Indian Terror Attack Part II

It was getting a little crazy updating the original thread so here's the latest:

Several upscale hotels (frequented by westerners), a hospital, a train station and a police station were attacked in a coordinated effort that has been going on for about 4 hours and is continuing at the moment.

The cities top anti-terrorist cop is dead and several of his top officers are have either been killed or wounded.

Broadcast reports say 80 are dead and ~~200~~ 900 wounded but that's likely to increase.

National anti-terror troops have moved into the area, including at least one of the hotels where hostages are being held.

Americans and British were targeted and thought to be among the hostages.

Benson provided a link to an Indian broadcast network that is live streaming their coverage.

"Large blast" reported at Hotel Oberoi. The terrorists were thought to have had a large amount of explosives and the army was on the scene. Not sure what it means yet.

Posted by: DrewM. at 03:55 PM

Comments

1 Sadly, the hostages fate is already sealed if they are not able to take these gunmen out immediatly

Posted by: Jody C. at November 26, 2008 04:01 PM (B/Y39)

2 Army Commandos are in the Mumbai Oberoi hotel where there are apparently up to 15 armed terrorists (according to IBN: they repeated this number later in the broadcast). There was some firing and smoke deployed. At that time, a westerner escaped. He says the terrorists were armed with AK-47s and other "sophisticated rifles" as well as lots of explosives and detonators.

Prior to this, the terrorists asked for Americans and British subjects, checking their passports.

A terrible situation.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:01 PM (hawOV)

3 Reporter from India on Fox says 90 now dead.

Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:02 PM (qzcNU)

4 New tactics so far:

1. Boat Bomb for strike at waterfront target
2. Large number of attackers (How did the keep operational security?)
3. Strike at the Police Commanders means a new look at TOC security, and that they had coordinated spotters watching the news crews.
4. Going back to Hostages, thought they had dropped that one.

Posted by: Jean at November 26, 2008 04:02 PM (HVRSA)

5
On that IBN link, they are showing that the terrorists somehow got a police van and drove down the road shooting people.

MI-5 warned recently about terrorists buying up ambulances on Ebay in the UK.

Posted by: IreneFingIrene at November 26, 2008 04:03 PM (lhxhu)

6 Does anyone have any idea at all who these people are? I mean, besides the obvious.

Posted by: Eleven at November 26, 2008 04:03 PM (7DB+a)

7 Man it seems like they have a running gun battle throughout the city.

Maybe it's time for us to withdraw from our colony in India.

K

Posted by: Kestrel♠ at November 26, 2008 04:03 PM (0ry+S)

8 The Mumbai Taj hotel is on fire and the fire brigade hasn't been able to reach several parts of the hotel. I have no idea how extensive the fire is.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:04 PM (hawOV)

9 The same reporter says as many as 40 hostages held. Police have managed to kill two terrorists thus far.

Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:04 PM (qzcNU)

10 Ummm, uh....er uhhhhh, well I ummm....errrr uhhhh...........

Posted by: LtE113 (MIke in Chicago) at November 26, 2008 04:04 PM (VnwTv)

11 why do they keep showing this guy in the yellow shirt's bloody hand?

Posted by: icemike at November 26, 2008 04:05 PM (a7kOz)

12 "Does anyone have any idea at all who these people are? I mean, besides the obvious."

Allahpundit at Hot Air and counter-terrorism blog seems to think they may be "a Pakistani jihadi outfit like Lashkar e-Taiba instead of AQ" because they're using so many rifles and not just explosives.

Yet multiple simultaneous attacks is an AQ halmark and they're asking for westerner's passports so I remain unconvinced.

Who knows?

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:06 PM (hawOV)

13 why do they keep showing this guy in the yellow shirt's bloody hand?

That was video apparently taken while the shooting was going on. Note the people hitting the ground and looking around in the background.

Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:06 PM (qzcNU)

14 There is no real way to defend against an attack like this. If the Jihadi's get inside your country they can strike at will and no security force can defend all the possible targets.

Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 04:10 PM (GqpEk)

15 I'm copying part of another commenters' comment from the previous thread:

"Just saw where the terrorists hijacked police vehicles & are doing drive-bys. Just happened at a movie theater - the have it on film."

Shite.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:11 PM (hawOV)

16 Chicks from India have hot accents.

Just throwing that out there.

K

Posted by: Kestrel♠ at November 26, 2008 04:11 PM (0ry+S)

17 Pentagon says no diplomats or military officials known to be visiting the hotels, though they apparently stay there when they visit.

Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:11 PM (qzcNU)

18 "Large blast" reported at Hotel Oberoi. The terrorists were thought to have had a large amount of explosives and the army was on the scene. Not sure what it means yet.

If you check out comment 2, it doesn't sound good.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:13 PM (hawOV)

19 I only post that because I wonder if that could be a motive. The attackers were reportedly seeking out Brits and Americans at hotels where military and diplomatic officials usually stay?

Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:13 PM (qzcNU)

20 #14 That's why and armed populace is important. This type of attack in Israel would have lasted half an hour. In some parts of the US 1 in 30 would be shooting back.

Posted by: Jean at November 26, 2008 04:15 PM (HVRSA)

21 Deccan Mujahideen claims responsibility. It's a new outfit. Never heard of them before. Who knows if that info is right or not?

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:16 PM (hawOV)

22 CNN: Two terrorists still held up in Oberoi hotel.

ALSO: Deccan Mujahideen claims responsibility in email.

Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:18 PM (qzcNU)

23 The Hindu backlash against Muslims in India should be getting started right about now.

Posted by: Jean at November 26, 2008 04:19 PM (HVRSA)

24 That's why and armed populace is important. This type of attack in Israel would have lasted half an hour. In some parts of the US 1 in 30 would be shooting back.

Posted by: Jean at November 26, 2008 04:15 PM (HVRSA)

Yeah, thats for sure. I just hope the same thing isn't planned in the US for Thanksgiving. The British IIRC, said something about AQ attempting to get an ambulance, and the guys in India seem to have done something similar. Somali's have been vanishing from the St Paul area, which they thought was for an operation in Somalia. It may be for something closer.

Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 04:19 PM (GqpEk)

25 IBN is saying the Deccan Mujahideen are young males in their early 20s, lifetime zombies . like democrats, but armed and psychotic.

Posted by: Ben at November 26, 2008 04:20 PM (rs7M9)

26

The Cama hospital seems to be a women's and children's hospital. Absolutely savage.

Posted by: IreneFingIrene at November 26, 2008 04:21 PM (lhxhu)

27 Alright, "Deccan" is a large plateau in southern/mid India. Deccan comes from the Prakrit word "dakkhin", which is derived from the Sanskrit word "dakṣiṇa", which means south.

"Mujahideen", of course, refers to a fighter in jihad.

