1 Greetings:

Quoting: "I don't lack sympathy for gays in the military -- yes, the military is telling them to hide a fundamental part of themselves, or at least not go announcing it freely."

I seem to remember "the military telling me to hide a fundamental part" of me - my heterosexuality - when I was in the service or did I miss something?

2 OKAY YOU MAGGOTS! WE"VE GOT TO SACHEY TO THE AMMO DEPOT TO SEIZE IT! NOW FROLIC OVER THERE AS FAST AS YOU CAN!

This is going to fabulously!

3 Having served, I can tell you I really don't give much of a shit one way or another regarding several hot-button military issues.  I don't care how you address God, and I don't care if you are attracted to the same sex.  The one caveat to all of that is that I don't care as long as what you do in your off time STAYS in your off time.

That said, I would advise caution in repealing DADT.  Ten percent may not seem like a big number now, but wait and see what missing it feels like. 

4

Amen, Ace. This is a topic that that has strong meaning to me. I did my years in the Air Force well before "don't ask, don't tell" became the policy. All one needed to do in the cold war years was to do your job well, keep your off-duty life private, and don't wear your sexual life on your sleeve. 

I never felt "oppressed". This policy change will destroy the morale of our armed forces. But then, that's what they are trying to do.  

5 Do you really think that a drop of 10% in the military is a negative to those who are pushing this?

6 Yet another one of our countries great institutions that the libs will work tirelessly to tear down.

K

7 Ace resorts to the equivalence doctrine.

Homosexuality does not have a monopoly on the colors in the sexuality/deviance rainbow -- there are a lot of heterosexual kinks out there as well but i don't know many straights putting "i heart golden showers" on the rear bumper or having a fucking parade.

All sexuality should be don't ask don't tell in any professional situation, especially if it involves shared living arrangements.

8
This policy change will destroy the morale of our armed forces. But then, that's what they are trying to do. 

Word.

9 Not just the religious or "maleness" objections, though, is it? There's also the entirely reasonable--i.e. not terribly subject to discussions of fairness or "should"--concerns a lot of straight men would or do have about bunking or showering with somebody who views them with an eye to sexual potential. I mean, probably, I'm not presuming to speak for them, but it seems logical. At least with DADT they don't have to have whatever suspicions they may have about this or that guy confirmed into the open as an issue for everybody to think about.

10 How come it is, out of the last four presidents, the two who pushed this were (1) a draft-dodger and (2) a communist?

11 This is going to be fuckin' faaabulous...

12 P.S. You bet your ass Hillary wouldn't do this.

13
By the way, it should be so very very easy for the Republicans to re-take the House in 2010.

Only if they have the balls to run in strong opposition to Obama and the Democrats. But it's the GOP's if they want it.

14

Ace,

The liberals do NOT want a military that functions.  They want a Dutch or Germany military that preforms social projects for them. 

They could give a shit if 10% of the forces leave, they'd rather it be 50% or better yet, no military.  A Quaker military!

Kumbaya!  Hope and Change this shit, better start leaving Chinese.

Kemp

15

A-f******-men! 

There may well be male homosexuals with a masculine, libertarian bent. 

I'm a 63 year-old heterosexual male Viet Nam combat Vet who's worked with and managed many gay men over the last 41+ years and yet have met one that thrived on physical force to resolve personal, let alone, societal and cultural conflicts.

"Let's just get along Sweetie" doesn't work when other men are trying to kill you!

16 I'm in the army right now (although I get out in a month) and from my personal experience all this talk of allowing open gays in the military is hugely unpopular in my unit.  No one here really liked Obama to begin with but just the possibility of this change has made Obama even more unpopular (which I didn't think was possible before).

Like you I don't think very many openly gay guys will join the army or join my unit, I'm an infantryman, which is a much harder life than most people realize, and I can't see some san francisco type gay dude lasting very long around here.

There's already a strong perception here in the army that the army is getting too soft and too effeminate these last few years, and if they lift "don't ask, don't tell" I can see some people giving up on it entirely and leaving.

17 Gawd, now we are going to get MORE uniform changes!

18 "And other gay shit of this nature."

I lol'd.

19 Hi sailor....

20
You know how they're going to sell this piece of shit to the American people?

By telling them it is vital to our national security*. They'll tell us all about the homosexual Arab translators who so desperately want to serve in our military, but only openly.

*yeah, just like "going green" and amnesty for illegals is good for our national security. According to Nancy fucking stupid Pelosi, nationalized healthcare is vital to our national security. Everything is vital to our national security except secure borders and terrorist surveillance, to Nancy.

21 Now, while we are on the topic of changing how we operate in the military, how about allowing a fully stocked pub on board naval ships, for medicinal purposes you know!

22

Ahhh, another administration where my beloved military is turned into a social playgound for the non-serving Lefties of America.

Can't wait for the repeal of this policy - wait until the stories hit about having to attend homosexual sensitivity training.  We have to scrimp for funding for bullets yet the DOD will end up pouring millions into the pockets of civilian "consultants" to train all us bone-headed, neandertal baby killers how to adjust to our cocksmoking, color coordinated brethren...

10 months till my ticket punches.  I can't take another libtard administration...

23 "One can argue about the fairness but those actually willing to join the club ought to have some say in its rules."

Yeah, I remember them asking me how I felt about the rules when I enlisted...

that line could only have been written by someone who was never in the service. Even the fucking Air Force.

24 "One can argue about the fairness but those actually willing to join the club ought to have some say in its rules. Those unwilling to join should have far less a say."

Bingo. We have the best military apparatus man has ever created despite the faults inherent in such a vast system employing its encompassing mission. Don't fuck this one up, Barack.

25

yet have met one that thrived on physical force to resolve personal, let alone, societal and cultural conflicts.

 John Wayne: Fag - _{clip from Repo Man}

26 Stand by for the sexual harassment cases that will arise from this.  Most of the showers are not private and are only separated on the basis of you being either male or female.  Unless you break it down even further for lesbian and gay orientations, there will be issues.  What do you do with switch hitters?

27 Where do you put homosexuals on a ship or in a barracks?  On ships you have separate quarters for men and women for obvious privacy and sexual reasons, so where do you put lesbians and gays?  If we give them their own quarters, how does this square with women and men having separate areas>

I've never been able to get an answer to that question

28 As a gay man, my perspective on this is simple: you wouldn't ask a woman to share quarters with men, not because the men can't be trusted or because the men all hate women, but because it makes for unnecessary tension and potential danger in a situation where you are making split-second life and death decisions.

The vast majority of the other armed forces that have allowed gays and lesbians to serve openly are one of two things -- in countries where the service requirement is compulsory (i.e. Israel), or where the military is viewed as nothing more than a government social-services agency (the Netherlands). We are neither. We have armed forces that are filled by volunteers who are screened and must meet certain parameters. We can afford to be choosy and take only those people who best fit what we need -- which is to be able to cram people into tight quarters with very little privacy and do so without that creating problems.

There are other ways I can serve my country (and do). To me, it's no different than someone with flat feet being left out; if it were necessary, yes, we'd bring you aboard and make do, but since it's NOT necessary and could potentially create a lot of bad situations, why do it?

Again, I think those here who have stated that this is less about the fairness of gay and lesbian people serving than it is liberals trying to backstab the military are absolutely correct.

29 Great, now you'll have guys who can't pass the PRT as a male say they are bi and really a chick so they can get easier scores!!

30

Marine Recruiting Ad as read by a highly effeminate man in Marine kit.

Now, more than ever.

The clip is from Michael Nesmith's "Elephant Parts" ... which is about 30 years old.

31 Even if the military were full of ultra-enlightened gay-friendly people, homosexuality by itself produces a whole host of "issues" that one would have to deal with, that is not present in a sex-segregated force which does not acknowledge open homosexuality. 

It's not the same as working in civilian life.  The enforced close quarters, prolonged period of time away from home, rigid order in the ranks and the youth of soldiers and sailors all provide a temptation that normal professional conduct cannot overcome. 

I can just imagine a whole host of problems.  Requests for transfers skyrocketing, morale nonexistent in, say, nuclear subs.  And the lawsuits.  The unending lawsuits.

Of course, the rush to implement gays in the military played a big role in Clinton's unpopularity in his first 2 years in that it was a bit of a shock to his supporters and especially the naive Perot voters.  So this could be a big plus.

