1 about time..



And my condolences for the other guests on  Glenn Beck's new show for being bumped..

2 Yes!  Now go for Libby.

3
Fuckin' A.  About time.

4

Good! I had a feeling that if he made any last minute pardons or commutations it would be for these two.

5
Yeah.  Go for Libby next.  Free Scooter!  Hell,  I'd take one.

6 About FUCKIN TIME!!

Justice served.  They should counter sue.....

7 Those two were idiots, who should never again work in law enforcement, but I'm glad President Bush commuted their sentences.

Now, as a wily friend of mine has suggested, he could shove a parting shot up Obama's ass by pardoning Blagojevich for any crimes committed to date.

8 Great news! Honor First, Gentlemen.

9 Nice!

10  Outstanding, GWB did a good thing, wish he would take care of Scooter now.

11 I thought Scooter all ready had his sentence commuted?

12 Libby's sentence was commuted, but he was not pardoned.  And he definitely should be.

13 Am I the only one that is pissed off they did not get a pardon?

14 Good news. Now Bush just needs to pardon the country from Barry's reign.

15 The article says:

>> Bush's act of clemency on Monday for Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean was a victory for Democratic and Republican members of Congress

Maybe I'm just ignorant of the facts, but wasn't it the Democratic-powers-that-be that demanded that these guys served justice?  Or were there really that many Dem members of congress that wanted them released?

16 some good news before the age of darkness sets in

17

Good news, but it should have been a pardon, not a commutation. They should have the record cleaned.

18 Glad to see ol' Dubya finally got a clue on this. Thanks.

19 Yeah, commuted, not pardoned, which means they're still convicted felons, right? No more voting or firearms ownership?

20 The flaming skull is most appropriate, but in this instance, a flaming dick in honor of prosecutor Johnny Sutton would also be in order. 

21 HURRAY! 

22 Don't know the exact legal status of the case, but it could mean that they get out of prison while continuing their appeals.

Just guessing here.

23 A commutation does not nullify the conviction.  It's a step in the right direction, but a FULL PARDON IS IN ORDER.  They may be out of prison, but they still are felons in the eyes of any future employer and they can never own a firearm again.

24

"... within the next two months."

What's wrong with releasing them tomorrow???

25

OT, but frakking awesome to know!  Guess who just posted over at Big Hollywood about Battlestar Galactica?  I'll make you click over there to find out!

26

I know I'm a member of the minority among conservatives on this issue but these guys don't deserve pardons. They in fact destroyed evidence and lied to their superiors.  You cannot reward that type of behavior in law enforcement by giving them a free pass.  Commutation is fair but nothing more.

 

27 I agree with Bob, to large, but not total extent.

28 11 I thought Scooter all ready had his sentence commuted?


Now he should be pardoned.

29 Well,

We can't have our Border Patrol Agents running around, willy-nilly, shooting unarmed drug smugglers in the back now, can we.

Bush has done the right thing.

30 Compean and Ramos, who have served about two years of their sentences, are expected to be released from prison within the next two months.

Weren't they sentenced to 12 and 11 years, respectively?

31 Commutation means they get out of jail but they're still convicted felons. They can't vote, or own firearms, and most importantly they cannot be federal law officers.

Which is entirely appropriate, unless you think its a good idea to have uniformed federal agents shooting people in the back and then destroying the evidence of that act and lying to their superiors to cover up their crimes.

And for those here that, astonishingly, do not know, Libby's sentence was commuted before he served a day in jail. Although I was a Libby supporter and felt then (and still feel) he was railroaded, he was convicted by 12 people of lying to a grand jury. He paid a stiff fine and suffered years of public humiliation while the likes of Joe Wilson is toasted as a hero.

I'm relieved they're out of jail, but Compean and Ramos are not worthy to be federal officers in the United Sates of America,  at least not the one under which I served in the USMC. They're brutal liars and criminals. It's OK with me if their time served is sufficient in Bush's judgement, but they don't rate wearing the uniform of my country.

32 >>>"Am I the only one that is pissed off they did not get a pardon?"<<<

Nope

*dons tinfoil hat*

Just typical of the overall master plan to drive down interest in law enforcement carers, so that when the next 'big crisis' hits, we either have to resort to martial law, with either the National Guard or (gasp) UN peacekeepers baby rapers.

33 Bout damn time!

34 Carers = 'careers'

35 29:We can't have our Border Patrol Agents running around, willy-nilly, shooting unarmed drug smugglers in the back now, can we.

I would take a high density AP minefield in lieu of willy-nilly border patrol agents.

K

36 You know, the point of the justice system isn't to subject people that shouldn't be locked up to draconian punishment for two years then opretned the whole thing never happened.  Bush and his hand picked AUSA should be ashamed of themselves.  If these guys didn't deserve the punishment the statute clearly called for ( and they didn't)  than they shouldn't have been prosecuted under the statute in the first place.  Bush doesn't deserve any praise for making a mockery of justice and the law and the courts and the border control agencies.  All of whom he just threw under the bus to make himself look better.

37 Hell I would even take a low density AP minefield and make a lottery out of it.  If you make it across you win citizenship.  Maybe luck is genetic.

K

38 Fucking Awesome!

39

Should have pardoned them. Now he should give a blanket pardon to ALL people in his administration who conducted any actions for national security that were authorized by him.

That to head off the nostril and company.

40 This should have be done a LONG time ago.  I hope they get a roaring welcome back home.  True patriots.

41 The only mistake Ramos and Compean made in the entire thing was leaving the drug dealer alive.

42 31 Commutation means they get out of jail but they're still convicted felons. They can't vote,

Like hell they can't!

43 GoodGrief,

If they're deserving of losing their jobs and dangerous enough to shoot people in the back they shouldn't have been let out. You can't have it both ways.... either Bush's hand picked AUSA purposely subjected to men who did not deserve to be in prison to draconian ( Bush's words not mine) punishment or Bush put two men guilty of aggravated assault on the streets because he couldn't take the heat...your choice.

44 Bush should pardon Charles Manson and declare him free residency in the White House for exactly 4 years.

45 True patriots.
Posted by: Originalist at January 19, 2009 01:44 PM (uAytX)

True patriots cover up crimes committed in the line of duty?

