1 If the patient wants to end it, why force them to live? It's a decision between the patient, family and the doctor, if you ask me.

2 If a woman has the right to an abortion, why does she not have the right to take her own life? and if a woman can do it why cant a man?
 

3 Weren't there some important Supreme Court cases that said something quite the opposite, Gabe? It seems to me this might get challenged.

4 No, Alex. The most recent right to die case at the Supreme Court was Gonzales v. Oregon, in which Justice Kennedy led his crack team of judges (the Lefty's plus Justice O'Connor) in concluding that the Attorney General of the United States was not qualified to enforce the federal Controlled Substances Act against Oregon physicians prescribing drugs for assisted suicides.

5 So is abortion then a right to kill? Oh right, it isn't "a life" yet.

rwallis

Because it isn't "their body" that the fetus is in. It might be their seed, their hopes, their dreams, their responsibility, the love of their life, but its not "their body" so I guess they can butt out.

It's sickening, really, even from a scientific standpoint.

6 My father just died of liver cancer on the 30th of November. The pain and suffering were unbearable to witness. After seeing him choking on bile and feces pushed up from his intestine, through his stomach and out his mouth was amongst the most horrible thing I have ever witnessed and I am a veteran.

If a person wishes to skip that portion of a terminal illness by taking his or her own life, they have my full support.

Anyone who would question this has never held the hand of a dying cancer patient.

7 I'd love to learn more about using the Community Templates.

8 The next case before that was Washington v. Glucksberg, in which the Court determined that physician-assisted suicide is not protected by the Fourteenth Amendment privacy right.

However, neither Glucksberg, nor the Fourteenth Amendment, nor any other constitutional imposition, prevent states from finding voluntary, active euthanasia protected under their own constitutions.

9 The problem is, how to control this. When the government takes over healthcare, the government will be killing those deemed worthy of the "right to die". The best system for handling seriously near death patients is kind of like "don't ask, don't tell". Keep the government out of this. Keep it on the down low between the doctor, the patient, and the family.

10 As I was making the difficult decision to pull the plug on my father last summer, the man in the next bed - a cancer victim - wanted to die.

Best I could tell from being in the room for many days, the cancer had won and he had no prospect for a normal life.  The doctors gave him med's but it was easy to tell that he was in constant pain.  I am no expert, but he seemed okay mentally, except that he kept asking family and hospital staff to die.

One can make the decision to stop life support, as did my father through a living will, but one cannot use that power until you require life support.  This made my decision much easier, but the decision for the other family much harder.

I'm quite sure I do not support Dr. Kavorkian death drive-throughs, but the experience has changed my perspective somewhat.

11 Suggested reading on euthanasia.

I relied on it when explaining my own wishes to my family, should I ever need "extraordinary" or "heroic" measures: no thank you.

Still, there is quite a difference between passive and active euthanasia.

12 Anyone who would question this has never held the hand of a dying cancer patient.

I did, but I do not support assisted suicide. I think it's a very bad precedent and will inevitably lead to government assisted suicides of those whose "quality of life" is deemed insufficient.

My mom died of cancer after suffering for 5 months. She believed in the sanctity of human life and raised me to believe the same. Her life had value, even to the end when she was comatose, not just for us but for the staff caring for her.

Incidentally, she died in January 1993. I usually say that Clinton killed my mother. I'll be watching my dad closely next month. (Dark humor runs in our family.)

13 I don't see any reason to keep people from making this decision themselves. Problem is the one in pain isn't always the one in true control. Now it may be some greedy inept relative soon it will be a greedy inept Govt health care system.

14 Hmmmmm.

Time to be really afraid if you've got a doctor in your will.

15 You're welcome!

16

Healthy people have a right to die, no one would dispute that.  Some may disapprove of that right or the morality of it, but the right is there no less than the right to live.  Using the infirmity of the bed-ridden against them by denying them access to the tools to take their own life is quite disgusting.  It is the imposition of a moral view on the only group who is powerless to resist because of their ailing physical health.  It is discrimination in pure form, denying one group of people rights that are held by the general population and only because they are powerless to defend themselves.

I'm not even going to get into the murky area of decisions for incompetant people, obviously it is open to abuse, but for the mentally able, the right is theirs and no ones to take away.

17 Keep it on the down low between the doctor, the patient, and the family.

But with what I see as the  coming Nationalized Piece of Shit Health Care the doctor becomes the agent of the Government.

18 This is one of those issues that leaves me in a ball of confusion. The part of me that is in favor was with my grandmother when she passed. She was 99 and just wanted to die. After a few days of suffering she did. My grandfather also suffered with cancer for months.
The part of me that is oppossed to it asks who in the hell is going to make the decision. Do we really want doctors to make the decision? A family member may have an "incentive" to pull the plug. (Trust me, if you have ever had a family member die, "relatives" come out of the woodwork trying to get "their piece of the pie".) The patient isn't usually able to make that decision reasonably. The government. Hell no. Also what constitutes the "right to die"?
As for the suicide part, I had an immediate family member commit suicide. There is plenty of anger that occurs because of the act.
So, I am torn, and it is one of those issues that I really never want to have to make a decision on.

19 Healthy people have a right to die, no one would dispute that.

I'm pretty sure that people who attempt suicide, and fail, are subjected to force resuscitations by hospitals and are sometimes (often?) evaluated by the court to determine if they are competent.

20 "I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan"

Part of the Hippocratic Oath. Guess it's not so revered these days..

21 18 So, I am torn, and it is one of those issues that I really never want to have to make a decision on.

I hear you.

My husband I have talked about it on a number of occasions. He knows what I want and I know what he wants. But he also knows not to ever ask me to help him commit suicide.

My plan is to take up skydiving when we turn 80 (if we both make it that long) and do all of our jumps, daily, with one chute.

22 In other words, the elderly and ill are given less judicial protection than fucking murdering shitbags.

What a fucking country.

23

I'm pretty sure that people who attempt suicide, and fail, are subjected to force resuscitations by hospitals and are sometimes (often?) evaluated by the court to determine if they are competent.

A doctor has a certain duty to save life, if he is presented with a patient who is still alive or can be brought back to life, he will try.  That does not in any way invalidate the patients right to choose to die.  The patient may check themselves out of hospital and finish the job without legal interferance.

Attempts to declare someone incompetant on the sole basis that they wish to die is an abuse of authority.  By what right does anyone assume the power to demand another live against their will?

Are we seriously going to see an argument made that people have a right to life but no right to death?  I'd like to see the twisted logic behind the attempt.

24

This is a tough one - I would have been completly against this a few years ago. Than I watched my father-in-law suffer a horrendous drawn-out death cause by Multiple Myeloma (sp?) a painful bone cancer. Massive amounts of morphine did little to help the agony he was in - and the doctors flat out told us that they could not do anymore as "it would bring about his death" and they were not willing or legally able to go there, even though he and his entire family were begging God just to take him. They were amazed at the amounts of morphine he was taking in and still hanging on, and on. He was a young man at 62 with a strong heart that would not quit.

I just wanted to put the pillow over his head, but I didn't have the courage.

My husband and I also both know where we stand on our personal wishes and have the proper legal documents in place, but so did my father-in-law and those provisions didn't really help him at all - the doctors were really hand-cuffed.

There has to be a better way - but who draws the line? who makes the call?

25 "Attempts to declare someone incompetant on the sole basis that they wish to die is an abuse of authority."

You realize this is pretty much standard procedure for death row, right?

26

You realize this is pretty much standard procedure for death row, right?

I'm not overly familiar with death row politics, you'll have to tell me what you mean.

27

11 Suggested reading on euthanasia.

I've never seen that before.. thanks. As a Catholic, this issue, like the death penalty, pulls me in one direction then back in another. My parish priest has been working me on both issues in several conversations we have had ..... he always says, when you are uncertain what you should do, you should have faith that God will provide the right course. Whether that equates with the Holy See is another argument, but will the government or the courts provide the right course? I know I have no faith in that!

