1 What about treating it like a real business? Let junior talent make their mark in the world by righting the sinking ship, they get their reward in the next job or if they stay in this one. The sous chef, and the hard working assistants who work for a star don't get paid very well, usually less, but use the job as a resume builder.

Besides what about all the unemployed exes, from the bankrupt companies, a little money should be better than none.
We're asking auto exes and union workers to take a cut, why not banking people?

2

This would have exempted AIG from the limits as well. How colossally stupid. From a domestic perspective George Bush has been a Democrat in drag for four years.

Talent? You have to pay for talent? You have to FIND some talent first.

What happens in the auto industry is often not different from the usual CEO merry-go-round. They bring in a guy with no experience in the auto industry who implements his own notions and whipsaws the company around for nothing except tens of millions of dollars. The next guy does the same thing and the company get jerked in a new direction for nothing except HIS money.

This is why you so often see a CEO from one industry becoming the CEO of a totally unrelated industry. And they all sit on one another's BOD's.

It's a freaking joke. Without a doubt talent resides dormant in the executive lines of each company now. These CEO's have shown NOTHING in the way of foresight or talent.

3

We paid for high-quality executives and they turned out to be not so high-quality.

And that's where your argument falls flat on its face.

We certainly did not pay for high-quality executives --- the shareholders did. Poor them.

We (taxpayers) certainly are now paying bailed out exec salaries. And if they're sucking hard on the teat, they get the requisite public servant salary.

4 You're not going to get any highly talented managers. The talented people know the banking industry isn't anywhere near bottoming out and they're not going to want to put their careers in the middle of a trainwreck.

5 @1

Good Luck on that one.

I work at a company where one of the business divisons while not losing money is not making as much as the company would like.  The fault rests squarely on the shoulders of management.  Our marketing team can't market and can't give the engineers good customer requirements.  The sales team under the leadership of the division head can't close a deal to save their lives.  The junior people (me included) have been making this point for months.  The deals are out there, we can close them, but upper management wont go after them.  On Weds. last week they laid 15 of us off but the management team that has caused the problems is still in place - "To turn things around".    Their plan - more of the same. 

The bad part - the company as a whole is profitable, and the product my divison makes is so far unique.  Others are trying to move in on the market but so far all our competitors can offer is vaporwear, but somehow our management team can't move this product.  It's freakin insane.  There really isn't a reason to be laying people off, other than to "improve shareholder value" but in doing so they are stripping the company of some engineering assets that are going to be needed later and in the larger sense contributing to the problems that are causing people to be laid off in the first place.  That doesnt really improve shareholder value at all. 

6

At the time I said the executive pay penalties would NEVER happen anyway and it wasn’t because of the wording of the bailout bill. The SCOTUS ruled long long ago, and as far as I know it has not been reversed, that congress can NOT pass a law that causes contracts to be nullified unless those contracts were illegal when written.

 

Even if this wording had not rendered the bill moot, all it would have taken is one of these executives to take them to court.

 

Now if they had allowed these institutions to go bankrupt BEFORE the bailout they could argue that existing contracts were negotiable under bankruptcy law.

7

We certainly did not pay for high-quality executives --- the shareholders did. Poor them.

We (taxpayers) certainly are now paying bailed out exec salaries. And if they're sucking hard on the teat, they get the requisite public servant salary.

Yes.  That precisely.  If Congress was trying to cap a private company's pay structure, I would be among the first to howl.  But when a company wants to take public money, hey, the rules freaking change.  Don't like the rules?  Don't take the money. 

8 Bush's change was to try and avoid the government controlling executive pay like the Dems wanted in the original language.  According to the article, the change did precisely that but unfortunately resulted in other problems if the experts in the article are correct.

9 It was simply a form of civil punishment on executives (many of whom weren't involved in riding these banks into the ground). 

I'm not one to complain about executive salaries, but bro, when the ship runs aground the captain is always involved.

10 The execs get the money, the politicians get the control.  The taxpayers get the shaft.  Even though 60-70% of us are against bailouts , they are going to happen anyway because goverment and industry each get what they want.  We are fucked.

11 We should all remember that these fuckers at least eventually lose their jobs or head to the can, the real shit is in DC. Those fuckers keep getting sent back. Did you see that two of the five wealthiest 'burbs in the USA are connected to DC? Whose fucking money props that shit up?

I hope I live long enough to see an economic downturn in McLean and Reston.

Monarchy or anarchy, the only ways out.

12 Ronsonic, the executive caps remain in place for future executives, not just the current crop.

13 It's not fascism when we do it.

14

The SCOTUS ruled long long ago, and as far as I know it has not been reversed, that congress can NOT pass a law that causes contracts to be nullified unless those contracts were illegal when written.

