1

Sessions and DeMint are the best in the Senate right now. If the rest of them were like those two we would have had more Republicans elected in 2006 and nobody would have ever heard of the Vomit.

 

2 Yeah, that was the one bright moment of the whole speel in refusing to bailout the UAW.

Of course, I'm pretty certain he is simply holding back long enough to get some token sign of job security from Obama and crew before he dumps a tanker load of cash on them.

It's all going according to the playbook....Oh wait!!

3 We can file this one under "duh" - the auto execs are not his WS buddies/Obama contributors.

4 I think we need to include Inhofe as one of the good guys, too.  He seems to be working along the right lines as far as this [stupid fucking] bailout goes.

5 I <heart> Jeff Sessions.

6 We don't have the money to pay back what has been borrowed. Borrowing more money isn't going to change that fundamental truth. Forced liquidity can keep the party going for a bit longer but the problem is spreading both within the economy and worldwide. Even China is facing increased difficulties.

Irony...

"General Motors Corp., the world's biggest carmaker, opened a $300 million factory in Russia as it looks to compensate for slumping sales in western Europe and North America."  bloomberg

Are the Russians more capitalist than America now or do we have to wait for Obama to work his magic before we can say that?

7 More like Sessions, please.

*meanwhile, McCain is licking Obama's boots. I wonder if he hopes for the SecDef position?

8 Remember back when all these hundreds of billions were only to save the financial system for collapse? Back when it was only going to cost a measly $700 billion instead of however-many-trillions it's actually going to end up costing? Back when Paulson and Bernanke assured us that they were going to "act quickly" to avert disaster?

Fuck all these bozos. Fuck 'em with a rusty railspike. Fuck 'em with a lawn-rake. Fuck GM, fuck Ford, fuck Chyrsler, fuck the UAW, and Bernanke and Paulson can go fuck each other just for variety's sake.

If I were speaking instead of writing, I'd be choking on my own rage.

9

Given that it was Shumner who was supported to have turned pale after a meeting with Paulson, given the alarmist predictions from the MSM about the pending financial doom, given that none of the dire predictions given by the supporters of the bailout package ever materialized, and given that Paulson's subsequent conduct and flip flops doesn't anyone think that the whole financial meltdown thingy was ginned up by the Dems as an election October Surprise to help elect the One.

 

10

Dear Mr. Paulson,

I understand that the current economic situation is causing you continuous stress.  Please take two in the back of the head and be found face-down in front of the the Capitol in the morning.

Although I am not a doctor, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, I have it on fairly good authority that a pair of buffered .22 pain-relievers in your medulla oblongata will make all of your problems melt away.

Thank you.

P.S. Before self-medicating, please have Barney Frank and Chris Dodd stand in front of the dispensing unit.  It will speed recovery.

11 Your forgetting the main reason to back the bailout at the time. I backed it because I didn't think buying up the bad CMO's and then selling them when the market settled was that bad an idea in the face of the looming economic catastrophe (I would certainly have been way more reticent about buying up stock in banks). Mainly though I felt that if the Republicans blocked it and the economy when into a tailspin they wouldn't have been able to get elected for 20 years. i was pretty sure that if the Republicans blocked it and then we went into a long recession or depression that the entire CRA/Fannie/Freddie aspect would have been ignored by the media over time and the only thing they would discuss is the Republicans stopping the bailout. In fact I believe over time the Republicans blocking the bailout would become, by the media's "big lie" technique, the reason for the recession or depression itself rather than just a disagreement about how to deal with the crisis. I have no doubt that had the bailout not passed and the worse came to pass the media would have assumed (without evidence of course) that the bailout would have worked and that the current economy was entirely the fault of far right wing free market idealogues who stopped common sense legislation that even many "moderate" Republicans backed (McCain!!11!). The fact of the matter is that the Republicans are maybe in a better position now to oppose any other bailouts. They went along with one and it turned into the publics worst nightmare: unelected, unaccountable beauracrats spending money like drunken sailors on leave with no oversight. In addition there is no real proof that it is doing any good currently while the future bad effects are pretty clear (move towards bailout mentality, huge increase in the national debt). If the Republicans can get their act together they can turn this thing around. The pressure is going to be on the Democrats to bailout everybody and their grandma and the Republicans can have the fun of standing on principal and effective governance and refuse to go along. Either the Dem's cave and alienate some of their big constituencies or they go ahead and bail everyone out and move enough moderates and centrist into the R corner for them to win a few election cycles.

