1 Gabe, you may wanna recheck that graphic. It ain't workin' for me, but all the others are.

2 Operator error...

3 Smoke 'em if you got 'em...thanks Gabe I will.


As for the graphic.....well it's not very stimulating that's for sure.
We better be getting a boatload of Viagra with that money.

4

Praise be to Obama! it's raining grape kool-aid and snowing pork chops at my house.

(see nothing to worry about)

5 If it gets any deeper we'll be in China.. Er.. Uh.. Shit.

6 Annnnd that's not depressing. 

7 That's nothing. You should see the graph when you account for stimulus, TARP, and the cost of unicorn skittles. It goes into triple negative digits.

8 Where is the RNC? Where are the commercials showing things like this? E-verify was now defunded? It is not only the conservative media and blogs job. The RNC should be going to war. Mr Steele?

Load up the chambers with unrestrained rage and challenge these arrogant Stalinist.

9

You guys are so fucked.  Let me know if you want to borrow a few billion for that loaf of bread you soon won't be able to afford.

10 I saw in a comment over at Freepers, that obama said that there are now 15 GOP House members that will vote yes on the pork bill.

Can someone get me Vicodin and Valu Rite for the knife twisting in my back.

11

Way to ruin my buzz from the Gregg/Caterpiller CEO stories.  Ah well, reality is reality.  As fun as it is to watch some stick it to the Titanic captain and jump off the ship, we're still all on it.

12 The escalating price of Hopium and Changium.

13 All I have is a friggin pellet gun. Mr wizard, help!

14 But remember: liberals insist it's all Bush's fault because he ran up deficits for 8 years that don't add up to a fraction of the one Democrats are forcing on us now...

15


I understand you can make a nice granola from peat moss, fish scales, old sweatsocks, tin and boogers.

Sounds like I could live on that...for a while.

16 Even more depressing, that graph doesn't seem to include an estimated value for TARP II in it.  Add another 3-15% of GDP to the deficit for that alone (depending on how much it is and how it is paid out).

17 We're on the Titanic and congress keeps ordering caviar for the band.

18

Just got back from a week in central Florida (or as I call it, Redneckistan) to visit family.  Got to shoot a wild boar- good practice for what's to come seeing as how we'll all be hunting and scavenging our own food soon.

Unfortunately no wild boar here, and I won't stoop so low as to eat my dog.  The neighbor's cat might start looking pretty tasty though the way things are looking.

19
Lovely...

20

Think about it like this.

1 Million dollars per day.

For the last Fucking 3000 YEARS.

A Trillion is not something to just roll allong off your toungue in a spat with your average TV reporter. This is Serious Shit.

And Fucked Up.

21

hollowpoint,

when the shit hits the fan, you should set up shop back in Florida there'll be lots of drifters and hobos making their way thur down there, easy pickings and not half bad if ya cook'em right.

 

22 And yet, there are no economists that think The Messiah is full of shit up to his fucking jug eared head.

23

dang it, forgot to change my name back, lol

 

24 So the world will lend us these trillions of dollars by buying Treasury securities, no? This prevents us from printing oceans of fiat money, no? Would the mandarins at the Fed please tell the rest of us where the world is going to come up with the money to lend? By printing their own fiat money, perhaps?

I routinely scoff at the "fractional reserve banking" conspiracy theorists, and do so now. But seriously, can someone explain to me where all this foreign cash will originate? At a time of economic contraction? Are there vast hoards of dollars outside the nation that will return to buy this debt? Who has these vast sums? How can other nations afford to become creditors and lock up even more of their dollar reserves, especially when the interest rates we will pay are so poor?

Or maybe the Fed really does have plans to just print money from the outset.

25 The streets will run red with blood.

Seriously.

26

"A Trillion is not something to just roll allong off your toungue in a spat with your average TV reporter. This is Serious Shit."

Well, see, we had to give poor black people, and the cities they live in, enough money to pretend they were living as normal working people and a facade sort of like Rock Ridge in Blazing Saddles.

Thunderdome, here we come...if Mack Avenue was bad before, it shoul dbe way worse in a few years.

See, we taxpayers paid once for the fake city, and now we have to pay about a thousand times again.

Wonder if we actually have enough stupid rich people to pay this shit off.

I am starting to think the media saying how great Barry is, as liberals think of blacks, means they know he will fuck shit up big time as he is the first Affirmative Action President.

I can't believe that fucking guy is the President...unbelievable.

27 In college I learned that credit was free money; it's about time the government learned the same.

28 I just gotta constantly wonder if it's the intended purpose of Obama and the Democrats to destroy this country.  They surely aren't that stupid!

29 Fucked. Absolutely fucked.

30 #8:  The reason there are no RNC ads is the same reason the RNC didn't drop that supposedly $160M ad buy in the last 10 days of the election that was reported. The little secret is that they're in on the whole fucking thing. There is no sincere and genuine two party system anymore. Why do you think there's been no ad buy from the RNC or more RINO talking heads on every news show 24-7 shouting  and screaming about the140 pages of health care fascism in Porkulus (that's right 18% of the whole Senate bill devoted to Health Information technology).....sinister fucking language about this Orwellian health IT czar who will 'guide' doctors to the appropriate medical decisions

"(4) provides appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care"

and prevent 'health care disparities'.

"(11) improves efforts to reduce health disparities"

More language about the future use of biosurveillance......

‘(C) OTHER AREAS FOR CONSIDERATION- In making recommendations under subparagraph (A), the HIT Policy Committee may consider the following additional areas:
(i) The appropriate uses of a nationwide health information infrastructure, including for purposes of--
‘(I) the collection of quality data and public reporting;
‘(II) biosurveillance and public health;

So you'll get care if you young and of a certain demographic and you'll die if you're old and of another demographic all the while being watched through their biosurveillance system. It's right out of fucking Gattica.

We are so fucked it's almost beyond comprehension. It's still a two party system alright...just not Dems and Repubics...it's those inside the Beltway and the rest of us slaves. We're being fucked not only by the Marxists but the Republican poseurs too.

31 That chart looks like This Chart only upside down... hmmmmm.
My garden is coming along good.  Weathers nice in Florida.

32

Remember the good old days when- despite a good economy- the press wouldn't shut the fuck up about the deficit?

Well, you can pretty much forget about the MSM talking about that icky deficit thingy for the next four years.  Thanks, Obama!

33 Geez, they've only controlled Congress since Jan 2007 and look at the trend!

34 Do all the libtards have these hocky stick graphs?

35 #30 sorry....Gattica = Gattaca

36 Has anyone here seen the very hot chick spanks the stimulus video at Hot Air?

37 Heh. That thing looks like a graph of Hugh Heffner's vital signs.

38 I know! We'll inflate our way out!

39

This is where the whole thing has gone to grade A fuckin' stupid. I would say pardon my french, but the the Euro trash apparently have the frickin' common sense to not fall into this stupid bailout and stimulus travesty.

 

LET THEM FAIL. We will sort it out, and a lot quicker and more cleanly than if we drag things out with this stupid wrongheaded policy.

 

As it stands, there is NO WAY we can survive as a country with this government under a debt load 10-12x the yearly tax intake.

 

We are hosed!

 

 

40  theadmiral

We are so fucked it's almost beyond comprehension. It's still a two party system alright...just not Dems and Repubics...it's those inside the Beltway and the rest of us slaves. We're being fucked not only by the Marxists but the Republican poseurs too.


When did you start giving in to your enemies, both foreign and domestic? We have to expose them. The middle class does not want to carry free loaders. I hope you are wrong about republicans. If your not then we must fight for ourselves. I don't believe the average American will lie down for this.

If I were to buy a weapon, what do you suggest?

41 A small mean part of me wants to feel spiteful toward all the old folks who voted for this loser because they were afraid of losing their social security, medicare, welfare, etc and now they will eventually lose necessary, life-saving medication and treatments because they are too old to justify expending the rationed meds on them.  Don't get me wrong - I like old folks.  I'm getting kind of close to being one myself.  At what age will it be determined that my husband can no longer receive his diabetic medication and the occasional stint for his heart?

42 Does this chart consider the fact that tax receipts for 08 and the next several years are going to be way down thus causing the deficit to be even larger.

43 At least we have hope & change, folks, hope & change.

44 WSJ is in the business of selling newspapers...
and in the tank for socialists.

45

@#12:

Hopium and Changium are fissile products of Unobtainium

46 One upside, I guess. As a parent, it has pissed me off to no end that the looming disaster of social security and medicare was a can being kicked down the road for my kids to deal with.

The spendulus at least accelerates the fall.

47 Reboot! I.am .bitter.

48 We're all going to die.

Seriously, if they get into health-care rationing and government control of prescriptions, I'll probably bury my wife inside of three years.

49 The Federal budget was about 25% of GDP during WWII. 

50 #40- Locus, get with me offline, I do gunslinger work for a living. Azrael556 at hotmail dot com.

51 Isn't it time to start the plans for Texas to secede?

52 #40: I'm not giving in....just stating my opinion on the state of our republic. I have no interest in being a slave to any socialist or Marxist hunta posing as our government. I, too have faith in the middle class but by the time the sheeple awake from their slumber, much of the Alinsky-Marxist agenda will have been implemented. I'm convinced at some point their will be a tipping point....just not sure when or what the catalyst will be.

And you'll need more than one weapon and get them before HR45 works its way through Congress. And get ammo, like now....before any of the ammo accountability legislation that's working through 18 states passes by some chance. Cover your basis....a handgun that makes big holes, .45ACP, a shotgun.....maybe a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 and then a basic AR in .223/5.56.