32 And what uniform will the tranny's wear?

33 "But while we argue about what should be, we can't lose site of what actually is."
Losing sight of what is is the entire liberal agenda in a nutshell.

34 Blousing your boots just took on a whole new meaning!!

35 I'm not a progressive liberal and I think DADT sucks.  One of the best men I knew was a gay veteran.  If there's a man out there willing to get himself killed or maimed to protect me and my family while I sit comfortably in my home behind a computer exchanging comments with morons, I don't get care where he likes to stick his weenie when he's off-duty.

36
This will open up all kinds of discrimination lawsuits. That's exactly what the Left wants -- to force the military to strip its longtime traditions and practices.

The lawyers and Leftists win again.

And, as usual, the Republicans in Congress sit on their thumbs on the sidelines. I'm really fucking tired of this "wait and see" attitude adopted by the GOP.

37 CDR M,

You can't break it down by lesbians and gays cause your still have sexual tensions there...  You can only have one lesbian take a shower with one man. Once anyone of any sexual orientation enters the shower you've violated the logic... (Reminds me of the old logic puzzle of crossing the river with a fox, duck and wheat)

38
They will immediately sue to admit freaks who had their genitals mutilated (i.e., transdgenders) and cross-dressers. I guaranfuckingtee it.

39 Yeah' that'll go over great in the marine corps. I had 2 friends that where gay when i was in. They were terrified they'd be found out.  I never had a problem with them at all, they were my fiends long before they told me. But i think alot of gays would be ill served by a general outing. Hey if it's free choice to tell... thats cool but, i don't see the need either way. I think Obama is just trying to fuck up the military . He has no respect for them. I have a feeling that the liberals are going to get what they always wanted. A DRAFT , I sure as hell wouldn't want to serve a libtard administration! If i was "short " right now , i'd be goooone! Thankfully i served under Reagan. God bless him.

40 Also, if any Democrat Party nitwit tries to tell you that "the UCMJ prevents sexual harassment, so that safeguards our troops", remind them that California also bans public nudity, public sex, and exposing children to either -- which does exactly squat, given that Nancy Pelosi and her fellow Democrat pimps won't allow it to be enforced.

http://tinyurl.com/35fd9k

The UCMJ argument is meaningless, because Democrats will not enforce it or allow it to be enforced if it in the least inconveniences or upsets gay liberals. The loony-left city of Minneapolis promoted a lesbian Democrat to fire chief even though she had a record a mile long of demanding sex from coworkers and retaliating against those who refused her or who weren't lesbians -- and, when she was caught, refused to fire her.

http://tinyurl.com/766l7y

41 nk, so what is wrong with DADT?  If you keep your sexual orientation to yourself as you do your religion and political beliefs, what is the big deal???  While on active duty, you have to be very careful what you do and say whether you are in uniform or not.  That pertains not only to your sexual views, but also religious and political views.

42 "Progressive liberals."

Heh. Is that like rampant assholes?

So in order to placate the anti-military Left (that insist wounded soldiers deserve no sympathy because, after all, they volunteered) Obama will foist handholding gays in uniform parading around bases on the services, huh?

Look for decades of anti-"homophobic" witch hunts in the Services. After all, since there is no more War on Terror, what ELSE is there to worry about?

43 How queer.

44

There's an easy solution - let the gays and lesbians serve, but let that service be in the Coast Guard.

~ cough ~

_{btw, I'm a straight former USAF vet}

 

45

23

A hearty Fuck You to you and yours...

46 I'm not a progressive liberal and I think DADT sucks.  One of the best men I knew was a gay veteran.  If there's a man out there willing to get himself killed or maimed to protect me and my family while I sit comfortably in my home behind a computer exchanging comments with morons, I don't get care where he likes to stick his weenie when he's off-duty.

And, as long as he doesn't bother telling anybody about it, he's more than welcome to enlist and serve. That's the whole point of DADT.

47 Hell, everyone serving today is pretty much in violation of the UCMJ.  I would wager that at least 95% of the active duty force has either performed oral sex or had it done to them, married or not.

48 27 Where do you put homosexuals on a ship or in a barracks? 


-The poop deck....


Heyoooooo

49
It's always funny when a thread turns into an AF flame thread.

50 OT: NYT story out (pun intended) tomorrow fucking with our national security..again.

51 I'm a Reservist in Iraq now and I cannot have a female in my trailer, or a beer for that matter.  I'm subjected to my locker being searched and drug tests, things that turn my stomach every time they're done.  But I knew like everyone else that a part of being in the military is giving up some freedoms.  Also, over time I've seen a few guys who either quietly admitted being gay or it was already well known- and because they didn't make a fuss about it nothing ever happened to them.

52 "male homosexuality is considered effeminate" and you're a democrat.

53

As a former Army officer, I can say that this is a monumentally moronic idea.  There have always been gays in the military.  The guys who were clearly gay were laughed at and avoided by the other members of the unit.  And that was just based on suspicion.  If they KNOW that a guy is a bone-smoker, it will be worse than that.

Besides, hasn't the Left told us that the military is a bunch of knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathers?  Why  would they want the Fabulous People exposed to that?

54 Congress lacks the stones to change the law so this will come to naught.

55

No worries replacing those that leave the military. There are plenty of draft age college Obot trolls to take their place. let THEM get drafted and die in foriegn countries. They voted for Narcisist elect-they can deal with the consequences. It's not as if it will be "unexpected" results to the 48% of us that didn't vote for the Great Pretender.

52% wanted this lying, phony, dangerous dictator, they can deal with all the really bad stuff to come as a result.

56
My prediction is that if this passes, there will be a whole lot of fucking going on-- on base and aboard ship. Years ago, they busted all these lesbian sailors on some ship docked in SF. There was a big public prosecution. I felt sorry for them. They were young women. But they were not controlling themselves and acting inappropriately for servicewomen.

And get your moron minds out of the gutter -- it's not like in the porn movies.

57 A question for those who are or have served (I fall into neither category)...

Is this going to change much at the basic unit level? No one is pretending their aren't gays in the military now or haven't been all along. It seems that the close knit nature of much of military service means there aren't that many secrets of that nature.

I have had a couple of friends/co-workers who were not openly gay who 'came out' at one point or another and it wasn't a surprise. I can't imagine at the platoon or squad level there are going to be many surprises the day after this happens (if it happens).

That's not to say I support doing away with DADT (I don't). I just wonder about the practical effect.

58 28: that was a very reasonable post, and I respect you for it. It's important to remember the point of DADT is not to ban gays, but to avoid the needless tensions you mention.

59 56: of course it's not like in the porn movies. Lesbians are NEVER that good looking!

60 When I was in college, men were not allowed to spend the night in the women's dorm.  If a girl was caught with a male overnight guest, she was in serious trouble as this was a social violation.

Of course girls had male guests anyway, but they were extremely discreet. 

My senior year they changed the rules so that men could be overnight guests in the dorms on weekends.  Then there was lots of noise, trash, and hassles.

There's something to be said for discretion.

61 5 Do you really think that a drop of 10% in the military is a negative to those who are pushing this?

Not now, but they might consider down the road what might happen if thousands of men trained in urban combat might do if they don't want to meekly submit to The One's Brave New World and they're not in the military.

62 21 Now, while we are on the topic of changing how we operate in the military, how about allowing a fully stocked pub on board naval ships, for medicinal purposes you know!

Posted by: CDR M at January 10, 2009 04:57 PM 

A-fucking-men

63 I don't think it that big a deal.  Every Marine knows every friggin sailor in the Navy is as queer as Glenn Greenwald at Carnival in Rio.  It is annoying when at sea for six months on what might as well be Rosie's Cruise, but they put up with it.  The key is making sure there is no overt stuff going on beyond what is going on already (which is pretty overt). 

64 So when can we expect the quota's for homosexuals on the payroll for everyone???  NFL, NBA, Congress, Fortune 500 companies, etc???  Will the Raiders now have to interview at least one homo before picking a coach ala the Rooney rule?  When does this stupid shit end???

65 58: Thanks, CoolCzech. It's hard, because I know people who would serve and serve well, but at the same time, gays like myself are a tiny fraction of the population in the first place -- and when you count the ones that you'd want anywhere near a gun or in a position of authority, a fraction of a fraction of a fraction.