12 Told yah.

13 Screw the auto industry, which are now prdicting "catastrophe". What a crock. Catastrophy? And how were you planning on avoiding that had there never been approval of a bailout in the first place? The only catastrophy is the Union is pissed they didn't get their promised kickback for delivering Obama votes. Screw them, the sky is falling garbage is not fooling anyone and no one cares if it happens. Everyone knows the unions got the min this mess years ago, they can get them out

14 Big E, everything you described is exactly why we are in such a cluster fuck.....politics.

Screw them all, Republicans and Democrats and yes when Obama takes control he will name his lapdog for Treasurer and we very well may go straight to hell, with no chance of recovering at all but then again...we are doing that pretty much now.

I heard a Republican politician from Michigan on Cavuto earlier, pleading his case on why we "must" dole out billions to GM.
In his feverish pitch to get the cash he made the statement that the banks aren't making loans and thus they can't move cars.
At that moment I had a sense of dread come over me with the vision that this idiot was leading the whats left of our noncompetitive auto industry into a mirrored version of Freddie Mac and Fannie May's housing debacle.
I had the feeling that he wanted the government to force or pressure the banks to make loans to keep the car sector going....An endless circle jerk in trying to manipulate a free market that can't be manipulated...Scary as Hell.

15 Paulson has zero credibility.  He needs to inform the taxpayers of what he is doing with our money, and if it takes water-boarding to get the truth from him, so be it.

16 Big E., Drider, ICBM, Ace et al....

You all realize Paulson is a liberal Democrat, right (or he was before about 2004 judging by his donations)? That you got fucked -- probably intentionally -- and now Obama is President-elect.

I cannot believe you didn't see this at the time.

17 Oh wait, I forgot. Had to, "Do something."

Dude, that's a line you use with a girl that won't even give you a hand job, it's no basis for a system of economics.

18

*meanwhile, McCain is licking Obama's boots.

I think you've missed the location by about two-and-a-half feet, Bart.

19 In his feverish pitch to get the cash he made the statement that the banks aren't making loans and thus they can't move cars.

Don't know about your area, but over here in extremely sunny SoCal you can't throw a brick without hitting a radio ad for someone wanting to loan you money to buy a car, consolidate debt, or just give your business an "advance" on its Visa receipts.

20

Don't know about your area, but over here in extremely sunny SoCal you can't throw a brick without hitting a radio ad for someone wanting to loan you money to buy a car, consolidate debt, or just give your business an "advance" on its Visa receipts.

Posted by: Anachronda

Yeah I have seen the same. I think the credit card companies and banks are desperate for people to borrow...which is what got them into the spot their in to begin with.

21 Well, score a little one for capitalism.  At least we can enjoy it for a little while.

22 Christopher, it is known that Paulson is a liberal Democrat but seriously...does it matter.

Both parties sat around watching this "thing" unfold for years and did absolutlely nothing to stop it when they all knew the possibility for disaster.

This foundation for socialism is taking place under a sitting Republican President and is unforgivable.

All I know now is that trillions of our dollars are being used up in such a fly by night manner that it's mind boggling.

I see that at this moment that it doesn't seem to matter who is in charge, they all seem to have lost their bearings, with the exception of a couple of true Republicans/conserviative (God bless em) but that is I...T....IT.

Eh, but who knows.
Mabey this is all just a political scheme designed to achieve (fill in the blank) purpose and tomorrow we can all get back to our daily grind with a great weight lifted from our backs...eerrr.....wallets.

23 "Christopher, it is known that Paulson is a liberal Democrat but seriously...does it matter."

"Both parties sat around watching this 'thing' unfold for years and did absolutlely nothing to stop it when they all knew the possibility for disaster."

The point is Paulson felt motivated to throw the largest most unprecedented financial hissy-fit in American history just before the election.

24 This foundation for socialism is taking place under a sitting Republican President Democratic congress and is unforgivable.

fify

25 The point is Paulson felt motivated to throw the largest most unprecedented financial hissy-fit in American history just before the election.