53

to watch CNN or MSNBC it's a different universe, it's downright scary

 the obamatrons are not in the same reality as we are, mostly they don't have a clue really bad things are on the way, but some know, and i am truly beginning to believe that they are intentionally causing them so they can jam more socialism down our throats and the R's are letting them get away with it, if not in cohoots with'um

okay, i'm offically paranoid now, is everyone happy?

54 3  We better be getting a boatload of Viagra with that money.   Don't know about that but I heard someplace today that Queen Nancy has slipped the condom money back in.

55 Maybe we could put the whole state of Nevada up for sale on eBay?  Someone might buy it...

56 Deficits don't matter during a Democrat administration. They are only of concern when there is an evil Republican in the White House.

57

Even scarier is the fact private debt is 300% annual GDP.

There won't be a recovery.

58 We are so fucked it's almost beyond comprehension. It's still a two party system alright...just not Dems and Repubics...it's those inside the Beltway and the rest of us slaves. We're being fucked not only by the Marxists but the Republican poseurs too.

Yup, with one exception.  Gramsci/Alinsky commanded their disciples to infiltrate every single institution in the US, with amazing success.  It's not just inside the beltway, it's also Hollywood, the universities, the public schools, the media, hell, even a lot of churches.  What makes you think the Republican Party wasn't way high on that list?  It's not like they had to expend any effort in infiltrating the Democrats for the last 50 years... they gave themselves over willingly.

And yes.  We are well and truly fucked.

Qwinn

59 @55: yeah, but then where would we keep Reid?

60 Dangling is the opposite of stimulated. Maybe it should be renamed the Limpulus?

61 45:
haha.  Way too many people have been smoking Hopium.  Chasing the chicomm dragon.

Hate to say it, but this is why many of us were Romney supporters...

Imagine a crashing plane and we need a pilot... McCain was like someone who got his pilot training by watching Airplane! (at least he knows what the cockpit looks like) and Obama strides in confidently fully expecting there to be an xbox controller in there like in his flight simulator game.

62 He said he'd bring change, didn't he?

He's changing a bad economy into a worse economy.

In my book that's one campaign promise kept.

63 but then where would we keep Reid?

Package deal.  Buyer must take Reid too.

64

I will say it again.    1 Million Dollars per day, For the last 3000 Years is what the these assholes want to shove down our necks in a stimulus pak.

What a failure.

65 No doubt, doing nothing is the exact and correct course - the exact opposite of what the great poser is selling. Buy ammo now, because there's more 'change' to come!

66 A chemistry professor in a large college had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab the Professor noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back, and stretching as if his back hurt.
The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The  student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist government.
In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked, 'Do you know how to catch wild pigs?'
The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke. 'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side. The pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.
Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.
The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America . The government keeps pushing us toward socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc.. While we continually lose our freedoms -- just a little at a time.
No.Free.Lunch! Evah.

67 Gabe, I passed "alarm" some time ago. I'm now on "terror". And I'm almost looking forward to "calm".

As in "Fear accompanies the possibility of death. Calm shepherds its certainty."

68 theadmiral

Thanks for the advice. I just think we need to mobilize a response in regards to the takeover that seems to be happening. I think we have been conditioned to under react to liberal agendas. If we believe this is a coup we need to scream it from the roof tops.

I just watched a KGB officer from the 70's stating virtually all your points in regards to taking over America.

http://tinyurl.com/bvphss

69 First of all, look at the graphic. What does it suggest?

That both spending and economic productivity makes a huge difference.

Clinton had the benefit of the culmination of the desktop computer revolution to increase productivity (and to be honest the CNC production revolution). Along with Newt Gingrich's Contract with America.

While this spending pattern is disaster, it does have the seeds of a Republican return.

Spending in this way, huge deficits, debases the currency and makes imports of oil and cheap Chinese stuff more expensive, increasing the cost of living. Think the "Misery Index" ... and all the spending for Welfare and other stuff for Democratic bases that vote Democratic anyway won't help get votes in the middle.

Next, the spending patterns do not have a large-scale patronage ala FDR. It's money for the Field Mouse or other stuff that does not create a large patronage network.

Finally, the war over who gets what creates Republican openings. Manufacturers, energy producers, farmers, and most other productive people will get shafted. Along with high income earners (defined as more than say, 75K a year). All those Hollyweird folks will be singing a different tune to 75% marginal rates.

70 Here is a depressing graphic; a chart of the stimulus, the stimulus with interest, and the population of the US. 

71 I'm listening to Levin rail on John F. Kerry about his statement that (paraphrasing), "If we give them their tax cuts, there is no guarantee they'll invest their money in the US. They're free to invest it anywhere they want, if they want. There's no guarantee they'll invest it in the projects we want. So government can make the decisions the private sector won't, today. WTF do we put up with this fucker? And we wonder why we can't get tax relief in this bill, but pay out every orifice to fund their programs? I can't stand these Stalinists.

72 Maybe the "O" is in reference to the economy. Ya' know, like a goose egg.

I'm picturing rallies in the next couple of years where people are showing him the "O sign," but for entirely different reasons than in the campaign.

73 Maybe I'll sign us up for that freecreditreport.com thing.

74 The tragedy of it all is to read works such as Thomas Paine, Rousseau, and Smith and understand how far we have come from the founding fathers. It's a tragedy but I don't think any one of these clowns in congress have read and understand any of the founding philosophical documents of our republic. Thus we are doomed....

75 Anybody read Term Limits by Vince Flynn?  NOT that I'm advocating that kind of term limit... but I understand why the book was so popular.

76 67 flenser:

Praise for the awesome Farscape quote.  God I miss that show.

Qwinn

77 #75: That's one of my favorite books......(not that I'm advocating anything either)

78 Jesus Fucking Christ this thread is fucking deep.  Did I miss Something?  Obama is still Teh Oen right?

79 @48: I hear you. A free market medical system is the difference between cutting-edge surgery within three weeks of diagnosis and losing one's uterus at 24. Oh, and the need for FUCKING CHEMO.

80

 

Ah!  Now see... If you turn that graphic upside down and uh, look again and, uh you know, squint REAL hard with your little beady rascist white cracker eyes?

It's all good!

 

81 I keep seeing recommendations to buy guns and ammo.

But who, precisely, are we supposed to shoot?  Our neighbors?  The cops? Random hobos?  Iran?

This isn't like the Revolutionary War or the War Between the States, where there were clearly identifiable sides.

I don't think we can plausibly shoot our way out of this one.

When the imbeciles stood up on the soap box, we listened and never challenged.
When the imbeciles asked us to fill the ballot boxes, we did, and never questioned.
What makes anyone think that the ammo box can save us now?

82 Brian: Shooting is therapeutic. It's loud and it puts holes in things. It's useful.

83 Brian, when that time comes, you will know. Now what the hell are you waiting for. Ditto 82.

84 brian

But who, precisely, are we supposed to shoot?  Our neighbors?  The cops? Random hobos?  Iran?

This isn't like the Revolutionary War or the War Between the States, where there were clearly identifiable sides.

Obvious points but well spoken. The question as I see it is what will hold us together? We have no unifying principal anymore. Obama has removed Tito (our constitution) and like Yugoslavia we will fragment into areas of like minded peoples.

That is worse case scenario but one I would like to be prepared for.

85 @81... gee, and I was practicing my battle cry: "Wolverines!"  Now what am I going to do with this reloading press?

86 @48: I hear you. A free market medical system is the difference between cutting-edge surgery within three weeks of diagnosis and losing one's uterus at 24. Oh, and the need for FUCKING CHEMO.

I was thinking about this whole push for health care rationing in this bill and it struck me that the proper free-market approach to scarce health-care resources is to try to innovate new products and ways of delivering them, whereas the leftist approach is to start rationing stuff, with no thought as to how to move beyond what we have to something better. It really is a complete 180-degree difference in mindset. They see a need to cut people off from access, we see opportunities to make things better. Of course, that's why they are sub-human scum.

87

Kinda wish our side had spent some of the previous eight years acting like spending levels mattered. Maybe W could have vetoed a spending bill or something.

Now, our complaints are ringing somewhat hollow.

88 Look, I can do math.  If the government orders soldiers to fire on civilians I see only two outcomes:

1) They obey, in which case we don't have a chance no matter how many guns we have because they have more.

2) They disobey, in which case the government falls.

Given the way the military feels about The One, which way do you think it breaks?

You want a gun to keep the thugs out of your shit and off your wife?  Grand.  I can get behind that, it's eminently sensible.

You think you have a chance against the Marines?  Either you know something I don't know, or you're a fool.  Or you could believe as I do that the Marines won't follow illegal orders, and you're just talking.

People aren't buying guns and ammunition because they think they have a chance against the U.S. military in a shooting war.  They're buying them because Barry doesn't want them to have guns.  Which is probably the best reason of all to buy one.

89 W and McCain were both socialist plants.  They're the only choices we've really been offered since 1992.  Anyone different from our side (Thompson, Palin) is politically assassinated before they even got a chance.

In my more paranoid moments, I wonder if even all the BDS we've suffered over the last 8 years was deliberately orchestrated from above, precisely so we'd feel obligated to defend "compassionate conservatism".

Qwinn

90 #81: There are clearly identifiable sides already....maybe not in the blue coat / grey coat Civil War sense but more along ideological lines:

red state / blue state
big government / limited government
Alinsky-Marxist / traditional God-fearing Americans
overbearing, spending government / tax revenue generating private sector (think 'Atlas Shrugged')

The lines have been drawn and the powder is in the keg. It's only a matter of what and when starts it. You'll know when the time comes. It may not be shooting, could be a tax revolt or something along the lines of the peaceful beginning of the American Revolution. We have already re-created and are experiencing taxation without representation. Do you feel appropriately represented in Washington? I sure don't.

And FWIW shooting is cathartic. My range is my therapist. I go every week like a good little patient..