Purely math-wise, there's no need to create problems with 10 - 20% to deal with the feelings of 1%.

66 The guys who were clearly gay were laughed at and avoided by the other members of the unit.  And that was just based on suspicion.  If they KNOW that a guy is a bone-smoker, it will be worse than that.

Yep.  And then what happens when these guys can sue or bring their CO up on court martial charges for mistreatment?

67 DADT is a copout, it was a fraud from day one, and repealing DADT will do nothing, because then it will just force casually indifferent yet silent gays, to have to stash themselves in the closet, because DADT isn't an oppression it was actually a very poorly excercised attempt at release for homosexuals in the military.

DADT basicaly said "go ahead and expell homosexuals, but don't say that you are expelling because of who they are but because of what they do"  DADT is a bad idea period, though some gays feel more comfortable serving under DADT than without DADT.

I Most definately AM a gay mocker, but never a gay basher.  In my time in, I knew very good people in uniform who LOVED chasing the chocolate doughnut, or humping the pigpole, or raising, and lowering and raising and lowering and raising and lowering donkeys, on their various ass farms.

But thats besides the point.

DADT was a non policy to begin with, thats why you see so many homosexuals oppose the repealing of it, because it simply gives you a right to not incriminate yourself, whereas before you were required to, UCMJ ain't as forgiving as constitutional shit.

Anyways, to specifics.

Do you really think that a drop of 10% in the military is a negative to those who are pushing this?  by wiser

Spot on, the efforts to remove all restrictions from military service isn't about "rights" it's about damaging America's strentgh in the world, that is what socialists want, they WANT us to fight eachoter, they WANT us to engage in petty squabling, and they want to offend as many free citizens as possible so that they can pretend to be on their side.

or at least not go announcing it freely. from Ace

DADT is a fools game, but one thing it does allow, is that it makes gays more comfortable, allowing them to live their PRIVATE lives privately without being interrogated (excessively) about it, before being discharged (no thats not a pun) while simultaneously keeping jackass fucknut activists from enlisting, and the day that the military has spent all the money on training some jackass San Fran Fag jumps up in pink and mauve utilities in front of a Code Pink or International ANSWER rally and shreeks that they are just like the evil evil green blacks and browns (utes) only now unaffraid.

It would be nothing but a propaganda stunt.

#28 by NDT = Yeahp.

I remember you NDT, always a good cat, and I hope you're back to blogging, haven't sought you out since I returned, and you are right.

By explicitly authorizing gay service (there is no explicit authority for hetero service) it will make everyone tense.  Not just with the "is he looking at my cock?"  thing, or the "does he think I'm looking at his ass?" thing, it is an insidious virus that will infect every servicemember, wondering not just if they are objects of desire, of if they thing someone thinks they think they are an object of desire, but also, it makes you wonder, "can I tell gay jokes without being in some NYT best seller edited by the senator from New York without looking like a bigot rather than just a normal guy talking guy talk?"   EVERYONE does that, and that person would have no recourse, becaue homosexuality would be explicitly protected, when he, the hetero, is not.

DADT was poorly formulated, and horribly described, and NEVER defended (rightly so) but explicit acceptance, without deliberate segregation as happened in WWII, but rather with deliberate integration will damage morale head to toe.

Personaly I don't care, but when it comes to the services?  It's a BIG FUCKING DEAL!

68 44

There's an easy solution - let the gays and lesbians serve, but let that service be in the Coast Guard.

A-fucking-men #2....

69

It isn't so much the moral objections of non-homosexual soldiers that are a problem. It's the effect that sexual attraction has on unit cohesion.

All you guys have to do is look around your workplace to see this. Wherever there's a group of young, unmarried employees of both sexes working in close proximity, there's going to be tension, jealousy, competition, etc. This happens even if there aren't full-on relationships between the players. Unrequited desires are just as disruptive.

That's one reason the military has resisted putting men and women together in combat units. (Ever wonder why the unmarried pregnancy rate is so high for women in the navy?) Now throw in homosexual ardor and activities, and you've really fouled things up. You can't even be sure who you can trust.

Tom Wolfe used a fictional scene to illustrate this in a chapter he left out of A Man in Full. It's published in his collection, Hooking Up. I recommend its reading for anyone who really wants to think about this issue. Unfortunately, those who want gays in the military at all costs aren't interested in thinking.

70 Good.  Don't re-enlist.  Bigots not wanted in this country any more.  Get the hell out whiny bigots. Join some redneck survivalist group.

71 Scy, wasn't it you and your puppet party who were screaming about how "Bush's wars" were draining our military, and how we couldn't afford to lose anyone?

What happened? Or were you just lying in the first place?

72 Draft every eligible person between 16 an 45 . Pay any price. Gay and straight, male and female, liberal and conservitive,  for war against islam.

73 70: posted by loser who thinks kids should be drafted into "national service" at a "community center" somewhere.

The people you disdain so much are the same ones keeping your ass safe each and every day of your miserable life, guy.

74 Scy?

People who think that the US is a Bigoted racist imperial society aren't wanted either.  Know 3 people who support the open acceptance of homosexuality in the military?  Mark Rudd, Bernadine Dohrn, and Billy Ayers.

75 Bigots not wanted in this country any more.

Me big Obama voter.  Me do smart-thinking.  Me no useful grammar.

76 Only knew of one supposed cock sucker in Vietnam who professed his love for tube steak.  He was a door gunner aboard a UH-1C gunship, and the CO told him he would be transferred to the 25th Infantry.  Amazingly, he decided it was just a joke, and he didn't like the Oscar Meyer Wiener. 

77 "One can argue about the fairness but those actually willing to join the club ought to have some say in its rules. Those unwilling to join should have far less a say."



All is fair in love (ha!) and war.

78 Pay any price.

The Men and Women who serve are willing to do that, we don't need socialism to find altruism, it is built into the souls of good people, without compulsion.

79 BTW, the "pay any price" quote is from Kennedy, as I'm sure you know. . and thats the lefty liberal Icon, who was no lefty liberal.  He STARTED vietnam.

80 So fish, with your anecdote, you mean, "be gay fucker, just shut your fucking mouth about it."   right?

81

This is all because of the goddamn Village People, damn them straight to hell.

Seriously, there are homos in the military and we all know it but lets see how bad it'll get if they get rid of DADT

1.  Ever see how close the racks and showers are on a ship? Even worse a sub?  "oh damn Joe, ooooh butter!!"  PUNCH!!!

2.  Imagine a carreer vet losing his carreer for letting the phrase "that was some queer shit right there"

3.  Where would you put a transgendered member berthing wise?  Lots of lawsuits acoming.

Thank God I'm retired.

82

Not advocating socialism at all. Pay any price as in the sacrifice our men and women who serve who have given their last and  best for my freedom .

 Some serve for love of country, but some -few i hope- will demand  a  price.

83 You all have been having AF flam threads without me?

USAF/USAFR 1981-2003

Bring. It.

84

 I don't think it that big a deal, since every Marine knows every friggin sailor in the Navy is as queer as Glenn Greenwald at Carnival in Rio.  It is annoying when at sea for six months on what might as well be Rosie's Cruise, but they put up with it.  The key is making sure there is no overt stuff going on beyond what is going on already (which is pretty overt). 

85 Sorry I just wanted to try out the color thing.  It is not like I am from Ohio and drink bottled water or anything. 

86 Scy - will neither serve, nor defend this country. Expects someone else to defend their right to be a whiny progressive asshole. FOAD

87 68, 44,

There's an easy solution - let the gays and lesbians serve, but let that service be in the Coast Guard.

A-fucking-men #2....

Cough, cough, vent duct openings, cough, cough

88

Whoops, screwed that pooch, I thought Senior amened the bar on a ship.

Color me stupid! (come on, I'm watching the game, I can't do both)

89

Liberals and Gays who join the military by and large go to Canada when told to go shoot the enemies of the United States.

Liberals and Gays in the military or not, I recommend anyone in the service get out at the closest possible time they can without destroying themselves, No bad discharges. If thinking of joining the  military, don't, under the liberals in congress and a POTUS who never served anyone other than himself you will be in great danger with no reward at the end. LIberals are in the process right now of removing some of the benefits (including medical) GWB fought to get for Veterans and Retiree's. Those who served just don't fit in the budget of a liberal democrat, they have votes to buy in the welfare sections of the country, and yes there are welfare sections.  The majority of B Hussein O's votes came from welfare riders. The map of the area's he won prove it without a doubt, that is if you can read a map, even one with colored squares..

