Indian Terror Attack Part II
It was getting a little crazy updating the original thread so here's the latest:
Several upscale hotels (frequented by westerners), a hospital, a train station and a police station were attacked in a coordinated effort that has been going on for about 4 hours and is continuing at the moment. The cities top anti-terrorist cop is dead and several of his top officers are have either been killed or wounded. Broadcast reports say 80 are dead andAmericans and British were targeted and thought to be among the hostages. Benson provided a link to an Indian broadcast network that is live streaming their coverage. "Large blast" reported at Hotel Oberoi. The terrorists were thought to have had a large amount of explosives and the army was on the scene. Not sure what it means yet.
Comments
Posted by: Jody C. at November 26, 2008 04:01 PM (B/Y39)
Prior to this, the terrorists asked for Americans and British subjects, checking their passports.
A terrible situation.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:01 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:02 PM (qzcNU)
1. Boat Bomb for strike at waterfront target
2. Large number of attackers (How did the keep operational security?)
3. Strike at the Police Commanders means a new look at TOC security, and that they had coordinated spotters watching the news crews.
4. Going back to Hostages, thought they had dropped that one.
Posted by: Jean at November 26, 2008 04:02 PM (HVRSA)
On that IBN link, they are showing that the terrorists somehow got a police van and drove down the road shooting people.
MI-5 warned recently about terrorists buying up ambulances on Ebay in the UK.
Posted by: IreneFingIrene at November 26, 2008 04:03 PM (lhxhu)
Posted by: Eleven at November 26, 2008 04:03 PM (7DB+a)
Maybe it's time for us to withdraw from our colony in India.
K
Posted by: Kestrel♠ at November 26, 2008 04:03 PM (0ry+S)
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:04 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:04 PM (qzcNU)
Posted by: LtE113 (MIke in Chicago) at November 26, 2008 04:04 PM (VnwTv)
Posted by: icemike at November 26, 2008 04:05 PM (a7kOz)
Allahpundit at Hot Air and counter-terrorism blog seems to think they may be "a Pakistani jihadi outfit like Lashkar e-Taiba instead of AQ" because they're using so many rifles and not just explosives.
Yet multiple simultaneous attacks is an AQ halmark and they're asking for westerner's passports so I remain unconvinced.
Who knows?
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:06 PM (hawOV)
That was video apparently taken while the shooting was going on. Note the people hitting the ground and looking around in the background.
Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:06 PM (qzcNU)
Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 04:10 PM (GqpEk)
"Just saw where the terrorists hijacked police vehicles & are doing drive-bys. Just happened at a movie theater - the have it on film."
Shite.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:11 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Kestrel♠ at November 26, 2008 04:11 PM (0ry+S)
Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:11 PM (qzcNU)
If you check out comment 2, it doesn't sound good.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:13 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:13 PM (qzcNU)
Posted by: Jean at November 26, 2008 04:15 PM (HVRSA)
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:16 PM (hawOV)
ALSO: Deccan Mujahideen claims responsibility in email.
Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:18 PM (qzcNU)
Posted by: Jean at November 26, 2008 04:19 PM (HVRSA)
Posted by: Jean at November 26, 2008 04:15 PM (HVRSA)
Yeah, thats for sure. I just hope the same thing isn't planned in the US for Thanksgiving. The British IIRC, said something about AQ attempting to get an ambulance, and the guys in India seem to have done something similar. Somali's have been vanishing from the St Paul area, which they thought was for an operation in Somalia. It may be for something closer.
Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 04:19 PM (GqpEk)
Posted by: Ben at November 26, 2008 04:20 PM (rs7M9)
Posted by: IreneFingIrene at November 26, 2008 04:21 PM (lhxhu)
"Mujahideen", of course, refers to a fighter in jihad.
CNN is trying to downplay the Muslim angle, of course. The one reporter is wondering if Hindu extremists could've been involved in the group while another is downplaying the claim of responsibility.
Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:22 PM (qzcNU)
Posted by: Ben at November 26, 2008 04:23 PM (rs7M9)
Lovely.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:23 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: kevlarchick at November 26, 2008 04:24 PM (TNuqz)
Cocksuckers!
That wouldn't be the same network that collaborated with Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath party, would it?
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:24 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 04:29 PM (J7EkY)
Look, Deccan Mujahideen = AQ. It's not like AQ is centralized or anything. Their only business is franchising terror, and the franchising fee is the promise of killing infidels. And Hindus are the bestest infidels to kill of all.
I'm getting really sick of these bastards.
Posted by: Rocketeer at November 26, 2008 04:29 PM (mUWtd)
A city like that, with it's basically idiotic government and cowardly populace and poorly armed police force could be chaotic for weeks under a large assault.
I know this wouldn't happen here in Texas, of course, but wherever it happens, it's a huge problem. As far as I'm concerned, we're all Indians, and we should dramatically escalate the War on Terror in a specific place as a clear reprisal.