I did not know that.

I'm glad the overly harsh sentences were commuted but these guys broke the law. I think Bush reached a fair compromise in making sure they are punished but not overly so.

46 Cardinals going to the Super Bowl and now this? What a great weekend.

47

To all of those here who think they should not have got a pardon because they broke the law, who then gets a pardon?

48 Better late than never, and better a commutation than nothing. They should never have been prosecuted.

49 I'm here revealing my true ignorance of criminal stuff, but why the hell is it going to take up to two months to let them out?  Those with experience in this area please put this Moron some fucking knowledge. 

50 Hallelujah! That is great news in an otherwise depressing week.

51 Will he pardon Johannes Mehserle too?

52 Drew,

The time for thinking about that was when these guys were being indicted..by a USA who just happens to be a close personal friend of Bush.  The statute clearly laid out the crime and what the punishment would be.  The government knew it going in and made no attempt at all to help the judge depart from the guidelines to be just.  Now when thew heat is on they both claim the law was draconian...but they weren't.  Yeah, right.
Either Bush folded and put two dangerous felons who shoot people in the back on the street or his buddy the USA tried and convicted two guys who were doing their jobs as best they could and messed up...all the while covering for the dope dealer they shot.  Bush deserves credit for sticking it out in Iraq.  He deserves more derision than he can stand for this.

53

Ditto: my first expressed thought to my wife was "it's about damn time too".

...and I also agree that Libby should be on the list too.

54 Libby has all ready been commuted, hasn't he?

55

I'm glad that W did this.  A major strike against him is now gone in my book.

I disagree with those that say there was a cover up.  No crime, no cover up.  My understanding of the events is that this drug smuggler illegal alien was flashing something that looked like a gun (shiny object).  Shots were fired.  Evidence of crime completely missing.  No bullet tied to one of the guys guns, no evidence that when the guy showed up two weeks later that a wound he was sporting was in any way attributable to the agents. 

Then the US government provides amnesty to the ILLEGAL alien to testify, and while he's enjoying this amnesty, he's caught AGAIN smuggling drugs.  Yeah, sure, a good dependable witness.

And cover up?  the guys' boss told them they didn't have to make a report ... please comment on how following the bosses orders comprises a cover up!

56

Which is entirely appropriate, unless you think its a good idea to have uniformed federal agents shooting people in the back and then destroying the evidence of that act and lying to their superiors to cover up their crimes.

 

They didn't shoot "people" in the back.

Anyone who defends the US militart and has a dfferent stanard for the order Parol is a idiot. The BP is doing the job that the Army should be doing - defending our country from invaders.

57 Posted by: The Obvious at January 19, 2009 01:58 PM (1g+FW)

I'm not sure what you are saying there.

Yes, the gun enhancement charge and sentence was crazy. I'm not a fan of novel charges like those.

That said, they tried to cover up their actions in the course of the investigation. That's a crime for anyone.

I think the commutation ensures they are punished for what they did (an illegal shooting and fucking with the evidence) but not for the novel idea of a gun crime which was never intended to apply to law enforcement officers.

The pardon and commutation powers exist to redress problems like this. It seems the process broke down on the front end (charging and sentencing) but rectified on the back end. It's almost like the founders were geniuses or something.

58

I'm glad the overly harsh sentences were commuted but these guys broke the law.

As opposed to all those people who receive pardons who never broke the law? That makes no sense.

59 Now, as a wily friend of mine has suggested, he could shove a parting shot up Obama's ass by pardoning Blagojevich for any crimes committed to date.

Bush can only issue pardons to those convicted of federal crimes. If I pilfer some coin from Apu's register down at the Quik-E-Mart, the president can do nada.

60 As opposed to all those people who receive pardons who never broke the law? That makes no sense.

There are people who are pardoned because the executive, in this case the President, thinks they are innocent.

These two guys are not innocent. They were sworn law enforcement officers who violated their oaths and the law. I don't think that because their victim was unsavory (and should never have been given immunity) means they should get off for what they did.

61 [WARNING: One of our regular Mobies writes:] Libby is just another lying Jew (but I repeat myself). No way should his conviction be overturned by a pardon, he was a member of the bar who committed perjury to a grand jury.

62 @ DrewM: You're 100% correct.  They deserved some punishment, but it was clear that the administration- especially DHS was on a witch hunt.  Short of a full pardon, this was the correct action for President Bush to take.

63

From what I have remembered from their lawyer, and some of the Texas delegation, interviewed on the radio, they did NOT cover up what they did. Their superiors were at the scene.

The jurors said that had the prosecuter not kept pertinent information about the drug runner from them, they would have never convicted.

The prosecuter should be the one in prison. These guys should be pardoned, along with Libby.

64 Thank you, Lou Dobbs, for helping keep this story alive. 

65 Shoulda been a pardon.

66

Woohoo.

 

Meanwhile the border is still wide-open. Peanuts for the masses.

67 And cover up?  the guys' boss told them they didn't have to make a report ... please comment on how following the bosses orders comprises a cover up!


Any discharge of a firearm is immediately reportable.  Failure to do so can lead to termination.  "Brassing up" after a discharge in the field is a coverup. 

Mostly policy violation, and not a cause for granting immunity in a federal trial.

68 I'm saying the process didn't break down, Drew.  People did.  And they had months and months to straighten out what they were doing wrong during the course of the trial, sentencing and appeal and they didn't.  In fact they went on a media offensive to protect thier conviction.  It wasn't until Bush neeed a little political cover for the commutation that his pet USA had a change of heart.  I'm also saying that the court..at the USA offices's urging refused to allow some of the evidence regarding the victim's crimes to the jury and the court did allow evidence of one of the defendant's previous arguments with his wife to the jury.  Now only that you need to read Mephitis post as well.   Pardons and commutations weren't designed to cover the ass of US attorneys and the politicans who control them.  But it sure as hell is what happened here.

69 Day late. Dollar short.

Glad they're out. Bush did practically the least he could do, which is better than nothing.

