1 Just paving the way for Ah-nold.

2 So, why exactly won't he produce the document? Does President Elect Chocolate Jesus believe he is above the law, or does he have something to hide?

/At one point, didn't Nixon think he was above the law too?

3

The next time someone mentions "The Rule of Law", I might break something.

4

Since the Constitution is now an outdated document of the founders suggestions, why can't Barry assume the throne immediately?

5 You have to admire how skillfully the Left (and, unfortunately it has to be said, many on the Right) has managed to frame any inquiry or curiosity about the issue as the province of Truthers, to the point where you can't even raise the subject hypothetically without being called a conspiracy loon.

For the record I, too, have opted to presume that Obama's eligibility is sound, but it is irritating that he's refused to release the damn birth certificate.  Why the Hell shouldn't he have to provide the documentation?  The example it sets is bad, and I'd hope that the POTUS would understand that at least as well as anyone else.

6 The constitution is a living and breathing document that's meaning can be re-interpreted or ignored at will (caveat: such awesome power is only available to liberal elites who've had the education and shown the requisite intelligence to make such decisions).

7

Obama will produce his original birth certificate when John Kerry signs the 180 form and John Kerry will sign the 180 form when Obama produces his birth certificate. 

Its a standoff.

8 I'm right there with you, Ace. I cannot understand the reticence to have the applicants produce the most basic documentation to prove eligibility for the most powerful office on the planet. And who in the US actually does have standing here? I should think every legal voter has standing. I guess they just don't make Constitutions like they used to.

I honestly don't know if Obama meets the Constitutional requirement. His campaign team's reaction to this rudimentary request leads me to believe he doesn't.

9 You have to admire how skillfully the Left (and, unfortunately it has to be said, many on the Right) has managed to frame any inquiry or curiosity about the issue as the province of Truthers, to the point where you can't even raise the subject hypothetically without being called a conspiracy loon.

It's especially gallling coming from those on the right (like Patterico, as one example) who think it's on par with questioning the paternity of Palin's children or questioning who 'really' carried out 9-11 when all many are asking for is for the guy to just produce the damned document--what is so hard about this?!

10

It's especially gallling coming from those on the right

Don't forget the right's queen of perpetual outrage, Malkin.

11 I thought they refused to grant the stay without comment? Where did standing come into it? It is odd that a US citizen has no standing to object to an illegal or constitutionally unqualified candidate. Then again, didn't they pull something similar in Ohio voting fraud?

12

Apparently, as the great Paul Anka once observed, we're "picking and choosing" which parts of the Constitution are still valid law.

Put me some fuckin' Change I Can Believe In^(tm)

13 That flushing sound you hear is the US Constitution going down the drain, or at least parts of it.  We don't enforce our own Constitution, we make "exceptions" to it for the greater good (Who Killed the Constitution) and we are picky about the laws we have already written as to whether or not we will enforce those.  Illegal aliens vs Plaxico Burress is an example.  An illegal alien could've been in the same situation as Plaxico and would already be out on the streets building somebody a home with no serious thought to paying for his crime.

14 Ace,
Yours is the best post by the conservative blogger set on this issue. I agree, both about the likely "truth" of the matter (that Lightworker passes the citizenship test) and about the validity of Keyes' suit (he certainly has standing).
It's more than irritating to find so many supposedly critical thinkers putting their heads in the sand on this issue.

15

I don't know why I (or anyone here) have to ritually express a faith in the trustworthiness of Obama in order to have the expectation of being taken seriously when I ask the a provision of the Constitution be satisfied, and be seen to be satisfied.

Democrats are taking the political process of this country in a dangerous direction, and I wonder when some goddam Republican is going to say so?!

16 This is one of the most simply, coherent and sensible posts on this subject that I've read on the entire inter-tubes.

"One should not need to sue a candidate to compel evidence of his right to serve" 

Spot on.

I resent being called a tin-foil hat wearing, 9/11 type of "Truther" for merely wanting simple documentation that ALL of us have to provide at multiple points in our lives.  Our government leaders are not above the law.  Oh, wait, yes they are.

17 Guy can't prove he's eligible, guy jets off to Hawaii where possibly the only person in the world who could vouch for him lay dying, she dies, he is elected president.  What's so suspicious?

18 I'm not certain I understand Keyes' connection to this. AFAIK, his suit was filed in California and has not yet made it to the Supreme Court. But I may have missed it while my attention was focused on killing skinnables in Northrend or something...

19 Guess that's what I get for using my own real name as my nick.

20 >>>I'm not certain I understand Keyes' connection to this. AFAIK, his suit was filed in California and has not yet made it to the Supreme Court.

The court should have added his suit to the ones being considered to take care of a bunch of extremely similar suits at once.

21 Umm...you are aware that the Obama campaign made available a copy of his birth certificate and that the Sec. of State for Hawaii certified its authenticity, right? But this doesn't matter to you why?

22 Good point about Nixon.

When Obama gets impeached because of these things finally coming to light all these schools and holidays for Obama will be a tad embarrassing.

23 I just pooped in my diaper!

24

You have to admire how skillfully the Left (and, unfortunately it has to be said, many on the Right) has managed to frame any inquiry or curiosity about the issue as the province of Truthers, to the point where you can't even raise the subject hypothetically without being called a conspiracy loon.

It's a lot like the Clinton years.  The allegations themselves were so tawdry that the people asking questions get castigated- Bill in USSR in 1969, Juanita Broadrick, Charlie Trie, the Riadys....

25 We, the Supreme Court of the United States of America, have chosen your Dictator, Supreme Leader and Messiah Hussein. We don't need no stinking Constitution, as the Courts of this land long ago did away with such arcane nonsense!  Just STFU, America! Get over it, and bow down to the black robes and Hussein your Leader.

26

Doubters will have to nurse their doubts on their own for all eternity. Tough luck, you nutty skeptics! Meanwhile, life goes on. Barack Obama will be President. Deal with it.

All Althouse, Professor of Law

I am speechless.  Note that she implicitly grants that we hold doubts, but apparently since we are conservatives, our doubts are not needful of being addressed.  And anyone who doesn't understand the difference between a COLB and a Birth Cert has no business talking down to anyone.

27 21 Umm...you are aware that the Obama campaign made available a copy of his birth certificate

Not quite. and that the Sec. of State for Hawaii certified its authenticity, right?

Not quite.

But neither of those issues matter to this particular suit, which was about the definition of "natural born".

28 No no, the Supreme's didn't select this President, he was elected by 52% of those voting. The Supreme's did ordain a President for us recently, but that is now history. An end to an error and all that.

29 Ann Althouse, obviously.

30 Keyes is interesting when it comes to standing but it seems to me the most relevantly situated people would either be a state Secretary of State or an elector.

Secretaries of state have to provide the ballots for the election and ultimately, the actual warrants that the Congress uses to confirm the election.

Electors obviously are at the end of the day the only ones who vote for the President and would presumably have standing to ensure they are voting for someone who is eligible to serve.

Now, electors aren't going to do it because they are selected specifically for their loyalty but it seems that the Secretary of State of some red state might have been interested in the gig.

31 Not quite? Not matters pertaining to this suit? Can you explain these inexplicable statements?

32

SCOTUS refused to hear Leo Donofrio’s case — no one else’s. There’s still one more in front of Scalia and buttloads coming down the pike.

Regarding the responsibility to vet a candidate before placing them on the ballot, here’s a quote from Keye’s suit: “The Office of the Secretary of State of California is the California agency responsible for certifying candidates for inclusion on the ballot. Historically, California Secretaries of State have exercised their due diligence by reviewing necessary background documents, verifying that the candidates that were submitted by the respective political parties as eligible for the ballot were indeed eligible. In 1968, the Peace and Freedom Party submitted the name of Eldridge Cleaver as a qualified candidate for President of the United States. The then SOS, Mr. Frank Jordan, found that, according to Mr. Cleaver’s birth certificate, he was only 34 years old, one year shy of the 35 years of age needed to be on the ballot as a candidate for President. Using his administrative powers, Mr. Jordan removed Mr. Cleaver from the ballot. Mr. Cleaver unsuccessfully challenged this decision to the Supreme Court of the State of California, and, later, to the Supreme Court of the United States. Similarly, in 1984, the Peace and Freedom Party listed Mr. Larry Holmes as an eligible candidate in the Presidential primary. When the then SOS checked his eligibility, it was found that Mr. Holmes was similarly not eligible, and Mr. Holmes was removed from the ballot. Currently, we have a similar situation in that the Democratic Party has submitted the name of Senator Barack Obama as candidate for President.” (Keyes vs. Bowen)

33 Obama's mother was an American citizen at the time of his birth. Doesn't that make Obama an American citizen, even if Barry was born in some other country?

34
"...Bill in USSR in 1969, Juanita Broadrick, Charlie Trie, the Riadys...."

Issues; that were the "darling grist" of the "talking heads" on the loony right on a daily basis... losers!

35 But Allah and everyone else says we're all crazy conspiracy theorists for even asking!!!!!!!!

36 I resent being called a tin-foil hat wearing, 9/11 type of "Truther" for merely wanting simple documentation that ALL of us have to provide at multiple points in our lives.  Our government leaders are not above the law.  Oh, wait, yes they are.

Posted by: Andy at December 08, 2008 06:02 PM

My thoughts exactly. If we aren't going to require that then we may as well flush that part of the Constitution down the drain.

How hard is this to do?All BO has to do is present the certificate (not digital photos of a certificate) and all of this can go away. They've spent 18 months arguing this in courts rather than just producing the document. When this first came out, I laughed it off as another Truther thing too, until they kept fighting to present the certificate. Not to mention that he still hasn't produced his medical records. 30 years of smoking doesn't do a body good - I'm just saying.

37 Oregon - If he'd been born prior to 1952 it would have, but after 1952 both have to be citizens and I believe there is a requirement for them having to have lived in the US for an amount of time as well.

38 For the record, I believe Obama was born in Hawaii. However, it is not his right to refuse the production of documents establishing his eligibility.

He did produce a document establishing his place of birth as Hawaii, which was subsequently authenticated by the relevant authority in the government of the state of Hawaii.  Such authentication by a state government is legally entitled to a heavy presumption of validity.  The only assertions to the contrary were the ramblings and fantasies of mentally unstable losers like Berg.

In short, he does not have to jump through a bunch of hoops just because the Digital Brownshirts and Flying Monkeys of the fringe of American society scream like a bunch of little pissy-pants babies over it.

There was an election.  He won, you lost.  Suck on it.

39

Doesn't that make Obama an American citizen, even if Barry was born in some other country?

No. 

40

Honestly, I don't know what to believe. Why is he fighting this? It's not that big a deal. Just show it and let the topic rest. The fact that this is only 1 of alot of stuff he flat out refuses to reveal (and won't even give a reason why) makes people understandbly suspicious. It's the same with all his college records, medical records etc...of any kind. Big fucking deal what courses you took or articles you edited while in charge of the law review. And yet he will reveal no information.

It does sound conspiracy theory if it were only 1 or 2 things but he refuses to reveal all kinds of information again and again and again. There is no doubt he is hiding alot.

41 Can I dispute that Obama is at least 35?

42 31 Not quite?

1) What Obama has shown is a "certifaction of live birth", not a "birth certificate". As I understand it (and I may be wrong; wouldn't be the first time) a "certification of live birth" could be issued to about anyone and the state of Hawaii itself does not accept those in some circumstances that a birth certificate is required. No cites, because I'm running on internet rumor here.

2) All the state of Hawaii said is "we have a copy of it". They didn't say what was on it.

Not matters pertaining to this suit?

This particular lawsuit was about the definition of "natural born", not about Obama's documents.

43 Sherlock:  What is the difference between a COLB and a Birth Certificate.

Second:  Does anyone know if Obama has a U.S. Passport? Blue or red?  To get either one of those, I think he would have to show a birth certificate, right?

And since he traveled to Iraq and Europe as a Senator, I am pretty sure he has a red (official business use only) passport.

44 Slippery slope. If they allow it once, it will happen again and again to get what they want.What's next, change the term limit? By ignoring the Constitution, this is how the Hitlers and the Castros come to power. No one is above the law or unto the law itself. Is it any wonder why people think we are reliving Germany 1939 all over again?

45 If Obama had produced his original birth certificate, it would not have ended the dispute. The next claim the birth certificate truthers were going to make was tha Obama somehow forfeited his US citizenship when he went to live in Indonesia as a child. Congress can determine whether Obama meets the qualifications for President when it counts the electoral votes in January.

46 No.

Why not?

47 21 Umm...you are aware that the Obama campaign made available a copy of his birth certificate and that the Sec. of State for Hawaii certified its authenticity, right? But this doesn't matter to you why?

That's not what happened, actually.

This is the press release:

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-1 prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

“No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i.”

The thing that is missing from this statement is what information is actually contained on the birth certificate that Dr. Fukino inspected. The statement says it was "verified" but verified to be what?

I'm with Ace. I think he probably was born in Hawaii, but with all the shenanigans we've seen from government appointees over the years and all the obfuscation by the Lightworker's camp, it is ludicrous that a court has not forced them to produce the long form of the birth certificate for Keyes' or some designated election official's inspection.

48

From the State of Hawaii:

For Immediate Release: October 31, 2008 08-93

STATEMENT BY DR. CHIYOME FUKINO

"There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-1 prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.

"Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

"No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i."

49

Rep. Chris Cannon of Utah was willing to believe that Bill Ayers wrote Dreams From My Father

 

Wow! Well, if a wild-eyed right-wing radical like Chris Cannon (R, Chamber of Commerce) believes it, then who are we to argue? One bright point in this election cycle is that this particular loser has been retired from Congress. Now he's free to follow his true calling - lobbyst.

50 There was an election.  He won, you lost.  Suck on it.

Posted by: Geek, Esq. at December 08, 2008 06:16 PM (N5wAv)



We'll leave the sucking to you. You've had plenty of experience sucking Barry's dick. And he'll have plenty of time to suck as president. Now go back to the DailyKos you cretin.

51 Posted by: sherlock at December 08, 2008 06:12 PM (8V5Ut)

Althouse, Professor of Law

Don't be surprised. She drank the kool-aid a while back. I think they distribute it through the municipal water supply in Madison.

52 >>>If Obama had produced his original birth certificate, it would not have ended the dispute. The next claim the birth certificate truthers were going to make was tha Obama somehow forfeited his US citizenship when he went to live in Indonesia as a child.

Yes, that's true-- but so what? He has the obligation to comply with the constitution, being the nation's top constitutional officer. It doesn't matter that some nitwits will never stop criticizing.

Hey, Nixon releasing the Watergate tapes wouldn't have *stopped the sniping* either. So he wasn't required to comply with a court order?

One's obligation to comply with the law is limited by how likely compliance will redound to one's political benefit?

53

Oh please, this was in response to the Truthing of the image of the certificate on the Obama Web site.

Go check out Fact Check.

Or better yet, don't. Carry on...please, I'm sure this will turn out well for you if you stick to it with a monomaniacal zeal for the truth. It's out there you know.

54

"Since the Constitution is now an outdated document of the founders suggestions, why can't Barry assume the throne immediately?"  You will find that to be a true statement before the 'chosen one' or the 'Magic Negro' finishes his first term. In twenty years the children of today will hate they're parents who did this to them.

The only ray of sunshine will be when the left wing liberals figure out they will have to live without constitutional protection also. Then the one with the biggest,  or most guns will rule. Lots of people will disappear in the night and become worm food.

55 >>>He did produce a document establishing his place of birth as Hawaii, which was subsequently authenticated by the relevant authority in the government of the state of Hawaii. Such authentication by a state government is legally entitled to a heavy presumption of validity. The only assertions to the contrary were the ramblings and fantasies of mentally unstable losers like Berg.

He produced a COLB, not a birth certificate, and the law states that COLB's can be issued to those born in foreign countries.

This is the point of the "losers" like Berg. And they're right on that point -- the law does say that. I've read it.

56

The next claim the birth certificate truthers were going to make was tha Obama somehow forfeited his US citizenship when he went to live in Indonesia as a child.

I suspect they would go after the purported Indonesian passport he allegedly travelled to Pakistan on in the '80s.

After they failing to convince us that his actual birth certificate was forged, of course...

57 Posted by: vonKreedon at December 08, 2008 06:23 PM (jvG2F)


vonKretin,

Has Barry given your unicorn yet? Is he going to get you out of mommy's basement and give you a big job digging ditches or are you too limp wristed for that?

58 Remember that  Fykino, works for a Republican governor (one who spoke for Sarah Palin at the RNC Convention). 

Is the theory that she is in on some sort of conspiracy too?  Really?

If you answer yes to that...well there's the reason people think you are approaching Andrew Sullivan/Trig Palin territory.

59

Haha, lame assed whiny insults...they smell like desperation.

60

Posted by: Geek, Esq. at December 08

 

Good old "Geek, Esq". Made any more libelous utube videos lately?

61 Haha, lame assed whiny insults...they smell like desperation.

Word.

62

He can't be the President! HecantHecantHecant! It can't be true! He cheated! He's not American! NONONONONONONONONO.

And you think I'm expecting a Unicorn! Funny.

63

Showing your birth certificate is pretty fucking easy to do.  So why did Obama choose to hide his BC instead of just showing it?  Nobody does things like this unless they have something to hide.

64

Ed, try Google.  I just know one is not the same as the other, and many folks conflate the two, on purpose.  My own children fell into the situation of being born abroad to one American parent (me), so I know a thing of two about this from experience, and a COLB was NOT sufficient proof for them to prove natural-born status, it had to be the Cert.  Not only that there were other tests, such as being legitimately by virtue of their mother and I being legally married, which by the way I had to prove by producing a certificate of divorce from another jurisdiction in another country!

If in fact that is Obama's situation, he is probably not legitimately qualified, and Sir William of Occam would opine that this is the most likely reason he will not be produced the Birth Certificate.

Hasn't anyone ever heard of the old expression about Caesar's wife?

65 He produced a COLB, not a birth certificate, and the law states that COLB's can be issued to those born in foreign countries.

Yeah, but Barry's COLB clearly says that he was born in Hawaii, not some foreign country.