Just imagine if Iran gave that enriched Uranium to these guys, who proceeded to attack London and set off a couple of dirty nukes where panicking people would congregate when fleeing... It's not hard to get very concerned.
Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 04:30 PM (8jYMc)
Posted by: Tushar at November 26, 2008 04:30 PM (PTWes)
memo to self - do not leave house for anything without glock and back up
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 04:31 PM (J7EkY)
That's my thinking. It's one of the reasons I pointed out on the last thread that Al Quaeda's attacks tend to be coordinated within a country... not internationally... probably due to their own organization for OpSec reasons.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:31 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 04:31 PM (8jYMc)
Considering they were targeting Americans, if Pakistan was involved, wouldn't that qualify as an act of war?
Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:32 PM (qzcNU)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 04:33 PM (J7EkY)
No.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:33 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: IC at November 26, 2008 04:36 PM (jZNCU)
Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:36 PM (qzcNU)
Posted by: Barack Obama at November 26, 2008 04:37 PM (waYsO)
Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:38 PM (qzcNU)
Posted by: Joe Biden at November 26, 2008 04:39 PM (U0dI+)
Considering they were targeting Americans, if Pakistan was involved, wouldn't that qualify as an act of war?
Contra Christoph, it most certainly would be - provided ISI ever fessed up publicly, or we could effectively prove it absent that.
Which means, no.
Posted by: Rocketeer at November 26, 2008 04:41 PM (mUWtd)
This type of terror attacks will make it's way again to the USA, CANADA, BRITIAN, and other allies soil.
Drop a few bombs... yes innocent people will die but maybe seems this maybe the only way to battle terrorism. Sorry, but here will always be "collateral damage" .....drop some bombs !
Posted by: D at November 26, 2008 04:41 PM (jB0IR)
These Pakistani scumbag terrorists want to attack India because of its friendship with the US and Israel. Once Obama starts deploying troops to Waziristan, Osama and his dipshit coward militia will scatter around like cockroaches.
Posted by: vince at November 26, 2008 04:42 PM (xqzGc)
Posted by: Eleven at November 26, 2008 04:43 PM (7DB+a)
Posted by: ThomasD at November 26, 2008 04:44 PM (21H5U)
Posted by: Rocks at November 26, 2008 04:44 PM (Q1lie)
The police were good at catching criminals and people from the slums who readily gave confessions to save their families. If the new type of terrorist is recruited in internet chat rooms & air conditioned malls then the Indian police is severely disadvantaged.
Ultimately, politicians have to take responsibility for legitimizing violence and communal riots as part of their sleazy 'vote bank' politics.
Posted by: vivek at November 26, 2008 04:45 PM (9hFg9)
Posted by: Tushar at November 26, 2008 04:45 PM (PTWes)
Posted by: IC at November 26, 2008 04:46 PM (jZNCU)
9 terrorists arrested? Why bother?
It's Singh's India, not Obama's America. Think of it as "pre-torture-and-execution."
Posted by: Rocketeer at November 26, 2008 04:47 PM (mUWtd)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 04:47 PM (J7EkY)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 04:48 PM (J7EkY)
It is unfortunate that some people will paint all muslim with the same brush...just wait.
These muslim terrorists do not deserve a bullet in their heads... they deserve a slow and painful death. Cut their limbs off.
I hope the USA and allies start some serious shit over there and get these bastards
Posted by: D at November 26, 2008 04:48 PM (jB0IR)
Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 04:49 PM (GqpEk)
Posted by: Benson at November 26, 2008 04:51 PM (qzcNU)
"Contra Christoph, it most certainly would be - provided ISI ever fessed up publicly, or we could effectively prove it absent that.
"Which means, no."
That's what I meant.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 04:52 PM (hawOV)
The BBC published a picture of one of the attackers, it looked as if he may have been wearing a rakhi (symobilic string given by sisters to brothers on rakhi day) which could indicate he may be Hindu!
Posted by: K at November 26, 2008 04:52 PM (C7yWR)
Posted by: IC at November 26, 2008 04:53 PM (jZNCU)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 04:53 PM (J7EkY)
How did they retain their operational security with this large a number of participants? This is really quite troubling.
Posted by: Amy at November 26, 2008 04:53 PM (U0dI+)
Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 04:55 PM (8jYMc)
I hope Inida kills all those SOB's. Sounds like an al-qaida operation, and probably meant to be the start of a new terror campaign. Not just India, I bet the US AND Britain are next. I wonder what the One will really do, if anything.
Posted by: BattleofthePyramids at November 26, 2008 04:55 PM (tk9fc)
I imagine the op sec had to be something interesting. Did they keep all the terrorists in a different country and then bring them to india at the last second? I have no idea.
Had this happened a month ago, Mccain would be the next president.
Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 05:00 PM (8jYMc)
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:01 PM (hawOV)
Fucking Bastards, didn't even spare hospitals, these lot ought to be shot in the testicles.
