1 The most cogent argument to date concerning the Big 3.  It's a classic Wharton approach to restructuring, and Mitt has stated the problem and solution well.  Of course, the liberal elites in New York, San Francisco, and Chicago will castigate and demean his musings because he's a conservative.  Mitt will be denounced as not caring for the little people who only make $73/hour. 

2

If the GOP had a presidential candidate with some serious economic chops when the shit hit the fan this fall, November 4th might have turned out very differently.

Where, oh where, would we have found such a person? Maybe in a primary process where actual Republicans selected our fucking nominee for starters.

3 Oh fuck it.  Send Ty Pennington over in the RV with his handy pals and give the big 3 an Extreme Makeover.  A workout room for the fat-assed union thugs,  pedicure stations for the big wigs,  cool bean bag chairs for the design guys to "kick back" a little.  It would be cool.  The execs and union toughs could break down and sob a minute or two,  hug each other,  and then do a few tear soaked fist pumps in the air when  they do the big reveal -  a huge fucking Toyota sign.

4 Mitt said that?

I didn't support him in the primaries, but I've liked him more and more ever since. 

Now look to blind union supporters (such as the oh-so-related AFT) to castigate him because after all, what would MITT know about the auto industry...

5 4 Mitt said that?


Yeah.  But he was probably wearing magical underwear when he said it.

6 Jesus would bail out the Big 3.

7 What they need to do is bust the union, not renegotiate with them.

8 If we could somehow just loot the UAW's pension fund, we could bail them all out, wait, what?

9 Big 3 stock is so cheap the UAW could buy all three outright.  Today.

Since they obviously know how to run things, why haven't they?

/rhetorical

10 Also see Observations.

Romney permanently tattooed "RINO" on his own forehead in 2006, with the passage of state-mandated "Health Insurance for Everyone", which he tried to pass off as "Health Care for Everyone".

We've been effectively "bailing out" the health care and pharmaceutical industries - for no good reason, since they're flush. For decades, by allowing the Health Insurance Industry to utterly confound the market that should exist between consumers and health care providers - sans the comprehensive insurance middleman - health care costs have increased at many times the rate of inflation, with no end in sight. The problem utterly dwarfs the issue raised by the "Big 3" and pushes us - because we refuse to think about the problem rationally - inexorably toward nationalized health insurance (note: NOT health care).

Romney is simply making his case for 2012 by mouthing the words he knows conservatives want to hear. His record speaks a different language entirely.

Coming soon: the Big Bailout for the Health Insurance Industry, with attendant transfer of equity to the feds - the first step in nationalizing health insurance (note: NOT health care).

11 Romney is simply making his case for 2012 by mouthing the words he knows conservatives want to hear.

Maybe, but who else in the party is even mouthing them?

12 "The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end."

This will forever be a point of serious conflict, so hopefully, for both their sakes, they can work something out. I have my doubts, and I don't blame it all on unions though in this particular industry, the UAW seems to be the most irritating thorn. The CEOs, though, aren't helping.

I recall a rift between management and labor a few years ago with American Airlines. The company was in comprehensive contract renewal renegotiation because the industry, and the airline, was approaching bankruptcy. Management convinced the pilots, flight attendants, and their smaller compadres to take a big economic hit to salvage the airline. Tensions eased and all looked good. A few days later, it was discovered that the CEO and several levels of executive management had worked into the negotiation multimillion dollar bonuses for themselves. All hell broke loose and IIRC, the CEO (a long-tenured and highly visible one) ended up pretty much getting fired resigning shortly thereafter for the stunt. It was not popular inside the industry, obviously, or outside in public opinion either. Management did not exercise good faith.

The point is that in the auto industry now, it seems neither side is serious about cleaning up their acts. They set themselves up for failure and they should fail. The airline unions had public support after management was seen scooping from the coffers not that long ago. I don't see any public support for the domestic auto industry, save for the employees effected. Romney has it right even if there will be some pain.

13

If the GOP had a presidential candidate with some serious economic chops when the shit hit the fan this fall, November 4th might have turned out very differently.

Nope. The GOP was doomed, no matter who was chosen from the candidates available. Rudy wouldn't have saved us, nor Fred, nor Mitt. Had Sarah Palin headed the ticket, she might have had a chance...but I doubt it.

 

14

Very surprising to see the New York Times run anything that makes actual business sense and is not a paean to the labor unions.  A little "straight talk" from Mitt.  I agree with him 100%.

15 Had Sarah Palin headed the ticket, she might have had a chance...but I doubt it.

New plan: Sarah gets a Ph.D. in economics.