Posted by: Christoph at November 18, 2008 07:39 PM (hawOV)

You might very well be right, and I wouldn't put it past them, but how do you go about proving something like that?

26 Apparently Paulson does have some vestigial shame.  Who knew?

27

Christoph,

Cute.  I was actually aware of Mr. Paulson's supposed political leanings (I read Malkin).

However, would you care to respond to the following hypothetical:  I think there is pretty widespread agreement that we are in a (unofficial) recession right now despite the bailout.  Certainly the stock market has been hit hard despite the bailout.  Let's say for the sake of argument that the bailout did nothing to help the economy or harm the economy and that things would have gone exactly as they have gone save for the bailout being blocked by Republicans in the House.  Do you believe that a) The media would even handedly explain that the bailout may or may not have helped, that there were legitimate pragmatic reasons (beyond ideological extremism) to oppose it and that the House Republicans had proposed an economic remedy that was not implemented that may or may not have helped. or b) The media would have spent the entire length of the recession and beyond selling the story that ideological extremists in control of the Republican Party blocked legislation that would have forestalled the recession and ushered in a new era of prosperity. 

Next, do you believe that the bailout having not been tried and the economy continuing to worsen that in say, oh I don't know February 2009 that the Dem's would have done a bailout anyway of much greater magnitude under the control of someone even worse than Paulson? 

28 You might very well be right, and I wouldn't put it past them, but how do you go about proving something like that?

The Democrats will have to govern for the next four years. We cannot expect them to do so honestly or responsibly, if this is how they came to power. Bush gets them off the hook by being complicit in the Crap Sandwich, and it reflects badly on the entire Republican party. Keep your eyes on the Democrats for the next two years, because that's when their feet can be held to the fire.

29 The UAW has given workers, many of are not college educated at all, a very, very nice lifestyle that many of us would envy. Money for vacation homes, third cars, boats and the like. Even full wages when they are not working under something quaint called the Jobs Bank. The UAW bosses are also living like sultans. No one wants to give that up. The pulled the lever for Neville Obama, the Democrats were supposed to protect them, and they are not. However, the word on local Detroit tv, is that if the bailout doesn't happen now, it will happen in January, when the "it's raining bailout money" Democrats are sworn in.

30 That is a relief, well for us at least.  This is a capitalist country, at least in theory, and that comes with a set of economic principles.  It's good to see this country hasn't completely been taken in the vicegrip of the new ruling illuminati left. 

31 "You might very well be right, and I wouldn't put it past them, but how do you go about proving something like that?"

You can't and it would hardly matter if you could (incidentally Paulson needn't necessarily have collaborated with anybody): Obama will be in power.

The point was the numbers of conservatives who took what a liberal Democrat said at face value. Please don't do that again.

Finally, I don't think Bush was any better at reading Paulson's character than he was Putin's.

32 More like Sessions, please.

*meanwhile, McCain is licking Obama's boots. I wonder if he hopes for the SecDef position?

Posted by: Bart at November 18, 2008 06:51 PM (QRqmf)


No, he's just doing that to get the taste of Obama's cock out of his mouth.

33 No< Paulson has no shame. He simply doesn't want to give money to the automarkers so he has more for his Wall Street croneys.

34

One thing I find interesting about Paulson's big switcheroo is that practically no economist believed his plan to buy the illiquid assets would work.  Most of them supported the bailout only because the situation was so dire.  But they noted it would be difficult to value these assets and his auction idea was an unworkable solution.  Moreover, Stiglitz (a big lib, but still a decent economist when he isn't dealing with stuff outside his domain of reference) noted the inherent adverse selection problem Paulson would face.  What did most of these economists suggest?  Injecting capital into the banks. lol.  So I don't buy Paulson's story that he switched tactics because the situation got too severe too quickly.  I think after a little bit of reflection (and probably reading what real economists thought - not just Goldman Sachs guys) he realized his plan would never work.

