1 Where is my unicorn!!!!????

2 If one more person refers to tax cuts as a government "cost" I will pull a Gotti.

3 Jayne Cobb at January 09, 2009 11:37 AM (+MtXg)

Oh he's coming, but that horn will not be quite where you'd like it to be.

More government spending has never, ever, produced economic growth. It's impossible for it to happen.

4 Were it not for this, I would've been prepared to defend the overall Bush Legacy for the rest of time.

But he blew it with this.  I can't defend the indefensible.  Any defense I could dredge up for the man would now have to relate to specific points, but with this act, he has lowered my evaluation of his Presidency into the negatives.  It's really a shame.

Qwinn

5 @2: I'll provide the acid.

6 Again, explain to me how spending improves anything. It's not like we haven't been spending wildly for the last, oh 30 years as it is. If it were just a matter of spending or even spending 'the right way', we'd never have a recession.

7 There is light at the beginning of the tunnel.

8 OK, so doing the math, $775 Bazillion divided by 300 Million means that each US citizen should be getting a check in the amount of ...$2583 (and some change).  Counting the Missus and the two young-uns, I figure I can expect an economic stimulus check in the neighborhood of $10, 333.  I could stimulate the economy with that kind of moolah!  When are they being mailed?

9 The trillions are going to be spent. There's no sense even arguing about that now. I've been hoping that the GOP leadership would at least work to try to limit the waste and fraud, but that now seems unlikely as well. It's disgusting.

10 Sad to think that 55% of Americans don't realize THEY are paying for this...or their children will. Sickening.

11 These are the same people that support folks that make comments like this about tax cuts.

From Yahoo:

One tax provision would provide a $500 tax cut for most workers and $1,000 for couples, at a cost of about $140 billion to $150 billion over two years. The individual tax cuts may be awarded through withholding less from worker paychecks, effectively making them about $10 to $20 larger each week.

Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., said he doubted that a modest tax cut would change consumers' spending habits.

"In tough times people don't respond all that well to marginal changes, such as a small amount of money added per paycheck," Wyden said.

Sure, $40-80 extra per month is worthless to the U.S. worker. Much better spent on "infrastructure" and "energy conversion":

Sen John Kerry, D-Mass., said, "I'd rather spend the money on the infrastructure, on direct investment, on energy conversion, on other kinds of things that much more directly, much more rapidly and much more certainly create a real job."

-- Uh huh...

12 Kris G at January 09, 2009 11:48 AM (7GZEI)

~50% of people don't pay taxes. So, no, they will not be paying for it.

13 Ace is right this poll is bad news generally but there is a silver lining.  Gallup also asked about 4 specific features of the plan:

1. "Income tax cuts of $500 for individuals and $1,000 for couples for most Americans" (72 favor, 22 oppose)
2. "Tax cuts for businesses in order to help save and create jobs" (75 favor, 20 oppose)
3. "Creating new jobs with major new spending on the nation's infrastructure, such as bridges, highways, and power grids" (78 favor, 18 oppose)
4. "Providing federal money to state governments that are facing budget shortfalls" (49 favor, 42 oppose)

The first two items were phrased in terms of tax cuts (even though we really know #1 isn't a tax cut, it's a transfer payment) and there is strong support for this.  So contrary to what our liberal opponents would have us believe, tax cuts as an idea still remain popular.

But IMO the best news is the almost even split on #4.  Perhaps people understand that giving money to state governments is really just thinly-disguised cronyism and pandering to political machines.  Which is good news. 

14 Just remember: After every Nixon and Carter, there comes a Reagan. (at least so far...)

15 Do something! Do something!

What are you complaining about Ace?  This is exactly what you were screaming but a short time ago.  Snidely pointing your fingers at others for this just screams of hypocrisy.  MM was right then and MM is right now.  You and Bush have pre-socialized the economy.  Well done, comrade.

16 @14: Okay, but we can't count on it.  We have to look for our next Reagan.  Look, after FDR and Truman, we got Eisenhower, who was certainly a great man but he wasn't a small-government conservative.