With a virtual regional war due to drug lords and territorialism at our southern border, I'm sure there will be a rush of talent ready to step into the breach knowing they kinda, sorta, might get the backing of the Executive... eventually.

70 The BP is doing the job that the Army should be doing

The US Army determines alienage?  I was under the impression they fought wars.

71 On the Ramos and Compean thing:  good on the commuting of the sentence.  Not sure if it should have been pardoned or a lesser sentence given initially for the lies thing though.

On Bush pardons in general: I think the most epic thing he could do is just start pardoning random people.  Especially if some of those random people happened to be very active anti-war protesters.  I could see the implosion now "YOU MUST BE A SPY FOR THE FBI, JUST LIKE IN THE 1960's! THE PROOF IS BUSH PARDONED YOU!"

72

I'm glad they get to go home to their families. Bush just regained a little of my respect.

73 Pardons and commutations weren't designed to cover the ass of US attorneys and the politicans who control them.

Posted by: The Obvious at January 19, 2009 02:14 PM (1g+FW)

No, they are designed to serve as an additional check and balance on the criminal justice system, aka...exactly what happened here.

Yes, US Attorneys are selected by the President but newsflash...Presidents don't sift through the details of all many any criminal cases as the trial level.  Pardons and commutations are designed to allow the man ultimately vested with the executive power of prosecution to take a look at a case and see if he wants to change something about how his power was used in his name. Again, that's exactly what happened here.

Did you really expect Bush to order Sutton how to charge and try the case?

74 I'm glad these two morons won't be working in law enforcement any longer.

They shot an unarmed man as he was running away - after (clumsily and unsuccessfully) trying to smash him in the jaw with a shotgun butt when he surrendered.  Then they covered it up.

They could have taken a plea deal but chose to go to court.  A jury convicted them and the 10 year mandatory minimum sentence imposed by Congress bit them in the ass.

All they had to do was slap the cuffs on the guy.  Instead they took justice into their own hands.  Justice has a strange sense of irony.

But hey, all's fair in the war on drugs and illegal immigration.  Pardon them and give them a fucking mini-gun next time.

75

These American heros were railroaded and deserve a medal, not to mention a full pardon:

"I believe Rene Sanchez acted as a 'double agent' in the Ramos-Compean case," Joe Loya, father of Ramos's wife Monica, told WND. "He was doing everything he could to protect his life-long friend, Osbaldo Aldrete-Davila, but at the same time he was working with Johnny Sutton to make sure Ramos and Compean were convicted."

Loya further charged that he had reason to believe "Rene Sanchez's actions make it look like he could have been in the drug business with Aldrete-Davila all along. The Department of Homeland Security never investigated, and from the beginning of this case Johnny Sutton was out to prosecute the Border Patrol, not the drug smugglers." .................

Thank you Agent Ramos and Agent Compean for serving your country and not just la Raza. We're proud of you and while this isn't the full pardon you deserve,  we're glad for you and your families.

76 The jurors themselves claim they would have never convicted if they had been allowed to know about the drug dealer's past and his continuing criminal activity.  Likewise had the drug dealer not been given immunity he probably never would have testified.  In other words, we should be proud we punished two men who would never have been convicted had the courts and US attorney's office done their job right and prouder still that in having wasted six months and millions of dollars trying them and locking them up for ten years without the possibility of parole that we have finally recognized that we kissed a drug dealer's ass and covered up evidence of his crmes in order to get a conviction we would have otherwise never gotten on two men with no previous crimnal record, and a clean work history who were doping what their superiors on the scene told them to on the reporting of the crime.  Yeah that's going to fill my heart with pride when I'm pledging the allegiance before the superbowl.   Just what Adams and the rest intended I'm sure.  

77

IMAO President Bush is the Jimmy Carter of the GOP.

These two Border Agents should have been given medals for shooting the drug smuggler instead of prison. I still wonder what sort of bribe V. Fox offered the Shrub to allow the rest of Mexico to sneak in here.

78 Good Job, Mr.  President.  Now if he could just pardon Merle Haggard.

79 Yeah Drew, the case made so little news before, during and after the trial.  I'm sure Bush never heard of it...until yesterday.  And this Sutton guy, Bush never met him.  Never even been in the same room with him..  Sutton went from defending the convictions and sentence on Beck's show to calling them overly harsh yesterday, because he had a change of heart over the weekend right?

80 The jurors themselves claim they would have never convicted if they had been allowed to know about the drug dealer's past and his continuing criminal activity.

And that's EXACTLY why most past bad actions about a victim are excluded from trials. Jurors aren't supposed to care about things that people did outside of the case in front of them.

Of course the drug smuggler was and is a piece of shit. That however is not the criteria for whether or not a cop may shoot you. Personally, I'm pretty happy to live in a country where cops can't shoot you because you're a piece of shit. Your mileage may vary.

81

What is with this conservative love affair with Libby? The dope is a Democrat who just happened to be friends with Dick Cheney. His whole case was based on blaming other members of the Bush administration for the Plame mess instead of him. He should have had the courtesy to resign early and just go after Joe Wilson's stupidity.

82 Bush waited until practically the last minute.  He really wanted to make these guys sweat bullets.

83 Hey Jorge, Pucker up and use a little tongue, you fuck!

84 Nuanced.  The agents can petition for a pardon in a few years, since there is little chance of recidivism on their part.

85 Except this drug dealer testified in court he didn't have a weapon... the agents said he had something shiny...the court hid the fact that the victim was still dealing drugs even as the case against the agents was proceeding, and that the USA involved was working to keep him out of jail during that time as well.  Gosh, I guess the last thing we want is that sort of information getting to a jury...it might help them judge the prosecuting witness's credibility..and the last thing anyone should want is the for a jury to be able to make an informed decision about who is lying to them.  The point is the facts in this case aren't as cut and dried as you and the USA would like to make them up to be.  Misleading a jury into a conviction becuase you were able to use your official position as a USA Attorny to hide the fact that the victm was a lying scumbag, and hide the fact that the victim had committed more crimes while he was recieving immunity for his testimony in this case isn't justice, Drew.  Stop pretending it is. 