16

In my old age, I've gone from being a strong libertarian to a social con with libertarian leanings.  We can argue all we want about how strongly to fight the gay mafia, the legalize-drugs mafia, and the welfare mafia, but it's not going to matter if the American economy is destroyed and we're living in a socialist state.

Economic conservatism is the blood of liberty.  If we cannot create and amass wealth, we cannot protect ourselves from external threats or keep the roads paved or lock up the criminals or make usre our internet connections function even as well as they do now.

Which is why, even though I get a little nauseous thinking about his support for gay rights and what amounts to mandatory health insurance, Mitt is and has always been my man.

This is one of the ten smartest and most successful businessmen in the world, and he's done it all without becoming a corrupt bastard, nor profiting at the peril of those who are relatively powerless.  He's not Enron, he's not a hedge-fund manager.  He's not even Halliburton.  He does it the right way and is universally respected among business leaders.

Not only that, but he's something of a miracle worker.  You may all remember the 2002 Salt Lake Olympics.  Sure it's kind of a low-priority thing in retrospect, but they were fucking drowning.  America was going to look like a laughingstock, being the first Olympic host to basically shit the bed publicly.  Mitt came into the unwinnable scenario and made it a success in short order.

Let me also tell you about Mitt in Massachusetts.  Mass as you may know has an entirely Democrat Congressional delegation, and has had for some time.  Our state legislature is nearly the same.  Not only was he able to come in and win as a Republican in an entirely blue state, but he was able to get tax cuts and spending controls put in place with his overwhelmingly-opposition legislature.

Given the current state of the electorate, does any of this sound attractive to you?  Given the choice between a freakin' Commie and a socially moderate-to-liberal fiscal conservative, do you even have to think about it?

Mitt Romney has the potential to be a Rushmorian president.  He doesn't need the pay cut.  He doesn't need the hassle.  His underdeveloped sense of hubris was on full display during the primary debates, and I will submit that he doesn't even need this to assuage his ambition.  He has had everything he needed since he married Anne and fathered his sons.

Rather, he is truly willing to sacrifice for you and me.  The hope and change that the left and the MSM (but I repeat myself) saw in the One, is actually here, present, potential in Romney.

And the only bar to his electability- his religion- is neatly taken care of, now that we've elected a self-proclaimed (in his memoirs) black supermacist and anti-Semite.  Do you think Mitt will allow the electorate to stay ignorant of Obama's religious background the way McStupid did?

That Mitt is writing "White Papers", as it were, at this point means he's starting the surfacing process for 2012 now.  I urge those of you who can't bear to think of a permanent Democratic majority to get behind him now, as I have.

Best Regards

17

Let capitalism work its magic. Someone will step into the vacuum and a new, profitable, auto industry will rise from the ashes.

 

http://www.hostileopposition.blogspot.com

18 I really don't think the unions are necessary today, but how the heck can I blame them for the big three management agreeing to their demands?  The big 3 management has a duty to shareholders and if they have to reject the monopolized labor deals because it just delays the inevitable then they have to reject the monopolized labor deals.

Also, Dr. Peter Morici,  Economist at the University of Maryland, was the only dissent testifying yesterday before the Senate Banking Committee against a bailout and in support of a path to bankruptcy.
His opening statement is here[PDF].
http://tinyurl.com/6g3ckz

19 The auto companies have been catering to their union workers, and have been giving into their increasing demands for years. The result? Things like the Jobs Bank, where workers are paid to stay home and NOT work for long periods of time. Then there are their perks- I'm guessing they are the best in the world. Everyone in the Detroit area knows someone in the auto industry who doesnt' have a college degree, yet has several cars, a vacation home, a boat and a pricey new home that they can't afford. These people have been overpaid for years, and it's the fault of both the companies and their unions. In other words, I agree with Romney. Their business models should be left to fail, and then they can restructure them into companies that might (key word might) make vehicles that are competitively priced, reliable and fuel efficient. Until that happens, the big 3 have no hope of selling me a vehicle.

20 Mitt/Palin 2012?

I really think Mitt gets a bad rap.  The worry about another RINO is real, but Mitt governs based on the political map he has to work with.  Ie, the same shit Governor Bush did with the political map he had to work with.  Give Mitt the national political map with fiscal conservatism and cultural conservatism holding strong and midly strong majorities comparitively, and we'll have the right candidate.

I know Team Mitt and Team Palin may appear as rivals right now, but they should form a PAC together and spend the next two years helping Republicans raise money and get elected to articulate the strategy moving forward.  2012 is a long way away.