28 How long will it be before relatives who are emotionally tired of caring for old relations with lingering illnesses start bullying gramps into signing the papers?
 "This is draining our retirement fund Dad!"

How about a doctor worried about the budget for charity cases forging the signature?  'Right to die' has led to horrible abuses in the EU.

29

And then you could throw in this type of situation into the mix -

'Sunny' von Bulow dead after 28 years in coma http://http://tinyurl.com/5euqnl

30 ... read the article about Sunny. My first thought was to wonder if they were now going to charge Claus in her murder. He was acquitted of *attempted* murder...


...btw anyone know of a handy reference for AOS approved HTML formatting?

31

Gabriel,

While your wishes may have been safeguarded via your own health-care power of attorney, for those not so forward-thinking, state-law determines the outcome.  Generally, it is the physicians veruses the family in such cases--and the health-care provider's decision is usually controlling.

Typically, in a Quinlan-type case, where the family or patient is seeking termination (as this thread is discussing) the outcome will be more easily resolved because the physicians and patient agree as to the efficacy of further treatment. See Amir Halevy, M.D., Medical Futility, Patient Autonomy, and Professional Integrity: Finding the Appropriate Balance, 3, available at http://works.bepress.com/amir_halevy/1.

In Texas, and in most states, the problem is not with assisted suicide--the health-care provider can determine that any further treatment would be "futile" and can then remove life-support treatment--the issue is actively assisting in furthering their deaths--in most cases, one can request that the hospital remove all life-support, except pain-treatment, and the same outcome would be achieved.

32 Setting religious arguments aside, allowing euthanasia creates a plethora of policy issues.

Patients feeling pressure from children and others to end their lives possibly years early to save on medical expenses, patients who want to avoid being a "burden" offing themselves, and, of course, the slippery slope of choosing who gets to off themselves and for what reasons.

I see the libertarian angle here, and I know something about the wrenching pain of the terminally ill from experience, but the slope is simply too slippery to crack open the door on this one.

33

This has absolutely nothing to do with any asserted "right to die."

This is entirely about the assertion of a right to kill -- the right to kill another person, or the right to kill yourself and a related right to provide assistance and thereby participate in another person killing himself.  And never, in the entire history of Anglo-American jurisprudence, has it been claimed that one has a right to kill for "medical" reasons, until the present utilitarian time.

People have been dying terrible, horrible deaths since the beginning of history.  Indeed, worse and more painful deaths that we have today in this age of morphine.  And never has it been asserted that killing such person is a right.  But now we live in a culture of death, and in an age of societal suicide.

34

Freedom is a curious thing.  We can all agree people should have the right to live where they wish, to speak what they feel or to practice a religion of their choice.  But when it is something serious like wanting to take your own life, suddenly freedom isn't quite so important.  The individual is now the property of the collective, refused permission to carry out their own will.

People face pressure from their families all the time on matters trivial and important, they have to make hard choices all their life in order to be successful.  But this one choice, to die, suddenly renders those capable people mere idiots, unfit to make up their own mind for their own reason.

35 While I understand the wishes of families to keep loved members from suffering, once the government enters into the elimination of citizens - for any reason - there is the potential for trouble.

Check out the arguments at:

http://www.euthanasia.com

http://www.notdeadyet.org

The disabled fear that a society that is cutting back on spending for health services will pressure them to volunteer for assisted death.  Think that impossible?  It's already happening in England and parts of the EU.

36 The socons have one big thing right:

It's a culture of death out there.

37

I worked in hospice for years. The amazingly experienced hospice nurses generally told me that people do not have to die in pain, though many doctors are ignorant of pain control and palliative instead of curative treatment. The hospice nurses I knew believed that assisted suicide would not be an issue if more doctors kept up on advances in pain control.

Suicide may be a personal choice, but involving healthcare workers in the act creates a moral dilemma for those who are supposed to heal.

38 37 - I agree with you regarding pain management. It was poor 12 yrs ago when my mom had an accident and became disabled. She struggled and suffered for 3 years before ending her pain herself. She told no one of her decision as she knew we would do all we could to prevent it. We struggled mightily with coming to terms with it, but it was her life and her choice. Its ultimately between her and God whom she believed in.

Government involvement makes me nervous for where it could lead. If individuals want to do it on their own, its up to them.

39 If I want to die, I will make arrangements to die. But I will take care of that without my doctor. My doctor should be under no confusion as to her role. I hire her to heal, not to kill. For her to assume the role of a hitman creates a conflict of interest. I've seen too many doctors who allow their own agenda to influence their decisions regarding patient care to trust them to look after my interests. Remember that open heart surgery costs big bucks, and poison is cheap. Not to mention that hospitals will soon be chronically short of space, and health decisions will impact society and can't be left to one's own personal wishes anymore (if the obamanauts are to be believed)

I know a lot of people who say, "I wouldn't want to die like that!" and are very vague about what constitutes "like that" I know elderly people who fall into the "like that" category who cling to life for their own purposes. They are not comfortable with Depends and personal hygiene assistance and all the other disadvantages of being old and helpless, but if you ask if they want to die right here and right now, they say no, emphatically. Some young people who think that diapers are icky might possibly change their viewpoint at the moment of truth.

40 I'm amazed at how many people are willing to let the state decide the worth of their lives.  And then act on it.

God help you if you get a serious (i.e very expensive to treat) condition in a nationalized health care system.  You just might become too expensive to "invest" in.

41 Do homos usually choose Death by Ru Ru?

42

I'll never endorse allowing the State to say when enough is enough.  I do not endorse allowing doctors to decide that, either.  But when the patient himself says "I've had enough" then I do endorse allowing that person a means of swiftly ending his own suffering.  For a doctor to honor a request for a lethal pill is not the same as deciding to put a patient down.  I've seen slow death often enough, by people suffering from the truly hopeless and incurable, to see that there's nothing noble and life-respecting about preventing them from having a means of painlessly ending their own tortured existence.  Those of us who still have a sound body forget that most readily available means of suicide are either difficult to carry out when your body is broken, or require planning well in advance.  Not everyone has the foresight to hoard sleeping pills just-in-case.  As long as the decision is made by the person who's going to die, I really don't see where principle comes into play other than as a purely religious consideration.  In any case, I hope my fellow right wingers don't put a lot of effort into fighting this.  It'll be one more nail in our movement's coffin - a gross failure to pick the right battles.

43

The comments on here seem to have drifted far from the statements made by the judge. Nowhere in those comments did he reflect that this was anything other than a decision made by the PATIENT. I saw nothing that would indicate that this decision could be made by the children, doctors, or the State.

44

6. Anyone who would question this has never held the hand of a dying cancer patient.

When I was in 2nd grade I watched my best friend die of a rare cancer (he was only like the 4th recorded case ever, and the first in a child).  The cancer itself, the chemo, and other treatments made him look like a Holocaust survivor and smell like death.  There were times he was so weak I had to help him move when he wanted to.  He trooped on till he dropped and never lost hope, despite his pain.  My take death is a little different than yours, so don't presume to dole out opinons.

I can see where allowing suicide would be meriful for some, like those listed in this thread where the person wanted to die.  However, given humanity's long, sorid record of just offing inconvienent groups "for their own good" or to "alleviate their suffering" despite what the target may think, I can't really bring myself to support allowing it to start again.  We already had this shit with the eugenics programs here in the early 1900's.  Just go back and read some of the stuff that came out to defend it from the time.  Some of them suffered and wanted to die, therefore it was okay to euthanize all of them.  Others that disabled people were subhuman resource-drains.  Killing them was for the disableds' (mentally feeble or no) own good, and just happened to benifit society on a cost-benifit-basis.   That 'mercy' got us the Nazis and their death-camps.  We probably won't see anything concentrated on that scale again just because of visceral reaction, but I can guarantee instead of one big gas chamber killing a lot of people once a week, it'll turn into one or two a day in a given hospital.  No biggie, especially with the upcomming National Heathcare overseeing it, right?