They also ruled in favor of property rights, until Kelo. Part of that "Change" thingy.

15

DR Kill

Where did you find that article about the 'burbs? I'd like to read it.

16 ALL bailouts have/will fail...they are socialism, and that has failed where ever and whenever tried. Any form of gov't subsidy of failure, by simple math, must encourage more failure. If a free market place is not allowed to punish the bad and reward the good, it is no longer a free market, and has become some form of dictatorship from socialism on down...and we are most definitely there. Thank El Presidente Jorge Boosh...scan the skies for those black helicopters!

17 Who appointed Gabriel Malor as in-house business/finance analyst?

Gabriel's an idiot. Go study economics for a few years before you post another amateur commentary on the world of business, finance, or monetary policy.

This is getting ridiculous. No, it HAS been ridiculous. It's a joke.

Great analysis there Gabby. Really in-depth stuff. Love the part about 'high-quality' versus 'middling' salary and work. Touche.

18 And what's all this 'we' stuff. Sounds pretty collectivist and big government to me.

19

And what's all this 'we' stuff.

My point exactly. Malor has an embarassingly fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between private shareholders and public taxpayers. We...

20

As I sit here at my computer, I gaze out at Macomb County, Michigan where I can confirm that there are at least 5 banks on the FDIC watch list.  Not a one of them would have made a single sub prime loan were it not for Fed, State and FDIC regulators.  Banking is the most highly regulated industry of all, each bank often visited by a team of regulators, often several times each year, often lasting weeks, and always in great detail.

 

I sat with several of these bankers in exit interviews reviewing the results of these examinations, have done for years.  Starting in the Clinton era, the CRA component of these exams gained new importance.  The regulators themselves changed from career people to newly hired minorities, often Obama type folks with fancy degrees, no experience, and strong agendas.  CRA was made tougher and tougher.

 

Failure to comply with the regulators’ vision of compliance with CRA would immediately result in the Fed stopping the bank from new branches or any acquisitions. Regulators have the power to force new computer systems, change personnel, transform products and advertising - and pretty much anything else that strikes their fancy.  In extreme cases, the Fed’s can shut down the lending function entirely, or administer the death penalty.  The power of the Fed cannot be overestimated.  Think of that power placed in the hands of folks with ACORN type agendas.

 

I know the senior execs of these banks to be people of integrity, all with 25+ years of banking and lending experience.  They are not paid millions, but they make more than the salaries of the congressmen that created CRA and screwed up Fannie and Freddie.  Indeed, they are well paid precisely to navigate the fine line between regulatory requirements and the need to make sound loans in a highly leveraged industry.

 

In general, banks that make 1 out of 10 bad loans are toast.  Nobody that I know predicted that the oil price would go to $150 from $15 in four years, the auto industry would tank, and the non-performing loan rate would go to 20%.  Up to 25% of the county is now out of work due to the auto industry and related suppliers.  As a result, all types of loans are now at risk – all once good ones – in particular construction loans and commercial real estate.  Hard times.

 

The only thing these bankers could have done would have been to sell out or close five years ago.

 

The same thing is generally true with troubled housing markets in California, Nevada, Arizona and Florida.  Few predicted that housing would lose up to 60% of value in a year or so, because this is the first time for it since the 30’s.

 

It might make me happy to sit here and call all of these exec’s idiots, but this is a cheap shot and it just ain’t so.  Auto execs, same same.

21

And what's all this 'we' stuff.

My point exactly. Malor has an embarassingly fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between private shareholders and public taxpayers. We...

Posted by: Cuffy Meigs at December 15, 2008 10:58 AM (JefgB)

It's far simpler than that, Cuffy: Gabe has a tapeworm.

22 vashine

I don't remember any brilliant, in-depth commentary from you previously. Odd that you'd pop in only to insult Gabe. Do you actually have anything to add or are your snide comments the extent of it?

23

These bloated salaries are the product of cozy crony relationships between boards and management.  There is little or no relationship between "quality" and compensation.   You could find smarter and better managers for a tenth of the salary, but as in all human efforts, relationships and mutual backscratching make the difference.

Large institutional investors do not have the knowledge or the balls to exercise their shareholder votes properly.

Now we taxpayers are on the hook in the biggest larceny by fraud in US history. 

Did you see that two of the five wealthiest 'burbs in the USA are connected to DC? Whose fucking money props that shit up?

I hope I live long enough to see an economic downturn in McLean and Reston.

Drive out I-66 and the Dulles road and look at the defense contractors as you go by.  SAIC, CACI, L3, Booz, Lockheed, Northrop, and all of the little boutique contractors working on top secret stuff.  That is where the McLean and Reston money comes from.  The war.