CNN is trying to downplay the Muslim angle, of course. The one reporter is wondering if Hindu extremists could've been involved in the group while another is downplaying the claim of responsibility.

Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:22 PM (qzcNU)

28 Good to see the Crescent News Network is on the case.

Posted by: Ben at November 26, 2008 04:23 PM (rs7M9)

29 At the Trident hotel, there are 40-odd hostages and a gun battle now going on on the 7th and 8th floors.

Lovely.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:23 PM (hawOV)

30 My brother in law is supposed to travel to Bangalore next week for his company. I'm a little worried.

Posted by: kevlarchick at November 26, 2008 04:24 PM (TNuqz)

31 "CNN is trying to downplay the Muslim angle, of course. The one reporter is wondering if Hindu extremists could've been involved in the group while another is downplaying the claim of responsibility."

Cocksuckers!

That wouldn't be the same network that collaborated with Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath party, would it?

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:24 PM (hawOV)

32 I am sure it's the pentecostals and methodists - screw CNN

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 04:29 PM (J7EkY)

Look, Deccan Mujahideen = AQ. It's not like AQ is centralized or anything. Their only business is franchising terror, and the franchising fee is the promise of killing infidels. And Hindus are the bestest infidels to kill of all.

I'm getting really sick of these bastards.

Posted by: Rocketeer at November 26, 2008 04:29 PM (mUWtd)

34 I agree with others wondering if this is related to the Ebay ambulance sale stuff in London.

A city like that, with it's basically idiotic government and cowardly populace and poorly armed police force could be chaotic for weeks under a large assault.

I know this wouldn't happen here in Texas, of course, but wherever it happens, it's a huge problem. As far as I'm concerned, we're all Indians, and we should dramatically escalate the War on Terror in a specific place as a clear reprisal.

Just imagine if Iran gave that enriched Uranium to these guys, who proceeded to attack London and set off a couple of dirty nukes where panicking people would congregate when fleeing... It's not hard to get very concerned.

Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 04:30 PM (8jYMc)

35 Motherfuckers.

Posted by: Tushar at November 26, 2008 04:30 PM (PTWes)

memo to self - do not leave house for anything without glock and back up

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 04:31 PM (J7EkY)

37 "Look, Deccan Mujahideen = AQ. It's not like AQ is centralized or anything"

That's my thinking. It's one of the reasons I pointed out on the last thread that Al Quaeda's attacks tend to be coordinated within a country... not internationally... probably due to their own organization for OpSec reasons.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:31 PM (hawOV)

38 33 is exactly right. Al Qaida is basically a phonebook for terrorists. Most of the islamofascists are connected.

Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 04:31 PM (8jYMc)

39 The Weekly Standard wonders if Pakistan's ISI is involved. It appears to be a very well-coordinated attack and well-financed, too.

Considering they were targeting Americans, if Pakistan was involved, wouldn't that qualify as an act of war?

Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:32 PM (qzcNU)

40 maybe Obama will send them flowers ... sorry sack of crap

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 04:33 PM (J7EkY)

41 "Considering they were targeting Americans, if Pakistan was involved, wouldn't that qualify as an act of war?"

No.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:33 PM (hawOV)

42 Well-coordinated and well-financed...where is the money coming from?Oil rich Saudi sympathizers?

Posted by: IC at November 26, 2008 04:36 PM (jZNCU)

43 To Miles O'Brien's credit, he's openly assuming that Islamic extremists are involved. He even notes that AQ doesn't need to be directly involved to have inspired them.

Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:36 PM (qzcNU)

44 I'm sure if we meet with the Deccan Mujahidin -- without preconditions -- we will be able to negotiate some sort of peaceful settlement after we apologize.

Posted by: Barack Obama at November 26, 2008 04:37 PM (waYsO)

45 State Department has set up a crisis center. Rice expected to all Indian officials to offer assistance, CNN says.

Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:38 PM (qzcNU)

46 I *told* you this could happen! "Mark my words," didn't I say?

Posted by: Joe Biden at November 26, 2008 04:39 PM (U0dI+)

Considering they were targeting Americans, if Pakistan was involved, wouldn't that qualify as an act of war?

Contra Christoph, it most certainly would be - provided ISI ever fessed up publicly, or we could effectively prove it absent that.

Which means, no.

Posted by: Rocketeer at November 26, 2008 04:41 PM (mUWtd)

This type of terror attacks will make it's way again to the USA, CANADA, BRITIAN, and other allies soil.

Drop a few bombs... yes innocent people will die but maybe seems this maybe the only way to battle terrorism. Sorry, but here will always be "collateral damage" .....drop some bombs !

Posted by: D at November 26, 2008 04:41 PM (jB0IR)

These Pakistani scumbag terrorists want to attack India because of its friendship with the US and Israel. Once Obama starts deploying troops to Waziristan, Osama and his dipshit coward militia will scatter around like cockroaches.

Posted by: vince at November 26, 2008 04:42 PM (xqzGc)

50 Fuckin Moby get the fuck out

Posted by: Eleven at November 26, 2008 04:43 PM (7DB+a)

51 Specifically targeting Brits and Yanks is not a very smart way to isolate India from the West.

Posted by: ThomasD at November 26, 2008 04:44 PM (21H5U)

52 9 terrorists arrested? Why bother?

Posted by: Rocks at November 26, 2008 04:44 PM (Q1lie)

53 It appears the police have arrested 10 and killed a couple of the bad guys. If those arrested turn out to be middle class kids from Bangalore or Hyderabad then the Indian polity is going to have to do some intense soul searching.
The police were good at catching criminals and people from the slums who readily gave confessions to save their families. If the new type of terrorist is recruited in internet chat rooms & air conditioned malls then the Indian police is severely disadvantaged.
Ultimately, politicians have to take responsibility for legitimizing violence and communal riots as part of their sleazy 'vote bank' politics.

Posted by: vivek at November 26, 2008 04:45 PM (9hFg9)

54 These are the scum that the "civilized world" thinks deserve all the protection of Geneva conventions and humane treatment. Those involved that get caught alive will suffer some Indian hospitality and to hell with what the cocksuckers in Europe and the ass-lickers in Intl. Human Rights bodies think. Indian Police and security organizations are run by some clear-headed people, not some EUnuchs.

Posted by: Tushar at November 26, 2008 04:45 PM (PTWes)

55 Who are the hostages? All Indian nationals or are there Westerners as well? Does anyone know?

Posted by: IC at November 26, 2008 04:46 PM (jZNCU)

9 terrorists arrested? Why bother?

It's Singh's India, not Obama's America. Think of it as "pre-torture-and-execution."

Posted by: Rocketeer at November 26, 2008 04:47 PM (mUWtd)

57 question the prisoners then burry them under pig entrails

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 04:47 PM (J7EkY)

58 did i say question ... I meant torture the bury ....

