1 Except that  in another cell phone video, you hear the officer holding him down say "Taze him!" right before the officer pulls out his revolver and fires combined with the fact that 2 months ago the BART police got new tasers that look, feel and operate just like pistols...

http://www.taser.org/m18l.html

And the fact that the officer looks stunned when the gun goes off.



Any other explanation (execution) makes no sense given that there were about 200 witnesses and the shot went into this lower right side.   

2

the BART police got new tasers that look, feel and operate just like pistols

Somebody said this was a bad idea, right? I mean, COME ON, PEOPLE.

3

Whitey's always keeping me down.

4 Nope Gbriel.  Apparently Taser manufacturers haven't caught on to the idea of risk assessment and  human factors engineering yet.

But they will as soon as they get sued over this for creating a hazardous situation.  In fact, I don't think this is the first time this has happened.

5 Looks like a mistake by the officer. The look on his face tells the whole story.

6 San Francisco is Whitey. There is no place, person, or thing that is Whiteyer.

And that's not a three-pound metal taser. Murderers (and their fans) like to lie.

7
A light handgun like a fully loaded Glock is about 30 ounces.

That Taser is about 18 ounces.

Almost twice as much but still close.  Especially in a tense situation.  Bad idea.

The guy who shot him is a fucking idiot.

Nothing like a bunch of fucking idiots yelling to help escalate the situation in the subway,  but still no excuse.

Very fucked up.

But I will never understand why you see something like this and go burn down a business.

8

San Francisco is Whitey. There is no place, person, or thing that is Whiteyer.

I dunno 'bout that.  I lived for a time in Duluth, Minnesota ... which is about as white as white can be.

9 The San Fransisco Chronicle sure endorses the idea of collective punishment... as long as it's directed towards whitey.

I remember some anarchists cut loose in some protest up in SF a few years back. The Comical was down with it until the Blackshirts started smashing up SF Chronicle vending machines. The horror, the horror...

10 Seems more like manslaughter than murder to me.  I'm not getting the intent.

I am getting a grossly-fucking-negligent vibe though.  That's still worth quite awhile in prison.

11 Can someone give me the timestamp of exactly when the shooting happens. Maybe I'm just blind, but i didn't actully see the shot

12 The TASER people are the dumbest, most irresponsible assholes on the planet.

Check out this TASER youtube vid (takes about 10 sec. to start)?

13 Mistake.  Bad mistake.  His reaction tells you.  I see the gross-negligent thing too, not murder.

14

I swear I saw a Palestinian flag in the crowd when wathcing live coverage of the riots.  I also remember thinking that some of those getting arrested looked like G8 and WTO anarchists (white punks).  

Add to that a town that will burn itself for losing a football game, and you are left with a sad display of violence instead of a peaceful protest.  

15 The reason Tasers are shaped the way they are is because it is ergonomic to point and shoot them.

Most departments have the officers carry Taser's on the weak side, while their service weapon is on the strong side. Proper training will keep you from mixing the two up.

16

I suspect it was a mistake- but the cop still needs to go to jail for negligent homicide.

Cops need to be held to a higher standard- not a lower one.  Had any average citizen accidentally shot someone because they couldn't tell the difference between a tazer and a firearm, you can bet your ass they'll be in prison. Being a cop should not earn one a free pass.

A tazer doesn't look, feel or weigh the same as a pistol.  The cops who got them 2 months prior were told to wear them on the opposite side of where they keep their gun to avoid such mistakes.  And even then, a tazer isn't a toy to be used at the slightest provocation- there were what, four cops there?  They really couldn't subdue one drunk?

Even if a mistake, it was a grossly negligent one that cost someone their life.

17

All our cops carry the Taser in a crossdraw rig, and they're bright yellow.  Don't know how you could mistake the two. 

Manslaughter - probably he pleads down to negligent homicide and does a few years.

18

  Manslaughter?  I'm no lawyer, but isn't there a lesser charge?  Maybe "criminally negligent homicide"?  Or is that just a fancy name for "manslaughter"?

  My uneducated opinion's always been that murder is when you intend to kill someone, manslaughter is when you intend to hurt someone and they die, and criminally negligent homicide is when you're doing something negligent (driving on the wrong side of the road, driving drunk, throwing cinder blocks off an overpass, etc.) and unintentionally kill someone.