17 53% charge everything every month, so it makes sense that they approve of adding debt, and pushing it down the road.  It is this thinking that gave us all of those home loans that couldn't be matched with the reality of making payments.  It is called FRANKSENSE...

18

It makes it politically difficult to advance the point that this is unwise and socialistic when our outgoing head of the party was pretty keen on a lot of this?

No it doesn't.  While I've supported Bush on most everything over the past 8 years he was flat out wrong last year on this issue.  I can't figure it out and I haven't heard anyone else offer any reasonable explanation as to why.  Doesn't matter, he still is wrong.  And the future will show that he remains wrong on this issue.

The only humor in this will be when the lefties realize they voted for change and got Bush's third term cubed instead.

19 Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.  (Except for jihadists, of course, but I have some doubts about some of them, too.)

Anyway, what happens without the gazillion dollar stimulus plan that 53% of us think is such a swell idea?

I read somewhere that FDR's New Deal failed move the U.S. economy, because he didn't spend enough money.  Only until the extraordinary deficit spending of WWII, did the economy turn around.  Hence Obama's epic spending plan.

I dunno.

20

Obama was quoting Krugman in his press conference this morning saying that his plan wasn't big enough!  Krugman, the ultimate Keynesean, wants more "stimulus" and Obama said he is willing to listen.  Paul fucking Krugman.

The nutroots are in charge.  We're fucked.

21 I fucking want to vomit.  Who the fuck is going to pay all this back?  I'm pissed beyond words....

22 I am haunted by a remark in H.G. Wells's Outline of history to the effect that the reason that the Roman Empire fell was that the Roman citizens didn't care enough to keep it from falling. 

Fifty-two percent of the voters voted for Empty Suit either because of the ambiguous unicorn and rainbow promises or, and this is far more likely, because they thought that he would steal from others to give the proceeds to them.  Now fifty-three percent are in favor of this massive Ponzi scheme in which we are cheating our children and grand children assuming that this doesn't actually lead to the fall of the US.  Not a thought is given that this is in direct opposition to every American ideal.  The American people, I fear, don't care enough to preserve the USA.  Just as the fall of Rome led to the immense suffering of the Dark Ages, so will a new Dark Age arise in which those who voted to steal from others for their own benefit will discover that it is they who will be the victims of massive government theft.  Long live the kleptocracy! 

23 Well, Jack, we tried to tell you.
Some of us just can't type as fast as you...

We are likely thoroughly hosed now...

24 Only until the extraordinary deficit spending of WWII, did the economy turn around.

FTFY.

Federal debt was not the size of the sun at that point.  World markets were not saturated with it--others were not jittery about buying it.  And, oh yeah, IT WAS THE BIGGEST F'IN WAR IN THE HISTORY OF THE GLOBE and the "stimulus" was not a gigantic pork exercise, but an effort to win.

Try again.

25 I lost my 1040.

26 Oh, and JackStraw...

Not to reopen old wounds, but there are about a bazillion financial geniuses from the financial genius sector that we should pass a special ex post facto constitutional amendment for and prosecute their asses for a) being weapons grade stupid with the mortgage debt and b) putting us in the position where PAUL KRUGMAN is being taken seriously.

FUCK!!!!

27 I think the the word stimulate could more appropriately be substituted with "lube-up and bend forward" [the economy].

28 The government can give you nothing that it didn't take from somebody else first.

29 Well, actually the government is sitting on a pile of wealth.

Much of it under the Outer Continental Shelf.

And they show no signs of touching that, especially not before completely tapping out the Treasury.

30

If I remember correctly one "Ace" of "AOSHQ" was also keen on alot of this.

31 Hey Metalhead, ummm....not sure how to break this to you, but you won't be getting a check for $2583, it'll be a bill, and for about twice that much since half the people in this country don't pay any taxes. They're the ones that will be getting checks.

32

if we have to spend a trillion more on bike paths and homeopathic remedies for the homeless to get some positive numbers by 2010, so be it.

Good news for my oldest who is 3 weeks away from her massage therapy degree .  At least someone in the family will have a job.  Thanks, Mr. President-elect.