I see no evidence that Malkin or anyone else that opposed the bailout has really been vindicated.  The only thing that's clear is that the bailout didn't need to be rushed the way it was.  (Bush sold the bailout as "Give Paulson $700 billion and make him King or the sky will fall tomorrow.")  But we have no clue how bad it would've been if the bill wasn't signed and the market wasn't able to internalize that information.  Nor how bad it would've been if Paulson had not injected all that money into the banks by buying preferred stocks.  The LIBOR rates were shockingly high during the crisis.  Plus the commercial paper market totally dried up for a little bit.  It wasn't a completely manufactured crisis.  Just dramatically sold by Paulson and Bush.  From what I've heard the problem they face now is just getting the banks to lend again.  There's a big crisis of confidence and I don't think Barry's too cute attempts to play both the moderates that voted for him (by putting Rubin and Summers on his econ team) and the far left libs that voted for him (by refusing to say he won't raise taxes and putting big unions supporters on his econ team) is helping matters.  There's still alot of uncertainty out there about Barry.   

At times like this I really wish Romney had won.  He's probably the only politician, let alone Republican, that could inspire a little confidence in the markets.

35 "I think after a little bit of reflection (and probably reading what real economists thought - not just Goldman Sachs guys) he realized his plan would never work."

But we were told by expert financial analysts like Ace and "someone" that it would work.

36

But we were told by expert financial analysts like Ace and "someone" that it would work.

LOL. Well, even though few really liked Paulson's plan, I think almost every "financial analyst" said they had to do something.  I guess the idea was to increase market confidence by showing something was going to be done about the problem, even if "that thing" was wildly inefficient and likely to be extremely expensive in the long run.

37 To: Ace
From: Masturbatin' Pete
Re:  Bailout

I hate to say "I told you so," but-- wait, fuck that. I love to say "I told you so."

I TOLD YOU SO!!!

In the words of Eric Bickel, DON'T QUESTION ME!

38 I guess the idea was to increase market confidence

Yeah, that's worked out really well . . . 

39

Oy vey.

Don't go all wobbly, Ace.  This was never going to be an easy problem to fix.

Let me make an analogy.  When the war in Iraq was first broached, most here where in favor of it because it was the right thing to do.  Then, like all wars, it proved to much more complicated than the public or even the experts imagined.  Things went sideways.  Many (Andrew Sullivan types) jumped ship.

Then the topic of a surge was announced.  Most thought it was foolish and we should just agree to admit defeat regardless of the fact that the harm it would have caused would have been far greater than any momentary defeat.  But some supported it, we didn't whine how much it cost (anybody keeping score on the war's cost?) and we didn't second guess Petraeus' every move on a daily basis.  Most, who weren't blithering idiots, didn't bitch before the boots were even on the ground that it was a failure and if you remember, the violence actually spiked at the beginning of the surge.

So far, well under half of the money approved in the bailout has been spent.  In other words, the boots aren't even on the ground yet.  And much like the war, this problem is far more complex than just magically putting money into the system and thinking it will all get better.

Loan volume is actually up.  That's right, up.  But a host of secondary problems have sprung up that have still kept financial activity far from normal.  We have millions of people working in the financial industry, many with jobs that virtually nobody has heard of or worse, understands.  International finance may not be physics but it sure as hell isn't journalism either.

First and foremost, the securitization of loan market is on life support if not in a coma.  The very thng that kept markets humming along and also geometrically made the credit problem worse, the securitizing of loans and selling them into the market, has crept to a halt.  This means banks are holding loans and have less to lend out.  Think It's A Good Life and Zuzu ain't getting her petals.  Two years ago, hell, a year ago, there was Fannie and Freddie to offload home mortgages onto and an international market begging for US loans of all types.  Not so much today.

Second, businesses and homeowners are taping existing credit lines to hoard cash.  This is also putting a strain on banks cash holdings.

Third, the defaulting on current loans is not abating.  All those subprime loans that started this mess aren't going away and the recession we were slipping into before the credit crisis is bringing fresh ones in daily.  Once again, banks cash holdings are being stressed.

That's the enviroment Paulson and Bernanke are dealing in daily.  It is a constantly morphing problem and yea, currently the best way to keep the pulse pumping is too keep banks somewhat alive with cash.  Cash equals loans.  Loans equal credit.  Credit equals the economy we have known for the last 70 years.  That became clear as the crisis unfolded.