The Indian government must act, they have far too much to loose from all this terrorist activitiy. Since 9/11 India as suffered the most at the hands of these sister fucking terrorists!
Posted by: K at November 26, 2008 05:04 PM (C7yWR)
Posted by: Paid for by the Justice For Kat-Mo Committe at November 26, 2008 05:04 PM (0a8xk)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 05:05 PM (J7EkY)
Terrible terrible terrible day. A day before Thanksgiving. I'm thankfuul for my clock 9mm and my 12 gauge. At least I can feel someone secure in the fact that a lot of americans are packin. If something like this happened here it wouldnt be as bad me thinks.
Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 05:05 PM (XWkks)
I will be paying close attention to the information that comes out... I think this is a sad day for Indian intelligence.
Posted by: Amy at November 26, 2008 05:05 PM (U0dI+)
Posted by: Jean at November 26, 2008 05:06 PM (HVRSA)
Posted by: Nicole at November 26, 2008 05:06 PM (E7ZSg)
A friend of mine who is from India says this is the end of the Congress Party. There are apparently elections in the next 6 months or so and he thinks this will play to the benefit off the BJP.
Thoughts?
Posted by: DrewM. at November 26, 2008 05:06 PM (hlYel)
72 Hopefully the Indians kill the majority of them and those they capture they eventually execute.
Hopefully they torture them a bit. Not sure how the Indians do it but I hope they do torture them
Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 05:07 PM (XWkks)
Posted by: Jean at November 26, 2008 05:10 PM (HVRSA)
Posted by: minnie at November 26, 2008 05:10 PM (zplc6)
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:11 PM (hawOV)
9 terrorists arrested? Why bother?
The News has already said that the Indians are using “enhanced questioning techniques” to dtermine if more acts are coming.
They can shoot them after the questioning.
Posted by: Vic at November 26, 2008 05:12 PM (Qd7GC)
Posted by: truth_teller at November 26, 2008 05:16 PM (2OWVj)
Posted by: slickdpdx at November 26, 2008 05:17 PM (RIdwM)
You'd have to ask Tushar. I'm ignorant on this stuff. My parent are from there, but I was born here.
Posted by: IreneFingIrene at November 26, 2008 05:18 PM (A9rtY)
This sounds very coordinated.
I think Mr. Obama has his test; if they have captured American hostages, we will see them either being thrown off the roof of the hotel or being used to demand ransom.
Politics of fear? Is terrorism real enough yet?
Posted by: PJ at November 26, 2008 05:19 PM (FG8qn)
Posted by: truth_teller at November 26, 2008 05:20 PM (2OWVj)
Posted by: w_boodle at November 26, 2008 05:21 PM (AN4pk)
No (real) negotiation. The anti-terrorist forces should attack (when ready).
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:23 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 05:24 PM (XWkks)
Posted by: IC at November 26, 2008 05:25 PM (jZNCU)
Indeed, Christoph.
Posted by: Max Power at November 26, 2008 05:26 PM (q177U)
Mike Baker is on Fox talking about it. Love that guy.
Posted by: Shannon at November 26, 2008 05:26 PM (q0Z3p)
90 No (real) negotiation. The anti-terrorist forces should attack (when ready).
true that... these guys don't seem to care much for human life so I doubt those hostages have much hope. Just go in and take them out quickly and efficiently
Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 05:27 PM (XWkks)
I just told a couple of people that I hope to God it's AQ (and given the level of coordination and the attack on landmark sites, I think it is). If this gets tied back to the ISI, it's war. And where that ends, no one knows.
Posted by: DrewM. at November 26, 2008 05:29 PM (hlYel)
Has anyone heard of Ali Sina? his website faithfreedom.org this man is an ex muslim, who one day read the Koran and realised that it is a terrorist manual in the disguise of a holy book.
Check his site out to understand Islamic Fundamentalism, he argues against the age old saying "its not the religion but the people". Islam is the evil ideology and the terrorists who you see reading the Koran when committing these evil acts are the true muslims!
Posted by: K at November 26, 2008 05:32 PM (C7yWR)
Just want to pass that along. Happy Thanksgiving! Pack extra magazines!
Posted by: Clovis27 at November 26, 2008 05:37 PM (D+kp1)
Posted by: truth_teller at November 26, 2008 05:39 PM (2OWVj)
Dude, we should be able to take out their nuclear arsenal pretty quick. Piece of cake. We'll be greeted as liberators.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:41 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Nicole at November 26, 2008 05:06 PM (E7ZSg)
I think you have bought into the 'Islam is a religion of peace' bullshit. I mean since when has that been true? 1,400 years of history and we see no evidence of it. Isn't 14 centuries enough to come to the radical conclusion that Islam is exactly what the Muslims say it is?
Omar Bakri Mohammad's followers in the U.K. held a conference in support of the imposition of Islamic law. A rare moment of clarity:"Women need to be covered up, men lashed for fornication [outside marriage] and hands cut off for theft and breaking Sharia law," he said.