45 that one part of my little rant should read *My take on death

46 Vic, the problem is the usually bunk slippery slope argument.  Once you legally and morally justify it for the patient's decision, then it's a small step down the road to the doctor deciding it, then the state.  See my previous comment about our own eugenics program before WWII.

47 43 - That's just what I was thinking.  How did individual rights get transformed into the state deciding to kill people.

48

This case is bullshit. This whole topic is bullshit.

There are countless ways a person can commit suicide and not "need" a physician.

This is about sacking up, putting a gun in your mouth, and pulling the trigger. And then have the brass to go before God. These pussies want a doctor's note when they go before God. "The US government said it was okay". "My doctor said it was okay and signed off". These fucking pussies rely on the government for everything else in life why not determining when to snuff you out? This topic is all about pussies not wanting to take responsibility for thier decisions. Your loved one too sick to pull the trigger themselves? Bet their not too sick to swallow a potassium cyanide pill. Afraid you'll be found out if you can't keep your mouth shut? Or not having big {{mommy}} government's permission?

Too many opportunities for abuse once the government decides to start culling the herd. Hitler saved more money for war by "cleaning out" all the mentally ill and diabled person in Germany.

49 :O)

PAS is back again.

50

the problem is the usually bunk slippery slope

 

That argument can be easily remedied with the correct wording in legislation. This is where the problem comes in. Just like congress, most State legislators do not wish to go out on a limb and address the issue. That places the issue in the hands of the courts which is what I think is bullshit.

 

We let a (normally) unelected judge make life and death decisions in cases like this and the actual will of the people is never heard.  All that does is create controversy and acrimony. If the spineless legislators are unwilling to address the issue then put it up on the ballot as a referendum.

 

In the meantime the judge has NOT ruled on anything other than the patient’s decision. A sure way to open the door for more slippery slope is to keep it out of the legislature and bring it back to the courts.

51 "People have been dying terrible, horrible deaths since the beginning of history. Indeed, worse and more painful deaths that we have today in this age of morphine."

And you believe this is a good thing?

I'm not going to argue that dying painlessly is a Constitutional right. But, as a matter of *policy*, I think it would be good if every state (or, at least, one state) allowed the sale of Kevorkian-style devices. If Tim McVeigh got the luxury of a double injection (knock-out drug first, heart-stopping drug a minute later), then why can't I, if (for whatever reason) I'd want to?

52 The emphasis should be on providing comfort to those who are suffering and dying. On developing better methods of easing pain and suffering.

Suffering is terrible; but it cannot justify conferring the right to kill. Not because one particular mercy killing in itself is so evil, but because once that door is open, thousands will be routinely killed out of expedience, and without their permission.

We have ample evidence that 'right to die' leads inevitably to doctors deciding who lives and who dies rather arbitrarily and without oversight.

If you don't think a doctor can be so lazy that they will routinely justify killing rather than treating someone, you haven't been paying attention. I read an article years ago (can't find it now) about how doctors admitted that they euthanize disabled babies in Europe without the parents' consent or even knowledge.

Perhaps in my final agonizing moments I would rather this quiet relentless slaughter  be visited on our society if it allowed me to cease my own suffering. But I wouldn't be able to truthfully say that between mass murder and my pain, that my pain was the greater evil.

53 Whew!  Glad that's clarified.  I feel so much better that it's only going to be an individual's right.

I have full confidence it will stay that way.  Especially with universal health care, hope and change, and free bunnies for everyone on the way. 

You're right.  It does feel good to close your eyes, cover your ears, and repeat, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah........

54 "This is about sacking up, putting a gun in your mouth, and pulling the trigger."

I'm guessing that that's still kinda extremely painful, at least for a few seconds; why would you wish to inflict that upon me? (Not to mention that you have to know the best shot direction, that handguns aren't always easy to get, etc.)

"Bet they're not too sick to swallow a potassium cyanide pill."

So are you in favor of making those available OTC?

55

Vic, I was under the impression that in 35 states it was in legislation that assisted suicide was expressly illegal, including Montana.  This decision overturned that by allowing this gentleman to see assistance in the form of perscriptions to kill him.

Thus the wording "The patient's right to die with dignity includes protection of the patient's physician from liability under the state's homicide statutes".  This would not have to be defined if there wasn't some law already covering the issue.

So what's to stop a 'concerned citizen' with 'damages' down the road from having a judge overturn your proposed tightly worded bill?  I can't think of a scenario that would bring it about; but then again the courts hear and decide on some really dumb cases.

56

We have ample evidence that 'right to die' leads inevitably to doctors deciding who lives and who dies rather arbitrarily and without oversight

 

We do??? I haven’t seen any. Perhaps you will provide a link to some of this evidence.

57

"So are you in favor of making those available OTC? "

Stumbo,

You bet. While I think suffering and the circumstances surrounding it are sad, I do not believe the individual should give (forfiet) the decisions for his/her wellbeing to the state. Pragmatically speaking, it is impossible for the state to keep a mentally functioning and motivated person from killing themself. Sure some folks are physically unable to pull a trigger but could kill themselves in other ways. I am in no way in favor of suicide but understand why someone would want to end thier suffering. Just keep the f-in government out of it and don't institutionalize it.

58 OK, great. We agree, then.

59

Vic, I was under the impression that in 35 states it was in legislation that assisted suicide was expressly illegal, including Montana

 

I didn’t see anything in the article that said there was a specific law against it. All they stated was that the judge said their State Constitution had it as some kind of a “right”.  The article doesn’t give very much detail and is typical of AP, meaning that most likely it is so slanted that you can’t believe anything in it.

 

If there is indeed a Montana law forbidding it, and the judge has overturned that law based on more penumbras and emanations then the Montana Supreme Court will most likely overturn the judge. I don’t see most State courts out West going for this kind of judicial activism, other than perhaps CA, OR, and  WA.

60 Oh, and:

"Pragmatically speaking, it is impossible for the state to keep a mentally functioning and motivated person from killing themself."

Yes -- like jumping off a building, thus endangering those below, and forcing someone else to clean up the mess. See

http://ash.notearthday.org/conibear.html

(I had actually shared an office with this guy for a few years, though not at the time he did it.)

61
How convenient, the re-education camps are are being built here in MT.

62

My father was semi-vegetative for two years.  Finally his feeding tube clogged. 

We were allowed to (and did) let him starve to death, but couldn't get a doctor to deliver a megadose of something to ease the transition.

That's just fucked.

63 No, what's fucked is when someone (maybe you) doesn't get to make that decision. 

Apparently Vic has never heard of the Netherlands.

64 "The alarming statistics of the Remmelink Report indicate that in thousands of cases decisions that might or were intended to end a fully competent patient's life were made without consulting the patient.

Over 50% of Dutch physicians admitted to practicing euthanasia, most often on cancer patients. Only 60% kept written records of their euthanasia practice and only 29% filled out death certificates honestly in euthanasia cases.

In 1996 a second report on euthanasia in Holland (for 1995) was published. In the interim the number of cases where a doctor had made a decision with the intention to hasten death without the patients express request had risen from 15% to almost 20% of the total annual mortality rate of the Netherlands. At the same time, the number of cases of euthanasia, using the narrow Dutch definition, rose from 2,300 to over 3000, a 30% increase in just 5 years."

"....a study published in 1997 in the Lancet determined that in 1995, about 8 percent of all infants who died in the Netherlands--some 80 babies--were euthanized by doctors, and not all with parental consent; this figure was reproduced in a subsequent study covering the year 2001.)"

The view of the American Medical Association:
The AMA has watched, with great interest, doctor-assisted suicide in The Netherlands expand to include euthanasia even without a patient's knowledge or consent. Doctors in The Netherlands often resort to euthanasia when it appears that their efforts to cure the patient have been unsuccessful. The AMA does not want to see a repeat of this situation in America. Holland has shown that once the doctor has accepted the fact that he can end life, no amount of rules or regulations will protect the public.