  The guy's only a two-year cop, so I would think he could make a valid case that he mistakenly grabbed his glock when he meant to grab the taser.  Unless there's evidence that he reacted in anger to something the victim said or did, which MIGHT be used to try and prove "intent to harm" that would kick it up to manslaughter.  From the way he nonchalantly rose up and pulled out his gun, I believe that either he's colder than Al Gore's heart, or that he grabbed the glock by mistake.

  But, yeah.  The whole image of a San Francisco cop calmly standing up and putting a round into a prone, handcuffed suspect who's NOT fighting like a skinned cat is creepy.

19 Never bring a set of handcuffs to a gunfight.

20

I'm not knowledgable about Tazers, but you would think an easy way to avoid something like this would to make them shoot like a Star Trek phaser instead of a standard pistol.

Maybe sell a pistol shaped Tazer to Suzy Housewife for self protection, but give a properly trained cop a product that is impossible to confuse with a handgun.

****

And on the actual rioting, I've never understood it. People riot because they want to riot. No sympathy. No "underlying causes" needed. "Whiff of grapeshot" and all that suits me just fine.

****

And on the Chronicle. Barbed cock of Satan suits me just fine with them as well. May they, they PI, and NY Times be mere memories a year or two from now. (Or even better, bought out by Murdoch and turned into tabloids.)

21

I live in the Bay Area and I work in SF. I also take BART to work everyday, right through downtown Oakland. All of us where acutely aware of this the other day when we were going home from work while Fruitvale BART was closed down due to this protest.

There is no excuse for a mob of raging lunatics, and I don't give a crap about "racial justice".

This demo started out relatively peacefully until the Revolutionary Communist Party got involved. RCP runs a bookstore in Berkeley called Revolution Books. About 40 people involved with that bookstore were the instigators of the rioting that began later. The SF Chron has widely quoted people affiliated with the bookstore expressing satisfaction and glee over this destructive temper tantrum.

They all should be investigated by the FBI and charged with felony incitement to riot.

This is the tactic of the Left here. Any excuse to go on a rampage will do, as we have seen dozens and dozens of times with "anti-war" protests. When the war began, SF had more than 10,000 in the streets protesting. Now, the Left, thru the Workers World Party (ANSWER) and the RCP (World Can't Wait) have co-opted the protest movement, thus only a couple hundred show up for their marches now.

This protest at BART may have started as a real, genuine, protest to make BART aware how upset people were. Two things happened that turned that into what we saw on the street: 1. RCP and it's (white) agitators who egged the more violent prone black young men to go on a rampage, and 2. the usual black rabble rousers in Oakland who will use any excuse to act up and vandalize property.

There were over 100 black men murdered in Oakland in 2008. Where were the marches then? Same in 2007, and in 2006.

ANSWER  and "black bloc" are having a pro-Gaza, or rather Hate the Jews protest tomorrow in SF Civic Center. I fully expect there to be yet another rampage in downtown SF.

 

22 E of J, hollowpoint and bill all mentioned the "negligent homicide" thing while I was writing my post @ 18.  Guess I should have been quicker.

23
Doesn't meet the definition of gross negligence. A person acts with gross negligence when the way
he or she acts is so different from the way an ordinarily careful person would act in the same situation that his or her act amounts to disregard for human life or indifference to the consequences of
that act.

Gross negligence involves more than ordinary carelessness, inattention, or mistake in judgment.

24 "And even then, a tazer isn't a toy to be used at the slightest provocation- there were what, four cops there?  They really couldn't subdue one drunk?"

Hollowpoint, I wonder that myself every other episode of Cops. 

I don't know what the statistics are though.   Physical force or tazers, any numbers out there on their relative rates of injury and death?

25

  And Hollowpoint wins the thread with the observation in #16:  The situation hadn't graduated to one where a taser was even needed when the officer shot the guy.  He was lying face down, with the cuffs on, and the other officer had his knee on or near the victim's neck.  I'm wondering if this guy wasn't lipping off to the officer and the frustrated cop wasn't just going to let him "ride the lightning" for awhile to teach him a lesson about how NOT to react to a police officer.

  Well, I'm sure he learned his lesson.  I'm about....oh, let's say....100% sure that this guy will NEVER get himself into a situation where a police officer will ever have to arrest him ever again.  I'm sure his survivors will take some comfort in that, at least.