When a woman in a burkha asked how he could justify this when Islam was supposed to be a religion of peace, the crowd mocked her. But it was Choudary who rose to put her in her place. "Islam is not a religion of peace," he said. "It is a religion of submission. We need to submit to the will of Allah."
Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 05:41 PM (GqpEk)
If Pakistani leadership were to ditch ISI, Zardari and Co would end up with Mrs Bhutto!! The ISI is the most powerful institution in Pakistan!
Posted by: K at November 26, 2008 05:42 PM (C7yWR)
Posted by: slickdpdx at November 26, 2008 05:42 PM (RIdwM)
Smoke dope much?
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:42 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Amy at November 26, 2008 05:43 PM (U0dI+)
Posted by: K at November 26, 2008 05:44 PM (C7yWR)
Posted by: Captain Hate at November 26, 2008 05:45 PM (m2sQh)
At best, only 1 religion out of all of them isn't false. At worst, all are false.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:46 PM (hawOV)
Uh huh.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:47 PM (hawOV)
It's truly amazing that people buy into this horrible religion. It's more obviously ridiculous than any other. All that talk about not worshiping idols, and yet their Mecca is the center of idol worship and they worship a big rock in the middle of it.
Sadly, it's truly one of the most evangelical religions out there. It gains supporters all the time. Until the world is educated about how sick this crap is, we won't win the war on terror.
Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 05:49 PM (8jYMc)
Damn, Nicole, your comment #77 was just stupid.
Sez the guy who parroted Bill Maher's comments about the 9/11 terrorists being brave. Keep 'em coming, Chris...
Posted by: Additional Blond Agent at November 26, 2008 05:49 PM (PMGbu)
Posted by: Captain Hate at November 26, 2008 05:50 PM (m2sQh)
Even if Christianity is 'false', you have to admit it's been a huge force for good. From civil rights to fighting communist athiests...
It's the religions like Islam that are barbaric that are the problem. I wish these folks would all worship Rainbow Bright.
I also have no idea where Nicole gets her accusation that Hindus are responsible. They aren't and it's pretty obvious. Hindus targeting the British, Israelis, and Americans? That's propaganda from our enemies at CNN. They know they are covering for killers, and as far as I'm concerned, they have blood on their hands today.
Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 05:53 PM (8jYMc)
They were evil. And displayed obvious physical courage.
Neville Chamberlain was a good man. But literally shook in Hitler's presence when Hitler mentioned war.
Hitler had moments of both bravery and cowardice (most people do). During WW1, he volunteered for service and did his job bravely as a runner. During the Beer Hall Putsch, he ran for cover when shots were fired, causing his men to run. Then he started WW2 and murdered millions upon millions of people.
Bravery and goodness are simply different things.
Evil people are often brave. Taking over the world isn't the act of a coward, is it, if you think about it logically? If you're even capable of thinking about it logically.
I think bravery is a virtue, but moral decency a far higher one. Bravery to my mind only becomes a great virtue when used in a good way.
It's like "skill". It describes a certain thing -- usually a good thing, sometimes not. Nazi generals may have been skilled, but they were invading free democracies and killing folks for no good reason.
I realize this is all going over your head.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:57 PM (hawOV)
It's been a mixed force.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 05:58 PM (hawOV)
How would you describe it as a mixed force? It has done more good for the world then anyone one person or country.
K
Posted by: Kestrel♠ at November 26, 2008 06:00 PM (0ry+S)
Posted by: Clovis27 at November 26, 2008 06:01 PM (D+kp1)
A.k.a., non-Christians -- however much Christians falsely tried to claim them as their own.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:02 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:02 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: slickdpdx
Jews! They're everywhere! lol
Posted by: Paid for by the Justice For Kat-Mo Committe at November 26, 2008 06:03 PM (0a8xk)
Christianity is, by far, the largest religion on the planet. Of course many bad things have been done in its name. So yeah, mixed. About 99.9999999999999% good, but mixed.
It's sad that people think this religion can be compared to Islam (and I can't have a religion discussion with a devout Christian without going both parties going nuts, so don't think I'm just cheering on my side).
Christianity is a fundamentally amazing aspect of the human race. It's about forgiveness and kindness. It's persistent. It's ended many evils and is the foundation for democratic philosophy and modern civilization.
but yeah, they had the crusades and the inquisition. What makes Christianity significant is that it's a thinking man's religion, and such problems were reformed from within the religion. That's why, in the past few centuries (which frankly is all that's relevant to what the religion is today), Christianity has been almost entirely a force for good.
Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 06:03 PM (8jYMc)
Posted by: Clovis27 at November 26, 2008 06:04 PM (D+kp1)
Until the world is educated about how sick this crap is, we won't win the war on terror.
And I'm sure our new messiah will lead the way. So what if he thinks the muslim call to prayer is one of the prettiest sounds on earth?