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 04:48 PM (J7EkY)

It is unfortunate that some people will paint all muslim with the same brush...just wait.

These muslim terrorists do not deserve a bullet in their heads... they deserve a slow and painful death. Cut their limbs off.

I hope the USA and allies start some serious shit over there and get these bastards

Posted by: D at November 26, 2008 04:48 PM (jB0IR)

60 This is going to give a boost to the Hindu nationalists in India. Not good news for the Muslims or Christians in India.

Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 04:49 PM (GqpEk)

61 All U.S. consulate staff accounted for.

Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:51 PM (qzcNU)

"Contra Christoph, it most certainly would be - provided ISI ever fessed up publicly, or we could effectively prove it absent that.

"Which means, no."

That's what I meant.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:52 PM (hawOV)

The BBC published a picture of one of the attackers, it looked as if he may have been wearing a rakhi (symobilic string given by sisters to brothers on rakhi day) which could indicate he may be Hindu!

Posted by: K at November 26, 2008 04:52 PM (C7yWR)

64 #60 - Very true. Hindu nationalists are pretty much terrorists themselves, burning churches, raping nuns, killing priests, you name it, they have done it. That said, if the Paki's are behind this, Muslims in India are going to have a pretty hard time with the backlash and to some extend, since they never seem to denounce violence and brutality to infidels, they deserve it.

Posted by: IC at November 26, 2008 04:53 PM (jZNCU)

65 Given the nature of <a href="http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/">the religion of peace</a> I think the world cute them plenty of slack

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 04:53 PM (J7EkY)

66 This is very serious. The sheer breadth of this attack is staggering-- the coordinated level? I think AQ is behind this-- some unknown group is claiming responsibility, but this is too big, too good, for a bunch of unknowns... The training and planning that would have gone into this... downright scary.

How did they retain their operational security with this large a number of participants? This is really quite troubling.

Posted by: Amy at November 26, 2008 04:53 PM (U0dI+)

67 Rocketeer is right... this massive of an attack is a huge intelligence failure. They need extensive and numerous interrogations... and that means taking some alive. I don't think they should have reported doing so, however.

Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 04:55 PM (8jYMc)

I hope Inida kills all those SOB's. Sounds like an al-qaida operation, and probably meant to be the start of a new terror campaign. Not just India, I bet the US AND Britain are next. I wonder what the One will really do, if anything.

Posted by: BattleofthePyramids at November 26, 2008 04:55 PM (tk9fc)

69 Amy, it very well could be both an Al Qaida op and a 'new group' op. Al Qaida probably is involved... in providing help with planning, weapons contacts, help funneling cash and communicating.

I imagine the op sec had to be something interesting. Did they keep all the terrorists in a different country and then bring them to india at the last second? I have no idea.

Had this happened a month ago, Mccain would be the next president.

Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 05:00 PM (8jYMc)

70 The Taj hotel is being left to burn to protect the fire crews.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:01 PM (hawOV)

Fucking Bastards, didn't even spare hospitals, these lot ought to be shot in the testicles.

The Indian government must act, they have far too much to loose from all this terrorist activitiy. Since 9/11 India as suffered the most at the hands of these sister fucking terrorists!

Posted by: K at November 26, 2008 05:04 PM (C7yWR)

72 Hopefully the Indians kill the majority of them and those they capture they eventually execute.

Posted by: Paid for by the Justice For Kat-Mo Committe at November 26, 2008 05:04 PM (0a8xk)

73 somebody didn't get the memo about the era of rainbows, unicorns and harmony!

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 05:05 PM (J7EkY)

Terrible terrible terrible day. A day before Thanksgiving. I'm thankfuul for my clock 9mm and my 12 gauge. At least I can feel someone secure in the fact that a lot of americans are packin. If something like this happened here it wouldnt be as bad me thinks.

Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 05:05 PM (XWkks)

75 Shill, you're probably right. I mean look at groups like Al-Shebab, they're AQ-supported and yet "separate." Besides the level of attacks, AQ has said their primary targets are Americans and Brits, in that order, followed by the Spanish and Australians... So to hear that Americans and British were singled out...

I will be paying close attention to the information that comes out... I think this is a sad day for Indian intelligence.

Posted by: Amy at November 26, 2008 05:05 PM (U0dI+)

76 If this turns out not to be linked to the ISI, but to Gulf Arab financing and Muslin Brotherhood/Al Queda networks, Mr. Obama is going to have himself a problem.

Posted by: Jean at November 26, 2008 05:06 PM (HVRSA)

77 Extremists are extremists in any faith or belief. What is a shame is that whoever is responsible for this (and I suspect that there are two groups at work here - perhaps the Deccans and the Hindu Nationalists, at first glance) will cause many people to suffer, and not just their hostages. The normal, more toned-down, non-extremist peoples related to these groups will now be targeted. The phenomena will increase as we move west, and by the time it hits the US, people will be pissed off at all Muslims and Hindus alike.

Posted by: Nicole at November 26, 2008 05:06 PM (E7ZSg)

78 Tush and IFI,

A friend of mine who is from India says this is the end of the Congress Party. There are apparently elections in the next 6 months or so and he thinks this will play to the benefit off the BJP.

Thoughts?

Posted by: DrewM. at November 26, 2008 05:06 PM (hlYel)

72 Hopefully the Indians kill the majority of them and those they capture they eventually execute.

Hopefully they torture them a bit. Not sure how the Indians do it but I hope they do torture them

Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 05:07 PM (XWkks)

80 If it occurred due to massive police screwup BJP could take a hit; but it is likely to strengthen the BJP.

Posted by: Jean at November 26, 2008 05:10 PM (HVRSA)

81 "The Deccan Herald" "Monday, September 15, 2008" http://tinyurl.com/634dan "The Indian Mujahideen, which has claimed responsibility for the Delhi, Ahmedabad, Bangalore and Jaipur blasts killing at least 130 people in a span of four months, has now threatened to carry out attacks in Mumbai, report Agencies."

Posted by: minnie at November 26, 2008 05:10 PM (zplc6)

82 Damn, Nicole, your comment #77 was just stupid.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:11 PM (hawOV)

9 terrorists arrested? Why bother?

The News has already said that the Indians are using �enhanced questioning techniques� to dtermine if more acts are coming.

They can shoot them after the questioning.

Posted by: Vic at November 26, 2008 05:12 PM (Qd7GC)

84 This will be the end of the Congress party. I say this as someone who has been generally supportive of them. They are a soft party on national security sort of like our Democrats. BJP is the national security party. Even though I am not a fan of some of their extreme right wingers, they do tend to be tough. Congress will lose and deserves to lose. The last 12 months have seen a series of terrorist attacks in major cities of India. The home minister Shivraj Patil (a combination of the Secreatary of Homeland Security, and the Attorney General) who is in charge of internal security is incompetant and should be the first one to go. The Prime Minister Manmohan Singh who is a free-market reformer, unfortunately, has not proven to be tough on security. Whether it is BJP or Congress, economic reforms will continue, but BJP may be better on security. If they can keep their extreme right wingers under control, they can govern effectively.