33

Federal debt was not the size of the sun at that point.  World markets were not saturated with it--others were not jittery about buying it.  And, oh yeah, IT WAS THE BIGGEST F'IN WAR IN THE HISTORY OF THE GLOBE and the "stimulus" was not a gigantic pork exercise, but an effort to win.

And the fact that after the destruction, we were the only ones in a position to build anything was what made the whole thing stick. The war itself wouldn't have solved the economic woes. Being the last viable manufacturing base for the world tends to bring in teh cash.

34
"It is the media's job to remind them that this is not the case"

The media is incapable of grasping the fact that the Social Security "lockbox" is a scrap of paper with "I O U $6,000,000,000,000" scribbled on it. So how can it possibly grasp the idea that if we borrow a trillion dollars, eventually we have to pay a trillion dollars back?

35

As ususal, critics of the financial instituation intervention want to lump all who supported it as also supporting all the other bastardized offshoots of the original plan. Thats far from accurate. I still believe that the financial bailout was necessary but I should have known that the plan would be altered which could result in just as bad consequences down the road.  I was naive to think that the plan would not be turned on its head.

That said, we will never know now if non intervention would have resulted in an a imminent collapse of our financial institutions.  They are still fragile but have somewhat stabilized.  Sort of like we will never be able to prove that our intervention in Iraq was a crucial factor in not being attacked again. 

 

36

"While I've supported Bush on most everything over the past 8 years he was flat out wrong last year on this issue.  I can't figure it out and I haven't heard anyone else offer any reasonable explanation as to why."

Because it is more convenient for him for the Big Three to fail in March 2009, than December 2008.

I like to think this is Bush's one malevolent act in the face of the upcoming administration (priesthood?). Kinda like the Clinton staffers taking all the "W" keys from the White House computers.

37

gebrauchshund:

Oh, Snap.  And I had my eye on a new toy...Ruger P944.  USA made.  Keeps the stimulus dollar stimulating!

38 As ususal, critics of the financial instituation intervention want to lump all who supported it as also supporting all the other bastardized offshoots of the original plan.

Or as it is known in my house, the blank check to Hank Paulson's criminally stupid buddies.

39 Why do I doubt the polls?

40

on a huge pile of wealth, squirreled away in Fort Knox and the warehouse in Raiders of the Lost Ark

 

What about all that National Treasure shit too?

41 As ususal, critics of the financial instituation intervention want to lump all who supported it as also supporting all the other bastardized offshoots of the original plan. Thats far from accurate.

You're right, that's not accurate.  It is also not what we are saying.  We are saying that TARP opened the floodgates.  A few brave souls, not me, braved a withering amount of scathing attacks on this very site which was once a conservative blog.  At the onset of the "Panic" it quickly morphed into some sort of New Deal democrat website. 

The rest of your post was great.  You stood up like a man and admitted your mistake.  That is all anyone could ask and I thank you for it.  As I posted on other threads, I should have spoken up at the time, but didn't and that reflects poorly on me. (Kudos to the ones who did.)  That is all I am asking Ace.  I could even take his silence, though would not be happy about it.  But when he snarks at others for the exhibiting the same emasculated panic that he himself partook of, without so much as an acknowledgement, it truly grates on me.

42

Is it ironic that 53% is the same margin B. Hussein Obama won by? Maybe they polled the same people? Maybe their pole tabulator is stuck?

What is 1000 billion? Maybe we should start getting used to calling out the deficit in googleplex. What is the plural of googleplex?

43 Dear young people who voted for Obama:

Guess who's going to pay for this?

Yep.  Suckers.

44 As ususal, critics of the financial instituation intervention want to lump all who supported it as also supporting all the other bastardized offshoots of the original plan. Thats far from accurate. I still believe that the financial bailout was necessary but I should have known that the plan would be altered which could result in just as bad consequences down the road.  I was naive to think that the plan would not be turned on its head.

It's that last part that is the key.  Economists -- even the smart ones, which is a small subset -- are hopelessly naive when it comes to political realities.

