathetic.  However, the cream of the crop will rise to the top everytime.  These affirmative action Obamabots will be easily taken advantage of, and smart people will always be in high demand.  Grades in school will cease being a tool to measure intelligence..  Going back to the dark ages, one affirmative action politician at a time.

 

Obama is a living lesson of whats gone wrong in this country. Very sad.  Thank god I'll die someday and won't have to see the decline of western civilization

47

Results only count when you have a particular intellectual destination in mind.

If you are happy going Nowhere, I don't suppose that when you get there and what you find there really matters.

All that matters is that you have pleasant ride.

 

 

48

 ...intense narcissistic rage...

This "disability" will, of course, be the subject of an entire week of Oprah shows starting Monday.  Check your local listings.

49 6 Higher Ed as Special Olympics.

Look up what college professors have to do with respect to disability accommodation.  About 1% of students now have to be given "extra time" on exams.

How the human body responds to exercise, and specifically how to maximize the positive responses while minimizing the negative, is fairly complicated.  We haven't fully figured out exactly what's going on to the point that you can hand Joe Public a simple formula that he can just use.  So you need trained professionals who can customize workouts to your needs based on observed results of trial and error.

Yeah.  But that's what makes it so easy.  Because the system is so complicated, specializing in it means memorizing a bunch of disjointed data.  Intellectually, this is quite an easy task, very low on the academic food chain.

50

 She finally reached the point where she now explains to them that "doing what she asks" is the minimum standard and, therefore, is a "C."  It is what you do beyond what is expected that earns the higher grades.

Well, that's fucking bullshit man.

If I know my shit, why do I have to put in 'extra'? And how could I? Why the hell would anyone do more then what is sufficient? This ain't no labor of love... the State Law says you have to be there until you're 16.

Sounds like she's grading on effort rather then results just with a steeper curve.

Why should I get an A? Uhhhmm.. don't you have test scores? Because I got one? See... 98% correct is an "A".

98% correct is not the minimum standard. You're letting these douchebags graduate on 68% with D's.

I allways said "an A" if anyone asked me that question. Why? Well duh, I want a fuckin A. If you're asking me, I'm gonna say you should give me what I want. That's why you're not suppose to let me grade myself, dipshit. I'm biased!

51

They should grade like Simon Cowell does on American Idol.

Sometimes - "You suck!" - is a good motivator to go find your real abilities.

52

Does anyone here have an original though. Here's another not so original idea: how about putting responsibility on teachers to actually teach? Teachers are also employees. What standard of effort and results are required by them?

What the hell is this? Is everyone here fallating a teacher's union member?

53 Let us suppose the only true and just requirement for an excellent grade is effort, regardless of result; at the very least results are a secondary consideration.

Does this not mean, therefore, that grades in school are merely the index of how hard one tries, and signify little else? Does this not mean that such a system is the very opposite of learning, because learning itself is not rewarded, but rather effort, regardless of outcomes or objective?

Why would anyone bother to attend such a school?

54

There's an irony somehwere that I am reading this while my students take their first midterm. It's a jr-sr level political science course, full of majors. When I told them I'm not providing a study guide, which I never do for this level of class, by their reaction you'd have thought I just said I looked forward to raping them individually. The horror of having to figure things out for themselves!

 

However, knowing my insect overlords in the department, if any of them get wind of this article, it'll be on the agenda next week in our department meeting. I'm sure something about how to properly motivate (read: coddle) them will follow.

 

I taught last year at a smaller regional public university, and was told going in I was to do as much as possible to promote the PS department, and get students to major/minor. The reasoning was simple... more majors/minors = more money for the daprtment. When I failed some students who self identified an interest in pursuing PS as a major/minor on a survey when they took their first test in an Intro course, it was me who had to defend the grades to the chair for turning them off. Not the students for doing bad. I later got a look at their exams, and compared them to mine. Crazy me for not asking questions like "what political party is George Bush in?" and making them think a bit.

55 Yeah cocksucker, and you should learn to proofread.

56 God these comments roll in fast. By "cocksucker" I meant me.

57

Well..... I'll disagree here.  How the human body responds to exercise, and specifically how to maximize the positive responses while minimizing the negative, is fairly complicated. 