Posted by: truth_teller at November 26, 2008 05:16 PM (2OWVj)

85 I wonder if the "hijacked police van" is the result of gunmen in or near the theater shooting at a legitimate police van?

Posted by: slickdpdx at November 26, 2008 05:17 PM (RIdwM)

86 Drew,

You'd have to ask Tushar. I'm ignorant on this stuff. My parent are from there, but I was born here.

Posted by: IreneFingIrene at November 26, 2008 05:18 PM (A9rtY)

This sounds very coordinated.

I think Mr. Obama has his test; if they have captured American hostages, we will see them either being thrown off the roof of the hotel or being used to demand ransom.

Politics of fear? Is terrorism real enough yet?

Posted by: PJ at November 26, 2008 05:19 PM (FG8qn)

88 CNN-IBN is now reporting that terrorists have taken patients as hostages in a hospital in Mumbai. These guys are sick and what they represent is the worst of humanity. For a long time I drew a distinction between Islam and these terrorists. No longer. There is clearly something wrong with this faith.

Posted by: truth_teller at November 26, 2008 05:20 PM (2OWVj)

89 Let's hope to God that Pakistan isn't involved in this.

Posted by: w_boodle at November 26, 2008 05:21 PM (AN4pk)

90 "CNN-IBN is now reporting that terrorists have taken patients as hostages in a hospital in Mumbai."

No (real) negotiation. The anti-terrorist forces should attack (when ready).

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:23 PM (hawOV)

91 any word on how the Indian Army is doing on their assault on the hotels?

Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 05:24 PM (XWkks)

92 There is something wrong with their faith; OT - The Malaysian government banned Muslims from practicing yoga because the chanting involved would tempt them to leave Islam [and convert to a yet to be discovered religion that is brought on by indulging in yoga]. Snort.

Posted by: IC at November 26, 2008 05:25 PM (jZNCU)

Indeed, Christoph.

Posted by: Max Power at November 26, 2008 05:26 PM (q177U)

94 Jonathan - I've been watching but haven't heard anything since it was said they went in.

Mike Baker is on Fox talking about it. Love that guy.

Posted by: Shannon at November 26, 2008 05:26 PM (q0Z3p)

90 No (real) negotiation. The anti-terrorist forces should attack (when ready).

true that... these guys don't seem to care much for human life so I doubt those hostages have much hope. Just go in and take them out quickly and efficiently

Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 05:27 PM (XWkks)

96 Let's hope to God that Pakistan isn't involved in this.

I just told a couple of people that I hope to God it's AQ (and given the level of coordination and the attack on landmark sites, I think it is). If this gets tied back to the ISI, it's war. And where that ends, no one knows.

Posted by: DrewM. at November 26, 2008 05:29 PM (hlYel)

Has anyone heard of Ali Sina? his website faithfreedom.org this man is an ex muslim, who one day read the Koran and realised that it is a terrorist manual in the disguise of a holy book.

Check his site out to understand Islamic Fundamentalism, he argues against the age old saying "its not the religion but the people". Islam is the evil ideology and the terrorists who you see reading the Koran when committing these evil acts are the true muslims!

Posted by: K at November 26, 2008 05:32 PM (C7yWR)

98 I don't know if this has been posted before, but mosques in poor areas have been stepping up their recruitment of street thugs and bangers. Not really teaching them Islam, just hate. Been told they are to be used for attacks against America.

Just want to pass that along. Happy Thanksgiving! Pack extra magazines!

Posted by: Clovis27 at November 26, 2008 05:37 PM (D+kp1)

99 Pakistan is involved but not their civilian political leadership. Pakistan is a hydra-headed monster and ISI is the most deadly of them. ISI has to be clearly involved. The sophistication of the weapons these terrorists are using, the multiple attacks, and the focus on U.S., British, and Israeli interests clearly points to ISI. This presents a great opportunity for the new Pakistani civilain leadership to completely break free of the ISI and join hands with India and U.S. to put down these guys once and for all.

Posted by: truth_teller at November 26, 2008 05:39 PM (2OWVj)

100 "I just told a couple of people that I hope to God it's AQ (and given the level of coordination and the attack on landmark sites, I think it is). If this gets tied back to the ISI, it's war. And where that ends, no one knows."

Dude, we should be able to take out their nuclear arsenal pretty quick. Piece of cake. We'll be greeted as liberators.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:41 PM (hawOV)

101 Extremists are extremists in any faith or belief. What is a shame is that whoever is responsible for this (and I suspect that there are two groups at work here - perhaps the Deccans and the Hindu Nationalists, at first glance) will cause many people to suffer, and not just their hostages. The normal, more toned-down, non-extremist peoples related to these groups will now be targeted. The phenomena will increase as we move west, and by the time it hits the US, people will be pissed off at all Muslims and Hindus alike.

Posted by: Nicole at November 26, 2008 05:06 PM (E7ZSg)

I think you have bought into the 'Islam is a religion of peace' bullshit. I mean since when has that been true? 1,400 years of history and we see no evidence of it. Isn't 14 centuries enough to come to the radical conclusion that Islam is exactly what the Muslims say it is?

Omar Bakri Mohammad's followers in the U.K. held a conference in support of the imposition of Islamic law. A rare moment of clarity:

"Women need to be covered up, men lashed for fornication [outside marriage] and hands cut off for theft and breaking Sharia law," he said.

When a woman in a burkha asked how he could justify this when Islam was supposed to be a religion of peace, the crowd mocked her. But it was Choudary who rose to put her in her place. "Islam is not a religion of peace," he said. "It is a religion of submission. We need to submit to the will of Allah."

Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 05:41 PM (GqpEk)

102

If Pakistani leadership were to ditch ISI, Zardari and Co would end up with Mrs Bhutto!! The ISI is the most powerful institution in Pakistan!

Posted by: K at November 26, 2008 05:42 PM (C7yWR)

103 Chabad Lubavitch - Mumbai, India Website Nariman House, 5, Hormusji street, colaba

Posted by: slickdpdx at November 26, 2008 05:42 PM (RIdwM)

104 "This presents a great opportunity for the new Pakistani civilain leadership to completely break free of the ISI and join hands with India and U.S. to put down these guys once and for all."

Smoke dope much?

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:42 PM (hawOV)

105 Fox is now reporting over 100 foreigners held hostage!!

Posted by: Amy at November 26, 2008 05:43 PM (U0dI+)

106 Well said Travis, this is an evil cult not a religion.

Posted by: K at November 26, 2008 05:44 PM (C7yWR)

107 #77

The Hindus aren't my enemy yesterday, today or tomorrow.