65

Apparently Vic has never heard of the Netherlands.

 

What goes on in the Netherlands has NOTHING to do with Montana.

66 Once government learns whacking sick people is OK, they'll be handing out death pills for free. Get well pills will cost the sick money.

Aw, your're full of shite torabora!...people say.

I point you towards the death tax. That tax is for practice.

67 As a physician, I'm afraid that you all in favor of this are going to have to get all drugs legalized.  I'm sure there are more than a few of my colleagues that'll give lethal meds at the request of the patient and/or family (and/or some butthole bureaucrat) (and it's already happening every day in ICU's across the country)but you can leave me the hell out of it.  As it stands right now, you all need our (physicians) involvement so that the drugs can be prescribed and possibly given.  I recognize that adequate pain control is still a problem in our society but tell that to MD's that have been prosecuted by state medical boards for "overprescribing".  I agree with Turtle on this one.  You wanna off yourself or your loved one?  Man up and do the deed.  You want lethal drugs?  Petition your legislator for the right to procure and give said drug.  But like I said, leave me out of it.  The step from this to Dachau is just a little too short for me.

68 But, again -- what if it's restricted to cases where a sound-minded patient demands it (and otherwise, it would be classified as murder, or at least manslaughter)? I bet that under such a law, doctors would make damn sure to only euthanize people who really want it (and who sign consent forms in triplicate, pass the standard sanity checks in front of multiple witnesses, etc.)

I don't think anyone here is arguing that doctors should be able to end life as they see fit. I'm arguing that they should be able (if they are willing to) to assist people who wish to end their lives to do so with as little discomfort as possible.

69 lauraw pretty much got it.
Vic needs to read the run-up to the current euthanasia situation in the Netherlands. It was all about "the patient's right" and then it was "patients right's + doctor's decision", then it became how the doctor feels about the patient's quality of life.

There is a very steep slippery slope there and anyone not concerned will be in for a nasty shock as they get older. At present, doctors in the Netherlands often base their decisions on whether or not euthanize a patient on how said doctor views the "quality of life" of the patient. And apparently a lot of doctors over there have an elevated view of what constitutes a "quality life".

70

My position is the patient should be allowed to make this decision and a doctor allowed to assist if he does not object. I would say there will be plenty of Kavorkians around who would be willing just as there will be many who will not.  The legislation should be crafted to be VERY specific as to keep the government, including the courts, as well as the insurance companies, relatives, and others out of the process.

 

The only thing I am on the fence about is cases where the patient has left no living will and is in a permanent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. That is a dilemma that I would hate to be caught up in.  

71 And by the way, my Dad took himself out via the patient-controlled morphine drip method when his bone cancer got too bad. He was doing 3/4 gram/hour at the end. His decision; not some fu**ing bureaucrat or physician.

72

Vic needs to read the run-up to the current euthanasia situation in the Netherlands.

 

Se my post number 65. In addition, I would not believe in “study” on this issue commissioned by the AMA. The AMA has been known in the past to put out some real ax grinding BS for stuff they wanted. In short, they are just like any other special interest group commissioning “studies”.

73

What a can of worms. As long as Medicare pays big bucks for certain treatments, hospitals will opt for the big, expensive procedure.  A liver transplant is a $350,000- $400,000 procedure.  My relatives in the medical field told me NOT to sign an organ donor card because my heart liver and kidneys alone net a million dollars in transplant fees for the hospital. Once the feds cut reiumbursements it will be a whole new ballgame.

And, there is some discussion of who owns your organs! There is talk in the U.S. about requiring people to carry a card specifying that they don't wish to donate, making the default position that you don't own your organs, the state does. 

Another volatile issue: who gets the liver vs. who continues to wait and may die waiting? There are cases where indigent people got liver after liver while  taxpayers got none. Why? Because their Measurement of Endstage Liver Disease (MELD) score was higher because....they drank/took drugs post op. MELD scores, in a recent study, have somewhat equalized the rate of liver transplantation between the races...but not the sexes. Studies show that blacks still have higher mortality rates post op than whites do, and people who live in the Southeast have a better chance of getting a liver than people anywhere else. Once MELD becomes politicized (and if the feds get involved it inevitably will) to guarantee equality of outcome/quotas, it's going to get very very ugly. 

74

What goes on in the Netherlands has NOTHING to do with Montana.

Posted by: Vic at December 07, 2008 10:16 AM (q8aAJ)

How about Oregon?

Lung cancer patient, Barbara Wagner, was recently notified that her oncologist-prescribed medication that would slow the growth of cancer would not be covered by the Oregon Health Plan; the plan, however, she was informed, would cover doctor-assisted suicide should she wish to kill herself.

I support the right to die, but I'd be totally against it if there was state run healthcare, because of reasons just like this.

75

One last post on this issue before I abandon this thread because I think the real arguments against allowing people to commit suicide are all based on religion and you can’t argue religion in a rational manner.

 

I am in favor of doing what the State legislators approve in either case on this issue. If the judge in this case overruled a law passed by the State legislature and he had no grounds, or specious grounds, then the judge was wrong.

 

If he was wrong, he should be impeached and taken off the bench.

76 See I want to die sleeping, like gramps, not screaming like the passengers in his car....

77

This is political theater.  Doctors want the right to kill people.  People already have the ability to kill themselves, and the right to gather the tools.

Nobody decides they want to die, and says "it is too inconvenient, I want hired help to kill me."  Dying is a big enough deal that laziness isn't the driving issue.

If you want to kill yourself, you can buy Tyenol over the counter.  Take twenty four 500 mg pills, wash it down with lots of liquor (might as well go top shelf), and take a nap.  Painless (you don't even have to deal with the hang-over).

If liquor isn't you style, you can buy a large tank of helium (or nitrogen), and open it in an enclosed space (a car, or a bathroom).  Because the helium displaces the carbon dioxide, you won't even have the sensation of suffocating - you'll just go to sleep.  This is dangerous for whoever comes to clean up, because they'll need to air the area out first.

The only people who this isn't an option for - people so sick they can't use their arms.

And doctors can advise people about this.  It is 1st amendment right to speech, to discuss the biological considerations.

Granted, you can't do this in a hospital, so you need to refuse medical care, get somebody to take you to a hotel room, and die there.  This is the crux of the fight - power for doctors.  They don't want citizens to be able to make and execute their decision.  The doctors want the power to kill, and they want Medicare and Medicaid to pay for it.

 

78 Multiple Godwin's Law violations. Suddenly my autonomous right to determine my life and death equals Hitler's genocide. What crap.

Why do slippery slopes always slope away from my freedom?

When my time comes, God please spare me from the clutches pro-life, pro-misery, anti-slippery slopers.

79 WOW, this is all so heavy, but I can say that if Biden ever becomes president I'm outta here!

80

If you want to kill yourself, you can buy Tyenol over the counter.  Take twenty four 500 mg pills, wash it down with lots of liquor (might as well go top shelf), and take a nap.  Painless (you don't even have to deal with the hang-over).

Perhaps you know better, but I've seen people try to do this with Tyenol and lots of other drugs and wind up in a world of pain for days afterward.  The gaspipe sounds better.  As for me, a .357 120 gr hydrashock hollow point through the mouth seperating the brainstem will turn the lights out every time.

 

81 Yes this isn't about a "right to die" since the judge didn't overturn the state's suicide laws.  This is about a so-called "right to die with dignity" which, as others have pointed out, is very different.  It is, essentially, the alleged right to have doctors kill you and have insurance companies/the state pay for it.  I am a libertarian by nature and on the former question I am much more libertarian/federalist on the issue, i.e., if people want to kill themselves they should be allowed to do it, and if crazy Oregonians want to allow their state to make it legal, then that's their federalist right to do so.  On the latter question we who are adamant fiscal conservatives should take a very strong stand against it, for the same reason we fiscal conservatives fight every other government boondoggle: it deprives people of liberty and it creates a self-serving impulse for the state to aggrandize itself. 