66 Well my question is, after he renounced his US citizenship to become an Indonesian citizen to attend public schools there, wouldn't he have been an illegal immigrant in the US? I'm also fairly sure he never retook a citizenship test.

67 I was always of the impression that he was born in Hawaii, thus making him a natural born citizen. However, his absolute determination not to produce the vault copy of his BC to his employees (aka the tax payers, or has he already forgotten where his presidential salary is coming from?) is might suspicious..as the saying goes, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it probably is a damn duck.

68 Is the theory that she is in on some sort of conspiracy too? Really?

I have no idea what Berg's theory is. My theory is that Obama was, indeed, born in Hawaii and his actual birth certificate reflects that. But that doesn't change A) the COLB is inadequate and B) the State of Hawaii didn't say anything beyond "we have a copy of it".

Would have been nice to have "natural born" nailed down...

69

"There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-1 prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record."

 

Is there anybody in America who does NOT have a "tangible inerest in the vital record"?

It took them all of sixty seconds to leak Joe the Plumbers confidential records. Why is it so difficult to see Obama's birth cert? Or his college records, or anything else about him?

 

70 I question his age.

I think he's 34.

71 58 Remember that Fykino, works for a Republican governor (one who spoke for Sarah Palin at the RNC Convention).


I get your point, but is Hawaii some kind of Red State, now? Is it like California? We also have a Republican governor.

The point is that a relatively low-level appointee who was probably picked because of her (?) medical background is not really the appropriate person to certify the eligibility of a POTUS candidate. I doubt this was a political appointment of a loyal party hack.

And, if you read the press release, she doesn't actually certify what the birth certificate that they have on file in Hawaii certifies, only that it is authentic. (I'm not aware of the COLB stuff Obama may or may not have provided the State of Hawaii officials -- believe it or not, I don't really give this thing much attention -- but it seems to me that the relevant thing is the birth certificate, given the nature of COLBs.)

72 I am very ANGRY!! Mother has told me I am NOT getting a new Malibu Barbie for Christmas even though I've been VERY GOOD and rub her bunions whenever I'm asked

73 Which is the whole point of libertarianism, pretty much. Attacking the right relentlessly to ingratiate oneself with the liberal establishment

Hey, us actual libertarians take offense at that (okay, not really me, but I'm the thick-skinned type). Let's just say I wouldn't spend much time crying if everyone in the Capitol, with perhaps two or three exceptions, found themselves decorating the trees, if you catch my drift. It's unfortunate what's happened to Reason, as they were pretty good not so long ago (check out their piece on our supposed electricity "deregulation" in California), but over the past few years they seem to have decided to cheer on the whole march to our glorious statist future because they think it means they'll get to smoke pot. Small to no government at all for me, thank you very much.

74 And oops, my tag blew up there.

75

barry s.

religion - islam

nationality - indonesian.

76

Hell, even I can make a more authentic Photochop birth certificate than the one he posted. And my mother will confirm it's real. She has as much credbility to say anything I post is authentic as factcheck.org does about anything Obama posts. They are in his pocket, but you already knew that.

What's the big deal about producing the one the hospital has in its vault? Really? What has he got to lose? If there is nothing to it, he should have no objections to letting them produce it.What's the big deal about producing his college records, or medical records. The list goes on

You don't seem to care how ignorant you remain about the leader of this country but others do care.

77 What year was he born?  Hawaii wasn't a state until 1959.

78 What year was he born? Hawaii wasn't a state until 1959.

1961. Nice try.

79 Y –not, you’ve been traumatized by the last eight years of official govmint “screwed intel” ,“neocon obfuscation” and just general gosh damn, official Presidential coercion and dammed despicable lying…!

I was thinking of Jennifer Brunner, but you know that.

Keep the change, buddy.

80 Buck it up!

It’s a new day…
There’s more than a breath of real change in the wind.

Posted by: J_Gocht at December 08, 2008 06:36 PM (N7i+9)

No, it's just the usual foul stench coming from the left.

81 It took them all of sixty seconds to leak Joe the Plumbers confidential records. Why is it so difficult to see Obama's birth cert? Or his college records, or anything else about him?

Heh. Good question. I suspect it's because most of the places where Barry's records are locked down (such as Columbia U.) are administrated by liberals, so there's not going to be any leaks. Joe the Plumber, on the other hand, did not have any friends in high places.

82

Y –not, you’ve been traumatized by the last eight years of official govmint “screwed intel” ,“neocon obfuscation” and just general gosh damn, official Presidential coercion and dammed despicable lying…!

 

Not only has he not, neither have you or anybody else, since those things never happened other than in your crazed moonbat dreams.

In case you've been so overwhelmed lately that you've not heard, The One is apponting Bush and Clinton people to carry on the Bush foreign policy.  Well done! I'm sure that was your hope all along.

 

 

83

Could an elector in the electoral college file to have the documents provided?  I mean if the challenger has no standing, wouldn't the only part of goverment constitutionally enabled to judge and pick the president have the right to get the evidence that he meets the minimum requirements?

If an elector would be the last man standing for that, could a redstate republican throw it to court to force Obama to supply the documents or would it require an action of the electoral college?

84 Wow, the trolls are out in force.

85 What year was he born? Hawaii wasn't a state until 1959.

1961. Nice try.

How do you know he was born in 1961?

86 I don't know much about the constitution, just wondering here: Do states have standing to sue? The Constitution is the framework that binds the 50 states in a Union. A State can claim that they are no longer bound by constitution (and can secede) if a person ineligible for Presidency claims the position, and thus they have a right to demand proof that the person is eligible.

87 It took Stanley Kurtz days and weeks to gain access to the Annenberg Challenge records to find out who Barry and his terrorist buddy Ayers gave millions of dollars to.

88 So Barry does not have to be proven legitimate as long as the people who want to see the proof can be mocked and ignored.  This is a hell of a state you have brought your country to, you Democrat POS's.

89 Could an elector in the electoral college file to have the documents provided?  I mean if the challenger has no standing, wouldn't the only part of goverment constitutionally enabled to judge and pick the president have the right to get the evidence that he meets the minimum requirements?

That was my first thought, that the electors would be the obvious ones to have standing.  They would need to confirm that those from whom they would need to vote are qualified for office.

90 How do you know he was born in 1961?

I see what you did there. I loled. Out load.

91 I, for one, would like to know what Barry actually accomplished at Harvard and Columbia. It's amazing how much we don't know about the guy.

92
Barack Obama: International Man of Mystery.

93 Would have been nice to have "natural born" nailed down...
Posted by: Anachronda at December 08, 2008 06:35 PM (3K4hn)

And if you are born in the United States you are a 'natural born' citizen. That's kind of the end of the story, no?


The point is that a relatively low-level appointee who was probably picked because of her (?) medical background is not really the appropriate person to certify the eligibility of a POTUS candidate. I doubt this was a political appointment of a loyal party hack.
Posted by: Y-not at December 08, 2008 06:36 PM (dC8te)

So, she's just a doctor and not a Republican "loyal party hack". You see, that's when yes, it enters Sullivan/Trig territory. Why exactly would the state of Hawaii have a birth certificate on record, for which they have produced a COLB, if he wasn't you know, born in Hawaii? Or do we only belive loyal Republicans on this basic matter (Does the DoH have a birth certificate for Obama or not?)

94 84 Wow, the trolls are out in force.

I feel guilty. It may be my fault. I linked to this thread at Hot Air, aka "Land o' Trolls." Seems like they hit this thread after that link.

95 People really still take Reason seriously?

96

97 Barack Obama is a Muslim, says so on his Birth Certificate.

98 And if you are born in the United States you are a 'natural born' citizen. That's kind of the end of the story, no?

Apparently so.

99 So, she's just a doctor and not a Republican "loyal party hack". You see, that's when yes, it enters Sullivan/Trig territory. Why exactly would the state of Hawaii have a birth certificate on record, for which they have produced a COLB, if he wasn't you know, born in Hawaii? Or do we only belive loyal Republicans on this basic matter (Does the DoH have a birth certificate for Obama or not?)

My point was that we do not know what her political leanings are, one way or the other. What we know is that she released a statement saying (essentially) that she has seen Obama's birth certificate that is in the possession of the State of Hawaii... and that in her statement she does not divulge what the birth certificate actually states. She only certifies that it's an official birth certificate.

I am not claiming she is in collusion, one way or the other, only that as an appointee whose training is in medicine, not law, she is not the best person to certify that Obama meets the constitutional requirements of citizenship for POTUS.

Do you understand now?

100 Seems to me that the existence and authenticity of Obama's birth certificate was personally verified by the government official responsible for maintaining it. I don't find more than that to be necessary.

But really, if you read into the argument, showing the birth certificate wouldn't end the fight. Then, there's the argument that a baby doesn't have to be born in Hawaii to get a Hawaiian birth certificate

Heck, were I Barack Obama, I'd keep on fighting it. He's not using his own money and the longer it goes on, the more he looks like he's being hounded by crazed conspiracy nuts (which, increasingly, he is).

101 Barack Obama is a hermaphrodite

102 100 Seems to me that the existence and authenticity of Obama's birth certificate was personally verified by the government official responsible for maintaining it. I don't find more than that to be necessary.

The official certified it exists and is authentic. She did not tell anyone what is on it, stating privacy rules.

Clearly if Obama, as the interested party (by her standards), asked her to release the birth certificate, she would do it.

Why doesn't he?

103 Ace, why isn't Keyes precluded from pursuing his suit (res judicata) or thereabouts.

104 I am not claiming she is in collusion, one way or the other, only that as an appointee whose training is in medicine, not law, she is not the best person to certify that Obama meets the constitutional requirements of citizenship for POTUS.

This isn't a very technical legal question. If the state of Hawaii has a birth certificate for Barack Obama that means he was born in Hawaii. That therefore means he is a 'natural born citizen'.

What exactly is there for her or anyone to determine once you confirm the birth certificate exists?

105 speaking of producing proof...

J. gocht always claims to be a veteran. I was wondering if he'd answer questions from actual veterans to establish whether this is true or if he just plays a veteran on the internet.

106 Barack Obama has Down Syndrome.

107

Doubters will have to nurse their doubts on their own for all eternity. Tough luck, you nutty skeptics! Meanwhile, life goes on. Barack Obama will be President. Deal with it.

Ann Althouse, Professor of Law

I am still disgusted by the churlish arrogance of this statement!  I once thought Althouse was learned.  But she has shown her true colors with this - she is a fool, and worse, a fool that is proud of her churlishness.  I hope some day to watch her eat these stupid words and enjoy their bitter aftertaste at her leisue.

It is not up to me to prove you dishonest, Obama - had you fewer ratlike friends, it would never have come up.  But it has, and an honest man would then hasten prove himself so.  That you have not tells me all I need to know, since you will tell me nothing else.

108 >>>This isn't a very technical legal question. If the state of Hawaii has a birth certificate for Barack Obama that means he was born in Hawaii. That therefore means he is a 'natural born citizen'.

Why doesn't he just produce it so we don't have to rely upon the testimony of others?

I mean, I agree with you: It exists. Why is he taking the position he's taking?

109

Or do we only belive loyal Republicans on this basic matter

I'd prefer to believe my own eyes, meaning I'd like our polticians to produce appropriate documentation for "we the people" to examine. We should we be left having to believe anyone on this?

 

110 Barack Obama is an abortion survivor.

111

I am still disgusted by the churlish arrogance of this statement! 

 

She's a liberal law professor. Churlish arrogance comes with the package. Non-liberal law professors and lawyers seem prone to this as well.

112 Posted by: ace at December 08, 2008 06:59 PM (8T2pi)

As I said in an earlier comment, I have no clue.

I do have a wild ass guess...somebody other than Barack Obama Sr. is listed as his father or it's left blank.

Actually, I do have a second guess. He released the COLB which is apparently what the state gives you when you ask for the record. The people who want more seem like nutters (at least the ones who have sued). From his point of view it feels like Sullivan going after Palin and sometimes you just want to tell the nutters to fuck off and you dig in your heels.

If I had to pick one, it's the latter.

113 So all he has done is produce the original Hawaiian COLB which says he was born in Hawaii.  And there is a notice in the Honolulu newspaper announcing his birth on Aug. 13, 1961. And the Hawaii Sec. of State says he was born there. 

Other than that there is a fucking mountain of evidence suggesting he was born in Kenya.  Such as ... I mean there's ....

I mean there's all that evidence that he was born in Indonesia, you know that country his step dad was from, the step dad that became his step dad when Obama was 5.  Yes, Obama was magically born in the country of a man his mother had not yet met. 

Is there ANY evidence he was born anywhere than where all official records say he was born? 

114

One of the co-morons, JackM I think, speculated that the doc is probably authentic but contains some point troubling to the narrative, like race, or named Barry, that kind of thing.

 

Lame reason to withold, but a plausible one.

115

Fuck off Drew.

116 Posted by: ace at December 08, 2008 06:59 PM (8T2pi)
Posted by: flenser at December 08, 2008 07:00 PM (veaV2)

Same here.

This (allowing Obama to obfuscate) sets a very bad precedent.

For a bunch of folks who were chanting "words mean things" all election season long, O!'s supporters seem surprisingly disinterested in reading a one page document and stunningly unable to comprehend what Dr. Fukino's statement did -- and did not -- certify.

You love Obama, fine, but don't pretend that the guy isn't be a dick about this whole thing.

117 Seattle,

No, there's no evidence suggesting otherwise. To which I say, again, so what?

He is refusing proof of eligibility. As a proceduralist, this offends me. Why should anyone be required to establish, in legal terms, "the burden of going forward" before he supplies a basic evidence of eligibility?

118 Anyone who's taken an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States has standing. This has gone way beyond absurd and now qualifies as truly surreal.

I wasn't that interested in this issue two weeks ago. After looking at it in great depth for several days now, I'm beginning to agree with Paul Berg (and I couldn't care less if he's a bona fide 9/11 Truther, Paulian or what): This is starting to look like the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on the American People. And pretty much nobody gives a sh!t.

Berg's case is essentially this: BHO was born in Kenya, just as his paternal grandmother, others in his family, and the current Kenyan Ambassador have all claimed, and this is exactly what his sealed long-form COLB shows. Since his father was not a U.S. Citizen, jus sanguinis does not apply. Berg continues that even if BHO had been born in Honolulu, he lost his citizenship when he was taken to and lived in Indonesia as Barry Soetoro, an Indonesian citizen in a country that doesn't recognize dual citizenship. From that point on he could only have become a naturalized U.S. Citizen (apparently Bill Richardson has made some mention of this, but I haven't found a reliable cite for it), but there's no record of BHO having entered back into the country after living in Indonesia. That's the case Berg has brought to the SCOTUS in a nutshell, and it's my understanding that Berg's petition for writ will be discussed at this week's Friday conference. Nothing like running out the clock.

Anachronda, for a good synopsis of the certificate-vs-certification issue, check Barry Kearns' comment at PJM here. The JPG image that BHO has released - and which has been declared 'valid' by various officials (because it is) - is a digital fascimile of a Certification of Live Birth (just read the top of the image). This document can be legally amended per Hawaiian law and still be valid - so it is worthless in determining birthplace of record. This is precisely why Hawaii itself WILL NOT ACCEPT this document when proving place of birth.

The original, long-form Certificate of Live Birth (aka 'COLB', which is different) that BHO is hiding can not be amended - that's why he's spent almost $1,000,000 dollars with multiple law firms keeping it out of the public eye. It either shows his given name at birth as "Barry Dunham" (Ann Dunham had very likely discovered that BHO Sr. was already married by the time BHO was born - he abandoned them the following year) or it shows that he was born in Kenya and (if so) doesn't likely list an attending physician.

More people need to educate themselves on this issue, as the big-gun bloggers have decided to pass on it and are playing Climate Crisistians by trying to shut down the discussion - calling folks who want the Constitution honored "Truthers". But the first time Saudi, Syria, Iran or god-knows-who runs to the U.N. claiming they didn't like something we did, and adding that the current U.S. government isn't legitimate, we're going to go through all this again. They're not stupid.

Meanwhile, if there really is anything messed up in BHO's original long-form COLB, whoever's holding it has him over a pickel barrel. Imagine that - blackmailing the leader of the free world. Now who'd ever want to do something like that...

119 This topic struck a nerve in the trolls.

120 >>>I do have a wild ass guess...somebody other than Barack Obama Sr. is listed as his father or it's left blank.

Actually, I do have a second guess. He released the COLB which is apparently what the state gives you when you ask for the record. The people who want more seem like nutters (at least the ones who have sued). From his point of view it feels like Sullivan going after Palin and sometimes you just want to tell the nutters to fuck off and you dig in your heels.

If I had to pick one, it's the latter.

...

Yeah I figure that. As for the latter one -- the "Gaslighting Theory" -- that's not a very honorable reason. It's also not a valid one.

I believe he was born in Hawaii. But I am offended by the arrogance and the precedent he's establishing.

121 Even though LOTS of people feel this is a real issue, "professionals" like Malkin, and idiots like Allah, at her Hot Air, dismiss the masses out of hand. I think it's time true conservatives start dismissing the lot of them. Our side has as many "ditto heads" as liberals have Kos kooks. None of the "biggies" took this seriously, as none of them took seriously Barry's black separatist church membership, and Barry's friendship with Ayers. We were told to STFU, and let them handle it. BS. Stop patronizing them. There are PLENTY of actual conservative places to go to hear real conservative POV's...

122 From his point of view it feels like Sullivan going after Palin and sometimes you just want to tell the nutters to fuck off and you dig in your heels.

He's been doing this for years and years now--this isn't a new issue that just popped up with his run for prez, so like his med records, school transcripts, etc. he's just digging in his heels and saying no...why again, exactly?

123 from Obama's own damn website

“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.

Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.”

http://tinyurl.com/3krqn6

124 I believe he was born in Hawaii. But I am offended by the arrogance and the precedent he's establishing.

I'm with Ace. And, with that, ladies, gentlemen, and trolls, I'm off. Thank you, Ace, for taking a reasoned position on this topic!

This thread is frighteningly low on swear words, so I will leave you with my considered opinion that, legitimate or not, Obama is quickly vying for the biggest cocksucker of a President that we've ever suffered under.

