Obama Comes Out Against "Buy American" Provision In So Called "Stimulus" Bill

Obama may not have been able to heal the world in his first two weeks but at least he is trying not to make any new enemies. Diplomacy in action!

The European Union warned the US yesterday against plunging the world into depression by adopting a planned “Buy American” policy, intensifying fears of a trade war.
The EU threatened to retaliate if the US Congress went ahead with sweeping measures in its $800 billion (Ł554 billion) stimulus plan to restrict spending to American goods and services.
...Last night Mr Obama gave a strong signal that he would remove the most provocative passages from the Bill.
“I agree that we can’t send a protectionist message,” he said in an interview with Fox TV. “I want to see what kind of language we can work on this issue. I think it would be a mistake, though, at a time when worldwide trade is declining, for us to start sending a message that somehow we’re just looking after ourselves and not concerned with world trade.”

He'll still have to talk the House Democrats down but at least he's on the right side of this. I know the whole 'buy America' with American tax money is emotionally appealing but erecting trade barriers and igniting a trade war would be disastrous. Good for Obama for recognizing this.

Now, about that Colombia Free Trade Agreement.

Posted by: DrewM. at 10:00 PM

Comments

1
I'm not worried about igniting a trade war.

The trade deficit has reached a treasonous level, and we've outsourced far too many American jobs. The only good thing in that shit sandwich was the Buy American clause.

Free trade and globalization is killing us. I don't understand why Conservatives don't understand this.

Posted by: Darling at February 03, 2009 10:04 PM (MJoDX)

2 Darling, I sure hope that was satire. Because if not, here's your sign.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 03, 2009 10:06 PM (ZylhF)

3
The Buy American thing was there to create jobs. Without that, this bill will create 0 jobs.

Shame on Obama. And shame on the unions if they don't crucify Obama for being a hypocritical pussy.

Posted by: Darling at February 03, 2009 10:07 PM (MJoDX)

4 Yeah, some good ol' tariffs and protectionism that'll be the complete FDR package for replaying the '30s.

Posted by: rockhead at February 03, 2009 10:07 PM (DvaIL)

5 "...he would remove the most provocative passage from the bill."

Uh, he does know that he doesn't get to alter the language of legislation, right? I'm told he once read the Constitution or something.

Posted by: Methos at February 03, 2009 10:08 PM (LqLye)

6 In my entire lifetime, I have never seen a presidency implode as quickly as this one has.

Posted by: DesertSage at February 03, 2009 10:08 PM (Cec/j)

7 The deuce you say!!

Posted by: Senator Reed Smoot, R-Utah at February 03, 2009 10:08 PM (eiOZw)

8 The Buy American thing was there to create jobs.

No, it was there to pander to unions and owners of uncompetative businesses.

Perhaps you think paying more for products while hampering the ability of Americans to sell their goods in other countries is a good thing, enjoy. Clearly though, history is not on your side.

Posted by: DrewM. at February 03, 2009 10:10 PM (hlYel)

9 Now we know what the "change" part of Hope and Change was about.

Posted by: Reiver at February 03, 2009 10:10 PM (HFT94)

10 Darling, unions have priced themselves out of competition and now want their competitors penalized with tariffs. The obvious problem, except to dolts such as Obama and his parade of brain dead sycophants, is that other nations will retaliate in kind. My only objection to unfettered free trade is that American workers cannot compete against slave labor in the third world and China.

Posted by: The Great Satan™ at February 03, 2009 10:10 PM (8zZS3)

11 So, he was rushing this bill through, but even HE now thinks there's shit in it...?

Posted by: nickless at February 03, 2009 10:12 PM (MMC8r)

12
Free trade only works when it's a two-way street. We're getting fucked in the deal. The only ones making out on this free trade farce are the very wealthy. The middle-class is getting squeezed and the Republicans are too stupid to realize that free trade is creating a two-class class system in America. The only thing we're importing is cheap labor, thus increasing the lower class.

Now we have a fool socialist in the White House who is trying to create a single-class class system and will send us into ruins. Thank you, George Bush and Bill Clinton.

Posted by: Darling at February 03, 2009 10:13 PM (MJoDX)

13 Remember... Obama was for buying American before he was against it.

Posted by: shibumi at February 03, 2009 10:13 PM (tZB/c)

14 My only objection to unfettered free trade is that American workers cannot compete against slave labor in the third world and China.

Perhaps on items we don't want to make here anymore, but everyone including our economic genius, Darling, should realize that even with the trade deficit, American exports are the eighth-largest economy in the world. Protectionism is idiotic and counterproductive. Want to fix the trade deficit? Get real about the oil jones. Otherwise, this entire enterprise is the worst kind of Washington window dressing.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 03, 2009 10:14 PM (ZylhF)

15 Proponents insist that these provisions already exist in U.S. law and simply echo a 1982 policy that requires federal transportation spending to purchase of U.S.-made iron, steel and manufactured goods.

Opponents warn that these terms in the stimulus legislation may violate international trade treaties and present an affront to nations already reeling from entanglement in America's financial-market meltdown.

Both are right.

Posted by: sickinmass at February 03, 2009 10:16 PM (/i4dU)

-----Get real about the oil jones. Otherwise, this entire enterprise is the worst kind of Washington window dressing.------

And hang the lawyers.

Posted by: The Great Satan™ at February 03, 2009 10:17 PM (8zZS3)

17 Where's the preview button?

Posted by: DesertSage at February 03, 2009 10:17 PM (Cec/j)

18 > Free trade only works when it's a two-way street.

Actually it works just fine if it's one way. If some country wants to impoverish itself by subsidizing an industry so it makes stuff and sells it to me at below cost, great!

Ref Obama. He may be wrong a lot but at least he's flexible enough to change his mind quickly before severe damage is done.

This admin could be a lot of fun. Like an episode of "World's Worst Drivers" or something.

Posted by: Arthur at February 03, 2009 10:18 PM (V4Hp+)

19 The protectionist policies of America and subsequently other countries in the 30's could be seen to lead to World World 2. Among other things that is, and that's not even mentioning the prolonging of the Great Depression. But I do like how this bill is being killed by a thousand cuts.

Posted by: Alex at February 03, 2009 10:18 PM (2hcV2)

20 And hang the lawyers.

I'd start with chair tossing at Fred Barnes face, but that is a matter of tactics and not strategy.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 03, 2009 10:18 PM (ZylhF)

21 If I'm gonna post here I really have to figure out how things work.

Posted by: DesertSage at February 03, 2009 10:19 PM (Cec/j)

22 Gee, if there were only some way to ensure that Americans got most of the benefit from this stimulus thing.....some way to make sure that illegal immigrants, foreign corporations, and all sorts of others who don't pay American taxes don't get the goodies paid for by American taxpayers.....

Something like.......oh, I don't know......tax cuts?

Posted by: cthulhu at February 03, 2009 10:19 PM (Kxfhj)

23 > 17 Where's the preview button?

Posted by: DesertSage

This is a ~~moronblog~~ smart milblog. We don't need no stinkin' preview button!

Posted by: Arthur at February 03, 2009 10:19 PM (V4Hp+)

24 At this rate Barry will be calling Larry Kudlow a commie in about a month.

The 52% sure picked a real winner.

Posted by: eman at February 03, 2009 10:20 PM (ZsOIJ)

25 Thank you, George Bush and Bill Clinton.

Yes because those 16 years of American history will be looked upon as the Dark Years.

The idea that some how workers in the most advanced country in the world should or would want to be price competitive with unskilled labor is patently ridiculous.

Do you know how much more just about everything would cost if it were Made in the USA? I don't have the exact figure at hand but it's about...Way fucking more than you want to or could pay (I'm rounding off here).

Oh and what happens to all the people export stuff when they can't sell anything abroad?

Posted by: DrewM. at February 03, 2009 10:20 PM (hlYel)

26 Okay, Arthur......but how do I quote someone?

Posted by: DesertSage at February 03, 2009 10:21 PM (Cec/j)

This is like watching a drunk trucker swerving back and forth around the highway. He hasn't crashed yet, but you know it's not going to end well for anybody involved.

Posted by: bandit at February 03, 2009 10:22 PM (RsaX9)

28
Please tell me who benefited the most from Home Depot peddling all that Chinese shit in their stores. Now, I know you're going to tell me that the consumer, e.g., the contractor, the homeowner, saved a few bucks by shopping at Home Depot which helped keep some money in their pockets.

True, but in the long haul, the real winners are Arthur Blank and the ChiComs. Wooohooo!, I just saved a dollar by buying a cheap Chinese screwdriver at Home Depot. How many American manufacturing jobs disappeared because I wanted to save a buck?