26 I'm really not getting the "It was a mistake!" line of thinking.

Let me get this straight. This tool mistakenly pulled a firearm on an unarmed, restrained man. Then he mistakenly aimed it at his back. Then he mistakenly pulled the trigger.

Right.

27 Um wow.

It's got to be mistake, albeit one this guy has to be held criminally accountable for. It's not murder but it's not something you get to walk from with an oops.

Damn, that's just fucked up.

28 Plover in Every Pot:  Could you consider the officer going to the taser WAY too early in the situation to be "gross negligence"?

29 What is this Taser thingy? My department won't issue taser's to 3000 police that work in the ghetto. They know better. They'd get complaints everyday about someone being "tazed". We'd probable use them on dogs and cats just for fun.
Nope, all we have are 40 cals, pepper spray and a knight stick.
I hope the other cops in the vid gave that kid shit for shooting his weapon with other officers so close. That could have been a Polish firing squad.

30 Plover Pot and Russ, I could very easily be wrong but I thought homicide requires intent, manslaughter is lesser (as in unlawful killing).

Again, I'm not sure but I think criminally negligent manslaughter is the standard charge against people like doctors and police officers who have been strenuously trained to be careful.

31

XBradTC is dead on.  I've carried both and I believe all cops are required to carry the tazer on their weak side in a thigh holster and their service weapon on their hip on the strong side.

From what I see, it looks like an accidental firing but since there is truly no such thing since you have to be really screwed up to draw with your finger on the trigger, in reality though, when I wore my M9 in a thigh holster (Uncle Mikes, forget the Blackhawks), coming out fast I'm not sure if I would have my finger on the trigger..just being honest. 

Rookie move on the cop's part.  Shitty thing overall.

32 CTD, just because it's a mistake, doesn't mean that the cop shouldn't do time.  I just think that the evidence appears to indicate that he grabbed his glock when he thought he was grabbing his taser.  It's not a "no harm, no foul" situation, but he's not exactly Charles Fucking Manson.  If it comes out that he was enraged with the guy, or that he's joked about shooting some "darkie" who lipped off to him to teach all the others in the surrounding crowd a lesson, then that'll come out in the investigation.  I think the videos of the crime make a pretty good case that it was criminal negligence, not intent to kill.

33 I don't like cops carrying tasers, and I don't like cops carrying pepper spray.

I DO like the old, old school cops who would smack you silly if you got out of line, unless you needed stickwork or a bullet.

Cops back then could FIGHT, and make short work of most garden variety punks, which would unfortunately seem to describe the late Mr. Grant.

Don't see too many cops like that anymore, most are so hampered with 'utility belt' equipment and shiny smooth leather shoes they end up sounding like a Christmas tree when they get knocked over.

Which sucks, 'cause if the bums aren't afraid of the cops they sure aren't gonna be afraid of my scrawny a$$.

34 "Negligence" generally refers to inaction.

See: this definition.

Given the willful nature of the act (the officer clearly intended to do SOMETHING), this will almost have to be classed as "manslaughter."

35
He mistakenly pulled his firearm instead of his taser. He mistakenly pulled the trigger when he meant to just put his finger on it. And where else would he point the taser at?

Anyway, it's not involuntary manslaughter, either.

36

San Francisco is Whitey. There is no place, person, or thing that is Whiteyer.

I dunno 'bout that.  I lived for a time in Duluth, Minnesota ... which is about as white as white can be.

*cough*Oklahoma*cough*

37

Anyone who has been following this story and event knows that what happened was a demonstration was held at the station where the event took place. A group of the participants broke away from the demonstrators and traveled down 14^th street towards Broadway (moving uptown) trashing cars and businesses and generally just doing an uncontrolled riot.

 

It turns out that these rioters were actually a communist group from San Francisco who came over to Oakland to create trouble. That was their intent the entire time. It had nothing to do with the shooting which was just used as an excuse.

38

Somebody's gotta say it, and I'm a hater, so I guess I'll do it. 

No, he didn't deserve to get killed, but if the little dumbass hadn't been getting his rage on, he wouldn't have been in a position where he ended up getting shot while arrested, and in the cosmic balance, this event is probably a slight net positive. 