21 Until that happens, the big 3 have no hope of selling me a vehicle.

I won't go that far. If they are desperate, I won't mind bending one of them over the barrel for a f-150 or a Silverado.

22

I own a 2008 Saturn Aura and I love it.  Great sport sedan with a peppy engine, optional 6-speed manual/automatic transmission, XM radio, all the bells and whistles.  And I got it for a mere $21,000 after all the incentives and rebates.  I traded in a crappy 2005 Buick Rendezvous for it. 

It's amazing how much GM cars have improved in just these last 3 years.  I think their marketing people are the dumbest idiots on the planet. 

23

I think Mitt is right in saying to let them go into chapter 11. That is the only way they will get control of the unions. In fact, with them losing money on every car sold, now would be a damn good time to fight the unions. If the unions go on stike the company will actually save money.

24

Ol' Mittens is the only candidate I ended up liking more at the end of the election process than I did at the beginning.  (I think he's shown himself to be a pretty classy guy -not to mention smart as hell.)  As I said in another post, he's probably the only politician (not just the only Republican) that could've inspired confidence in the markets during the meltdown.  In addition, I think he's the only one that could've explained the situation to the American people. Too bad the base couldn't coalesce behind him during the primaries.  Maybe he'll get a chance in 2012.

If Barry really wants to prove his post-partisan chops he should pick Mitt for Treasury.  (Instead I bet he'll either tap Hagel for something or keep Robert Gates at Defense for another year.)  I hope as the GOP gets it's bearings back they'll give guys like Mitt a voice, at least in the area of economic policy.  He's got specific knowledge about markets, finance, and turning around companies that few have.  If the GOP wants to present a message that's relevant in our global economy it should take advantage of that specific knowledge. 

RE: The Editorial

I'm on board with a "managed bankruptcy" where the fed guarantees car warranties aren't at risk.  (The main argument I've heard against bankruptcy for the Big 3 has been that people won't buy cars from a company in bankruptcy.  A warranty guarantee should help.) I also agree that the Big 3 needs to dropkick management (especially GM's Wagoner). As far as his ideas about labor: Does anyone know if UAW workers get any profit sharing or stock grants now?  That seems like such a basic idea for aligning worker-boss incentives.  I'd be shocked if the Big 3 had never done this before.  Lastly, I like his idea about the federal government investing in more basic research.  I know it's conservative heresy but I'm more a pragmatist than a purist (i.e., a RINO in the parlance of the conservative base) so I approve.  Even in a healthy economy, markets will sometimes fail (e.g., coordination costs are too high, property rights can't be secured, specific knowledge is too costly or embedded to transfer, etc.)  Alternatively, this research could also be conducted through some sort of industry consortium.  I'm not sure if the Big 3 has something like that now.  

25 Vic, you'r eonly partially right- they still have a ton of overhead to pay for unless they can liquidate it quickly.  If they stop making cars, then they lose more money in the short run than if they make them and sell them.  Unfortunately, labor costs won't go away because they're not making cars, either, and I think labor costs are at the crux of their economic losses.

26 I really think Mitt gets a bad rap.  The worry about another RINO is real, but Mitt governs based on the political map he has to work with.  Ie, the same shit Governor Bush did with the political map he had to work with.  Give Mitt the national political map with fiscal conservatism and cultural conservatism holding strong and midly strong majorities comparitively, and we'll have the right candidate.

Yeah, people tend to forget that Reagan signed pro-abortion legislation and tax increases as Governor of California.

27 You know who benefits from this...?

28 A few years ago GM was trying to sell parts of its Delphi automotive business.  I was part of a team that was looking to finance a purchase of Delphi's auto generator business by a national auto parts supplier.  We toured Delphi's Flint MI plant.  There were hundreds of workers yet no one was actually working.  Some were knitting, others were playing cards, talking on the phone, reading the paper or sleeping on cots in the middle of the work floor.  The plant manager admitted later that the automated system only needed workers input if the production line jammed.  The union forced the plant to staff three times as many people as needed.  The plant manager also admitted to being virtually powerless in any effort to get the people to actually do anything.  He wrote up a worker for sleeping on the job and was tied up in so many hearings with the union fighting his write-up that he never bothered to ever write up another worker.  Needless to say, the purchase fell through right after the plant tour.  This is why the big 3 auto makers are failing!  No bailout is going to change this mentality.   

29

In my old age, I've gone from being a strong libertarian to a social con with libertarian leanings.