Posted by: Darling at February 03, 2009 10:22 PM (MJoDX)

29 I agree that protectionism is bad. The idea the stimulus money might go overseas, though... is just one more argument against the stimulus.

Posted by: CoolCzech at February 03, 2009 10:23 PM (iafWn)

30 EU to Barry "we love you, but not THAT much"

He's going to have to pony up some flowers and candy for the union hacks over this broken promise. Since it's our cash, no problem. Just slip it into the Shit Sandwich with some high sounding name.

Posted by: kbdabear at February 03, 2009 10:23 PM (miw86)

31 In today's interconnected .. and badly bruised .. world, the perception of rising protectionism in Washington may be as important as a reality that suggests otherwise.
A number of economic stimulus programs are being forged in capitals around the world .. from Beijing and London to Brasilia and Canberra ..that could launch a new wave of what some will call protectionism, others self preservation. If they emulate the U.S. "Buy American" national favoritism, not only will U.S. firms miss opportunities to sell to them, but the pattern of closing off commerce to non-nationals could expand. Drew is correct.

Posted by: sickinmass at February 03, 2009 10:25 PM (/i4dU)

32
Yes because those 16 years of American history will be looked upon as the Dark Years.

They'll be looked at as the beginning of the end.

Posted by: Darling at February 03, 2009 10:26 PM (MJoDX)

33 Buy American...Great idea!!!! Do what we can to make sure the money actually helps us locally.

But SHITTY policy, for exactly the reason we see here.

We COULD make it an under-the-table, unoffical policy of preferring US made items. Nothing on paper mind you, just word of mouth. Stuff like "Sorry, got a better deal at Bethlehem" and such.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at February 03, 2009 10:27 PM (1Mn8Z)

34 >>saved a few bucks by shopping at Home Depot which helped keep some money in their pockets.
Most of the stuff at Home Depot is 'seconds', so your not really saving much.
Kinda like shopping along 14th st. in Manhatten

Posted by: sickinmass at February 03, 2009 10:28 PM (/i4dU)

35
Everybody said this guy was the Messiah. So far, everything he touches turns to shit.

Some messiah...

Posted by: George Bush is looking pretty good about now at February 03, 2009 10:30 PM (uf3vn)

36 Please don't start a trade war. We just had a Costco open near my home in Taiwan, and I am enjoying the made in USA products...like towels (much better than those made in China) and blueberries (mmmmm.) I also enjoy made in USA Aquafresh toothpaste and flying in Boeings. Did I forget Almond Roca, too? I also like the F-16s that fly around protecting me from China.

As countries get richer they start to enjoy the good shit America makes, and we do make a lot of stuff. We could make even more without unions and if we had a VAT tax that exempts exports, but that's asking a lot.

I do think we should be very tough on opening markets though - my pet peeve is frickin' Korea - where our boys died, where our aid built, where our open markets made them rich, and they sit around and protest buying some California rice. OMG!

Posted by: Harun at February 03, 2009 10:31 PM (GFpBr)

37 At least Obama doesn't want us to buy Arab.

Posted by: ricky at February 03, 2009 10:32 PM (muUqs)

38 > 26 Okay, Arthur......but how do I quote someone?

Posted by: DesertSage

Like this!

You cut and paste the text into the Comments: box then slip some HTML tags like and for open and close italics and you're done.

Now I hit post and wonder what the hell is going to appear ...

Posted by: Arthur at February 03, 2009 10:34 PM (V4Hp+)

39 We should remember that it is good for Americans that others get rich, too. Anti-free trade arguments are similar to anti-Capitalism arguments; they both presume that wealth is a fixed quantity and distribution is the key to understanding and policy.
Not so. Wealth grows (and shrinks). It key characteristic is that it is not invariant.

In economics, it is foolish and harmful to protect anything that cannot protect itself.

Posted by: eman at February 03, 2009 10:34 PM (ZsOIJ)

40 I hear you, Harun.
The Buy America provision is starting small, but of course our whole financial crisis started small, with subprime (mortgages). You've got the same thing in the trade area ..you can start small, but it is a license to every country to protect its domestic industries.
Indeed, that's the pattern of history in the missteps that helped bring about the Great Depression. Congress passed the Smoot-Hawley Act in 1930, raising to record levels the tariffs on more than 20,000 imported goods.

Posted by: sickinmass at February 03, 2009 10:34 PM (/i4dU)

41 Ahh, it worked.
Of course, you hcave to get rid of those extra spaces for the tags to work.

b and s (along with /b and /s) work for boldface and strikethough.

Posted by: Arthur at February 03, 2009 10:35 PM (V4Hp+)

42 33 Jeff are you French?

Posted by: Jean at February 03, 2009 10:36 PM (xCBQ4)

43 Darling, Hugo Chavez called--he wants you in his cabinet.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 03, 2009 10:38 PM (ZylhF)

44 I just saved a dollar by buying a cheap Chinese screwdriver at Home Depot. How many American manufacturing jobs disappeared because I wanted to save a buck?

...and if that screwdriver is now in the US, wouldn't it be true that it would be used by a US worker or homeowner to be productive here in the US, rather than over in China?

So, how many manufacturing jobs make a screwdriver v. how many manufacturing jobs use a screwdriver?

Posted by: cthulhu at February 03, 2009 10:38 PM (Kxfhj)

45 >>33..We COULD make it an under-the-table, unoffical policy of preferring US made items.
Been doing that for years.

Posted by: sickinmass at February 03, 2009 10:41 PM (/i4dU)

46 European nations responded in kind. The tit-for-tat nationalistic trade war brought a plunge in commerce between nations, and rising hardship fed nationalistic tensions that eventually erupted into War World II.
Many U.S. trading partners will be judging the final shape of America's stimulus legislation as a measure of President Barack Obama's worldview.
If Buy America becomes part of the stimulus legislation, the United States will lose the moral authority to pressure others not to introduce protectionist policies

Posted by: sickinmass at February 03, 2009 10:43 PM (/i4dU)

47 I wish he would make a good fundamental decision & stick with it.

Posted by: '80sBaby at February 03, 2009 10:43 PM (CBgRq)

48 Let me guess , Darling is a union member .
Real tradesmen don't buy Chinese screwdrivers . Housewives , yes , craftsmen no. Look , I'm a carpenter . I own hundreds of tools . I can count on one hand the ones that were made in China including small hand tools like nail sets and combination squares. No one is making anyone buy Chinese but if price is your only metric , well, have at it.

Posted by: aubrey at February 03, 2009 10:45 PM (h9TJd)

Can't be dictator of the world if the rest of the world is pissed at him, now can he?

Posted by: yup! at February 03, 2009 10:46 PM (hphNR)

Take a walk in midtown Manhattan some Saturday and watch poor democrats by the thousands buying cheap stuff they can afford made in China and other sweat shops, mostly clothes. The Chinese use the money to fund our profligate behaviour by purchasing our soon to be worthless treasury bonds. Not a bad trade. Without free trade stuff gets made poorly as competition wanes. Japan saved the American car industry for awhile by forcing it to provide better products. The Chevys I bought in the 1970s were junk made by over paid people who didn't give a shit because their jobs were bullet proof. Those same people are now retired and still sucking the life out of the American car industry as pensioners. If Obama wants to avoid trade problems he should talk to his Mensa reject "lunch box democrat" VP who is acting like he is not afraid of a trade war.

Posted by: mytralman at February 03, 2009 10:47 PM (26p91)

51 And hang the lawyers.

HEY!

Posted by: alexthechick at February 03, 2009 10:47 PM (NuqWW)

52 That don't make no sense. IF the screwdriver's a cheap pos, it's in the garbage, and nobody is using it. So, buy another cheap pos --- rinse and repeat until China's rich. Build good screwdrivers in the U.S. - they last and we keep the manufacturing job too. Win/win.

Posted by: Annie at February 03, 2009 10:48 PM (g+A6A)

53 Darling,

You just could not be more wrong. Seriously. One of the founding principles of the United States was a rejection of mercantilism and protectionist trade policy. FDR just proved the founders right. He was a nightmare of an afterthought, but afterthought he was.

We as a nation have never gone wrong with free trade. Our immigration policy needs work. Don't confuse the two.

And yes, the middle class, hell, the lower class has an incredible standard of living matched by no other country, EVER, in large part because of free trade.

Posted by: Lana at February 03, 2009 10:48 PM (Nf4XK)

54 #48....Amen brother.