82 FTA:  Under the ruling, the court will not go behind doctors' decisions about which patients are "competent" and "terminally ill" and thus able to choose death. The state is expected to appeal.

Can you say ''License to kill''. There, I knew you could.

83 I agree that people have a right to take their own lives. I also think more effort MUST be made to develop better treatments for suffering. Where you and I differ is on what would be the greater evil. I think that allowing physicians an official role as enders of lives is a terrible misstep.

You guys never really address the concerns of people like me, who believe that such power would be abused as a matter of course. "We'll just regulate it," you say, even though these doctors admit that they violate the letter and spirit of the law repeatedly.

So you just dismiss out of hand a decade or so of empirical evidence that doctors admit they use 'right to die' laws as personal amnesty against murder charges? That they abuse this legal protection and kill people without even consulting them? Been happening in Belgium, too, BTW.

You just say, "well those surveys don't apply to us," and move on, eh.

OK guys. I thought I was bringing up a good point, and was hoping for some discussion, but I guess you got me with that devastating 'Holland is not Montana' argument.

There's really no getting around that one. The World Atlas, she do not lie.

84

Multiple Godwin's Law violations. Suddenly my autonomous right to determine my life and death equals Hitler's genocide. What crap.

Why do slippery slopes always slope away from my freedom?

When my time comes, God please spare me from the clutches pro-life, pro-misery, anti-slippery slopers.

No one is stopping you from ending your life except you wanting permission from the government and someone else to pay for it. Own your death if you so want it and off yourself when the time comes in a manner of your choosing. So please, don't blame pro-lifers.

 

Stumbo,

You don't need a prescription to purchase potassium cyanide.

http://tinyurl.com/5hk5go

http://tinyurl.com/69aqx4

 

85 I don't care for the right to die laws, it's ghastly and evil and what's more a sign of the culture we live in where hardship and pain are the worst possible things a person can face. Yet the states have the right to make this kind of decision and it should be up to them, wrong or right.

86

See here is the problem with the whole 'right to die with dignity' argument in the current age.  Boston is contemplating banning tobacco bars.  These are establishments that specifically cater to smokers.  You don't go in there unless you want to be subjected to second-hand smoke.  But apparently that is not permissible to the nanny-state do-gooders.  Here is what Chief Nanny had to say about it:

"Regulations based on data are not done just to kind of hassle people," he said. "For a product like tobacco ... even if someone was doing it voluntarily, there is no safe exposure level."

Contemplate that quote.  And then realize that it's going to be these people, not a bunch of libertarians, who will be in charge of nationalized health care once it finally does arrive.  We will have liberal nannies using 'regulations based on data' saying it's ok to off people because the cost-benefit analysis just didn't work out.  THAT'S the problem with demanding that euthanasia become a medically appropriate procedure.  Want to kill yourself?  Okay, find the tallest building and jump off.  I won't stand in your way.  But don't demand that a doctor do it for you, because in the context of nationalized health care, that is a danger to us all.

87 Turtle:

Yeah, I know -- but it's still a hassle; you have to lie and cheat in order to get it. (Incidentally, the article mentions the guy I referred to in #60.) I'd like to have the ability to purchase it outright (perhaps with a mandatory, but not-too-lengthy, waiting period).

The "the online discussion group (which The Chronicle is not identifying)" is alt.suicide.holiday, often abbreviated as "ASH."

88 Two more comments about that article:

(1) "... after she cleaned her apartment and fed her kittens..." -- what kind of scumball abandons her dependents like that (be they human or not)?

(2) "... the individuals used anonymous screen names, and the group has refused to disclose their true identities." -- how on earth could "the group" disclose, or even be aware of, their true identities? (If those identities were revealed in earlier posts, anyone could find them as easily as "the group" could. "The group" is not an organization; it's just a frigging bulletin board, owned by nobody in particular.)

89

I have to go with the slippery slope side here, myself.  I am not talking out of my ass on this subject, I was the primary caretaker for my Grandma for over 3 years.  She was a sweet old lady, and the first couple of years were fine, but she got senile, had chronic heart problems, couldn't stand or walk without help, couldn't control her bowels, constant pain from arthritis, etc; After she turned 97 she started getting fluid in her lungs and had to be hospitalized for 10 days.  The got the fluid out but then told me there was nothing else they could do for her and recommended hospice care.  The next couple of months were tough.  We had her on oxygen, and she stopped eating, but continued to drink fluids.  She didn't know who I was at times.  Still, I thought then and think now that it wasn't my call to end her life. 

Now, none of the above makes me an expert on anything, but I shared that with you to show I do understand what some of you have gone through or have seen.  That said, I think assisted suicide or a so called "right to die" is a very bad idea, for all of the reasons already stated.  Once we have nationalized health care, and it is coming since a majority of the people seem to want it, the state is going to be looking for ways to save money.  How long will it be before a "right to die" becomes a "duty to die"?  And how long before that becomes a license to kill the sick, the old, the useless or just the inconvenient on the part of the state?  It's already happening in Europe and no one should think it can't happen here. 

90 Sorry Grandpa that you have to suffer for months in writhing pain and humiliation. but some guys on a message board convinced me it is necessary to prevent the Nazi's taking over.

Here is your purple heart.

BTW I believe in freedom of the individual*

*except when it comes to the important stuff.

91

What goes on in the Netherlands has NOTHING to do with Montana.

So nothing that happens outside of Montana ever effects Montana?  Nothing outside of the US ever influences or acts as a potential model for what might occur in the US?

Uh...okey dokey.  

92 One last post on this issue before I abandon this thread because I think the real arguments against allowing people to commit suicide are all based on religion and you can’t argue religion in a rational manner.

You don't have to be religious to see the danger here.  Or to have a high regard for life.  But its a nice looking strawman you have there.

93 The same people using the slippery slope argument here probably laugh at the left for using that same tactic against the Patriot Act and FISA.

94 Sorry Grandpa that you have to suffer for months in writhing pain and humiliation. but some guys on a message board convinced me it is necessary to prevent the Nazi's taking over.

When you see someone using this kind of argument against you... you know you've won.

95 BotP:

"How long will it be before a 'right to die' becomes a 'duty to die'?"

How long will it be before a "right to paint your bedroom black" becomes a "duty to paint your bedroom black"? The distinction between "right" and "duty" is as bright-line as they come.

"Once we have nationalized health care..."

Then, sure, all sorts of bad things might happen (on top of those happening already). The gov't might prohibit bungee-jumping, having more than one drink per day, eating cheeseburgers and french fries, and so forth. Why single out assisted (or semi-assisted, as in using a Kevorkian-type machine) suicide? It's a drop in a bucket.

By focusing on the slippery slope of people who are incapable of making their own life-and-death decisions, you're avoiding the topic of people who are perfectly capable of making such decisions for themselves. And you wish to deny them that choice... why, exactly?

96

Stumbo:

Since your words and tone seem reasonable, I'll answer.

1. Ok, right vs. duty.  Yes, the line might be bright and clear to you and me.  How clear will it be to an old, maybe senile, maybe in pain person being told by his doctors/inlaws/whoever "you know, you are taking up a lot of resources, medicines, and time, why not end it all?"  In the end, Stumbo, WHO is going to making these decisions?  You, your wife who may or may not like you for your money, your kids (ditto) your state-paid health provider trying to save money?

2.  Assisted suicide is NOT a drop in the bucket.  It's the beginning of state sponsored euthanaisa.  You think its unthinkable?  It's already happening in Holland.  Once it gets started, once we have the precedent that its OK for a sick person to kill himself, it WON'T STOP THERE.  From a sick person deciding "ok, its my time, pass the hemlock" it will go to let's stop feeding the comatose vegetative patient.  And then it will be, no sense wasting money and medicine for the incurably sick, just let that cancer take its course.  After that, well, why waste money on people with Aids, heart disease, etc; it will be a lot cheaper to just hand out suicide pills.  After all, surgery and chemotherapy are expensive potassium cyanide is not.