39 Anybody know what sort of weapon the cops out there carry? And what sort of trigger pull they have?
Ours Glocks come with a 12lb pull. They're called "New York" triggers. They went with the heavier pull so the police wouldn't have accidental discharges.
I would love to hear what the other police on that scene are saying about it.

40
One, I am not a police officer, so I could not testify as to the practices of police officers.

It's nice to say he should be charged with this and that, but it has to be California law (unless he is acquitted and then the feds screw him and charge him with a civil rights violations)

I already posted the definition of gross negligence.

It doesn't seem to fall under manslaughter either if he mistakenly grabbed his taser:

An unlawful killing caused by a willful act
done with full knowledge and awareness that the person is endangering the life of another, and done in conscious disregard of that risk, is voluntary manslaughter or murder.

An unlawful killing resulting from a willful act committed without intent to kill and without conscious disregard of the risk to human life is
involuntary manslaughter.

41 So's we can pretend to be the moron version of the Volokh Conspiracy:

"Black’s Law Dictionary with Pronunciations, sixth edition defines the following terms: manslaughter, involuntary, and accidental killing. It states manslaughter as "the unjustifiable, inexcusable and intentional killing of a human being without deliberation, premeditation and malice." The definition continues to include "the unlawful killing of a human without deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due causation and circumspection" (1992, p. 964). Specifically, the defining of the term involuntary "is that which is performed under duress, force, or coercion" (1992, p. 827). Accidental killing on the other hand is in contrast to involuntary. It is defined as "an act which is lawful and lawfully done under a reasonable belief that no harm is possible" (1992, p. 16)."

From Here.

"Involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due causation and circumspection" seems to fit what I see in the video, assuming the cop was a shocked by what he did as he appears to me to be.

42 Plover, you beat me to it, several times.

Oh, well.

43

Is the safety on a taser the same as on a Glock?  I'm assuming tasers have safeties.  Seems it'd be easy enough to put the safety on the opposite side of a taser to differentiate the two.

Regardless, I do think tasers are overused, primarily because police are hesitant to use physical force against a perp.  It's just too easy to end a career because of a bad camera angle or a video clip out of context. 

44

He was lying face down, with the cuffs on, and the other officer had his knee on or near the victim's neck. 

 "BART spokesman Jim Allison said the victim was not restrained" - SFChron. 

Clearly you* don't know what you're talking about - the Police have stated that he was not restrained.  Your eyes are decieving you.  Only believe what the Police tell you, nothing more.

Secondly, the BART cop remains free.  Murder, Manslaughter, Criminally Negligent Homocide, doesn't matter - he hasn't been arrested or charged with anything.

_{*you - in a generic sense - not necessarily directed towards poster}

45 From the Alameda County DA:

"There are many possibilities, he said: His office could find no basis for criminal charges; the office could file involuntary manslaughter charges if Mehserle exercised gross negligence, voluntary manslaughter if Mehserle reasonably believed that he was acting in self-defense or murder if Mehserle acted with malice and forethought."

46 Glocks don't have an external safety. Pull the trigger far enough and it goes boom.

47

Is the safety on a taser the same as on a Glock?  I'm assuming tasers have safeties.  Seems it'd be easy enough to put the safety on the opposite side of a taser to differentiate the two.

They don't have external safties; they're a double action only pistol, meaning that it takes a relatively long, hard pull on the trigger.  It does have a trigger safety that prevents it from firing unless the trigger is actually pulled.

48 And how good a shot are you with a 12 fucking pound trigger pull, Jubal?  Does it piss you off that you are trusted enough to be allowed to carry a weapon, but then again, you're an idiot, so we'll make the trigger so heavy that Lenny from Of Mice and Men would say, "Fuck, George!  I can't pull it!"

49 Counter, that's a very interesting article, for many details:

'An attorney in Mastagni's office, Christopher Miller, confirmed the resignation Wednesday, saying Mehserle had the support of the BART Police Officers' Association.'

Sigh.

'Burris called the shooting "unconscionable" and said the $25 million claim alleges wrongful death and violation of civil rights by use of excessive force. Read the claim (PDF)

BART has 45 days to respond, he said. If the authority rejects the claim, he will file a civil lawsuit, said Burris, who served as Rodney King's co-counsel in King's civil case against the Los Angeles Police Department in the 1990s.'

Sigh.