125 But I am offended by the arrogance and the precedent he's establishing.

Welcome to at least the next 4 years!

I believe Obama is much more like FDR than Lincoln. Not just in terms of policy but personality.

FDR was probably the most arrogant man in history. He simply didn't think the rules applied to him. I think we're seeing that in Obama already and it's only going to get worse when he is actually in office.

126 DrewM @ 104 - in 1961 a Certification of Live Birth could be recorded for a child not born in Hawaii. Furthermore, a Certification of Live Birth (as opposed to a long-form Certificate of Live Birth - which is a different animal according to HI law) can be legally amended by a party with tangible interest, e.g., the person it identifies or a parent if the person is a minor.

This is the core of the issue: the JPG image of the Certification of Live Birth BHO has released can be perfectly valid and STILL not prove anything about where BHO was born or list his given name at birth. Hawaii ITSELF won't accept such a document for proof of birthplace - they require the original, long-form Certificate of Live Birth for that. And that's the document BHO has spent hundreds of thousand$ keeping hidden. The question is: why would he do that if it shows the same info as the JPG he released?

Is everyone really this stupid??? Does anyone really think Hawaii listed blacks as "African" as opposed to "Negro" or "Negroid" in 1961??

127 Posted by: DrewM. at December 08, 2008 07:03 PM

The people who want more are the nutters? Like an actual BC? Drew apparently doesn't know that a COLB is PROOF of nothing. Demanding the new CIC produce proof is the same as Sullivan vs Palin? The constitution is being rendered meaningless, as is the rule of law in this country, and conservatives are greasing the skids. Great...

128 Caesar's wife, meet slippery slope.  Enjoy the ride.  It will be exhilarating until you come to the bottom.

129

From his own site? Thats a laugh. The rumor is Ace is a multimillionaire. Ace, can "confirm" this on his very own site. Doesn't make it true of course. That's like asking GM to "confirm" why they are in failure and whatever they said would be true becuase they said it was true

 

Really, what is the problem about showing his certificate if there is nothing there? That's one question you have avoided answering. What's the big deal?

130 read that last part again


Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.”

131

It will build one hell of a loophole into the legal system: until he proves that he is qualified, it would seem that any bill he signs/vetos, and any executive order he issues would be void ab initio and effectively a nullity.  Thus, any person/entity could refuse to comply with the law or choose to follow the vetoed law.  Presumably, they'd run afoul of the feds, but could raise the fact that the law/veto is a nullity as a defense.

 

132 yeah, isnt that on the website fight the smears...lol,  and leo didnt need standing, he's suing the SOS not obama for his BC, thought we'd clear the air on that, same as Cort,

133 "I wasn't that interested in this issue two weeks ago. After looking at it in great depth for several days now, I'm beginning to agree with Paul Berg (and I couldn't care less if he's a bona fide 9/11 Truther, Paulian or what): This is starting to look like the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on the American People. And pretty much nobody gives a sh!t."

Is goy a new kind of concern troll? "As a life long person not interested in this issue until two weeks ago, I'm said to say...."

And this...

More people need to educate themselves on this issue

Am I the only one who thinks I'm about to be sold something really dumb when people talk like that?

So goy, explain to me why the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health says she's seen Obama's state issued birth certificate if it doesn't exist? If you concede it does exist but it says something embarrassing, I'm open to that but once you concede it exists, you are conceding he's eligible to be President.

134 Barack Obama, race=white?

135 Look at it this way.  The only way Ahnold doesn't get to be president now is if Obama produces the certificate before the Keyes case is thrown out for lack of standing.  Assuming Obama's history is on the level, that would render the Keyes case moot.

Otherwise, we will be rewarded with solid precedent establishing that NOBODY has standing to challenge whether a candidate is "natural born."  Think about it.  That would mean Ahnold could say "I was born naturally, therefore I am natural born. No steroids!"  and NOBODY can challenge his qualifications!  He cakewalks to the presidency.

136 It's got to be something embarrassing, like religion, his reason for not releasing and willingness to spend the big bucks. At first I thought maybe it was his race, perhaps listed as White, but he's admitted this so it shouldn't be a big deal. This would not have been an unlikely scenario in the early '60s with a White mother. The longer he refuses to release this, the stickier it will be for him. I do not see this going away anytime soon; it actually got some MSM time.

137 Who has standing?  ANYONE who is subjected to any statute or administrative rule that is amended after BHO takes office.  Anyone charged with a federal crime by a US Attorney nominated by him as well, since if he isn't eligible he doesn't have the authority to nominate anyone, and the Senate confirming his nominees would be a legal nullity. 

Oh, and Joe Biden would have standing immediately upon Barry taking office.  Will he ever.

138 I believe he was born in Hawaii. But I am offended by the arrogance and the precedent he's establishing.

Bingo.  Procedure matters.  The requirements exist for a reason.  It is not nutty conspiracy theory to request that someone running for office produce verification that s/he meets the legal requirements.  I am interested, from a strictly academic stand point, as to who would have standing.  I'm sticking with the electors but I think a fellow Pres. candidate also has an interest.

139 Ace,
Cort's case (Connecticut) is still at the SCOTUS and was distributed today by Scalia for the full conference on the 12th.  Donofrio says that Cort's case is stronger than his because it has no procedural junk attached as his did from the NJ Supreme Court.  Donofrio is going to file a brief in support of Cort's case, probably tomorrow.

Both of these cases predominantly rest on the "natural born citizen" phrase of the Constitution.  Donofrio just a couple of days ago conclusively proved that Chester A. Arthur was not a "natural born citizen" and repeatedly lied to cover it up.  By Obama's own admission he is not a "natural born citizen", as a that phrase is meant in the Constitution, i.e., a citizen born on United States Soil of two parents who are citizens of the US.  No dual nationality allowed.

Several voters in Washington State have filed a suit and according to their state Constitution they specifically have standing to proceed.  Their state statutes provide for remedies when an ineligible candidate is elected or receives votes.  That one will be interesting.

The big problem is that although the various SOS in the states have responsibility for running and certifying Federal elections, they all claim that the parties themselves are responsible for vetting the candidates.  They just take a simple signed form by the candidate declaring himself/herself eligible as the standard for eligibility.  The Democratic Party does the same thing, and there's the rub.

I have already written my SOS, state senator and state rep about this and am hoping to push enough people to attack this through the state system so that in 2012 we can have vetting processes in place in the various states.

Eventually someone, somewhere is going to get SCOTUS to consider this issue.  I expect that there will by military people filing suit who would then have standing to challenge Obama as CinC. 

He may very well have been born in Hawaii...or Kenya or....anywhere.  What I don't understand is that a $12.00 fee for a copy of the vault copy of the COLB would shut a lot of this up and here he is, or someone is, paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend these various suits, now numbering eighteen or so.

Well, maybe he isn't the brightest bulb in the chandelier.

140

He produced a COLB, not a birth certificate, and the law states that COLB's can be issued to those born in foreign countries.

For all those who want to yell Truther and have others shut up, here's a hint: when you refuse to acknowledge different words being used, you convince no one. You don't want people to see a conspiracy? Then listen and respond to the actual statements being made.

You think a COLB is just as good as the birth certificate? Show proof. This issue has been brought up a 100 times. If you can't understand it, why should anyone listen?

This issue fascinates me because both sides are so sloppy. Questioning FactCheck because the name Annenberg is involved and was also involved with the org. Obama and Ayers ran? That shows a complete lack of knowledge about the unbelievable amount of money Walter Annenberg gave away and the organizations that currently exist with his name on it. You want to doubt FactCheck? Start by looking at the staff bios and see if you think they would be sympathetic to any conservative issue, thought, or person. 

 

141

"...his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on..."

Shit! So Obama is actually a wingnut himself!  Why didn't someone say so!  Now, maybe if he had picked Sarah for VP we could see eye-to-eye, but Biden....

142 The people who want more are the nutters?

Posted by: JS at December 08, 2008 07:15 PM (iBwh5)

Actually what I wrote was...

The people who want more seem like nutters (at least the ones who have sued). From his point of view it feels like Sullivan going after Palin and sometimes you just want to tell the nutters to fuck off and you dig in your heels.

Yeah Keyes is a nutter, so is the truther guy, as is the lawyer from Pennsylvania.

It would help your cause if you weren't being fronted by nutters.

Now, fools can be right but they are still nutters.

143 One theory that has the dual advantages of explaining why Obama's so reluctant to show the damn thing and why nobody can use it to disqualify him from office, as well as sounding absolutely raving insane, is that the birth certificate reveals that Obama's father is really Frank Marshall Davis.

144 This whole endeavor is getting Sullivanish. That's why I (earlier at HA) got into an all-afternoon argument with many people there (some of whom were citing Jerome Corsi and Philip Berg - 9-11 Truther nutcases - as valid sources of information to make this case) about why this is a waste of time and makes many on the right look whacky.

I mean, all Palin had to do was produce a birth certificate to prove she was really the mother of Trig. Why didn't she (or doesn't she) do it? DO we let Sully off the hook for such jackassery? Nope.

OK - so why then do what is essentially the same thing to BO? I'm no BO fan - I detest him and what he stands for - but those pushing this to its logical extreme are essentially pulling a Sullivan. They've been given the COLB. That's not "good enough." They've been given a falsifiable statement from a government worker in charge of the records in Hawaii. That's not good enough. They've been shown the birth announcement in the Hawaii paper. That's not good enough.

It just reminds me of PowerGlutes and the Quest for the One Fetus. No matter what he is shown, other than the form from the hand of Sarah Palin herself bended on one knee, is good enough for him, and we mock him (rightly) for it. He deserves it. He's being a moron.

I get the Constitutional question and all, but I have a question. Do you really think - at this stage of the game - that nobody has looked into this from any government agency at the federal or state level, and - if they did discover somthing odd - NEVER SAID ANYTHING TO ANYONE? Do you know what kind of government malfecence and dare I say it TEH CONSPIRACEEZlol it would take to keep that kind of revelation from gettin gout?

I know government bureaucrats are stupid, mostly pointless and boring. But sinister to the point of giving Sauron a run for his money? That's a leap of faith I am not ready to make.

Plus, there's the whole thing of this being a distraction from the total and complete clusterfark-in-the-making of the BO presidency, which needs everybody's utmost and undivided attention.

Yes, I called a lot of people at HA Troofer-ish for their tenacious tenacity on this story. Many of them appear to have taken a "guilty until proven innocent" approach here. It bears repeating that many of the folks profilgating and pushin it are, in fact, 9-11 truthers, New World Order paranoiaks, Ron Paulbots, and various assorted other fring loonies.

Be wary, friends.

145 >>>Even though LOTS of people feel this is a real issue, "professionals" like Malkin, and idiots like Allah, at her Hot Air, dismiss the masses out of hand. I think it's time true conservatives start dismissing the lot of them. Our side has as many "ditto heads" as liberals have Kos kooks. None of the "biggies" took this seriously, as none of them took seriously Barry's black separatist church membership, and Barry's friendship with Ayers. We were told to STFU, and let them handle it. BS. Stop patronizing them. There are PLENTY of actual conservative places to go to hear real conservative POV's...

The "biggies" aren't taking it seriously on the merits (I distinguish the merits from the procedural aspects, myself) because on the merits, it's almost certainly crank.

The whole thing started when the COLB was challenged as a forgery. If it was a forgery, then there must be a reason it was forged; the Kenyan birth theory thus was itself born.

However, it was later established the COLB was not fraudulent, and yet the Kenyan birth theory survived, despite the fact that the reason for its invention had been scotched.

The whole theory keeps mutating with the evidence. As old "proofs" are roundly disproved, new ones are invented to fill in the gaps, keeping only the conclusion constant. (And even those shift a lot.)

This is classic conspiracy-theorizing, and as such, I don't want to be a part of it.

As for the "biggies" ignoring Wright and Ayers -- what planet are you from, Hoss?

Isn't this the same "JS" who told me that it didn't matter if Sarah Palin was kinda dumb, because kinda-dumb people need representatives in the government, too?

146

Sigh. There really is a whiff of the CrazySully in search of Trig Truths, or Dan Rather at the National Guard Gate, about this whole campaign. Please take a breath.

147 Posted by: alexthechick at December 08, 2008 07:22 PM (xUOXi)

Way up thread I posited the electors idea but also some random Secretary of State. It seems they would have standing because they have to produce ballots and election warrants after the electors meet.

It seems they would have standing as well.

Any thoughts?

148 DrewM @ 133 - no Drew - please read my other post. Hawaii has (or at least had) whacko birth documents. There are TWO TYPES. A valid Certification of Live Birth WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED by the State of Hawaii to prove that one is a natural-born Hawaiian. For that, they require the original, long-form Certificate of Live Birth, which can not be amended.

THIS (the original long-form document) is the document that BHO has under lock and key and on which he has spent almost $1,000,000 keeping there. Any idea why? The only possible reason is that it lists information different from the JPG image he released. NOBODY spends a million dollars of anyone's money keeping something "private" when the information it contains has already been publicly released.

149 Pretty sure it is. I am still stunned by that one. I put up a post stating that Palin had to wonk-out and get expert on federal issues if she wished to win the presidency, and "JS" informed me, no, that's not necessary, the reason people like her is that she's NOT terribly intelligent nor very well-informed on the issues, just like "the common man," and so it's all good.

Insane.

150 Posted by: DrewM. at December 08, 2008 07:21 PM

O. M. G. We can disregard the constitution, and we are nutters, because someone said they saw something? This is serious debate? This is the same tactic the libs use. Predictable, given the source, but ridiculous still. Say bye bye to the country. Can I get you another Manchurian Candidate?

151 Good Lt,

I am wary. I don't run this story very often for a reason.

Still, a candidate should provide proof he satisfies the constitutional requirements to serve. I don't need any "endgame" in mind (that is, the disqualification of Obama from office) to insist on that.

Is it a formality? So? This is a fucking election of a president -- a pretty formal affair.

152 Posted by: ace at December 08, 2008 07:30 PM

Sorry "Ace". Never said anything like that. Perfect, lie about someone to make their point void. You can debate me all you want, but to attribute to me something I never said, is cowardly at best. No honor in that one "Hoss"

153

Good Lt, there are several differences. The obvious is that one is much more relevant to running for office. Palin would still have been elgible to run if she was a grandmother to Trig.

Second, there's just all the weirdness, from the COLB appearing first at Kos (WTF???), to the sometimes purposeful conflating of the COLB with the actual birth certificate, to fighting these lawsuits, to his grandmother saying he was born in Kenya. None of that helps settle this issue.

154

Updates on the cases are here

the list is here

There is another case pending Wrotnowski (CT) Simular to Donofrio

155 I didn't think about the Secretary of State option.  I would posit that anyone who has the responsibility to verify that the ballots are properly cast would have standing.

Several voters in Washington State have filed a suit and according to their state Constitution they specifically have standing to proceed.  Their state statutes provide for remedies when an ineligible candidate is elected or receives votes.  That one will be interesting.

I did not know that.  Hmmm, that is an interesting potential area of intersection between rights under state law and federal elections.  From my vague recollections of election law, each state must independently verify the ballots and the election of its own electors.  So if the ballot contains a potentially invalid candidate, then, yes, there should be standing.

Now, I could be talking completely out my ass there but that seems right to me.

A more interesting question is standing post-inauguration.  I would say that any individual who falls within a class affected by legislation would have standing to attack the validity of the statute. 

156 By Obama's own admission he is not a "natural born citizen", as a that phrase is meant in the Constitution, i.e., a citizen born on United States Soil of two parents who are citizens of the US.  No dual nationality allowed.

Posted by: rls at December 08, 2008 07:22 PM (k4h7p)

Yeah, you're going to need to show me that in the Constitution, not in some article but the actual document. Here's a link.

Here's another link, to the 14th Amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.

If Obama was born in Hawaii and all the evidence is that he was, then he's a natural born citizen. Full stop, end of story.

157 JS, well, I have a memory of it. My memory might be flawed, but I distinctly remember a "JS" making that sort of argument in the past.

158 O. M. G. We can disregard the constitution, and we are nutters, because someone said they saw something? This is serious debate? This is the same tactic the libs use. Predictable, given the source, but ridiculous still. Say bye bye to the country. Can I get you another Manchurian Candidate?

Hey JS, go over to Donofrio's site http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/ and read about Arthur.  We've already had one US President that wasn't a natural born citizen, although no one thinks he was a Manchurian Candidate type.  The Constitution is the law of the land.  I'm already upset about the emoulements clause being ignored by both Nixon and Johnson.  I think that set a dangerous precedent.  Hopefully in this age of communication the same won't happen with Hillary, because some action by the SOS is going to piss someone off enough that will have standing to sue.

Let's fix it now....not after about half of the Constitution is in the paper shredder.

159 "Isn't this the same "JS" who told me that it didn't matter if Sarah Palin was kinda dumb, because kinda-dumb people need representatives in the government, too?"

"Ace"

Uh, no "Hoss". Never said that.

160 O. M. G. We can disregard the constitution, and we are nutters, because someone said they saw something?

No JS, not 'someone' but rather the legaly authorized officer of that state. Who do you think has the legal responsibility for creating and maintaing those records in the first place?  Here's a hint...she does.

There's a bit of a difference between that and 'someone' off the street. 

And the main advantage the Director of Hawaii's Department of Health has over Keyes or Corsi or the guy from Pennsylvania is she's not a nutter like they are.

161 This is what I mean by mutating. now it's that he needs TWO natural-born parents.

No, he doesn't.

Besides, here's the thing: The constitution mandates "natural born" but the meaning of that term is defined *by statute." Congress defines it. This is not uncommon; the constitution offers many very general prescriptions. The congress is invited, implicitly or explicitly, to craft laws implementing the vague prescriptions.

Upshot: Those looking for a very technical *statutory* disqualification are overlooking the fact that the Congress could, at any time, redefine "natural born" to include Obama -- so even if you "win," you lose.

A statute provided that those born on foreign soil to servicemen or diplomats serving overseas were still "natural born," for example -- which is what makes John McCain "natural born."

These technical claims about -- what, the mom not being old enough to claim "natural born" status for her child?, etc. -- are technical. they are also statutory. Statutes can and are frequently rewritten.