However "complicated" it is, it doesn't strike me as four year degree complicated.  Biology?  OK.  Physiology?  Sure.  "Kinesiology"?  No. 

58 The teachers are now in charge of writing state and local performance standards for their own students, schools and districts. Poor, underperforming teachers can hide behind students with extraordinary grades (they get A's but they can't read or write). The teachers now point to parents as the problem - especially when parents review the curriculum and find fault with it. Oh, and teachers unions have also identified low wages, not enough control over the curriculum etc as the 'real' culprits to our failing education system. I am no fan of teacher's unions - they are too powerful and won't accept responsibility but they want more power. Because, you see, they believe they are educated...unlike the rest of us.......

59

I think I'll go to my thesis committee next year when everything is due and say "guys, I know I haven't really got jack shit done, but I was TRYING really hard."  

I'm sure they'll just love it.

Oh, and Jo, #7, I still know some teachers that grade with a red pen.  My quantitative econ teacher last semester made most of my homeworks and test look like he'd bled all over them.

But I did eventually learn how to set up a Hessian matrix.

60 by "their exams" in 54 I meant my insect overlords last year. I.E. the department chair had that as a multiple choice question. Don't get me wrong, I'll toss 1-2 softballs, but the whole test was like that.

61

David,

What the hell are you talking about?  The story in question is about students' expectations at the university level.  Read a little, it helps.

62

I guess I' ve just been a fool, wasting my time memorizing all that payroll stuff... "Gee, Ms English Major, I'm sorry your paycheck is wrong, but isn't it important that I made all that effort..?"

63 So teachers at the university have no responsibility to teach either?

64 "A" for ass wipe Affekt.
I tried to clean it.

65 The entitlement mentality here is frightening. What will a workforce or voting population full of people with such a mindset look like?

Oh yeah. I show up to my job everyday, on time, read my emails and attend the meetings. So I deserve my salary.

Oh - the fact that there are no sales, or that my project is late, or that the client hated the proposal? Shouldn't matter - I did all of the required work.

I can't help it if I'm just flat stupid. I tried, that's all that counts, right?

Gimme, gimme, gimmeeee...

66 Oh wait. Sorry. You're saying I should put in some effort. Good point.

67 Do or do not. There is no try!

Now, then Yoda, you know only the dark side believes in absolutes.

68 Kinesiology is not bullshit, but the AceCorps LLC comment spell checker doesn't know the word.  It doesn't knoww "doesn't" either.

Wait, is "doesn't" a word and I supposed to use a single ellipsis for asking questions about word use?

You'll have to forgive me.  I felt I tried hard in grammar and usage courses, but all I could ever attain was a C+.

69

only the dark side believes in absolutes.

Goddamnit. The absolutely irony of dividing the whole universe into 'light' and 'dark' sides, and then saying only 1 side believes in absolutes just gave me an aneurism.

70

Does this not mean, therefore, that grades in school are merely the index of how hard one tries, and signify little else?

No no no. 

Praise is completely independent of effort. Don't notice the effort, because otherwise you might give more praise to someone who tried harder and don't you see how that might make the other kids sad?

Feel the love. Share the love.

But, uh, no touching.

71 However "complicated" it is, it doesn't strike me as four year degree complicated.  Biology?  OK.  Physiology?  Sure.  "Kinesiology"?  No.

Kinesiology degrees will require a mid level university understanding of biology and physiology.  It's a real course of study.

Put it this way, and I know this fails the moron standards, but kinesiology makes Gender Studies majors look like kindergarten recess.

72 One of the issues I see with attempting to grade on effort is an effective measure of effort.  Butts in seats is way below minimum effort for a good grade.  Examining the course information is average effort.  Obviously a person who masters the materials is going to do well in a course.  How is a teacher supposed to know if a student delivered the effort somewhere between examining the course materials and mastering the materials?  Coursework and testing is rejected by the people in the linked article.  What else is there?  Assign a minder to each student and keep track of all time spent on each concept?  Hand the student a notebook to write down all hours spent on coursework, and then trust that?  It's madcap I tell you!

73 I wish I still had the email from a student last semester who asked me to up his grade from a D- to a C because he came to my office to talk about the exams (note: plural) that he failed. Not that he did that much better on the other exam or assignments. But he talked to me about it, so that was good enough in his mind.