24

Robert at December 15, 2008 11:19 AM (VotgB)

No matter how many times this is explained, some still don't seem to get it.

The banking industry seemed to work pretty damn well for a long, long time before this meltdown. Bankers all over the country didn't just start taking stupid pills a few months ago.  So what changed?  Government once again tried to insert social policy into economics with predictable catastrophic results.

Not only is it flat wrong to keep piling the blame for this problem on the banking industry it does nothing to fix the underlying problem.  The government needs to have oversight on the financial industry but they need to get out of the underwriting business.  Not everyone deserves a loan.

25

Oy. Since you're so bent out of shape over a pronoun, I hereby amend:

This is patent, but comes up against an obvious response: the companies already paid for "real talent" and look where it got them.

Fair enough, but think of it like this. They paid for high-quality executives and the execs turned out to be not so high-quality. What makes you think that if we, the taxpayer, pay executives a middling salary we'll get any more than middling-quality work from them?

Jesus. The point stands: you get what you pay for. This is even more important now that, as you say, the taxpayer is the one paying the bill.

26 Drive out I-66 and the Dulles road and look at the defense contractors as you go by.  SAIC, CACI, L3, Booz, Lockheed, Northrop, and all of the little boutique contractors working on top secret stuff.  That is where the McLean and Reston money comes from.  The war.

There are an awful lot of McMansions for sale in Great Falls. I would expect this has to do with the change of Administrations?

27 I had nothing to do with this particular series of gabe related flaming cuz I don't know shit about the situation, but then again, it appears that gabe doesn't either.

28 All that is good and fine, but where exactly is this high-paid, in-demand "talent" going to go work right now?

29

A hobo could have did a better job.  the entire bailout was to save the elite class from bankrupting themselves.  It was to keep the status quo.   We should have let Wall Street go into bankruptcy.  Neew leaders and new talent would have stepped in to replace the dinosuars that are corrupt.  CEO pay would have been reduce by the market. 

 

 

30
Yep, we shoulda let the free market correct itself.

31 All that is good and fine, but where exactly is this high-paid, in-demand "talent" going to go work right now?

If there is any justice in this world... "Would you like to try a combo meal?"

32 So has the moronosphere officially admitted that the bailouts were a baaaaaad idea?  Or is this still a contentious issue.

33

Yep, we shoulda let the free market correct itself.

Ah yes, the free market.  Read this article and tell me some more about the "free market" banks operate in.  You should be familiar with the guy from Justice who got this all rolling, Bart.  He's your governor and worships at the same alter of social justice as Obama.

"Outstanding" N. Mex. bank stung by fair-lending probe.

The case was pursued by Justice in spite of the bank's Community Reinvestment Act rating of "Outstanding" from the Comptroller's Office. In settling the case, $341 million-assets First National Bank of Dona Ana County, Las Cruces, N.M., did not admit to any wrongdoing or violation of fair-lending laws.

 http://tiny.cc/sPNNU

34

Did the automakers or any of the companies that are applying for a bailout really attract "real talent"?

I recall a study some time ago about small airline failures over the last 15 or so years; mostly competitors to Southwest, Jet Blue, etc. One of the recurring factors in the failed airlines was the number of executives and senior executives from previously-failed airlines. Failed executives kept turning up running small airlines that then failed.

I expect to see this sort of factor appear again and again when the various current business failures are analyzed, and others seem to feel this way too.

There’s some evidence that the talent attracted focussed primarily on stock price, not profits.

Then there’s the issue of job-performance: what are the metrics used to determine executive job performance? More specifically, is the primary motivator stock price or quarterly profits? What is the principal reward mechanism, stock, or cash bonus as a function of realized income?

There’s some evidence that the talent attracted realized that they were in a no-lose situation.

Do the executives have golden parachutes? If so, why? The punishment for failure is or should be dismissal, but the reward for mediocre performance should be mediocre as well. Why, in either case, should there be any sort of guaranteed reward? Why should a resigning exec get anything more than all current pay owed plus remaining vacation pay?

Companies live or die on profits, not stock price, so let’s make, communicate and enforce the connection. "Real talent" will perform to the indicated and specified standards, i.e., generate profit, so it should be rewarded.

Sales and Marketing needs to be pounded and reworked, to plug a few cash leaks.

Replacing all non-performing / under-performing salesmen every 2 quarters is a good choice. This also needs to be applied to all marketers, since Marketing = Sales. The Sales and Marketing executives need to perform as well; 4 quarters is a reasonable time period. Bad numbers = all Sales and Marketing executives being let go and replaced with new talent, including the VP of Sales and the VP of Marketing. This is the only way to motivate Marketing.