Posted by: MarieOsmond at February 03, 2009 10:49 PM (tb//D)

55 Barry not trying to make new enemies?

India has warned US President Barack Obama that he risks “barking up the wrong tree” if he seeks to broker a settlement between Pakistan and India over the disputed territory of Kashmir.

MK Narayanan, India’s national security advisor, said that the new US administration was in danger of dredging up out of date Clinton administration-era strategies in a bid to bring about improved ties between the two nuclear armed neighbours.

Give him time.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at February 03, 2009 10:50 PM (g6O3h)

56 Build American made missiles, rockets, bombs, nuclear warheads and then build American made fighter jets and then build plenty of American made naval ships that can launch American missiles and planes and then build lots of missiles that can shoot down anything that some depraved state/group might shoot at us. Pay for them all in US dollars bonds financed by foreign investors. Then let the world know if they get out of line and stop making the stuff we want to buy, we'll deal with them harshly and they will either fall in line or reenter the stone age..

Posted by: NortonPete at February 03, 2009 10:52 PM (fVuwW)

57 Also, as the previous commenter stated, Obama can't strip diddly from the bill so his statements, like the blather he fed House Republicans on the stimulus, is blather until proven otherwise. He likes to talk, don't he?

Welcome to the age of President Present! God help us all...

Posted by: Lana at February 03, 2009 10:52 PM (Nf4XK)

58 Complaints from Canada , China and Europe have all hinted at retaliation. However, proponents of the "Buy America" language in the stimulus legislation are correct in saying these provisions are nothing new.
The stimulus language is virtually identical to a number of U.S. laws, most notably the 2005 reauthorization of funding for highway programs. The highway bill language and the terms in the stimulus legislation are identical in restricting funds from use in projects "unless all of the iron, steel, and manufactured goods used in the project are produced in the United States ."
The new language is also identical in how waivers to the rules are granted ..by presidential decree, if materials are unavailable in the U.S. or if they would raise the cost by 25 percent or more.
The only substantive difference in the stimulus legislation as introduced is a requirement that the reasons for granting a waiver be published in the Federal Register .

So if this language just repeats existing law, what's the problem?
Hang all the lawyers!
Heh.

Posted by: sickinmass at February 03, 2009 10:53 PM (/i4dU)

59 #52..Amen sister.

Posted by: MarieOsmond at February 03, 2009 10:53 PM (tb//D)

60 53, Amen sister!

Posted by: XBradTC at February 03, 2009 10:56 PM (Xx+ca)

61 38 > Like this!

You cut and paste the text into the Comments: box then slip some HTML tags like and for open and close italics and you're done.

Now I hit post and wonder what the hell is going to appear ...

Posted by: Arthur

Hmmmm......okay, that seemed to work.

Posted by: DesertSage at February 03, 2009 10:57 PM (Cec/j)

62 Oh and the AP is working over time on the excuse machine for its messiah

WASHINGTON – Two weeks into his presidency, Barack Obama proved that even a clearly gifted politician cannot escape the gravitational pull of Washington forces that have humbled many of his predecessors.

The new president, seen by some as arrogant, was anything but on Tuesday.

It's not Barry's fault you see it's just the evil Washington culture.

The news media and political adversaries bored in.

The news media went after these stories? When? Where?

Posted by: TheQuietMan at February 03, 2009 10:58 PM (g6O3h)

63 Well, maybe not.

Where's the "edit" button?

Posted by: DesertSage at February 03, 2009 10:58 PM (Cec/j)

64 I believe the relevant quote is: "It's a trap!"

Posted by: ErikTheRed at February 03, 2009 10:58 PM (erlfI)

65 And hang the lawyers.

I'm in.

Posted by: Actual at February 03, 2009 10:59 PM (4TdoK)

66 ...even a clearly gifted politician...

If he's so clearly gifted, why does everything he touches turn to shit?

Posted by: XBradTC at February 03, 2009 11:00 PM (Xx+ca)

67 Darling,

You are so very very moronic. And not in the good way.

If you'll just start talking about a gold standard and typing "Ron Paul" the circle of life will be complete.

Posted by: Nom de Blog at February 03, 2009 11:01 PM (szcvf)

68 aubrey,

I started to make that point but felt it was wading into the trees. However, housewives don't need a quality screwdriver, tool, whatever. BUT THEY HAVE ONE if the occasional need arises. And that screwdriver is cheap. And what on earth is wrong with that? We don't all need the fancy stuff if the simple stuff will do well enough.

For those who need professional tools that hold up to every day wear, they are also available. The consumer should decide what is best for his situation and choose accordingly. Protectionists remove this choice.

Posted by: Lana at February 03, 2009 11:01 PM (Nf4XK)

69
Levi's are now made in Bangladesh. No more Levi's factories in the U.S.

Levi's still makes a handsome profit with their markup. A bunch of Bangladeshis are earning a few peanuts on which to live. The Bangladesh government is also turning a tidy profit.

Tell me how it is good for America that Levi's are now made in Bangladesh. Show me the upside of this deal with Bangladesh. You can't because by and large, free trade benefits the few and hurts the many.

I'm not peddling communism. I'm trying to explain simple economics -- the middle-class in America is shrinking and the bottom is eventually going to fall out.

Posted by: Darling at February 03, 2009 11:01 PM (MJoDX)

He'll still have to talk the House Democrats down but at least he's on the right side of this.

Drew, Obama wasn't on the "right side" of this until all of the foriegn newspapers came out today threatening a trade war. The buy American provision was in the original bill that Obama thanked the democrats for passing.

Posted by: robtr at February 03, 2009 11:04 PM (uJzOr)

71 Tell me how it is good for America that Levi's are now made in Bangladesh.

There is this thing called the law of comparative advantage. Google it. Read up. We'll wait.

Unrelated to that economic principle is the fact that I don't want my kids to work in a textile factory, genius.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 03, 2009 11:04 PM (ZylhF)

72 alexthechick,

I'm with you babe. We need a better rule. How about this one:

Hang all the lawyers who think they know how to do other people's jobs better than the people who do them.

Posted by: Nom de Blog at February 03, 2009 11:05 PM (szcvf)

73 >>If he's so clearly gifted, why does everything he touches turn to shit?
Because he's a punk ass bitch.

Posted by: sickinmass at February 03, 2009 11:05 PM (/i4dU)

74 Welcome to the "Mister Robinson's Neighborhood" school of trade relations.

Posted by: solitary knight at February 03, 2009 11:06 PM (SQfRw)

75 73, sickinmass,

I guess my complaint ain't with Barry on that, but rather AP. An accurate story would have said he was making some rookie mistakes, but remained very popular. But no, they insist on trying to carry his water.

Posted by: XBradTC at February 03, 2009 11:07 PM (Xx+ca)

76 Darling,

Feel the invisible hand at work, trust the invisible hand to make better economic decisions then politicians. If Americans want to pay for tools and jeans manufactured in America then they will.

Your Levi example: It's good for America because its good for Levi's stockholders, who I am sure out-number the displaced workforce and middle America can still afford to buy jeans and spend their remaining discretionary income on something else they want or need, as for the foreigners - they get a few peanuts, before the factory they didn't even get that.

Posted by: Jean at February 03, 2009 11:10 PM (xCBQ4)

77 "And that screwdriver is cheap. And what on earth is wrong with that?"

Oh, by all means. Let's just buy cheap, imported shit instead of supporting local jobs cuz, hey, who needs goods stuff. And the Chinese need the jobs more than Joe Blow down the street. After all, it's much better to pay Joe BLow and his three kids a welfare check each month instead of a paycheck. Yea, that's much better.

s/

Posted by: Annie at February 03, 2009 11:11 PM (g+A6A)

78 Annie,
Are you honestly telling another human what decision to make?
Not cool.

Posted by: Nom de Blog at February 03, 2009 11:13 PM (szcvf)

79 All I know is that Obama is so hot, so COOL, the most perfect man EVER, I am gonna get my ears pinned out.

Oh, and my wife is gonna get her mandible enlarged too.

Posted by: Druid at February 03, 2009 11:14 PM (mdr+B)

80 Lana .... You made the point more coherently than I did. Admittedly not difficult.

Shit , if Marie Osmond agrees with me , I have fucked up . Cause , it's a fuckin' troll .

Posted by: aubrey at February 03, 2009 11:14 PM (h9TJd)

81 anytime now, BDarling ...

.......and this is why we lose elections.

Posted by: Annie at February 03, 2009 11:15 PM (g+A6A)

82 XBradTC,
It's ok with me to complain about the punk and the fucking MSM.
Go ahead and let 'er rip. I feel great when I do!
Besides.. Barry's water is gonna break real soon.