91 88:

You're forgetting a third possibility.  Government doesn't tell the military to -shoot- civilians, just to arrest them.  And civilians go quietly to the reeducation camps.  IMO the most likely outcome.

As horrible as it is, that's pretty much why you need the guns.  The first time they come to arrest, you have to resist, somehow, and -make- them use force against you.  That may be what's required to get the military guys (who by the time this happens will have probably been largely selected for political bias, just like every other institution has been infiltrated) to really realize what they're being asked to do, and then decide to disobey orders.

Qwinn

92 I dunno, Qwinn.  I never felt obligated to defend W's policy decisions.  I ridiculed "Compassionate Conservatism" the first time it came out of his mouth.  I mercilessly criticized the man as a liberal before he was anointed The One True Republican.

For all his flaws, he was better than anyone else on offer in 2000 and 2004.

We had a chance to get it right in 2008, but due to a combination of an idiotic "horse race" primary scheme and a complete lack of articluation from the party membership, we wound up with the Democrats choosing BOTH candidates.

I don't recall hearing anyone mention fixing the broken primary system between 2000 and 2008.  If we'd have fixed that, maybe we could have had someone that resembled a conservative running on the R side of the house.

If three certain little senators find something resembling a spine (and if it wouldn't land me in the clink for terrorism, I'd send each of them a pig's spine on ice) we could see the porkulus bill go down in flames.

Obama's presidency is over.  It was over the moment he let Pelosi dictate terms without showing her the pimp hand.  If the Republicans can actually ACT like Republicans and keep her at bay until 2010, we just might come out of this alive.

But in 2010, we need to replace every RINO we can with a REAL Republican in addition to swapping out every single vulnerable Democrat we can.

Like I said - we aren't gonna shoot our way out of this one.  We're gonna have to outsmart the critters.

93 Yes it is bad.  I've been saying all along that the best course of action was to do nothing and allow the market to settle.  Having agreed with you on that, I think you guys are losing perspective.  We live in the greatest country the world has ever known.  We've been through tough times before and will do so again.  Conspiracies? Socialist takeovers?  Come on, that sounds like the Lefties we used to laugh at.  Remember when they kept saying Bush was going to cancel the election?  Pffft!

Things are going to be bad for a while, maybe a long while and maybe very bad, but we will make it through.  We have grown too comfortable and have not had the bad times that our parents and grandparents took for granted as a part of life. 

Regardless of what happens, my treasure is in heaven.  I'm just here waiting for the bus.

94 @90 - I'm already making plans to reduce my income so there's less to tax.  I'm counting on the 2010 elections to get some sane people in there and start undoing some of this crap.

I'm not getting too apocalyptic about the whole thing - I remember how bad the Carter administration was, sitting in gas lines half the freaking day... if we get to that point again, they'll be digging up Reagan.

95 A continental flight from Newark to Buffalo has crashed and hit a house.   Per CNN breaking news.   There were 48 people on board.    Larry King has it live gabe.

96 But who, precisely, are we supposed to shoot?  Our neighbors?  The cops? Random hobos?  Iran?

All of the above and probably some people who are slipping my mind at the moment.

I hear you, though, and while it is becoming more and more clear that the country is ungovernable as currently configured, that awareness has not spread deep enough to cause action. It could end up that we do something as simple as require that people self-identify as "reds" or "blues" and, while we preserve access to true "public goods" like roads and the legal system, the "blues" fund their own "pet projects" and the "reds" fund their own and you can't partake of the other side's "stuff" without paying a fee.

The main problem, as I've come to see it over time, is that the Democrats will never agree to let Republicans leave "the Union" because we pay for everything. That whole "blue states pay more into the tax system than red states" is a sham argument because it's "red" individuals in the corporate world, who just happen to live in "blue" states, that pay for everything. Those "red" individuals may not be 100% conservatives, but many of them are fiscal conservatives. Since anyone who is in this situation ("red" individual in a "blue" state) knows the math on this, of course it is going to generate hostility. But you're right, as of this moment, it's just a general sense of hostility that doesn't have a discernible target or a clear method for relieving it.

97 Wait -

Qwinn, are you SERIOUSLY advocating "suicide by cop"?  And what makes you think the military is likely to listen to Obambi for ANY act against the civilian population? 

If they shoot us all, don't they win by default?

Oh, and as far as the red state/blue state thing - I happen to be the reddest motherfucker in this here blue state.  I'd really prefer not to be mowed down by one of my own kind because of some bullshit political map.

One more thing.  A story.

Way back in 2000 I said to a friend "You watch, Clinton isn't gonna go quietly.  He's enjoying it too much.  He'll find some way to declare himself El Jefe por vida".

His response: "What makes you think someone in his personal detail will let him live that long?"

98 I don't recall hearing anyone mention fixing the broken primary system between 2000 and 2008.  If we'd have fixed that, maybe we could have had someone that resembled a conservative running on the R side of the house.

And you're -still- not hearing anything about fixing it.  Because it's been deliberately set up that way.  The Republican Party has also been infiltrated.  This is why the Republican Party endorsed Specter over Toomey.

It is classic leftist tactics.  Set up your own opposition (or infiltrate it)... and see who joins.

Qwinn

99 49 people were killed in the Continental crash, MSNBC reports.

100 A trillion here, a trillion there, and pretty soon you're talking worthless paper.

101 95 hmmm

The Buffalo newspaper says one person on the ground was killed along with the 44 passengers and four crew members. A bad fire, too.

102 @97 for the most part I agree with you - I'm certainly not in favor of suicide by cop.  But as for the military acting against the civilian population - I know too many people who had their guns confiscated by the national guard after Katrina.  A guy in my church literally wrote the book on it.  (The Great New Orleans Gun Grab)  Here's video of them going breaking into houses, guns drawn, with several of them commenting that they could not believe they were taking guns away from Americans: http://tinyurl.com/djn8rz

103 74 seat Q 400 Bombadier Tail number 3407 1 800 621-3263 (the number for families) 713 324-5080 (number for the media to call)  Insident occurred in the town of Clarence on Long street 716 741-8930 (number for Clarence residents only)

104 I hope Ace wasn't on that commuter flight to Buffalo. No reason he would be, right?

105 Continental flight operated by Colgan Air  "the plane dropped off the radar"

106 It was Continental 3407, Newark to Buffalo. Operated by Colgan Air.

107 not if he was leaving from Beirut from the coast

108 from, for... whatever... jeez.

109 "104 I hope Ace wasn't on that commuter flight to Buffalo. No reason he would be, right?

Posted by: jaleach at February 13, 2009 12:33 AM (gHrZU)"

I believe I read that he said he had to leave from a coast but it was the wrong coast but he remedied that (I assumed that he either changed the coast from which the flight left or got a ticket from where he was to the correct coast)  and then he was to take a flight I believe to Lebanon.

110 brian: "What makes anyone think that the ammo box can save us now?"

Like you said, it can't. It has been bred out of us. There's no way a public revolt could really engage our state apparatus. Sure, it's idealistic to think we could turn on our government should the time be ripe and in the spirit of our founding fathers, but we are collectively too soft and the powers that be know this. We have free speech and that's it. Now, it's being voiced by some "representatives" that speech from the Right be curtailed via the Censorship Doctrine while the Left gets to spin away as it always has. The Right has half of that tool left and is being threatened with losing the whole thing.

We can haz socialist England - unarmed, dole dependent, stagnating, and atrophying. This cannot end well and I don't as yet envision a scenario where even Zombie Reagan could turn the momentum.

People have forgotten or never experienced the Carter years, and the economic trendlines appear to be setting up worse now than they were in the seventies. Furthermore, the economic contraction is worldwide. How would elevated productivity levels here, even subsidized ones from "shovel-ready stimulus," help us dig out of the hole when trade will surely fall? Who will give us a positive (in U.S. favor) trade balance now and who will pick up our debt?

This is how Rome falls and why we'll continue to revel in bread and circuses.

111 uhh... this sort of shit only matters if the president has an "R" by his name.  Duh.

112 Unfortunately, the real problem is that there's way too many people who continue to say things like "Conspiracy?  Hah!  Nutters!".  Even if everything that's happening was explicitly laid out 60 years ago and read into the Congressional Record, it doesn't matter (apparently Cleon Skouzy was just Nostradamus x eleventybillion when he laid out the "Communist Goals" that are virtually a laundry list of the last 60 years of history.

By projecting fake conspiracy theories for the last decade, lefties have essentially completely innoculated themselves against anyone pointing out that they -have- been engaged in a massive conspiracy for decades.  Funny, though, that their own charges of conspiracies against the right remain as potent as they ever were.  We don't need the government to disarm us.  We disarm ourselves.

Qwinn

113

I'm sure that Ace would've taken a flight right out of NYC. I don't know where he lives, but NYC over the pond would seem the most likely course.

I'm just worried. Don't want to see anything bad happen to our boy.

114 Unfortunately, the real problem is that there's way too many people who continue to say things like "Conspiracy?  Hah!  Nutters!".

Bullshit. That just the easy way to dismiss the need for proof of that conspiracy. Fuck that. You have proof that the GOP's been 'infiltrated'? Post it. Otherwise, that's complete and unmitigated bullshit. 

115 You have proof that the GOP's been 'infiltrated'? Post it. Otherwise, that's complete and unmitigated bullshit.

Um.  Dude.  You don't think a good decade of the GOP laying down on every fight where they have the numbers to actually accomplish anything, only displaying some balls when it's essentially meaningless, is proof enough?  Do you think our ridiculous primary system came about by accident?  If so, funny how all the accidents always line up in such a way as to tilt things to the left.  Compassionate Conservatism.  Boosting Specter, a guy with a lifetime ACU rating of 42, over 20 points to the -left- of Ben Nelson (D), over Toomey.  Massive new entitlements.  Medicare prescription. Letting Kennedy write the education bill.  Major deficit spending.  Buying into the whole global warming nonsense.