86 What about a pardon for Scooter?

if ever there was a man hounded for NOTHING over NOTHING, it was him.

87 'Bout fucking time.  If it wasn't for W's anti-citizen/pro-illegal alien policies, these guys would have never been in prison in the first place, and I'll take this as a defacto admission that this indeed was W's policy.

Also, fuck you and die, Johnny Sutton.

88 80: "And that's EXACTLY why most past bad actions about a victim are excluded from trials. Jurors aren't supposed to care about things that people did outside of the case in front of them."

Yeah, but don't you think that kind of info can... SHOULD... shed some light on the credibility of the drug dealer's testimony?

89 Not only that is wasn't like the guy was selling a couple of joints either.  He was a pretty heavy hitter...you know the kind of drug dealer than normally carries a gun...which tends to be sort of shiny  Look, I think drugs should be legalized.  I truly do, but if the government is going to make them illegal and thus make their trade more dangerous it shouldn't be taking the side of the known pushers over the people that are asked to go fight with them. Especially when the people they are fighting with aren't even citizens.  Foreign drug exporters can't be enemy number one and our government's greatest ally in the prosecution of its own citizens all at the same time.  Hypocirsy should only go so far.

90

 Jurors aren't supposed to care about things that people did outside of the case in front of them."

Says who? This is yet another absurd concept which the judges have fosted on us.

91
Too fucking little
too fucking late.

92 Yeah, but don't you think that kind of info can... SHOULD... shed some light on the credibility of the drug dealer's testimony?

Well, that's why I said most bad actions. Obviously some information can be brought in to impeach a witness but there are rules about that and quite frankly nothing very special about it as it pertains to this case. That kind of issue is dealt with hundreds, if not thousands, of times a day in courtrooms across the country.

If the judge improperly shackled the defense, I'm sure that their lawyers will make that part of their appeals.

93

Of course the drug smuggler was and is a piece of shit. That however is not the criteria for whether or not a cop may shoot you.

Border Patrol are not "cops". They're the Army, or what the Army should be. The drug smuggler was not only a piece of shit, he was an illegal alien piece of shit. The "Castle doctrine" applies here. Any illegal alien can be shot on sight with no penalty. If were a serious people we'd put a bounty on them.

Your country is dying before your eyes, but you seem to think that obsessing over trivia is the important thing.

94 The point is the facts in this case aren't as cut and dried as you and the USA would like to make them up to be.

I don't want to get to technical here but that's the fucking point of a jury trial...to determine the facts.

Now you can point to the 3 jurors who said they would have changed their minds but my guess is you can find that in a whole hell of a lot of cases.

Yes, information is withheld from jurors. As I posted above, it's happens everyday in this country. There are rules on how to deal with it and if those rules are misapplied then they can be appealed (something else that happens every day).

When the trial was held in accordance with the laws and rule of this country the jurors found that the facts as they determined them to be met the standard for conviction.

Why is this so complicated? Is it just because you don't like the victim? Well neither do I but that's not a factor in determining guilt or innocence in our system.

Yes, there was over charging and over sentencing but that's what the commutation addressed and in my opinion properly so.

95 "and that they had already suffered the loss of their jobs, freedom and reputations"

Their jobs, yes. 
Their freedom, yes. 
Their health, hell yes and fuck yes. 
But their reputations? 
Right now I bet a bunch of folks (me, anyway) are thinking more kindly of them than we are of President Lastminute. 
I mean, yeah, thanks, it's great news and all, but WHY THE FUCK did it take until the last day of this administration for this to happen? 
Sorry to be Mr Buzzkill, but this news is overdue by almost two years.

96 Posted by: flenser at January 19, 2009 02:50 PM (ZD1HB)

It's a little more than a concept " judges have fosted on us". It's several hundred years of common law . In fact, it's pretty much the bedrock of western law and liberal (in the classical sense) justice.

97 Drew,

Let me see if I can reason this out.  I'm sitting on the Court of Appeal out in Texas.  Do I take a leak all over a fellow judge and a USA who is best buds with the President of the United States or two guys whose sentences have been commuted and aren't even locked up any more?  Tough one.

98

These guys went out of their way to act guilty, so it should be utterly unsurprising that they were found guilty.

That said . . . this case is causing me to rethink my support of mandatory sentences. Mandatory sentencing arose because of idiot judges giving light sentences to serious criminals. The problem is that (a) sometimes a light sentence is warranted, and (b) mandatory sentencing does nothing about the other things that idiot judges can and usually do to screw things up. In short, we attempted to cure idiocy by attempting to apply an equal amount of idiocy in the opposite direction. That idea may work fine in Newtonian mechanics, but in the justice system, it probably doesn't.

99 Fuck the lawyers.

Fuck the dealers.

Fuck the politicians.

Did I leave anyone out?

Fuck them, too.

100

Cardinals going to the Super Bowl . . . Posted by: incognito

This just in - It is repordedly 43 degrees F in Hell, and the temperature is dropping. 

101 Posted by: The Obvious at January 19, 2009 03:03 PM (1g+FW)

Alexander Hamilton just emailed to say, "tell him that's why we gave federal judges lifetime appointments".

Have you ever noticed a reluctance in any court of appeals to overturn a decision because of who the US Attorney is?

Come on now, you don't get to just make shit up. This isn't the internet. Well okay it is but it's not Kos.

102

I disagree with those that say there was a cover up.  No crime, no cover up.

False report: Check. Destruction of evidence: check.

If Ramos and Compean weren't guilty, they sure acted guilty. 

My understanding of the events is that this drug smuggler illegal alien was flashing something that looked like a gun (shiny object).  Shots were fired. 

That's the SECOND version of events from Ramos and Compean. I dunno 'bout you, but when I have to go back to somebody and ask, "Say, what REALLY happened back there?" because the evidence shows that their original statement is complete BS, I'm probably not going to be as ready to believe them I might otherwise be

Evidence of crime completely missing. 

Thanks to Ramos and Compean making sure that the brass was picked up and submitting false reports. Remember, kiddies: the cover-up is the crime.