Posted by: sickinmass at February 03, 2009 11:15 PM (/i4dU)

Darling just shit the bed, and it seems there is one stuck-in-the-1970s mercantilist just like her on every single conservative site.

Hey, you know what other advantages Bangladesh and other new manufacturing meccas enjoy besides cheap labor?

1. Lower corporate taxes

2. No annual imposition of 14 pounds worth (when printed) of new federal regulations.

3. No OSHA (Yes, OSHA is a good thing...mostly)

4. No tort lawyers.

5. No Global warming bullshit mandates.

6. No Unions (Yes, they once had a useful purpose, and maybe still do, but ask Detroit how that story ends).

Instead of erecting artificial trade barriers to protect our artificially handcuffed industry, how about we unfucking handcuff them or, barring that, export some of that handcuffing overseas.

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at February 03, 2009 11:17 PM (wgLRl)

84 So first Obama runs around waving his hands in the air frantically telling House Republicans that something, anything, has to be done, right quick, right now, sweet baby Moses why aren't you voting for this completely-unexamined rushed-through cobbled-together discredited Keynesian shit sandwich to save the economy and the planet and the polar bears, and now he's saying uhhh, uhhhh, uhhhh maybe there uhhh are some things in this unprecedented $820 BILLION FUCKING DOLLAR Spend-a-Thon bill that require closer examination and a modicum of thought?

Fuck you, Obama, you arrogant clueless deranged asshole. Fuck you and your Stimuseless Bill.

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 03, 2009 11:17 PM (A6DQi)

85 "Are you honestly telling another human what decision to make?
Not cool.

Posted by: Nom de Blog at February 03, 2009 11:13 PM (szcvf)"

Oh, that's rich. Read your own comments much?

Posted by: Annie at February 03, 2009 11:17 PM (g+A6A)

86 I guess my complaint ain't with Barry on that, but rather AP. An accurate story would have said he was making some rookie mistakes, but remained very popular. But no, they insist on trying to carry his water.

That AP story gets worse.

In other words, Obama may be more ordinary than some admirers would like to admit. He will surely struggle, over the coming weeks and months, with the economy, health care, military matters and Congress, much as other presidents have.

That's hardly an indictment. But Obama's rocket ride to the White House, his extraordinary speaking skills, and his smooth, I-don't-sweat style had some people calling him "the one," a once-in-a-generation political leader who could rise above his predecessors' foibles.

Even when Barry does wrong he can do no wrong.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at February 03, 2009 11:17 PM (g6O3h)

87 If any of you watch How It's Made, you will notice that a lot of items are simply cranked out by machines in huge numbers. They are not made by hand by old world craftsmen. Assembly is a different matter, though. Manufacturers build their plants in other countries because Americans have made it almost impossible to build one here. The people who vote these jackasses into office are the very ones who are hurt the most from the loss of these jobs. So, 'ef em.

Posted by: Ostral B Heretic at February 03, 2009 11:19 PM (id7IM)

88 Look, I know I'm dead, but please, please reread some of my work. I'm the only good thing to come out of Chicago in a long time.

Posted by: Milton Friedman at February 03, 2009 11:19 PM (AZGON)

89 And according to AP losing Dasshole as HHS is going to result in the end of the world

WASHINGTON – Tom Daschle's decision to withdraw his nomination as health and human services secretary clouds hopes that President Barack Obama will make significant progress on health reform in his first 100 days in the White House.

But the problems of unaffordable medical bills and millions of uninsured aren't going away, and a deepening recession has more Americans feeling worried about their jobs and insecure about their health benefits.

Tom of course would have made it all better.

Between the loss of Daschle and continuing economic problems, "I don't see how we get to health care reform until the fall," said Robert Laszewski, a policy analyst and consultant for health care companies. "This really sets the momentum back. I think they are in disarray ... and it's going to have a very negative impact on health care reform."

Quick someone call Tommy boy back and tell him all is forgiven!!!

Posted by: TheQuietMan at February 03, 2009 11:22 PM (g6O3h)

90 Annie,

When you make an argument, I'll be here.
But I can't stay up all night so be quick, please.

Posted by: Nom de Blog at February 03, 2009 11:22 PM (szcvf)

91 Bartender.. I have what Waterhouse is having..

Posted by: sickinmass at February 03, 2009 11:22 PM (/i4dU)

And look at the migration of industry out of the midwest to the south.

Cheap labor is not the only reason for that shift.

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at February 03, 2009 11:22 PM (wgLRl)

93 $820 BILLION FUCKING DOLLAR

What is that in man-hours, man-years, uhhh, productive lives?

There is some very basic math involved here - minimum wage is $___ per man-hour.

Using grade school math, this converts to ____ man-years, and ____ productive lives.

Carter my COOL Obama surgically enhanced pinned-out perfect ears, this ass-clown commie is gonna do Pol-Pot proud... in the history books.

Posted by: Druid at February 03, 2009 11:23 PM (mdr+B)

94 Posted by: robtr at February 03, 2009 11:04 PM (uJzOr)

Better late than never.

If he had stuck with his protectionist rhetoric as President (remember his flirtation with reopening NAFTA during one of the primary debates?) we wouldn't be facing the possibility of a depression but rather simply waiting for the inevitable one.

Yeah, I wish free market economics were his default position but that wasn't on the menu this year. I'll take a little bit of realty at the 11th hour over the other options. Of course this will be a constant, case by case battle with this asshole.

Posted by: DrewM. at February 03, 2009 11:23 PM (hlYel)

95
It's good for America because its good for Levi's stockholders, who I am sure out-number the displaced workforce and middle America can still afford to buy jeans and spend their remaining discretionary income on something else they want or need...

Okay, Jean. That's great and that's how it's supposed to work, yes. But look at this: and middle America can still afford to buy jeans and spend their remaining discretionary income on something else they want or need...

This is the whole point. Where does middle America earn their income. Of course I know not everyone has a factory job, but the loss of manufacturing jobs has had a huge impact on other industries and has caused the middle-class to shrink.

We're are becoming a nation of consumers. We buy shit. We are merely merchants, traders, brokers. We make nothing. We build nothing except store-fronts.

The way it is supposed to work is that Joe Blow makes toasters for a living and buys a refrigerator, made by Moe Blow, and vice versa.

But Joe and Moe aren't making anything. So tell me where Joe and Moe are earning the money to buy a toaster or a fridge?

Posted by: Darling at February 03, 2009 11:23 PM (MJoDX)

96
hahaha, Annie knows Joe Blow, too!!!

WTF?

Posted by: Darling at February 03, 2009 11:25 PM (MJoDX)

97 has caused the middle-class to shrink

Bull Fucking Shit

We make nothing.

Bull Fucking Shit

You are an asshat, Darling. Get thee hence and read a book, dolt.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 03, 2009 11:26 PM (ZylhF)

98 "Tell me how it is good for America that Levi's are now made in Bangladesh. Show me the upside of this deal with Bangladesh."

50 years ago, it cost about 5 hours' wages to buy a pair of Levi's. Now it costs about an hours' worth.

Posted by: notropis at February 03, 2009 11:28 PM (2eXPC)

99 But Joe and Moe aren't making anything. So tell me where Joe and Moe are earning the money to buy a toaster or a fridge?

Posted by: Darling at February 03, 2009 11:23 PM (MJoDX)

Did Joe and Moe scream NIMBY! when ACME Incorporated wanted to put a manufacturing plant or a new power generator or power transimission lines in their backyard?

Did Joe and Moe vote for the candidate with the Sierra Club seal of approval?

Are Joe and Moe believers in Global Warming?

If so, Joe and Moe can go get fucked, for all I care.

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at February 03, 2009 11:30 PM (wgLRl)

100 Well, we still make most of the best military hardware in the world . That's a manufacturing base I can get behind . It's a growth industry , too. If you want more "Bang" for your buck , buy American .

Posted by: aubrey at February 03, 2009 11:31 PM (h9TJd)

101 Annie,

Housewives get the cheap screwdriver because they don't need the investment in the expensive screwdriver. Unless they want and can afford one.

The trades, the professionals who use screwdrivers for a living, will buy the better, expensive screwdriver because they need it to work. Builders and trades in our area rarely shop at Home Depot because they need a quality product.

This is a win for everyone. What you propose is denying the housewife an affordable, handy screwdriver, at little cost to herself, denying the Chinese woman making the cheap screwdriver a living wage in China so that she can improve her station and her family's life (which is for the better for the entire planet) , all to protect some chick working at the expensive screwdriver company who is selling expensive screwdrivers, if they're quality, to good builders across the nation.