Posted by: Captain Hate at November 26, 2008 05:45 PM (m2sQh)

108 "Well said Travis, this is an evil cult not a religion."

At best, only 1 religion out of all of them isn't false. At worst, all are false.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:46 PM (hawOV)

109 Captain Hate, Nicole's comment was mind numbingly stupid. There were several aspects of it that made no sense. One was that she believes this is probably the work of an alliance of Muslim and Hindu terrorists.

Uh huh.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:47 PM (hawOV)

110 The word Islam means submission.

It's truly amazing that people buy into this horrible religion. It's more obviously ridiculous than any other. All that talk about not worshiping idols, and yet their Mecca is the center of idol worship and they worship a big rock in the middle of it.

Sadly, it's truly one of the most evangelical religions out there. It gains supporters all the time. Until the world is educated about how sick this crap is, we won't win the war on terror.

Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 05:49 PM (8jYMc)

111

Damn, Nicole, your comment #77 was just stupid.

Sez the guy who parroted Bill Maher's comments about the 9/11 terrorists being brave. Keep 'em coming, Chris...

Posted by: Additional Blond Agent at November 26, 2008 05:49 PM (PMGbu)

112 Christoph, yeah I think she had good intentions but damn.....

Posted by: Captain Hate at November 26, 2008 05:50 PM (m2sQh)

113 Cristoph, it's not really false religions that are the problem.

Even if Christianity is 'false', you have to admit it's been a huge force for good. From civil rights to fighting communist athiests...

It's the religions like Islam that are barbaric that are the problem. I wish these folks would all worship Rainbow Bright.

I also have no idea where Nicole gets her accusation that Hindus are responsible. They aren't and it's pretty obvious. Hindus targeting the British, Israelis, and Americans? That's propaganda from our enemies at CNN. They know they are covering for killers, and as far as I'm concerned, they have blood on their hands today.

Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 05:53 PM (8jYMc)

114 "Sez the guy who parroted Bill Maher's comments about the 9/11 terrorists being brave."

They were evil. And displayed obvious physical courage.

Neville Chamberlain was a good man. But literally shook in Hitler's presence when Hitler mentioned war.

Hitler had moments of both bravery and cowardice (most people do). During WW1, he volunteered for service and did his job bravely as a runner. During the Beer Hall Putsch, he ran for cover when shots were fired, causing his men to run. Then he started WW2 and murdered millions upon millions of people.

Bravery and goodness are simply different things.

Evil people are often brave. Taking over the world isn't the act of a coward, is it, if you think about it logically? If you're even capable of thinking about it logically.

I think bravery is a virtue, but moral decency a far higher one. Bravery to my mind only becomes a great virtue when used in a good way.

It's like "skill". It describes a certain thing -- usually a good thing, sometimes not. Nazi generals may have been skilled, but they were invading free democracies and killing folks for no good reason.

I realize this is all going over your head.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:57 PM (hawOV)

115 "Even if Christianity is 'false', you have to admit it's been a huge force for good."

It's been a mixed force.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:58 PM (hawOV)

116 Christoph

How would you describe it as a mixed force? It has done more good for the world then anyone one person or country.

K

Posted by: Kestrel♠ at November 26, 2008 06:00 PM (0ry+S)

117 Christians are a mixed force. Christianity isn't. Just like Muslims are a mixed force, but Islam isn't.

Posted by: Clovis27 at November 26, 2008 06:01 PM (D+kp1)

118 A lot of what people ascribe to Christianity as being the virtues of modern society, were actually happenings of the enlightenment when people started throwing off the shackles of Christian dogma from their mind, and returned to Classical ideas of the Greeks and Romans (pre-dictatorship). Some of these thinkers were Christians, many were Deists.

A.k.a., non-Christians -- however much Christians falsely tried to claim them as their own.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:02 PM (hawOV)

119 "Christianity isn't."

Christianity itself is.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:02 PM (hawOV)

120 Chabad Lubavitch - Mumbai, India Website Nariman House, 5, Hormusji street, colaba
Posted by: slickdpdx

Jews! They're everywhere! lol

Posted by: Paid for by the Justice For Kat-Mo Committe at November 26, 2008 06:03 PM (0a8xk)

121 Christoph,

Christianity is, by far, the largest religion on the planet. Of course many bad things have been done in its name. So yeah, mixed. About 99.9999999999999% good, but mixed.

It's sad that people think this religion can be compared to Islam (and I can't have a religion discussion with a devout Christian without going both parties going nuts, so don't think I'm just cheering on my side).

Christianity is a fundamentally amazing aspect of the human race. It's about forgiveness and kindness. It's persistent. It's ended many evils and is the foundation for democratic philosophy and modern civilization.

but yeah, they had the crusades and the inquisition. What makes Christianity significant is that it's a thinking man's religion, and such problems were reformed from within the religion. That's why, in the past few centuries (which frankly is all that's relevant to what the religion is today), Christianity has been almost entirely a force for good.

Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 06:03 PM (8jYMc)

122 How do you figure?

Posted by: Clovis27 at November 26, 2008 06:04 PM (D+kp1)

123

Until the world is educated about how sick this crap is, we won't win the war on terror.

And I'm sure our new messiah will lead the way. So what if he thinks the muslim call to prayer is one of the prettiest sounds on earth?

(For the record, I think it sounds like Satan ringing the dinner bell)

Posted by: TiredWench at November 26, 2008 06:04 PM (VVOw6)

124 "How would you describe it as a mixed force? It has done more good for the world then anyone one person or country."

And its also done harm. Therefore mixed.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:04 PM (hawOV)

125 I agree that Christianity today is partly great because it sprung from the ashes of Roman democracy.

But consider Islam. Can it be reformed? Can the books be reinterpreted? I don't think it's possible.

Christianity can be reformed... and that's a big part of why it's so important.

Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 06:05 PM (8jYMc)

126

Not really Christoph! I will be happy to enage in a debate as long as this doesn't descend into hurling school yard taunts back and forth.

The new Pakistani civilian leadersip barely escaped assasination the day the new Pakistani President was sworn in just a few months ago. The terrorists levelled a Marriott hotel in the heart of Islamabad, a hotel also frequented by westerners.

I believe there is a convergence of inrterests among the Pakistani civilian leadership, India, and U.S. And in the case of the civilian leadership in Pakistan this is purely an issue of survival. I don't mean political, but physical. What I am suggesting is not out of the realm of possibility.

Posted by: truth_teller at November 26, 2008 06:07 PM (2OWVj)

127 Nariman House is one of the targets of the reported attack.

Posted by: slickdpdx at November 26, 2008 06:07 PM (RIdwM)

128 Christoph, do you think the enlightment could have occured in an Islamic or Athiestic country?

It cannot. It only was possible in a society like a Christian one.