No bullet tied to one of the guys guns, no evidence that when the guy showed up two weeks later that a wound he was sporting was in any way attributable to the agents. 

Wrong. The bullet was extracted from Mr. Aldrete-Davila's body by a US Army doctor, and was then matched to Ramos' gun.

103 Right now I bet a bunch of folks (me, anyway) are thinking more kindly of them than we are of President Lastminute.

Damn right.

Let's not forget that in order to throw these guys in prison for shooting an illegal alien drug smuggler non-fatally in the buttocks and not filling out the paperwork because their supervisor said they didn't have to , Johnny Sutton not only gave immunity to the drug smuggler and let him smuggle in additional drugs under that immunity, but also had the DHS lie to Congress and claim that Ramos and Compean "wanted to shoot some Mexicans" before the incident.

Johnny Sutton is scum. And Bush has spent his whole administration letting the USA be Mexico's bitch. This commutation is much too little, much too late.

104 Not to go all Libby, all the time, but here's my problem with his conviction- it was generated by the course of the investigation, not by bad acts on Libby's part that were then investigated.

If I had to face a federal investigator or grand jury five times over the course of several months, it is entirely likely that I would contradict myself through innocent error or a fault of recollection. This is not the purpose of prosecuting obstruction of justice charges. That's just manufacturing charges to justify an investigation.

105 It's not complicated at all.  People appointed to positions of power who insist on using  mandatory sentences to lock up people they don't feel should receive mandatory sentences should be unemployed.  People that bend every single legal theory over backwards to make certain they get a conviction on a crime that carries a mandatory sentence they don't believe should be imposed should be unemployed and derided mercilessly.  People that defend that sort of thing...that claim it is some sort of brilliant affirmation of the wonderfulness of the system are just being, at least in this one case, silly.  Sometimes doing nothing is doing right.  By essentially going back to square one the government of the Untied States has admitted it missed its chance to do the right thing when this all started.  Instead it did the political thing...over and over and over again.

106 It was clear that these men were railroaded and mistreated. The conviction and imprisonment of these men has sent a wave of paralysis throughout our out manned and out-gunned Border Patrol employees.

107 Put more simply... if the USA in this case had done what every single Superior Court DA in the country would have done and placed the victims entire history before the grand jury so that this thing would be no billed who, besides Vincente Fox, could have called that a poor decision on its merits?  We give these people (USAs, Judges) these postions of vast power because we believe they will use the tremendous discretion they have in the way they pursue their jobs for the public good.  I don't see where this commutation is anything other than an admission that the public good went by the boards very early on here and was never considered again until long after the case was over.

108

It was clear that these men were railroaded and mistreated. The conviction and imprisonment of these men has sent a wave of paralysis throughout our out manned and out-gunned Border Patrol employees.

If true . . . then the Border Patrol needs a top-to-bottom cleaning.

Are you seriously arguing that BP agents are refusing to do their jobs because two guys got caught submitting false reports and tampering with evidence?

109 It was clear that these men were railroaded and mistreated. The conviction and imprisonment of these men has sent a wave of paralysis throughout our out manned and out-gunned Border Patrol employees.

Which was the intent of the exercise by that fucking piece of shit Sutton and his enablers in the first place, particularly his use of the statute regarding using a firearm to commit a crime so he could get such an excessive sentence to begin with. 

110 By essentially going back to square one the government of the Untied States has admitted it missed its chance to do the right thing when this all started.

You seem to think that either no mistakes should ever be made at the trial level or if they are they should be ignored forever and always. Anything else simply seems to be 'politics' to you. Personally, I think mistakes should be avoided but when the happen (and inevitably they will) they should be rectified as soon as possible. That's what happened here. So why is it silly to think that's a good thing?

BTW- I said in one or more of my earliest comments, I think Sutton was wrong when he charged the two with the gun crime. You won't and haven't found me defending him or the judge on that.

111

Put more simply... if the USA in this case had done what every single Superior Court DA in the country would have done and placed the victims entire history before the grand jury so that this thing would be no billed who, besides Vincente Fox, could have called that a poor decision on its merits?

So, what's your take on Vicki Weaver getting killed by Lon Horicuhi?

112 One must ask, why was so huge swath of the U.S. Government ... from the local prosecutor through the DOJ and DHS right up to the president himself ... why was the full weight of the Federal Government brought to bear to help out the drug smuggler and prosecute the agents? That's a lot of heavy artillery and taxpayer money being spent on behalf of one illegal immigrant drug smuggler.

113 Only the U.S. could have its priorities so fucking assbackwards that defending the goddamn border is a distraction for its military.

114

One must ask, why was so huge swath of the U.S. Government ... from the local prosecutor through the DOJ and DHS right up to the president himself ... why was the full weight of the Federal Government brought to bear to help out the drug smuggler and prosecute the agents? That's a lot of heavy artillery and taxpayer money being spent on behalf of one illegal immigrant drug smuggler.

Why is the full weight of the Federal Government brought to bear to prosecute drug smugglers? (Look at any federal smuggling case. You'll be astonished at how much goes into prosecuting one.)

Answer: because otherwise we might as well not HAVE those laws on the books.

And I am one of those folks who has heartburn with law enforcement officers who act as if they are above the laws they're sworn to enforce.

115 "Why is the full weight of the Federal Government brought to bear to prosecute drug smugglers?"

Yeah, right. When was the last time the top levels of the DHS, the DOJ, and the president were involved in prosecuting a run-of-the-mill drug dealer?

Our government was acting on behalf of Mexico's government to punish our own citizens for daring to interfere with the drug trade. And the Bush admin was only too happy to bend over and lube up. 

116 Drew,

It's not a mistake when you indict for a charge that you know is going to impose a freaking mandatory sentence.  Sutton knew exactly what he was doing.  That wasn't a mistake.  He got the exact result he wanted and worked months to get.  Until it became too hot for his boss to handle politically.  Then it became harsh.  If that's not political what is? 

117 Put more simply... if the USA in this case had done what every single Superior Court DA in the country would have done and placed the victims entire history before the grand jury so that this thing would be no billed who, besides Vincente Fox, could have called that a poor decision on its merits?