If that isn't infiltrated, I wanna know what the hell you think being infiltrated would look like.

Do you think they -haven't- deliberately infiltrated the public school systems, Hollywood, etc.?

I'm not saying that everyone in the Republican Party is infiltrated, mind you.  They just have a controlling interest.  I'd say the Republican Party has become about as infiltrated as the Democrat Party was in the early 60's, around JFK's time.  Unfortunately, because we're pussies, it can only go one way from here.

Qwinn

116 nike shoes cucusoft air jordan shoesadidas shoes cod4 cd key call of duty 4 cd key call of duty 4 key code starcraft cd key warcraft 3 cd key diablo 2 cd key diablo 2 cd keys dvd to ipod converter free dvd to ipod converter ipod video converter free ipod video converter nike shoes air jordan shoes fake air jordans air jordan adidas superstar adidas basketball shoes jordan shoes air force ones air force air force 1 air max nike air max air max 90 nike dunk high nike dunk low nike dunk nike shox shox nike basketball shoes adidas superstar adidas basketball shoes jordan shoes air force ones air force air force 1 air max nike air max air max 90 nike dunk high nike dunk low nike dunk nike shox shox nike basketball shoes adidas shoes sneakerss nike sneakerss

117 Do you think our ridiculous primary system came about by accident? 

Don't blame maliciousness when incompetence satisfies.

I'd say the Republican Party has become about as infiltrated as the Democrat Party was in the early 60's, around JFK's time.

Speculation piled on top of conjecture on top of circular logic.

...Oh wait. I've figured it out. Qwinn is actually an agent provocateur hired by Axlerod to sow dissent. Yes, that's it, Qwinn is a spy!

Proof?  Oh, no, no. Proof isn't necessary. People who demand proof are the problem.

118

Way back in 2000 I said to a friend "You watch, Clinton isn't gonna go quietly.  He's enjoying it too much.  He'll find some way to declare himself El Jefe por vida".

I remember Chris Fuckhead Bastard Cocksucking Motherfucker Matthews pondering whether the country should allow Clinton to serve a third term. He did it in such a cutesy way that I wanted to cave his face in with a lead pipe.

119 I don't think the Republican party has been infiltrated. The real problem is that a lot of members of the religious right, although they oppose left-wing ideas, do a poor job of distinguishing between RINOs and genuine conservatives. The religious right turned up their noses at genuine Reaganites like Jack Kemp and Phil Gramm, and gave us the Bushes and Bob Dole instead.

120 adamthemad,

I'm not trying to sow discord at all.  I'm not suggesting we go third party or any of that nonsense.  The Republican Party, as fucked up as it is, is still the only real choice we've got.  We just have to stop being pussies and retake it, and seriously hold the leadership to account when they betray the party platform, that's all.

And - you asked for proof.  I gave you bullet point after bullet point.  You dismiss them all out of hand.  What do you need?  Do I need to send private investigators masked as plumbers to tape record the National Republican Committee?

I asked you a straight up question - if what I described doesn't sound like infiltration to you, then what would?

Don't blame maliciousness when incompetence satisfies.

It doesn't remotely satisfy.  To borrow the formulation of a wise man, "What can be made of this unbroken series of decisions and acts contributing to the strategy of defeat? They cannot be attributed to incompetence. If the Republican leadership were merely stupid, the laws of probability would dictate that part of his decisions would serve conservative interest."

Qwinn

121 @119... don't *even* get me started on that b'stid Huckabee. If you knew how tempted I was to start keying cars in the church parking lot...

122 Getting back to brian's question for a moment: Who to shoot? I don't know exactly, but perhaps making a list is a good thought experiment. Musing, if you were limited to, say, 25 persons - who would they be? Which would get the most result from the effort - pols or journos, etc? How would you go about it? The dumbass DC snipers held that burg in terror for months and they had minimal training, so don't say it isn't possible. For those who think that civilian gunowners wouldn't have any chance vs. the military - I agree, and thats one of the reasons I'd never shoot any soldier [aside from the fact that I respect them]. So - presto! -they wouldn't be on my list. But none of that is anything I'd look forward to. God save us all from it.

123 Jamie Dupree has got the linx to the stuff. Party time now! JM

124 Please don't anyone mistake what I said earlier to mean something other than what I meant.  I have tremendous respect for the military, and really I can see a dozen roads this is going to go down where they really -are- our only hope.  My only point was that if they were routinely sent against civilians, it might -take- resistance to wake them up into realizing they are illegal orders.  I, though, for one, would shoot to miss.

I don't think that's how it's going to go down though anyway.  The Left won't send the military against us.  The Left will dismantle the military.  That's what the "mandatory volunteer corps as well funded and equipped as the military" made up of high school and college students will be for.

Qwinn

125 I agree. They'd send cops,social workers, psychiatrists and BATF thugs. You know. Tools

126 http://tinyurl.com/ca9mj4 Jamie has got the links to the stimulus bill. Not searchable, but at least he's got the text. Party Time Now! JM

127 If I *were* going to start shooting, I'd plan it out carefully and manage it like Vince Flynn's Term Limits.  Again, not advocating anything... but if you haven't read the book, the main plotline is a handful of people have Had Enough, so they kill a few key members of Congress and send out a message via the media to the rest, informing them that they WILL balance the budget and generally straighten up and fly right, or they're next.  It's almost as satisfying as Jack Ryan becoming President.

128 As to anyone who doesn't believe the conspiracy itself exists, I offer this, which was read into the Congressional Record in 1963.

http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm


Unless Cleon Skouzy was Nostradamus x eleventybillion, there is no way he could so accurately predict the shape of the next 60 years of history.  A great deal on that list would've been utterly unthinkable at the time.  The only explanation for the accuracy is if Skouzy correctly identified their goals, and they were successful in carrying those goals out.

Qwinn

129

Fuck 'em all!

 

We need to run a "let's declare bankruoptcy!" candidate, beef up the military, and have some fun with the fuckers who come to collect!

 

Hell, if we win, it will be good... I f we don't, it is about what we could expect if we didn't try......

130

Ah, dudes. All those radical populists right after WWI were Repubs. TR was a Progressive. Nelson Rockefeller. The GOP has fielded just two candidates recognizable as conservative in the last hundred years: Goldwater, and Calvin Coolidge. The Republican party is just not conservative in a rights and property sense. You can keep trying, but it's not in their genes. 

There sure has been an infiltration of state control, but it didn't just happen in the last 20 years, or 60. You're not going to burst a la Bauer into their hideout and expose them all, mainly because their action has not been secret. Progressives are proud of it, and feel they represent a tradition. Now comes the bitter bit: people have a natural drift toward that "compassionate" viewpoint. The only things that pull ordinary folks away from it are war, the threat of war, or the threat of ideological submission, reduced to issues easily comprehended. This is why the left stays so busy mocking commie-baiting and national security.

Want to make people smarter? Looks like you can't do it with public schools.  Sneak attacks on New York don't seem to motivate them for long. Greed is good, but easily mocked and easily subverted, as we see now--get people wanting stuff, and they're not above voting in some help to get it, from you.

The Marines we worry about--as we should--are not going to be ordered to "go shoot US citizens."  The insurrectionists will first be painted as Branch Davidians, coup provocateurs, and agents of an outside power. Our military will not get the information that these are patriots. If you are lucky, a few of them will desert, but some of those will not be reliable, just the deserter sort.

Now we begin to comprehend what the confederates were up against.

131 Other than military, I'd never shoot any president. Too dumb a move, honestly. In one sense, they're mostly figureheads anyway. But I'd also want to watch him squirm, you know? pour encourager les autres.

132 I'd never shoot any president. Too dumb a move, honestly.

No kidding, but especially not this one.  The very phrase, *President Biden* sends chills up my spine.

133 comatus -Yeah, thats why I'm hoping more for the governors and states to get busy fighting this crap. The militia shit is hopeless and teh stoopit, but a state is Real World.

134 You're not going to burst a la Bauer into their hideout and expose them all, mainly because their action has not been secret. Progressives are proud of it, and feel they represent a tradition.

Actually, I completely agree with this, with a caveat:  they're quite open about their overall goals, but they still use lies and deception to get their way on the details.  The whole Global Warming shtick is a good example.  The Green movement needs to be exposed for the vehicle for Marxism that it is.  And FFS, today they've started to burn children's books older than 1985 on the pretext that -books- have -lead- in them?  I'm still comfortable calling them a conspiracy because of tactics like that.  It's -that- bullshit that we need to expose.

Qwinn

135 Which, come to think of it, may have been Obama's smartest move EVER.  What greater insurance policy is there than VP Joe Biden?

136 For some reason I don't understand, we are getting into black helicopter territory here.

137 Ah, dudes. All those radical populists right after WWI were Repubs. TR was a Progressive. Nelson Rockefeller. The GOP has fielded just two candidates recognizable as conservative in the last hundred years: Goldwater, and Calvin Coolidge. The Republican party is just not conservative in a rights and property sense. You can keep trying, but it's not in their genes.

I do have to say you're missing a pretty big figure here though. Kinda obvious.  Nixon was certainly a socialist, as was GWB, but Reagan?  C'mon.  He fought for the right principles.  You can't blame him that he was saddled with an overwhelmingly Democrat Congress for both his terms.

Qwinn

138 Qwinn, you seem to have overlooked the events that don't match what Skousen (not Skouzy) predicted: the fall of the Soviet Union, the liberation of Eastern Europe, the reunification of Germany.