I know of what I speak since I served 22 years, part of it in a MAJCOM Hq, while Dimmy Dimwit Carter was president. I submitted my request for retirement while he was screwing the country and the military. Remember Iran, I had orders when the terrorists took over and Dimmy hid his head up his a**.

90

What's funny to me is that the military was basically DADT (aside from getting asked by your recruiter) before it became law.  That's just how the force acted.  Once someone decided there ought to be a law more people started getting kicked out.

Yeah, funny. (sarcasm)

91 They don't understand that the military is a unique institution - it's not government,and it's not private sector business.  It's not a social services agency - it's real life at its most basic.   The purpose of the military is to break things and kill people, and that's deadly serious business.  Anything that detracts from unit morale must be eliminated, including this issue.  Liberal social engineers can't be allowed to treat it just like they do the dept. of Education. The decisions they make will result in the deaths of Americans, not the job-loss of some 25 year old government intern.

Just back off, and let our armed forces police themselves as they see fit. 

92

I really don't see why y'all don't get DADT.

Don't talk religion, don't talk politics, don't talk sex...just talk about what you swore to do when you enlisted.  Sounds like Thanksgiving Dinner in my (relatively) sane DADT family,  ...even for the unenlisted children. 

Ace had it right to start with but the commentators here are engaged in what is commonly called mental masturbation...aka politics, religion, and sexuals relations.  A libertarian with smarts doesn't stir the crockpot of bullscat...so I'll shut up now.

DADT is common courtesy for private personal emotions and beliefs...why don't we just let the Privates be private when the oath they've sworn allows?

93 I believe, really believe that Obama hates the military. In his circle of friends, confidants and dinner cronies I am absolutely sure that no good word was spoken of our military men and women and their missions (think dinner party with Ayers, Ayers bitch wife, Michelle and his other lefty friends). I am also certain that many an evening, over nouveau cuisine, Obama and his ilk spoke of ways to at the very least marginalize the military and its influence.

If it smells like dog crap and it looks like dog crap, it's dog crap.

94

Couldn't gays be relegated to serving in the rear guard?

Okay, maybe not.

95 DADT isn't a law, it's an executive order.  It's the pres saying "don't bother enforcing this law unless you must" but it's still law.

96 A libertarian with smarts

and modesty.  Don't forget modesty.

97 Hey, I'm out on terminal leave, but once Army airborne always Army airborne. I'll never talk shit about the Air Force. Every time we have a war, you're the ones who give us a ride.

Actually all four overseas tours I rode charter airliners there and back, but that was Kiefer Sutherland's best line in A Few Good Men so why the fuck not use it?

I knew two gay SF soldiers and back in college I knew a no-shit former Navy SEAL officer who was also very quietly gay. All three were better troops than me.

I also knew one total shitbag who rode a homosexuality chapter on an express ride out of the Army when he decided he didn't want to go to Iraq.

Having seen what one somewhat cute horny hetero female from the coed forward support company did to a combined-arms battalion, I don't know if this could get much worse. 

98 Sorry, DADT is an executive order, but sodomy (man I would have been court-martialed so many more times) is a criminal offense, though only prosecuted with assault.

99 "Having seen what one somewhat cute horny hetero female from the coed forward support company did to a combined-arms battalion, I don't know if this could get much worse."

Agree, all the more reason to keep all sexuality out of any military work place.

100 Exactly Sgt Dan, Do your job, and don't fucking proceletize (whatever the spelling is) until you leave.

But while you're in?  You're FUCKING IN!  SHUT YOUR MOUTH DO YOUR FUCKING JOB!

I was a geek Marine, MAJOR Geek Marine, and I don't think any of the gay Marines I knew were in support MOS's, they were all with line unit's, except one guy, but he was a crypto guy. . . 0243?  is that it?  Whatever.

Every one of the Gay Marines I knew were in essential positions (not a pun) and I just soldered shit under a microscope.

101 Agree, all the more reason to keep all sexuality out of any military work place.

Don't stir your soup with your dick.

Makes your dick hurt, and your soup taste like piss.

102

<sup>A libertarian with smarts

and modesty.  Don't forget modesty</sup>

Modesty of  belief is the essence of libertarianism.  If I choose to judge your private emotions and beliefs I try to keep such judgements to myself unless they infringe on my liberties and the perceived well-being of me and mine..

This Nation once had a flag that said "Don't Tread on Me".  I take that statement personally and attempt to afford others with differing beliefs the same opportunities.

103 61 (kdbabear) I like the way you think.  And these folks worry about Blackwater.

104 Hey, if I enlist, will they promise my gay husband can serve with me?

105 no Herve, not cuz you are gay, but because you are harvy fucking fierstein.

106

So fish, with your anecdote, you mean, "be gay fucker, just shut your fucking mouth about it."   right?

Wrong!  It wasn't my antedote, I was simply a line pilot.  The CO, Lt Col Joseph Boggs, a dedicated asshole, made the decision.  If it was my decision, he would have been both transfered to a line unit, and visited Courts & Boards for being a cock sucker.  My punishment? 180 days in Long Binh detention for sucking cock and a dishonorable discharge. 

107 I went to UCLA Law School with a loudmouth gay Libertarian (also very smart, though undisciplined) who turned almost every class into jeremiad on the evils of Don't Ask Don't Tell. Also in our section was a very intelligent, gorgeous brunette farmer's daughter who had just gotten out of the Air Force after 10 years. She usually didn't have much to say. One day, when the gay blade Libertarian was in the middle of one of his spiels, she raised her hand. The professor called on her and she asked, "Do you think it's morally right for people to voluntarily join an organization knowing full well what the rules are and the reasons for the rules, and then spend all their time trying to change the rules, despite the likelihood that this will hurt the organization's vital mission?" He blathered on, as usual. Later he dropped out. She graduated first in our class.

108

There's no question how military folks would deal with the living situations of LGBT types - they'll segregate 'em themselves, banning anybody who looks queer to the gay corner. And they'll just happen to have different shower times, etc. Still, a lot of fights and maybe murders, more trouble than its worth.

And, none of this really affects the kids already in. It'll be the homo-activists that stir the shit and force out those currently in service. Saying this as a vet, my $.02

109 I retied from the Navy in June (26 years as a Hospital Corpsman, half with the Marine Corps)...and I know that I have served with men and women that were gay, they just followed DADT and had very successful careers.  The only time I saw this abused was when I was at Great Lakes after 9/11...the anti-war crowd in Chicago made it a point of telling new Sailors to use the "I'm gay" line as a means of getting out of the Navy (you knew that this was gonna happen when the local news showed an anti-war protest that the number of DADT separations was going to go up for about a 10 week period).  I'd even go as far to show the kids what their DD-214 would look like, and they just didn't give a fuck, they wanted out.

I personnaly didn't give a fuck what a Sailors sexual preference was, just as long as they could do their job, and do it well.  I just had no tolerance for when they let thier sexual preferences show up in the office...and especially if it crossed the boundaries between instructor/student (which happened too often at Great Lakes).  Could never figure out what a 40 year old CPO saw in a recruit that was old enough to he his son/daughter....

#84 Joe - all of us in the Navy know that all of the gay Sailors are in the sub service (where 150 men go down and 75 couples come back up)...that's why submarines are full of semen...

110 I am trying hard not to be too pessimistic here, but I conclude that the Democrats are screwing up my country big time.

111 "But while we argue about what should be, we can't lose site of what actually is."

I often wonder why progressives never pushed for co-ed barracks and berthing spaces.  Because they know what the consequences of that would be?  But the thought of forcing men or women to share the sames spaces with others who view them as a possible sex partner is okay?

There will be a drop in retention and recruitment.  Barney Frank will be happy, the savings can be put in some of his socialist programs.  And there will be some ugly incidents in the barracks.  Guess if the military really experiences a severe drop, we can then begin drafting gays for the military.  A win-win situation.

112 87 68, 44,

There's an easy solution - let the gays and lesbians serve, but let that service be in the Coast Guard.