74 So, Kinesiology Major (Gym Club membership salesman) might want to watch out for the "sales quota" thing.

75

Whats up with college professors, of all the liberal assholes in the world, asking for personal responsibility? How does that hash with their principles of social justice. Shouldn't I get an A because my parents were poor?

Is everyone here fellating an AAUP member?

76 Remember back the olden days when the (high school) teacher checked and graded the homework and that, along with test/quizes, made up your semester grade? Now, they just give kids 100% for turning in the homework assignments.  They don't care if all the answers are wrong. They don't even check.  You get 100% for showing up and handing in homework!   If you fail the tests it all balances out so the kid doesn't fail the class, I guess.

77 @75, I am an AAUP member. Albeit against my will. But I work and live in Michigan. comes with the territory.

78 I give all my female students an upgrade if they try on my hard.

79 I don't believe these students were thinking of themselves or peers when answering... they were espousing the compassionate mindset that has been beaten into them for people who are less fortunate.

"Oh, you poor thing. You've tried your best"

Exactly on point with the non-grades, trophies-for-all, etc...

80 That's all right doc. I am biased because here in Tennessee we get all the rejects that couldn't cut it in a northern university. Their best efforts just weren't good enough I guess.

81 Sarah Kinn, a junior English major at the University of Vermont, agreed, saying, “I feel that if I do all of the readings and attend class regularly that I should be able to achieve a grade of at least a B.”

Sarah also believes that she deserves to make $80,000 per year minimum straight out of college...you can make book on that.

82

But he talked to me about it, so that was good enough in his mind.

Doc, once in college I went to talk to a TA about my grade. I'd studied hard, thought I'd done well on the essay exam, and ended up with a C. Basically, I wanted to know if that was the correct grade and if so, what was I doing wrong? She took the test and immediately started trying to find ways to give me a couple more points here and there! I may be a moron, but I didn't stop her. Well, thanks, I wasn't expecting that, but I really want to know how to do better next time. I guess she was used to "talking" meaning "change my grade or I'll keep coming back."

83 Assign a minder to each student and keep track of all time spent on each concept?

JOBS, JOBS, JOBS!

The left tells you exactly what you need to know about their thinking.

84

@82... you went to the TA though. Her mindset may have been "crap did I grade this wrong. Please don't go to the prof and complain." Or it could be like my TA now... she's a Masters studuent studying community development in Africa, and TA's for my american municipal government class. So she's really at the same level as the students. But I'm not complaining about having her. As low man on the totem pole, whatever they give me, I take.

But what you expected from the TA is how I always treat my students when they come by: how can you do better, and/or what am I not explaining clearly enough in their mind. I basically want to know why they don't get it, but you can usually tell when it's "I didn't really study".

85 behold the herd on which we'll feed

86 You have no idea how entitled some snowflakes are -- both in Administration and in the student body. There are a number of "I didn't get in to this to teach, I just want to research" assholes on most faculties, as well.

I have a freshly-minted Ed D as acting Dean who insists that we not use red pens to grade our freshman comp essays, because students react negatively to red ink. She also believes in "hubs of understanding," because the word "meeting" is too "negatively charged."

She calls our students "clients" or "customers." It's not "education," it's "end product." If a prof gives a student a well-earned crappity grade, she's more likely to side with the student.

Frankly, I used to love my job. Now, I'm grinding away because we need the frigging money to keep up with the Big Zero's tax-raping. (Big ups to my fellow academics who voted for that idiot, and promoted him ad nauseum, as well.)

87

Anyone who thinks this shit is just going on in the useless majors, think again. It's been some years since most med schools went to pass/fail because so many of their affirmative action students had 'D' averages. In my state, the passing score of the Bar Exam was dramatically lowered for the same reason.

Hell, the way things are going, it's just a matter of time before we have a Handicapper General.

88

How could this happen?

Present!

89

Hubs of understanding? I'm so sorry, CrankyProf.

When my hubby comes home tonight complaining about having 3-4 meetings today, I'll explain that he'll feel better if he calls them hubs of understanding.

So when I don't ever post here again, you'll know why.

90 Mediocre is the new exceptional.

91 I use a red pen. And I correct all sorts of shit people don't learn these days -- like grammar.

Some of my students have asked me if there's anything else they can do to earn credit. I respond that all grades are final or that the only points available were listed on the syllabus and they never ask again.

