1 I can actually put together a good argument that today's generation of Afghan hillbilly's is less effective in their environment and with their tactics using the AK/AKM class weapons that have proliferated in Afghanistan after the Soviet invasion, then they were with the old bolt action rifles.  (Of course, the damn RPGs make up a lot of the ground.)

Gets back to the DMR discussion we were having before the Bombay atrocity.

2 Check out the big brain on Russ!

3 I have a brand new unfired Enfield Mk 4.  It looks like its rather well equipped to "reach out and touch someone" in terms of sight quality, barrel bedding, and trigger feel.  I think the Mk 4's were WWII vintage though and may have better sights than the earlier ones.  A dialed in Enfield in the hands of a  trained shooter, should be able to get good hits well beyond the range of a modern assault rifle.

4 Got to agree with you.  Unless they were wearing a special type of body armor (extremely heavy), a standard full-sized rifle bullet will cut through it like a hot knife thru butter.  BTW, I would not consider the SMLE 'obsolete', same for the venerable  '03 or  M1.....but  then, I date myself!

5 They're still bulky rifles, and not too great if one of your hands is otherwise occupied (like when they were rappelling into the hotel). Not the best choice for what they were facing, but they probably didn't have much of a choice.

6

"The best body armor in the world can't stop a "major" caliber round from a battle rifle like the .303 British, .30-06 Government, or 7.62x54 Russian when fired from short to moderate distances - at best it could be expected to slow down the bullet and minimize the hydraulic shock caused by the wound."

I believe the correct term is "hydrostatic shock".

7

Good post. 2 points:

 

AK-74 is not a .22, it's a 5.45mm x 39....which is damn close to .22 but it is, as I know you know, not a .22

Also- It's hydrostatic shock....

One last thing- You are 100% correct that a "battle rifle" round can't really be compared to an "assault rifle" round. Both lethal, but the .30 cal type rounds have much more energy (mass x velocity etc). There's a reason why our guys still have m-14's and the like available for some duty.

AtS

 

8

It appears (at least from this photographer's point of view) that the weapons weren't the problem, at all.  It was the police's refusal to use them:

http://tiny.cc/Cr6Pl

But what angered Mr D'Souza almost as much were the masses of armed police hiding in the area who simply refused to shoot back. "There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything," he said. "At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, 'Shoot them, they're sitting ducks!' but they just didn't shoot back."

9

Just a note.  EVERY picture I have seen show the terrorist with NON AK-47.  There was a picture today of captured guns and ammo in a chair and the stocks were not folding, but push in stocks.  All assault rifles are NOT AK-47.  To date I not seen a terrorist WITH an AK-47.  Note the best picture of the guy in the rail station?  That appears to be a smaller gun than an AK.

Some help here, someone round up the photo's and ID these guns.

Kemp

10

Bet a nickel they were using Ishapore Enfields (in fact, I thought I glimpsed one in a video clip), converted from .303 British to 7.62 NATO as described above.

Russ is absolutely right about centerfire battle rifle ammunitions and body armor. Most armor is intended to defeat pistol caliber rounds; one can get armor designed to defeat battle rifle rounds, but it is neither common nor cheap (nor light, I imagine). In terms of kinetic energy, from least to most it runs pistol/intermediate-power "assault rifle" (5.56x45, 7.62x39, 5.45x39, .30 Carbine)/full-power "battle rifle" (.303 British, 7.92 Mauser, .30-06, .308Win/7.62x51, 7.62x54R, 7.5 Swiss, etc.).

I'm thinking about getting an Ishfield myself...that, or a Swiss K31 (7.5 Swiss). Probably the latter. Both are straight-pull (makes it a little faster to cycle than a Mauser-style turnbolt) bolt-action rifles in calibers useful, provided the operator does his part, at the "rifleman's quarter mile" of 500+ yards. The tradeoffs are that the Enfield ammo is a little easier to get, and the Ishapore holds 10-12 rounds to the Schmidt-Rubin's 6. In the K31's favor are the quality of construction (one would easily pay north of $2,000 for the build quality that costs about $200 with a beat-up beech stock) and the fact that the bolt can be converted fairly easily for left-handed operation (there's a kit out there somewhere), without major surgery on the rifle. Me being a southpaw, that's a selling point.