Ok, this is going no where but come on. If you honestly think every DA puts every bit of information before every grand jury you are simply watching too much (or maybe not enough) TV. 

Sutton went for an indictment because two federal law enforcement agents violated agency regulations and committed a serious crime. His oath of office requires him to charge them regardless of how scummy the victim is. And for the 3rd of 4th time...yes he over charged (also happens every day). Thankfully, Bush rectified that bit today.

118 "They didn't shoot "people" in the back.">

"Anyone who defends the US militart and has a dfferent stanard for the order Parol is a idiot."

English isn't your first language is my guess.

I'm sorry Flenser. They only shot ONE person in the back. My bad.

Then they covered it up and lied about it and filed false official US Government reports, all under cover of the uniform of the United States of America.

If you think that's a good and proper thing, well, you're entitled to your opinion but I'd advise you not to join *any* branch of the US military.

I defer to your obvious superiority in judgment about what I should and should not say as a decorated USMC veteran.

You stupid fuck.

119 Posted by: The Obvious at January 19, 2009 03:42 PM (1g+FW)

Do you think Bush had any influence  on or knowledge of the level of charges Sutton filed?

120 In addition to sales of the "To Protect and Serve Time" T Shirt, Glenn Beck and others raised money to keep their homes out of foreclosure. They posted addresses for each family so we could mail them a check.  At least they will have something to come home to and will not be destitute.  As with 55 & 103, it stinks, but now stinks less.  I have to go to a wake tonight, but was really looking forward to seeing the wives on his show at 5pm.  This is a great weight that has been lifted, because otherwise they'd be left there to rot in Solitary for at least another 4-8 years

121 it is amazing to me to see how many of you people believe that they either shot him in the back, or that they covered up any evidence.

they neither shot him in the back or covered up anything.

also... the right of convicted felons to vote is a state issue. some states such as Texas forbid anyone ever convicted of a felony to vote. Being they are residents of Texas, then that would be correct that they can not vote unless they get pardoned. However, if they were to move to California, they can vote so long as they are not serving  a prison sentence or on parole, and I believe there are plenty other states with similar laws as California.

122 Cobalt,

This wasn't a drug smuggling case.  It was a case brought in defense of a drug smuggler.  Again, I think drugs should be legalized.  But I can't justify prosecuting the people we expect to go get shot at stopping the drug trade so as to protect the people we want stopped... especially when the people we want stopped aren't even citizens of the United States.  It is beyond irrational.   

123 Drew,

I don't know.  Time will tell.

124

they neither shot him in the back or covered up anything.

1. They shot him in the butt while he was running away.

2. They did not report the shooting until the IG came along and raised the Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot flags.

3. They removed evidence from the scene of the shooting.

Would you mind reconciling your statement with the facts I've just noted?

125 Drew of course no DA puts all he has in front of a grand jury.  He puts just enough out there to get an indictment...or a no bill depending upon which he wanted.  No DA in this country would have wanted a true bill on this...not one.  And you're not only kidding yourself if you believe they would you're kidding the rest of us.

126 Agents Ramos and Compean’s conviction was not only a gross miscarriage of justice and a violation of common sense, but was also unconstitutional and, therefore, unlawful, as the article linked below argues in great detail: The Blessings of Liberty http://tinyurl.com/koywm And to all those who are (wrongly) suggesting that an unusually harsh sentence was necessary to prevent abuse of power by Border Patrol agents, consider this. Mistreatment of border violators, and this includes drug smugglers who shoot at BP agents, are as rare as total eclipses of the moon, and once they happen, they are being reported and broadcasted coast to coast on all major TV networks. On the other hand, border violations are overwhelming the existing means of enforcement and are on the rise. Up to four million intruders a year illegally crosses the American-Mexican border headed north. This, however, is not news that you would see on MSNBC or CBS, and the perpetrators, if at al caught, are being given a slap on a wrist for the damage that they have inflicted to our country. Deterrence of criminal acts is one of the main objectives of the punishment. Judging from the results, punishments of border enforcement personnel must have been more than adequate deterrent, while punishments of the border violators were not. So, if you are so concerned about lawbreaking that may get off hands, soon, the logical conclusion should be to go after the border violators, and not the Border Patrol agents, with harsh punishment that would discourage others for disrespecting our country, its border, and the laws.

127 Can all you sorry ass mother fuckers saying these agents lied or covered up their actions please explain to the rest of us exactly when they lied and what they lied about.

128 No DA in this country would have wanted a true bill on this...not one. 
Posted by: The Obvious at January 19, 2009 03:55 PM (1g+FW)

You're fooling yourself.  There are many DAs who make their mark going after cops.

And I hope there are a lot of DAs who want to go after cops that commit crimes and try to cover them up under color of law.

129 Can all you sorry ass mother fuckers saying these agents lied or covered up their actions please explain to the rest of us exactly when they lied and what they lied about.

Once they are out of prison, I suspect we will hear the other side of the story, and it won't be nearly as cut-and-dry and Johnny Sutton has been braying in the press.

130

This wasn't a drug smuggling case.  It was a case brought in defense of a drug smuggler.  Again, I think drugs should be legalized.  But I can't justify prosecuting the people we expect to go get shot at stopping the drug trade so as to protect the people we want stopped... especially when the people we want stopped aren't even citizens of the United States.  It is beyond irrational.

Let's look at it from a slightly different perspective:

Imagine if Ramos and Compean's actions after the shooting--i.e., providing false reports to their chain of command and destroying evidence--was the actual policy of law enforcement agencies across the land.

Now imagine getting pulled over a 10:17 on a Thursday evening with such policies in place.

You feeling nervous yet?

131 Agents Ramos and Compean’s conviction was not only a gross miscarriage of justice and a violation of common sense, but was also unconstitutional and, therefore, unlawful, as the article linked below argues in great detail: The Blessings of Liberty http://tinyurl.com/koywm

132 Posted by: David at January 19, 2009 03:57 PM (6K83l)

Read the DHS IG's report (pdf).  It lays out a bunch of different stories they told between their reports, the investigation and the trial.