(For the record, I think it sounds like Satan ringing the dinner bell)
Posted by: TiredWench at November 26, 2008 06:04 PM (VVOw6)
And its also done harm. Therefore mixed.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:04 PM (hawOV)
But consider Islam. Can it be reformed? Can the books be reinterpreted? I don't think it's possible.
Christianity can be reformed... and that's a big part of why it's so important.
Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 06:05 PM (8jYMc)
Not really Christoph! I will be happy to enage in a debate as long as this doesn't descend into hurling school yard taunts back and forth.
The new Pakistani civilian leadersip barely escaped assasination the day the new Pakistani President was sworn in just a few months ago. The terrorists levelled a Marriott hotel in the heart of Islamabad, a hotel also frequented by westerners.
I believe there is a convergence of inrterests among the Pakistani civilian leadership, India, and U.S. And in the case of the civilian leadership in Pakistan this is purely an issue of survival. I don't mean political, but physical. What I am suggesting is not out of the realm of possibility.
Posted by: truth_teller at November 26, 2008 06:07 PM (2OWVj)
Posted by: slickdpdx at November 26, 2008 06:07 PM (RIdwM)
It cannot. It only was possible in a society like a Christian one.
You can't claim I'm wrong because those creating democracy were not citing the bible to do so. Christianity was compatible with civilization, which itself is a big deal.
Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 06:07 PM (8jYMc)
It's easy for me to answer that question with example after example, although I only need one example to carry the point.
However, it's pointless for me to do so. You're convinced of Christianity's truthfulness and goodness so any example I give will turn into a long debate. You will use circular and illogical reasoning and nothing will persuade you. In the end, it will come down to exhortations of faith, the opposite of reason.
That's why I phrased my original comment that "at best" 1 religion isn't false. Hey... maybe yours is it.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:07 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Kestrel♠ at November 26, 2008 06:08 PM (0ry+S)
Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 06:09 PM (8jYMc)
Christoph,Reference your "mixed force" analogy:
All religions have done harm. I am not a fan of any religion. But Islam as it stands today, as it is practiced and interpreted, especially the Saudi version backed by Saudi money is not a force for good. It is an especially virulent version that causes more harm than good. It is naive and dangerous to equate this Islam with other religions of today.
Posted by: truth_teller at November 26, 2008 06:10 PM (2OWVj)
On the other hand, it seems to me that it is the correct interpretation and application of Islam that is harmful.
Posted by: Clovis27 at November 26, 2008 06:11 PM (D+kp1)
Yes, but in a different form (everything in history only happens once one way).
Muslims were at one time far more mathematically advanced than Christian nations and probably had more art, science, and so forth. Atheists can be or not be enlightened, but there is nothing in particular about atheism that rejects knowledge or directs it down certain pathways.
Christianity is less oppressive and violent than Islam, since it largely rejected the huge genocidal and war rapist violence of the Old Testatment Jews, who were largely pacified by the Romans. Even monogomous marriage is a Roman institution.
There are differences. I'm not saying Islam leads to western society because that isn't true. I'm not saying Christianity is as violent as Islam because that isn't true. I'm saying I think Christianity is a mixed bag, like pretty much everything else, ever.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:11 PM (hawOV)
I know. I'm saying that has been harmful at times, but Christianity is as well, at times, to a degree.
"Do you have an example of a Christian doctrine that is harmful?"
Sure. But it's pointless to mention. If one starts from viewpoint Christianity is true and the word of God, then all examples to the contrary are futility defined.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:15 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: truth_teller at November 26, 2008 06:16 PM (2OWVj)
Humans were killed of many religions and it's a tragedy. They were certainly killed as a result of an ideology from the most violent large-scale religion on the planet.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:16 PM (hawOV)
I wouldn't have a hope of citing any such historical record. No, I couldn't do it and I don't think anyone else could either.
However, if one used the Bible, it would be easy.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:17 PM (hawOV)
Among civilization's religions, Christianity gets the blue ribbon for its presence around and within progress.
You claim that the enlightenment could have occurred in an Islamic nation. I certainly hope you're right, because it's those people who have to change in order for the world to be free of global terrorism.
But unlike the long multi authored and impossible to perfectly source bible, the Koran cannot be changed with the times. None of its verses can be ignored or given an asterisk. The religion of today is precisely the one of 1400 years ago. That's the core problem with Islam... it cannot be enlightened.
Christianity is so mushy that the crap has been dropped ages and ages ago. It's conformed and the people around it were much more free to do good.
Perhaps I'm just pessimistic, but looking at the bastards taking the sick from hospitals as hostages, and flying planes into towers of accountants, and knowing their religion has never changed, I am thinking it's a specific aspect of Islam that is the problem...
Like I said, most Christians I meet find my views on religion to be a huge problem. I'm not cheering for my side... just history. The thinkers who created French and American democracy weren't Athiests or Muslims.
Posted by: Shill at November 26, 2008 06:20 PM (8jYMc)
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:21 PM (hawOV)
But you are right, we may get nowhere. And I have to make dinner. Cheers.
