1 If the Court threw the case out on the understanding that citizenship has always been determined by place of birth, then wouldn't it follow that Obama should have to produce some legally binding document (which the computer printout of the COLB is not) or other evidence that he was in fact born in the US?

In my mind, Obama will not be a legitimate President until he produces proof of eligibility. Everything he does should be challenged on those grounds until then. Every bill he signs into law, every executive order, absolutely everything.

2 So all of us have to present a certificate of birth to gain employment and pay our patriotic taxes, but ask for proof of citizenship for the highest office, and we're shunned as extremists. 

Ooooook


This makes no sense at all.

3
He's still hiding something. My photostat of my birth certificate that I obtained from the county of my birth has information such as my parent's occupation. I wonder what's on Barry's?

4 If a BC ever existed, as in legal proof of Obama being born in Hawaii, then shouldn't a copy of it exist in an archive somewhere on microfilm? The "hardly hardly anyone has the original vault copy" argument doesn't hold up. You pay the fee, they print one up off the microfilm archive.

5

"Once produced, the singular, above-and-beyond release of Obama’s original birth certificate would eliminate all doubt of his citizenship from rational minds."

Exactly.  And the failure to do so will only exacerbate doubt.  The State of Hawaii has no "procedure" for producing the original, even at Obama's request.  Suuuuure.  I believe that.  Really.

Gosh I can't wait for Santa this year!!

6 Thesher at December 15, 2008 01:23 PM (DG56/)

Years ago, I ordered a photostat copy and then later a computer print out which is cheaper. Last week I checked to see if the county still offered photostat copies for a higher fee. They did not. Doesn't mean the don't, in that they just don't have it on their website. It's easier for the county to just run off a printout than dig up the photo stat records. But you're right, they're in a vault somewhere.

7
Hey, where did the Ottoman Humping thread go? I had nightmares about it last night.

8 There's a really stupid bit in the John Grisham novel A Time To Kill.  It's about the trial of a black man who murders the two rednecks who raped his daughter.  He's guilty, but in the closing argument, his lawyer tells the jury to close their eyes as he reviews the facts of the case, and then at the last moment he tells them to "imagine that [the raped little girl] is white."  This, of course, is all it takes to get the jury to go from typical southern racists to acquiting the murderer.

Now this is asinine, of course.  It's not a bad novel, but that ending is obnoxious (the movie makes it even worse by pretending that there verdict is "innocent" rather than a "not guilty").  Still, every time the MSM declines to show any curiosity when it comes to scrutinizing a Democrat, I wish there were someone who could get these douchebags to close their eyes and imagine for a moment that Barack Obama (or whoever, really) were a Republican.

9 "... born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof..."

It's a weak argument, but not as outright dumb as you say.  The argument is that citizenship is NOT because you are "born in the United States," but "born in the US and subject to its jurisdiction."  If you play with the meaning of the word "jurisdiction," you can get rid of the 'anchor baby' rules we have now.  That is possible, because "jurisdiction" had a different meaning back when it was enacted versus today (think about how "well regulated" has a completely different meaning nowadays than in the 18th century).

It's nutty, but only about as nutty as a Ron Paul supporter.

10

Fortunately, an additional argument for declining to accept these suits arises today. Once all the electors have voted (by this evening), the issue will be moot.

11 OT   and Now it looks like Richardson may not be having a Merry Christmas (couldn’t happen to a nicer Judas) http://tinyurl.com/5h62kd Grand Jury Probes Richardson Donor’s New Mexico Financing Fee
Dec. 15 (Bloomberg) — A federal grand jury is investigating how a company that advised Jefferson County, Alabama, on bond deals that threaten to cause the biggest municipal bankruptcy in U.S. history, did similar work in New Mexico after making contributions to Governor Bill Richardson’s political action committees.