But the fact that they ask means that every now and then it has worked in the past.

92 Did Lewis Carroll see this coming?  Remember the Caucus Race?  Everyone has won, and all must have prizes?  Welcome to Wonderland!  It used to be that one would have to become seriously drug-addled to come up with stuff like this.  Now it's reality.

93 To follow this new idea through, if a student makes a real hard effort, but misses all the questions, they still should get an A.  Then when they get a job, they should be paid by their EFFORT, even if everything they do is wrong?  If that is the case, I should be a trillionare by now.

94 Hubs of understanding... good God.  Well it already has a "negative charge" for me.

95 The real world is already accommodating this attitude.   I work in a place where just being on time and looking neat mean you can keep your job and get raises.  And it is not a union job. 

96 Little OT: But still interesting. Remember the whole dot-comm bubble, Enron scandal crap in the late 90s? Guess who was being hired for those high finance jobs during that time. The English majors, humanities and the like. Read an article on the front door of the Education dean of the local college. It seems that since they're weren't enough actual business students graduating they took these idjidts because they had "critical thinking skills."

Now when I went to UW in Seattle, the Business program was invite only. Transfers and minorities had preference. However any of the other programs (English, humanities etc.) were full open enrollment.

Heh I might even still have the old email from the College Prez saying they were going to just break the law after the no-AA law passed the electorate.

97 So according to these dillweeds, you should get grade perks just for attending class & reading the assigned chapters, etc. In other words, for doing the work the teacher expects *aside* from the tested subject matter. Johnny read his chapters and came to class, but doesn't have a superior understanding to the material....but hey, let's give him an atta boy anyway. If that kid were in a profession I needed services from, I'd want to stay the hell away. Now, tell me how does one go about verifying a student's "efforts" in a particular class? There is no standard measure. It would all be left to interpretation.

But yes, it does show a class of young people who have been raised with an entitlement mindset. After years of "feel good/self-esteem" crap that schools would rather focus on than, say, mathmatics or the sciences, it comes as no surprise. For that generation, EVERYONE makes the team.

98 I just took a Comparative Psych test today, I studied plenty, I did all the work, I went to class everyday and I THOUGHT about everything and I TALKED to other people about the material, most importantly I UNDERSTOOD. I think I made a B, and even though I put a lot of effort into it, I will be very happy with a B, because that B means something, my professor told us that only one sophomore has ever passed his class, and by the end of the semester, he won't be able to make that speech again. On the other hand, I made an A in my Intro to Psych course last semester, and could not care less, because all I did was make an effort, I didn't have to really understand it, just read everything.

99 I'm not too worried about this.  When these kids hit the job market it will take all of a week to flush out twenty years of "A for effort".

100

I fear these children are our future.

These children are our here and now. Coddled, expecting a certain outcome without regard to effort. That's not fair! Unable to be objective or to think critically when the answer isn't in sync with their wants. Fertile ground for ideologues.

101 I'd like to put forward the suggestion that this is actually worse than anyone here is saying. Let me explain:

For a long time, my parents thought that I was bad at math. I brought home Cs every quarter in every math course, which was poor for an otherwise A and B student.
However, I was getting 80s and 90s on every test. I knew the material. I didn't skip class. Why was my grade low? Because I didn't participate enough. I didn't do the homework. I didn't organize my binder the way the teacher wanted (ye, this had an effect on my MATH grade). Put quite simply, they wanted me to put more effort in. But I didn't NEED to. I got math. I was good at it. I absorbed every lesson so easily that it was rare I needed the practice provided by homework. I didn't participate because I didn't have any questions. I didn't organize my binder because wtf did that have to do with math? So I got Cs.

At this point, not only is effort perceived as equivalent to results, it's actually rated as a higher priority! If I get 80s and 90s on every test, obviously I don't NEED to do the homework, I don't NEED to participate, and I sure as fuck don't need to reorganize my binder. But the teachers wanted to see effort - whether to make the kids feel better or to reassure themselves of their worth as educators I don't know. But whatever the motive, it brought down my GPA for no good reason, and THAT pissed me off to no end.

102 Oddly enough, this makes me want to become a teacher all the more. I'm (bullshit) majoring in English, mainly to supplement my novel-writing, but there are places 'round here that are always looking for part-timers to teach one or two specialized subjects.