I don't love Paulson but I also view his job as at least as complex and even faster changing with more variables than Petraeus and I never thought it was a wise strategy to have a public referendum anytime Petraeus changed his troop deployments.  I'm willing to cut him some slack and not jump his shit because this world's largest economy hasn't responded in lightspeed from a near fatal disease.

Or we could just do what the Dems in Congress are screaming to do and pay off all the subprime mortgages with our tax dollars.  Which I don't know, sounds ass to me and wouldn't fix dick.  Or we could just let the whole damn financial industry crash and go back to a worldwide barter economy.  Kinda ass, too.

Or we could listen to Christoph and Malkin and forget Paulson worked for Ehrilcman in the Nixon White House and pretend this entire worldwide crisis was a secret plot by Saul Alinsky's ghost to elect Obama.

Patience.

40 5:1 Paulson winds up with a vacation at Club Fed a couple of years down the road.

41 "Let me make an analogy. When the war in Iraq was first broached, most here where in favor of it because it was the right thing to do."

Yes, but without rehashing all the old arguments, the difference is this was always the wrong thing to do.

42 5:1 Paulson winds up with a vacation at Club Fed a couple of years down the road.

So you think the Obama Justice Department is going to pursue the guy who helped push the O-man over the top by scaring the piss out of everyone and cheerleading for the bailout that nobody wanted?

How long have you been in the city, Country Mouse?

43 war of liberation against a hated and vicious long-term enemy

≠

subsidizing allegedly capitalist financial institutions with borrowed taxpayer dollars

44 My husband and I are quite conservative; we were just discussing the auto industry issue this afternoon.

I don't think that a bailout of the auto industry can be justified at all - it would just be subsidizing the UAW; and the labor unions donate so heavily to the Democratic Party, that it's almost like doing a favor for a lobbyist group. Unions have caused employees to be overpaid while quality has gone down; the product simply isn't competitive in the marketplace.

That being said, the banks may be a different story; this is not a simple situation that can be clearly analyzed quickly; it's complex, and it will be studied for decades to come. While in general I err on the side of theory - philosophy of government - in this case, it might be the time to lean to the pragmatic. And that doesn't make me friendly to the leftist illuminati, it just means that I think that our national security and our economic stability are closely related; so for me, the original bailout will send a message of economic and military viability. Weak money, weak military.

45

But we were told by expert financial analysts like Ace and "someone" that it would work.

No, you dumb sack of shit, it wasn't Paulson's plan.  Go back and take a look again.  Paulson asked for what the Dems in Congress whined was a "blank check" to address the situation.  He wanted flexibility to deal with an incredibly complex situation which includes not just the entire US economy but in fact by extension the worldwide economy since every free market economy in the world depends on ours.

He was rebuffed on the left by the Dems who wanted to target the money to subprime loans who should never have been granted and on the right by those geniuses like Malkin who thinks the US economy will just pull a Phoenix and rise up stronger than ever on the basis that, well who the fuck knows what they think cause there is no rational thought behind "hey, let's try a depression on for size in the middle of two wars and a worldwide economic crisis".

Paulson got the package that passed Congress with all the requisite strings attached.  Politicians, mostly lawyers, are at least as ignorant as the average Canadian on the workings of the US financial system.  I think I will go with one of the brightest economic minds in the world over a gaggle of lawyers and a pedantic and submoronic Canadian or two.

46 I seem to remember Ace railing at everybody when the bailout was first proposed, telling us basically that a vote against TARP was a vote for soup lines.  Poor quality soup, too, the kind made of boiled shoe leather from Joe Biden's wing-tips.

Guess Paulson's not the only person who changes his mind occasionally.

In any event, some oversight from a person or person who's not a complete freakin' idiot might be nice.  Too bad we're all out of those.

47 "While in general I err on the side of theory - philosophy of government - in this case, it might be the time to lean to the pragmatic. And that doesn't make me friendly to the leftist illuminati..."

No, it just makes you a coward in the mode of Ace et al.

Not a coward in facing bullets or whatever, nor morally wrong in most other instances, but yes in taking by force at the point of a gun money from taxpayers and your children (since it's borrowed) and giving it to selected businesses so you didn't have to risk a short-term financial crunch caused by your generations's profligate spending.