The grand jury in Albuquerque is looking into Beverly Hills, California-based CDR Financial Products Inc., which received almost $1.5 million in fees from the New Mexico Finance Authority in 2004 after donating $100,000 to Richardson’s efforts to register Hispanic and American Indian voters and pay for expenses at the Democratic National Convention in 2004, people familiar with the matter said.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation asked current and former officials from the state agency if any staff members in the governor’s office influenced CDR’s hiring, said the people, who declined to be identified because the proceedings are secret. Richardson, who is President-elect Barack Obama’s designate for Commerce Secretary, has a staff of at least 30 people.

more at link

12 Eh frankly the people filing these suits just come across as desperate. Remember all of those idiotic suits that were filed in 2000 by Dems who couldn't deal with the fact that Bush won fair and square? They all got tossed out of court too.

Obama won and we have to deal with it as best we can. Frivolous lawsuits won't help anything.

13

Actually, Wrotnowski’s argument is profoundly simple:

“Natural born” citizenship precludes rival loyalties from birth, i.e. subjection to two different jurisdictions.

Obama’s website concedes that he was born under the authority of the British Empire, i.e. he was a subject of the King at birth by descent.

Therefore, if Obama was born in the US, then he inherited rivaling loyalties to two different jurisdictions.

And Obama demonstrated his competing loyalties on more than one occasion. For example, this time last year he campaigned for his cousin Odinga to be president of Kenya, despite Odinga’s overt hostility to the USA.

Regarding Owens’ assertion, “While the state doesn’t presently have a procedural mechanism in place to make the long-form copy available, it is merely a procedure, not a law, and the proper officials could waive procedural norms for this specific issue of national importance”: he’s just plain wrong and uniformed.

Hawaii code makes statutory provision to obtain certified copies of birth certificates: http://tinyurl.com/5s83op

I could cite several other Hawaiian laws along these lines, but this one is the cornerstone. Bottom line: Owens’ riddled his piece with falsehoods and strawmen arguments, instead of addressing the issue factually and logically.

14 I thought 'natural-born' could be defined by Congress. They can probably just say that if you're born in Mexico, you're natural-born. (Not to give McCain any legislative ideas for his 'legacy'...)

I'd rather see his college apps. The answers wouldn't disqualify him, but did he get into Occidental, Columbia, or Harvard by saying he was Hawaiian, Indonesian or Kenyan?

15

Four words:

"Citizen of the World."

Carry on.

16

Umm...yeah.

I was wondering wher exactly that places my daughters. Both were born in Europe but automatically given my citizenship.

There doesn't seem to be room for them here in this analysis.

 

17

We can just call in the three wisemen as witnesses to confirm the birth of Obama.  That should clear up a lot of questions.

18 Why does it seem like this question of citizenship only arises when the person in question is form some other reason disliked?

19 Posted by: Cluebat from Exodar at December 15, 2008 03:00 PM (y67bA)

The court case I referenced doesn't deal with that issue, it only addresses the issue of a child born on US soil.

Now, your kids are natural born citizens because of a statute, not by the provisions of the 14th Amendment.

As I understand it (and I'm not a lawyer), Congress can widen the scope of 'natural born citizen' through statute but it can not shrink it to exclude children born on US soil without being in violation of the 14th Amendment.

20 Drew, before calling people "breathtakingly stupid," you might want to step back and consider that the term "natural born" has never been clarified in reference to the Contitutional requirements for POTUS. "Ark" was about citizenship, and some sincere originalists believe it to be a dumb ruling which opened the door to  the "anchor baby" nonsense we see today.

Most of us never thought these suits would get anywhere, if for no other reason than that the SCOTUS isn't about to handle a live grenade in taking on a "political question,"  with the overwhelming majority of the legal community opposed.

You might also want to remember that earlier in the year, when the shoe was on McCain's foot (and may it gangrene after yesterday's remarks), there was more than one "legal expert" expounding about the very same conundrum, with frowns and scowls of a possible "problem" down the road. Heck, the Senate passed a stupid resolution  just to remind all the legal eagles how the mop flops, (if the issue should ever be raised about the candidate of the other party).

Call Berg stupid, because he is. Alan Keyes has lost all credibility. But these other guys, I believe, are sincere. They did what they did on their own dime, on their own time. They don't deserve to be mocked.

21

Here's what I don't get.  Maybe someone can help me:

The argument goes that if the O campaign wanted to settle this once and for all they could just produce a BC.