I am soooo looking forward to being the English Teacher from Hell. When I get through grading their essays, it's going to look like I was butchering cattle on it.

103 So, I'm at the E.R. getting stitched/stapled up after a bar fight. The Doctor asked if I won? With my one, uncollapsed lung, I weakly responded, "No, but I gave it a strong effort against that 6'9'' 290 lbs bastard, whose girlfriend I hit on".

104 re 101:

That is my kids to a t.  All 100% on tests but because they didn't do the BS that the teacher wanted, ie: journaling, keeping a 'portfolio', etc. they barely passed.    Mastering the subject is not important, how you feel about it is.

105 I relish hearing about chumps like this, it's just going to make it easier for me to bring the heat.  People will always care about RESULTS effort be damned.

106

Dear Mr. Greenwood,

I know you tried really really hard this semester.  The fact that you put in such effort shows how much you care and how much you respect me as your professor.

With that said the fact that you got 13 out of 50 on your final exam still makes you a stupid buttfucker.  Because of all or your hard work I have decided to raise your grade to an F+.

You approached me earlier this year and asked me for some career advice and I didn't have time to discuss your future with you so I will give you some advice now: Learn how to clean a Slurpee machine you hard working stupid buttfucker.

107 > What will a workforce or voting population full of people with such a mindset look like?

Pretty ugly. Speaking from personal experience, living with a person like that is a damned nightmare. The person was a relative, which made it worse (harder to kick out of the house).

Person is gone now, but my life sucks a lot more due to the fallout.

There's going to be a lot of that before we're done with the generation.

108 The absolutely irony of dividing the whole universe into 'light' and 'dark' sides, and then saying only 1 side believes in absolutes just gave me an aneurism.

Of all the idiotic crap slipped into the Star Wars universe in the newest 3 movies, that one took the first prize. The fact that it was a deliberate idiot's slap at President Bush made it even more deliciously moronic. The whole series the light side talks about how you have to be absolutely careful never to stray, constantly spewing absolutes... then that line? As he hacks his friend's legs off and leaves him burning alive in lava for being on the dark side??

109

The kids will be all right, as long as they stay in government work. But as was noted in Ghostbusters, the private sector expects results.

Lucky for them, we're about 10 years away from having nothing but government jobs.

110 Effort is certainly admirable, but the purpose of education is to achieve understanding of the material.

Without reading the other comments, because I'm lazy:

That's bullshit, Slu.  The purpose of education is to impart self-esteem.  It's to make me feel, and to experience, and to explain my answer.  To give back, to be a citizen of the world, to be a PART of something.  To.....

Oh, hell.  You wingers wouldn't understand.

111 Sorry.  Didn't sign my full name.  Suckers.

112 I'm currently attending university as an electrical engineering major. I work my ass off, taking 18 credit hours a term so I can use the National Guard to help pay my way through school (that, plus working 30 hrs a week and the GI bill from 7 years of being an active Marine). I work my ASS off and am pulling a 2.9 right now.

And these jackasses want an A for effort? If my school tried to give me an A for effort I'd fucking LEAVE! The LAST thing I need is to become a shitty engineer because some retard in admin decided I "deserved" a better grade because I'm working hard! These fuckwits don't know what working hard is! Here's the test question for them: do they want to drive on a bridge built by a guy who got an A for effort? How about undergo open heart surgery by a doctor who passed because he "tried hard." These future government workers/dole recipients have ZERO clue as to how the real world works, and just want the easy life handed to them on a platter.

Here's a disturbing little factoid for them: what happened to people with this attitude 200 years ago? Answer: they died, either from sheer incompetence or because they turned to a life of crime and wound up swinging. Irresponsibility used to get you killed, even as few as a hundred years ago. Not anymore, and this is the caliber of citizen we get.

I weep for my nation but rejoice that my competition for jobs is looking better (for me) by the day!

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114 Yeah, a lot of my students think the same...and so do their parents.

115 I had a student complain in class about getting a "C" on a paper that was covered in red ink.  Another student on the other side of the class responded, "Hell, you ought to see what he did to my A."

I pointed out that "A" work has a lot more interesting stuff to comment on and fix.