162 I think Ace is going overboard here. Nothing in the Court's decision to denying the stay is there anything about standing. The shocking thing would have been if the Court had taken the case. Whether or not the Court takes a case has nothing to do with its underlying merits; it has to do with what they think is important. Unless four of them are birth-certificate truthers, or unless an important point of Constitutional law is raised, they are not going to hear any of these cases. A case that depends solely on a factual determination, as this seems to -- namely whether or not there is a valid birth certificate -- has next to zero chance of ever being heard by the U.S. Supreme Court, whatever the subject matter.

163 Ace - ignore all the rest, please. It comes down to exactly what you've described.

There’s only one pertinent question: has BHO ever released original, official documentation - as McCain did - that verifies his Article II eligibility?

There are only two possible answers to that question: yes or no.

If yes, then all we need is for someone to kindly point to the evidence that verifies who’s seen it and where they have attested to the information contained therein. Don't stop here and start typing, anyone - please read the rest...

I would contend the answer is no even if all I had to go on was the fact that the shame-blinded, self-loathing blogosphere bigshots like Malkin, Johnson, Morrissey, Moran and others would have produced the evidence by now if it existed.

But the fact is that I know the answer is no, because BHO would not have spent almost $1,000,000.00 this year to avoid releasing said documentation if it had already been released. Duh. Either that or he really is an idiot who has no business anywhere near the federal budget.

If anyone would like to play, here are the rules:

Lamely photoshopped JPGs depicting facsimiles of irrelevant documents that are legally amendable at any time by those they identify - whether they are forgeries are not - don’t qualify.

Newspaper clippings listing births that could have occurred anywhere in the world don’t qualify.

Pictures of BHO in Hawaii when he was already old enough to walk or ride a tricycle don’t qualify.

Irrelevant statements about anything other than BHO’s original long-form Certificate of Live Birth by anyone named Fukino don’t qualify.

FactCheck.org’s word doesn’t qualify.

Snopes.com’s word doesn’t qualify.

BHO’s word doesn’t qualify, above all. He is not a credible source of information. He’s lied about everything from public campaign financing, to Billy Ayers, to Rev. Wright, to tax cuts for 95% of the country, to severing ties with Robert Malley, to pulling our armed forces out of Iraq. These lies have all been pointed out by the same cast of conservatives who now call people “Truther” for demanding that the Constitution be honored to the letter. That any one of them would take BHO’s word on this issue is ludicrous on its face.

Next time some hack wants to play the “Truther” card, kindly have this evidence handy or expect to be laughed at.

164 Posted by: rls at December 08, 2008 07:38 PM

Will do. Be careful here though. "Ace" is not above lying to try to invalidate a point you want to make.

You can put me down all you want, "Ace". You can ban me-it's your site. But lying about something I said is pathetic.

165 I am wary. I don't run this story very often for a reason.

I know you are dawg- I got that from the thoughtful post you laid out.

I just am hesitant to get too far out on this when I see what kinds of nutters (and I mean NUTTERS) are the primary catalysts for this stuff.

Yes, the Prezdency is a big deal and yes I can sympathize with those who think it would seem like a given or at least just a formality for BO to just release the damn other BC and be done with it.

I was also thinking (yes, this is certainly a  conspiratorial stretch) that perhaps he didn't release it as a rope-a-dope/political strategy.

He would cite his release of the COLB as the actual "release" and his surrogates would dismiss the claims as "crazy rightwingers," neo-Nazis who hate BO," racists who can't deal with CHANGE," etc. All the righties howling about it would get louder and more kooky. And then one day, WHAM - it comes out and makes those pushing and pushing it look like, well, Andrew Sullivan. We'll never hear the end of it.

In this instance, I'm just urging my comrades in arms to show restraint. Curiosity is not necessarily harmful, but just be careful how far and how hard you are willing to go with this, because if it's a rope-a-dope or something like it (not totally out of the realm of possibility for a political animal like BO and his staff of astroturfing loonbats), it's gonna be an omlettle on everyone's face, whether we went for it or not.

HOOAH!

166 From his own site? Thats a laugh. The rumor is Ace is a multimillionaire. Ace, can "confirm" this on his very own site. Doesn't make it true of course. That's like asking GM to "confirm" why they are in failure and whatever they said would be true becuase they said it was true

No it isn't.  Nobody's asking Obama to prove a negative or to produce documents that don't exist.  We know the document exists.  It's not like anybody's saying, "Prove you didn't renounce your US citizenship to get an Indonesian passport to get to Pakistan."  That's asking somebody to produce something that may not exist.

The BC exists.  We know where it is and who has it.  I think this is nothing more than the usual Obama arrogance.  A middle finger, if you will, to the rest of the country.

167 Posted by: DrewM. at December 08, 2008 07:41 PM

Great "logic". Hey, from now on, we don't need the courts or the law or that dumb old constitution! Just find someone to say "Yup, I saw it!" Case closed. Good God...

168

Obama -

Selected, not elected.

169 If Obama was born in Hawaii and all the evidence is that he was, then he's a natural born citizen. Full stop, end of story.

No, he is a "native born citizen", not a "natural born citizen".  The framers were all, for the most part, "native born citizens", but none were "natural born citizens" and so they grandfathered themselves into the Constitutional eligibility. 

If you read Donofrio and Cort W (I'm not trying that name) suits you'll sell what they are getting at.  Also at Donofrio's site http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/ is the "expose" on Chester Arthur. 

170 - SIMPLE FACT -

The Hawaii "Certificate of Live Birth" published by the Obama camp is invalid.

Says so right on the bottom, "Any alterations invalidate this certificate", Obama camp altered (obliterated) the certificate number.

171 Posted by: rls at December 08, 2008 07:46 PM (k4h7p)

So, um, I won't be getting that Constitutional cite on the two parent thing?

Darn.

172 Any citizen has sufficient standing to bring a case like this in my opinion; after all it is part of the electoral process and the constitution. Denying that means the courts think it takes special privilege and status to heed the constitution or even bring up questions about it - clearly an awful thing for the Republic and something the founding fathers would have considered horrific and tyrannical. Yet, from what we know of the courts, not a surprising decision, either.

173 105 speaking of producing proof...

J. gocht always claims to be a veteran. I was wondering if he'd answer questions from actual veterans to establish whether this is true or if he just plays a veteran on the internet.
Posted by: ace at December 08, 2008 06:56 PM (8T2pi)

It’s rather difficult to maintain written discourse, Ace; when you arbitrarily delete my comments when they don’t fit your own, personal, political agenda…

and blah blah blah blah and words and blah blah and I'm hoping if I get all self righteous, then you all won't notice I'm dodging this challenge because I'm a fraud.

174 Here's a previous post I did noting JS's odd argument...

http://minx.cc/?post=278325

No cite there, alas. I'm looking for it now.

I have however learned from JS that I was partly responsible for McCain's loss by banning racist language on the site:

http://minx.cc/?blog=86&post=277522#c3344274

I'll find the original quote.

I remember bringing it up with steve that same day.

175

In this instance, I'm just urging my comrades in arms to show restraint. Curiosity is not necessarily harmful, but just be careful how far and how hard you are willing to go with this, because if it's a rope-a-dope or something like it (not totally out of the realm of possibility for a political animal like BO and his staff of astroturfing loonbats), it's gonna be an omlettle on everyone's face, whether we went for it or not.

I disagree. I am very fond of the truth. Whether it's convenient or not. I'm not going to regret asking questions about unclear issues, like COLB vs. birth certificate because some people are screaming about how what his step-father wrote on a school form PROVES he was an Indonesian citizen.

If Obama is stringing people along to make them look stupid, that's piss poor behavior and hopefully there will be someone to call him on it.

176

BHO could have been born in Kenya and still have a US birth cert… and one that is hard to tell if he was born in Kenya….

http://tinyurl.com/5e7tpd

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

(c) The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91. [L 1982, c 182, §1]

177 Drew,

I'm not an attorney, but I did read it and I pointed you to Donofrio's site, where he lays out the argument, the case was some weird name like "Alk" or something, I'll see if I can go dig it up if you don't want to go read the suits and the background on Arthur.  Donofrio is an attorney and he lays out a pretty convincing case for the "natural born citizen" distinction. 

178 Well, I don't know about that, lemmiwinks, but it says he is a Moslim on his Indonesian school record.

http://blogsey.billsey-christian.net /articles/08/11/ObamaNotEligible.pdf

(space inserted after "net")

179 Barack Obama has 2 daddys.

180

Hi Ace,

“Standing” was the transparent pretext used by the judge in Berg’s suit to abdicate his federal responsibility.

This case, however, is different, because the state of Washington confers standing on all registered voters to challenge ineligible candidates.

As with all con artists, sooner or later someone’s going to catch Obama.

181 Don't have time to read through all the comments to see if someone else noted this, but as a Reason appreciator, I should point out that it's not Reason itself but really just Dave Weigel who goes to such great lengths to obsess over and then dismiss fringe criticisms of Obama. His libertarianism is definitely questionable and often questioned by commenters there. Calling anyone at Reason other than Weigel (and Steve Chapman) a 'wild eyed liberal posing as a libertarian' is pretty absurd if you pay attention to the other writers there.

182 Alana, the Islamic thing is a non-sequitur, except as a contradiction to his claim to have never been Muslim.  The fact is that his parents/stepparents/grandparents spoke for him before he was 18 and courts have ruled that your guardians cannot jeopardize your citizenship birthright.  Even if Lolo Soetoro had renounced little Barry's citizenship for him, he would still be a natural born citizen if he were born in Hawaii.

One thing, I do find it funny that, when it comes to citizenship that the liberals have all of a sudden discovered "plain wording" even though it is clear that the framers of that amendment did not intend for it to mean birthright citizenship but to grant citizenship to the slaves.  Of course, I believe in "plain wording" but I apply it to the rest of the document too, not just the 14th.

183 Why won't Obama show his birth certificate?  It's easy, really - because he is playing a power game.  He has the power, we don't.  He knows that if he can keep this birth certificate thing dragging on and on and on, he can make the entire Republican Party look like a bunch of deranged idiots out on some Truther quest to uncover hidden conspiracies.  You just wait.  It will come up again - there will be some upcoming vote on some part of Obama's socialist agenda, Republicans will make some counter argument, and Obama will respond "you are going to listen to THEM?  Why they still think I was born in Indonesia or something.  How crazy is that?"

184 Found the Richardson quote. From his own mouth.

Very interesting what these dudes say when they don't think word will get back to the unsophisticated, English-only crowd...

185 Posted by: rls at December 08, 2008 07:52 PM (k4h7p)

Let me ask you a simple question...is it possible for someone to be born within one of the 50 states and yet for them to still be ineligible to be President based on your understanding of the 'natural born' citizen language?

I swear it's not a trick question (I'm not an attorney either, so we're even there), I just want to see where you are coming from.

186 @rls:

If that person took citizenship of another country and renounced his US citizenship, he would loose his natural born status.

187 DrewM and Ace - on the 'two parent' thing...

Obama's biological father was a Kenyan citizen and Obama's mother a U.S. citizen who was not old enough to register Obama's birth in Hawaii as a "natural born" United States Citizen.

The laws on the books at the time of BHO's birth (Nationality Act of 1940, rev. 1952) required the U.S. Citizen to have resided in the U.S. for ten years, five of which were after the age of 14. Ann Dunham was only 18 when BHO was born.

And I would DEARLY LOVE to see Congress be forced to pass legislation recognizing BHO as a "naturalized" citizen when he was not.

188 ... that would be "natural born" citizen when he was not.

189 I am removing my tinfoil beret for a moment.
Just show us the f'ing birth certificate.  It'll take 3, 5 minutes tops.  Problem solved.  What infuriates me is that the One is so arrogant he can just blow things off as if we are a pesky fly on the potato salad at the family picnic.
He really annoys me.

190 I mean, all Palin had to do was produce a birth certificate to prove she was really the mother of Trig. Why didn't she (or doesn't she) do it? DO we let Sully off the hook for such jackassery? Nope.

OK - so why then do what is essentially the same thing to BO?

Trig Palin's parentage has no direct bearing on whether Sarah Palin is/was constitutionally qualified to be VP.  Barack Obama's citizenship status has direct bearing on whether Obama is constitutionally qualified to be president.  You're comparing apples and oranges.

191 Posted by: ace at December 08, 2008 07:28 PM (8T2pi)

The initial clamor over the birth certificate started up as a "where there's smoke, there's fire" argument because Barry wouldn't release it.

It's not reasonable to think that Team Obama wouldn't choose to just release the thing and put out the fire instead of pouring gasoline on it by sending a jpeg to Kos (IIRC) if there wasn't something in the certificate they wanted to hide. My suspicion is "RACE = CAUCASIAN"

192 Obama's biological father was a Kenyan citizen and Obama's mother a U.S. citizen who was not old enough to register Obama's birth in Hawaii as a "natural born" United States Citizen.

Posted by: goy at December 08, 2008 08:23 PM (G3AZj)

And that's what in my opinion makes you a conspiracy theorist. That argument only applies if Obama was born outside the United States.

He was born in Hawaii. There's the COLB, there's the contemporary newspaper account, there's the word of the two people who have statutory responsibility for those records that it exists and you have what saying otherwise?

Let me say this again...if Obama was born in Hawaii then he is a natural born citizen and thus eligible to be President. You may not like it but there's a Supreme Court case going all the way back to 1898 (United States v. Wong Kim Ark) on that point.

193 If Obama was being honest why wasn't the COLB (Certification of Live Birth) released to the press? Why was it posted to the DailyKos instead of his own website? Why was a obviously forged COLB (the Haye I.B Ahphorgerie image) issued by the posters at DailyKos within hours of a request? How is that trustworthy? Obama is the only one who can release the COLB and he gave it to DailyKos. Why? Plausible deniability?

The posted COLB has not been authenticated by anyone! The vault copy in Hawaii could be totally different than the COLB and we would never have that information without Obama releasing it. He could post a forged COLB and the Hawaiian officials couldn't correct that publically. The vault copy could have been amended, say from a Kenyan birth to a Hawaiian birth and that change would be reflected in a real COLB.

The birth announcements in the Honolulu Advertiser and the Star Bulletin  are automatically generated from registering a birth at a hospital. That does not mean the birth took place there, just that it was registered there.

The Certificate of Hawaiian Birth program was established in 1911, during the territorial era, to register a person born in Hawaii who was one year old or older and whose birth had not been previously registered in Hawaii. The Certificate of Hawaiian Birth Program was terminated in 1972, during the statehood era.

http://hawaii.gov/health/ vital-records/vital-records/hawnbirth.html

The computer-generated Certification of Live Birth is used by the state of Hawaii IN LIEU OF the Certificate of Live Birth, or if originally filed, a Delayed Certificate of Birth, or even a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth. For verification purposes, however, the Certification of Live Birth does not indicate which birth record root document(s) that the Certification is based upon.

The Certification of Live Birth is the JPEG posted by DailyKos and the Obama people. Commonly known as a COLB.

The Certificate of Live Birth, sometimes called the long form, or vault copy birth certificate shows details such as the hospital, doctor or midwifes names, witness signatures, etc.

More here...

http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/ articles.php?boardId=458505&articleId=1979623&func=5&channel=News

Sun Yat-sen was born on 12 November 1866, in China to a peasant family in the village of Cuiheng, Xiangshan county , Guangzhou prefecture, Guangdong province (26 km or 16 miles north of Macau)

Sun Yat-sen got a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth! This clealy states that he was born in the Hawaiian islands which is false.

194 You folks oughta at least read this and respond to it if you want to just brush this guy off - and anyone who believes remotely like he does - as a "nutter".

"Nutter" is real convenient. Doesn't require any effort whatsoever. Label someone and you can dismiss them.

Huh... where have I seen that tactic used before.

Oh yeah. I remember. Rule 5. Alinsky. Leftist retreat when no facts are available.

Wake up, guys. This is not "Trig Trutherism" here. Different paint. Different brush. Obama spent a million bucks of someone's money hiding something in his original, long-form COLB, currently sealed from view by the Governor of Hawaii. If it turns out to be something vital to every American, isn't it worth turning over ALL the rocks to find out?

195 Alana, the Islamic thing is a non-sequitur, except as a contradiction to his claim to have never been Muslim. 

Oh, I know.  I was just being flippant to Lemmiwinks. 

I'm with Ace on this whole thing.  I figure Obama was probably born in Hawaii.   I would like the see the official birth certificate, though, or have a judge confirm it.  I feel it is our right as citizens, and Obama's responsibility to produce.

But regarding these arguments about having "egg on our faces" for wanting to see more definitive evidence for eligibility for office, I've never been one to shrink in horror at the idea of having possible egg on my face.  I don't bend much to mockery as a weapon.

Particularly since, as unlikely as it may be, there could turn out to be a whole lot of egg on a whole lot of faces of those who weren't concerned about this.  In fact, the whole egg-on-face argument revolves singularly around how many appear to be on the "winning" side.  I've never been one to feel I need to rush over to the "winning" side just to save face.  I'm more intent on the facts.  Name-calling doesn't convince me.

In any case, the whole sorry episode bodes ill for Obama's character, even if we were ultimately presented with full-color home movies of his birth at a Honolulu hospital, with the Pope himself as a witness.

196 full-color home movies of his birth

At least it would be better than SWAP.avi.

197 "Nutter" is real convenient. Doesn't require any effort whatsoever. Label someone and you can dismiss them.

Keyes is a political gadfly.

Corsi is a 9/11 Truther. If you can't call the Truthers nutters, something has gone really wrong.

And the guy from PA, I can't remember his name but I did a post about him and he's a serial suer.

So yeah, I'm go with nutters based on their histories.

198 Let me ask you a simple question...is it possible for someone to be born within one of the 50 states and yet for them to still be ineligible to be President based on your understanding of the 'natural born' citizen language?

Sure there are several.  The case you cited, Wong Kim Ark was the one I was trying to remember.  Ark would not be a natural born citizen, he would be a native born citizen, any child born here of diplomats are not natural born citizens and according to the case you cited, re our Constitution and Common Law, any child born in the states with a US Citizen mother and a foreign national father would be a citizen, but not a natural born citizen.