11 Anyway, I think it's bad form to criticize the rifles carried by the Indian Transit Policemen in Mumbai.

Absolutely. They could have been armed with M41A pulse rifles and it wouldn't have changed things. You could be armed with the best weapon in the world, but if you don't actually fire the weapon, it's just a 9 pound stick.

Chalk me up as another Enfield Kool-aid drinker, by the way.

12

#5, I was specifically referring to the rifles carried by transit cops on the train platforms where the shooting rampages started.  I would expect that the anti-terrorist specialists who conducted the entries into the hotels were armed with H&K MP5s or something along that line.

#6 & #7.  Oops.  My bad.  You're both right.  The next round of Val-U-Rite is my treat.

Purple Avenger, the #4 Enfield had a heavier barrel, improved sights and a few other internal changes that made it easier to produce them during wartime.  The #4 Enfield is a better rifle than the old #1 Mk.3, but I've always preferred the "old school" look of my Australian "Lithgow" model to the #4.

13 I wonder how many of our police officers would have behaved differently.  Probably those who had served time in the marines or U.S. Army.  Police training in this country doesn't prepare cops for this kind of gun battle.  I imagine the training in India is woeful, indeed, compared to the training our cops get.  In this century I am afraid more of these incidents, rather than fewer, will be the norm.  Why blow yourself up in a crowd of people when you can go down in a blaze of glory shooting off that ak 47 and get those 72 virgins in paradise.  Police in will have to receive more military-like training and be properly equipped - such as the gendarmes in Italy.

14 Hmm... all you SMLE guys here, and I have been contemplating adding a Mosin-Nagant to my collection.  They are cheap as freekin dirt, and ammo is plentiful for it.

K

15 GarandFan at December 01, 2008 04:32 PM

I have an M1 as well, and I'm pretty sure it would go through most body armor at 75yds, and even if it didn't, the "dent" would still kill you.

16 Previously some Indian police were not issued with ammunition until a violent event was expected. I am not sure if they still do that but maybe that was the problem.

17

I write right but I'm fairly ambi.  I do shoot mostly left-handed though because of eye dominance.  Yesterday I was shooting my M&P right-handed and I kept accidentally dropping the mag because of where my finger wanted to sit outside of the guard.

Aren't Lee Enfields the guns they used in the Boer War?

18 Another thing to remember, the 1911 is a "WW1-era pistol", yet it's the preferred weapon of the FBI's HRT, LAPD SWAT and just about every US military spec ops unit.

19 Russ - I'm still pretty sure it is not great of CQC.

20 I can't remember where I read it, but it said the "smart" cops in India get themselves jobs working where they interact with the public at desks and can get their palms greased. It also said these cops fired their rifles 10 times in whatever form of "academy" they go to for their training. And that's it. No more shooting practice. The rifles were the least of the problem.

21 Aren't Lee Enfields the guns they used in the Boer War?

Close. Lee-Metfords were used during the Boer War. Enfields are descended from the LMs, and if memory serves, the .303 was originally a black powder cartridge when used in the LM. It was converted to smokeless powder after the Brits had problems fighting the Boers, who were generally armed with Mausers.

22

The Comish is right about the refusal to use lethal force. Having spent time in India I can attest to their lack of initiative, which is the mindset of for the majority of Indian cops.

Like most third world nations, India doesn’t encourage ‘creative thinking’ or a ‘take charge’ mentality amongst its military and paramilitary forces. Its more monkey see - monkey do with the ultimate goal being to play ‘pass the buck’ up the chain of command. Politicians in places like India know that successful coups usually start within the military and the best way to avoid them is to instill a culture of stupid and fear. It may keep the generals from taking over, but it also prevents the line troops from doing any original thinking.

Instead of the first troops on scene taking charge and having the training and freedom to engage the enemy without fear of reprisal by superiors this kind of incident is tailor made for an organized terrorist cell.

23 I think you'd need a level 4 vest to stop a .303 Enfield.  Not even a 3/3A would do it.

24 Kestrel, do you cycle the action with a 2x4? One of my proudest moments was firing 20 rounds (4 magazine loads) with an M38 tanker/artillery carbine, and only having to pick up the mallet once. :-)

25

Bet a nickel they were using Ishapore Enfields (in fact, I thought I glimpsed one in a video clip), converted from .303 British to 7.62 NATO as described above.

Maybe, but this article tells of an accidental shooting in a police station involving a .303 caliber rifle.