139 Getting back to the porkulus... Reason has a generator that helps you add your own pork: http://tinyurl.com/auusy9

140 Here's mine:
wireless and broadband deployment grant programs (including transfer of funds to Laura Curtis for the Laura Curtis Personal Economic Stimulus Program) For necessary and unnecessary expenses related to the Wireless and Broadband Deployment Grant Programs established by section 6002 of division B of this Act, $2,825,000,000, of which $1,000,000,000 shall be for Wireless Deployment Grants and $1,825,000,000 shall be for Broadband Deployment Grants: Provided, That an additional $15,000,000 shall be paid directly to Laura Curtis in the form of subsidized loans that do not require repayment. Provided Further, That the funds be used by Laura Curtis to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony or for whatever. Provided Even Further, That Laura Curtis will receive free The Daily Show tickets for life. Provided Even Further Still, That Laura Curtis shall be treated as a cabinet-level appointment for the purpose of income tax reporting, and therefore no taxes shall be paid on any of the aformentioned benefits. And one more thing: Nancy Pelosi is hereby expelled from Congress, effective immediately upon enactment.

141 JBEB:

Thanks for the correction, I knew I was getting his name wrong.

1)  So if it's not 100% accurate, then we dismiss the whole thing?  You tell me - how accurate would you say that list is?  You've found 3 objections out of 45.

2)  Nowhere is it required that they couldn't modify specific goals in response to events.  The "grand scheme", the big picture, however, never changed.

3)  I also never claimed that they were the only force in the world, and that nothing anywhere could ever succeed in opposing them.  I'm just saying they've been very, very, very successful.  Way more than us.  And the evidence is that way too much of that list has come explicitly true to be anything like coincidence.

4)  See point # 11.  The Soviet Union was never considered critical to their goals.  They are internationalist by nature - the nationalist socialists got wiped out in WW2.

5)  Did political power in Russia change hands, at all?  Were there any trials, any repercussions for the bloodshed?  Not really.  The exact same people always remained in charge.  (And let's not forget Bush's "I looked in his eyes" nonsense). 

I believe the progressives realize that without the US to serve as an opposing force, every country that fell away from the Union would easily be reassimilated.  They needed to infiltrate us and take us out, and that was impossible when we were on our guard against communism as an external enemy. 

Quite honestly?  Go ahead and call me nuts, but... I think they basically voluntarily let the satellite states go.  What was it gaining them?  They weren't going to expand further along those borders without a major confrontation with the US.  They needed to get us off our guard.

These fuckers play long term.  And their strategy is working.  Beautifully.  The entire finance system and health care market is being nationalized as we speak.  And with their community organizers, ACORN, control of the census, etc., we're -not- ever going to get back in charge.

They've won because we are apparently only capable of fighting external enemies, but we let the show trials of McCarthy in the '50's con us into believing that there was something morally illicit about being on guard against enemies from within.

I know, I know.  "Black helicopter".  "It could never happen here."  Yeah.  My parents said that too.  Right up to about a year before they had to leave Cuba.

Qwinn

142 Laura,

That was cute. My least favorite congess person is also pelosi. It was a tough decision though, I actually hate 99.9% of congress.

143 I was just over at Videosift watching a video titled "Bizarre Republican Arguments Against the Stimulus Bill".  Reading the moonbat comments is even better.

My favorites? 

"Obama has bent over backwards to appease the GOP, but Republicans are just being difficult to get back for loosing the election."

and

"Republicans are trying to sabotage the Stimulus so that when we officially go into a Depression, they can blame Obama."

144

This is not a democrat or a republican party. Please do keep rearranging the desk chairs on the titanic.

TO ARMS TO ARMS

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government.

It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.”

The average age of the world’s great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:

from bondage to spiritual faith,

from spiritual faith to great courage,

from courage to liberty,

from liberty to abundance,

from abundance to selfishness,

from selfishness to complacency,

from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency,

from dependency back to bondage.

Alexander Tyler 1747-1813 most commonly attributed to

“The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic”

 

145

Alexander Tyler 1747-1813 most commonly attributed to “The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic”

 

This widespread myth has been debunked many times. Alexander Tyler NEVER said or wrote these things. The closer anyone ever came to writing about this kind of “voting yourself largess” was in Democracy In America by Alexis DeTocqueville.

146 Good morning, folks.

Look, this argument over who infiltrated who is really not useful.

In a quest to gain votes, the Republicans invited the Evangelicals into the party.  But the Evangelicals are largely liberals with bibles.  Instead of making government "work for the common good", they want government to "perform God's will on Earth".  And when you come right down to it, that still means someone using an ancient book to tell me how I must live my life or else.

If the Republicans had told the Evangelicals to go piss up a rope, they'd have had to form their own party, because the Democrats won't have them.

Conservatism wins every time its tried.  But the 1994 batch just didn't have the will to fight back against the minority Democrats after they took over.  They let Daschle and Bonior hound Gingrich out of the House with false charges, among other things.

Appeals to the ammo box are premature.  And the idea that we're somehow going to take the party back president first is insane.

This starts in the cities and towns.  It's a matter of education.  Right now, we have a massive learning experience going on - it's called the collapse of easy credit.

And if people cannot be convinced or cajoled, then the only option we have left is to let it all collapse and watch the dependent class die of its own sloth and incompetence.

147

Going back over some of the comments (not all) it seem that there are an awful lot of hard statements made that reflect some stretching of the truth and use of adjectives that should NEVER be used (all, always, etc) when discussing political labels and people.

 

Here are some examples:

 

All of those “progressives were Republicans”. That is the real kicker because “progressivism” was the tool of William Jennings Brian and was adopted by the Democrap party. While true TR was a progressive and true that in modern times Nixon and the Bushes were liberal that hardly makes the Republicans a “progressive Party”. Only the liberal wing of the Rockefeller Republicans fall in that category.

 

“Evangelicals are largely liberals with bibles ”.  Now that is another rather wild statement. True, it is not an ALL statement but it may as well have been with the “largely”. The most famous evangelical who was a liberal was Huckabee. He was supported by the contingent of the party who view abortion and social issues as their litmus test issue above all else. These people may or may not be liberals themselves but they will vote for a liberal if that liberal is a strong anti-abortion religious person like the Huck.

 

There are also a lot of Republicans who are true conservatives who are religious. In fact, I was say that the majority are this way. These people will look at the overall candidate on all issues rather than only one as a litmus test. The closest I come to a litmus test is one Constitutional Issues.  It doesn’t take very many bad interpretations of that document to get me to give a candidate a big thumbs down.

148 brian - no.  wrt evangelicals, anyway.  I've never seen any kind of definitive study on the political views of evangelicals.  If you've got one, by all means, put it up!  I'd really love to see it.  But I can tell you the people I know are all over the map, and I can give you blogs representing every viewpoint - from where I'm at; practically Randian in all but atheism, to Rick Warran Obamanites, or worse, Doug Kmiec.

149

In a quest to gain votes, the Republicans invited the Evangelicals into the party.  But the Evangelicals are largely liberals with bibles.  Instead of making government "work for the common good", they want government to "perform God's will on Earth".  And when you come right down to it, that still means someone using an ancient book to tell me how I must live my life or else.

You've got it backwards, my friend. Evangelicals are generally conservative across the board. Unfortunately, some Republicans hate Christians and refuse to share a political party with them. They can't just say that, of course, so they accuse Evangelicals of being "liberal" on certain issues.

Case in point: Sarah Palin is fiscally conservative by any reasonable measure, and when she had the opportunity to strike a blow against gay marriage (like any self-respecting Oogedy Boogedy would do) she chose instead to follow her state constitution to the letter. Yet she's attacked by people on the right who claim she's not "conservative". Truth is, they hate her because she's a pro-life Christian and they're too small-minded to get past that.

BTW, did you like having Reagan as POTUS? You're welcome.

150 But the Evangelicals are largely liberals with bibles.  Instead of making government "work for the common good", they want government to "perform God's will on Earth".

So now we've gone from black helicopters to this silliness.  Its an improvement I suppose.  You guys need to breathe deep.  Remember, "Serenity Now!".

151

The most famous evangelical who was a liberal was Huckabee.

That's a stretch in its own right. Huckabee at least opposed TARP, which is more than some supposedly fiscal conservatives could manage. Yes, I'm looking at you McCain.

Now, if you'd said Bush was an evangelical who was a liberal I'd be hard pressed to argue with you.

152

Today is Friday 13th. If the Rob America Blind act is going to pass, it's fitting for it to pass today.

 

153 Reading comprehension, people.

Sarah Palin - Evangelical?  NO!  She keeps her faith and her governance separate.
Reagan an evangelical?  NO!  Same deal.

Evangelical is not "anti-abortion".  I'm not Kathleen motherfucking Parker over here.  Religious people are not the enemy.  Evanglical implies, I dunno Evangelism.

But the fact that Huckabee was even allowed to throw his hat in the ring at all belies a certain support for liberalism (or a forgiveness of it) in the Evangelical wing of the Republican party.

I have a very simple litmus test.  If you think that government should do things on behalf of people, you're a liberal.  If you think that government should tell people what to do beyond "don't fuck with other people", you're a liberal.  If your first concern is not liberty for all, you're a liberal.

Huckabee and all those who supported him (not a small number) are largely liberals.  If you believe that abortion is such an evil that you are willing to subvert the Constitution in furtherance of your ideals, I can think of nothing else to call you.

Being openly religious is not the hallmark of conservatism.  I want to see that media-produced definition of conservatism wiped out because it simply ain't true.  I am an atheist.  I'm also more conservative than (I'd say) 90% of the religious folk I know.

If the Republican party is ever to succeed again, it needs to purge all the liberals from its ranks.  Having a big tent is good for circuses, not so much for promoting a coherent set of political ideals.

154

Huckabee and all those who supported him (not a small number) are largely liberals. 