'Burris said he is pushing Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff to press second-degree murder charges, or involuntary manslaughter charges if evidence suggests that Mehserle mistook his gun for a Taser, he said.

"No one wants to believe a cop would just kill somebody like that," he said. "My view is, this is criminal conduct, period." '

And, finally, is this Burris related to Blago's Burris?

Sigh.

50

Accidental.

51 notropis: I'm looking at the California jury instructions which define the crimes.

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/jury/criminaljuryinstructions/

counter: the DA sez he could find no basis for criminal charges but goes on to say that these decisions take weeks not days. Seems contradictory.

52 First, this is awful as shit and my heart goes out to his family, really. The cop's too.

Second, whatever he gets charged with nobody is ever going to convince me that was intentional. Nobody is that stupid. It would have happened in a back ally somewhere.

Third, nothing....NOTHING justifies the rioting......NOTHING.

53 Not done yet... needs more shooting to quiet up those rioters.

54

Is the safety on a taser the same as on a Glock?  I'm assuming tasers have safeties.  Seems it'd be easy enough to put the safety on the opposite side of a taser to differentiate the two.

As Jubal and Hollowpoint stated above, Glocks have no external safeties, save for the trigger safety. Tasers have an external safety, that you flip with your thumb. Doing this powers up the weapon and also activates a targeting laser.

55 Oh and for the record....white is a color....in fact it's a combination of all colors. So whites are people of color. Never mind that white people aren't actually white.

56 How you respond to injustice reveals character. Next time my wife misunderstands me I am going to bust a storefront window of the local Indian restaurant. So I can "frequently targeting the businesses and prized possessions of people of color."

57

It turns out that these rioters were actually a communist group from San Francisco who came over to Oakland to create trouble. That was their intent the entire time. It had nothing to do with the shooting which was just used as an excuse.

 

I have often wondered if there is a way to identify the members of this communist group, and make life difficult for them. Call it Moron COINTELRO.

58 #48 Actually, I'm a pretty good shot. Never had to shoot anybody yet. You get used to the heavy pull because that's all you train with. A friend of mine, from another dept, and I went shooting and I used his Ruger (forget the model). It had a very light trigger pull. Needless to say, all my shots were very low.
They don't trust us with shotguns in every car either.

59

Glocks don't have an external safety. Pull the trigger far enough and it goes boom.

Say what? My Glock 17 (9mm) most certainly does.

60 Here's the entire section involving Orloff:

Orloff said Wednesday that his investigation will focus primarily on what led to the shooting.

Some homicides are lawful, he noted. In this case, Orloff said, "the part that needs dissecting is what, if anything, can be determined about the mental state of the actor," meaning the officer.

There are many possibilities, he said: His office could find no basis for criminal charges; the office could file involuntary manslaughter charges if Mehserle exercised gross negligence, voluntary manslaughter if Mehserle reasonably believed that he was acting in self-defense or murder if Mehserle acted with malice and forethought.

"Our function is to determine whether or not criminal charges should be filed against the officer," he said. "These things are usually an issue of weeks rather than days."

I looked through and don't see anything else from the DA in the article.  I don't see the contradiction, he's just listing the four possible outcomes.  1. No charges.  2. Grossly negligent involuntary manslaughter.  3. Voluntary manslaughter from mistaken self-defense. 4. Murder, requiring malice aforethought.

I'm sticking with 2 and I bet that's what he'll charge.  1 is out, it's obviously an unlawful killing.  3 is out, no way self defense is reasonable.  4 is out because unless (like Russ mentioned) some evidence comes out that he had it in for this guy or wanted to kill someone at random, you can't get intent.

61

Oh, you don't mean the trigger safety. My bad.

62 Looks to me like his finger was on the trigger before he realized it actually was a lethal weapon, rather than a tazer. Unfortunately, it was also probably a glock which has the only safety in the trigger and a rather light trigger pull as I understand it.

63 I agree with a previous comment, Grossly negligent involuntary manslaughter. Unless more information comes out.

64 #59 My old service weapon was a Glock 17. It doesn't have any external safety. Our service weapons now are Glock 22 (40cal). No external safety.

65 #61 didn't post fast enough....point taken

66 See , this is why only law enforcement can be trusted with firearms. You proles would probably be shooting each other over every traffic hassle and can't be trusted to use responsible judgement like we can.