The Enfield was a very good rifle in it's day (I have two).  The .303 is a competant round, a bit less powerful than a .308 but still far more so than the typical AK/M-16 rounds.  However, it's inappropriate for police use- not that it matters if they won't use them when they most need to.

26 Perhaps it was better they wouldn't be armed AT ALL.

Did you see the NSG "Commandos" armed, mind you, with MP5's, firing into a house full of hostage above their heads like i've never seen, besides perhaps in the worst B-Movies? 

Now you can understand why it took them 40 hours to take out dozen 18 year old kids with AK's. Frightening.

27 One of my proudest moments was firing 20 rounds (4 magazine loads) with an M38 tanker/artillery carbine, and only having to pick up the mallet once. :-)

How much did you spend at the chiropractor's to re-set your shoulder blade???

28 About 6 years ago, one Arab Muslim armed with a scoped M1 Carbine was able to kill 10 Israeli soldiers(!)

It's more of a WWII weapon, but the point is our weapons are not THAT superior. It's no musket vs spear.

29 #16 may be on the right path, I've dealt with several non-Western police forces and distribution of ammunition is severely restricted.  In fact, possession of a weapon is more of symbol of authority then a cared for, provisioned, and trained weapon.  Might as well have a 9lbs stick with feathers.

30

14:

My first firearm was/is a M-N. I have fired it a few times, and I love it. Kicks like a mother-f&cker, but it would definitely put a hurt on any zombie or crackhead looking to do mischief to my family or property

31

Posted by: Kestrel¢¼ at December 01, 2008 04:49 PM (IiExB)

As to Mosins

Look here. there are Finnish Mosins that can be purchased without a FFL.

http://www.gunsnammo.com/

32

Oh goody, now I get to pontificate on which surplus military rifle an AoSHQ Moron should acquire.  I'll give it a shot.

  Currently, I've got an M1 Garand in .30-06, an Australian Lithgow-arsenal manufactured Enfield #1 Mk. 3 in .303 British, a Swiss Schmidt-Rubin K31 straight pull in 7.5x55, and a Mosin Nagant M38 carbine in 7.62x54.  The Mosin is a shorter version of the more common M91/30 rifle.

  I'd have to say that if I had to choose which one of these rifles I'd pick up to save my ass, I'd be torn between the K31 and the M1 Garand.  The Enfield is a good rifle, but mine is a little more used than the rest of my surplus rifles and the really cheap surplus ammo I've laid up for it has corrosive primers (meaning that you have to clean it right away after you shoot it to prevent corrosion).  The Mosin Nagant is a good light (by the standards we're talking about in this category) rifle that I can take a deer with, but the deer in our area haven't started shooting back YET.  The action on the Mosin Nagant is S-L-O-W compared to the Enfield, and it's prehistoric compared to the Garand or the Schmidt-Rubin.  The surplus ammo I've got for the Mosin is corrosive as well, so it's not a "use me every day & clean me on Sunday" rifle.

  The Garand is a damn fine rifle that is only limited by it's lack of a detachable magazine, but I've got a sweet spot for my K31.  The ammo isn't cheap compared to surplus Mosin Nagant ammo coming out of Bulgaria or Russia ($0.60 per shot versus $0.30 at current internet prices), but it's non-corrosive and loaded to damn near match specifications.  I can keep all my shots from the K31 within an inch & a half at 100 yards, and the straight pull action is surprisingly fast.  I can get a second shot off while my first empty casing is still in the air, and I'm working on being able to get off a shot while I've got TWO casing in the air. 

  Unfortunately, I cannot recommend that any of you buy a Swiss K31.  Any new 7.5x55 rifle owners means "less surplus ammo available for Russ", so I'm going to recommend that you go with the Garand or the Enfield.  What the hell, buy both of 'em, and a Mosin Nagant to boot.  Those Russian bitches are selling for about $100 each, and if you add a reproduction PU scope to it you can fantasize about being Vassily Zaitsev whacking Nazis in Stalingrad.  It's not as if any of you have 401k's left to put the money into, or bills for the kid's college tuition to save for, right?

33 I'm investing in my kids college education this Xmas, starting at 5 years old.  Grandpop and myself are going in on his first .22 plinker.  He will be the shit in pre-school and well on his way to that ROTC ride.

34 Eddiebear and Oldsmoblogger

Are you saying that the M-N's kick?  Well that won't bother me too much.  I can shoot my 7mm mag decent enough, and the "briskest" I have shot was my pa's Weatherby featherweight in .300 winmag.