45

The American people, I fear, don't care enough to preserve the USA. 

Probably because there is no longer any such thing as "the American people". There is simply the assortment of people living in the geographical spot we call America. At best they feel no loyalty to each other, at worst they hate each others guts.

46

You're right, that's not accurate.  It is also not what we are saying.  We are saying that TARP opened the floodgates.  A few brave souls, not me, braved a withering amount of scathing attacks on this very site which was once a conservative blog.  At the onset of the "Panic" it quickly morphed into some sort of New Deal democrat website. 

Oh bullshit.  Your logic is fucked.  I supported the war in Iraq, does that mean I support us going to war in China?  One doesn't have to lead to the other unless you support politicians who are so stupid they can't differentiate between loaning, yea, its a fucking loan backed by securities, to the keep alive the backbone of our economy and throwing money at any idiot who asks for it.  You are entitled to your own opinion not your own facts.

Absolute fucking horeshit.  You brave people who suffered withering typing never seem to admit that 1) TARP is slowly bringing stability to the financial markets, no serious bank failures, LIBOR is down by more than half from its all time record high in October, banks are beginning to lend again, etc. and 2) you never want to deal with the simple fact that had we done nothing we would have had a worldwide financial meltdown that would have been unprecedented.  You just pretend that somehow it would have all fixed itself magically despite the fact that there isn't a serious economist anywhere who agrees with you.

But you braved the withering criticism of anonymous blog commenters to keep you principles.  Bully for you. 

47

I should have spoken up at the time, but didn't and that reflects poorly on me.

So does that mean we can say that you're not a conservative either? This is a pointless discussion. TARP did not pass because of anything any blogger wrote. And it was going to pass regardless of what conservatives, even the ones in Congress, wanted. Try to get a little perspective.

 

48 I don't think it's the time to relive the TARP stuff. The folk who supported it and called everyone else names for not supporting it ought to see that, and resist the urge to call names now, ( or pretend that the silly thing has done anything other than help Barrak Obama get elected.) it makes you look bad and reopens an issue that can only makes things worse. Just let it go.  Both sides.  It's done.

49 serious economist

You're outdoing yourself again, Jack.  And the "stability" you trumpet is a total chimera since the original plan of buying up the toxic assets and detoxifying them was never done.  Too much accountability there for the political classes apparently.

We're at the point now where people think the solution to the hole in the Titanic's hull is to make a bigger fucking hole.  Chisel away, goddamit.

50 JackStraw you keep grasping at straws. You also keep ignoring what we are saying, so I will say it yet again.  Try to listen, I'll use small words.  You were warned that precisely this sequence of events was going to happen before TARP was passed, but you still insisted on Big Govt to the rescue.  Fine, just don't get all snarky when others travel down the same road.  You were unmanned, it happens.  You, Ace, and flenser sold your principles for a little security.  It hurts I'm sure.  The shame, the humiliation.  But its yours so own it.

51 And telling people it would have passed no matter what is a bit of revision you'd only see at the Daily KOS as well.  Just say it's over and move on.  For the folk who still have a burr under their saddle about its passage you aren't going to get the issue back.  And its not big enough to pick at in light of what's coming.  Stop all ready.

52 Sigh, I'm too late I see.

53 Obvious you're right in a sense.  But one of the biggest burrs conservative have against liberals is their rank hypocrisy, their willingness to point at others without looking at themselves.  Either Ace should:
1. Own up
2. Shut up
3. Expect to be reminded every time he ridicules others for what he does himself.

Perhaps I should stop, I can see myself getting carried away.  My last post was inexcusable.  Right or wrong I should not have gone ad homenum.  Sorry JackStraw, flenser.

54

Old Guy-

Feel free to flame away.  And use any words you want, I'll look up the ones I don't understand.

I understand your point.  I've understood it, and addressed it, directly, every time you bring it up.

Oh bullshit.  Your logic is fucked.  I supported the war in Iraq, does that mean I support us going to war in China?  One doesn't have to lead to the other unless you support politicians who are so stupid they can't differentiate between loaning, yea, its a fucking loan backed by securities, to the keep alive the backbone of our economy and throwing money at any idiot who asks for it.  You are entitled to your own opinion not your own facts.