67 "Racial injustice"?  In the Age of Obama?  HEY!  Ya know what would have happened if this involved a WHITE vicitm?  Think there would have been riots?
Those bothers better learn to chill.  The Age Of Oppression won't sell any more.
Sorry, but if you want to come kick my butt for your supposed 'grievances', just remember, there aren't many problems that can't be solved with either a $20 bill or a .45 bullet.  And I carry both.

68 Turns out this John Burris (Grant's family's and Rodney King's attorney) is a former prosecutor from Illinois.

He's almost got to be Roland's younger brother.

(Not that that has anything to do with the cop's actions, but it is a curious fact, nonetheless, which doesn't make me respect the soon-to-be Junior Senator more.)

69

I have often wondered if there is a way to identify the members of this communist group, and make life difficult for them

 

The news article this morning from the SF Chronicle (of all people) identified them as belonging to some “front bookstore” over in SF. So they know who they are. Like I said, the rioting had NOTHNG to do with the shooting. This is just another example of the commies and anarchists out there trying to create general unrest.

 

What should happen is that the bookstore gets raided and everyone of them are arrested and charged with conspiracy to overthrow local government. Basically charge them with treason and attempted violent revolution.

70 Hmm, a little more digging, and apparently the Burrises are not related.

Just a strange cosmic coincidence.

71 Ah, home sweet home.

The whole image of a San Francisco cop calmly standing up and putting a round into a prone, handcuffed suspect who's NOT fighting like a skinned cat is creepy.

Not an SF cop. This was in Oakland, but it was a BART cop. BART goes through many cities.

72 Live the Thug Life, die the Thug Death.  Even if it was an accident, it is still good shooting.

73 Bluntly, even after seeing that video I'm vastly more afraid of the gangbangers in Oakland and elsewhere than the police force.
In the 24 hours that contained the murder of Grant, gang members in America murdered about 16 to 19 people. I guess I missed the riots and looting those murders provoked. And the number of people killed by police (not murdered, but simply killed) is estimated at about 200, or less than one per day. Let's assume (outrageously) that half of those are really murders, not righteous killings. The gangs still win by 30/40 to 1. 
And the whiners who complained that the violence should have been directed against whites seem to have failed to notice that Mehserle is officially listed as Hispanic by the force.

74 More evidence that strict gun control laws are needed after 8 years of failed Bu$hitler-Cheneyburtonwater policies.

75 I just watched some of the other videos on You Tube ...man it seemed like the onlookers were "stirring the pot" in the events that led up to the shooting...a lot of yelling and "lookie loos" on the scene...

76

...Glocks have no external safeties, save for the trigger safety. Tasers have an external safety, that you flip with your thumb. Doing this powers up the weapon and also activates a targeting laser.

Posted by: Sean O at January 09, 2009 06:32 PM (lUEso)

I'm familiar with Glocks but not with Tasers. If the above descriptions of safeties and carry policies are correct, that makes this an execution. Or, at the very least, one truly dumbass cop who never should've worn the uniform.

And I'm not sorry if I offend any of you LEOs out there. Your ranks contain some of the biggest assholes on planet earth.

BTW -- my grandfather was a Pennsylvania State Policeman.

77 You pull a gun out of a holster, you had better know what you are doing.  You had better be well trained and practiced because you are responsable for what happens.

78 #76 No offense taken.........Just don't ever call 911.....would'nt want some asshole cop to show up at your house.

79 I thought tazers were kept in the inside vest just below the breast and not in the hip holster. No, I think this officer fucking snapped because of the extreme stress of the moment and the "we want justice" motherfucking liberals in the crowd agitating the situation. Just my opinion.

80
The sheer ignorance in the majority of these posts is...stunning.

81 The sheer ignorance in the majority of these posts is...stunning.

What's your take flat foot?

82 Let it be a lesson. Defy the cops, test their response, risk your ass. Don't cry if they shoot your ass off.

83 1x Total fuckup.
1x Tragedy.
36,000,000x Stirring up shit.

That's pretty much the news every day.

84
Ace, your headline is pretty foolish and reeks of Liberal nuttah fevah.  You really should stop listening to Allahpundit so much.  He is an idiot for the tone of his post and you swiping the same tone makes you one, too.

85 Uh oh, the last time I played pretend internet lawyer here, thebronze schooled my ass over what constitutes incitement.