3.  I'm not denying you or anyone the right to commit suicide.  I'm trying to avoid a situation where other people decide my life is not worth living.  Get the difference?

97

Stumbo,

It's not that we wish to deny capable, i.e, non-incapacitated, people of the right to detetmine when they wish to die--and at this point, you can turn off the Harold and Maude soundtrack.  The point is that, "when you want to sing out, sing out," may, eventually be determined by an entrenched bureacracy and not the boisterous antics of an octogenerian with a penchant for suicidal, pasty twenty-somethings.  If the State's primary emperative regarding cost control is via supply--it's only option given a static cost--is to limit what it gives out, in other words, what health-care it provides, the only other way to keep within budget is to limit supply.

Which means that, regardless of the patient's decision, if he or she wants to live contrary to the State's cost-accounting tables, one better have as many lives as  a cat...or in your case, Cat Stevens.

 

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99 The ONLY argument I ever hear for this crap is someone's sad tale of a loved one suffering.. 

This is the only solution?  Bullshit.  This is simply advocacy for state sponsored euthanasia. 

If people were truly interested in easing suffering of terminally ill patients, they would be working towards more humane solutions.  You want legislation?  Then work to pass a law protecting physicians from prosecution for prescribing adequate pain relief measures. 

Nope, not good enough.  Lets kill 'em instead.  Fucking pathetic.  

100

6 (Portfolio) has it right. My mother-in-law died of leukemia three years ago after a year of remission, and I wouldn't wish that experience on my worst enemy. We sat in her room after the final delivery of morphine that took her beyond us, listening to her gasp, for hours, as her body failed. I think I'm a pretty steady guy, but that was singularly unnerving.

It's no one's business but mine when or how I go. 

101 100
It's no one's business but mine when or how I go.

I think that's the point. If you want to kill yourself, do it. Just don't expect your fellow citizens to condone it by allowing the medical profession to help you do it.

102 BotP (#96):

"Since your words and tone seem reasonable, I'll answer."

Um, thanks. Was this preamble necessary? Have I acquired a reputation for rudeness, esp. by AoSHQ standards?

1. "... an old, maybe senile, maybe in pain person being told by his doctors/inlaws/whoever [...] In the end, Stumbo, WHO is going to making these decisions?"

The in-laws can say whatever they want. The doctors' job would be to determine whether the person is sane enough to make the decision on his own -- certainly not to pressure him to opt for suicide. (Which I imagine they wouldn't, unless the system were set up to pressure *them*, and I'm guessing that both you and I are strongly against such a system.) And a person averse to suicide under *any* circumstances could, say, sign an irrevocable affidavit to that effect, just like one can sign a "do not resuscitate if blah-blah-blah" affidavit now.

On the other hand: suppose that I really enjoy life and all, and my net worth is $1 million, but I have a deadly (not even necessarily painful) disease, and a treatment costing $1 million would only prolong my life by a month. Might it not be rational on my part to decide to leave that $1 million to my relatives and/or friends, rather than waste it for the sake of that one extra month? Or would you you necessarily assume that I was pressured into making that decision?

2. To quote Ace, "once we begin taking slippery slope arguments seriously, who knows what sort of arguments we'll begin taking seriously in the future?" I could just as well argue (and I'm sure some people do) that an individual's right to own a handgun will inevitably lead to an individual's right to own a nuclear-armed tank. Do you buy that argument? If not, why not?

The bright line is: (a) the person is determined by a panel of impartial experts (doctors/judges/whoever) to be of sound mind and able to communicate his wishes in an unambiguous manner; and (b) the person unambiguously communicates his wish to be painlessly killed. Again, we could also have waiting periods, and so on; but the person's motivation for the decision is none of anybody else's business.

3. "I'm not denying you or anyone the right to commit suicide."

You are denying me the right to commit suicide in a painless and guaranteed way, without endangering others. (And I'm not arguing that this is somehow a Constitutional right; I'm arguing that this is a right that states -- or at least one state -- *ought* to grant me, on purely humanitarian grounds, should I for any reason choose to exercise it. With all the above disclaimers.)

LT (#97):

I haven't seen that movie, so the reference is lost on me. But you're positing a State powerful enough to decide who lives and who dies (not counting criminals convicted of capital offenses). If that ever comes to pass, the State will also be able to control every aspect of your life, throughout your life -- so whether or not you might be put out of your misery at age 70 should be the least of your concerns; Big Brother will be watching you (and ordering you around) from the day you're born.