But, if they wanted to settle it, couldn't they also - by now - have produced a convincing forgery as well?  It's just odd.

22 Drew, before calling people "breathtakingly stupid," you might want to step back and consider that the term "natural born" has never been clarified in reference to the Contitutional requirements for POTUS.

JBean,

Before you put words in someone's mouth, you should be sure you know what they wrote. I called Wrotnowsk's argument 'breathtakingly stupid' not him. There's a difference.

People can take as much issue with Ark as they want, and many do when it comes to birthright citizenship for illegals (which isn't at issue in Wrotnowski argument), but it's the law of the land and has been for over one hundred years. I'm fairly confident it's not going anywhere.

FTR- I thought the arguments challenging McCain's eligibility were breathtakingly stupid. In fact one of the main proponents of this crap, Donofrio in NJ, spent more time in his brief to the Supreme Court arguing against McCain than he did Obama.

They don't deserve to be mocked.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Donforo's brief is a joke and so is Wrotnowski's argument.

Did you know that Wrotnowski argued that Ark isn't valid case law because the justice who wrote it was appointed by Chester A. Arthur and these Obama Truthers now maintain that Arthur wasn't 'a natural born citizen' and therefor his appointments (namely Justice Gray) weren't legit?

STOP OBAMA...HE'S ANOTHER CHESTER A. ARTHUR!!!!!

Yeah, I'm going to mock them.

23 #12..Obama won and we have to deal with it as best we can.
My brain hurts. Bad.
Attack the ottoman time.

24 Obama's father was not married to his mother.  How then does Obama automatically get his father's citizenship?  Seems to me that such a rule would be easily abused.  I could make a lot of money from foreign chicks who want me to pretend I fathered their child!

I assume Obama was born in Hawaii, and his father's nationaility is irrelevant.  But I still want to see the birth certificate, because I'm now convinced that it has some amusing/embarassing information on it (Obama's mom being quite saucy, she very well could have put something crazy in the 'father' space. Like "Lizard People").

25 Drew --

I called Wrotnowsk's argument 'breathtakingly stupid' not him. There's a difference.

Pardon, I didn't realize we were splitting hairs here.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Donforo's brief is a joke and so is Wrotnowski's argument.

Based on what, Drew? Cut and paste all you want, but the truth is, you're not a lawyer, and neither am I. So let's just say it's a matter of personal opinion.

Did you know that Wrotnowski argued that Ark isn't valid case law because the justice who wrote it was appointed by Chester A. Arthur and these Obama Truthers now maintain that Arthur wasn't 'a natural born citizen' and therefor his appointments (namely Justice Gray) weren't legit?

Is that in his Stay Application submitted to SCOTUS? I can't seem to find it.

26 JBean,

I'm not sure that's actually splitting hairs but whatever.

Based on what, Drew?

The plain English language meaning of the words and the country's over 100 years of experience under it. It's not an overly lawyerly opinion.

BTW- Both of Michael Dukakis' parents were from Greece. Was he constitutionally ineligible to be President?

Cut and paste all you want, but the truth is, you're not a lawyer, and neither am I. So let's just say it's a matter of personal opinion.

Well since these guys have struck out at every court they've been to, it looks like judges (note mere lawyers!) don't seem to find much if any merit to their arguments.

BTW- just a suggestion, if you ever find yourself in court, don't try and argue that you are not a lawyer therefore you can't be held responsible for understanding the law. I doubt it'll work. Of course, that's just an opinion.

Is that in his Stay Application submitted to SCOTUS? I can't seem to find it.

Wrotnowski's lawyer (who just happens to be Leo Donofrio) says it's in the supplemental filing the court considered.

27 BTW- The Dukakis question was rhetorical. I wanted to use that to point out why I think Donofrio, Wrotnowski and the like are making absolutely stupid arguments.

I didn't mean to imply you supported their argument. I just put that question in a bad spot in the comment so it may have seemed I was asking you personally to defend their theory. I wasn't.

Sorry if that was unclear.