Of course, if the chick in the screwdriver plant is working for some idiot producing crap and calling it quality, *cough* GM *cough*, then you're demanding all of us buy crap advertised as quality because an American made it in America!!! You see how that worked out for the Soviet Union, right? Only the rich can afford the screwdriver, which, incidentally, is a crappy screwdriver because it's the nationally mandated screwdriver.

Great idea!!! Meanwhile, some chick with a low paying job can't afford one and her faucet leaks. She could fix it herself, but she can't afford a screwdriver.

Posted by: Lana at February 03, 2009 11:32 PM (Nf4XK)

102 Blow Jo would be a good username. Is it available? I'm tired of my porn name.

Waffles, change, meh. Diff day, same shit.

Posted by: Amanda at February 03, 2009 11:33 PM (SXosX)

103 It's amazing that we actually have to have this discussion. Can any of our protectionist friends here point me to any analysis of Smoot-Hawely that says, "It was great! A fantastic bit of legislation that really helped America during the dark years"?

You simply can't because their not a person on Earth who has heard those two names who thinks it was anything but destructive. Why precisely should we think the outcome would be different this time?

Posted by: DrewM. at February 03, 2009 11:33 PM (hlYel)

104 "Every month we do not have an economic recover package 500,000,000 Americans lose their jobs..."

Posted by: Granny Rictus McBotoxImplants at February 03, 2009 11:33 PM (ad8lc)

105 Why all this talk of trade wars and a return to the Great Depression?
They're constructing a scenario that is not going to happen in the real world. What I think is happening here is a lot of bluster on this issue to try to leverage the Obama administration on more pressing issues down the road.
That's because during the presidential campaign, Obama was cool to free trade. A new round of global trade liberalization has been deadlocked for several years, and in this time of crisis, Americans aren't exactly begging for it.
People need to understand their chances of talking the American public out of this kind of attitude are zero. There is now a deeply rooted anger on the part of the average American at what he or she thinks is a very unfair set of arrangements.

The Obama administration, besieged with problems getting appointees confirmed, is trying to keep a foot in both camps of the Buy American debate.

Posted by: sickinmass at February 03, 2009 11:34 PM (/i4dU)

106

This is horrible! The worst thing ever!

Posted by: Lou Dobbs at February 03, 2009 11:37 PM (5DhtJ)

107 Don't forget all those farming jobs we lost to mechanization.
That was terrible for the economy.

And refrigerated train cars and truck trailers ruined the local produce/beer/whatever markets.
Think of all the jobs!!11!11!!!!!

If only we could go back to farming and manufacturing we'd be a much more wealthy country.

Posted by: Nom de Blog at February 03, 2009 11:37 PM (szcvf)

108 The United States' non-existent manufacturing sector ... somehow the largest in the world:

http://tinyurl.com/bzrz4m

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 03, 2009 11:41 PM (A6DQi)

109 I am severely annoyed that I even have to pretend some of these people have a point that needs to be refuted. For a country that DOESN'T MAKE ANYTHING, we sure do MAKE A LOT OF SHIT.

And if you control for first generation immigrants, disposable income just keeps going up (admittedly until lately). I.E.--save the disappearing middle class crap for another day.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 03, 2009 11:42 PM (ZylhF)

110 Unions under the bus!

Posted by: Jim62sch at February 03, 2009 11:43 PM (6rQXk)

111 They're looking at the specific provisions and the specific language, but the president's been very clear that he wants this to be a bill that supports the American economy, but at the same time his bill is not going to be an excuse for America breaking its international commitments or embracing any new kind of protectionism.

Posted by: sickinmass at February 03, 2009 11:45 PM (/i4dU)

112 Oh, by all means. Let's just buy cheap, imported shit instead of supporting local jobs cuz, hey, who needs goods stuff. And the Chinese need the jobs more than Joe Blow down the street. After all, it's much better to pay Joe BLow and his three kids a welfare check each month instead of a paycheck. Yea, that's much better.

Posted by: Annie at February 03, 2009 11:11 PM (g+A6A)

Tell me how it is good for America that Levi's are now made in Bangladesh. Show me the upside of this deal with Bangladesh. You can't because by and large, free trade benefits the few and hurts the many.

Posted by: Darling at February 03, 2009 11:01 PM (MJoDX)

-

A.) As other people have already stated, you pay less for the goods.

But also,

B.) If you don't make those jeans cheaply in Bangladesh, the other company that does make those jeans cheaply in Bangladesh is going to beat your company in the long run. That company will have more profits. Overseas companies will be able to buy better fabrics, pay more for the top designers, and, for other types of industries, spend more on R&D.

Ultimately, either:

1.) your company will go bankrupt;

2.) the foreign company will buy yours and fire a bunch of your workers anyway;

or

3.) the domestic company will stagnantly live on, but not hire a lot of new workers in the U.S. because the business for its higher priced goods just isn't there.

So, one way or another, a bunch of people in the U.S. are going to be fired - it's just a question of whether you're going to take the company down with them.

As Exhibit A - the policy the Dems have toyed around with (high tariffs and increasing taxes on the wealthy) is exactly what Herbert Hoover did at the start of the Great Depression.

Posted by: AD at February 03, 2009 11:48 PM (4s7p5)

113 Nom de Blog,

Let's not be small and slight the buggy whip industry. Indeed, the buggy industry that spawned it's creation. How have we, as a nation, survived the death of these vital American made products? I cannot believe we didn't have the American gumption to protect and nuture them with price protection and government subsidies. Where's my damn buggy?!?!?!

Posted by: Lana at February 03, 2009 11:49 PM (Nf4XK)

114

Buy American, its patriotic (nahh, the European voters object)

Buy Best Price & Quality,its free market (nahh the Unions cry foul)

Buy Commie!!!

See ....... Obama fixed it for us !!!

Four Two more years of the fix, and alot more apologies

(note the Black background, to remind us its not racist at all)

Posted by: cromagnum at February 03, 2009 11:50 PM (Kr8mw)

115 This "we don't manufacture anything in the US" has become a meme that needs to be beaten down whenever it's uttered. A few years ago I heard one of my co-workers say it to a visiting German. He said it in the break room which is 20 feet from the assembly floor where we, you know, manufacture products. Clueless!

Posted by: Ostral B Heretic at February 03, 2009 11:51 PM (id7IM)

116

Is that the best you can do, Lana?

What about the builder of sailing ships? Ropewalks, canvasmakers, ship's chandlers, coopers, and carpenters all thrown out of work thanks to the steam engine.

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at February 03, 2009 11:54 PM (wgLRl)

117 Open borders and international free trade just do not mix well, 3000 years of empirical evidence suggests this.

All that really needs to be done is for The One to announce -

- that his predecessor's efforts to secure the borders is moving along, i.e.: "the learning curve" has peaked, and efforts will (in fact) be complete soon (~$200 million). Please show some fuckin class, we all know you are bastard child, but at least try.

- that unlawful aliens will be repatriated at US expense {sic - currently a prevision of US law}; or, if they choose, at theirs; or face incarceration at NORTHERN or southern work camps to pre-pay their repatriation costs. {work camps may require some new legislation, such as the new FEMA bill, the rest is on the books}

- loss of 10-30 million unlawful alien workers will free up 5-15 million jobs, or drop US unemployment by 5%.

Extra Credit Q & A for the day -

Q:
So, why is all the cheap shiite we buy 'made in China' despite NAFTA and transport costs?

A:
Empirical evidence suggest that the more southernly american counties (Canadolia has higher labor costs, but good quality) have shiite for work ethics. Most US companies have already tried LA, gave up,went to China despite the higher transport costs.

Posted by: Druid at February 03, 2009 11:55 PM (mdr+B)

118 What about the builder of sailing ships?

QUILL PENS, you electron-using enemies of the working man. We should have saved them--they were good enough for John Hancock, you know.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 03, 2009 11:56 PM (ZylhF)

119
While you guys have only your dicks in your hands, I've got evidence to support my thesis:

For the last 25 years we've seen mall after mall, strip-mall after strip-mall being built. And if you look at all the goods being sold in those stores, the majority are imported.

Earlier I said that the ideal situation is for people who make stuff are in those stores buying stuff. But we all know that's not the case. Contrary to Circa's belief, we're no longer making goods. So how are all those people in the packed malls buying all those goods they're not manufacturing?