I was mostly looking at it for a zombie gun.  I can get one and 500 rds of ammo for under 200 so I figured what the hell.

K

35 Excellent points, Ace. It seems this was much more a human weakness rather than one of weaponry. I confess to not thinking deeper about it when I read that article.

36 The gist of the article is right it is much more likely lack of training, orders or ammo was a fault for not stopping the terrorists at the train station than older style weapons.

Police in the US are now much more likely to take aggressive action early on in a conflict mostly due to lessons learned from Columbine, V-Tech. Essentially the bad guys keep killing until someone tries to stop them and the sooner the better.

37   To be perfectly frank, my current favorite shooter is a replica of the Winchester 1892 lever action in .357 Magnum.  It's light, it shoots fast, the ammo isn't expensive enough to break the bank ($0.30 to $0.40 per round) and it's got next to nothing for recoil.  Compared to my Mosin Nagant, it's got the recoil of a Red Ryder BB gun.

38

Just got me a Mosin Nagant M91\30 a few weeks back. Paid $125, but came with cleaning kit, bayonet, and sling. All matching serial #'s. No cracks in the stock and the bore is pristine. I saw some at the gun show for cheaper but just for the rifle... no accessories.

Still need to clean the grease out of it and take it to the range.

39 The current thinking is to engage with whatever you've got.  Even little .380 holdout rounds will get their attention, disrupt their plan, and every succeeding wave of response will be better armed and more numerous.

One off-duty guy with a CCW (T0), then the closest patrol 2 men with pistols/shotguns (T+5m), then everybody on-duty with a few carbines added in (T+10m), then the SWAT guys with assault and sniper rifles (T+30m), etc. throw in a few well armed citizen riflemen and this scenario grinds to halt in the US fairly quickly.

40 "To be perfectly frank, my current favorite shooter is a replica of the Winchester 1892 lever action in .357 Magnum."

Teddy Roosevelt knew a good gun, and that, of course, was TR's all-time favorite (the original, not a replica, of course).

41 Russ, my choice as well, just shoots nice.  The .357 lever gun ('94 Marlin) is what I've got with a "matching" K frame SW. 

42

How much did you spend at the chiropractor's to re-set your shoulder blade???

The recoil from a Mosin-Nagant is sprightly, but not really any worse than any other centerfire rifle. The M91/30 (full size infantry rifle) tames the recoil a little, so one hears, compared to the M44 or M38 carbines. If you get an M44, shoot it with the folding bayonet extended -- that's what the designers intended, and it's more accurate that way.

Kestrel, cycling the action with a 2x4 is related to the famed Mosin "sticky bolt." A lot of the milsurp ammo is lacquered, and that, in combination with any stray cosmoline hiding in the nooks and crannies (such as they are) of the bolt and/or chamber makes for spent brass glued into the chamber, more or less. When that happens, mechanical assistance can be handy.

For anyone interested in any of these fine and relatively inexpensive rifles, check out surplusrifle dot com.

43 Excellent points, Ace. It seems this was much more a human weakness rather than one of weaponry. I confess to not thinking deeper about it when I read that article.

Posted by: SamIam at December 01, 2008 05:26 PM (jl7C/)

  Thanks, Sam.  I'll let Ace know you approve of me putting it up.

(Don't worry, this happens ALL the time.  I think it's funny when someone disagrees with something I write and calls Ace an "assclown" for writing it, but I'm sure The Boss Man has a different perspective on the issue.)

44 Greetings:

A little off topic but pertainent:

Back in my infantry days, I used to tell my new soldiers this parable.

Two young riflemen were having the age-old philosophical discussion about where to shoot those who would oppose them. One was a "head-shooter"; the other preferred the "center-mass" (torso). The head-shooter asserted that if you hit him, he's done. The center-mass guy liked the larger target area. As they were going back and forth, their Platoon Sergeant came by."Hey, Sarge," called out the head-shooter, "where do you like to shoot the bad guys?"

"In the back," he replied.

As many as you can, as often as you can, anywhere and any way you can.

45
Praise The Lord!

This den of morons has finally gone back to its roots as a smart military blog.

46 Whoops -- shoulda said "any other centerfire rifle in the full-power .30 caliber and 8-11 pound range." Wasn't thinking about thumpenblitzenboomers like .499 Titanothere or .577 Tyrannosaur or .666 BeastMag (one of the three is a real round).