See?  I understood it when I supported the plan.  Did you think you had hit on some sort of enlightenment when you figured out that Dems would be lining up at the feeding trough?  Guess what?  They are always lined up at the feeding trough.  Always.  It is the central tenet of their party.  Do you really think Obama came up with his stimulus plan because of TARP?  Really?

And so what?  You seem to not be able to distinguish between investing say $30 billion in Citi in exchange for 250 million shares of Citi prefered stock and giving money to a newspaper in CT.  Or you think I can't.  Or you think politicians can't.

If you want to ignore the necessity of TARP and believe that all it did was cause Dems to want to spend money, go for it.  I don't agree.  I do support TARP.  I don't support any industry specific bailouts.  I can distinguish between the two.  I would hope the politicians we support in Congress can do the same.

55 I don't support any industry specific bailouts.

Dear God, Jack...read that in the context of what you wrote.  Citi stock with all those bad assets still on the books is borderline junk value.

56 Where is my unicorn!!!!????

Posted by: Jayne Cobb

A man who names his rifle doesn't need a freaking unicorn. Unless you intend to hunt it?

57 RE: Instapundit, wordology, and "The public is naive about the economy."

Team Axelrod already has that covered. It's already reported that they focused-grouped the words, just as a political campaign operation is done, and have very intentionally and precisely selected the very words you are reading and hearing today about the "stimulus" package. Marketing 101, Orwellian Style.

The Obama (Pre)Administration has wordsmithed this to death and an ignorant public remains, manipulated again because fighting The Man is just too damned overwhelming.

We're screwed. Our children are screwed. Our grandchildren are screwed. If that's all that happens, we'll call ourselves lucky.

58 I'm kind of wishing for Clinton days with Hillary's attitude during her health care debacle of something like 'We can't be hand-holding every under-capitalized business...'

59

No it doesn't.  While I've supported Bush on most everything over the past 8 years he was flat out wrong last year on this issue.  I can't figure it out and I haven't heard anyone else offer any reasonable explanation as to why.  Doesn't matter, he still is wrong.  And the future will show that he remains wrong on this issue.

A foreign policy based on pursuing world peace through democracy promotion and international cooperation. More domestic spending than LBJ. Billions of dollars for every heart-tugging, formerly one-worlder, soft-headed cause that came down the pipes. Non-opposition on social engineering projects like affirmative action. Active neglect of border security and promotion of illegal immigration, with the connivance of Fox. Education reform led by Ted Kennedy. Bush is freaking Huckabee - better than the Democrats, but not a conservative. Even on the subprime mortages he supported it when it counted, under the guise of increasing minority home ownership.

60

You think Bush was ever a freedom-loving pro-capitalist? Fuck no. He supported it like the Democrats did during the 1990s - as something that seemed to be the new consensus - not something he was actually invested in. He's the typical fair-weather free-market supporting corporatist. The only serious thing he ever bucked the Democrats on were tax cuts and his foreign policy. One of which was undercut by the fact he's worse than LBJ on spending, and other is nothing but Wilsonian utopianism.

61

I'm with Metalhead at #37.  If I get another stimulus check, I'm buying and M1A.  Last time around I bought a PT1911.  Perhaps I should start refering to it as "Bush 45."

The only disappointment I've had from Bush 45 is that he doesn't feed hollowpoints very well--they feed OK when I fire the previous round, but it doesn't like to manually chamber the first round from the clip if it's a hollowpoint.  I solved that by getting some FMJ rounds and putting using one of those as the first round in each clip.

I have to say that at this point I'm more pleased with Bush 45 than 43 or 41, although I think both of them rate about a B, maybe a B- overall as presidents.  Clinton was a C- or D+, and I think Obama's going to be a straight F.  Reagan was probably an A-, I think.  Lincoln and maybe Washington are the only straight-A presidents I can think of, and the class was a lot harder when Lincoln took it.

62 Number 61 was me.  Not that that nic doesn't work in this thread...

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