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خلطات تقوية الأظافر ، وصفات تقوية الأظافر ، خلطة تقوية الأظافر ، وصفة تقوية الأظافر ~ خلطات للأظافر‏
وصفه تبييض الجسم ، وصفات تطييب رائحه الجسم ، وصفات تعطير رائحه الجسم ، خلطات تطيب رائحه الجسم
تسريحات ,تسريحات 2009 ,تسريحات روعه ,تسريحات جديده ,تسريحات ناعمه ,مكياج 2009 ,مكياج جديد ,مكياج روعه ,مكياج ناعم ,مكياج هادئ
صور مكياج الفنانه أميره محمد صور ميك اب الفنانه أميره محمد صور أميره محمد جديد صور مكياج الفنانه أميره محمد‏
تسريحات رفعات الشعر الطويل تسريحات للشعر الطويل تسريحات رفعات 2009
مكياج امل العوضي 2009 جديد ميك اب الفنانه أمل العوضي صور أمل العوضي 2009
ملف لخلطات تفتيح لون الجسم, خلطات لتبييض الجسم, خلطات لنعومة الجسم وتعطيره
وصفات لتبييض اليدين وصفات لتبييض مناطق الجسم وصفات تبييض للجسم وصفة لتبيض اليدين
تبيض الركب ، وصفات تبيض الركب ، خلطات تبيض الكوع ، وصفة تبيض الكوع وصفات تبيض الركبه والكوع
وصفة تنعيم الشعر ، خلطة تنعيم الشعر ، وصفة فرد الشعر ، خلطة فرد الشعر ، وصفات للشعر ، خلطات للشعر
مسكات للعرايس أقنعة للعروسات ماسك للوجه ماسك للعيون ماسك للشفاء ماسك لليدين والرجليين
خلطات منوعه لتبييض الاسنان ، تبييض الاسنان ، اسنان بيضاء ، خلطه تبييض ، خلطات للتبييض ، لتبييض
خلطات الدكتور عبد الباسط السيد ، وصفات خلطات الدكتور عبد الباسط السيد ، خلطات عبد الباسط السيد للجمال ، خلطات عبد الباسط السيد للشعر ، خلطات عبد الباسط السيد للبشره
خلطات الدكتور جابر القحطاني ، خلطات جابر القحطاني ، ملف خلطات جابر القحطاني ، خلطات جابر القحطاني للجمال ، خلطات الجمال ، خلطات جابر للجمال
خلطات تعطير الشعر للبنات ، خلطات تعطير شعرك ، خلطات تعطير شعر ، خلطات لشعر معطر
خلطات لجمال العيون خلطات للعيون خلطات طبيعيه
خلطات لزيادة الوزن وصفات لزيادة الوزن للتسمين
خلطه لتنعيم الشعر خلطات العناية بالشعر خلطات الحناء للشعر خلطات العناية
خلطات طبيعية للوجه ، خلطات للوجه ، خلطات تبييض للوجه ، خلطة للوجه
خلطات لتكبير العيون خلطات للعيون
خلطات لتبيض الركب والاكواع خلطات لازالة السواد خلطات طبعيه
خلطات لتنحيف السريع خلطات لشد الجسم خلطات تنحيف وشد
خلطات لتنفيخ الشفايف خلطات تنفيخ حلوه‏
صبغات شعر جديده صبغات شعر روعه قصات شعر 2009
خلطات لتنعيم اليد ، خلطات تنعيم ، خلطات حلوه ، خلطات مضمونه ، خلطات لليد
ميك أب جديد مكياج خفيف وبسيط مكياج ناعم ميك اب روعه
تسريحات 2010 تسريحات جديده تسريحات روعه تسريحات رائعه
مكياج الفنانه البحرينيه زينب العسكري 2009 مكياج زينب العسكري خليجي مكياج زينب العسكري للعرايس مكياج زينب العسكري لبناني
قصات جديدة , قصات 2009 , قصات وصبغات 2009 , صبغات 2009 , قصات وصبغات جديدة , قصات شعر 2009 , قصات شعر جديدة , صبغات شعر 2009
تسريحات للشعر الطويل تسريحات للشعر القصير تسريحه للشعر الطويل والقصير تسريحات 2009 للزواج
صور مكياج 2009صور مكياج بناتي صور مكياج خليجي صور مكياج
ميك آب احمد قبيسي مكياج احمد قبيسي مكياج 2009 احمد قبيسي
مكياج روعه , مكياج للحفلات , ميك آب للمناسبات , صور مكياج جديده , مكياج 2009 .‏
حواجب مرتبه دون نمص‎ , أروع الحواجب ,طريقة رسم الحواجب .
مجموعة ماكس فاكتور كريم اساس ماكس فاكتور روعه مسكره ماكس فاكتور
مكياج علا الفارس ميك اب علا الفارس صور مكياج المذيعه علا الفارس مكياج مذيعات
تسريحات كيرلي تسريحات ناعمه تسريحات 2009
خلطات لشفايف خلطات للمحافظه على الشفايف خلطات حلوه‏
صور مكياج لبناني هادي مكياجات روعه ميك اب لبناني ميك اب ناعم
صور تسريحات شعر - تساريح - قصات 2009‏
تسريحات حلوة , تسريحات للجامعة , تسريحات للبنوتات , تسريحات روعة , طريقة عمل الجدايل , جدايل حلوة , جدايل روعة , تسريحات للبنات , طرق عمل الجدايل الفرنسيه , طرق عمل جدايل عناقيد ذيل السمكه
تسريحات شعر- تسريحات مرفوعه - تسريحات ناعمه - تسريحات شع009 - تسريحات مناسبات
تسريحات رومانيه ، تسريحات شعر رومانيه ، تسريحات رومانيه للشعر الطويل ، تسريحات رومانيه 2010
تسريحات عرايس, تسريحات فخمه , تسريحات 2009 , تسريحات للشعر الطويل
صور مكياج الفنانه الهام فضاله ميك اب الممثله الكويتيه الهام فضاله صور مكياج ممثلات
تسريحات بناتيه تسريحات للزواج تسريحات 2009 صور تسريحات روعه‏
صور مكياج الخبيره حياة التميمي صور مكياج 2009
مكياج بثينة الرئيسي ، ميكاج الفنانه بثينة الرئيسي ، ميك اب بثينة الرئيسي ، صور بثينة الرئيسي
احدث مكياج 2009 مكياج غريب مكياج خطير مكياج جديد‏(
تبييض المؤخرة خلطة بياض المؤخرة‏(
صبغات للشعر صور احدث قصاات للشعر 2009 -2010 نصائح للشعر‏
كوشات 2010 كوشات بطراز صيني كوشات للزواج كوشه صيني
قصات ايمو تسريحات ايمو قصات بنات‏
وصفات تطويل الشعر ، خلطات تطويل الشعر ، وصفة تطويل الشعر ، خلطة تطويل الشعر ، تطويل الشعر ~ خلطات للشعر
حناء ، نقش حناء ، نقش حناء خليجي ، نقش حناء هندي ، نقش حناء إماراتي ، نقش حناء للعرايس
خلطات تبيض البشره ، خلطات تفتيح البشره ، خلطات للبشره ، وصفات تبيض البشره ، وصفات تفتيح البشره ، وصفات للبشره
أختاري أفضل مكياج من بين مكياج الفنانات !!!
مكياج جويل مكياج ساره مكياج روعه مكياج خبيرة التجميل جويل مكياج خبيرة التجميل ساره
قصات ، قصات شعر ، قصة شعر ، قصات 2010 ، قصات للشعر القصير ، قصات للشعر الطويل ، قصات 2010 للشعر القصير
تسريحات حليمه بولند صور قصات المذيعه حليمه بولند تسريحات وقصات 2009
تسريحة بايس هيتون . صور تسريحات كيوت . طريقه عمل تسريحة الفيونكه صورطريقه عمل تسريحه الفيونكه
مجلة كاملة لجمالك تجهيزات العروس, المكياج, تسريحات, منتجات العناية بالجسم, الاكسسورات والمجهورات, تسريحات انيقة, قصات شعر 2008, اناقة ومكياج, عناية بابشرة, اقنعة وجة, للبشرة جافة,للبشرة دهنية, للبشرة
تسريحة للمدرسة تساريح للمدرسة تسريحات للبنات
تسريحات لشعر الطويل تسريحات سهره تساريح شعر روعه
تسريحات عرايس 2009 تسريحات سهره 2010 خاص لعروس
حناء للعرايس ، نقش حناء للعرايس ، رسومات حناء للعرايس ، حناء 2010
تسريحات رائعة تسريحات لبنوتات تسريحات حلوة‏
صبغات شعر تسريحات شعر صبغات الوان لشعر تسريحات روعه لشعر
قصات شعر قصات للشعر الطويل قصات للشعر القصير قصات 2009 للشعر
قصات شعر للصبايات قصات جديده لشعر البنات‏
تسريحات سهره تسريحات الشعر المرفوع تسريحات سهرات ~ تسريحات شعر طويل
صور تسريحات شعر للأطفال تسريحات للمدارس تسريحات أطفال 2009
تسريحات للجامعه ، تسريحات للمدارس ، تسريحات بنات الجامعه ، تسريحة شعر للجامعه ، تسريحات شعر للجامعه
مكياج عيون , ميك آب عيون , صور مكياج عيون , صور أحلى مكياج عيون , جديد مكياج العيون ,
طريقة عمل مكياج عيون خفيف بثلاث الوان بالصور.
مكياج الاعلاميه حليمه بولند 2009 مكياج حليمه بولند خليجي 2009 مكياج حليمه بولند لبناني 2009
طرح اسبنش لفات طرح 2009 لفات طرح الاسبنش لفات طرح للمتحجبات
تسريحات تسريحات للبنوتات تسريحات للسهره للبنوتات تسريحات روعه تسريحات 2010 تسريحات للاطفال‏
وصفه لتطويل الشعر بسبوع وصفه جديده وصفه لشعر‏
تسريحات تسريحات روعه تسريحات جديده تسريحات رائعه تسريحات ناعمه تسريحات 2010‏
طريقة عمل تسريحات البنوتات بالصور , تسريحات بنوتات , خطوات تسريحات للبنوتات , تسريحات بالصور .
حنا خليجي حنا عربي حنا 2009‏
مكياج أحمد القبيسي مكياج روعه صور مكياج‏
خلطات لتسمين الوجه خلطات لتبيض الوجه خلطات للوجه خلطات حلوه خلطات رووعه‏
مكياج جديد ,مكياج 2010 ,مكياج روعه ,مكياج خبيره التجميل امنه الظاهري ,مكياج عرائس ,مكياج رائع ,مكياج جميل جدا
تسريحات طوني مندلق تسريحات للعروس جديدة تسريحات شعر العروس موضة 2009
صبغات شعر‏
احدث تسريحات ومكياج الفنانه الكويتيه مشاعل الزنكوي 2009 - 2010
تسريحات للمدارس تسريحات للجامعات تسريحات ناعمه تسريحات بسيطه تسريحات 2009
تسريحات جديده , تسريحات للحفلات ,تسريحات فخمه ,تسريحات 2009
صور تسريحات حليمه بولند روووعه
مكياج روعة , مكياج خيال , مكياج جنان , مكياج خطير , مكياج للبنات , مكياج للبنوتات , مكياج لمراة , مكياج للعرائس , مكياج انيق , مكياج راقي
انواع الزمام اشكال الزمام اشكال الزمام الروعة زمام 2009
صور قصات شعر, قصات جديده للشعر , أحدث القصات , قصات الشعر 2009 .
شرح طريقة تنعيم الشعر خطوه بخطوه بالصور , طريقة سشوار الشعر بالصور , طريقة استخدام مكواة السيراميك بالصور .
خلطات خاصه للعرايس ، خلطات للعروسه ، خلطات للعروسات ، خلطات للعروسة‏
تسريحات خياليه , تسريحات جديده , تسريحات للعروس , تسريحات للأفراح , تسريحات نعومه .
تسريحات رومانيه 2009 صور التسريحات الرومانيه تسريحات روعه 2009
قصات للشعر الطويل قصات للشعر القصير قصه فكتوريا قصات 2009 قصات 2009 للشعر
مكياج عيون , أحلى مكياج عيون , ميك آب عيون , ميكاج عيون خليجي ولبناني ,جديد مكياج العيون 2009