A-fucking-men #2....

Cough, cough, vent duct openings, cough, cough

Or... Ain't it that way already? I'm just sayin'....

113

I've not read the above comments yet, so exuse any repetition.

When the debate started in the Clinton years, it bothered me that the antimilitary "pro gay" side (a) generally thinks that the military are baby-killers, but were pretending to give a shit about gays being allowed to serve (openly) in the same military; and (b) trying to draw an equivalence to disallowing antigay descriminiation in e.g. office jobs to the military's discrimination against gays while ignoring that you don't spend 24 hours a day in an office environment with your gay coworker in close quarters.

And there are also practical reasons besides Ace's summation of personal and/or religious qualms raised. One obvious one is field blood transfusions and increased AIDS risks. And another is the possiblity of prejudice to military discipline. If Major Sullivan is boning Captain Greenwald and Captain Greenwald's company is never the first to cross that minefield or storm that bridge or that village (or for Sgt Nick and PFC Twat in a similar position at the platoon level), then the likelihood of one or both being fragged develops. So can you police such fraternizing amongst the ranks with a sexual preference that mainly features promiscuity; and not have the same liberals claim that banning fucking between the ranks isn't also discriminatory and/or that an exception should be made for homosexuals?

114 "But while we argue about what should be, we can't lose site of what actually is."

Yeahp!

I would love for a world where Marines go to marksmanship training shooting pupae and birthing butterflies.

A World where I urinate into a lake and it turns into a rainbow.

A World where I hug a muslim on the way to the soup kitchen.

A World where I can laugh without anyone (particularly muslims) thinking I am laughing at them.

But that's not the world we live in.

When I took my marksmanship tests, they were to test my accuracy with lead and copper and brass, so I can kill people.

When I piss, It's either clear or so yellow it's damn near orange, now while clear and Orange are a sorta kinda part of the rainbow, I don't piss rainbows, I piss piss.

I've hugged muslims, but we wouldn't be found at the same soup kitchens, simply because, I'm too fucking lazy to volunteer, and muslims hate everyone who isn't muslim, it's in the koran.

And I've laughed often, and taken hits, and I kept laughing, not because of what I initialy thought was funny, but because WE are a fucking joke.

You and we fuckers take ourselves so seriously, but we aren't it's a fucking joke.

I only recently re-read "The Watchmen" and NOW I understand why "The Comedian" was called "The Comedian,"  You arrogant self righteous fucks don't recognize the comedy of it.

Unlike Miller; however, It's not a perpetual situation, it is something that must be opposed, and redefined, in the right way.

sorry, drank a bit, and a little melancholy, it comes with the season.

115 for the 1% of our forces who are gay

What makes you think that the number is anywhere near that high?

116 to have to stash themselves in the closet

Which makes them vulnerable to being co opted by some hostile agency.  From a security POV, it needs to be out in the open if you're going to have gays in the military.  Anything that makes someone vulnerable to blackmail is an intrinsically bad idea.

I would explain this to those who would want to separate.  Framing it as a security issue will make it [ahem] easier to swallow. 

117 Security is different PA, I had a low level security position, and to get it requires those questions.

General Service is different, but when you start to get special allowances it's also different.

118 Don't ask, don't tell, the illegal policy started by Clinton and continued under Jorge Bush that violates the law, which says that homos cannot serve in the military.  Congress has to repeal it, not the Obamessiah.

119 I'm there!

120

progressive liberals = flights of fancy

Unrealistic expectations result in disappointment.

It's a cycle of embarrassing failure. But somehow, liberalism is a self-perpetuating mood swing.

They bitch about their own personal failures but refuse to take responsibilty.

I fucking hate libs.

121

I wonder if the USMC will be allowed to recruit in SF gay bars....

[referring, of course, to SF banning USMC recruitment within the city awhile back]

122 DADT can sit on its ass in the back row. That's not the real story. What we want to see is military enlistment drop off 90%, period. Let President Unicorn McGuiltwhite and the First 'Ho get their wish and live in a world free from the evil, nasty, smelly US Military. I want the leftards to get their wish, and have no awful Army where you can see the world and kill people. If the 52% don't like the military, then let's see that they don't get one. Honestly, no one wants disaster to befall the good people left, however few, in the nation below Canada. But once in a while, the only way to learn a lesson is to make a mistake. Most of our "New French" just voted to ream the other half of the country. So let them serve if they like. No one ought to be volunteering to help Obastard in his military boondoggles. I guarantee you he will do something that will make Somalia in the nineties look like a square dance at a nursing home.

123 Get ready. Next will be a demand for the same benefits as married military members. I saw this happen in the military when I served a few years back....gays couldn't get the same housing benefits as married, so one gay man and one gay woman got married in order to receive housing benefits so they could live off-base.

Which is cool with me. I think it is ridiculous you reward people for just getting married. However, I KNOW if gays are declaring their sexuality to the world, the next thing they will demand are equal benefits. What about living conditions on ships? They make accommodations for women, why not gays?

It is a slippery slope which will only weaken the military from the inside....all for that 1%. Most of which, I believe, don't really want to make it known either what their sexual preference is.

124 "97 Hey, I'm out on terminal leave, but once Army airborne always Army airborne. I'll never talk shit about the Air Force. Every time we have a war, you're the ones who give us a ride."

Yeah, well, if you like them AF types so much howcum you Airborne types keep leaving the damn plane before the flight's over?

125 104 Hey, if I enlist, will they promise my gay husband can serve with me?

Yes, he can be the one bringing up your rear...

126

65 North Dallas Thirty

I think gays need to embrace the gun culture.  Cases like Matthew Sheppard and Diane Whipple could have turned on a concealed-carry-although a gun big enough to kill a Presa Canario probably would have disabled a 90 lb woman but its just an example. 

I worked in a factory almost 4 years and it seemed like all of the night shift supervisors were gay or lesbian and for the most part it didn't matter to anyone.  One guy had a massive heart attack the day before his son graduated HS and everyone felt really bad about it.  I sat next to a lesbian coworker at the funeral and I swear to God the next night at work she said some dude wanted my number.  That kind of thing's not much different than a girl you don't like trying to get your number.  If a girl you don't want to go out with asks for your number you don't cave her head in with a cinder block.

However, I was a member of a health club for awhile and some dude kept stalking me around the hot tub and showers and sauna and it was creepy as hell. 

I suppose though that sensitivity might have to be used at the gun range.  "Don't point that thing at me unless you intend to use it," sounds kinda gay.  J/K

127 My 10 years in the US Navy went great, and I'm a gay man. No problems. All I had to do was become a liar for 10 years. And hey, there's nothing wrong with the rampant heterosexual adultery that goes on in the Navy, apparently it helps keep America strong. Or something.

128 I was a recruiter in the Midwest for three years right after Clinton took office and imposed the don't ask don't tell rule.  I can tell you our recruiting numbers- especially walk-in recruits dropped dramatically.  A proposed policy of "openness" will not only affect the 10% re-enlistments (I feel it would actually be more), but will probably change the minds of nearly 30% of those interested in joining the military.  Think we have problems recruiting qualified candidates now...

129 Yes, but gays make great rear guards.

130 I disagree with message 13 by Darling who said "By the way, it should be so very very easy for the Republicans to re-take the House in 2010".

This is off-topic but with the re-emergence of the shamnesty bill that will be rammed through the Congress with very little debate very soon, the chances of the Republicans re-taking the House in 2010 is slim to none.

10% will not re-enlist?  I would think it'd be much higher but then in a couple of years who knows what the job market will be like for veterans then. 

131

I'm torn on this.  Homosexuals have been a part of the human condition forever.  Who gives a fuck.  The idea that they are going to assault you in the shower cause you are so goddamn sexy is stupid.  You aren't that sexy.  Hell, I'm sexy and I played sports up through university and beyond without getting attacked in the shower.  Life, or the military, isn't an episode of OZ. 

If gays want to serve and want to deal with the same restrictions of every other soldier, marine, airman, good for them and thank you for your service.  If they want something special, fuck off.

On the other hand, the private sector is bent over so far (pun intended) with laws looking for any insult it has gotten beyond ridiculous.  The idea that we could have a DADT law in the private sector is a joke.  Even hinting about someones sexuality would get you brought up on hate crimes charges after being fired.  We are a victim nation that spends weeks a year in sensitivity training protected by a government run military that doesn't have to obey the rules that the people who employ them do.  That's more than a bit fucked up.