116 I started a bit of a sh^& storm last week of at Hot Air when I suggested that students could only get 50% of federal loans unless there degree required a full year of calculus.  And no Fed loan money for graduate students unless they had 2 years of calculus...

This is a perfect example why.

Higher education needs to reset expectations, and that reset will force changes through the public education system.  And nothing changes motivations like money.  Even in academia.

When I was at Georgia Tech, the all-mens average was around 2.4. In junior ME classes with 40 students, usually only 2-4 A's, and 8-10 B's usually on the curve.  When I got to business school with all the ivy and mini-ivy students used to major league grad inflation were shell shocked by the pace...

117 “What else is there really than the effort that you put in?”

Ummm, results? 

I don't want incompetent engineers who "try hard" but fuck up all the time designing my bridges and airplanes.  Nor do I want surgeons who "try hard" but fuck up and kill 50% of their patients carving on people.

Me: hey bank, I tried really really hard to make sure that $10M check wouldn't bounce, so how about clearing it anyway even though my account only has a buck fifty in it? 

118

This calls for a couple of quotes from The Incredibles:

"When everyone's special, then no one is."

"We keep finding new ways to celebrate mediocrity."

119 When I got to business school with all the ivy and mini-ivy students used to major league grad inflation were shell shocked by the pace

The dropout rate in the first year of my entering grad school class at UCSD in the early 80's was 50%.  I had one friend who aced his first semester - perfect 4.0 and he dropped out saying he couldn't take it anymore. 

Among entering undergrad freshmen, only 20% would ever graduate from UCSD in the early 80's.

120 Your mother cares about your intentions. Maybe your friends care about your intentions.

The Universe doesn't give a shit about anything but consequences.

People like to say that "90% of life is just showing up." Wrong. Showing up is a prerequisite, the counter doesn't start until you get there.

I speak from experience, I battle a predilection to not give a shit about other people's schedules every damned day. It's like a fucking war getting up in the morning, and if anybody deserves extra credit for trying, I'm way the fuck ahead of this Greenwood shit in line.

121 Kinesiology is not bullshit

Sounds like nothing a sophomore mechanical engineering student who took a biology class along the way couldn't handle.

122

At least my asshole student only required a C for showing up to class (and he got laughed at, which pissed him and his compatriots off immensely, but that's a whole other story).

You know, there is a reasonable way around this -- I did reward students for actually trying to do the work...it meant they didn't receive a zero.  They might get the lowest of F's, but it wasn't a zero, since is was English Comp. (that most hated of classes), anyone who got above a zero were allowed to revise longer papers for a chance at a higher grade.  Don't know if that works for any other class, but it does for composition and rhetoric.

Sometimes you do have to offer the carrot -- doesn't mean you automatically hand them the keys to Bugs' pantry.

 

 

123

Oh, and I didn't grade with a red pen all the time (after I got the lecture about not using one) -- sometimes I used this atrocious neon pink one (it was really rancidly ugly -- after a time the students requested the red), and I gave them the "here you are all equally worthless -- until you prove otherwise" the first day of class...along with a very descriptive outline of what sort of work netted you what sort of grade.

...and English used to be (used to be, mind) a perfectly valid and worthwhile major -- until the special interest groups got ahold of it...

 

124

The Universe doesn't give a shit about anything but consequences.

Can I use that?

125

Sorry, should have qualified myself.

Can I use your statement to display negativity and abject moral poverty on your behalf?

126 I always likes the "you all start out with an A" approach...."its yours to fuck up".  That lets them know that getting an A is possible.

I had one prof in an elective art class on surrealist art that stated he wouldn't give an A to anyone but an art major.  Fuck that shit.

127 In the first week or two of being a TA for an upper level bio class (aka premed class), I'd get these premed grade grubbers digging for grades.  So I adapted by reconstructing the classwork to give everyone a chance at getting feedback of their research term paper and how to improve it before it was finally submitted.  After it was submitted, and graded, it was a done deal, no changes.

  Amazingly, I didn't here from all that many grubbers later in the session because they were actually learning how to do quality work with feedback in the process, rather than grubbing for recognition after the fact.  The key is to actually teach, not just grade.  

Teachers (and schools) who are overrun by grade grubbers may not be teaching as much as they are just grading... 