Damn, brian, what the fuck were all the people who supported  McCain and Romney then? Or all the people who supported Bush in 2000 and 2004?

Being openly religious is not the hallmark of conservatism. 

In fact it pretty much is. Being hostile to religion is the hallmark of the left though, and has been ever since the idea of left and right in politics was conceived.

 

I am an atheist.  I'm also more conservative than (I'd say) 90% of the religious folk I know.

Then you are also more conservative than 100% of the atheists you know.

155

If you think that government should do things on behalf of people, you're a liberal. 

The very definition of "government" is that it does things on behalf of people. There's a genuine debate to be had as to what particular things it should and should not do, but not that it should do things.

156

That's a stretch in its own right. Huckabee at least opposed TARP, which is more than some supposedly fiscal conservatives could manage. Yes, I'm looking at you McCain.

 

The fact that the Huck opposed Tarp doesn’t make him a conservative. I base my opinion of his liberalness on his record in Arkansas. He advocated, supported, and got passage of tax increases and increased government spending. Since the ONLY record of government service we have for him is his time as governor, he is a big government liberal who advocates unconstitutional intervention in people’s lives on issues like smoking etc.

 

He is the worst form of religious person.

 

And Brian

 

Your first post made it sound like you want to purge EVERYONE who is religious from the party. THAT is why the comments came back as they did. This is not an issue of reading comprehension, it is an issue of writing what you mean with clarity.

157 Brian: you're an idiot. Perhaps you've heard of a Christian minister by the name of Rutherford? Wrote a little tome called "Lex Rex"? Ring any bells? Remember anything from Western Civ? Anything at all?

158 Damn, brian, what the fuck were all the people who supported  McCain and Romney then? Or all the people who supported Bush in 2000 and 2004?

Some were liberals.  Some were (party-first) Republicans.  I, and many others, did not support Bush in 2000 or 2004, but voted for him anyway because the alternatives were too odious.

In fact it pretty much is. Being hostile to religion is the hallmark of the left though, and has been ever since the idea of left and right in politics was conceived.

That's as may be, but it doesn't justify turning the opposition party into the clearinghouse of ridiculous religious agenda items.  Religion ought to be irrelevant to the discussions at hand here.  The only time I care about religion is when it is trying to tell me what to do.  Otherwise, I don't even notice that it's there.

Then you are also more conservative than 100% of the atheists you know.

That's not true at all.  Religion is not a necessary component of conservatism.  What happened was the religious liberals (those who, like Huckabee, wish to see God's will enshrined in our founding documents) were kicked out of the Democratic party, and the Republicans, ever the opportunists, welcomed them with open arms.  Well, they did to the Republican party exactly what the communists did to the Democratic party.

And that is how we wound up with two statist political parties in the most anti-statist nation ever founded.

159

He advocated, supported, and got passage of tax increases and increased government spending.

By that definition Ronald Reagan was not a conservative.

160 The Band: Brian: you're an idiot. Perhaps you've heard of a Christian minister by the name of Rutherford? Wrote a little tome called "Lex Rex"? Ring any bells? Remember anything from Western Civ? Anything at all?

I appreciate the compliment.  I also fail to see how that's relevant to the topic at hand.  Show me proof that you know God's will.  A book written 2,000 years ago doesn't count - it only proves you know what someone else claims is God's will.

Vic: Your first post made it sound like you want to purge EVERYONE who is religious from the party. THAT is why the comments came back as they did. This is not an issue of reading comprehension, it is an issue of writing what you mean with clarity.

Well, it wasn't my first this thread, but I don't see how you interpret the passage I wrote in that way.  Here's what I said:

In a quest to gain votes, the Republicans invited the Evangelicals into the party.  But the Evangelicals are largely liberals with bibles.  Instead of making government "work for the common good", they want government to "perform God's will on Earth".  And when you come right down to it, that still means someone using an ancient book to tell me how I must live my life or else.

If the Republicans had told the Evangelicals to go piss up a rope, they'd have had to form their own party, because the Democrats won't have them.

Now, unless you equate "evangelical" with "all religious people", then there's no way to get to your assertion.  I want to purge everyone from the party who believes that government should be used as an instrument to impose "God's will".  Any argument that boils down to "Because God said so" is a losing argument to my mind.  And that reasoning does not belong in any debate about the future of the republic.

161 flenser -

If there is a contimuum of conservatism, Reagan is near its apex.  The tax increases that happened during Reagan's presidential term (I can't speak for his time as governor) were largely done to get other cuts he wanted from the recalcitrant Congress.  And many of the non-defense spending increases were the same thing.

Defense, as you know, is one of the few things that the federal government is explicitly required to provide in the Constitution.

162

 he is a big government liberal who advocates unconstitutional intervention in people’s lives on issues like smoking etc.

Then Reagan was a big government liberal who advocated unconstitutional intervention in people’s lives on issues like smoking pot etc.

I hate to have to break this to people, but conservative and libertarian are not two words with the same meaning. They're just not.

163 Well, if conservatism means embracing statist religion, then conservatism left me, I didn't leave conservatism.

If that makes me an anarcho-capitalist, then so be it.

164

By that definition Ronald Reagan was not a conservative.

 

I don’t recall Ronald Reagan “advocating” tax increases and the only government spending he increased to any large degree was military spending.  

 

Remember, even as you said, not all government spending is bad. (Just social spending).

165 brian,

I am agnostic.  I'm also just about one of the most pro-life people you'll ever meet.

It is a leftist meme that the pro-life position can generally only be arrived at from a religious perspective, and I'm betting you buy fully into that meme.  You also appear to have totally bought into the leftist propaganda that completely twists the establishment clause inside-out to mean something it was clearly never meant to mean.

Accepting the anti-religious position in both those matters is pretty strong evidence of a willingness to wipe one's ass with the Constitution in order to enshrine one's philosophical preferences.  Atheist, heal thyself.

Qwinn

166

Religion ought to be irrelevant to the discussions at hand here. 

Why? Because you say so?

Any argument that boils down to "Because God said so" is a losing argument to my mind. 

brian, you are the distilled essence of stupidity. The fucking declaration of Independence contains arguments that boil down to "Because God said so".   Every single discussion we have here boils down to some such variant at the end, because all "first principles" are held as a matter of faith. That includes your own.

If there is a contimuum of conservatism, Reagan is near its apex.

Reagan, the President who waged the war on drugs and talked of religion and abortion and family values?

167 Sarah Palin - Evangelical?  NO!  She keeps her faith and her governance separate.

Please make sure you understand what words mean before you use them in debate.  Evangelical is not defined as the mixing of religion and govt.  There is a large segment of evangelical Christians who believe such mixing is itself a form of the sin of pride.  C.f. Allister Begg or Marc Driscoll as examples.

168

I appreciate the compliment. I also fail to see how that's relevant to the topic at hand.

You seem to be making the argument that sincere belief in Christianity stands oppose to Liberty when, if you knew anything about the history of the Reformation and Enlightenment at all, you would know that Christian doctrine concerning government is the basis for Liberty.

I want to purge everyone from the party who believes that government should be used as an instrument to impose "God's will". Any argument that boils down to "Because God said so" is a losing argument to my mind.

Where are the massive numbers of people arguing this? They live in your head, apparently.

169

Well, if conservatism means embracing statist religion, then conservatism left me, I didn't leave conservatism.

Conservatism did not leave you because you were never a conservative to begin with. If explicitly religious people cannot be conservative then you've just booted almost the entire body of people who founded the movement in the first place, from Burke to Kirk to Buckely.

Religon is not statist.. The state is statist. You don't even understand libertarianism properly.

170

Any argument that boils down to "Because God said so" is a losing argument to my mind. 

Do you include this argument?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

If you throw out "because God said so" as a basis for believing something, all you have left to replace it with is "because I say so".

171 Qwinn: It is a leftist meme that the pro-life position can generally only be arrived at from a religious perspective, and I'm betting you buy fully into that meme.  You also appear to have totally bought into the leftist propaganda that completely twists the establishment clause inside-out to mean something it was clearly never meant to mean.

And you would be wrong.  I have arrived at the pro-life position without invoking God once.  The leftists are wrong, but that's because they are marginal thinkers, and presume everyone else to be as well.

The Establisment clause means what it means.  If you intend to use the government to explicitly support a specific sect's political and social goals, then you are violating it.  If you intend to make the public schools teach creationism in science class, you are violating it.  These are the evangelicals of which I speak.

flenser: brian, you are the distilled essence of stupidity. The fucking declaration of Independence contains arguments that boil down to "Because God said so".   Every single discussion we have here boils down to some such variant at the end, because all "first principles" are held as a matter of faith. That includes your own.

Wow.  I've managed to piss everyone off just by poking at the Hucakbee Wannabees.  "We hold these truths to be self-evident".  That says that they are true even in the absence of a creator.  Here, God is an abstract.  To Huckabee and his followers, he's a close, personal friend with whom nightly conversations are had over drinks.

oLD gUY: Please make sure you understand what words mean before you use them in debate.

Near as I can tell, evangelicals are driven to convert people to their faith in order to save themselves and everyone else.  I don't need to be saved, thanks.

172 The ammo box is not for shooting our way out of this one.  The ammo box is for dealing with the collapse that looks inevitable.

Have you ever paused to think of how thin the veneer of civilization really is?  What is the threshold in terms of 9-1-1 calls per hour that your local emergency services can handle with adequate response? 

Progressivism has demolished American community by fomenting class warfare and race hatred to reap as democrat votes at the polls.

I have always paid my mortgage on time.

I have always paid my taxes in full.

I have worked my entire adult life.

I have been covered by health insurance my entire life.

I have never driven a car without being covered by insurance.

I have been saving for my own retirement.