You can't claim I'm wrong because those creating democracy were not citing the bible to do so. Christianity was compatible with civilization, which itself is a big deal.

Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 06:07 PM (8jYMc)

129 "How do you figure?"

It's easy for me to answer that question with example after example, although I only need one example to carry the point.

However, it's pointless for me to do so. You're convinced of Christianity's truthfulness and goodness so any example I give will turn into a long debate. You will use circular and illogical reasoning and nothing will persuade you. In the end, it will come down to exhortations of faith, the opposite of reason.

That's why I phrased my original comment that "at best" 1 religion isn't false. Hey... maybe yours is it.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:07 PM (hawOV)

130 No matter what you say about India's security, their firemen have some kickin' hats!

K

Posted by: Kestrel♠ at November 26, 2008 06:08 PM (0ry+S)

131 Not to get too far off topic... we just seem to have a different POV. It's not religion itself that is the problem. That was my original point. In fact religion is an important aspect of life for most people and it's important to distinguish Islam, which cannot really be fixed, from the other religions.

Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 06:09 PM (8jYMc)

132

Christoph,Reference your "mixed force" analogy:

All religions have done harm. I am not a fan of any religion. But Islam as it stands today, as it is practiced and interpreted, especially the Saudi version backed by Saudi money is not a force for good. It is an especially virulent version that causes more harm than good. It is naive and dangerous to equate this Islam with other religions of today.

Posted by: truth_teller at November 26, 2008 06:10 PM (2OWVj)

133 Christoph, I was only saying that I think that it is a misinterpretation of Chirstianity that has done harm. I am not looking for an example of how Christians have done harm, you are right, there are many. Do you have an example of a Christian doctrine that is harmful?

On the other hand, it seems to me that it is the correct interpretation and application of Islam that is harmful.

Posted by: Clovis27 at November 26, 2008 06:11 PM (D+kp1)

134 "Christoph, do you think the enlightment could have occured in an Islamic or Athiestic country?"

Yes, but in a different form (everything in history only happens once one way).

Muslims were at one time far more mathematically advanced than Christian nations and probably had more art, science, and so forth. Atheists can be or not be enlightened, but there is nothing in particular about atheism that rejects knowledge or directs it down certain pathways.

Christianity is less oppressive and violent than Islam, since it largely rejected the huge genocidal and war rapist violence of the Old Testatment Jews, who were largely pacified by the Romans. Even monogomous marriage is a Roman institution.

There are differences. I'm not saying Islam leads to western society because that isn't true. I'm not saying Christianity is as violent as Islam because that isn't true. I'm saying I think Christianity is a mixed bag, like pretty much everything else, ever.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:11 PM (hawOV)

135 "Christoph, I was only saying that I think that it is a misinterpretation of Chirstianity that has done harm."

I know. I'm saying that has been harmful at times, but Christianity is as well, at times, to a degree.

"Do you have an example of a Christian doctrine that is harmful?"

Sure. But it's pointless to mention. If one starts from viewpoint Christianity is true and the word of God, then all examples to the contrary are futility defined.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:15 PM (hawOV)

136 The "genocidal and war rapist violence of the Old Testatment Jews?" What are you talking about Christoph? Can you cite any historical record of the violence you are referring to here? There is no such thing.

Posted by: truth_teller at November 26, 2008 06:16 PM (2OWVj)

137 Anyway, this is off topic. Other people brought up faith and I felt justified in bringing it up the way I did. I'm not trying to argue superiority of a religion nor inferiority.

Humans were killed of many religions and it's a tragedy. They were certainly killed as a result of an ideology from the most violent large-scale religion on the planet.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:16 PM (hawOV)

138 The "genocidal and war rapist violence of the Old Testatment Jews?" What are you talking about Christoph? Can you cite any historical record of the violence you are referring to here? There is no such thing.

I wouldn't have a hope of citing any such historical record. No, I couldn't do it and I don't think anyone else could either.

However, if one used the Bible, it would be easy.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:17 PM (hawOV)

139 Of course it's a mixed bag. But the purest water you can buy is a mixed bag. The most perfect diamond is a mixed bag... if you look hard enough.

Among civilization's religions, Christianity gets the blue ribbon for its presence around and within progress.

You claim that the enlightenment could have occurred in an Islamic nation. I certainly hope you're right, because it's those people who have to change in order for the world to be free of global terrorism.

But unlike the long multi authored and impossible to perfectly source bible, the Koran cannot be changed with the times. None of its verses can be ignored or given an asterisk. The religion of today is precisely the one of 1400 years ago. That's the core problem with Islam... it cannot be enlightened.

Christianity is so mushy that the crap has been dropped ages and ages ago. It's conformed and the people around it were much more free to do good.

Perhaps I'm just pessimistic, but looking at the bastards taking the sick from hospitals as hostages, and flying planes into towers of accountants, and knowing their religion has never changed, I am thinking it's a specific aspect of Islam that is the problem...

Like I said, most Christians I meet find my views on religion to be a huge problem. I'm not cheering for my side... just history. The thinkers who created French and American democracy weren't Athiests or Muslims.

Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 06:20 PM (8jYMc)

140 "Christianity is, by far, the largest religion on the planet."

Well, except for Islam.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:21 PM (hawOV)

141 Perhaps it is pointless to mention. The thing is Christianity recognises the two kingdoms, and that man is still sinful even after conversions etc etc. You seem like you know. So the harmful application is understood from the beginning. For example, all of our heros in Scripture are incredibly flawed. "Here is the word of God, you will misapply this, try not to," is a theme.

But you are right, we may get nowhere. And I have to make dinner. Cheers.

Posted by: Clovis27 at November 26, 2008 06:22 PM (D+kp1)

142 "You claim that the enlightenment could have occurred in an Islamic nation."

I'm saying it did once, to a lesser degree, and before it happened in Christian nations.

In modern nations, there's a huge difference between Turkey, say, and Saudi Arabia.

You'll never here me say Islam is better than Christianity. You'll never hear me say it's as good as Christianity. I do, however, not believe Christianity is true, but I allowed for the possibility unlikely though it seems.

Either every religion is false or every religion but 1 is false.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:24 PM (hawOV)

143 * Obviously it got decisively stamped out after occurring.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:25 PM (hawOV)

144 from comments at Rantburg.com:
All hostages at Nariman house are dead.
Victims were Indian Jews and Israelis.
by John Frum, a good source

Posted by: Frank G at November 26, 2008 06:25 PM (P0rQD)

145 That sucks, Frank G.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:27 PM (hawOV)

146

I realize this is all going over your head.

If it makes you sleep better at night thinking that to be the case, be my guest. The truth only smiles...