If interacting with gays is a detriment to morale for the military it is only degrees less, and in ways not, for the private sector.  If it isn't then the military, our government, shouldn't have laws on us they don't live with themselves.

I think the whole thing is stupid.  Shut the fuck up about who or what you are fucking and do your job.  Who gives a shit, military or private sector, where you stick your dick?

132 Strictly speaking, JackStraw, I don't really care about anyone's sex life. On the other hand - and maybe I'm just being silly, but there it is! - I would feel odd sharing a shower with some guy I knew to be gay. Probably for the same reasons a girl would feel odd sharing a shower with me.

The military is a hyper-machismo organization. It has to be. Men psychologically have pump themselves up to get for a life or death (or crippling) situation. Homosexuality in that environment is not exactly in a friendly environment, rightly or wrongly.

133

I don't really care about anyone's sex life. On the other hand - and maybe I'm just being silly, but there it is! - I would feel odd sharing a shower with some guy I knew to be gay. Probably for the same reasons a girl would feel odd sharing a shower with me.

See, CC, I don't get this.  You have shared a shower with, statiscally speaking, many, with gay guys.  And from what little I know, you have nothing to worry about.  Gay guys don't see you as a girl, they see you as, well, not what they are interested in.

I've mentioned this here before ( now I sound like WP) but the best neighbors I have ever had and to this day still two great friends were two gay guys I used to live next door too.  Both doctors, great guys.  We had a hurricane a few years ago and I spent hours with them helping our neighbors.  I just never saw gay, just guys.  After 15 years, I can say I really love both those guys like they are brothers.  And I can assure you, they don't look at me or you as guys they want.

Eh, whatever.  This argument always gets caricatured.  I just wish we could stop talking about sexuality and meaningless shit.

134 I guess people forgot about the young pole smoker in the 101st that was beat to death for being a pole smoker. I served my 20, and for the life of me I cant undertand why ones sex life should be known and accepted by ones co-workers. Are the pedophiles and animal lovers going to be the next "Accept them because its a National Security issue" group to get special considerations?

135 "...Which makes them vulnerable to being co opted by some hostile agency."

Another myth I suspect, PA. Have there been any documented cases of blackmailed gays turning traitor? Kim Philby was gay, but he voluntarily betrayed his country not over his homosexuality, but out of his sense that his 'superiority' was not recognized... not unlike Benedict Arnold. And most of our modern American traitors have sold out for cold hard cash... usually pittances in comparison to the damage they did.

136 I'm with DADT.  Keep it your business.  Keep your business out of your work.  Presidents shouldn't conduct their extracurricular activities at work, neither should the military.  On a similar note, everyone serving in a coed situation (training base or a Navy ship) should be on mandated birth control.  Keep your sex life OUT OF WORK!

137

Like reliving history. Just after Clinton took office, this issue got shoved to the front page and it hurt him. I think Obama may be smarter than that, but you never know, the left always thinks when they win an election they have a mandate to turn the country into some sort of pop culture 1984 world. If he isn't careful, this could come back to snap him in the rear (so to speak).

He didn't get elected by that huge of a margin, and I think a lot of people who voted for him were not signing on for this type of craziness.

138 I'm so tired of this gay shit being shoved in our faces.  It will be more than 10%, you can bank on it.  It will also lead to dead soldiers too.

139 @12:  P.S. You bet your ass Hillary wouldn't do this.

You're being sarcastic, right? 

Hillary was WAY more beloved (and beholden) to "the gay community" than Obama.  Who do you think ran the HillBuzz site?

140 #28 North Dallas Thirty,

You're a treasure!  Thanks for your very articulate, common-sense argument. I'm sure you speak for many gays---too bad the only ones who get interviewed in the dipshit media are rabid lefty ideologues.

141 I'm so tired of this gay shit being shoved in our faces.

This old goose keeps sticking its head up.  "I just wish they wouldn't shove it in my face" and "I just wish they wouldn't shove it down my throat".

Of course, if any gay person is even as much as perceived then it qualifies as "shoving in face / down throat" for some people.  What they really want is for gays to, ideally, die or be exiled, but, at the very least, be shoved into the closet with the penalty of prison time.  Additionally, they think that the best way for gays to die would be for gays to simply fuck each other to death.

As far as 10% of the military population threatening to not re-enlist goes, yeah, "progressives" often threaten to move to Canada, too.  Words are cheap.

142 @39:  I think Obama is just trying to fuck up the military . He has no respect for them.

BINGO.

I used to BE a leftist ideologue myself.  So I know something of how Obama thinks.  Believe me:  He despises the military.  In his heart of hearts, he thinks anyone who would join the military is at best, unfathomably stupid, and more likely, a bigoted, semi-literate, psychopathic goon.

Obama himself is in the worst case, a pacifist who believes force should NEVER be used for any reason, and at best, only used to defend communism against the evil Western capitalists.

143 Come on, people. England has done reasonably well with a mostly gay military for hundreds of years.

144 Those who want to prioritize "political correctness" in the military over its primary purpose of fighting and winning wars would do well to remember that our enemies in this Long War are people who, whenever they seize total control of a country, immediately commence to executing homosexuals.

145

Of course, if any gay person is even as much as perceived then it qualifies as "shoving in face / down throat" for some people. 

Angry liberal guy, I'm fairly pro-gay, but I sometimes wonder why so many gay people have to express their sexuality in their mannerisms, clothes, even their lisps. Does smoking poles somehow change one's ability to pronounce words in a normal manner?

146 Homosexuals are totally gay.

147

I'm a former Marine Corps Infantryman with two tours of duty in Iraq.

There's my ante for this conversation...

The number one thing that pissed me off in the Service were guys who would get through Boot and their respective MOS school then decide that the Marine Corps wasn't for them. What was the guaranteed ticket out of their contract?

"I'm gay".

Allowing this measure would close that loophole forever.

No longer could two guys go into the 1stSgt's office and announce their undying love for each other to get out of being deployed or serving their country. Then they would have to honor that contract and be held to their words in the Oath to "Uphold the Constitution".

Also, the Marine Corps has the HIGHEST level of homosexual content due to lesbians.

I love Lesbians. I didn't view them as "icky, gross, sick, or perverted". (Well maybe a little, but in a good way...) I viewed them as drinking buddies, confidants ("what's wrong with your gender, women are crazy!?"), and friends. If you've ever been in the service, you like lesbians too. You've viewed enough pron to have to acknowledge this, yes?

Lastly, ANYONE who so chooses to place their lives on the line to defend this country is alright in my book. Not enough do now anyway, so what's the damn problem with someone who is gay?

I've known MANY people in the service who've had backgrounds, religions, and creeds that differed almost completely from my own, but we had one thing in common:

The belief that this country was good enough to die for.

148

Lastly, ANYONE who so chooses to place their lives on the line to defend this country is alright in my book.

There really is nothing else to say accept thank you,  And thanks to anyone who puts their life on the line for me and mine.

149

In Persia we fought against a gay general who was very badly outnumbered and outmatched by the Persians.  He won and went on to rule much of the known world.  But the world was a different place then.  Persians still dream of Persepholis and the next Calphate. 

 I am nodding off from hashish and opium, as is my dog, Saluki.  The Bridge of Xerxes welcomes all ....

150 This will definately provide the 600K or 3M or whatever the number is today of "new jobs". Of course they will have to be filled by a massive draft, but what the hell, why not an "all Black" military. The white liberals who insist on the social engineering will be sure to set it up so their children don't go.

151 I'm not sure where to begin on how stupid all of this is, but I'll try.

First, Ace, your entire premise is based on a poll of magazine subscribers. So you can toss that 10% as a factual figure right out the window. 10% of a magazine's subscribers feel strongly enough to say they won't re-enlist. Will all of that 10% not do so? How much of it is idle bluster? Are they representative of the entire military? You have no idea. And given the poll invites those who feel strongly, you're looking at some seriously skewed numbers. The people who truly wouldn't re-enlist is probably a much smaller number. Furthermore, the numbers were probably similar during black integration. Should we have heeded them then too? You apparently would have. "Hey man, it's the Cold War. We can't afford this if 10% from a magazine poll say they'll leave. The darkies can wait." Just some outstanding thinking here.