128 I weep for America when I see idiots like these demanding something to which they are not entitled nor have worked for.

129

I used to delight in showing engineers how hard English is. They thought they'd dropped in for a vacation elective. After all, they could already speak it, couldn't they? You don't have to listen to an engineer for long to realize just how tentative that supposition is. They were drop-happy: once they realized we'd give "gentleman's C's" they'd clear the hell out, because they didn't want to damage their employer-review GPA. To the average engineering student, anything you can't cram for off a fraternity cheat sheet is bullshit.

The sad cases, though, were the education majors getting a "teaching minor."  The old degree was Bachelor of Education, left over from the normal school days, abbreviated BEd. The rumor was that was where they earned it. BEd's would want to know in contractual terms on the first day what the exact point spreads were for grade segments, and when the pop quizzes would be, so they could invest sufficient effort and no more. The point of view was that "I don't need to know this subject all that well; I'm only going to teach it."

130 You rhetorically asked "what would a workforce look like...." referring to the entitlement mentality juxtaposed against 'effort' being a condition that should be taken into account.

Well, I'll tell you what it looks like. I've got 3 women, 2 of them are in their early 40s, one is black, one is lesbian (I am an equal opportunity employer), the last is in her 30s and is white.

They all went to public high school. None have any college experience. This is okay IF they had basic communication skills.

I am SO tired of hearing English mangled, tenses mixed, sentences ending with prepositions, and if I hear the "ain't" 1 more time I may vomit and spin my head like linda blair. I am constantly correcting their speech, as they are representatives(!) of my company(!), but to no avail.

When we have meetings to retrain and address these issues, I get complaints about having to attend such as: "I've been answerin' phones for over 10 years. You think I don't know what I'm doin'? I ain't gonna be at that meeting. I have a doctors appointment."

This, sir, is what the entitlement and effort employees look like.
And if I fire them, I get sued for -pick your reason here__________.
My favorite threat from them is that I tend to create a hostile work environment because I frowned at a (now) former employee as she lied to me and I wasn't buying it. Others saw the frown and the disbelief, as well as the hands akimbo, and assumed it was 'threatening'.

heavy sigh.

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132 Sarbanes-Oxley has already given us the "A" for effort in the working world.  We've had idiocy like TQM before, but Sarbanes-Oxley adds teeth with the threat of jail.

Regulation regimes quickly divorce themselves from results because they substitute bullshit compliance checklists for actual planning and management.

When the business starts going under, the kinds of officious dipshits that thrive on wielding the compliance club will never stop telling everyone what a great job they are doing keeping the chairs so perfectly aligned on the decks of the Titanic.

133 By this standard, the following events actually took place in history:
1.  Columbus really did make it to Asia as he tried really really hard to get there
2.  Edison invented the light bulb on his very first try as that is what he was trying really really hard to do
3.  Al Gore was elected president in 2000 because he wanted it really really badly and tried really really hard to get elected
4.  Adolf Hitler and the Nazis won WWII because they puts lots of effort into it.
5.  The Russians beat us to the moon because they put a man in space first and really really wanted to beat us to the moon.
6.  The Confederate States of America became a successful independent nation in 1861 because the really really wanted to.
7.  Custer won the Battle of the Little Big Horn because he had less chance of winning and devoted the rest of his life to the battle.

Incredible reasoning that trying hard should result in maximum reward regardless of outcome.  What a bunch of weenies.

134 I used to get that when I taught part-time. My response: "Don't tell me about your process. I'm interested in the outcome."

135 "Sarah Kinn, a junior English major at the University of Vermont, agreed, saying, “I feel that if I do all of the readings and attend class regularly that I should be able to achieve a grade of at least a B.”

Sarah also believes that she deserves to make $80,000 per year minimum straight out of college...you can make book on that."

Well, actually she does not.  She does believe that if you attend every class, actually pay attention, and do all the readings you have all the tools available to put yourself in position to produce papers and responses of at least B level quality.

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GlassesShop particularly pride ourselves on the quality of our tiffany gifts lenses and coatings that we offer on all our tiffany silver.coach bags

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153 The summer is coming,tiffany jewelry is your best choice.So you can choose a popular style tiffany jewelry for yourself.You will be more beautiful.

You may like 646-204 and 642-845,also you want to pass them.We can help you.

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