Good question. The answer: they're not. They're buying on credit. They aren't making enough money to buy the shit they're buying. That's why it's all collapsing; banks, credit card companies, mortgage companies, and malls are closing.

Posted by: Darling at February 03, 2009 11:56 PM (MJoDX)

120 Just think of how many people who used to clean the streets of horse crap who became unemployed as a result of the horseless carriage. I want you to remember that the next time you smell poo - that's the smell of a rotting America.

Posted by: AD at February 03, 2009 11:58 PM (4s7p5)

121 Contrary to Circa's belief, we're no longer making goods.

And the Census Bureau apparently makes it all up, too. God, you're an idiot, Darling.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 03, 2009 11:59 PM (ZylhF)

122 Earlier I said that the ideal situation is for people who make stuff are in those stores buying stuff.

-

And why's that?

Posted by: AD at February 04, 2009 12:00 AM (4s7p5)

123 Contrary to Circa's belief
Posted by: Darling at February 03, 2009 11:56 PM (MJoDX)

That's hysterical considering he provided, you know, evidence. You haven't exactly produced that, have you?

But forget charts Darling, just point me to one prosperous country that engages in the kind of protectionism you are advocating.

Posted by: DrewM. at February 04, 2009 12:02 AM (hlYel)

124 ...banks, credit card companies, mortgage companies, and malls are closing. Dogs and cats, living together. Mass hysteria!

Posted by: Ostral B Heretic at February 04, 2009 12:03 AM (id7IM)

125 For the last 25 years we've seen mall after mall, strip-mall after strip-mall being built. And if you look at all the goods being sold in those stores, the majority are imported.

For Darling, historically (thousand's of years) mercantile imperialism was to remove a regions raw material, transport back to the 'capital', and return it as manufactured goods, even though it could have been 'improved' locally at lower cost.

Posted by: Druid at February 04, 2009 12:04 AM (mdr+B)

126
It's true; this is why we lose at the polls.

The American dream is fading away right before your eyes and yet we still have people adamantly defending free trade, outsourcing, and globalization.

I'm all for importing goods that we cannot produce cheaply here. For instance, we should import coffee from Columbia. But we shouldn't import friggin pants from Bangladesh because those pieces of shit over there are willing to exploit their peasants and pay them peanuts.

We should import berets from France. We should import pasta from Italy. We should import rice from China, not refrigerators. This is not free trade; this is greed. Short-sighted greed.

Posted by: Darling at February 04, 2009 12:06 AM (MJoDX)

127 It's true; this is why we lose at the polls.

Anyone else uncomfortable with the use of the first person plural there?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 04, 2009 12:07 AM (ZylhF)

128 I am severely annoyed that I even have to pretend some of these people have a point that needs to be refuted. For a country that DOESN'T MAKE ANYTHING, we sure do MAKE A LOT OF SHIT.

Doc Johnson.

Maybe something else too.

Posted by: Druid at February 04, 2009 12:08 AM (mdr+B)

129 Oh. DrewM. Before I started reading comments and got distracted, I was going to say:

I don't have the exact figure at hand but it's about...Way fucking more than you want to or could pay (I'm rounding off here).

That's classic stuff. I'm giving you fair warning that I'll steal it, or paraphrase it, in comments at this blog and others -- probably several times over the next few months.

Posted by: notropis at February 04, 2009 12:08 AM (2eXPC)

130 >>- that unlawful aliens will be repatriated at US expense {sic - currently a prevision of US law}; or, if they choose, at theirs; or face incarceration at NORTHERN or southern work camps to pre-pay their repatriation costs. {work camps may require some new legislation, such as the new FEMA bill, the rest is on the books.

By George Druid ..I think you got it!

Posted by: sickinmass at February 04, 2009 12:11 AM (/i4dU)

131 "We should import...."

Just curious....Who's going to decide what we should and shouldn't import? Suppose they make some damn fine berets in North Dakota? Should we still be allowed to buy them from France? How the hell could we import rice from China, when they can't even grow enough of it to feed their own people?

Get the idea? Neither you, nor Pat Buchannan is smart enough to be able to make those decisions. That's why we leave them to.... THE MARKET.

Posted by: notropis at February 04, 2009 12:11 AM (2eXPC)

132 Darling, I hate to pile on and it would be great in theory - but if you do that, my company (say for the sake of the argument I run one) is going to beat your company).

It's cool that you want to support workers in the US by keeping their wages high and I'm a greedy son of a bitch for producing my goods in Bangladesh - but once we sell our goods in France, China, Britain, Italy, and I can sell my goods more cheaply than you - who do you thinks going to win?

Even if you can meet my price, I'll make more profits than you in the long run, which will allow me to produce more advanced goods and to pay more for the top people, so eventually my company's going to win out in the marketplace.

Posted by: AD at February 04, 2009 12:11 AM (4s7p5)

133 Balrog,

You are correct and may I also give a belated shout out to the kerosene lamp industry and candle makers world-wide, mortally wounded by the advent of electricity.

I would point out, however, that electricians nationwide are positively gleeful and based on the invoices I've approved this week, rollin' in teh cash. The negligible point that homeowners across the country are much happier with the new paradigm involving lighting "at the switch" would be lost on some of our fellow commenters.

Posted by: Lana at February 04, 2009 12:12 AM (Nf4XK)

134 Before we get all "Buy American" thinking it will help the trade deficit, it won't. The only way to do away with the trade deficit is to drill here, drill now.
The total trade deficit is 5% of GDP, the trade deficit minus oil is 2% of GDP, oil makes up 60% of the trade deficit.

If we drill here, it will reduce 60% of the trade deficit.

Posted by: mrcaniac at February 04, 2009 12:12 AM (Rbulg)

135 We should import rice from China, not refrigerators.

This would come as news to Whirlpool, who seems to be weathering the ChiComms quite well.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 04, 2009 12:14 AM (ZylhF)

136

And as always the labor unions always support the demacrooks even though the demacrooks oftem send all our jobs overseas becuase these unions are as corupt as ever

Posted by: Spurwing Plover at February 04, 2009 12:14 AM (DVIZl)

137 I'm all for importing goods that we cannot produce cheaply here. For instance, we should import coffee from Columbia. But we shouldn't import friggin pants from Bangladesh because those pieces of shit over there are willing to exploit their peasants and pay them peanuts.

Conversely, while recently in a third world shiite-hole, looking for some whitey-tighties, I saw that top designer name briefs were cheap,cheap, cheap. Asked the sales clerk, "What-up?" because they were 2-3 times as expensive in the States.

A: "They are junk, buy the made in US BVD, if you can afford."

Oddly, the converted currency price was cheaper than US$ in the US.

Posted by: Druid at February 04, 2009 12:14 AM (mdr+B)

138 127 It's true; this is why we lose at the polls.

Anyone else uncomfortable with the use of the first person plural there?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 04, 2009 12:07 AM (ZylhF)

-

That was my hunch too, but if you check the tag, she looks legit; I'd go a little easier on her. Darling, you're still wrong though.

Posted by: AD at February 04, 2009 12:16 AM (4s7p5)

139 "she looks legit"

How you know it's a she?

Posted by: notropis at February 04, 2009 12:17 AM (2eXPC)

140 True

Posted by: AD at February 04, 2009 12:19 AM (4s7p5)

141 Oddly enough,

In sometime ago, 9-11 something for some reason, aside from the suggestion that the US invade their countries and kill their leaders for some reason, others suggest building nukes for electricity and hydrogen.

At the outrageous price of $1B each TIMES 500??!! err, there-a-bought anyway, but that is front end cost, in the end they pay for themselves.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda, should really be shoved up 535 +/- at once as we talk about $1T in campaign Quid Pro Quo.

Posted by: Druid at February 04, 2009 12:22 AM (mdr+B)

142 Posted by: notropis at February 04, 2009 12:08 AM (2eXPC)

Enjoy and use it in good health.

As the great Crash Davis said, "when you speak of me, speak well".

Posted by: DrewM. at February 04, 2009 12:23 AM (hlYel)

143 Darling,

Rice is grown in the US. Wheat is grown in the US. Corn is grown in the US. Citrus is grown in the US. We have enough of these to feed ourselves. We then export a shitload to other countries.

BTW, when you use the word "peasants", you give away that you are a liberal progressive Marxist. Conservatives tend to call them "people". The "peanuts" they are paid is in relation to wages and standard of living in the US. Me, I don't give a shit if the coffee is picked and is "fair trade coffee", if it's good and cheap that's all I care about.

Posted by: mrcaniac at February 04, 2009 12:28 AM (Rbulg)

144
notropis & AD:

I don't believe "the market" is deciding these things, anymore. The consumer has no choice but to buy imports. Do you know how hard it is to find an American-made television? Pants? Shirts?