I'd be curious to hear your take on this, given your experience.

86 Oscar was a THUG and criminal. My youngest son's girlfriend was attacked on a Bart train by an "Oscar"....because she was white [she's actually from Spain but when you have the brain pan of a rodent an Oscar.......]
 Y-A-W-N.
 Good for the cop...although it was obviously an accident, but hey Ace, did you ever think that maybe someone's life was saved because good old Oscar got his just deserts, hm?
 Now if they would just shoot all the other dirt bags that are rioting I'm guessing the rioting rates would go way way down.......
 I completely agree with #84...allah is an idiot and it seems to be rubbing off on you.

87 Good for the cop...

Wow, that's just fucking repellent.  You know who's probably not saying "Good for the cop"?  The very cop in question.  I'd say there's a not insignificant chance that he commits suicide.

88

Wow, that's just fucking repellent.  You know who's probably not saying "Good for the cop"?  The very cop in question.  I'd say there's a not insignificant chance that he commits suicide.

That's equally disgusting. Get a clue.

89 Counter.....the cop wouldn't even be thinking along those lines except for all the whiny lefties posing as thinking people [like you obviously] who are calling this "murder".That cop had to deal with these complete wastes of skin every day...you think he would feel overly guilty except for people like you?
 Grow the fuck up.....what? You would have little Oscar staying at your house with your wife and kids? Give me your address and I will be sure to send some your way....unless of course you are just all bullshit.............
 The only real tragedy in all of this will be what the poor cop has to go through...once again thanks to whiners like you.

90 ErikW, how in the world is that disgusting?

I think this was accidental.  If it was, the guy has a dead person on his conscience, he's being blamed for riots and his family is getting deaththreats.  Yeah, that's a suicide risk.

91 christmasghost, you're a moral midget, I find you abhorrent.

92 Counter...right back at you. You are a sanctimonious ass.
 First off...are you a cop? No?didn't think so.
 this comment of yours just says it all...."I think this was accidental."
Just "think"? But you are more than willing to give an illiterate [by choice] gang banger that ruins every life he touches the benefit of the doubt that he was a saint in training right?
 You are the mental midget here....and perhaps also only 12 as you don't seem to have much real life experience.

93 christmasghost, you have the reading comprehension to match your barely literate writing style.

94

Yeah, that's a suicide risk.

Really? THAT'S being a pussy! Don't let you're friends choose death. Are you a fucking coward?

95 good grief counter...do you read your own posts. sometimes it's too funny....

96 What?  What?  What?

I have no idea what you're saying ErikW.

97 christmasghost, my mistake, you're just too fucking stupid to talk to.

98 counter...then don't.
 ace...have you read all the "pig" comments over at hot air nellie central?
 would any of you want to be in a cop's shoes these days? think about it before you start running your ignorant mouths....

99 christmasghost, I'll call you the Apostate! tonight.  We don't have cops shoot people in this country, no matter how much they deserve it in the moral sense, unless it is necessary at the time.  If they're legally deserving of death they can get a needle later after many people have considered and signed off on it.

That being said, the riots that followed are a prime example of "necessary at the time," if there were any cops or property owners looking to stop them.

Erik, counter looks to me to be expressing empathy for the cop, not dumping on him, so chill.

100 methos...and i'll accept that. you see i don't for a moment think that cop meant to shoot him with a gun...but with a tazer.
 are you going to declare a fatwa against me late just for laughs too?

101 Thanks Methos, I thought the fact that I had four or five previous comments arguing this was involuntary manslaughter might shield me from being considered a cop-hating anarchist.

102 No, we've just been throwing around the word "Apostate!" to cut the tension the last couple of nights.  Your comment at 92 suggests more enthusiasm for the shooting than I'm comfortable with.

I may have overinterpreted, as that's kind of my feeling for Palestinian/Muslim "civilians." 

You may want to take a look at all the comments here-I don't think anyone used the word "pig" until you did.  At worst, I think there's been criticism that if the cop is carrying both lethal and non-lethal weapons, he needs to be sure which he's drawing in a situation that didn't call for deadly force.  What he's charged with or not is academic for us, though I would worry that there'll be prosecutorial overreach to appease the mob.

103

Sorry.  This is not murder.  You can see it is certainly an 'oh shit' moment, a 'what the fuck did I just do' thing.  Whatever the Bart cop thought he was going to do, whatever he did, he did not mean to kill anyone.