Second, way to surrender gays to the far left. The fact of the matter is that gay people are all over the political map - merely the loudest end up in the political/activist side of the spectrum. Most gays are not only politically uninvolved, but millions of them are conservatives, independents, Republicans, Libertarians, etc. Some of the most conservative, patriotic people I know are blue collar gays with a deep appreciation for this country, its traditions, and its military. And most of those gays who serve in the military know quite well how to keep it in their pants and keep their private lives private.

By painting all gays as limp-wristed political types who are more interested in bunking in the barracks than serving their country, you're waving a giant flag of surrender to liberals.

But, you and your readers have this bizarre idea of what gay people are like. No doubt not your fault, since the media is only ever really interested in portraying us a certain way.

Forget that countries that have integrated gays have really not had much of a problem (we apparently don't do facts and examples in these arguments - just unbridled speculation and supposition). Forget that opposition to homosexuality is largely demographic - the younger you go, the less people give a damn. When you're looking at the grunts, the technicians, and the frontline troops, you're looking at people who were raised in circumstances far more tolerant than you and others seem to believe.

Also, way to go on the condescending class/religion bs as well. "Those southerners, man. Bunch of ignorant, slap-jawed yokels who hate the gays. Hey, it's not *my* idea. I'm just saying. Those religious types." Did you have drinks with Kathleen Parker this week?

So, let's see. Your idea is to oppose a politically popular policy (an overwhelming majority of voters support the repeal). And you base this opposition on a small self-selecting sample of people who apparently hate gays more than they love their country. And you're really just sort of fine with booting talented, needed individuals in a time of war.

Pro-military, pro-troops? Sigh. What is with the gay thing that makes conservatives go retarded and discard the best interests of their country because, you know, some of those gay guys are kind of icky. Because they do things.

I guess being a minority party is a good time. I have no other explanation for it. But hey, anti-gay on. I can't decide which is going to be the most fun over the next four years. Watching the gay-left flip out because they're not getting a pony every four days, or the religious right exploding because gays get anything at all.

What a waste of all of our time.

152 an overwhelming majority of voters support the repeal

I'd like a cite for that, Robbie.

153 First, Ace, your entire premise is based on a poll of magazine subscribers. So you can toss that 10% as a factual figure right out the window. 10% of a magazine's subscribers feel strongly enough to say they won't re-enlist. Will all of that 10% not do so? How much of it is idle bluster?

Word. I haven't read every post in the thread and I'm not sure if Robbie was the first to ask this obvious question, but I sure hope he wasn't, because otherwise you morons are slacking off in the basic skepticism department.

But while I think that Robbie made a lot of other good points, and I believe that DADT needs to end, I'd rather see it persist for a few more administrations than to see it ended in a totally bungled way. And I'm afraid that Obama is going to bungle it, because he's a liberal Democrat with a tin ear for military culture and an addiction to buzzwords like "tolerance" and "diversity."

The "non-bungled" way to end DADT would involve, among other things, recognizing that recruits must assimilate to military culture (and not the other way around), and an emphatic acknowledgment of the difference between "men who like dick" and "gay guys."

To the extent that men in the second group have already assimilated to what passes for "gay culture," they may not be suited for the realities of military life. But "gay guys" are only a small subset of "men who like dick" (a group that is, I assure you, much larger than 1% of the general population). And if they're willing to be conservative and discreet about it, men who like dick should be able to serve in the military without having to worry about being outed by some jerk with a personal or political grudge.

154 Everybody has a hobby or two.

Some folks like to drink beer, some like to smoke cigars, some may smoke meat...

All of three of the above are regulated by the military beyond what is considered reasonable the civilian world, even more so when deployed.

Appearances, even off-duty (which you never really are - you belong to Uncle Sam 24-7), are important as well - if a gay guy looks like your average Joe he'll probably never have a problem...

-but if he also has a leather and metal stud hobby, or pink tu-tu, or cross-dressing hobby, or walking around with balls hanging out hobby, or dressing like a gangster, or black eyeliner goth, or the circus tattoo'd man, he would get a lot of heat and probably removed from service  regardless of being gay or not.

155 You have shared a shower with, statiscally speaking, many, with gay guys.

This kind of number fantasizing just makes me laugh. Even by the Census at most 1 1/2% are gay in the United States, yet we're continually bombarded with the idea that the world swarms with gays, they're everywhere! Some of the numbers are just hilarious: 10%, 25% of the world's population! Why, I know lots of gays, they must be all over the place!

Homosexuality is very rare, but very loud and very favored by the left because they tend to work in left-heavy career areas (hollywood, for example). I remember when Premier used to run their "here's how many in Hollywood that died of AIDS this year" for several years running, an attempted tributed. 99% of them were dance instructors, hairdressers, clothing designers, or makeup artists. I think eventually they noticed that this was looking pretty embarrassingly stereotyped and stopped.

Chances are you've gone through life and met maybe one or two gays more than passing by on the street. You haven't showered with "many" gays. Chances are you haven't showered with any gays. And even if you did, they weren't clearly and famously gay, which is a pretty clear difference. If a guy could somehow slip on a woman costume and pretend to be a women, women wouldn't care if they showered together.

156 Hey, it's not a stereotype if it's TRUE.

157

10% of the Force Won't Reenlist? Good! If they're too scared of harmless homos, what are they going to do when a deadly enemy is trying to kill them? Throw on a dress and a wig and put their hands up? Let the Corporal Clinger's quit. We need gutsy people we can depend on in the military.

158 Even by the Census at most 1 1/2% are gay in the United States, yet we're continually bombarded with the idea that the world swarms with gays, they're everywhere!

Homos ARE "everywhere" in the sense that we are well distributed across all demographic groups -- popping up like dandelions in rich families, middle-income families, and poor families; in cities, suburbs, and the sticks; in educated and uneducated families; among honkies, spades, spics, and slopes; in atheist households, fundamentalist Bible-thumping ones, and the in-between "go to church on Christmas and Easter" ones.  Whatever the cause of homosexuality actually is, there's no evidence whatsoever that it tends to cluster in particular sectors of the population. (There may be some clustering involved with people who self-ID as "openly gay," but that's an acquired cultural identity and is distinct from the basic fact of being strongly attracted to the same sex and minimally attracted to the opposite sex.)

As to where those claimed figures of 10% or higher come from -- well, to be sure, wishful thinking and political motivations are part of it. But those percentages that you find implausibly high are also based, to some extent, on gay men counting up all the respectably married "straight" men with whom they've ever had a one-night-stand or an ongoing "sexbuddy" arrangement, and extrapolating from there.

I've said this before, but in my opinion, the main reason that gay marriage and gays in the military are so controversial is that everyone on both sides has some vague inkling that the visible B people in "LGBT", and specifically the rather small number of men who openly identify as B rather than G, represent just the tip of a much larger Treacherous Iceberg of Male Bisexuality. And everyone is understandably a bit reluctant to find out exactly how big the iceberg is, for fear that society would collapse into chaos if every guy with an occasional bi urge felt entirely free to act on it. (If 98% of the population were totally hetero, and 2% were totally homo, and there were no such thing as bisexuals, I'm pretty sure that we'd have had legalized same-sex marriage and open gays in the military decades ago.)

159 If they're too scared of harmless homos, what are they going to do when a deadly enemy is trying to kill them?

Dude.

160

I'm not so concerned about the exodus of (straight) personnel out of the military--it won't matter once we activate Skynet. 

However, once Skynet becomes self-aware, what will happen if it becomes self-aware and then realizes it's gay.

 

161 Sorry that was poorly worded. 

162 Toby - I'm not sure how to post links in comments, but google DADT and "poll" and you'll get various results. The most recent I saw was a Washington Post - ABC poll from July 2008 putting support of repeal at 75%. That 60-75% range has been pretty common over the past couple years in a variety of polls from conservative and liberal sources.

While gay marriage and civil union poll numbers have been in a fairly slow climb, DADT has shifted dramatically over the past decade and a half.

Throbert makes a good point. Gays must be expected to mold to the military rather than vice versa. And should there be a repeal, military culture and gays would be better served by treating it in an androphilic sense rather than contemporary gay identity. People possessed of a modern culturally gay identity are generally unsuitable for military service. They could try, but they'll be in for a world of trouble, and the military should not be shredded to cater to their delicate sensibilities.