Let's say, as a contractor, I need to buy a few dozen cast iron manhole frames & covers. Well, the American foundries have all but disappeared and all my supply shops carry Chinese-made frames and covers. I have no choice but to buy the import. And my supply store probably had no choice but to stock the Chinese crap.

The government let the Chinese in our markets and allowed them to low-ball there way into the stores and put the American foundries out of business.

Posted by: Darling at February 04, 2009 12:28 AM (MJoDX)

145
Let's say, as a contractor, I need to buy a few dozen cast iron manhole frames & covers. Well, the American foundries have all but disappeared and all my supply shops carry Chinese-made frames and covers.

I thought it was Indian.

Posted by: Druid at February 04, 2009 12:30 AM (mdr+B)

146 Who knew darling was such a bore on this issue?

Look, you know which countries have nigh-impregnable trade protection? Communist ones. They have near full employment, at shit jobs assigned by the State, and produce crap.

What they don't understand about trade is the same thing you don't: Jobs are not finite.

And what kind of imbecile thinks factory worker = middle class, anyway?

Posted by: Evil midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight at February 04, 2009 12:31 AM (gIga4)

147 Posted by: Darling at February 04, 2009 12:28 AM (MJoDX)

You are under the misunderstanding that 'the market' is designed to meet each the desires of each individual customer. It's not. It simply reflects the choices of many individuals and allocates resources accordingly.

As for your desire for American made manhole covers, there are almost always boutique providers for anything. They simply cost more, which is of course a reflection of the market.

It's simply not fair, nor very free to require the majority of people to pay more to meet your personal tastes. If you feel that strongly, pay more or band together with other like minded people and create an upscale market. You however should be willing to pay the higher prices for your choices and not demand that others join or subsidize you.

BTW-still waiting for the name of a prosperous country that practices your kind of protectionism.

Posted by: DrewM. at February 04, 2009 12:34 AM (hlYel)

148 Thank you Lana and Balrog of Morgoth for picking up my slack.
There are truly a great number of industries in America that deserve protectionism.

If only we could return to our agrarian roots!
*sigh*

Posted by: Nom de Blog at February 04, 2009 12:35 AM (szcvf)

149 Darling, you ignorant slut,

We should import rice from China, not refrigerators.

Oh, I get it. We should exploit farm workers making less that a pittance in order to import rice which is cheap by any standard, but the Chinese who've worked their way up in the system, learned a trade, are actually able to build and service refrigerators? They can just go to hell.

So much for exploiting the poor workers in another country, unless of course, cheap rice!! Did it ever occur to you that being "exploited" in China means food on the table, better standard of living for the family, and a chance at something they've never had? The education and upward mobility to learn a trade? Working on refrigerators? Obviously not.

We have good Americans who can do that job and screw those hardworking, upwardly mobile Chinese who would dare to compete and God forbid, undercut the price of an American refrigerator lineman. For the middle class that you determine is dying, screaming, cut into a thousand pieces, dontcha think they'd appreciate a cheaper frig when theirs goes out? They also, can just go to hell. They should buy the frig you've appointed them to buy, nevermind the cheaper alternative made in China, because if American jobs can be saved, the middle class should just suck it up and buy the expensive American ice box or do without.

You're the one killing the middle class with your ideas, Darlin'. Not us.

Posted by: Lana at February 04, 2009 12:35 AM (Nf4XK)

150 darling, you insist that USA doesn't manufacture anything... but you refuse to provide any citation. Others have cited that the USA produces a tremendous amount. And we do.

Posted by: Boogersnax at February 04, 2009 12:38 AM (8jYMc)

151

I think I see how it works....

When my job gets outsourced to India, I take my severance pay and buy a gun and ammo. Boost to the local gun store.

I go out and start mugging people for money to eat. Surely, small amount of money that I get from each victim is more than offset by the new police, private security, ambulance, and mortician jobs that my activities generate.

But I need more money. So, I start home invasion robberies. More police and private security jobs are generated, ADT and other alarm companies get booming business, and local firearm and ammunition sales get brisk. Also, local fences will do more business selling the goods I produce from other people's homes. Plus, the people I do business with will have to patronize local businesses to replace the materials that I have put back into the stream of commerce.

If I get caught, no problem. Judges, clerks, guards, and lawyers all get more work. Perhaps more of each will be needed if others follow my program of economic stimulus!

Hell, we should just downsize everyone and have full employment!

*grin*

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at February 04, 2009 12:41 AM (8MuSQ)

152 Let's say, as a contractor, I need to buy a few dozen cast iron manhole frames & covers. Well, the American foundries have all but disappeared and all my supply shops carry Chinese-made frames and covers. I have no choice but to buy the import. And my supply store probably had no choice but to stock the Chinese crap.

Darling

LeBaron Foundry, Manhole Adjustable Risers, and American Concrete all make the product you are looking for. I am sure they would be happy to sell them to you.

Posted by: mrcaniac at February 04, 2009 12:42 AM (Rbulg)

153 The government let the Chinese in our markets and allowed them to low-ball there way into the stores and put the American foundries out of business.

Posted by: Darling at February 04, 2009 12:28 AM (MJoDX)

Darling, a large portion of the industries we're complaining about started getting whacked long before China got up and running. It's largely become a competitor to us since the 80s. Before that happened, the steel industry got hit in the 60s and 70s, our automobile industry started getting whipped by Japan and Germany in the 70s, and the term "rust belt" was being used to describe the Midwest years before Deng Xiaoping was dead.

What I'd also argue here is that solution of imposing tariffs has a track record - and that track record is of making the economy much worse.

For starters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot_hawley

Posted by: AD at February 04, 2009 12:48 AM (4s7p5)

154
First of all, I don't give a damn about the Chinese. Let the Chinese take care of the Chinese.

Second, you all sound like you just came down with the last drop of rain. Remember the good ol' days of yesteryear, say, 1973, when "durable goods" actually meant you were buying a durable good?

So now we can save $100 on an imported washing machine. The problem is that the washing machine lasts years less than an American-made unit made 30 years ago. Hooray for progress. You know I'm right, too.

We're getting boned and you guys refuse to see it. You know how we like to call moonbats "useful idiots?" Well, you guys are useful idiots to corporations. They're fucking you. They care not a wit about America or its culture, only about their bottom line. And when they get in a PR jam, they always take the PC way out; they are no friends to Conservatives.

btw, Drew, I'd say the United States, circa 1973, is an example of a prosperous nation not yet ruined by imports. Back then a factory worker could afford a middle-class lifestyle.

Posted by: Darling at February 04, 2009 12:50 AM (MJoDX)

155 I'd say the United States, circa 1973

Jebus God, you want us to return to a 1973 standard of living? Awesome.

You know, it's late and I'm thinking this is one of those cases where you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason their way into.

Darling knows what he/she believes and all the evidence to the contrary isn't going to change that.

Perhaps I should amend the title of this post to include this at the end...

House Democrats And The Economically Illiterate Hit Hardest

Posted by: DrewM. at February 04, 2009 12:56 AM (hlYel)

156 Fa Cube Itches,

Wouldn't try that in Texas. You might be dead before you prove your point. Just sayin'. Also, the cities would be okay, the rural areas, not so much.

Posted by: Lana at February 04, 2009 12:58 AM (Nf4XK)

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Posted by: sickinmass at February 04, 2009 01:08 AM (/i4dU)

159 Darlin',

Never address the point. Add a new random point. Repeat. Rinse. Kinda like a 1970's "durable goods" washing machine. Yes, they all suck. No, that wasn't your point. At least before this last point you made when you got called on your previous point.

Congratulations, you can bump and grind like any corporation or politician while you condemn the middle class to accelerated poverty due to trade protectionism. I'm sure they'll all stand and applaud your fighting for the American worker while denying them an affordable washing machine that isn't as great as the one Mom had in 1970. If they can't have that kind of quality, they should use a washboard, by golly! That'll show 'em!

Posted by: Lana at February 04, 2009 01:10 AM (Nf4XK)

160

Not to step into the whole free trade vs protectionism thing going on here but the major point of the story is that the Euroweenies essentially shoved this up obama's ass and he folded like a jihadi on the waterboard.

No clue and no spine. Can't wait to see Ahmadinnerjacket slap him around at their meeting.

Posted by: johnCV at February 04, 2009 01:12 AM (4N/eL)

161 1973?

Jesus.