48 "I seem to remember Ace railing at everybody when the bailout was first proposed, telling us basically that a vote against TARP was a vote for soup lines."

I noticed that too.

49

Yeah, that's worked out really well . . .

The problem is we don't know how much worse it would've been without the bailout.  I'll agree the bailout was hurried, the plan was poorly structured, Paulson isn't half as smart as he thinks he is, Paulson (as well as Bernake and Bush for that matter) is a terrible salesman and clueless about dealing with the public, etc. But there's plenty of evidence there was a real serious crisis that could've destroyed our financial markets and bled down to mainstreet.  Moreover, there's evidence Paulson's actions (pumping money into the banks) at least coincided with a stabilization of those markets (certainly the lower LIBOR rates attest to that).   

Good post JackStraw.  I don't see the bailout as some nefarious plot to screw the GOP or Main Street USA either.  (Although I think the Dems are trying to turn it into that to sell their auto maker bailout.)  I think the financial crisis and the mismanaged bailout is just evidence that even the smartest people (Paulson and all those quant geeks on Wall Street) make significant errors in calculating probabilities and unintended consequences too.  In fact I think the whole situation is more of an information problem than a motivation/incentive problem.   

50

The auto industry is in trouble because no one wants to buy the products. They dont build cool, fun to drive cars for the masses anymore. Thank what started out as pollution controled (mid to late 70s) little cars. Now, the effect did reduce the smog levels in the cities. So that was good. But wait...That also ramped up the level of attack on the car producers. MORE they screamed. More control! And here we are now.

They say the average cost of the UAW Controled Car companies, per vehicle, is 4-5 thousand dollars.

Add to that the cost of having the pollution crap every car, truck etc. made has to have. OH GREAT..Now, we are going electric. That should fix everything///

They dont/cant produce the cars we would buy.

Unless you can afford to drop about 40-80 grand on one.

Joe the Plumber cant.

51 The 11 Blunders of Hank Paulson
US News and World Report via Michelle Malkin

52

Hey Jack Straw...

 

Good stuff, thank you for the effort. I've never understood the Malkin position either.

I'm in Detroit metro, keep an eye on this auto bail out. It's going to happen, it's a matter of when. The interesting part will be layoff stipulations.If the dems have their way, the money will come with strings attached that cover the UAW workers. That's when the real screaming will begin.

53

I think the financial crisis and the mismanaged bailout is just evidence that even the smartest people (Paulson and all those quant geeks on Wall Street) make significant errors in calculating probabilities and unintended consequences too.

Of course they do.  This is an enormously and ever changing problem.

But be fair.  Paulson never asked for the plan he got.  He asked for a plan the Dems whined was a blank check.  He asked for flexibility because he knew the problem was complex and would constantly morph and he needed to change his solutions as to target where the problems arose.  He was refused.

It's fun to make fun of Wall Street.  I hate the dicks as much as anyone and have dealt with them for years.  In fact, I hate them more than most.  I guar-un-fucken-tee you. But I am also acutely aware how complex that world is and the thought that you can fix the problems with something as blunt as a Congressional mandate by 400+ lawyers and assorted clowns is laughable.

Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, Franklin Raines and the like caused this problem and now these same people want to dictate how to fix it?  I don't know, maybe that isn't such a good idea.  Michelle Malkin who has been a jounalist since the 3rd grade isn't in favor of it, well color me unimpressed.  Christoph who trolls on right sites until he gets banned as he has at both Patterico and now Hot Air thinks it isn't conservative to pass muster in, heh, Canada, fuck him. 

Calling this a failure a couple weeks after the plan was agreed upon while the rest of the world continues to crash around us seems a tad stupid to me as well.

As I said, patience.

54 We could bail out a lot of pirated oil tankers with that money... I'm just sayin'!

55

Thanks, booter.

To be honest, I don't support a bailout of the automotive industry.  I think it would be pouring good after bad.  That's a whole different ballgame.

But we all know come January 20 we are going to get one, the only question is what will it look like.  I'll take a wild ass guess and bet it is big on executive pay caps, no union concessions and higher cafe standards mixed with electric car mandates backed by billions of tax payer dollars.