The distinction is "jurisdiction" or "allegiance".  The child would be under the jurisdiction of the country of the father not the mother.  Donofrio and Cort both cite and rely on the Ark case.

199 This shit is silly. America lost because the media protected a racist, America hating SOB dolt. They were aided by "conservatives" who thought that by trashing the Repub nominee, they would look sooooo coooool, and secure their position as "THE most conservative conservative. Ever! Really, Ever!!" Asswipes all. Not ONE, including your deluded host, had the stones to call Barry exactly what he IS-a racist. In fact, he forbade teasing blacks/ Barry, by using the very same language they do (and some funny shit too, like the actual word "niggardly"). Now, they want to stay relevant, so they cook Sarah. Fuck you. Sarah is an amazing woman, and a great American. Much more so than any of you worthless talkies/ bloggers. I know, I'm banned. Better get going on those Down Syndrome baby stories. Good luck down the road boys...

That's what I said, "Ace" and I stand by it. You said this:
"...I have however learned from JS that I was partly responsible for McCain's loss by banning racist language on the site..."

No "Ace", not "racist language" (Shudder!!), Making fun of by using Ebonics. Waaaaaay different.

I also said: "...Sarah is an amazing woman, and a great American..."

That doesn't quite fit your ridiculous lie about what I said, does it "Hoss"? I think she's an amazing woman, who is also "kinda dumb"? Pathetic. All that's left for you to do is "find" (er, cut and paste. Hurry Drew!) me saying anything like that.

Pathetic. If you were an honorable man, and apologized for lying about me, I'd accept it. Not. Holding. Breath...

Can't wait to see what you "found".....

200 Fine, if you want I'll send you a digital picture of me in my yellow Star Trek captain's shirt. That should solve the matter of my heroic service to my country.

201 DrewM @ 192 -

Let's get this last bit out of the way first:

Let me say this again...if Obama was born in Hawaii then he is a natural born citizen and thus eligible to be President.

I agree 100%, with one caveat: if he lost his citizenship at any time, that brings your statement into legal question. One of Berg's assertions is that he lost his citizenship when he became a "natural citizen" of Indonesia, which he did according to documentation brought back from Indonesia. If that all holds up, that's something a court would have to decide.


Now...

And that's what in my opinion makes you a conspiracy theorist. That argument only applies if Obama was born outside the United States.

You're right about everything but the conspiracy theorist bit. I don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to know that the frelling KENYAN AMBASSADOR believes BHO was born in Kenya. Others in BHO's family have made similar claims according to documents filed with Berg's writ. Here's the important part: I don't have to believe them. The point is that this sheds doubt on where he was born. The simplest way to REMOVE that doubt is to compel BHO to release his original, long-form COLB - the one sealed by Governor Lingle and which he has spent almost $1,000,000 keeping hidden. The one that will show is actual place of birth and which CAN NOT have been amended, legally.

- He was born in Hawaii.

That's what he claims, yes. He may very well have been. Nothing definitive has been produced as yet to verify this.

There's the COLB, ...

There are TWO "COLBs", and this is part of the confusion.

This is the point you keep missing. The JPG image is a facsimile of a CERTIFICATION OF LIVE BIRTH (read the top of the form). That is what was released by BHO - a document that is issued for children born out-of-state - see the statute references I posted above from the State of Hawaii web site. This sort of document can be legally amended by tangibly interested parties at any time, however, which is why Hawaii WILL NOT accept it as proof of natural-born citizenship in Hawaii. For that, one needs the original, long-form copy of the COLB or a CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH, which has the name of the attending physician and other ancillary info that is MISSING from the JPG image BHO released.

The CERTIFICATION is the document that two people, who have statutory responsibility for those records have verified. It is in fact technically valid. Note that NOWHERE have they stated that it proves he was born in Hawaii, however. They can't, legally, because a CERTIFICATION can't be used in Hawaii to prove that.

... there's the contemporary newspaper account  ...

That's the easiest of all. BHO could have been born ANYWHERE and had a COLB registered for his birth (see statutes in post above). That document would have been sent to the Office of Vital Statistics and reported in the Honolulu Advertiser by rote procedure along with all other recorded births. Note that the Advertiser listing only has the Obama's home address - it does NOT say that BHO was born in Honolulu, only that his birth was registered there.

202 I don't think that you are a "nutter" if you continue to ask that the candidate, now PE, should prove his eligibility.  I don't think the SCOTUS is ever going to get in the middle of this.  There is a constitutional question re the "natural" vs "native" citizen that does need to be answered.  Even with the ambiguity of those definitions, naturalized citizens obviously would never be eligible for POTUS.  Donofrio certainly isn't a "nutter", though Berg certainly could lay claim to that title and not get too many arguments.

Regardless of the outcome of these suits, Obama is going to be the President and those hoping that he isn't are going to be sadly disappointed.  There is already precedent of having one POTUS that was ineligible by law.

203 123 from Obama's own damn website

“When Barack Obama Jr. was born..."


- FULL STOP -

Barry's own posted invalid "Certification of Live Birth" lists his name as
"Barrack Hussein Obama II".

"Junior" and "The Second" are not the same.


Problem here is that not only do the general public not know know who the President Elect is, HE does not even know who the hell HE is.

204 But, even more interesting would be why his mother took him to Indonesia during the Year(s) of Living Dangerously (when the muslims were running amok killing commies, foreigners, and christians), married another muslim, then enrolled him in a religious school... make a great movie... no wonder he doesn't have much affinity for his mother's side.

205 Posted by: rls at December 08, 2008 08:58 PM (k4h7p)

Thank you for your straight forward answer.

You may have had Ark in mind but it doesn't hold anything that supports your opinion. In fact it's quite the opposite. All I can say is you seem to be conflating your personal wishes with the actual law. Under Wong Kim Ark anyone born within the US is a citizen (with the exception of the children of diplomats and foreign invaders).

Here's a short part of the Court's conclusion

The foregoing considerations and authorities irresistibly lead us to these conclusions: the Fourteenth Amendment affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens, with the exceptions or qualifications (as old as the rule itself) of children of foreign sovereigns or their ministers, or born on foreign public ships, or of enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, and with the single additional exception of children of members of the Indian tribes owing direct allegiance to their several tribes. The Amendment, in clear words and in manifest intent, includes the children born, within the territory of the United States, of all other persons, of whatever race or color, domiciled within the United States.

The Congress can add people to the category of 'natural born citizen' (like McCain who was born in the Panama Canal zone) but they can't exclude people who were born within the boundaries of the US.

You are making a distinction (native v. natural) that doesn't exist anywhere but in your mind when it comes to children born on US soil.

If you accept that Obama was born in Hawaii, then based on the law since 1898, you have to accept that he is eligible to be President.

206 At breakfast, Mother made me waffles and I showed her how I could kill 23 guys with my fork and hot syrpuses!

207 Posted by: goy at December 08, 2008 09:00 PM (G3AZj)

Your point by point 'rebuttal' left out the part where the two state officers who are responsible for recording and maintaining vital records in Hawaii have said they have an original birth certificate on file for him.

They don't give out for births that don't actually happen in the state, do they?

Gee, I wonder why you played right on past that part? It's a mystery, that's for sure.

208 Your point by point 'rebuttal' left out the part where the two state officers who are responsible for recording and maintaining vital records in Hawaii have said they have an original birth certificate on file for him.

They don't give out for births that don't actually happen in the state, do they?DrewM

Yes, actually they do!

Sun Yat-sen was born on 12 November 1866, in China to a peasant family in the village of Cuiheng, Xiangshan county , Guangzhou prefecture, Guangdong province (26 km or 16 miles north of Macau)

Sun Yat-sen got a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth! This clearly states that he was born in the Hawaiian islands which is false.

The computer-generated Certification of Live Birth is used by the state of Hawaii IN LIEU OF the Certificate of Live Birth, or if originally filed, a Delayed Certificate of Birth, or even a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth. For verification purposes, however, the Certification of Live Birth does not indicate which birth record root document(s) that the Certification is based upon.

209

you want flied lie? ok-

be ready ten minute!

210 If you don't stop editing my posts, Mother will be VERY angry!

211 So j_gocht,
What unit(s) were you in?

212 Drew, now it looks like you're just being deliberately obtuse. I can't really tell.

"They don't give out for births that don't actually happen in the state, do they?"

Yes, goddamit - THEY DO!! Again, for the third or fourth time  - see the State of Hawaii statute references I posted above in 176.


And I didn't play past anything. Here's what you wrote up above:

"There's the COLB, there's the contemporary newspaper account, there's the word of the two people who have statutory responsibility for those records that it exists and you have what saying otherwise??"

Now you write:

"...two state officers who are responsible for recording and maintaining vital records in Hawaii have said they have an original birth certificate on file for him."

These are two completely different references. The first reference is ambiguous - "it" doesn't specify which COLB (again - THERE ARE TWO TYPES), so I haven't "played past" anything. And it would really help if you would pay attention instead of hunting for "gotchas" and lose the snark if you want to have an honest conversation about this.

I have already stated - and you seem to keep ignoring - that there are TWO TYPES OF DOCUMENTs referred to as "COLB". A "certificate" and a "certification" of live birth. The document declared valid so far by these officials is the "certification".

They ALSO state - and I have never claimed otherwise, have been screaming about it, in fact - that they have the original "birth certificate" on file. First, this is different from the "certification" BHO has posted as a JPG and second, this is EXACTLY the document I've been referring to that BHO is keeping under wraps to the tune of almost $1,000,000. It may be an actual "certificate" and it may be a "certification" (a document issued for an out-of-state birth). I expect the latter, since that's what BHO has released. But they refer to it by the generic term "birth certificate", which isn't explicit, in this case.

NOWHERE have these officials stated that the information on the "ceritification" matches the information on the original document they have on file. It can't possibly, because they're two different types of documents. They're not allowed to divulge that detailed information anyway, according to State law. That's the part that's conveniently missing from the article.

213 Posted by: Travis at December 08, 2008 09:28 PM (3osMN)

Compare apples and oranges much?

You keep referring to phonied Certificates of Live Birth.. The Department of Health is talking about an actual birth certificate

214 @Travis

Heh. Drew's responses remind me of trying to explain to the uninitiated that the term "assault weapon" is meaningless.

You can lead a hoss to water, I guess...

215 Posted by: goy at December 08, 2008 09:43 PM (G3AZj)

So what do you want him to release?

If they release the birth certificate will that satisfy you?

216

The wild-eyed liberals pretending to be common-sense "libertarians" at Reason waste no time in labeling conservatives kooky. Which is the whole point of libertarianism, pretty much.

i'm also going to have to take offense with that.

ahhh i was going to try on find the email response on ARFCOM  from that cocksucker rep mel martinez on this issue but to summarize ....peoples will overrides the constitution. stupid fucktard.. good riddance.

oh and fuck steve murphy with a fucking 2x6.

217 Compare apples and oranges much?

You keep referring to phonied Certificates of Live Birth.. The Department of Health is talking about an actual birth certificate
Posted by: DrewM.

HAWAII DOESN'T HAVE ANY BIRTH CERTIFICATES!

There is no such thing!

What is called a birth certificate is actually one of three base documents.

1. Certificate of Hawaiian Birth
2. Certificate of Live Birth
3. Delayed Certificate of Birth

The fake Certification of Live Birth (COLB ) posted at DailyKos is derived from one of these three.

218 SCOTUS justices are only human, after all.

No matter: 
a) what the Constitution requires; and,
b) how laughably EASY it should be to settle the damn question,

these guys (and gal) have got to be:
1) remembering the election of 2000, and the tens of millions of Americans who believe to this day that the Court "selected" the 43rd president for us and who therefore never accepted his legitimacy; and,
2) visualizing American cities burning, and people stabbing and shooting each other in the streets, and something not much short of a civil war being unleashed, if The One is not inaugurated.

Imagine yourself a Supreme Court justice. Would YOU want all that on your head? You're screwed either way. Shred the Constitution, or unleash total mayhem. Any justice with a conscience is in for some major insomnia.

I personally believe the law should be followed no matter where it leads. And I haven't given up all hope that the Court will do the right thing. But let's just say I'm not holding my breath.

219 Heh. Drew's responses remind me of trying to explain to the uninitiated that the term "assault weapon" is meaningless.

You can lead a hoss to water, I guess...
Posted by: goy

Yeah, its frustrating that so many people don't seem to realize what a COLB is. Doesn't help that the Obamabots deliberately obscured the difference.

220 Travis, goy...

You two enjoy each other.

I'm glad the left doesn't have a monopoly on crazy conspiracy theorists anymore.

Sure you guys are embarrassing but at least you're fun, at least for awhile.

221 Hey Zeus!

The Department of Health is talking about an actual birth certificate.. blah.. blah.. blah.. not even a pretty picture, just hearsay.

Obama never so much as released a valid "Certification of Live Birth" - his crew done mucked it up and invalidated it with the big black electronic magic marker by obliterating out the "Certificate Number". (read fine print at bottom of page)

Now why would he have done that? (suggestion - number is coded to indicate certain some things crew did not want released)

Nonetheless, I suggest that Obama is a confused egotistical arrogant nutter who is not sure that he is minimally qualified to be POTUS, despite a good popular majority.



I expect his first significant act will be renaming DC after himself as reassurance that he actually has all the marbles.

222 You two enjoy each other.

I'm glad the left doesn't have a monopoly on crazy conspiracy theorists anymore.

Sure you guys are embarrassing but at least you're fun, at least for awhile.
Posted by: DrewM

Right. You cannot understand the simplest of explanations regarding documents but we are embarrassing? Hmmm...OK!

223 So what do you want him to release?

OMG. You're kidding with this question, right?

Have you read ANYTHING I've written so far? Or did you read it all while assuming I was some idiot who had no idea what he was talking about because Berg is - in your firm opinion - a "nutter"?

Yes, Drew - BHO must be compelled to release the "birth certificate" that is on file, which no one has seen because he's shelled out almost a million bucks to keep it under wraps. The correct term for this document is the original, long-form "Certificate (or Certification) of Live Birth". This is the document, commonly (but erroneously) referred to as a "birth certificate", which is currently sealed with the Office of Vital Statistics in Hawaii. This will provide the best evidence available regarding his actual citizenship.

With that out of the way, if the document indicates that he was born in Honolulu, then we can address the issue of whether or not he LOST his citizenship when he became a 'natural citizen' of Indonesia.

224 Drew, I'm not trying to argue law with you, I'm just going off of Donofrio, who I think is the most level headed.  He, as an attorney, seems to think that there is a difference between natural born and native born and it has to do with the country of the father, that is, the citizenship of the father. 

It seems his argument is that a child born in the states of a non-citizen father is not a "natural born" citizen, just a citizen - while a child born in the states of a citizen father and a non citizen mother is a natural born citizen. 

And you're wrong, I'm not hoping so much that his argument prevails because overturning the election of Obama and negating millions of votes on the meaning of a phrase would, IMO incite the type of civil uprising we don't want to see.

Now, if it turned out that he was in fact born somewhere other than the US and was ineligible that is a different story.  There might be some unrest but him knowing he wasn't eligible and running as a fraud would negate many millions of those votes he got.

I don't see the SCOTUS looking at this issue - that potato's too hot!

225 Kathy from K - that's been on my mind all week. I wouldn't want to be on the SCOTUS bench this month for all the tea in Hoboken.

226 Yes, Drew - BHO must be compelled to release the "birth certificate" that is on file, which no one has seen because he's shelled out almost a million bucks to keep it under wraps.

goy,

Whoa, wait a second here. You admit there is 'birth certificate', that's good. Do you accept that this 'birth certificate' is the same "orginal birth certificate" the Director of the Hawaii DoH says she's seen?

227 It seems his argument is that a child born in the states of a non-citizen father is not a "natural born" citizen, just a citizen - while a child born in the states of a citizen father and a non citizen mother is a natural born citizen.

I don't know what to say beyond read US v. Wong Kim Ark. That's the controlling case (has been for over a century) or just the excerpt I quoted above. No where does that case make the distinction you are quoting.

I understand you are relying on someone else but read it for yourself and you'll see he's just wrong.

228 Drew, there is a birth certificate (vault copy - otherwise known as "original") on file, currently sealed, in Hawaii.  It has all the information on it; attending physician, place of birth, hospital (or other place), you know, just like our birth certificates.  Now what is on it, is another question.

Give you an example.  My two children are both adopted.  My daughter when she was five and my son when he was nine.  After the adoption was final we had to apply for "new" birth certificates for them.  Those certificates are not the originals, with the original information - these are dated the same as the originals with information substituted.  These are the official documents of birth of these children, you cannot find the old birth certificates in any database anywhere. 

I never thought anything of it up until this stuff came up.

229 I don't see the SCOTUS looking at this issue - that potato's too hot!

Other than trying to sweep it under the rug (as many seem to be trying), most, and I would suspect the SCOTUS would recognize having one verifiable citizen parent would make one 'natural born' regardless of the technicalities of the current/past regs... words mean things... but words do not trump reality.

For example, recently regs are changed in that having at least one US citizen parent, born overseas, one does not need to be 'naturalized' to be recognized as, uhhh, natural born US citizen.

230 Posted by: rls at December 08, 2008 10:15 PM (k4h7p)

I said before I think there maybe something embarrassing on his original.

My bigger point is that there is one and if there is an 'original birth certificate' issued by the state of Hawaii then he was born there. That means he is eligible to be President.

There are other people who seem to think that there's only a COLB but no underlying 'original birth certificate' (despite what the Director of the state DoH and Director of Vital Records say).

Whether or not there's something he doesn't want people to know doesn't impact his constitutional eligibility.

231 DrewM

Having a "birth certificate' on record does not mean he was born in Hawaii. That is fact!

I actually think he probably was (60% chance) but that isn't proof. The "birth certificate" (one of three possible documents) would allow the case to be settled. If Obama has something embarrassing on the BC then submit it for validation to the Supremes and let the country get on with it.

232 Posted by: DrewM. at December 08, 2008 10:07 PM (hlYel)

Whoa, wait a second here. You admit there is 'birth certificate', that's good. Do you accept that this 'birth certificate' is the same "orginal birth certificate" the Director of the Hawaii DoH says she's seen?