Posted by: Additional Blond Agent at November 26, 2008 06:27 PM (PMGbu)

147 "The truth only smiles..."

It does indeed. Obviously good and evil describe a certain phenomena, and brave vs. afraid describe another.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:29 PM (hawOV)

148

watch out for those methodist suicide bombers!

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 06:29 PM (J7EkY)

149 and those lutheran's too. Shouting "Great is Beer" as they attack!

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 06:30 PM (J7EkY)

150 There we go.
Zaine Vergee on CNN just said this is because India is an ally of the US, and young muslim men in India resent that. So basically it's our fault.

Posted by: MayBee at November 26, 2008 06:32 PM (dwBUY)

151 "Zaine Vergee on CNN just said this is because India is an ally of the US, and young muslim men in India resent that."

I don't think CNN gets this democracy thing either.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:33 PM (hawOV)

152 oh noooo an anglican truck bomb!

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 06:35 PM (J7EkY)

153 "noooo an anglican truck bomb!"

No one has made that point.

Except, arguably, Nicole #77.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:36 PM (hawOV)

154

Don't overlook those extemist Baptist and their devious cake bombs!

Posted by: havedash at November 26, 2008 06:37 PM (guFrH)

155 "Zaine Vergee on CNN just said this is because India is an ally of the US, and young muslim men in India resent that."

Ah, a late entrant in this year's 'Most Ignorant Woman in the World' contest. I have to say I like her chances of taking home the top prize.

Posted by: DrewM. at November 26, 2008 06:37 PM (hlYel)

156 Israel launches attack on India author: David Israeli Gunmen have targeted nine locations in south Mumbai, including two luxury hotels and a train station. A state spokesman put the death toll in the attacks at 78. Gunmen have taken over the Taj Mahal Hotel and Hotel Oberoi and are holding guests hostage on multiple floors, a Mumbai police spokesman says. One witness told local reporters gunmen had tried to find only Muslims to kill.

India has suffered a number of attacks from Israel in recent years, including a string of bombs that ripped through packed Mumbai commuter trains and platforms during rush hour in July 2006. About 209 people were killed in that attack.

Jesus wept it was the Jooos!

Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 06:38 PM (GqpEk)

157 154 forgot the Baptists... dang it

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 06:39 PM (J7EkY)

158 the jooos of course ... it's always them ... just like 9/11 ... where are the truthers?????

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 06:40 PM (J7EkY)

159

this is because India is an ally of the US, and young muslim men in India resent that."

Right. There have never been muslims resentful towards India before they allied with the US. Nope. Never happended. NEver.

Posted by: Mr. Happy at November 26, 2008 06:43 PM (/YM8H)

160

Just my opinion, but "civilization" has brought forth the mentality that we are now too "civilized" to deal with these savages in the only way that would truly defend and preserve our way of life. This savage death cult of islam must be totally scrubbed from this planet if we are to survive. There can be no co-existence. Those who believe so have not taken the time or effort to study what the koran truly teaches. Islam is to be dominate - period. If we can't peacefully co-exist, then what are our options? Submit or choose to wipe these midevel savages off the face of the earth. Which will it be? Yeah, I'm extreme!

Posted by: havedash at November 26, 2008 06:55 PM (guFrH)

161

Posted by: havedash at November 26, 2008 06:55 PM (guFrH)

Yeah, reluctantly that is also my opinion.

Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 07:00 PM (GqpEk)

162 Hi is this a blog about religion or a blog about the attacks in India?

Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 07:02 PM (XWkks)

163 Hi is this a blog about religion or a blog about the attacks in India?

Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 07:02 PM (XWkks)

There ain't much difference is there? Talk about a terrorist attack, or Islam. Same subject.

Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 07:04 PM (GqpEk)

164 Hot air has alot of updates including one report of 900 injured. Another says total attack force may be up to 100. Directs people to Roggio of Long War Journal as he talks about ISI involvement

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 07:04 PM (J7EkY)

165 160

sad but true. Well put really. Let the war begin. Lets start with Iran!

Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 07:05 PM (XWkks)

166 "Just my opinion, but "civilization" has brought forth the mentality that we are now too "civilized" to deal with these savages in the only way that would truly defend and preserve our way of life. This savage death cult of islam must be totally scrubbed from this planet if we are to survive."

Well, perhaps that explains why Islam is now the most populace religion on the planet, and their adherents are filled with purpose, drive, and energy?

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 07:07 PM (hawOV)

167 possibility ISI involvement I should say

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 07:07 PM (J7EkY)

168 purpose, drive and energy? I would say hate, pride and intolerance. Yeah pretty motivating. And destructive.

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 07:09 PM (J7EkY)

169 DrewM,

It may or may not help BJP. They are a right wing party, and good on national security, but their leadership is currently not very impressive. Although I favor BJP, ofcourse I would rather see an end to terrorism than see they getting a political advantage out of it. But Congress really is lax on national security because they rely on Muslim votes and Muslims in India sadly do not like the Govt to take a tougher line on terrorism.

BTW, folks. Please cut it out with the discussions about Christianity etc. This thread is about terrorism (Islamic, as it appears), not theology. Maybe we can have an everyday overnight thread where you guys can shout at each other.

Posted by: Tushar at November 26, 2008 07:14 PM (PTWes)

170 Ok a correspondent was thinking up to 100 suspects, so no confirmation on size of attack force. I hate the word "suspects" because it's used in the realm of crime and law enforcement. This was not a crime, but an act of war.

Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 07:17 PM (J7EkY)

171

#62 and Christoph's previous post, and the one elaborating his:

Considering we need to go through Pakistan to supply Afghanistan, then it will not mean war. But it may mean some very exuberant arm-twisting when it comes to freedom to act in the FATA. If this isn't a strike caused by our Hellfiring in the FATA; if so, then the stakes just got raised and maybe some Phantom drones ought to be deployed. Pain can be escalated.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the 'collateral damage' from those Hellfire strikes took out some ISI boys too.

Posted by: Mikey NTH at November 26, 2008 07:17 PM (TUWci)

172 No quarrels with your last, Wolverine, but the fact remains Islam topped Christianity in number of adherents a couple years back and a lot of Christianity's energy appears to be dissipated. Not in every church, but in many.

Tushar, there's no understanding of Islamic terrorism without a discussion of these issues. This is largely a war between Islam and other religions. Islam is a war-cult among other things.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 07:19 PM (hawOV)

173 "Although I favor BJP, ofcourse I would rather see an end to terrorism than see they getting a political advantage out of it."

Well, who wouldn't?