I am not a felon.

I respect other people's rights and property.

All of this means nothing because Julio, who bathes in the sink at McDonald's, can cast his vote for Obama thinking that Obama will make him Queen for a Day.  And some lady can get on camera and tell the world how her rent payment and gasoline bills are going to go away because she's casting her vote for Obama.

I've already been doing what I am supposed to do, and the rest of what I have to show for it is going to be taken from me and given to these parasites who have already been living large on my dime.

I am about the last person in the world to start shit because civilization as I've been enjoying it has a lot going for it that I will not willingly subvert, but if the shit hits the fan, these motherfuckers are too damned heavy and decidedly not my brothers.  My us/them line is drawn pretty damned close to me, and the ammo box is there for me to enforce that boundary.

173 Hate to say it, but we brought a lot of this on ourselves. Compassionate conservatism was a blueprint for government growing faster than the economy. It makes a lot of the Republican protest of the current monstrosity ring hollow. Where were conservatives (a lot of those in power) on the housing issue? They wanted to increase the rate of home ownership among people that could not possibly pay. Where have they been on Social Security and entitlement reform? The dipped a toe in and ran off.

We're pissed that this will lead to higher taxes. Yeah, but paying back stimulus and TARP is a small portion of the sum of taxes paid over a person's lifetime. The outrage should be over the fact that the average worker hands over hundreds of thousands of dollars to the government in his lifetime. Some even after they die. Government has grown massively on the watch of the Republicans were so hungry for a "big-tent" majority, bought and paid for with free shit for everyone. We scream about the current death blow, but we didn't do much during the slow bleed-out.

Looking for a silver lining... we will have reform in the coming years. It will be a painful process for many. Stupid ideas that generate nothing of value will have to be cast aside. The greens are toast. Social Security will be reformed because there is no choice. Young people will eventually pay attention to reality when the government is taking more and more of their disposable income, as surely the first round of SS reform will simply be to take more from the young. People will actually be required to put 20% down on their house purchase (the horror!). Flocking to mythical candidates of hope and change and maverickness will be a thing of the past.

All the talk of shooting and revolution is misplaced. Most who talk of it would get wasted by local law enforcement, and the feds would eventually find the rest hiding in the woods. For all our present day stupidity, this nation has an enormous amount of productive capacity. I think this nation can move from what is stupid to what is productive, no bloody revolution necessary. Republicans didn't want to talk about fiscal discipline when times are good. I sincerely hope they can find the strength to do so now that times are bad, because there is a market for such an idea and because reality demands it.

174 Near as I can tell, evangelicals are driven to convert people to their faith in order to save themselves and everyone else.

I do not need to save others in order to be saved, it is a gift freely given.  Your arguments show a confused muddle between opinion, fact, and the very definition of words.  That is why you are being scourged on this post.  I think you probably had something you wanted to say, got carried away and now you're stuck up this tree and afraid to climb down.  I might be wrong, guessing other people's motivation is always hazardous.  If I am, my apologies.

This thread shows why politics and religion is such a volatile mix.  Perhaps we should part friends and just end this thread.

175 flenser: Conservatism did not leave you because you were never a conservative to begin with. If explicitly religious people cannot be conservative then you've just booted almost the entire body of people who founded the movement in the first place, from Burke to Kirk to Buckely.

I didn't say that.  I really wish you'd argue with me, and not with some straw-brian of your own creation.

I said people who wish to see their religion's edicts enforced by the state (that would be the evangelical liberals I referenced before, with their own little nanny-state provisions on how I ought to arrange my life) do not belong in the Republican party, and are not conservative.

When someone who calls himself a Conservative tells me that I have to eschew the AoS Lifestyle because God said so, and he proposes legislation to make the necessary components of that lifestyle illegal (porn, video games, booze), then he is no conservative.  He is a religious liberal.  He's simply making the claim that because he believes in God, he is a conservative, because the left-liberals are all Godless heathen.

God is not a required component of conservatism.  Nor is belief in God a reliable indicator of conservatism.  God and conservatism are orthogonal.

176 oLD gUY: I do not need to save others in order to be saved, it is a gift freely given.

You're also not Mike Huckabee.  You might call yourself evangelical, but you aren't really evangelizing, are you?  You aren't out there trying to convert the heathen like Huckabee is.

Therefore you aren't the one I'm talking about.  If I've used an insufficiently accurate or precise definition, I apologize.  Perhaps you could provide me with a better one.  Other than "evangelical" (which is the word thrown around by the Republican party leaders as a vote they need to court) the only term I can come up with that is useful is "Religious Liberal".

What I am arguing against here, first and foremost, is the idea that a belief in God necessarily makes one a conservative.  It does not.

177 33 Geez, they've only controlled Congress since Jan 2007 and look at the trend!

Since Article I of the Constitution enumerates who can introduce spending bills, I added a little more info to the graph here.

178 Bunny Boy,

It ain't my side that's going to start a revolution.

179 If you intend to use the government to explicitly support a specific sect's political and social goals, then you are violating it.  If you intend to make the public schools teach creationism in science class, you are violating it.  These are the evangelicals of which I speak.

Brian, do you know what the first official act of Congress was, after the Constitution was enacted, in 1787?

Qwinn

180

MikeO,

I don't think the other side is capable. Julio and friends would shoot their own dicks off. But in the spirit of full disclosure, I admit I'm a recent convert to the "ammo box" investment portfolio. One, because it is outperforming most of the others. And two, just in case my optimism of the citizenry is misplaced.

181 "Religious Liberal" would be a better choice, unfortunately it has already be defined to mean something else in Christian circles.

You aren't out there trying to convert the heathen like Huckabee is.

You misunderstand my statement.  "I don't need to" is not the same as "I don't want to".  I just think that coercion through the government is the wrong way to do it.  If it is not freely accepted, then it is not a true faith.

182

"A Republican party that added more than $30 trillion to the future debt in a time of boom has no credible answer but raw partisanship for opposing $800 billion in the swiftest downturn in employment since the Great Depression. That's the bottom line."

Andrew "The Conservative Soul" Sullivan. 

What 30 Trillion dollars is Sullivan talking about?  Where did he pull that number from?  Id did not care for increases of spendging under Bush and agree the GOP should have done more, but I must have missed the 30 trillion in future debt. 

183 Ok, more precisely, you aren't advocating that government convert the heathen like Huckabee is.  I mean the man came right out and said it.  "I think we need to look at bringing the Constitution more in line with God's values".

Who the fuck does he think he is?

You are not the man that I am arguing needs to be kicked out of the party, at least not based on religion.  You might try to convince me of the truth of your faith, but I am free to reject it, and neither of us will hold a grudge.  The Huckabees want government to make me behave in a way that their particular interpretation of Heavenly Order dictates.

184 Joe - I think he means the money that George Bush spent on Proposition 8.

Andi is insane.  He doesn't live in the same world as the rest of us.

185

Good gravy, was there a full moon last night in Crazyville or something?

Who are you people, and what have you done with Ace's Morons?

 

I liked Huckabee, BTW.  Mostly because he wanted the Fair Tax Act.  Personally, I am pro-life.  Politically, I am pro-Federal-government-minding-its-own-business.  Politically, I am pro-life in the sense that I do not want to see liberals force the entire country to be pro-choice.  But mostly, I was for the Fiar Tax Act.  Simplify the tax codes.  Put all those IRS employees into better, more fufilling jobs.  Remove anyone's reason to ever complain about how their tax burden is more unfair than anyone elses'.  Sign me up!

186 30 trillion? I think that's someone's estimate for how much Bush's programs like prescription drug will raise liabilities, over many decades. Of course, if he were honest, he'd tell us the Dems supported such programs. He'd also tell us that the 800 billion is lowballing the figure, and that it assumes that it will not be part of the new budget baseline. And if he were really, really honest, he'd acknowledge the multitude of legitimate reasons for opposing the stimulus.

But he's not honest. Probably not sane either. He's a piece of shit who gained fame by claiming to be conservative, Catholic, and gay all at once. It was all bullshit (other than the gay part), but the schtick was so irresistibly transgressive to many people.

187 The Fair Tax is a rip-off. What you want is a low flat tax.

188 No, what I want is a repeal of the 16th amendment and a removal of all direct federal taxation of individuals.

Then at the state level, I want a removal of income taxes and a simple, flat no-nonsense consumption tax.  On everything.

And if the government can't function on, say 10% of GDP, then it's trying to do too much.

189 What 30 Trillion dollars is Sullivan talking about?  Where did he pull that number from?

No place I want to know about.

190

http://tinyurl.com/cwxqlh

^^I blogged it several days ago. 

It's over.  Our kids and grand kids were already facing a completely untenable situation with the 75-year shortfalls in Social Security, Medicare, and the Prescription Drug Plan. Now this. Breaks the camel's back.

They have won - destroyed America - economic distress eventually turns into social unrest and eventually political upset.

We have run out of taxpayers to pay this bill. The baby boomers are retiring - and soon we will have less than 2 taxpayers to support each Social Security recipient. It's not enough.

Add to that the fact that we WILL have another 9-11 style attack. That is going to rock our already shaky financial situation. The likely answer to that will be MORE federal spending to prop up our economic infrastructure.

"Smoke 'em if you got 'em?".  It's the only recommendation I have because we are completely screwed now.

191

God and conservatism are orthogonal.

You keep insisting that you're fine with people like Buckley, and then you throw out lines like "God and conservatism are orthogonal".

If we're confused about what you believe, maybe its because you are too.

 

What happened was the religious liberals (those who, like Huckabee, wish to see God's will enshrined in our founding documents) were kicked out of the Democratic party, and the Republicans, ever the opportunists, welcomed them with open arms

The Founders thought they were enshrining Gods will in our founding documents! Your beef is with America as it was initially conceived.