47 Didn't Oswald use a bolt action rifle to kill JFK?

48 Mosin-Nagant in 7.62x54R is a beast to shoot.  I'm sufficiently rotund that my mass should absorb the kick just fine.  It doesn't.  I have an M31 (built in 1944 as one of the last full-length M31s.)  I hate shooting it.  I wouldn't even _imagine_ shooting an M38 carbine.  I've seen "low power" surplus 7.62X54R so some government somewhere must agree with me.

.303 Enfield through a SMLE No.1 Mk.III is much, much better on your shoulder, with only slightly less ballistic strength.  The old cordite-fueled rounds suck, badly, as they have a perceptible delay between striking the primer and the ammunition actually going off.  Not hang-fires, but still there's an unsettling delay.  The brass butt-plate is a very nice touch.  The Rifle No. 4s have much better sights, but lack the cool look of the squared-off muzzle cap of the old Mk.IIIs.  I've got a 1916/1919 Mk. III (cobbled together after WWI from parts, I guess) and I love that gun.  (Makes a nice pair with my Webley and Scott Mk.6 revolver)  Enfield actions are smooth as glass.

It wouldn't have been much use, but the M1907 bayonets for the Mk.III rifles is something like 21" long and would have been quite scary to someone on the other end.  The WWII bayonets for the No.4 rifles are puny by comparison.

M1 Garands, firing full-power .30-06 rounds is surprisingly easy on the shoulder.  Easy to control.  Accurate.  .30-06 is going to kill anything you point it at within 250 yards, I don't care what you're wearing.  The en bloc clip is kind of a drag, but the rifle is great.  I passed on buying one, and let my buddy buy it instead, for a great deal.  I really blew it.  That would have been the right gun for the cops if they had to have an 'old' gun.

49 #47, Oswald used a Italian M91 Carcano carbine in 6.5mm.  Not exactly an Evil Black Assault Rifle, but good enough to hit a moving target twice at about 75 yards in six seconds.  And as far as the ballistics go, when you're comparing "head exploded like a ripe watermelon" to "head exploded like a ripe watermelon filled with M80s", it's really overlooking the Big Picture (which is the "head exploded" part).

50 Oops. Sorry.  M30 Mosin, not M31.  My bad.

51

The baton favored by the police of India is about 24" long and made of stout wood or plastic, often with a handgrip.  It is about 100 caliber, by the way, and represents the latest in the post-independence police equipment with the passing of the bugle and the donkey.

The baton may be thrown at an adversary, used overhand to administer blows or to thrust forward as would a pirate with a blade.  A white flag may be tied to one end in other circumstances.

I know of no studies comparing the combat effectiveness of the baton versus the AK-47.  Nor am I able to judge the better of a baton and a 100-year old rifle rusted shut through lack of use, or held by an officer paralyzed through fear.  This is quite understandable inasmuch as they only outnumbered the terrorists 60 to 2.

 

As far as I know there is no truth to the rumor that they had access to a trenchant that could have been used to lob dead cows over the parapets of the Maj., but some have speculated that the shoe thrown by an old lady was the most effective weapon used that day.  Future plans include one high-heeled shoe to be issued to each officer.

 

No expense will be spared to train and equip the police of Mumbai.

52 I wonder if the mentality is there (in India) for an effective police force, as far as these types of scenarios go.

I personally know a lot of police officers that have a motto of "If I buy it myself can I carry it?"  Heck, I even seen them pay out of pocket to go to Gunsite!  Something tells me that you don't have a lot of Indian police with that mentality.  At least I never seen any on TV act that way!

K

53

In a fight with terrorist of this ilk I would far prefer a simple 30.06 bolt or autoloader over a modern "force multiplier" round anything.  These whack jobs intend to fight to their death and as such, wounding them isn't going to get you much more than an increase in their rate of fire.  But reach out and tap them with a 30 cal from the pre M16 era and they will be done.

When I finished my tour i was one of those few die hards that refused to use the new 9mm and fiercely protected my 45 by keeping my CO sold on his.  As long as the old man had one, there would be ammo for mine.  Some of the guys went to the .40 after I left, but I think the 10mm is the better weapon.   What I want now, and would pay a pretty penny for, is a matching set, 10mm pistol and 10mm carbine which shared magazines of 10 to 15 rounds.  Combined with my Auto loader 30.06 and I'll have all the armament I think I need for the coming storm.  What I lack, I will be able to acquire.