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 07:21 PM (hawOV)

174 168 purpose, drive and energy? I would say hate, pride and intolerance. Yeah pretty motivating. And destructive. I would add that islam is now officially a "protected class". If can't even insult islam, then how can we foster the mentality and concensus to fight it? GW Bush has done a lot to protect us, but I got a huge chill up my back when he stood before us immediately after 9/11 to harp about the "peaceful religion of islam". I lost a little faith in our ability to win this war after that. We cannot fight with one hand behind our back, prohibitted to even call the enemy by name, or insult them. Simply incredible...When did we step through the looking glass without even realizing it?

Posted by: havedash at November 26, 2008 07:30 PM (guFrH)

175 "GW Bush has done a lot to protect us, but I got a huge chill up my back when he stood before us immediately after 9/11 to harp about the "peaceful religion of islam". I lost a little faith in our ability to win this war after that."

I lost a whole lot of faith, and for the same reason.

I believe we're fighting a delaying action. If we can keep our culture alive long enough for Islam to moderate itself. I'm not optimistic. It took at least 1500 years for Christianity to do the same, and it was a far less aggressive theology.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 07:49 PM (hawOV)

176

For those who think this terrible attack was AQ because of the size and co-ordination.. you better think twice. It does take anything at all to attack at the same time.

Unfortunate, now a days who do not know if your muslim friend or neighbor is a nationalist sympathizer, islamic terrorists or a AQ supporter?

Anyone recall the stories of the Japanese Americans during the war???.........uhmmmmmmmm

Posted by: D at November 26, 2008 07:52 PM (+gClJ)

177

Anyone recall the stories of the Japanese Americans during the war???.........uhmmmmmmmm

Posted by: D at November 26, 2008 07:52 PM (+gClJ)

Japanese Americans had no part in the Pearl Harbor attacks. American Muslims have served with AQ against American forces and helped terrorism overseas.........uhmmmmmmmm.

Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 08:01 PM (GqpEk)

178 D, al Qaeda was always a loose conglomeration of networks. They could have been local, have another name they go by, and be al Queda.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 08:02 PM (hawOV)

179 For those who think this terrible attack was AQ because of the size and co-ordination.. you better think twice. It does take anything at all to attack at the same time.

Have you ever tried to arrange a weekend trip with a bunch of friends? It's not that easy.

I'm not saying these guys are Navy SEALS but they've trained and coordinated this very well and that doesn't just happen. It takes time and resources to do this.

I bet their are anti-terrorist people all over the world having a very bad night based on what they are seeing.

These guys are shooting up and shutting down India's largest and most prosperous city. They targeted some of the city's most high profile landmarks and decapitated its anti-terror force (perhaps by pure luck but the result is the same).

This is not just some guys from the local mosque or are pissed off. This is bad shit.

Posted by: DrewM. at November 26, 2008 08:10 PM (hlYel)

180 "I'm not saying these guys are Navy SEALS but they've trained and coordinated this very well and that doesn't just happen. It takes time and resources to do this."

Very true. I remember being part of an infantry platoon. This would have stretched, but not exceeded, our capabilities. Even if you trained all the teams separately and their individual functions were straightforward, there is higher level planning in a big way.

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 08:13 PM (hawOV)

181 "They targeted some of the city's most high profile landmarks and decapitated its anti-terror force (perhaps by pure luck but the result is the same)."

It could have been sheer luck. Stranger things have happened in battle. But that's one hell of a coincidence. Nope, I think this was a well planned well run op. I'm not sure, however, what it's strategic goal was and I hope that is thwarted.

Obama got his excellent but pro forma statement out before Bush got his official statement out:

�These coordinated attacks on innocent civilians demonstrate the grave and urgent threat of terrorism. The United States must continue to strengthen our partnerships with India and nations around the world to root out and destroy terrorist networks. We stand with the people of India, whose democracy will prove far more resilient than the hateful ideology that led to these attacks.�

Perhaps Bush was busy helping the Indians get ready to do some rooting out?

Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 08:17 PM (hawOV)

182 I guess the world didn't like Obama that much after all.

Posted by: TallDave at November 26, 2008 08:52 PM (AZmZT)

183 Cristoph, there are hundreds of millions more Christians than Muslims in the world. Apparently, a few months ago Islam surpassed Catholicism in population. I'm sure you're aware that there are Christians who aren't Catholic. I don't appreciate being called out on a point that is extremely easy to find that I'm right about, even if it's pretty irrelevant. You're also quite wrong about Muslim nations being enlightened. Ever. I'm surprised at that misconception.

I think you're a very helpful commenter here, and I don't like that folks give you such a hard time, but your command of the facts is poor on this off-topic issue. I also think your argumentation has been needlessly provacative, but this is ace, where I should expect to be called a cockholster, so I won't bitch about it.

Posted by: Shill at November 27, 2008 02:12 AM (8jYMc)

184 DVD burner for Mac provides an easy and fast way to convert popular video formats (including AVI, MPEG, WMV, DivX, XviD, MP4, DV, VOB, ASF, 3GP, NUT, YUV, H.264/AVC, M4V files to DVD. The DVD Burner Mac could also burn DVD movie onto DVD disk that playable on portable or home DVD player and burn DVD folder or ISO files. No other Mac DVD burner can provide so many formats. DivX to DVD Converter for Mac can not only convert DivX to DVD Mac, but also support convert AVI to DVD, 3GP to DVD, MP4 to DVD, FLV to DVD, MPEG to DVD, WMV to DVD, etc. The DivX to DVD Converter Mac developed only for Mac OS (include Mac OS X 10.5 leopard) burning users. The DivX to DVD converter for Mac can convert all formats like MP4, M4V, MPA, MPG, MPEG, MOV,3GP, 3GP2, FLV, MOV,VOB, DAT, TS, TP, TRP, M2TS, DivX, DivX to DVD on Mac OS. AVI to DVD for Mac, a profeesional but easy-to-use DVD burn software for Mac users, can convert AVI to DVD format on Mac OS X perfectly and quickly. The AVI to DVD Mac not only supports converting AVI to DVD Mac but also supports other popular formats to DVD on Mac, such as MPA, ASF, DIF, H261, YUV, NUT and so on.With the AVI to DVD Mac, you can easily convert and burn AVI files to your DVD and play it on portable or home DVD player.

Posted by: jh at November 27, 2008 03:38 AM (53V9W)

185 Fear not, Larry King has brough on DEEPAK CHOPRA to give his analysis on terrorism:

King: Is it because the war on terrorism really can never be won because the terrorists (inaudible)?

Chopra: Because it�s an oxymoron. It�s an oxymoron, Larry, a war on war, a war on terrorism.

You know, terrorists call mechanized death from 35,000 feet above sea level with a press of a button also terror. We don�t call it that, because our soldiers are wearing uniforms. They don�t see what is happening, and innocent people are being killed. So, you know, terror is a term that you apply to the other.

King: Thanks, Deepak Chopra, as always, extraordinarily enlightening.

End transcript

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