133 "Importing hundreds of pounds of illegal drugs is inherently dangerous work", said an admitted smuggler in his native Spanish: "I always carry a shiny thing with me at all times."

"To survive, we smugglers deserve all the protection the U.S. courts can give us against law enforcement", the man went on to say: "I mean, if they don't do it, who will?"

134 they did not shoot him in the butt when he was running away.

the doctor testified that the bullet wound entered sidways through his ass, which supports their claim that he turned back toward them pointing what they thought was a gun when they opened fire.

yes they should have filed a report that they discharged their weapon but that is not a crime, that is against policy and they should at best be reprimanded for that, but it should be noted that their superior officers were on the scene and knew about the incident and told them not to bother with a report.

in that case, their superior officer should have been reprimanded.

if they believed that the smuggler was pointing a gun at them when he turned back toward them then it was a justified shooting.

135 Cobalt,

That is the policy of law enforcement agencies across the land in drug cases.  Did you see what happened in Fulton county a year or two back with little old lady and the drug agents?  You think that stuff happens in a vacuum.  The solution is to end the drug war not invent new and novel ways to lock people up for stuff the prosecuting attorney thinks they shouldn't be locked up for. 

136

Can all you sorry ass mother fuckers saying these agents lied or covered up their actions please explain to the rest of us exactly when they lied and what they lied about.

1. They did not report the shooting until the IG started asking Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot. Their report made no mention of any altercation or shooting, it just stated that the illegal alien absconded back into Mexico.

2. They policed up their brass immediately after the shooting. That's destruction of evidence, i.e., "covering up their actions."

If you're OK with that, then imagine the actions of Ramos and Compean being the SOP in your jurisdiction . . . and then imagine getting pulled over in such an environment.

137 One must point out, that a number of actual drug dealers and at least one illegal immigrant smuggler received full pardons from Bush. It's clear where his sympathies are.

138 Drew,

On the DA thing you're just wrong. No DA would have prosecuted one of his own on these facts not with just one victim and no history on the part of the agents.

139 2. They policed up their brass immediately after the shooting. That's destruction of evidence, i.e., "covering up their actions."

If they hadn't, Sutton would have prosecuted them for illegal dumping of toxic waste. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

140

the doctor testified that the bullet wound entered sidways through his ass, which supports their claim that he turned back toward them pointing what they thought was a gun when they opened fire.

It wasn't "sideways," it was at a less-than-90-degree angle . . . one that was consistent with the claim that Aldrete-Davila was running as fast as he could.

WND kind of forgot to include that part of the expert witness' testimony in their coverage.

yes they should have filed a report that they discharged their weapon but that is not a crime, that is against policy and they should at best be reprimanded for that, but it should be noted that their superior officers were on the scene and knew about the incident and told them not to bother with a report.

Their supervisors (plural) arrived after the incident (not during) and never received any such report from Ramos or Compean.

if they believed that the smuggler was pointing a gun at them when he turned back toward them then it was a justified shooting.

If they really believed that, why'd they (a) fail to give a complete report of the shooting, and (b) why'd they police up their brass?

The former just MIGHT be explainable as forgetfulness. (Generally, I'd prefer to not have as a LEO someone who could just kinda forget that he capped off almost an entire magazine during a chase.)

The latter is a sign that they were conscious of their guilt.

141 Cardinals going to the Super Bowl . . . Posted by: incognito

Really?  Will the Pope allow that?

142

If they hadn't, Sutton would have prosecuted them for illegal dumping of toxic waste. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Now you're just acting like an idiot.

Ramos was on the Sector Evidence Team, and he knew what he was supposed to do--document everything in situ and submit a complete report.

143

Cardinals going to the Super Bowl . . . Posted by: incognito

Really?  Will the Pope allow that?

I think they have to do it out of their own pocket, no expense vouchers allowed.

144 I'm here revealing my true ignorance of criminal stuff, but why the hell is it going to take up to two months to let them out?  Those with experience in this area please put this Moron some fucking knowledge.

Alex, I wondered about that, too.  I thought a commutation/pardon was a get out of jail free card, effective the moment pen hits paper.  I thought they'd be on their way home by now.

145 I think the general point here is that it is dumb to try to call these guys "heroes" or "patriots" or anything like that. 

It is good that they won't be serving any more time because I think we all know that they were victims of a political witch hunt.  Illegal immigration is a hot button issue right now, and these guys were the lambs that were taken to the slaughter on the altar of pro-illegal-immigration. 

But we sounds really stupid saying that these were great men who did nothing wrong except selflessly serve our country.  They tampered with evidence and lied. 

146 For all of you morons who say that Ramos and Compean "covered up" their "crime",  please read.  THEY DID NOT.  Please pay special attention to #5:

5. In fact, far from lying about the incident or “covering it up”, Ramos and Compean followed procedures exactly:

U.S. Border Patrol firearms policy specifically states that agents are prohibited from filing a report if a shooting incident takes place and that only an oral report to supervisors is required.

“Ensure that supervisory personnel or INS investigating officers are aware that employees involved in a shooting incident shall not be required or allowed to submit a written statement of the circumstances surrounding the incident,” according to the firearms policy. “All written statements regarding the incident shall be prepared by the local INS investigating officers and shall be based upon an interview of the INS employee.”

INS refers to the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which oversaw the Border Patrol prior to the creation of the Department of Homeland Security. The shooting policy has remained unchanged.

Department of Homeland Security Office of Inspector General documents obtained by the paper show that all nine agents on the scene at the time of the shooting - including two supervisors - knew shots had been fired.

Oscar Garcia, El Paso Border Patrol Union representative with Local 1929 and a firearms instructor, said that the Report of Apprehension or Seizure filed by Compean and Ramos on the day of the incident was accurate. Garcia stated that the agent’s omission of the shooting in the drug seizure report followed firearms policy.

“Our own policy prohibits them from filing any report on the shooting incident,” Garcia said. “The U.S. Attorney’s assertion that they covered up the incident by not filing a report is ridiculous.”

Come down here to Texas and learn something, y'all.

Gah.

147

Ramos was on the Sector Evidence Team, and he knew what he was supposed to do--document everything in situ and submit a complete report.