28

<i>"See? Two types of citizenship only...birth and naturalization, there's no third choice according the Supreme Court. If you accept that Obama was born in the US, then he's eligible."</i>

Are we discussing citizenship or <i>"natural born citizen"</i> as delineated in the requirements for becoming POTUS?  These are (at least potentially) two different things, and we should be clear about that.  That's about the only thing here that is clear.  All the arguments <i>could</i> make sense depending on how you understand the carious statutes and rulings and State department guidelines (foreign affairs manual: 7 FAM 1130, is interesting reading, and clear as mud ultimately).  This absolute declaration of 'there's only two choices' is about as well founded as Wrotnowsky's.  It might actually be a good thing for the SCOTUS to look this over and make some sort of clarifying ruling for the future, as it would seem more likely that we'll have candidates with blurry fitness for fulfilling the Constitutional requirements for he office of POTUS.

29 Say what you want, but the vault copy, if it exists at all, is Mr. Obama's personal information that he can request a copy of if he so desired.  His unwillingness to provide this information, even privately to the Supreme Court, makes it look like he has something to hide; whether he does or not.  At the least, this is one more stain on his presidency and he hasn't even taken office yet.

30 Are we discussing citizenship or <i>"natural born citizen"</i> as delineated in the requirements for becoming POTUS?
Posted by: douglas at December 15, 2008 05:03 PM (20QoQ)

I've seen this argument raised/question asked before and I don't get it. Where exactly is there any reason to believe it means anything other than what it says or is some how a separate category? Am I nuts or wrong to think "natural born citizen" means anything other than...a citizen whose citizenship is a result of their birth? The definition and eligibility for that type of citizenship isn't something I am guessing about, it's laid out in a Supreme Court case.

I don't ask you this as snark but honestly...where is there anything to show it means anything other that what it says?

This absolute declaration of 'there's only two choices' is about as well founded as Wrotnowsky's. 
 
Again, I didn't make this up, it's right there in the court's opinion. I may not be a lawyer but I can read English and count all the way to two.

I hate to be redundant but look at what the court says:
The Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in the declaration that

all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside,

contemplates two sources of citizenship, and two only: birth and naturalization. Citizenship by naturalization can only be acquired by naturalization under the authority and in the forms of law. But citizenship by birth is established by the mere fact of birth under the circumstances defined in the Constitution. Every person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization.

What other kind of citizenship are you thinking about when you say there's more than two kinds (natural born or naturalized)?

If you get your citizenship by virtue of your birth, how can you be anything but a "natural born citizen"?

I've read the State Department stuff on registering the birth of the child of citizens born outside of US territory or adoptions, etc. Those are statutory constructs of 'natural born' but they exist independently of the constitutional construct as laid out in Ark.

31 I've never understood why this is a hill worth dying for; for Obama.  The lawsuits could so easily be rendered moot by producing proof.  The silence is damning.  If this is the type of question where you need to hide behind a phalanx of lawyers then what kind of a man are you?  What kind of character do you have? What kind of a leader will you be?

32 Well since these guys have struck out at every court they've been to, it looks like judges (note mere lawyers!) don't seem to find much if any merit to their arguments.

So, let's get this straight: because judicial (and public, and blogger) opinion have been against them, they are therefore, wrong? And their arguments are therefore "breathtakingly stupid?" (BTW -- Judges are overwhelmingly lawyers, elevated to a higher position of authority by popular vote or appointment).

Here's the point, Drew. I actually read constitutional lawyers' opinions. I (and anyone else who has half a brain, with a little concentration) can understand the arguments -- on both sides of the issue. On the other hand, we have some bloggers, with no legal training, who appear to be more concerned with lining up with the consensus than with forming their own opinions.

Maybe those bloggers would be better off if they (pardon my injudicious expression) just STFU?  Or are  there some credibility  points to be made here -- so that down the road you and others can say "Ah ha! See how rational I am -- I trashed these guys!"

And just as an afterthought, Donofrio is not "Wrotnowski's lawyer." Wrotnowski filed the SCOTUS Stay App Pro Se.

33 God I just hope you crazy ass GOP supporters keep filing these lawsuits. It's just eating up funds that would otherwise have been spent/donated towards getting the GOP back into power someday in the distant future.