54 And as far as the ballistics go, when you're comparing "head exploded like a ripe watermelon" to "head exploded like a ripe watermelon filled with M80s", it's really overlooking the Big Picture (which is the "head exploded" part).

Meh.  A head shot is a head shot.  Even a poodle-shooter .223 will cash a guy out if it's bouncing around in his cranium.

This is an excellent post.  If the cops actually had Enfields I wouldn't consider them out-gunned.  But cops aren't trained for this kind of thing in general, and it's not like you're expecting a coordinated attack when you've spent the last decade nabbing pickpockets.  I would expect a minute or two of "WTF daze" before you could really be expected to draw a bead on someone.

55 Oh, hell, just issue them all one of Sharp's buffalo guns and be done with it...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_51/ai_n13785373

56 #53 Good Luck finding that 10mm ammo on a bad day.  I think the .357 (or .3 wheel gun/lever gun is better suited for that scenario.  I also am enamored by the idea that someday a prosecutor will hold my cowboy gun up in front of jury and at least one Roy Rodgers/John Wayne fan give me the benefit of the doubt.

.38 is cheap to plink with as well.

57 that was .38 ) not a cool smilie intended there.

58 My first rifle was a Lee-Enfield .303 Canadian Army surplus.  It's a thing of beauty but the cost of ammo for it is through the roof.  At least $1 per round.

59 Why would you arm patrol cops with rifles anyways?  Police are supposed to mingle with the public.  A rifle slung over your shoulder is useless in most policing situations.

60 Lee Enfields are startlingly accurate as well. I've shot a 2" group at 300 yards over ladder aperture sights with a rifle made in 1943 (No. 4). For a long time post war, accurised Lee Enfields were the standard British Army sniper rifle. They were rebarrelled for 7.62 as the L42A1 and remained as sniper rifles until the L96A1 from Accuracy International replaced them. At the first battle of Mons in 1914, German forces came under such withering rifle fire from the retreating BEF that they thought they were being engaged by machine guns.

61

I know this is not gonna popular but I have an 1942 SMLE, 1918 Imperial Mosin Nagant, and a 1944 M1-Garand too in my collection.  But I also have Soviet 1954 SKS and it really is an advantage having a smaller caliber and semiauto action with a 30 round extended magazine.  The M1 Garand is superb, never, ever a jam or problem and the clip is unequaled.

Iif I had to storm a hotel I'd want an HK submachine gun with more rounds and a smaller kick.  Up close all of these WWI&II rifles are clumsy and slow.  I'd want something like the German MP40 Schmeisser.

62 I've owned an Enfield in original .303 British. It is one hell of a battle rifle, accurate, and as mentioned one with a super slick very fast bolt action. At anything over 100 yards I'd actually prefer the Enfield to most any AK variant. With proper use of cover and movement the Enfield wins because accuracy trumps firepower any day, and AKs are just not that accurate at range.

Even within the train terminal the Enfield is a formidable weapon.  Any single torso hit is very likely to be incapacitating if not outright fatal.  Again, the key is to fire from as much cover as available - make yourself a very small target.  Even if you do not actually hit them you would have forced them to take defensive actions - pretty much ending their strolling in the open shooting up everything in sight.

63 But a bolt-action rifle is useless for cops.

64

#56

If I can get the 10mm carbine and pistol, I will gleefully stock the ammo and reload my brass.

No wheel guns for me.  Managment of ammo when fighting from position to position is no fun with a wheel gun.  I could live with a lever action rifle, but prefer a mag fed weapon that can be fired prone without having to roll or lift to jack the next round.

The idea is to have mags placed in multipul places in the house and to be able to use them in either weapon.

 

But in the real bad days where such things will matter.  I'll most likely be using the best of what ever I take from the last hobo to save my prefered rounds for as long as possible.  Ironic huh.

65

Good Luck finding that 10mm ammo on a bad day

To paraphrase Sgt. Major Plumley in We Were Soldiers, by the time that's an issue, there will be plenty of other things lying around.

66 But a bolt-action rifle is useless for cops.

Posted by: fozzy at December 01, 2008 06:46 PM (ccEuN)

 Define "useless".  And please explain how cops armed with bolt action battle rifles are in worse shape than cops armed with 36" bamboo batons and cans of mace.

67

My guess is that an M1 carbine would have been the best bet those cops could have carried.  Light, good action, detachable magazine, and enough stopping power.