Posted by: Cobalt Shiva at January 19, 2009 04:18 PM

That's total bullshit right there.

148 Drew, 
This has been great fun.  No seriously, hard nosed but not personal.    We don't agree...probably won't.  But I've enjoyed it.  Who will turn out to be right?  Time will tell.  There are going to be books written about this I'm sure.  And probably Compean and Ramos are going to make a Hell of a lot more money being celebrity victims than they ever made as Border agents.  We'll see.  Maybe a year from now  your view will be vindicated.  Maybe mine will. 

149

U.S. Border Patrol firearms policy specifically states that agents are prohibited from filing a report if a shooting incident takes place and that only an oral report to supervisors is required.

That oral report did not happen. One of the supervisors who arrived on-scene had heard shots, but was told that it wasn't from or at any of the agents.

“Ensure that supervisory personnel or INS investigating officers are aware that employees involved in a shooting incident shall not be required or allowed to submit a written statement of the circumstances surrounding the incident,” according to the firearms policy. “All written statements regarding the incident shall be prepared by the local INS investigating officers and shall be based upon an interview of the INS employee.”

No such interview took place until some time later.

And there's the bit about removing the evidence from the scene without it being documented. If that isn't a "cover-up," pray tell what is?

150

That's total bullshit right there.

Yeah, that's right, the Sector Evidence Team isn't there to actually GATHER evidence, it's there to DISPOSE of evidence.

151 Cobalt, that's the Johnny Sutton version. 

Both agents, however, told the Daily Bulletin the other agents and supervisors on the scene that day knew about the shooting, an assertion echoed in a Department of Homeland Security Office of Inspector General memorandum written March 12, 2005, by Christopher Sanchez, an investigator with the Office of Inspector General.

152 So Cobalt, what exactly does Johnny Sutton's cock taste like?

153 Posted by: Redhead Infidel at January 19, 2009 04:21 PM (zlHbc)

Andy McCarthy at NRO tore that article apart. The reporter mischaracterized a lot of what was in the IGs report (which I linked to above).

The IGs report is pretty devastating to Ramos and Compean.

It's a pdf and I can't copy and paste from it but starting on page 24 of the report (30 of the pdf) it flat out says they lied and violated agency policy on use of force (leathal and non-leathal) as well as failing to follow the allegations of misconduct policy.

The names are redacted but it lists a bunch of people who were at the scene or in the chain of command who were not informed of the shooting.

154 BTW- The reason they will be released in March is because that's when Bush picked.

Commuting a sentence just means shorting it. It's up to the President to pick for how long. In this case he picked 2 more months.

155 I am so happy that those 2 men will be free. Can't even imagine what they went through in prison. Thank you President Bush.

156 Thank you, President Bush, for making the right decision.

157 Good Job, W.   Now take care of Scooter...

158

The IGs report is pretty devastating to Ramos and Compean.

Damn, you ain't kidding on that one.

I saw exactly one IG report in the USMC that was even close to that damning, and the subject of that report wound up deciding to eat a bullet instead facing a court-martial.

159 I wonder why 2 more months?  Does that correspond to something?

This is a serious slap in the face of Johnny Sutton, Bush's good friend.

160 This is a serious slap in the face of Johnny Sutton, Bush's good friend.

Not really. Bush went out of his way in the commutation statement to disparage Ramos and Compean and implicitly praise Sutton for his prosecution of the matter. The "lying to congress" part of the prosecution didn't come up of course.

As usual, Bush stands by his cronies.

But at least Ramos and Compean will get a chance to tell their side of the story now.

161 Got to agree with V of K.  Bush stands by his buddies, even that asshole Sutton.

162

So Cobalt, what exactly does Johnny Sutton's cock taste like?

No idea. No idea what anyone's cock tastes like. I defer to your obviously superior expertise in such matters.

163 113 Only the U.S. could have its priorities so fucking assbackwards that defending the goddamn border is a distraction for its military.

THIS.

164

Legalese is lost on me but I understand the logic that DrewM. put forth. Good on President Bush for doing what he did for Compean and Ramos. I'm thinking they're thrilled as hell to get out of a jail where they're probably not the most popular guys.

165 No pardon?  Eff you, Jorge Bush.  Being in the middle of the road just means you will get run over from both sides.

Foreign policy?  A-  Fiscal policy?  D-  Taking a stand when it counted?  Well, let's say you did better than John McCain.  So you're not the worst in the country, but there's probably at least 100 million better.  Gentleman's F+.

Pardon them all.  Pardon every member of your administration in advance.  Watch Nancy Pelosi's head crack from the stress. You know you want to.  You know it's right.

166 About friggin' time.  They should have been pardoned.  They were protecting our border from criminals.  No commutation or pardon can undo the injustice they suffered or the damage done to them and their families. 

167 Only the U.S. could have its priorities so fucking assbackwards that defending the goddamn border is a distraction for its military.

THIS.

Posted by: lmg at January 19, 2009 07:14 PM (A/vgC)

Yep.  I'm sure you all feel warm and fuzzy that Bush sent mega billions of our tax dollars to Africa though.  And it's great that our Army folks still get to spend remote tours in "the former Yugoslavia."  sigh

168

Welcome to the Bizzaro World, where the good guys are the bad guys.  The bad guys are the good guys.  Our soldiers are evil. Terrorists are freedom fighters.  Firing mortars into civilian areas and strapping bombs on women or idiots and  sending them to Israeli restaurants is OKAY.  Israel defending itself against miscreant Palestinians with precision guided weapons after warning civilians to get out is evil. 

GW, who is a Harvard grad, Pilot of an F-111, succesfully defends us against Terrorism and conducts himself as an honorable man while in office is an idiot.  Bubba gets BJ's in the Oval office andis impeached and the Anointed One who has never passed one piece of legislation knows more about running our government and our lives than anyone.  We are screwed.

 

This is bullshit

169 I am glad everyone is so happy about on this site about these two BP agents getting out, you know what I'm happy about, they will never wear a badge again. Wake the hell up people and listen to more than Dobbs and Limbaugh you might actually lead happier lives.

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