But I'm a cynic.

56

 I think the financial crisis and the mismanaged bailout is just evidence that even the smartest people (Paulson and all those quant geeks on Wall Street) make significant errors in calculating probabilities and unintended consequences too.  In fact I think the whole situation is more of an information problem than a motivation/incentive problem.   

No.  It's a "won't keep their fucking hands off of the economy so the market can correct itself" problem. Holy crap.

Inahoffe, Sessions and DeMint - Fucking Gladiators.

Meanwhile, the face of our "Grand Ol' Party" is sucking off his Madjesty whilst commiserating with Lieberpuss as to how to further wreck the economy by shoving the "Must stop Global Warming at all costs" cock down it's throat, despite bonified scientific evidence that the whole "World is about to ignite" cult are fucking demented.  Check out my post on it.

I'm with Monty at #8. Fuck em all.  Fuck them in their fucking ears.

BTW, Ace... "from the Republican Wing of the Republican Party"... I almost pooped myself laughing.  Thanks

57 Well, let's see here...Hank says he won't do it on a Tuesday, so that must mean that the auto bailout will happen on or before Friday.

58

No.  It's a "won't keep their fucking hands off of the economy so the market can correct itself" problem. Holy crap. 

LOL! You just showed how little you fucking know about this situation, do you realize that?  Let me ask you something:  How the fuck was the market going to correct itself when no one knew the real value of the assets clogging the credit system?  And even if the seller knew the real value, how would the buyer know the seller was telling the truth?  Would YOU lend money to someone when you couldn't attest that the borrower had the means to pay you back?  That's what the banks were facing with these illiquid assets.  These assets weren't traded on some exchange. There was no price revelation mechanism.  

Spare me the lecture about how markets correct themselves when clearly you, Malkin and the rest of the idiots that think there was no need to do anything in this situation haven't the foggiest idea what's needed for a market to function efficiently in the first place. Heres' a clue: They don't operate by voodoo or magic!!!  It's not a big fucking mystery!!!  At a minimum you need alienable decision rights over the assets to be traded (to align incentives) and some sort of price revelation mechanism.  The latter was missing in this case.  As I said, it was an information problem.  Holy Crap indeed.  

59

One more thing.  Like JackStraw I don't support the Big 3 bailout.  I think they should go into bankruptcy and shake off their obligations to the UAW (gold plated benefits for UAW retirees are the main reason for this bailout), drop a bunch of dealers, reorganize, etc. The most I want to see from the government is maybe a guarantee on warranties to foster Big 3 sales while they're in bankruptcy.

Why the finance industry and not the Big 3?

First, there's an alterantive for the Big 3: Bankruptcy with some sort of government backed warranty guarantee.  Second, the risk of the entire industry melting down if one firm fails is greater in the finance industry than in the auto industry.  For one thing financial firms are one another's customers. Not true with the automakers.  (In fact the surviving firms may benefit if one of the 3 auto makers goes under.) Third, the overall impact on the country would be far more devastating if the finance industry melted down than if one of the automakers went under.  That's not to say the loss of one of the Big 3 wouldn't be terrible.  Just not as far reaching.  In one instance we're talking about a few states like Michigan.  In the other instance we're talking about the entire economy.  (Anyone that doesn't get how the finance industry affects them is buying into Obama's psuedo-populist Main Street versus Wall Street bullshit.  Main street and finance industry are deeply interrelated.  There's no way around it.)  Lastly, the auto makers (particularly GM) have been a mess forever.  Giving them money is just throwing good money after bad.  There's no reason to believe they'll get their act together.  Particularly with Dems controlling Congress and protecting the Unions at all cost. 

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the Big 3 drama up on Capital Hill was just Pelosi trying to get a little political cover for the Dems.  For example, she refuses to tap into the money for advanced technology loans because she says it's urgently needed for industry modernization.  But if the Big 3 is in such poor shape that shouldn't matter.  If the bailout fails to pass, like I think it will and she still doesn't tap into that money than I'm calling shenanigans.  She could've waited until the new Congress meets in January to pass this bailout with ease. But she wanted the GOP to take part ownership in it.  Anyway, I digress.  I just wanted to explain why I supported one bailout (even thought I think the whole situation is a mess) but I don't support the other.