Having said that, he should well pay the consequences for what it is that he is determined to have done.

104 would any of you want to be in a cop's shoes these days? think about it before you start running your ignorant mouths....

You're right. So we should celebrate the fact that he accidentally killed someone.

"But you are more than willing to give an illiterate [by choice] gang banger that ruins every life he touches the benefit of the doubt that he was a saint in training right?"

"Good for the cop...although it was obviously an accident, but hey Ace, did you ever think that maybe someone's life was saved because good old Oscar got his just deserts, hm?
Now if they would just shoot all the other dirt bags that are rioting I'm guessing the rioting rates would go way way down......"

Just deserts -- shot by accident in the back --, by a cop who probably feels like shit for accidentally shooting someone. But you're just happy as shit, because this guy was killed.

"Someone's life was saved because good old Oscar got his just deserts."

I guess I missed where this guy was convicted of murder, or otherwise "justly deserved" to die. Maybe you can point us to where he was convicted and sentenced to death in court? Or maybe you are just smarter than the US legal system, and are willing to hand out death sentences to people you don't like. Sorry, but "christmasghost," I only invest those sorts of unilateral, extra-legal decisions in one God, and you ain't it.

We all profess to love the "rule of law," unless, of course, we just think someone whom we don't like deserves to die, and we're willing to excuse someone who accidentally offs someone we've never met, and who has never been sentenced to death, but we think deserves to die anyway.

Nope. "He accidentally killed a person I think is scum" deserves exactly the same legal treatment as "he accidentally killed a person I think is a saint."

You're bigoted view of the late Mr. Grant is completely inconsequential to the case.

105 Man, these last few comments have cheered me up.

I'm a different strokes for different folks sort of guy but christmasghost creeps me out.

106

"11 Can someone give me the timestamp of exactly when the shooting happens. Maybe I'm just blind, but i didn't actully see the shot"

 

It looks like 1:17 then the officers stand up quickly.

The officer in the back seems to do the shooting.

107

I don't believe this was anything other than an accident, mostly because of the reaction of the officer at the time, and because of how insanely stupid it would be to simply execute someone under those circumstances. 

However, after reading some posts, I'm having a hard time understanding the nature of this accident.

I initially assumed the officer drew his weapon to threaten the victim, had his finger on the trigger, it had a light pull, and he discharged the weapon unintentionally.  If it's true that the Glock requires a pretty substantial pull, it would make it hard to argue that the discharge wasn't intentional-- even if you are used to it, my limited experience with weapons without external safeties would suggest that you need to make a good commitment to that trigger to get it to do what you want. 

And it would seem that suggesting that he mixed up his taser and pistol would be out of bounds.  A previous poster mentioned that the taser has a safety which has to be released to power up the unit.  This, the size and weight, and the placement of the two holsters would put mixing up weapons almost beyond belief to me. 

I think I'm leaning toward the type of accident in which the officer, perhaps through inexperience and frustration and stress, shut his brain off and did the unthinkable. 

Question to those AoS friends in the force:  Is there any reason for this officer to stand up and draw his weapon at that point?  I would assume that would be the very last thing you would want to do under those circumstances, but I'd like to know what police training would advise. 

108 "You're bigoted view"

Jeez, louise. I hope my point isn't as inarticulate as my delivery. Let's try: "Your bigoted view."

109

Don't sweat it, notropis, their not going to catch it anyway.

I mean, there not going to catch... oh, damn.

110 Does it piss you off that you are trusted enough to be allowed to carry a weapon, but then again, you're an idiot...

This is the logic behind the Beretta DAO Centurian autoloader. [DAO = Double Action Only].

111 I have seen the video and from the reaction you see on the cop's face, it was obviously an accident.  I believe he thought he was using his tazer and was surprised when he actually shot the guy.  His actions after the shooting bear this out; he resigned his position on the force, nearly immediately.

The stress that a police officer feels in situations like this is unlike the stress any of us ever feel in our day to day lives.

The family of the victim should be compensated for the cop's negligence, and I pray for the poor man's soul, but nothing will bring him back, now.  Don't forget, two lives were ruined that day, the man who was killed, needlessly, and the man who shot him, who will have to live with this on his conscience the rest of his life.

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