Ooooookay Drew, now you really are being fucking deliberately obtuse.

I don't "admit" any such erroneous thing. The term "birth certificate" is what's tripping YOU up here. Those interviewed in the article you cited use it as a generic term. That term doesn't have meaning unless you know WHICH of the TWO TYPES of COLB they're referring to.

I have been saying ALL ALONG that there is a document on file that recorded BHO's birth. That document was recorded and is on file in Honolulu. The information it contains has never been released for public scrutiny. BHO has shelled out almost a million bucks in legal fees to fight litigation aimed at releasing it. I note that you're still not the slightest bit interested in why, but so be it.

To use Hawaii's formal, accurate terms - instead of the generic, erroneous and misleading "birth certificate" - this document is either a Certification of Live Birth or a Certificate of Live Birth. The former was issued for births that occurred outside the state. The latter was issued for births within the state.

If you don't understand that much - and your responses so far reflect that you probably won't - don't bother reading further or responding, because this issue is beyond your comprehension. However, if you DO recognize that there are TWO TYPES of birth record documents in Hawaii - a Certificate and a Certification - then please continue.

The Director of the Hawaii DoH has referred to TWO DIFFERENT documents at different times - depending on the question she's been asked. As I have already stated, she has claimed that the short-form "CERTIFICATION OF LIVE BIRTH" JPG image that BHO had posted at his site, DKos and FactCheck is "valid". She has ALSO stated that the State of Hawaii has BHO's original "birth certificate" on file.

But here's what she has NOT stated. She has NEVER stated whether the "birth certificate" on file is a Certification of Live Birth or a Certificate of Live Birth. It's one of those TWO TYPES - but we don't know which and she's never said.

She has also NEVER STATED - because she is legally prevented from doing so by State law - whether or not the information on the two documents (the original and the JPG) are the same. So that point is in question as well.

The crux of the issue is this: a short-form Certification of Live Birth can be legally amended in Hawaii, so that it no longer matches the information on the original, long-form COLB held at the Office of Vital Statistics. So a Certification can't be used as proof of citizenship in Hawaii unless it's the original, long-form version provided by the State. Thus, the copy represented by BHO's JPG facsimile does not qualify as proof of citizenship.

233  Drew -

...if there is an 'original birth certificate' issued by the state of Hawaii then he was born there.

This is where you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

And the reason you're wrong is because you're SKIMMING, not READING.

Hawaii issues Certifications of Live Birth for babies that are NOT born in the State of Hawaii. For the FIFTH time - see the statutes I posted in 176!

234 I have been saying ALL ALONG that there is a document on file that recorded BHO's birth. That document was recorded and is on file in Honolulu. The information it contains has never been released for public scrutiny. Goy

Do you mean a video?

235 Having a "birth certificate' on record does not mean he was born in Hawaii. That is fact!

Are you really saying that if he was born in Kenya or somewhere outside the US he could have a birth certificate from Hawaii? And the evidence you offer for his is that someone got one in 1905? Color me less than convinced.

236 Are you really saying that if he was born in Kenya or somewhere outside the US he could have a birth certificate from Hawaii?

YES, GODDAMIT, THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT HE IS SAYING. AND IT IS FACT.

And the evidence you offer for his is that someone got one in 1905? Color me less than convinced.

NO!!!! Quit being a drunken moron and GO READ POST 176 - wait... here it is again:

BHO could have been born in Kenya and still have a US birth cert… and one that is hard to tell if he was born in Kenya….

http://tinyurl.com/5e7tpd

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

(c) The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91. [L 1982, c 182, §1]

Jeebus Fracking Crisis on a Bike!

237 Do you mean a video?

ROTFLMAO!!!

Uh... yeah.

I thought the leftards were dense.

238 To use Hawaii's formal, accurate terms - instead of the generic, erroneous and misleading "birth certificate" - this document is either a Certification of Live Birth or a Certificate of Live Birth. The former was issued for births that occurred outside the state. The latter was issued for births within the state.

Posted by: goy at December 08, 2008 10:31 PM (G3AZj)

So if Fukino had said, "the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original certificate of birth" and not "the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate" we wouldn't be having this circular argument?

239 ROTFLMAO!!!

Uh... yeah.

I thought the leftards were dense.
Posted by: goy

Thanks! Where can I find out more about this? I want to edukat myself.

240 Excuse me but isnt this the same court that allows someone to take away your home so they can build a cassino? IMPEACH OUR IMPERIAL COURT

241 So if Fukino had said, "the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original certificate of birth" and not "the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate" we wouldn't be having this circular argument?

It would help if she actually uttered the words "Certificate of Live Birth", but that still wouldn't resolve it completely. She would have to very carefully explain the difference between the two types of documents and state which type is on file, and why. I don't believe State Law would permit her to divulge that level of detail for an individual record. Even then I wouldn't trust it because the terms are so similar. She could easily "misspeak".

And this isn't a circular argument. You perceive it as circular because you're not reading everything carefully. I know this because up until your last post you STILL didn't realize that Hawaii would issue a "birth certificate" for a child born somewhere other than Hawaii.

That may be also why you perceive Berg as a "nutter", come to think of it. :-)

Something to think about, anyway.

242 Travis - if you're seriously asking, there's a goldmine of legal references and great links in the discussion thread for Moran's bullshit article at PJM.

I'd also highly recommend Berg's writ. And Donofrio / Cort's as well (though I don't have links for that handy). Whether or not Berg's suit takes the right tack on this, I don't know, but it is well-researched and has plenty of legal references. I personally believe the Indonesian 'natural citizen' angle has legs, and is the reason the SCOTUS hasn't tossed it already.

Some of my best buds are 9/11 Truthers and I razz them about it constantly. We're still friends. So I could care less about Berg's "history". If he's right on this, and he flushes out a fraud, he'll have made amends for his Trutherism, IMHO, and I'll send him a bottle of very expensive single malt.

243 Some of my best buds are 9/11 Truthers and I razz them about it constantly. We're still friends. So I could care less about Berg's "history". If he's right on this, and he flushes out a fraud, he'll have made amends for his Trutherism, IMHO, and I'll send him a bottle of very expensive single malt.

Posted by: goy

Yeah that's essentially my opinion as well. I looked into the 911 truther stuff and some of it did cause me to raise an eyebrow at how dense some of the government actions were, but that's a long way from a conspiracy.

I don't care who is saying it if it makes sense. There are too many idiot professors out there like that Ward Churchill guy for me to respect authority that way.

Thanks for the links!

244 It would help if she actually uttered the words "Certificate of Live Birth", but that still wouldn't resolve it completely. She would have to very carefully explain the difference between the two types of documents and state which type is on file, and why. I don't believe State Law would permit her to divulge that level of detail for an individual record. Even then I wouldn't trust it because the terms are so similar. She could easily "misspeak".

BHO could have been born in Kenya and still have a US birth cert… and one that is hard to tell if he was born in Kenya….

goy,

You see, this is where you sound like a conspiracy crank. No matter what proof is offered you're saying it probably won't be enough.

You have absolutely no offer of proof that calls any of what Obama has said into question. Just nagging suspicions that you aren't ready to give up even if you get the proof you say you want.

What exactly will it take for to say, 'yes, he's eligible'?

245 What exactly will it take for to say, 'yes, he's eligible'?
Posted by: DrewM

Obama could splurge and spend the $12.50 it takes to get vault copy made up and release it for validation. If he's short on the cash, I am sure people would help him out!

246 I'm going to make a prediction. In the event Obama releases his original birth certificate, ten seconds later, Travis, Goy and others will scream "It's a fake!"

247 Whether or not Berg's suit takes the right tack on this, I don't know, but it is well-researched and has plenty of legal references.

Don't believe it for a second. Berg's cert. petition is one of the worst examples of legal writing I have seen.  For starters, it has numerous spelling and formatting errors. Its use of English isn't so great either. That's before we get to his actual arguments, which aren't exactly stellar. He begins by assuming the very issue in question:

"Through extensive investigation, learned [sic] that Obama was born in Mombasa, Kenya." See Cert. Pet. p. 8.

And then he builds a fantastical case whereby it would impossible for Obama, the son of a U.S. Citizen, to be a "natural born" citizen, having already assumed that he was born in Kenya.

In other words, it's complete and utter bullshit that has attracted its own cult of Truther nuts.

248 Drew, the reason I'm NOT a conspiracy crank, and the reason you sound like a drunken moron, is that none of what you've cited is "proof" of anything. Your overstatement, "no matter what proof is offered" is the key here. On the items you bolded:

Ultimately, Fukino's mere word would only be hearsay. Not proof. And it wouldn't matter what words she used or how she phrased it. It would still be only hearsay. You're familiar with that term, right? Hearsay? It's not considered evidence in most cases, let alone proof. Proof, in this case, is documentation - which, by the way is readily available for $12.50 payable to the State of Hawaii. I'll happily pay that fee if BHO will give the necessary consent.

Whether you comprehend it yet or not, Hawaii does, in fact allow a Certification of Live Birth to be legally amended. It can be changed, modified and altered to the point where it doesn't match the original document kept on file with the OoVS - and still be valid. A good example is in the case of adoption, where birth parents' names are removed, etc. This is all covered at the State of Hawaii site I linked up above. I know that's hard to grasp, but please try. The key is in understanding that a Certification of Live Birth - as BHO has released in the form of a JPG image - is insufficient in the State of Hawaii to prove one's birthplace.

As I've already written (see #223), and you obviously skimmed, missed or ignored - if BHO is compelled to release the original, long-form COLB filed with the Office of Vital Statistics, that will provide the best evidence available to determine his citizenship status. But be mindful of the caveat I also listed, i.e., he could have lost his U.S. citizenship as a 'natural citizen' of Indonesia, even if he was born in the U.S.

249 I'm going to make a prediction. In the event Obama releases his original birth certificate, ten seconds later, Travis, Goy and others will scream "It's a fake!"

Posted by: Jack Bauer's Evil Brother

Too pedestrian. We would undoubtedly have a long and convulsed argument as to why it doesn't apply in that circumstance.

Of course, that would require old Barry/Barack Soetero/Obama Junior the Second, or whatever his name is, to release it first wouldn't it?

My prediction is he won't!

250 We know that Obama has never been naturalized. Therefore, either he is a natural-born citizen, or he is not a citizen at all. But Obama has held office as a state legislator, as a US Senator, and is now the President-Elect. To say that he has been an alien all these years without anyone noticing is an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The skeptics have not produced such evidence. The burden of of proof is on them, not on Obama.

251 Thanks Gabriel - I was hoping you'd chime in on this.

Do you have a reference to any evidence that BHO has ever provided documentation proving his natural born citizenship status to anyone in the context of Article II qualification to serve as POTUS? I've looked for it and haven't found it. The JPG image he's "released" doesn't qualify.

For me, this is the real crux of all of this. IMHO, the only real proof is the release of his original, long-form COLB held sealed with the Office of Vital Statistics. Not someone else's word. Not his word. But documentation. To my knowledge, that document hasn't been released to anyone. Ever.

252 Jack Bauer's Evil Brother

Look up Róger Calero and tell me about extraordinary.

Tell you what. How about next time we run a 15 year old kid the next election cycle under the same rules you suggest. He says in a squeaky voice that he's 35. Prove he isn't, without access to his school records, documentation, relatives, or friends. His gramma says he 15 but lets just ignore her, and take a gander at the cool pix he posted on Facebook saying he's 35.

We will call anyone who comments on his age a Hater and a truther.

Does that make sense to you?

253 Travis, are you retarded? Believe it or not, it's actually possible to tell the difference between 15 year-olds and 35 year-olds just by looking at them.

254 By the way, I haven't seen anyone mention what Michelle Malkin pointed out the other day. Obama's birth in 1961 in Hawaii was reported in Hawaiian newspapers at the time.

255 Travis, are you retarded? Believe it or not, it's actually possible to tell the difference between 15 year-olds and 35 year-olds just by looking at them.

Posted by: Jack Bauer's Evil Brother

The point moron is that your idiotic idea of who should be putting forth the evidence doesn't even pass the laugh test. Obama is the one who needs to prove his qualification rather than play three-card monty with the truth.

Or is that too complicated for you?

256 Posted by: goy at December 08, 2008 11:35 PM (G3AZj)

You keep using the terms Certification of Live Birth or a Certificate of Live Birth. Unfortunately for you the actual Department of Health website refers to it as a "Certified Copy of Birth Record" and the form you fill out if you click on that link says "REQUEST FOR CERTIFIED COPY OF BIRTH RECORD".

Where do they fit into your scheme?

And yes you can file for an amendment to the original record but it's not like you get to fill in whatever you want. You have to provide proof for it.

An amendment may be made upon application, but only with the submission of required documentary evidence in support of the amendment. The evidentiary requirements can differ, depending on whether the amendment is court-ordered or, if requested by an individual, whether it materially affects the validity and integrity of the record.

And more importantly, what's your basis of suspicion anyway? I mean other than not liking Obama and his stone walling?

257 By the way, I haven't seen anyone mention what Michelle Malkin pointed out the other day. Obama's birth in 1961 in Hawaii was reported in Hawaiian newspapers at the time.

Posted by: Jack Bauer's Evil Brother

You haven't seen it mentioned because you haven't bothered to read what has been posted. The newspaper announcement is automatically generated from a birth registry.

258 Sorry Drew - I meant to also respond to this:

You have absolutely no offer of proof that calls any of what Obama has said into question.

Well, let's roll back to your assessment of Berg as a "nutter", m'kay? That's your opinion, and you're certainly free to have one, but you claim you based it on his "history" (in truth, you're basing it on your opinion of his history, but we'll ignore that for the moment - I don't have any vested interest in defending him).

BHO's recent history is nothing but one long list of serial lies and fraud. We (we as conservatives, not we as in you and me) were freely discussing this fact up until a few weeks ago. He has lied about numerous aspects of his past, his campaign, his platform, his plan - the list is longer than any politician I can think of offhand. He has committed monumental campaign finance fraud - documented on this very site. If that right there isn't enough to call everything else he's ever said into question then, hell, let's let anyone be President. It shouldn't matter, right? We're not going to hold them to ANY level of standard if BHO's past lies are any indication.

259 Posted by: Jack Bauer's Evil Brother at December 08, 2008 11:49 PM (S7Zal)

Wait, I've heard this, let me see if I get the whole conspiracy.

When his mom applied for his 'birth certificate' or 'certificate of live birth' or whatever, it automatically get's published (because the IT systems in '61 were Teh Awesome!).

So he was born in Kenya, spirited to Hawaii where she applied for a fake certificate and presto! it appears in the paper.

How'd I do guys?

260 Travis, no one, and I mean no one, could possibly mistake a 15 year-old for a 35 year-old. If a 15 year-old tried to pass for 35 and run for office, he would have to sign documents under oath to be a candidate, just as all other candidates do. What would happen is, he would be prosecuted for perjury.

261 DrewM

No DrewM they actually had a guy walk, or drive to the hospital to pick it up. Why? Do you think you have discovered something amazing in that stunning revelation?

262 Travis, do you really think Obama's mother faked his birth in Hawaii in 1961, so he could run for President 47 years later?

263 Posted by: goy at December 08, 2008 11:56 PM (G3AZj)

No, I've read Berg's filing. It wouldn't survive as an Open Blog post here.

It's a list of accusations that cites Wikipedia.

BTW-Here's something on your man Berg:

Finding that a Pennsylvania lawyer had committed a "laundry list of unethical actions," a federal judge has imposed more than $10,000 in sanctions and ordered the lawyer to complete six hours of ethics training.

U.S. District Judge J. Curtis Joyner's 10-page opinion in Holsworth v. Berg is packed with criticism of the conduct of attorney Philip Berg of Lafayette Hill, Pa.

"Other attorneys should look to Mr. Berg's actions as a blueprint for what not to do when attempting to effectively and honorably perform the duties of the legal profession," Joyner wrote.

And I called him a nutter! I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize to nutters everywhere. You don't deserve to be lumped in with a guy like Berg.

264 Travis, if you admit that a reporter went to the hospital, and got his information about Obama's birth there, what does that tell you about where Obama was born? Think really, really hard.

265 You keep using the terms Certification of Live Birth ...

Drew, just read the top of the fracking document that BHO has offered as "proof" of his natural born citizenship. What do you see there? The term "Certified Copy of Birth Record" refers to the so-called "short form" of whatever the original document was. The JPG image BHO released is an example of this.

And you're absolutely correct about how amendments are made. I've never asserted otherwise. The point is that the document can be amended to the point that it no longer matches the original on file and, thus, only the original on file can be used to prove one's birthplace. I'm not even claiming BHO or his Mom ever amended his - the point is that it CAN be amended, so the document isn't sufficient as proof of natural born citizenship, per the State which issues it.

... more importantly, what's your basis of suspicion anyway?

Drew, I don't NEED a "basis of suspicion" to expect that BHO has - at some point - provided proof that he's eligible to serve in the Office of the POTUS per Article II. He's either done this or he hasn't. If he hasn't, then he has not established his eligibility. The only way he can DO that is by proving his citizenship status. His mere word - again - is NOT GOOD ENOUGH. A short-form Certification of Live Birth is also not good enough, according to the State of Hawaii, and none of what Fukino or other DoH officers have said states otherwise. He needs to release his original, long-form COLB to do this.

All of this should have been done by the DNC or the FEC BEFORE he was allowed to enter the race. It wasn't - that's why we're having this discussion at all.

266 Travis, do you really think Obama's mother faked his birth in Hawaii in 1961, so he could run for President 47 years later?

Posted by: Jack Bauer's Evil Brother

I think she may have been thinking the same thing hundreds of thousands of Mexicans are thinking when they illegally cross the border.

There are benefits to being an American citizen!

267 Goy, all candidates for office have to sign documents under oath certifying that they are qualified to run for office. Obama is no exception. If you think that Obama was lying, you must regard him as a perjuror. But the burden of proof is on you. He doesn't have to prove himself innocent of perjury.