Sales commissions get reduced to fees, not percentages, and are received only for actual sales, not repeat orders (where no sales effort was made). Sales may not be easy, but Engineering design is much more difficult. Why should a salesman get 3% or so of, say, a million-unit microcontroller sale to a cellphone manufacturer, when it was the engineers that made the features and performance attractive to the manufacturer? Let’s plug this cash leak.

The commission fee is paid only after the income is received and in the bank. Oracle, IIRC, learned this lesson.

Now let’s look at bailouts, executive compensation and how to turn companies around. It seems a bit easier. There’s a chance that there’d be much less need for bailouts.

This post is only 2/3 of a Word page.  It seems that the width here makes it run 20% longer.

35 erik,

I disagree, I favored TARP, but not a bailout for autos.

We cannot escape the fact that Fed (FDIC) action is required when insured banks fail, and fail they did/are.  Wachovia would not have opened that Monday without FDIC intervention.  They had a run, as did Wamu, IndyMac and others.  Panic had set in, let us not forget.

Just Citicorp alone, by the way, would have probably failed by now absent Fed investment, and they have more than $ 300 billion in bad loans.  The current agreement spreads and limits the amount of loss to various agencies, if required.  The hope is that Citi will rebound, not require Fed assumption of losses, and return the TARP investment.

But the Federal Government is on the hook for most of the $ 300 billion any way you slice it.  You can help them try to work it out, or take the whole medicine in one lump sum as you suggest.

Just this one bank is almost as much as the amount of TARP appropriated so far.  Just one bank.

You can either pay me now or pay me later.

36

Posted by: JackStraw at December 15, 2008 12:40 PM (VW9/y)

Oh yeah, coerced lending on ghetto real estate has caused the world financial system to collapse.  Who knew that you could lend ten trillion dollars for houses in Compton and North Philly?

Had nothing to do with overleveraging or credit default swaps.  Move along, it's black folk's fault.

37 Part of the problem as I see it ... if a CEO gets millions for some target, he will put shareholders at high risk to reach his goal.  Heads he wins, tails you lose.

38 But they managed to reach out beyond the shareholder ... housing prices up, they win, prices down, Fannie/Freddie shareholder loses, and so does the taxpayer ... Raynes and the bought of congresscritters are keeping the money though, and asking for taking another trillion.

39

There are an awful lot of McMansions for sale in Great Falls. I would expect this has to do with the change of Administrations?

Maybe, but I expect that this has to do with the USA being busted, broke, deadbeat.  The party's over.  Time to come home. 

40 icus, a finanacial and military genius all wrapped into one. Last week he was giving us his military genius by telling us why air support was not possible in close quarter combat in the mountains of Afghanistan until someone pointed out that both planes and helicopters had been involved in the fight.  Of course he acted like he never made his initial comment and went right on to comment on  how air power is used in these situations.  I can't wait for his expertise to evolve on these financial matters.

41

icus if you were standing in front of me I would throw a whole closet full of shoes at you.  

The core of this problem, whether it suits your agenda or not, was the government trying to manage the financial system in ways that were unsupportable.  You can't force banks to give out billions is bad loans, have Fannie and Freddie buy them and package them as government guaranteed financial assets, float them throughout the worldwide financial system and then turn around and blame the banks.  Well, you can, but its both stupid and wrong.

Any problems caused by "over leveraging" or cds' would have been absorbed as they always have been in the financial world and you and 99.99% of the rest world never would have heard of it had it not been for the subprime meltdown.  Or did you think the record default rate and complete collapse of the housing bubble (which was caused, of course, by the market being awash in cheap money thanks to government mandates) was caused by over leveraging and credit default swaps?

Place your race baiting games with someone who gives a shit.

42 Move along, it's black folk's fault.

We would like to present this years' award for the Dumbest Person on the Internet to a perennial contender, icus, for his repeatedly excellent performance in ignoring the reality that everyone else on the planet sees and, instead, making up his own version of events, allowing him to insulate himself from the truth, all the while maintaining a wholly undeserved air of smug superiority.

Please, join me in congratulating icus for his very fine idiocy in 2008 and hope that we can all experience even more of his blindingly amazing stupidity in the years to come.

43

clap,clap, clap, clap.  Author ! Author!

44 it's black folk's fault.

I expect, about a year from now, someone will say this .....and they will be right.

45 Fair enough, but think of it like this. We paid for high-quality executives and they turned out to be not so high-quality. What makes you think that if we pay executives a middling salary we'll get any more than middling-quality work from them?

You know what, I don't think the job market for executives is all that hot in the current economy. I don't think competitive wages for executives is a huge problem right now.

Also, icus fuck off and die.

46 relaxed merger rules, crappy executives, increased pointless and damaging regulations, decreased useful regulations, lawsuit coerced poor lending practices, fancy ass mathematical models that don't properly take into account economic complexity

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