34 So, let's get this straight: because judicial (and public, and blogger) opinion have been against them, they are therefore, wrong? And their arguments are therefore "breathtakingly stupid?" (BTW -- Judges are overwhelmingly lawyers, elevated to a higher position of authority by popular vote or appointment).
Posted by: JBean at December 15, 2008 05:43 PM (ZrVDl)

You told me I wasn't a lawyer so my opinion was just that. Fair enough but my point there was judges (yes, I know they are lawyers, I was making fun) haven't been welcoming of their theories either. So if bloggers can't pass judgment on this surely judges can, right? It seems like no one is buying their theories.

Here's the point, Drew. I actually read constitutional lawyers' opinions.

Please show me some. Who is buying this stuff?

Or are  there some credibility  points to be made here -- so that down the road you and others can say "Ah ha! See how rational I am -- I trashed these guys!"

I don't like whack job conspiracy theories in general. If people resort to claiming that Chester Arthur wasn't eligible to be President to support their idea that Obama isn't eligible, then I have to say it falls into that category.

And just as an afterthought, Donofrio is not "Wrotnowski's lawyer." Wrotnowski filed the SCOTUS Stay App Pro Se.

You may want to let Donofrio know that. According to his site...

The Wrotnowski Supreme Court application was prepared by Leo Donofrio, Esq.

35 The whole "papa was a furriner" argument seems like an extreme stretch to me.  If The Messiah was born in the US, as he claims, it seems to me that he's a "natural born citizen".  End of story.  If he wasn't born in the US, that's a totally different story.

I'm sympathetic to the so-called "truthers" here.  If the document previously offered by Team Obama could be obtained for a child born abroad, the documentation proves nothing.  The "truthers" assert this is the case, and I have seen nothing refuting those claims.  State of Hawaii officials stepped in to clear things up by stating they have the full certificate on file, but privacy laws prevented them from disclosing details.  Fair enough.  But one thing they did NOT say is that he actually was born in Hawaii.  Had they said that, it would be over as far as I'm concerned.

36 God I just hope you crazy ass GOP supporters keep filing these lawsuits. It's just eating up funds that would otherwise have been spent/donated towards getting the GOP back into power someday in the distant future.

Brian, you wouldn't know it from Drew's post, but the lawsuits he's referring to didn't cost anyone anything. The fees were paid by the individuals filing the writs.

Sorry to disappoint.

37 If I hear one more person say "All Obama has to do is release his birth certificate and the controversy will go away", I'm going to throw up. The conspiracy theorists will never admit they were wrong no matter what Obama does. I've pointed out before that if Obama releases the certificate, the fallback response will be that Obama forfeited his citizenship when he went to live in Indonesia. There is no known way to make a conspiracy theorist admit he's wrong.

38 There is no "conspiracy theory" here.

But there is fraud and its name is BO.

39 Of course there's a conspiracy theory here. We're being led to believe that Obama's parents faked his birth in Hawaii, and that Obama continues the imposture to this day. That is a conspracy theory. And it is crazy.

40 Hawaii will issue birth certificates for out of state /out of country births, but they will show the out of state/out of country place of birth, not somewhere in  Hawaii.  The short form copy Obama has already produced is a valid birth certificate for government purposes,and is good enough as proof of birthlplace for the United States government to get a passport.

It shows Name of Child, date of Birth, Hour of Birth, Sex, City, Town orLocation of Birth, Island of Birth, County of Birth, Mother's Maiden Name, Mother's Race, Father's Name, Father's Race, and Date filed by Registrar, as noted on the longer file copy.  The long form has more detail, but it's hard to see what could be embarrassing on it.

http://tinyurl.com/4rnudo

41

I can't wait for the fucking "I told you so" on this one when Obama pulls out his "Citizen of the World" card (thanks railwriter!) a few years from now and the citizenship requirement is nullified by fait accompli. Then we can install a revolving door on the White House to let in whatever Third-World greenie socialist cocksuckers that want to keep ruining our country.