Posted by: Clovis27 at November 26, 2008 06:22 PM (D+kp1)
I'm saying it did once, to a lesser degree, and before it happened in Christian nations.
In modern nations, there's a huge difference between Turkey, say, and Saudi Arabia.
You'll never here me say Islam is better than Christianity. You'll never hear me say it's as good as Christianity. I do, however, not believe Christianity is true, but I allowed for the possibility unlikely though it seems.
Either every religion is false or every religion but 1 is false.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:24 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:25 PM (hawOV)
All hostages at Nariman house are dead.
Victims were Indian Jews and Israelis.
by John Frum, a good source
Posted by: Frank G at November 26, 2008 06:25 PM (P0rQD)
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:27 PM (hawOV)
I realize this is all going over your head.
If it makes you sleep better at night thinking that to be the case, be my guest. The truth only smiles...
Posted by: Additional Blond Agent at November 26, 2008 06:27 PM (PMGbu)
It does indeed. Obviously good and evil describe a certain phenomena, and brave vs. afraid describe another.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:29 PM (hawOV)
watch out for those methodist suicide bombers!
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 06:29 PM (J7EkY)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 06:30 PM (J7EkY)
Zaine Vergee on CNN just said this is because India is an ally of the US, and young muslim men in India resent that. So basically it's our fault.
Posted by: MayBee at November 26, 2008 06:32 PM (dwBUY)
I don't think CNN gets this democracy thing either.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:33 PM (hawOV)
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Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 06:36 PM (hawOV)
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Posted by: havedash at November 26, 2008 06:37 PM (guFrH)
Ah, a late entrant in this year's 'Most Ignorant Woman in the World' contest. I have to say I like her chances of taking home the top prize.
Posted by: DrewM. at November 26, 2008 06:37 PM (hlYel)
India has suffered a number of attacks from Israel in recent years, including a string of bombs that ripped through packed Mumbai commuter trains and platforms during rush hour in July 2006. About 209 people were killed in that attack.
Jesus wept it was the Jooos!
Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 06:38 PM (GqpEk)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 06:39 PM (J7EkY)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 06:40 PM (J7EkY)
this is because India is an ally of the US, and young muslim men in India resent that."
Right. There have never been muslims resentful towards India before they allied with the US. Nope. Never happended. NEver.
Posted by: Mr. Happy at November 26, 2008 06:43 PM (/YM8H)
Just my opinion, but "civilization" has brought forth the mentality that we are now too "civilized" to deal with these savages in the only way that would truly defend and preserve our way of life. This savage death cult of islam must be totally scrubbed from this planet if we are to survive. There can be no co-existence. Those who believe so have not taken the time or effort to study what the koran truly teaches. Islam is to be dominate - period. If we can't peacefully co-exist, then what are our options? Submit or choose to wipe these midevel savages off the face of the earth. Which will it be? Yeah, I'm extreme!
Posted by: havedash at November 26, 2008 06:55 PM (guFrH)
Just my opinion, but "civilization" has brought forth the mentality that we are now too "civilized" to deal with these savages in the only way that would truly defend and preserve our way of life. This savage death cult of islam must be totally scrubbed from this planet if we are to survive. There can be no co-existence. Those who believe so have not taken the time or effort to study what the koran truly teaches. Islam is to be dominate - period. If we can't peacefully co-exist, then what are our options? Submit or choose to wipe these midevel savages off the face of the earth. Which will it be? Yeah, I'm extreme!
Posted by: havedash at November 26, 2008 06:55 PM (guFrH)
Yeah, reluctantly that is also my opinion.
Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 07:00 PM (GqpEk)
Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 07:02 PM (XWkks)
Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 07:02 PM (XWkks)
There ain't much difference is there? Talk about a terrorist attack, or Islam. Same subject.
Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 07:04 PM (GqpEk)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 07:04 PM (J7EkY)
Just my opinion, but "civilization" has brought forth the mentality that we are now too "civilized" to deal with these savages in the only way that would truly defend and preserve our way of life. This savage death cult of islam must be totally scrubbed from this planet if we are to survive. There can be no co-existence. Those who believe so have not taken the time or effort to study what the koran truly teaches. Islam is to be dominate - period. If we can't peacefully co-exist, then what are our options? Submit or choose to wipe these midevel savages off the face of the earth. Which will it be? Yeah, I'm extreme!
sad but true. Well put really. Let the war begin. Lets start with Iran!
Posted by: Jonathan at November 26, 2008 07:05 PM (XWkks)
Well, perhaps that explains why Islam is now the most populace religion on the planet, and their adherents are filled with purpose, drive, and energy?
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 07:07 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 07:07 PM (J7EkY)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 07:09 PM (J7EkY)
It may or may not help BJP. They are a right wing party, and good on national security, but their leadership is currently not very impressive. Although I favor BJP, ofcourse I would rather see an end to terrorism than see they getting a political advantage out of it. But Congress really is lax on national security because they rely on Muslim votes and Muslims in India sadly do not like the Govt to take a tougher line on terrorism.