Which is why a Republican president should've done this. Obama, I fear, will be utterly ham-fisted and typical identity/victim politic oriented if he attempts to repeal it, and that's the wrong way. He's going to put all the wrong people in charge.

Once again, conservatives had an opportunity to socialize a portion of the population, but they'd rather address the Wishing Fairy and hope gays will somehow fade away. Meanwhile, the Left uses gays as an excuse to deconstruct marriage, play social role-playing in the military, etc. Conservatives could've cut them off at the pass, but no. Gotta cater to the evangelicals and create stupid justifications for fighting a losing battle, surrendering the issue and ultimately ending up with more damage in the long and short term.

I just don't get it. Are gladiator movies really that scary?

163 People possessed of a modern culturally gay identity are generally unsuitable for military service. They could try, but they'll be in for a world of trouble, and the military should not be shredded to cater to their delicate sensibilities.

And therein lies the problem.

That is also why DADT makes a whole lot of sense, because at its root, DADT is basically making it clear that if you choose to act in a fashion consistent with a modern culturally gay identity, you may not serve in the military. If you don't act in a fashion consistent with a modern culturally gay identity, you won't run afoul of DADT.

The problem here is that the leftist gay community chooses to act in a fashion that is incompatible with the military, and then does its best to socialize all gay people into believing that they have to act that way. The question is whether the military needs to change to accomodate the leftist gay community, and that is an emphatic no. Hence, until the leftist gay community decides to clean up its act, the military should be under no requirement to accept gays.

164 The easy answer to this is co-ed showers.

If the military will allow all the guys and gals to shower together, then the guys will put up will the small minority of fellas eying their junk.

165 Gee Throbert, you've convinced me, most men are bisexual or have had at least one homosexual encounter in their past. Why, it must be true, the activists all say so!

Meanwhile the rest of male America looks at you like you have three heads.

166

127

so what's your point?

That you we're gay while in the Navy?  (shocka...)

That homos are exclusively monogomous?

You were gay, joined the military knowing what the military policy was on homo's - and somehow it's the military's fault you "had to lie for 10 years" about your "lifestyle"?

I hope you bite pillows better than you "make points"...

167 [i]If you don't act in a fashion consistent with a modern culturally gay identity, you won't run afoul of DADT.[/i]

This is untrue. Under DADT, there have been witch hunts executed against military members in good standing who did take pains to keep their private lives private. Something as simple as being forgetful in an e-mail has been grounds for expulsion.

That is by no means the imagined flaunting and flouncing envisioned when you reference the culturally gay Left.

As long as DADT exists in its current incarnation, valuable members of our military will be hounded out based on nothing more than the bigotry and overzealousness of certain people. Hell, right now all it takes is knowledge and a grudge to destroy a gay individual's military career.

Like I said, hating gays should not overtake love of one's country when it comes to the quality of our military. Unfortunately, that's not happening under DADT. It needs to change.

A disdain for the gay left and liberals at large should not be the primary motivating factor when it comes to judging what is best for the military and best for the country. If republicans and conservatives had repealed DADT on their own terms, I believe integration would have gone in a relatively smooth and orderly fashion, with a minimum of disruption. With Obama, I have no such confidence. I think it will be clumsy and accompanied by the typical liberal/PC social game-playing that is anathema to effective military culture.

All that potential damage, and for what? Disliking gays? Wanting to oppose Obama? Just being able to stick your tongue out at the gay Left? Is damaging our military worth that? I cannot see how any pro-military individual could say so.

Yet here we are. Because the gay thing is just about the only "principled" stand many Republicans have been willing to take over the past eight years. And it's a stand supported by a mere quarter of the voting population.

I've asked twice already, but one more won't hurt: What is it about gays that makes conservatives and Republicans go so dumb?

168 Under DADT, there have been witch hunts executed against military members in good standing who did take pains to keep their private lives private.

And under speeding laws, there have been illegally-written tickets. Doesn't mean we need to let everybody go 90 mph in a school zone because some people have screwed up the enforcement.

Like I said, hating gays should not overtake love of one's country when it comes to the quality of our military.

What I don't get is this: when men are barred from using womens' locker and shower facilities and vice versa, nobody says that this barring means that they "hate men" or "hate women". We as a society recognize and acknowledge that people may not like to be looked at naked by someone who may be sexually attracted to them, and that doing so can create problems even in the relatively-relaxed atmosphere of a health club or athletic facility. We acknowledge separation of the sexes in the military as necessary in all cases except extreme combat ones for that exact reason.

In short, you'd better enlighten me as to the superpowers we gays possess, RobbIie, because there has to be something underlying your argument that we should inconvenience and upset vast numbers of people who are already serving, in complete disregard for prior precedent and established effective military procedure, so that a tiny fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a population can have things reshaped to their convenience -- and that the removal of this convenience for that population is somehow drastically affecting the quality of our military.

In short, there are a lot of practical, pragmatic, and obvious reasons to keep DADT, and very few non-ideological ones to get rid of it.

169 To EMPORER PALPATINE OBAMA from SPURWING PLOVER i say SIC SEMPTER TYRANUS

170 JUDICIAL WATCH is already going after OBAMA for some of his shady dealing and some of his crinimal background

171

It's not just about showering together.  More importantly, it's about the fact that homosexuals are too effeminate and useless to serve effectively.  Homos can't even function in civilian society without affirmative action and NEA grants.  You can bet that any queer joining the military will be in reality an ACLU shill.

And, while we're on the subject, even if we manage to keep them out of the military, we still have to deal seriously with the damage they've done to our society as a whole.  Two examples:

1.  They've increased acceptance of the deindustrialization of America.  If a man doesn't have to be a man even sexually, why should he be a man in his job and be productive?  It's much easier to be a clerk or an artist.

2.  Speaking as a nerd, they've ruined nerd culture.  In the '50's and '60's, nerds were incredibly straight-laced and socially conservative, and trended right politically, even though they were not necessarily very religious.  They were always up on cutting-edge science and technology.  They read mostly hard science fiction and didn't like fantasy.  They were repulsed by pseudoscience, far more than the public at large.  Modern-day geeks, in contrast, include many self-identified homosexuals who color the whole subculture.  As a result, they introduce elements of "gayness" into nerd culture, so that modern-day nerds have little knowledge of science or tech and instead waste their time playing D&D and buying into phony religions like Wicca.  As a result we are losing our future generations of scientists.  Plus, the science fiction really sucks nowadays.

172 Ken, despite my strong suspicion that you are a moby of some sort,  I shall answer as if you are not.

One, if you were to tell people who know me that my hay-baling, ranch-working, college football-playing, pro rodeo competing, horse-breaking self was "too effeminate and useless", the sound you would hear would be of ribs shattering as they laughed themselves to death.

Two, I spent most of my working life to date in Texas, which has neither affirmative action for gays or NEA grants, and was able to function quite nicely in society. Indeed, my little neighborhood of staunch Baptists and NASCAR fans elected me neighborhood watch captain.

I've no doubt that the vast majority of queers you've seen nicely fit your stereotype, and I'll be the first to admit that quite a few do. However, there is a small, but increasingly vocal, minority of us that are sick of being closeted about our normal-ness out of fear of the hatemongering of the gender-twisted leftover hippie Democrat Party trash that constitutes Teh Ghey Community. Realize, at least, that we're out here.

Meanwhile, the reason American society is deindustrializing is because a) we have compulsory education that allows people to do things other than drive rivets for more or better pay and b) there is an entire world full of people out there who can do menial industrial work for a fraction of the price because they don't consider a 48" flatscreen TV with 150 cable channels to be a necessity of existence.

173 What a gossip. pass4sureThat's enough.,646-363I don't buy it.,MB6-509Come on.,BI0-122Happens all the time.,70-656What do you mean by that!,646-230Pervert! He is such a pervert! I saw him looking at me in the toilet.,646-562Carry out God's will.,642-383He's the same as always.,000-256Just made it. I was the 150th prize-winner!,310-200I wouldn't if I were you.,642-456What a disappointment.,920-805Stop looking for excuses.,642-426Don't play innocent. Don't play dumb.

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