Of course, at that point all of the Obama ball-lickers will switch over from "nuh-UH! Obama IS a citizen!" to "the citizenship requirement was soooo STOOPID!" all because lawyers, judges, and the MSM told them so. Because you know, lawyers, judges, and the MSM have never, ever been wrong.

So keep up the rage against the tinfoil hat brigade. You'll be wishing you had listened to them when all this shit hits the fan. Or maybe not, depending on how much you enjoy tongue-washing the Brown Messiah's (and all of his successors') testicles.

42 All of this is needless.  The only thing we require is for Obama to present proof of his birth in the USA.  He hasn't done this.  I wonder why?

43

Drew at 4:39

Have you read or heard about the way these 2 cases were handled by Stay Clerk Danny Bickel and Judge Sabatino? People who reach that level don't commit obstruction of justice over a trifle.

Regarding Chester Arthur, Donofrio was given access to the naturalization record of Arthur's father. He didn't become a US citizen until Chester was 14 years old. Today we might yawn, but Arther destroyed nearly all the family records to hide that fact. Again, not something a person would do over a trifle.

Maybe it doesn't bother you that the SCOTUS has told us that the Constitution is none of our damn business because we don't lose anything if the country gives up on its Constitution.

Maybe it doesn't bother you that Secretaries of State all over the nation have stated outright that they didn't follow their law, and nobody can make them.

Maybe it doesn't bother you that my Secretary of State said the Consitutional requirements for the presidency are guarded by THE MEDIA (no kidding, he actually told me that!).

Maybe it doesn't bother you that the Constitution can be undone as long as the voters (who have no access to anything but what the politician wants them to see) have "vetted" the candidate. (Quick Somebody tell Blagojevich that he doesn't have to follow the law since he was already "vetted"!)

Maybe it doesn't bother you that the SCOTUS didn't even find the credibility and Constitutionalityof our electoral process worth taking the time to even consider.

Maybe all of this seems a trifle to you. But to me, I've just been told that America can go screw herself because we have no rule of law any more. To me, America is dead. Period. I have no interest in listening to any of the political pundits, politicians, media, judges, or pretty much anybody at this point. If nobody cares about these things, I have nothing in common with anybody. America was a beautiful nation but she's dead. I feel sick and I just want the whole world to go away and leave me alone while I grieve and figure out what to tell my kids when I can't rise for the "Star-Spangled Banner" or pledge allegiance to what no longer exists.

44 Posted by: justincase at December 16, 2008 03:23 PM (k6l/Y)

Thank you for reminding me why I like to check back in on dead threads. Sometimes somebody drops by and leaves a turd jewel like yours.

See I thought the conspiracy only involved Chester A. Arthur, who you know, is a little obscure and died a long time ago. But no! Modern day conspirators have been found who are willing to risk jail to protect Obama! Awesome!

And as for all your "Maybe it doesn't bother you...." you are missing a key point, I accept that fact that Obama has produced a legally acceptable document that certifies he was born in the US and thus eligible to be President.

I am also quite comfortable in stating that the idea that  he is unqualified because of his father's citizenship is such rubbish that it deserves to be ignored by him and any court in the US.  No, I'm not a lawyer but I can read English.

Maybe it doesn't bother you that the SCOTUS didn't even find the credibility and Constitutionalityof our electoral process worth taking the time to even consider.

No, what they and every other court has held* is that your guys don't raise any judiciable issues. You do know that the Constitution doesn't mandate the Supreme check the credentials of Presidents-elect, right? Courts decide cases, no one has brought them a cause of action, just a lot of nutty jibberish, unsubstantiated acusations and iditoci 'legal' theories of citizenship.

BTW- I do think there are people who have standing to test the qualifications of a candidate (a state Secratery of State or an elector to name two).

Again, thanks for stopping by. Don't be a stranger.

*They really haven't held in anything as much as they never get past standing or general whackitude to issue a rulling but I think that's the general outcome.

45 42 All of this is needless.  The only thing we require is for Obama to present proof of his birth in the USA.  He hasn't done this.  I wonder why?

Posted by: Thomas Jackson at December 16, 2008 02:49 PM (0Qynq)

He has presented such proof.  A valid Hawaii birth certificate.

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