BTW, folks. Please cut it out with the discussions about Christianity etc. This thread is about terrorism (Islamic, as it appears), not theology. Maybe we can have an everyday overnight thread where you guys can shout at each other.
Posted by: Tushar at November 26, 2008 07:14 PM (PTWes)
Posted by: Wolverine at November 26, 2008 07:17 PM (J7EkY)
#62 and Christoph's previous post, and the one elaborating his:
Considering we need to go through Pakistan to supply Afghanistan, then it will not mean war. But it may mean some very exuberant arm-twisting when it comes to freedom to act in the FATA. If this isn't a strike caused by our Hellfiring in the FATA; if so, then the stakes just got raised and maybe some Phantom drones ought to be deployed. Pain can be escalated.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the 'collateral damage' from those Hellfire strikes took out some ISI boys too.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at November 26, 2008 07:17 PM (TUWci)
Tushar, there's no understanding of Islamic terrorism without a discussion of these issues. This is largely a war between Islam and other religions. Islam is a war-cult among other things.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 07:19 PM (hawOV)
Well, who wouldn't?
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 07:21 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: havedash at November 26, 2008 07:30 PM (guFrH)
I lost a whole lot of faith, and for the same reason.
I believe we're fighting a delaying action. If we can keep our culture alive long enough for Islam to moderate itself. I'm not optimistic. It took at least 1500 years for Christianity to do the same, and it was a far less aggressive theology.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 07:49 PM (hawOV)
For those who think this terrible attack was AQ because of the size and co-ordination.. you better think twice. It does take anything at all to attack at the same time.
Unfortunate, now a days who do not know if your muslim friend or neighbor is a nationalist sympathizer, islamic terrorists or a AQ supporter?
Anyone recall the stories of the Japanese Americans during the war???.........uhmmmmmmmm
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Anyone recall the stories of the Japanese Americans during the war???.........uhmmmmmmmm
Posted by: D at November 26, 2008 07:52 PM (+gClJ)
Japanese Americans had no part in the Pearl Harbor attacks. American Muslims have served with AQ against American forces and helped terrorism overseas.........uhmmmmmmmm.
Posted by: Travis at November 26, 2008 08:01 PM (GqpEk)
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 08:02 PM (hawOV)
Have you ever tried to arrange a weekend trip with a bunch of friends? It's not that easy.
I'm not saying these guys are Navy SEALS but they've trained and coordinated this very well and that doesn't just happen. It takes time and resources to do this.
I bet their are anti-terrorist people all over the world having a very bad night based on what they are seeing.
These guys are shooting up and shutting down India's largest and most prosperous city. They targeted some of the city's most high profile landmarks and decapitated its anti-terror force (perhaps by pure luck but the result is the same).
This is not just some guys from the local mosque or are pissed off. This is bad shit.
Posted by: DrewM. at November 26, 2008 08:10 PM (hlYel)
Very true. I remember being part of an infantry platoon. This would have stretched, but not exceeded, our capabilities. Even if you trained all the teams separately and their individual functions were straightforward, there is higher level planning in a big way.
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 08:13 PM (hawOV)
It could have been sheer luck. Stranger things have happened in battle. But that's one hell of a coincidence. Nope, I think this was a well planned well run op. I'm not sure, however, what it's strategic goal was and I hope that is thwarted.
Obama got his excellent but pro forma statement out before Bush got his official statement out:
“These coordinated attacks on innocent civilians demonstrate the grave and urgent threat of terrorism. The United States must continue to strengthen our partnerships with India and nations around the world to root out and destroy terrorist networks. We stand with the people of India, whose democracy will prove far more resilient than the hateful ideology that led to these attacks.”
Perhaps Bush was busy helping the Indians get ready to do some rooting out?
Posted by: Christoph at November 26, 2008 08:17 PM (hawOV)
Posted by: TallDave at November 26, 2008 08:52 PM (AZmZT)
I think you're a very helpful commenter here, and I don't like that folks give you such a hard time, but your command of the facts is poor on this off-topic issue. I also think your argumentation has been needlessly provacative, but this is ace, where I should expect to be called a cockholster, so I won't bitch about it.
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Posted by: jh at November 27, 2008 03:38 AM (53V9W)
King: Is it because the war on terrorism really can never be won because the terrorists (inaudible)?
Chopra: Because it’s an oxymoron. It’s an oxymoron, Larry, a war on war, a war on terrorism.
You know, terrorists call mechanized death from 35,000 feet above sea level with a press of a button also terror. We don’t call it that, because our soldiers are wearing uniforms. They don’t see what is happening, and innocent people are being killed. So, you know, terror is a term that you apply to the other.
King: Thanks, Deepak Chopra, as always, extraordinarily enlightening.