لعبة سلاحف النينجا TMNT 2 Battle Nexus تحميل لعبة سلاحف النينجا TMNT 2 Battle Nexus
لعبة من سيربح المليون ، تحميل لعبة من سيربح المليون ، العاب ذكاء وأسأله ، من سيربح المليون
لعبة ماريو ، تحميل لعبة Super Mario 64 1.2 ، تحميل لعبة ماريو
تحميل العاب psp ((مجانا)) وأيضا تستطيع تحميل العاب (pc-ps2-wii-xbox360)
العاب بنات العاب مكياج العاب ميك اب لعبة المكياج العاب بنات المكياج العاب بنات2009
لعبة ماتريكس تنزيل لعبة ماتريكس تحميل لعبة ماتريكس لعبة Matrix تحميل لعبة Matrix تنزيل لعبة Matrix
لعبة حروف وألوف بحجم 447 كيلو بايت بس روعة
لعبة الديكور المنزلي تحميل لعبة الديكور المنزلي لعبة home sweet home‏
لعبة لعبة سيمبسون تحميل لعبة Simpsons تنزيل لعبة Simpsons‏
لعبة كريزى تاكسى ، تحميل لعبة كريزى تاكسى ، العاب كريزى تاكسى ، كريزى تاكسى
لعبة Pet Pals Animal Doctor تحميل لعبة Pet Pals Animal Doctor للكمبيوتر
لعبة IGI 2 - Covert Strike تحميل لعبة IGI 2 - Covert Strike
لعبة بلياردو تحميل لعبة Billiard حمل بلياردو لعبة Billiard‏
لعبة light driver 2 تحميل لعبة light driver 2 للكمبيوتر
لعبة درايفر تحميل Driver 76 تنزيل لعبة Driver 76 تحميل لعبة درايفر سيارات
لعبة يوغي تحميل لعبة يوغي للكمبيوتر لعبة يوغي للكمبيوتر
لعبة علاء الدين تنزيل لعبة علا الدين تحميل لعبة علا الدين تنزيل علاء الدين
لعبة Miami Nights Singles In The City ، تحميل لعبة Miami Nights Singles In The City‏
لعبة سونيك تحميل لعبة Sonic Rivals 2 تنزيل لعبة سونيك لعبة Sonic Rivals 2
لعبة باب الحارة ، تحميل لعبة باب الحارة ، لعبة conter.strike ، تحميل لعبة conter.strike
لعبة دراغون بول تحميل لعبة Dragon Ball تنزيل لعبة دراغون بول لعبة Dragon Ball‏
تحميل لعبة spiderman 2 تنزيل لعبة الرجل العنكبوت لعبة spiderman 2 الرجل العنكبوت
لعبة بيبسي مان تحميل لعبة بيبسي مان لعبة بيبسي مان للبلاي ستيشن ، لعبة Pepsi Man ، تحمل لعبة Pepsi Man ، Pepsi Man
اكبر مكتبة العاب Pc 2009 , اكبر مكتبة العاب Pc للتحميل ، اكبر مكتبة العاب Pc 2009 لتحميل مباشر
لعبة وزنك ذهب ، وزنك ذهب ، تحميل لعبة وزنك ذهب ، العاب أسأله ، العاب ذكاء
لعبة توم وجيري تحميل لعبة توم وجيري لعبة Tom And Jerry تحميل لعبة Tom And Jerry
تنزيل لعبة Pro Evolution Soccer 5 تحميل لعبة Pro Evolution Soccer 5 للكمبيوتر
لعبة Real Football 2008 تحميل لعبة Real Football 2008 العاب كرة قدم
تحميل لعبة سبايدر مان 3 تنزيل لعبة Spiderman 3 تنزيل لعبة سبابدر مان 3
العاب كمبيوتر - لعبة Diner Dash 3 تحميل لعبة Diner Dash 3
Live for speed ، 2009 Live for speed الاصــدار x10 مع الكــراك ، العاب Live for speed ] الاصــدار x10 مع الكــراك 2009
لعبة روبن هود ، تحميل لعبة روبن هود ، لعبة Robin Hood ، تحميل لعبة Robin Hood ، Robin Hood ، روبن هود
Naruto Ninja Destiny لعبة Naruto Ninja Destiny تحميل لعبة Naruto Ninja Destiny
لعبة كابتن ماجد ، تحميل لعبة كابتن ماجد ، كابتن ماجد ، العاب كرة قدم ، لعبة كابتن ماجد للكمبيوتر
تحميل Claw لعبة روعه Claw ، حمل لعبه Claw
حصريا لعبه G.T.A San.Andreas 2009 ، لعبة G.T.A San.Andreas مضغوطه بحجم 3 ميجا فقط !! كامله على اكثر من سيرفر
لعبة Final Fantasy XII Revenant Wings تحميل لعبة Final Fantasy XII Revenant Wings للكمبيوتر
لعبة The Sims 2 Mansion Garden Stuff تحميل لعبة The Sims 2 Mansion Garden Stuff‏
تحميل العاب كمبيوتر تحميل البلاي ستيشن لعبة زينا تحميل لعبة زينا لعبة زينا للبلاي ستيشن
تحميل لعبة كراش سيارات تنزيل لعبة Crash سيارات لعبة Crash
لعبة Virtua Tennis 3 لعبة التنس للكمبيوتر تحميل لعبة Virtua Tennis 3
تنزيل لعبة Pocket Tanks 4 تنزيل لعبة الدبابات تحميل لعبة الدبابات‏
تحميل لعبة Naruto لعبة ناروتو تنزيل لعبة Naruto تحميل لعبة ناروتو
لعبة كونترا سترايك بورتابل ، تحميل لعبة كونترا سترايك بورتابل ، لعبة Portable Counter Strike 1.6
لعبة سبونج بوب تحميل لعبة سبونج بوب لعبة Spongebob تحميل لعبة Spongebob‏
لعبة Harry Potter تحميل لعبة هاري بوتر للكمبيوتر تنزيل لعبة Harry Potter‏
العاب مغارات لعبة علاء الدين ، لعبة Aladdin ، تحميل لعبة علاء الدين ، تحميل لعبة Aladdin
برنامج يجعل لعبة gta san andreas اون لاين
لعبة Crash تنزيل لعبة كراش تحميل لعبة Crash تحميل لعبة كراش
تنزيل لعبة البلوت تحميل لعبة البلوت لعبة البلوت
لعبة بيبسى مان تحميل لعبة بيبسى مان تنزيل لعبة بيبسى مان
تحميل لعبة رزدنت ايفل 5 ، تحميل Resident Evil 5 للكمبيوتر، لعبة رزدنت ايفل
لعبة دورا تنزيل لعبة دورا تحميل لعبة دورا تحميل لعبة Dora لعبة Dora تنزيل لعبة Dora
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