268 Travis, if you admit that a reporter went to the hospital, and got his information about Obama's birth there, what does that tell you about where Obama was born? Think really, really hard.

Posted by: Jack Bauer's Evil Brother

Do you know what 'home birthing' is?

It means you can have a child outside of a hospital and then later go register the child. The nice reporter doesn't get the birth announcement until the mommy registers it at the hospital. That could be days, weeks, or months later.

So what does the reporter picking up a piece of paper from the hospital have to do with where the baby was born?

Think really hard about it!

269 There are benefits to being an American citizen!
Travis, you're not making any sense at all. Almost all the benefits of citizenship are exactly the same for naturalized citizens as they are for natural-born citizens. She wouldn' have needed to commit any fraud.

270 Posted by: goy at December 09, 2008 12:07 AM (G3AZj)

No, no. You cited Berg when I said you had no proof of anything untoward.

Please show me something from Berg's filing that moved you to cite him.  Here's a link to the pdf.

I'd forgotten what great reading it was.  Hilarious stuff.

271

The nice reporter doesn't get the birth announcement until the mommy registers it at the hospital.

 Exactly why would the registration be at a hospital rather than a government registrar's office unless the baby was born there?

272 Here's something on your man Berg.

Drew, this is just pursuit of informal fallacy. Nothing anyone else has said or written about Berg has any bearing on the validity of his suit. That's for the SCOTUS to decide at this point. But if you're trying to justify your opinion and at the same time claim that BHO doesn't deserve the same characterization, do go try to sell it elsewhere. BHO is a liar and a fraud, many times over.

As I said, I don't have any vested interest in defending Berg. So call him any nasty names that please you. Disparage the messenger all you like. It doesn't change the fact that BHO has never proved his eligibility to serve as POTUS per Article II. If you have a reference to some evidence to the contrary, let's talk. See #163 for the ground rules. :-)

273 It means you can have a child outside of a hospital and then later go register the child. The nice reporter doesn't get the birth announcement until the mommy registers it at the hospital.

Travis
Really? You can show up at a hospital to register a birth that didn't occur there?

That's interesting. I could almost see if you said she went to the local Department of Health office but no, you are saying hospitals have walk in birth registration offices.  How nice of them!

Jack Bauer's Evil Brother...sorry to jump it but it was too much to pass up. Nice catch!

274 It doesn't change the fact that BHO has never proved his eligibility to serve as POTUS per Article II.

Posted by: goy at December 09, 2008 12:16 AM (G3AZj)

Did George W. Bush show his birth certificate to anyone? How about Billy Clinton or Ronald Reagan?

If not, what's the reasonable basis for expecting something more from Obama?

275 Goy, all candidates for office have to sign documents under oath certifying that they are qualified to run for office. Obama is no exception.

Excellent point, JBEB. Can you point us to the publicly available copy that shows BHO's attestation? Or even some evidence somewhere that proves this actually took place? Is it possible, even, that he never actually got around to doing this because of his wildly busy schedule?

Also, you may recall that McCain would have signed just such a document under oath. He was still required to produce documentation proving he was eligible without anyone accusing him of perjury. The reason was that there was some question regarding the circumstances of his birth (actually those have never been resolved, in the strictest sense). The entire U.S. Senate voted on it.

Are you claiming a double standard in BHO's case? You're saying he's not required to do the same? Even though the Kenyan Ambassador and members of his famliy have openly stated that BHO was born in Kenya? Interesting.

276 Let's be clear. Obama has distributed a certification of live birth which lists his place of birth as Hawai'i. He has satisfied the burden of proof. Conspiracy theorists like Berg and goy now have the burden to show that the certification of live birth is inaccurate.

277 Exactly why would the registration be at a hospital rather than a government registrar's office unless the baby was born there?

Posted by: Jack Bauer's Evil Brother

Who gives a shit what office you go into to register a birth? Why do you think location of the office matters?

278

 Can you point us to the publicly available copy that shows BHO's attestation?

Umm, Goy, if he hadn't signed the documents, he wouldn't have been on the ballot. Please don't go full retard on me.

279 Posted by: goy at December 09, 2008 12:24 AM (G3AZj)

No, you just don't like what he has offered up as proof.

You've shown no reasonable basis to believe that what he has provided is inaccurate or forged, so why exactly should we take you seriously?

280

Who gives a shit what office you go into to register a birth? Why do you think location of the office matters?

Okay, let me explain this slooooooowly. Births occur in hospitals. Registrations occur in government offices. You are claiming that his birth was registered in a hospital even though he wasn't born there. That doesn't make very much sense.

281 Posted by: Travis at December 09, 2008 12:25 AM (3osMN)

Um, hospitals are in the business of providing medical treatment. They do record keeping in the course of that. They are not substations of the state bureaucracy for people who aren't there receiving medical care.

(again appologies to Jack Bauer's Evil Brother)

282 Damn it. I'm stepping on Jack Bauer's Evil Brother's stuff and I'm doing it late.

I'll stop.

283 Drew, that's okay. We make a great tag-team.

284 You cited Berg when I said you had no proof of anything untoward.

In which post did you say I had no proof of anything untoward?

Since I've never claimed anything untoward OTHER THAN the fact that BHO has never proved his citizenship status, I can't see any reason why I would have cited Berg as you describe. I also mentioned that various Kenyans have claimed that BHO was born there, which would qualify as untoward. Berg mentions this in his writ (maybe you're thinking of Gabe's post?), but it's been mentioned in numerous other places as well, including a YouTube recording of the (alleged) Kenyan Ambassador.

Where I DID cite Berg was in his reference to the "two parents" bit way early on (#187), i.e., that Ann Dunham wasn't old enough to register BHO as a "natural born citizen" per the laws in effect at the time.

You also haven't been paying any attention to what I HAVE written, or you'd know that I've posted a link to Berg's PDF twice.


If not, what's the reasonable basis for expecting something more from Obama?

No one in another country was claiming they were born outside the U.S., silly.

285

Umm, Goy, if he hadn't signed the documents, he wouldn't have been on the ballot. Please don't go full retard on me.

Posted by: Jack Bauer's Evil Brothe

Róger Calero was a Nicaraguan national and on the ballot in multiple states. Explain that genius!

286 Goy, did it ever occur to you that these Kenyans might claim Obama was born in Kenya out of pride?

287 Sorry goy, I took your post at 258 to be you referring to Berg as a source.

Am I mistaken in doing that?

288

Róger Calero was a Nicaraguan national and on the ballot in multiple states. Explain that genius!

You have half a point. It certainly appears that Calero committed perjury. If he wasn't prosecuted, he should have been. But you've missed the point. There was convincing evidence that Calero was an alien. There is no convincing evidence Obama is an alien. Also, Calero was never actually elected to any office in the US. Obama was elected to the Illinois State Senate, the US Senate and now the Presidency. And we are supposed to believe that Obama is an alien all these years, and no one noticed?

289 Jack Bauer's Evil Brother/DrewM

Where the birth was registered is irrelevant. The Hawaii Dept of Health would compile the statistics from hospitals and the registry and issue them to the newspapers. They get published. So what?

There are no records of Stanley Ann Dunham at either of the hospitals Obama claims he was born at, so why do you think it matters?

290 No one in another country was claiming they were born outside the U.S., silly.

So your basis for this is the interview on a morning zoo radio show out of Detroit. That's your story?

Oh my.

The guy barely speaks English and it was clearly a leading question. What he said was his grandmother's house is an attraction. I'm not sure he's coping to the fact that's where Obama was born.

I didn't think your argument could get more pathetic but it just did. Well played!

291 Where the birth was registered is irrelevant. The Hawaii Dept of Health would compile the statistics from hospitals and the registry and issue them to the newspapers. They get published. So what?
Travis, please get your story straight. First you said the reporter got the story from the hospital. now you say he got it from the Dept. of Health. Which is it?

292 JBEB: you're assuming he actually signed the document. Did he?

Gabriel: Obama has distributed a certification of live birth which lists his place of birth as Hawai'i. He has satisfied the burden of proof.

I have to disagree, based on the fact that Hawaii itself won't accept this document as proof of citizenship. For that, the original, long-form COLB is required, not the short-form version BHO released, which could have been amended from the original. Aside from this, the JPG image itself doesn't pass a cursory data analysis.

Conspiracy theorists like Berg and goy now have the burden to show that the certification of live birth is inaccurate.

Ok, I'll play conspiracy theorist (you're just pulling my leg though, right - you really do know the definition of the word 'conspiracy', I'm guessing, and no conspiracy is needed for BHO to be hiding his true citizenship status - it would just be one more in a long list of lies he's told). Anyway, I'll be happy to do that, if it is in fact inaccurate, as soon as BHO releases the original, long-form copy of his COLB. Short of that, demanding any alternative proof is absurd because you know it doesn't exist - the defining document IS the original, long-form COLB.

293 Drew, if you distract the referee, I'll clock Travis upside the head with the Championship belt.

294 Sorry goy, I took your post at 258 to be you referring to Berg as a source. Am I mistaken in doing that?

Yes, but I'm getting used to you not really reading what I write. ;-)

I was actually citing your assessment of Berg. You base your assessment of him as a "nutter" on his history. I base my assessment (and suspicion) of BHO as a liar on his history - which is a long list of lies and fraud.

295 I base my assessment (and suspicion) of BHO as a liar on his history - which is a long list of lies and fraud.
Obama, like other politicians, lies about all kinds of things. But where is the evidence he's lying about his citizenship?

296 You base your assessment of him as a "nutter" on his history.

No, I based my assessment on him from having previously read the crap he filed in this case. I don't think that's history, I think it's absolutely current and on point.

I threw in the ethics charges for fun and at no extra cost to you!

297 Goy, did it ever occur to you that these Kenyans might claim Obama was born in Kenya out of pride?

Absolutely! It could be even more innocent than that - apocryphal, for instance. Although I have a hard time believing his paternal grandmother would lie about something like that out of pride.

The important point - in my mind - is that they have said these things and that BHO is a known serial prevaricator. Do the math. If you're satisfied that he's eligible, I have no quarrel with that. I'm simply not, because he's proven that he's not to be trusted. If he were, he wouldn't have blown almost $1,000,000 keeping his original, long-form COLB secret.

298 And we are supposed to believe that Obama is an alien all these years, and no one noticed?
Posted by: Jack Bauer's Evil Brother

I don't know how to break this to ya Jack... but there are illegal aliens out there! Some of them walk among us even as we speak.

However I suspect Obama probably has citizenship though what documentation it is based on I couldn't say. I aslo couldn't say how Róger Calero got on the ballot in so many states.

Dave Ammons, spokesman for Secretary of State Sam Reed's office, said in an e-mail to the Herald that the state's position is that Reed is not required and does not have the authority to investigate the qualifications of candidates for president and vice president.

"Under state law, the Republican and Democratic tickets are automatically placed on the fall ballot after the national party conventions,"

HooYeah, what could go wrong?

299 Posted by: Jack Bauer's Evil Brother at December 09, 2008 12:47 AM (S7Zal)

Heh.

Did you listen to the link with the explosive revelation that the Kenyan Ambassador made?

It's thisclose to being a fracking prank call and goy says it's the reason he thinks Obama was born in Kenya.

300 Travis, please get your story straight. First you said the reporter got the story from the hospital. now you say he got it from the Dept. of Health. Which is it?

Posted by: Jack Bauer's Evil Brother

Who gives a shit is what it is! It's a difference without meaning.

301 Posted by: Travis at December 09, 2008 12:55 AM (3osMN)

So now you're saying your words have no meaning?

Well if you had just admitted that 140 posts ago it would have saved a lot of time.

302 "Under state law, the Republican and Democratic tickets are automatically placed on the fall ballot after the national party conventions,"
Okay, Travis, how do candidates get their parties nominations? They run in these things called primary elections. And how do they get on the ballot in primary elections? They sign documents under oath certifying that they are eligible. Oh, and yes Travis, I do know that there are illegal aliens among us. But they usually don't speak perfect English as Obama does.

303 JBEB: Obama, like other politicians, lies about all kinds of things. But where is the evidence he's lying about his citizenship?

So, again, he's not to be believed about anything, but we should take his word on just this one thing? Sorry. Doesn't work for me. Throw out all the standards then and just tear up the Constitution. If you're not going to live by it, don't pretend you are (you - general, not you - JBEB).


DrewM: No, I based my assessment on him from having previously read the crap he filed in this case. I don't think that's history...

Well, here's what you wrote (#197) - this is what I was referring to:

Keyes is a political gadfly.

Corsi is a 9/11 Truther. If you can't call the Truthers nutters, something has gone really wrong.

And the guy from PA, I can't remember his name but I did a post about him and he's a serial suer.

So yeah, I'm go with nutters based on their histories.


Have I assumed incorrectly that "the guy from PA" is Berg?

304 DrewM

Grow up! Do you really think that this sort of juvenile pedantic argumentation is convincing? You are being deliberately obtuse about numerous points that have been made repeatedly to you. I doubt very much you are as uncomprehending as you pretend. There is little point to any further discussion.

305

However I suspect Obama probably has citizenship though what documentation it is based on I couldn't say. I aslo couldn't say how Róger Calero got on the ballot in so many states.

But Obama has never been naturalized. If he is not a natural-born citizen, he is an alien. As for Calero, there seems no doubt that he got on the ballot by committing an extremely obvious fraud. If he was not prosecuted, I would have to say the prosecutors were negligent. The point is that Calero's fraud can easily be proven. There is no evidence that Obama has committed the same fraud.

306 ... goy says it's the reason he thinks Obama was born in Kenya.

One of the reasons. You have some reason to believe the call and statements made weren't real? Or are you just following Rule 5 again?

307 Posted by: goy at December 09, 2008 01:01 AM (G3AZj)

You got me. I lumped him.in when I shouldn't have.

Still, his filing was shit.

Is that radio interview the source for your assertion that "the Kenyan Ambassador and members of his famliy have openly stated that BHO was born in Kenya?"

308 So, again, he's not to be believed about anything, but we should take his word on just this one thing? Sorry. Doesn't work for me. Throw out all the standards then and just tear up the Constitution. If you're not going to live by it, don't pretend you are (you - general, not you - JBEB).
One of those standards is that the accused does not bear the burden of proof. the accuser does. You're the one who is tearing up the Constitution.

309 You have some reason to believe the call and statements made weren't real?

Wow you are. Niiice.

I'm not saying it wasn't real, I'm saying the guy barely spoke English and he was prompted by a couple of morning DJs who laughing the whole time. It may come as a surprise to you but sometimes people have trouble making fine distinctions in languages they aren't entirely comfortable with.

Do you really listen to that call and think it's a smoking gun?

310

There is little point to any further discussion.

Don't let the door hit you, Travis.

311 Posted by: goy at December 09, 2008 01:05 AM (G3AZj)

BTW- Saying I'm taking a page from Alinsky playbook? That's just fucking priceless. Thanks. There's really nothing better you could do to discredit yourself.

312

Don't let the door hit you, Travis.

Posted by: Jack Bauer's Evil Brother
When I said...
I doubt very much you are as uncomprehending as you pretend.

I didn't mean that for you Jack!

313 Posted by: Travis at December 09, 2008 01:03 AM (3osMN)

Oh, I missed that the first time. Thanks man.

Usually it's very hard to outlast the conspiracy nuts, they tend to think that if they are the last one shouting they've proven something.

Seriously, you have no proof of anything and you've no reason to even suspect anything beyond your dislike of Obama . The people fronting your issue are pretty much all discredited hacks and yet you are following them who offer noting in the way a reasonable theory to bolster their charges, just a lot of recycled crap that wasn't very persuasive the first time around.

Just a bit of advice, when you find yourself agreeing with such unsavory characters, reevaluate your positions.

314 Drew: Still, his filing was shit.

Gabriel agrees. I'm not an attorney or a law clerk, so I can't comment. I might argue with you, but not with GM. That said, Berg's filing could be shit and he could still be right. The only way we'll know for sure is to see BHO's original, long-form COLB.

Is that radio interview the source for your assertion that "the Kenyan Ambassador and members of his famliy have openly stated that BHO was born in Kenya?"

One of them, yes. But as I said, what's important to me - knowing BHO's history - is that they've said these things at all.

Do you really listen to that call and think it's a smoking gun?

By smoking gun you mean proof of something, or there's reasonable doubt? If it's the latter, I think it adds to the reasonable doubt, along with the documentation Berg has put together (whether or not his filing is shit).

There was reasonable doubt regarding McCain's citizenship. He immediately provided documentation to prove his eligibility. All kinds of doubt has been raised regarding the circumstances of BHO's birth, yet his response is to spend $1,000,000 on legal services doing the exact opposite of what McCain did. This is not someone I trust at his word.

JBEB: One of those standards is that the accused does not bear the burden of proof.

Again, McCain wasn't accused of anything, yet he provided adequate documentation. He followed the letter of the Constitution without question. If we've become a country where double standards apply, and BHO isn't required to do the same given the same types of questions - even by those who know he's a liar and a fraud - then I'm sadly vindicated in the worries I've had the past few months.

BHO may have signed an eligibility affidavit, as you claim. Perhaps not. Either way, neither that nor a JPG image that Hawaii itself wouldn't accept as proof convince me that he's done the right thing in providing the best evidence needed to determine his citizenship. The first time it's challenged by some other country, we'll have this same discussion again.

315 Saying I'm taking a page from Alinsky playbook?

Yes. Appeal to ridicule Rule 5. I didn't write it.

316 Gotta fly kids. Work tomorrow. Thanks for your patient derision.

Drew - take yourself a little less seriously. You'll live longer. This is all just a big game, after all... as depressing as it may be right now. :-)

317 Gabriel agrees. I'm not an attorney or a law clerk, so I can't comment.

Sure you can. I'm not either of those but I can still read. Have you read it? The guy quotes Wikipedia for God's sake and more than once. You'd lose an argument here at AoS for that.

By smoking gun you mean proof of something, or there's reasonable doubt? If it's the latter, I think it adds to the reasonable doubt, along with the documentation Berg has put together (whether or not his filing is shit).

Come on man, listen to that interview. They were taunting him to say it and he never really did. They asked if his birth place would be a monument and he said, it was his grandmother's house and it already was. He was talking about the house not that it was where he was born. That's why the DJ asked a second time.