I had to laugh. We are only pure libertarians in our youth, ATNorth. Then we we reach a certain age we discover that we like having regular trash removal, someone to plow the roads in winter, and trained police rather than drunken militiamen keeping the peace. Life is a series of compromises, great and small: you only gain that wisdom by growing older.

It reminds me of something that Primo Levi wrote in The Drowned and the Saved (I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact quote): "The young above all require a clear division, a sharp cut. Their experience being meager, they do not like ambiguity."

 

30

I think labor costs are at the crux of their economic losses

 

The retirement costs are what is eating them up now. However, if the unions were to strike their current labor costs would decrease dramatically. If the workers are on strike they do not get paid. If they lay them off, they do. Better to let them strike.

31

One only has to read a few replies to understand why we didn't stand a chance this year in the election. People don't even understand the basics of this problem. Most of them claim that nasty, elite Republicans want to steal the pensions and health benefits from the poor, overworked blue collar folks. First of all, pensions are insured. PBGC insures monthly payment to $4,300 for 65 year olds. So the pensions wouldn't "go away". Secondly, the ones claiming there wouldn't be any health insurance for these poor folks, I have one word for you - Medicare. These retirees don't have to go on Medicare. Most of the loud mouths on the comments at NYT say, "if only we had national health care" - well we do and the UAW retirees don't want it - they want their "Cadillac" plans.

And PS to the NYT commenters, poor people don't make $130,000 a year.

32

The other large corporations saw this coming long ago and have shifted their retirement plans. All of the non-union companies have gone to “cash balance” programs instead of the standard retirement. On medical they have opted for a co-pay situation until Medicare/Medicaid kicks in and then they cut it off. That avoids the truly expensive years. And some companies, such as the one I recently retired from, have killed medical at retirement altogether for new hire employees. The young people coming in aren’t really attuned to “down the road” so they do not know what they are getting in to there.

 

Companies with unions are not able to shift the costs away and they are being bled dry.

33

Breaking News

Ted Stevens to concede. Dems stold one more.

34

ATNorth at November 19, 2008 02:15 PM (3h3kv)

Hold that thought. We can discuss at the moronpalooza tomorrow night if you can make it.

35 Every 4 years we hear the same complaint, "I can't believe these 2 clowns are the only people we could get to run for president.  I'm sick of voting for the lesser of 2 evils. Blah blah whine whine."  Finally we had a candidate who was totally the real deal.  Not only smart, but accomplished and had actually put his money where his mouth is.  A classy individual who has proven, since the primaries, that he is a team player.  A guy with a perfect social background.  The only skeleton in the closet was putting a dog in a crate on the roof of his car.  So what did we do when presented with this candidate?  Punted it.  Why?  Because of either: his religion (I'm waiting for the candidate who when asked about his religion says, "Fuck off.  There's no religious test.  It's not your business.") or people didn't trust his "conservative bonafides."  Good luck with your "conservative bonafides" in states like CA, NY, and MA.  (Isn't winning the point?"

36 Mitt is on the Howie Carr show streaming at WRKO in Boston. 

37 A client of mine was a former UAW shop steward in the 1980's.  In the late 1990's we were talking about the auto industry and why he no longer worked in it.  His answer -- he hated the union!  Because of its inflexibility it ruined the US auto industry in the 1980's.  It ran companies into the ground, all the while feeling content to stick to a failing business model that was nearly extinct in other industries.

They wouldn't even consider bending, couldn't comprehend that they wouldn't hold an ax over the head of Toyota just like they did over Detroit.  Believed their Socialist philosophy of employment was supported by the public when price and quality always beat supporting the UAW.

The UAW screwed the companies, the suppliers, the dealers, and now the only one left is the employees -- which is why they are demanding they screw the government! 

Sad thing is, it is all about keeping their cushy UAW job. 
David

38 9 Big 3 stock is so cheap the UAW could buy all three outright.  Today.

Would you actually be willing to pay $8 billion to assume the $175 billion in "corporate debt, pension liability, and expected future health care expenditures" of the Big 3?

39 rockmom @ 22

And I got it for a mere $21,000 after all the incentives and rebates.  I traded in a crappy 2005 Buick Rendezvous for it.

You have accurately described your mistake. 

You first bought a "union-built" shitpile (2005 Rendezvous)- then traded up to a slightly lesser shitpile which GM lost money when they sold it to you.

Would you have paid an extra $3K for your Saturn simply to keep GM in business?

40 "It's actually fairly basic business and conservative stuff..."

No, it's just fairly basic business stuff.  That's all.  There's no need to label good business sense as 'conservative'.  That would only serve to piss half of America off.

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