That goes without saying that you have to go out thinking 'if this is the day, what do I do?'.  Mental preparation is key.

68 #13.  I wonder how many of our police officers would have behaved differently.

Using the LAPD North Hollywood shooting as a gauge, I would say they would do fine.  There were no reports (that I know of) of officers running away, or cowering in fear.  They were certainly outgunned, and took casualties as a result, but my recollection is that many officers put themselves at risk repeatedly to rescue civilians and wounded officers, or take the fight to the bad guys.  

Also, in the years since North Hollywood and other active shooting situations, many Police Depts. in the US have seen the writing on the wall and have vastly improved the firepower (M4s & shotguns + more powerful handgun ammunition) and active shooter response training at the disposal of the patrol officers.  

69

i'm a huge fan of bolt action....my remington 700p is teh sex but there is one answer for cqb with an armored or hunkered down pos terrorist.....alexander arms beowulf .50 it's an ar15/m16 configuration which means it's evil so it's even awesomer.

i have a little jar that i put money in every week so i can buy one of their upper kits for my pof billet lower receiver.

light, quick and devastating....like my ex girlfriends.

70 Great post, Russ, but I've got a minor nit to pick with the following:

"The best body armor in the world can't stop a "major" caliber round from a battle rifle like the .303 British, .30-06 Government, or 7.62x54 Russian when fired from short to moderate distances - at best it could be expected to slow down the bullet and minimize the hydrostatic shock caused by the wound."

While your statement may be true when applied to soft body armor, it is incorrect, however, when SAPI plates are part of the armor system.

The SAPI inserts in the Interceptor armor used by the U.S. military are designed precisely to stop multiple hits by assault rifles and battle rifles. The newer E-SAPI inserts are even capable of defeating multiple rounds of armor-piercing ammunition.

Other than that minor point, very well done, Russ.

71 Pretty much my exact thoughts when I read that the Indian police "only" had "WWI rifles". 

72  Define "useless".  And please explain how cops armed with bolt action battle rifles are in worse shape than cops armed with 36" bamboo batons and cans of mace.

  I think these police were armed only with rifles, no sidearms.  If they were sitting behind cover, waiting for these terrorists to arrive, then rifles were the perfect choice.  But police have to mingle with the public and deal with people face to face.  In that situation, I would rather have the mace and club.

73 Those Bombayans needed a Sgt. Alvin York who, even with a WWI rifle, would have taken out all the terrorists and hiked up up to Pakistan to turkey shoot the kin.

74

Ishapor Number 4 Mark 1 Enfields in 7.62, but if you don't have the will, there is no way to kill your target.

75

Great post. 

George MacDonald Fraser was at his lyrical best when it came to the L-E:

"the standard arm was the most beautiful firearm ever invented, the famous short Lee Enfield, either of the old pattern with the flat backsight and long sword bayonnet, or the Mark IV with the pig-sticker, a nine inch spike with no cutting edge. The old pattern, which i carried, was the great rifle of the First World War, which the Old Contemptibles used with such speed and skill that the enemy often believed they were facing automatic weapons, and one German general told of how his division had been 'shot flat' by its disciplined fire. It held ten rounds with its magazine charged, and another up the spout, had an extreme range of close to a mile, and in capable hands was deadly accurate up to four hundred yards. I'm no Davy Crockett, but I could hit three falling plates (about ten inches square) out of five at two hundred, and I was graded only a first-class shot, not a marksman."

  (From Quartereed Safe out Here)

76

Weren't there only two terrorist/gunman at the train station and weren't there  20 or so assorted cops around the station.  If everyone fires one shot, there will be 20 more or less aimed bullets flying their way.  At those distances, probably less than 50m, the immediate result will be two well-riddled terrorist/gunman.  Who needs to work the bolt to reload.   

The types of rifles issued is not the problem.  The 303 round is perfectly deadly and will kill at quite long distance.  The problem is the utter passivity of the cops.  As they say, guns don't kill people, people kill people. 

77 Perhaps the "journalist" who wrote that little blurb would be willing to try an experiment -- say take a round from one of those WWI-era rifles then one from a WWII-era rifle.

Tell us which one makes you feel more dead, amigo. 

Flatliners playing journalist.