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident".  That says that they are true even in the absence of a creator. 

How about you attempt to back up some of your claims here with facts and reason? For instance, how exactly is it "self-evident' that all men are entitled to certain inalienable rights such as life and liberty, in the absence of any Creator?

You want the Founders conclusions but not their premises. Then show me that you can arrive at their conclusions absent their premises.

192 I'm not exactly feeling all Pollyanna, but this is also not an apocalyptic nightmare - yet.  Most of the stuff in the porkulus isn't even going to take place until 2010.  Which means if we can get some sane people in Congress in 2010, they can undo the worst of it.  In the meantime, my family is going on strike, Atlas Shrugged style... I'm making it my mission in life to reduce my tax receipts by half as soon as the porkulus passes and starts to take effect.

The more malaise and financial trouble we can have in the next 18 months, the better; give the common people what they want, good and hard.  With the Dems in charge of the entire government, they're not going to have an easy time shifting blame for it.  And next election, people will be inclined to throw the bums out. 

193 flenser: The Founders thought they were enshrining Gods will in our founding documents! Your beef is with America as it was initially conceived.

Your kung-fu is weak.  Read the Federalist papers.  They thought no such thing.  That people like you believe they were is part of the problem that led to the Huckabee Syndrome.

flenser: You want the Founders conclusions but not their premises. Then show me that you can arrive at their conclusions absent their premises.

Dude.  I'm the stupid one?  The only reason it was written that way is because historically, rights were dependent upon the whims of kings.

In order to make a break from that, it needed to be stated that individual liberty is a right that inherent in the human by birth, not something bestowed upon him by a government.

Their conclusions were stated in simple, elegant language.  Man is free as a consequence of his birth.  His freedom is not contingent upon the whim of a self-appointed leader.  His freedom is not subject to the arbitrary rule of a judge.  It is his birth right.

The insertion of the word "God" into the preamble of the Declaration of Independence is hardly a call that religiosity be a requirement for loyalty to the nation.

Show me evidence that Buckley thought that the job of government was to enforce the laws of God.  You can not, and will not, because he did not.  Buckley's personal faith may have led him to certain conclusions, but faith is not a requirement of those conclusions.

194 brian:

The first act of Congress (after instituting Congressional Chaplains) was to fund the purchase of a crapload of Bibles to disburse to the Indians.

How exactly do you reconcile that with your view of the Founder's intent that government should never, ever, ever, ever do anything like that?

Qwinn

195

Unfortunately - I'm not a very religious person - but I will certainly ally with religious conservatives - and I'll help them teach creationism and pray in schools because ...

Well ... I've figured out that EVERYONE is religious. Some people believe in a caring God, others a frightful God. Some believe in Messiah's from Chicago who hang out with terrorists and racist preachers. Some believe in the Global Warming God.

But everyone believes in something - and by my reckoning - the ones who believe in GOD are the most sane.

196 Laura: "Most of the stuff in the porkulus isn't even going to take place until 2010.  Which means if we can get some sane people in Congress in 2010, they can undo the worst of it."

I wish I had your faith. Turning back a law, especially one where massive government outlays have been committed, is like trying to single-handedly stop a freight train while standing on the tracks. Plus, I'm not yet convinced that we can get enough sane people in Congress. For all of the hemming and hawing about government spendthrifts, the collective we continues to reward waste as long as our spendthrift keeps it flowing locally. It's in their mission statement as Job One and greased by lobbyists.

Have we reached a tipping point? I'll believe it when I see it. The Right seems pretty content to spend hundreds of billions of dollars, and while their concept of reasonable "stimulus" is hundreds of billions less than the Democrats, we're still talking hundreds of billions of dollars thrown around that we don't have at programs that won't work at a rate that escapes public scrutiny. As I echo my internal Howard Beale: Hell, those turning bills into laws don't even know what the fuck they're voting for. It's an absolute scandal.

I'm having a hard time believing the American public has the backbone to stop this runaway train and an easier time believing that we'll need to be plastered before we wake from our stupor. The question will remain is there enough of a corpse left to walk away from the wreck.

197 Qwinn -

So that justifies letting Huckabee rewrite the Constitution how?  That justifies calling a nanny-state Evangelical a conservative how?

If the Republican party is ever going to be politically viable, it needs to go back to conservative principles.  Those do not involve using government to dictate terms on how life is to be lived - whether the terms come from someone's interpretation of Das Kapital, or their interpretation of the Bible.

198 I'm echoing my internal Howard Roark and blowing it up - insofar as I'm making sure I stop paying taxes.  :-)  Of all taxpayers, which is itself a much smaller number than the 300 million or so who live here - only 40% are net contributors to the federal government.  The bottom 60% do pay taxes, but they take out more in benefits than they put in.  (This is as of a couple of years ago, the ratio may have tilted even further since then.)  You get enough of that 40% to stop or slow their work and quit supporting the 60%, and we'll find your tipping point. 

When we start re-living the Carter years - gas lines, etc. - I think people will demand, and pols will find, a way to stop the train.  But even if that doesn't happen, I'm still not paying for it.  Since I don't have a Galt's Gulch to go hide in, I'm snuggling right into that sweet spot where I'm not supporting other people, and not taking out more than I'm putting in.  Honestly, it kind of reminds me of the work slowdowns by slaves until the Civil War.  If we have another realistic form of protest, I don't see it. 

199 To put it in moron terms:

Whether someone wants to ban porno because it oppresses women, because it causes tendinitis, or because it makes the baby Jesus cry is irrelevant.

The fact that they want to ban porno makes them a liberal.

You may be uncomfortable with this recasting of your definitions.  That's fine.  How about I propose new ones for you.

Constitutionalist: One who understands that the government's function and power are strictly limited by the text of the Constitution, and that the Ninth and Tenth amendments and the Commerce clause mean what they say and nothing more.

Statist:  One who believes that the government has an obligation to protect citizens from themselves and charge them for the privilege.

The Republicans need to publicly expel the statists in their party, and make it perfectly clear that their ultimate goal is the removal of the federal government from meddling in the private affairs of citizens.

This cannot be done so long as we have people obsessed with saving Americans from Eternal Hellfire in the Republican party.

200 "So that justifies letting Huckabee rewrite the Constitution how?  That justifies calling a nanny-state Evangelical a conservative how?"

Um, you missed the point.  I am -certain- from your rhetoric that you would consider Huckabee wanting to use the government to purchase bibles to give to some heathens (or students) to be "rewriting the cosntitution".  The point is that it wouldn't be, because in the very first congress after writing the damn thing, they did precisely that.  I pointed it out because it blows a wide gaping hole in the claim that the Establishment Clause was ever intended to mean what your entire premise requires it to mean.

I don't favor using tax monies for that purpose, but neither do I think it would run counter to the Framer's intent.  I think there's -tons- of evidence that the Framer's intent was quite different, and the entire opposing argument relies on a misrepresented quote that Jefferson sent to a church group that was actually a promise that the government wouldn't attempt to dictate to a religion, not the other way around.

And I think every constitutional interpretation that considers pornography to be protected under the first amendment to be utterly, completely absurd.  A proper constitutional interpretation would be that the -states- most certainly have the right to ban it if they wish, though the federal government does not.

Doesn't mean I want it to be banned, or think that it's a good idea.  That's beside the point.  My point in raising that is not that I disagree with Huckabee, it's that what he has wanted ain't unconstitutional (except possibly in regards to federalism... if he's asking the federal government to do it when it's properly a state issue, that could be a legitimate bitch, but it doesn't sound to me like that's what bothers you.)

And, by the way, do you think prostitution being illegal is also unconstitutional?  Cause if so, then how can you think -that's- okay to regulate, but people screwing on film for pay is okay.  You can't sleep with someone for money, unless you're doing it in front of a camera?  How screwed up is -that- logic?

Qwinn

201 Qwinn - There is a difference between buying bibles and enacting religious ideals in law.  Not much, mind you.  But there are plenty of times when the Congress does things that are wrong.  If what you say is true, it was wrong.  Period.  I can find no place in the Constitution where the federal government is empowered to convert the heathen.

As to your final point, it all comes down to who owns what.  Do I own me?  Does the government own me?  Does God?  How you answer the question "Who owns me?" is going to color how you view a whole raft of issues.

If I own me, then I ought to be able to do anything to me I like such that it does not cause injury to anyone else.  At the point it injures someone else, then I ought to be held to account.

If I don't own me, then whomever does gets to make the decisions about how I put myself to use.  I think we can agree that this is repugnant.

202 Thanks for the correction, I knew I was getting his name wrong.

1)  So if it's not 100% accurate, then we dismiss the whole thing?  You tell me - how accurate would you say that list is?  You've found 3 objections out of 45.
The Wikipedia article on Skousen links to his list of 45 assertions. My fellow morons can judge for themselves how accurate Skousen was. Some of his claims refer to things that had already happened or were happening at the time, so they weren't predictions at all. At least a third of his predictions seem to me to be flat-out wrong. Some of his predictions came true, but it wasn't necessarily the communists who were to blame. It looks as though Skousen objected to many things whose main proponents were liberals or socialists, not communists.

203

You're also not Mike Huckabee. You might call yourself evangelical, but you aren't really evangelizing, are you?

As long as religious people aren't using the force of government to evangelize, what do you care? The First Amendment doesn't say that people can't argue for their religious beliefs. They just can't use the State for that purpose. It's coming across that you really despise and fear this "straw-Christian" you've set up more than that you have a real complaint.

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205 On the other hand, Skousen did predict the infamous "lace-wig" movement.

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I am from Australia and also now am reading in English, give true I wrote the following sentence: "hot to apply provillus."

Thanks for the help :-(, Massimo.

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