I'll tell you what 'durable good' wasn't durable in 1973. Cars. Cars sucked ass in 1973. They were shit. They were worse than shit. They were Obama. They were slow, drank gas like a mofo, looked like crap, might start two days out of five, rusted out as you drove home from the dealer, fell apart within the year. The second-largest monetary outlay of most North Americans went towards ugly unreliable thirsty monstrous poorly-built slapdash badly-engineered piles of excrement.

But thank God there were so few Hondas on the road back then.

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 04, 2009 01:19 AM (A6DQi)

162 Arrgh!

"... to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee."

Posted by: Cap'n Darling Ahab, United Harpoon Workers at February 04, 2009 01:29 AM (ad8lc)

163 Don't you love it. When the fuck did we become the worlds piggy bank. Fuck the EU! American dollars should buy American goods and services.

Posted by: Nancy Pelosi at February 04, 2009 02:12 AM (K4Zxt)

164

Has anyone read the Buy American stipulation in the stimulus. The language O is talking about changing simply states that all stimulus money go to buy goods and services here at home. I think we have a right to bail out our own country. Fuck the EU on this one. For that matter fuck the stimulus in its present permenent liberal government formation state.

Ha Ha O caved like a sand castle gettin pee'd on by a fiddler crab.

Posted by: Krazy Kat at February 04, 2009 02:25 AM (K4Zxt)

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@156 (Lana)

I've considered that. Ain't nothing so pretty as the back of someone's head when there's thieving to be done.

However, here in unarmed Santa Monica, I can simply solicit donations to "The Anti-Mugging-You Fund."

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at February 04, 2009 02:27 AM (8MuSQ)

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Posted by: Dimocrat Unionist, rank #12345, file #54321 at February 04, 2009 03:41 AM (heXgu)

167 Shame on you morons! Darling is right! Consumers in this country have simply got TOO MANY OPTIONS! Stuff we buy doesn't cost nearly enough, and you bet your ass some of this so-called quote-unquote "quality" is a good bit higher than it really needs to be! And inputs to manufacturing processes, like steel, well they OBVIOUSLY need to be more expensive, so our good old U. S. and A. car manufacturers can be competitive, just like in the good old days!
So tell your corporate fatcat masters that we want our brave and clever Congressional representatives to save our jobs, and they can just take their damn business elsewhere if they don't like it!

Posted by: Dimocrat Unionist, rank #12345, file #54321 at February 04, 2009 03:48 AM (heXgu)

168 "Free trade only works when it's a two-way street."

That is bullshit, and has been known to be bullshit ever since David Ricardo's time, and has been PROVEN to be bullshit ever since back in the day, when Paul Krugman was a legitimate economist. You, Darling, are as ignorant of history as any democrap mouth-breather out there. If you didn't vote for Obama, it's only because you wrote in "Richard Gephardt" on your ballot. Grow a brain.

Posted by: Stoop Davy Dave at February 04, 2009 03:53 AM (heXgu)

169 Hey Annie, let's be clear about who is calling for whom to be forced to do what: YOU are calling for THE GOVERNMENT to make LAWS about artificially increasing the cost of imported screwdrivers. You're not just advocating that consumers freely choose them. Because the commissars are so much wiser than the customers, or whatever. No. You're not just calling for "Build good screwdrivers in the U.S. - they last and we keep the manufacturing job too"; you're calling for the government to insulate U.S. screwdriver-makers from foreign competition.
Which, guess what that does?
Take away their competitive pressure, and they don't HAVE to make good ones any more.
And Annie, screwdrivers are your peer group, because you are a tool.

Posted by: Stoop Davy Dave at February 04, 2009 04:18 AM (G2asg)

170

That's not even considered forceful enough to be a bitchslap from Europe and he caved. Mind you, I'm glad he caved but that just tells his Iranian and muslim buds that he is even more of an inept weakling than they first thought.

Presi. 98 lb Weakling got sand kicked in his face. Won't be the last time or the worst time

Posted by: Idiots, all of them at February 04, 2009 05:46 AM (hphNR)

171

I’m gonna buy an American shirt! No wait, that says made in Guatemala…

Oh, a car – no, no, assembled in Canada…

I know, furniture. Nope, made in China. Toys – nah, all made in China too.

Food! That’s it! That’s gotta be American. Product of Chile, Mexico, Israel.

Christ! Do we make ANYTHING here any more????

Posted by: J at February 04, 2009 06:44 AM (tU+Oo)

172 Christ! Do we make ANYTHING here any more????

Based on your post above, its clear we make idiots who still think buying overpriced American made products is a good thing.

Posted by: MrDIe at February 04, 2009 07:29 AM (MrDIe)

173

Yes, the unions are a problem and they need to be weakened. Yes, free trade is good for all, and comparative advantage is a real thing. And for the most part trade (all trade) benefits everybody.

But why are the "free trade" defenders so indifferent to foreign trade manipulation? We don't have free trade. As you know and have argued with great force, protectionist policy doesn't work in the long run. China (and its immitators) will not be an exception to this rule. They are currently using the old fashioned beggar-thy-neighbor mercantilism. The real affect, whether by accident or design, is to reduce Western industrial capacity and bring about dependance on China. Once productive industries have been destroyed here by artificially low-priced competition they can not be easily rebuilt. Eventually the Chinese system will fall because they're so drastically warping the market - and what's to be done then when there is no one to buy from? What will that disruption be like? I believe that we will one day look back and wish we had seen a slower rate of change.

We should also be very careful with sensitive industries. Lets not forget that so-called friends can fuck us at the drop of a hat, like with the Swiss withholding military hardware because they didn't like our policy. Let's not do as Clinton did, and give our tech away to our main global rival so they can make it cheaper for us. When American and European companies (and governments) give away technology to the vile East, they give away their "relative advantage" and give the East absolute advantage - high tech combined with the slave's standard of living. Don't forget that trading with a nation does not make that nation your ally.

I'm no union booster nor member. I'm not a true engineer either (I work in quality assurance) though I've had engineering training. And while I'm sure the accusations are coming I'm certainly no Marxist wealth redistributor. That said - why are folks around here saying that factory workers shouldn't be in the middle class? Why is that bad? They should make shit, but not get to buy it? Even Henry Ford, uber-industrialist with the spirit of a robber barron, consciously made the decision to pay his workers enough to be able to buy the cars they made. And why is it that it's OK to import foreign engineers cheaply rather than let the market forces here pay them a wage that attracts the talent from the local pool of smart kids? Heaven forbid a trained engineer makes 6 figures - let's reserve that for lawyers and bankers. Only distory the market when it brings down wages of the producers - good plan...

Posted by: Reactionary at February 04, 2009 08:29 AM (H7yZC)

174

This whole thread is asinine. We make virtually nothing in this country any more. Thanks to those capitalists you idiots support, you know, the ones who sent your jobs overseas, the ones whose only patriotism extends to the fucking dollar. Blame the Chryslers, Fords, IBMs, Microsofts, US Steels, clothing manufacturers, etc. Blame Sam Walton. Blame the damn greedy and corrupt unions. And lastly, blame yourselves because each and every one of you wants that dress or that shirt for less.

The early 20^th century industrial giants were sons of bitches, but at least they were sons of bitches who made things here in the US.

So all this debate about 'buy American' is a waste of time.

Posted by: J at February 04, 2009 08:50 AM (tU+Oo)

175 We make virtually nothing in this country any more.

As has been pointed out several times already in this thread, that's a lie, spread by ignorant dumbasses. The US makes 1.5 trillion of value-added manufactured goods, 50% more than the next closest nation. You can argue that that's not enough. You can't argue it's virtually nothing, unless you're a fucking retard.

Posted by: Waterhouse at February 04, 2009 09:27 AM (AXQcT)

176

We make virtually nothing in this country any more.

Apart from the trillion and a half dollars of stuff we do make. That is one bullshit meme you have there, J.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 04, 2009 09:30 AM (B+qrE)

177

Man I'm going to have to start telling all the companies I do work for that all the pieces of equipment I've been getting quotes for just don't exist. See most of these items are actually manufactured in the US. But they're not bought by the average consumer. They're bought by other companies in the US that may produce something for other companies or actual consumers.

But I guess its all a big lie because nothing is made in the US anymore.

Posted by: buzzion at February 04, 2009 10:18 AM (Lrsi6)

178 buzzion,

Thank you for finally coming around to the propaganda truth. We make a whole lot of stuff nothing here in the USofA. And we're blessed fucked because China sends us cheap stuff that we nobody want to purchase. Unfortunately, we have many no choices about what to buy.

You're welcome.

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