End transcript
More from that interview at:
http://www.mikefrancesa.com/wordpress/?p=1981
Thank you Ace for allowing me to link to my friend's blog, this guy Chopra is a charlatan who just said that terrorists can easily say that U.S. soldiers and the U.S. military engage in terrorism.
What a punk this Chopra is.
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It's pretty pathetic when the only Indian Larry King can find is that phony Chopra.
Posted by: Remember the Kat-Mo! at November 27, 2008 11:53 AM (falCl)
If this terrorist attack in India happend a month ago McCain would have gained in the polls. The McCain Campaign was really hoping a tragic news event like this would have happened right before the election so he could use it to win. McCain wanted to make this Presidental election about National Security and Foriegn Policy. This would have been a National Security event that would have benifited McCain. Since this attack happened after the election now we don't have to worry about McCain being are next president. Now we dont't have to worry about a fine brunette baby machine being are vice president that would be Sarah Palin. If this attack happened a month ago America electing the first African American President would have been far fetched because McCain mighted have very possibly benifited from these deaths and attacks.
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Dale's ECB
Election Projection
Federal Review
Real Clear Politics
Rasmussen Reports
Gallup
Zogby
FoxNews Polls
Sabato/Crystal Ball
Paul Anka Haiku Contest Announcement
Integrity SAT's: Entrance Exam for Paul Anka's Band
AllahPundit's Paul Anka 45's Collection
AnkaPundit: Paul Anka Takes Over the Site for a Weekend (Continues through to Monday's postings)
George Bush Slices Don Rumsfeld Like an F*ckin' Hammer
Democratic Forays into Erotica
New Shows On Gore's DNC/MTV Network
Nicknames for Potatoes, By People Who Really Hate Potatoes
Star Wars Euphemisms for Self-Abuse
Signs You're at an Iraqi "Wedding Party"
Signs Your Clown Has Gone Bad
Signs That You, Geroge Michael, Should Probably Just Give It Up
Signs of Hip-Hop Influence on John Kerry
NYT Headlines Spinning Bush's Jobs Boom
Things People Are More Likely to Say Than "Did You Hear What Al Franken Said Yesterday?"
Signs that Paul Krugman Has Lost His Frickin' Mind
All-Time Best NBA Players, According to Senator Robert Byrd
Other Bad Things About the Jews, According to the Koran
Signs That David Letterman Just Doesn't Care Anymore
Examples of Bob Kerrey's Insufferable Racial Jackassery
Signs Andy Rooney Is Going Senile
Other Judgments Dick Clarke Made About Condi Rice Based on Her Appearance
Collective Names for Groups of People
John Kerry's Other Vietnam Super-Pets
Cool Things About the XM8 Assault Rifle
Media-Approved Facts About the Democrat Spy
Changes to Make Christianity More "Inclusive"
Secret John Kerry Senatorial Accomplishments
John Edwards Campaign Excuses
John Kerry Pick-Up Lines
Changes Liberal Senator George Michell Will Make at Disney
Torments in Dog-Hell
The Ace of Spades HQ Sex-for-Money Skankathon
A D&D Guide to the Democratic Candidates
Margaret Cho: Just Not Funny
More Margaret Cho Abuse
Margaret Cho: Still Not Funny
Iraqi Prisoner Claims He Was Raped... By Woman
Wonkette Announces "Morning Zoo" Format
John Kerry's "Plan" Causes Surrender of Moqtada al-Sadr's Militia
World Muslim Leaders Apologize for Nick Berg's Beheading
Michael Moore Goes on Lunchtime Manhattan Death-Spree
Milestone: Oliver Willis Posts 400th "Fake News Article" Referencing Britney Spears
Liberal Economists Rue a "New Decade of Greed"
Artificial Insouciance: Maureen Dowd's Word Processor Revolts Against Her Numbing Imbecility
Intelligence Officials Eye Blogs for Tips
They Done Found Us Out, Cletus: Intrepid Internet Detective Figures Out Our Master Plan
Shock: Josh Marshall Almost Mentions Sarin Discovery in Iraq
Leather-Clad Biker Freaks Terrorize Australian Town
When Clinton Was President, Torture Was Cool
What Wonkette Means When She Explains What Tina Brown Means
Wonkette's Stand-Up Act
Wankette HQ Gay-Rumors Du Jour
Here's What's Bugging Me: Goose and Slider
My Own Micah Wright Style Confession of Dishonesty
Outraged "Conservatives" React to the FMA
An On-Line Impression of Dennis Miller Having Sex with a Kodiak Bear
The Story the Rightwing Media Refuses to Report!
Our Lunch with David "Glengarry Glen Ross" Mamet
The House of Love: Paul Krugman
A Michael Moore Mystery (TM)
The Dowd-O-Matic!
Liberal Consistency and Other Myths
Kepler's Laws of Liberal Media Bias
John Kerry-- The Splunge! Candidate
"Divisive" Politics & "Attacks on Patriotism" (very long)
The Donkey ("The Raven" parody)