And just because someone throws together some wiki cites and quotes the Constitution doesn't equal 'documentation'.

There was reasonable doubt regarding McCain's citizenship.

No there wasn't. No one other than left wing cranks ever argued that the son of two American citizens was anything but a natural born citizen.  Don't be a right wing crank!

318

Two words for those choosing to die trying to take this hill: pyrrhic victory.

319 Again, McCain wasn't accused of anything, yet he provided adequate documentation.
Posted by: goy at December 09, 2008 01:21 AM (G3AZj)

BTW- Someone did accuse McCain of something. Your buddy Donofrio says he's not a natural born citizen and wanted him off the ballot along with Obama.


For the record, I refer to Donofrio as your buddy based on this comment of yours:

I'd also highly recommend Berg's writ. And Donofrio / Cort's as well (though I don't have links for that handy).
Posted by: goy at December 08, 2008 11:10 PM (G3AZj)

I'm not saying you guys are drinking buddies but you recommended him as a source.  I guess you'll be disappointed in him.

320 Crap. I finish my Bass, go take a leak and make the mistake of peeking here before shutting down, and I see that Ace has mentioned me and my nonsense on the front page in another post. Wow.

Ace - my point was stated as best I can in post #163. This thread.

Drew - I went back and listened to the interview. It doesn't come off as you describe it. To me. The one DJ posed the question in a manner such that he'd be corrected if the statement was erroneous. That is, he was expecting something like, "no, he wasn't born here."

I'm happy to concede possible miscommunication due to language differences, but my sense was that the person on the other end understood the questions perfectly well. Perhaps we're both just hearing what we want to hear. If it came down to it - real brass tacks in court, let's say - my sense is that the Ambassador would say the same thing, only even more clearly, unless he'd been coached otherwise in the meantime.

On the McCain bit - I was going to bring that up but didn't want to cloud the issue here. I didn't recall Donofrio's statement as an accusation, though, or would have said as much. There were actually interesting doubts about McCain here.

You can call Berg and Donofrio whatever you like. I won't be offended. I don't know them, so I can't claim them as any sort of acquaintance. Their suits contain information germane to the case(s), that's why I recommended them. Some of the information they contain - especially references to stuff like the Nationality Act of 1940 - is difficult to scrounge up elsewhere unless you know precisely what you're looking for. I don't. Whether or not the info is accurate or the reasoning sound is ultimately up to a court to decide. They might take a different view of the specific Wiki cites in Berg's writ. They might not. My preference would be not to use them (Wikip).

And... Oh, look - another crank!! :-)

G'nite Folks.

321 Hope this helps. I ran for the Maine House of Representatives in 2000. I was not required to provide or show any "proof" of any kind that I was legally eligible to be a member of the Maine Legislature. The only thing I had to provide was the proper number of registered voter signatures on my official nomination papers, etc. Then I was officially on the ballot I was legally required to file campaign finance reports. Once a candidate is accepted by the Sec. of State, the burden of proof is on the complainant to show evidence that I am not eligible for the office. I don't have to do anything. This is why these Obama lawsuits will go nowhere. He doesn't have to "prove" anything, anymore than I had to when I ran in 2000.

322

173
105 speaking of producing proof...

J. gocht always claims to be a veteran. I was wondering if he'd answer questions from actual veterans to establish whether this is true or if he just plays a veteran on the internet.
Posted by: ace at December 08, 2008 06:56 PM (8T2pi)

It’s rather difficult to maintain written discourse, Ace; when you arbitrarily delete my comments when they don’t fit your own, personal, political agenda…

When that tactic doesn’t dissuade your adversarial, dissenting, antagonist; you make a personal cowardly descent into the verbal toilet of moral denigration, that includes verbal abuse not fit for a fifth grader from a totally dysfunctional home.

All this; in an effort to disabuse yourself of all thoughtful discourse and honest differences of opinion from a dissenting party that holds your losing premise completely deficient in both mind and written word, on your own damn blog!

So why should I agree to your “truther” terms…?
Send the “actual veterans” here… Ace.

Olde soldier sends…!
Posted by: J_Gocht at December 08, 2008 07:51 PM (N7i+9)

323

Now this is what I call a response. Cross your fingers everyone for Chief Justice Roberts to refuse to administer the oath of office without proof of eligibility, that is possibly the only hope. (or Biden could challenge, he has standing)

 

324 someone needs to come up with some kind of 'gate' term for this.

325 someone needs to come up with some kind of 'gate' term for this.

I have a couple of ideas but my guess is you wouldn't like them.

326

Had a conversation about this with a couple of old friends.

Conclusion:  Finding O is ineligible would be a catastrophe for the country.  So, even conservatives who think there may be something to it pretend there isn't.  Unfortunately, they have no evidence, so they revert to the unusual (for conservatives) tactic of ridicule.

Imagine a Biden regency.  The cabinet puts him in the Oval Office and unplugs his phone....

327 I'm willing to show anyone my birth certificate for 10 bucks. What about his BC is worth a million to hide?

328 @118:  Meanwhile, if there really is anything messed up in BHO's original long-form COLB, whoever's holding it has him over a pickel barrel. Imagine that - blackmailing the leader of the free world. Now who'd ever want to do something like that...

I imagine there's a long, long, long, long, long line of such people.

Isn't it interesting that Raila Odinga is a relative (cousin?) of Obama, that he got to where he is right now by inciting violence all over Kenya, that he is a communist, and that he is an accommodationist vis-a-vis the Muslims, siding with them in their efforts to put a good chunk of Kenya under Sharia law?

329 Apparently, as the great Paul Anka once observed, we're "picking and choosing" which parts of the Constitution are still valid law.

Well, as a cafeteria Catholic that works for me.

330 327 I'm willing to show anyone my birth certificate for 10 bucks. What about his BC is worth a million to hide?

It wouldn't stop the litigation from proceeding.  Letting this get to a court room would cost as much or more.  Letting the litigants have standing would set a precedent that would bother him for the rest of his presidency.

331

My friends and I like to buy kal geons, because the kal gold is very useful to upgrade equipment. Only your equipment becomes better, then you can win this game. In kal online geons, you can buy everything you want in this game. Yesterday is my birthday, so my friends bought me some kal online gold as gifts. I am so happy. They understand me so well, kalonline Geons is my favorite.

332 nike shoes cucusoft converter cucusoft air jordan shoesadidas shoes starcraft cd key warcraft 3 cd key diablo 2 cd key diablo 2 cd keys dvd to ipod converter free dvd to ipod converter ipod video converter free ipod video converter nike shoes air jordan shoes fake air jordans air jordan

333

LOTRO Gold for you to prove anything at all? I like Lord Of The Rings Gold, because he can tell me the truth! I like buy LOTRO Gold, it can brings us more energy and soul. All this is only because the nobility in order to show the authority of the game. Although I have cheap Lord Of The Rings Gold, I still have my opinion.

 

334

Welcome to our company which sells all kinds of eve isk, very cheap eve online isk, and the more cheap eve isk. If you have to buy isk, please come to our company, we can give you the best service for you to buy eve online isk.

335 http://www.bestprog.com
http://www.interbd.com
http://www.zappeduster.com
http://www.grupopenelope.com
http://www.42plus.com
http://www.brv-inc.com
http://www.meditacija.net
http://www.aec-dk.com/
http://www.mb-friends.net/
http://seo-mobi.net/jk/
http://www.hmt-ag.com/
http://www.biotechcgi.com/
http://www.hi-tech-reno.com/
http://www.mb-deai.net/
http://www.littlediablo.net/
http://www.ccc-p.com/
http://www.sit-n-shop.com/
http://www.mtdcases.com/
http://www.louisville-realtor.com/
http://www.heartminders.com/
http://www.targetvehiclerental.com/
http://www.mail24x7.com/00/idkb0022.html
http://www.kessel-diamonds.com
http://sincerely-love.com/00
http://www.cambridgeins.com/
http://www.lots-ins.com/
http://www.chihuahuaelpub.com/
http://www.aec-dk.com/merutomo/
http://www.andritz-na.com/merutomo/
http://www.hi-tech-reno.com/merutomo/
http://www.sugudeai.com/

336

Gaia online is a very good game. Through buying gaia gold, I find fun in it. I am so glad that I can earn a lot of gaia online gold. Gaia online cater to the taste of young people. With cheap gaia gold, you can get everything you want in this game. So I like to buy gaia gold. For me gaiaonline gold is not just a simple thing.

 

337 Discount Boots
Womens UGG
UGG Shoes
UGG Australia
UGG UK
UGG USA
discount ugg boots
cheap ugg boots

338 buy Discount Boots
Womens UGG
UGG Shoes
UGG Australia
UGG UK
UGG USA
discount ugg boots
cheap ugg boots
air force 1 shoes
nike air force
air force 1 mens
air force 1 boots
air force onefrom usa

339 Come to our website for shopping with high quality and best service! There have new products,MBT M. Walk
and MBT Lami,Welcome everybody to buy it.

340 Buy discount ugg shoes
cheap ugg shoes
cheap ugg
ugg rainier
buy ugg
ugg usa
discount ugg boots
ugg 5825
ugg shoes sale
ugg sundance
ugg shoes
cheap ugg boots
ugg 5815
ugg sale
ugg uk
ugg knightsbridge
womens ugg boots
ugg boots
ugg australia
ugg 5819free shipping

341 buy [url=http://www.reviewups.com/]discount ugg shoes[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]cheap ugg shoes[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]cheap ugg[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/ugg-coquette-casual-shoes-c-22]ugg rainier[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]buy ugg[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg usa[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]discount ugg boots[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/ugg-classic-short-c-1]ugg 5825[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg shoes sale[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/ugg-sundance-c-5]ugg sundance[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg shoes[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]cheap ugg boots[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/ugg-classic-tall-c-3]ugg 5815[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg sale[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg uk[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/ugg-knightsbridge-c-27]ugg knightsbridge[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]womens ugg boots[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg boots[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg australia[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/ugg-classic-cardy-c-2]ugg 5819[/url]from usa

342 Replica Omega | Replica watches | Replica Breitling Watches | Replica Rolex | Replica Cartier | Wholesale A Lange & Sohne Watch | Fake Bell & Ross Watches | Fake Technomarine | Replica Emporio Armani Watches | Breitling Fake | Chopard Fake Watches | Wholesale Audemars Piguet Watch | Fake Victorinox Swiss Army Watches | Fake Vacheron Constantin Watches | Bulova Replica Watch

343 Replica Breitling Watches | Replica Watches | replica soccer jersey | Fake Cheap Rolex | Replica watches | Replica Ulysse Nardin | Raymond Weil Watches | Tissot Watches | Rolex Ladies Replica Watches | Gerald Genta Watch Replica | Replica Blancpain Watch | Replica Ulysse Nardin Watch | Japan Rolex Watches Replica | Replica Piaget | Replica Ulysse Nardin Watches

344 Fake Watches | Replica watches | soccer jersey wholesale | Replica Watches | Replica Cartier | watches brand | Wholesale Christian Dior Watch | Replica A Lange & Sohne Watches | Zenith Replica Watch | Fake Richard Mille Watches | Fake Hermes Watches | Fake Mont Blanc | Longines Replica Watch | Replica Chopard Watches | Fake Chanel

345 Fake Cheap Rolex | replica soccer jersey | Replica watches | Replica Omega | soccer jersey wholesale | Cartier Replica Watches | Cheap Burberry Watches | best replica watches | A.lange Sohne Replica | Fake Cartier Watches | Fake Frank Muller Watches | Christian Dior Replica | Fake Chanel | Zenith Replica | Zenith Replica Watches

346 mbt cheap
mbt sale
mbt uk
mbt shoes cheap
buy mbt shoes
shoes mbt sale

347 The proper function of man is to live, but not to exist.ugg classic cardyConquer fear of death and you are put into possession of your life. ugg classic tallThere is a time to speak and a time to be silent. ugg knightsbridgefree shippingmbt cheap
mbt sale
mbt uk
mbt shoes cheap
MBT M.Walk

348 hot news for brand shoes online store ,do you want to win more discount ?and popular for younger,and nike air maxwith top quality A ,come on all air max shoes with lowest price for highest quality !

349 We supply authentic discount Lacoste Shoes
Lacoste Trainers
New Lacoste
Lacoste Sale
Mens Lacoste
camden lacoste trainers
lacoste trainers shoes
lacoste camden retro
camden lacoste trainers
lacoste carnaby shoes
lacoste carnaby retro
lacoste shoes sale
New Lacoste shoes
Lacoste shoes online
cheap Lacoste shoes
Lacoste shoe
mens lacoste shoes
Lacoste Shua Lace
Black Lace shoes
white Lace shoes
lacoste swerve shoes
White Lacoste shoes
Lacoste shoes sale
Cheap Lacoste shoes
Lacoste Women Shoes
Women Lacoste Shoes
Lacoste Shoes online
on line, cheap price,Top quality,Free shipping!

350 Stainless Steel Earring Luxury | Plating Bangles Luxury | Tungent pendant Best | Fashion bracelets Yiwu | Plating Earring | Stamping Ring Best | Links of London Jewelry Luxury | Wholesale Stainless Steel Rings Jewelry | Plating Pendant Cheap | Stainless Steel Necklace | Plating Bracelet Wholesale | Carbon Cufflink Cheap | Tie Clip Best | Plastic Bracelet Yiwu | Stamping Bracelet Yiwu | Cartier Jewelry | Cutting Pendant Fashion | Gold Necklace Fashion | Wholesale Corrosion Pendant Jewelry | Cuff Links Tiffany Cheap

351 Chopard Fake Watches | Watches Corum Fashion | Raymond Weil Fake Watches | Glashutte Fake Watches | Replica Raymond Watches | Watches Gerald Genta Fashion | Replica Roger Dubuis Watches | Watches Piaget Fashion | Replica Swiss Army Watches | Watches Zenith Fashion | Replica Rolex Watches | Watches Bedat & CO Fashion | Technomarine Replica Watches | Gucci Belt Replica Watches | Bedat & CO Replica Watches | D&G Belt Replica Watches | Watches Daniel Roth Fashion | Gucci Belt Replica Watches | Hublot Fake Watches | D&G Belt Replica Watches

352 Best Fashion bags | Replica Fashion Burberry handbags | Luxury Bally handbags | Mont Blanc Replica bags | Best Gucci bags | Designer Wallets Fake Handbags | Prada Replica bags | Replica Louis Vuitton Handbags | Marc jacobs Fake Handbags | Luxury UGG handbags | Replica Louis Vuitton Monogram Denim Handbags | Replica Fashion Louis Vuitton Beige Toile handbags | Gucci Belts Replica bags | Replica Dolce & Gabbana Handbags | Mulberry Fake Handbags | Best Fashion bags | Coach Replica bags | Luxury S.T. Dupont handbags | Gucci Wallets Replica bags | Replica Chloe Handbags | Coach Fake Handbags | Luxury S.T. Dupont handbags | Luxury Chanel handbags | Best Fashion bags | Mont Blanc Replica bags

353 Un total de once comunidades autnomas estn este jueves en alerta naranja Christmas gift ugg tall boots (riesgo importante) por nevadas y bajan las temperaturas en toda Espa09a, segn la Agencia Estatal de Meteorologa (AEMET). En concreto, se Christmas gift ugg napoule sandal trata de Aragn, Cantabria, Castilla-La Mancha, Catalu09a, Christmas gift timberland classic boots Madrid, Navarra, Comunidad Valenciana, Galicia, Pas Vasco, Asturias y Murcia. La cota de nieve bajar a menos de 200 metros en el CantbricoLa Pennsula Ibrica est bajo dos borrascas y un anticicln que crearn un pasillo que permitir el paso de una corriente de aire muy fro, como la que est provocando un temporal de fro glaciar en Europa, aunque es esperan que el fro que suframos no sea tan intenso como en otros pases. An as, se espera que las bajas temperaturas se mantengan hasta el domingo. La cota de nieve baja en el Cantbrico a menos de 200 metros

354

The H4 replica watches took replica watches Harrison a massive 13 years to replica watches construct-but this was only the end of a lifetime's work. His genius was clear from the very beginning. Unfortunately many astronomers such as Nevil Maskelyne were convinced that a mechanical solution replica watches would not work and that only astronomy could solve the replica watches longitude problem. The fact that Harrison was from a working class family and had little replica watches formal education probably didn't help his prospects.Solving the longitude problem through horology meant designing a timepiece that could work accurately at sea. When you watch consider the rolling waves, changes in replica watches temperature and generally adverse replica watches conditions the dificulty of this task becomes apparent.The H1 was completed in 1735 and proved replica successful at sea. However the Board of Longitude demanded a full a transatlantic wholesale watch voyage. They gave Harrison a grant of 500 pounds with which he began work on the H2 watches.

355 Certainly watches are Replica Watches used to help people record rolex Watches time, but rolex watches nowadays its functions have enlarged. Replica watches are now tag heuer Watches not only objects that tag heuer watches can tell you what time it is, they are also a status symbol. You should not feel strange when you find someone wearing a watch on his wrist, but use the cell phone to tell time. In that situation, the watch is just showing its luxurious function cartier watches. It is normal and cartier watches perhaps also happens to you. .If asked that among the watches of various brands, which one can suit your taste? There is no doubt that most people will choose Rolex. Whichever social class you are in, it is naturally Rolex was known breitling Watches and cherished breitling watches for a long time. However, the elements do not usually enter the market alone, always come with the price tag up to the hand. For this reason, many people, especially men, their dreams of luxury Rolex watches are buried in omega Watches his heart omega watches. What should I do? Rolex watches are simply stunning worn by the rich and famous, right? No, this world is not the world's richest men, is the world of each. All are equal before the search of luxury and be men's watches respected. Within men's watches, the law, when consumers are in the market, women's watches they should women's watches receive the same treatment. This is the real reason why replica Rolex watches are ladies watches ladies watches more welcome than Rolex. Because in this world are not difficult to understand that the rich are much less than people with low income, you agree with me? You are forced to nod and say with certainty that is the reality. These low-income people do not have enough money to save every month. They can not afford such luxury Rolex watches