78   Actually, if you want to be factually acurate, the journalist didn't say that himself, he was quoting a spokesman from the Mumbai Railway Police.  Who was probably covering his ass by telling everyone "Hey, it's not our fault.  They gave us rifles that our grandfathers used back in the 20's.  What do you expect us to do with them?"

79 Confederate Yankee, yes, the E-SAPI's are Level IV and supposed to be able to stop M2 armor-piercing .30'06. That doesn't mean I want to be wearing that motherfucker when it happens. The laws of physics tell me it would be a bad idea. I don't even want to fucking think how bad it would hurt.

80 Just for the record, the Ishapores are NOT .303 to .308 conversions, they are cast as .308 at the foundry.

@16, Kestrel, do what I just did...don't settle for SMLE or Mosin-Nagant, get one of each. They're cheap. =) 7.62x54R is plentiful and cheap, and if you do like I did and get an Ishapore, you can share that yummy (and not-so-cheap-anymore) 7.62NATO/.308 with other yummy weapons.

This thread gives me chub.

I just picked me up an Ishapore 2A1 two weekends ago, and fired it for the first time last weekend. Kicks like a fucking mule, and grouped closer than my much-newer Marlin lever-action 336 in .30-30.

Unfortunately my Ishy is missing the extractor spring, so I wasn't able to get too many shots off. It should be here this week, but so should my 500 rounds of 54R to feed my brand-new, never fired Polish Mosin-Nagant M44.

My shoulder feels like Lawrence Taylor got ahold of it already, I know I'm in for a hurtin' this weekend.

81

David Gillies 60

 

When I was younger I read  a story about The Angels of Mons.  Apparently the Germans saw a huge force of British and were reluctant to go at them while apparently the Brits weren't a very strong force.  It was postulated that an angelic army intervened. Where's Fox Mulder when you need him?

82

Well look at it this way:  Both the Muslim terrorists and the likely Hindu Indian police are pretty much religiously fatalistic.  Its just that the Muslims are more active in their fatalism.

 

 

 

 

 

Can we give just give the Indian police a number to call in America for tech-support?

83

http://tinyurl.com/5twodx

You Nagant owners do know that they make recoil pads, right?

84

While a SMLE in .303 or .308 is an effective weapon, I have seen Ishapore SMLEs converted to .410 shotgun for police/riot use. If I was armed with a bolt action .410 I might have hesitated to engage suicidal terrorists with it at ranges of 50 to 70 meters.

Recoil? Try shooting a Marlin lever action 1895 cowboy in 45-70 with level III loads.

http://tinyurl.com/6xy99e for the recoil sensitive.

Sissies. 

85 good write up.

Personally I think the main issue with those cops was cowardice not lack of weaponry.

I wouldn't be the least concerned in that situation with an Enfield, if you hit your target he's "dead right there". I have an Enfield No. 4 MKII and a good supply of .303 FMJ ammo. Some of that ammo is head stamped 1944 and uses cordite as a propellant, it still goes bang every time and hits what I'm aiming at.

86 Good post, thanks Russ. 

I've seen a few Enfields around, and despite their age, I've noticed that they rarely get bad marks from folks who've actually USED them.

Hell, the M1A1 is no spring chicken either, but I'd take one in a heartbeat.

87 #10 and #25: Here's a video clip of the attack that shows a police officer with what appears to be an Enfield rifle hiding behind a column while the terrorist were less than 50 yards away... clearly, a trained shooter could easily take out at least one of them if not both...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5272189.ece

88  Ok, I have to pass this bit along. The rifle in question that the Indian police were possibly issued were made at the Ishapore Rifle Factory. During the early sixties the Indians tangled with the ChiComs over the borders in the Himalyain mountain range. At the time all they had were British Lee-Enfields in .303 brit. After losing ground in that engagement the Indian military decided that it would be a good idea to get on board with a semi or full auto rifle for thier troops.
 After deciding on ordering the FN-FAL from Fabique National for testing and subsequent adoption, they realized that they had all this tooling and machenery left behind by the british that was going to go to waste. Instead of having a bunch of rifles sitting around chambered in a round they didnt plan on useing, they had drawn up new dimentions for the recivers and bolts and adapted them to the old factory parts.
 What came off the line was, at first, the RIFLE 2A 7.62mm. The reciver was made out of higher tolerance steel to accomidate the higher pressures made by the 7.62 NATO round. These were issued to units in training and reserve after the FN-FAL arrived. These were made in 1965. After a while these rifles ended up in the hands of police and were sold over seas.

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