60 I...feel like I've been suckered into supporting one plan only to be baited and switched into another plan. Without being notified, and definitely without my consent.

Umm, Ace, you do realize that what was put forth was a carte blanche check made out to Paulson, and that the specifics of the plan - and execution of said plan - was up to him.

It gives Congress cover: if it works, hey, look at what we did for ya! and if it doesn't, hey, it was that crazy Paulson guy, we didn't vote for this mess!.

61

@58- LOL! You just showed how little you fucking know about this situation, do you realize that? 

You are absolutely right that I know little about fucking up the system so bad that when we discover that we have been collectively ass-raped our response is, "Wow, that hurt like a motherfucker... Please, can you now do it with a baseball bat??!?!?" 

Do not mistake me.  I  think we agree wholeheartedly on the inital cause of the problem... Let me see if this about sums it up: 

This cluster-fuck was caused by corrupt ass-monkeys in congress splooging up the works with nonsensical policies forcing banks to loan money to unqualified degenerates, making gabillions for themselves and their cock-slurping partners in the GSE's and then in-turn, pawning off the steaming piles of shit that they called portfolios to complicit investment bankers that then formed the cooled down piles into yummy, chocolate-covered, shit brownies.  Then someone took a bite of the delectible little morsel and said, "Is it me or did I just find a piece of corn in this brownie?"... or as you put it, there was a lack of : "alienable decision rights over the assets to be traded (to align incentives) and some sort of price revelation mechanism."

It is an information problem.  No one knows how to fix the fucking problem, so the ball-munchers who got us into this disaster need to take their fucking hands off until it is figured out... In the immortal words of John McClane (Die Hard): Asshole? I'm not the one who just got butt-fucked on national TV, *Dwayne*. Now, you listen to me, jerk-off, if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem. Quit being a part of the fucking problem and put the other guy back on!

My pappy always told me, "You fuck me once, shame on you. You fuck me twice, shame on me." 

Let em all fucking burn.

62 Perfect iPod to PC transfer software helps you transfer between iPod/iPhone and personal computer. The iPod to PC transfer can transfer iPod/iPhone music, video, photos, iPod podcast and TV program to PC. It can transfer iPod to PC, transfer iPod to iTunes, transfer between iPod and iPhone, and among several iPods/iPhones. transfer iPod to PC is versatile iPod transfer software to help you backup Songs & Videos from ipod to computer. The iPod to PC transfer software can efficiently transfer iPod music, photos, video and movies. The iPod transfer software connects your iPod to PC with the ability of transferring all kinds of files from iPod to Computer.The FLV to iPod software is a powerful software which can convert FLV to iPod with hight outputquality either extract audio from FLV to iPod supported audio such as AAC, MP3, WAV or convert FLV to iPod supported video formats such as mp4, m4v, mov, H.264, MPEG4, etc......

63 Mac DVD Copy,Mac DVD Creator,Mac DVD Ripper,Mac DVD Burner,Mac DVD Converter,Mac DVD to MOV,Mac DVD to MP4,Mac DVD to iPod,Mac DVD to PSP

64 SWF Converter,SWF to AVI,SWF to MP4,SWF to FLV Converter,SWF to WMV,SWF to MOV,SWF to 3GP,SWF to MPG, MPEG,SWF to VOB,SWF to iPod,SWF to iPhone,SWF to Apple TV,SWF to PSP,SWF to Zune,SWF to MP3,SWF to WMA,SWF to JPG, JPEG,SWF to Gif, Animated Gif,SWF to PNG

65 Some people like LV handbags,Some people like Chanel handbags,but most popel have been keeping an eye on cheap fashion brand handbags .we often talk about all kinds of designer handbags with my friends,most of my friends also like cheap fashion brand handbags.We admire cheap fashion brand handbags designer who often be able to design so many stylish handbags.We want to be a handbag抯 designer in the future too. In our store online，you can buy all series of cheap fashion brand handbags，include: Louis Vuitton,LV Luggage,LV Wallets,LV Agendas,LV Belts,LV Shoes,LV Accessories,Gucci,Gucci Wallets,Gucci Shoes,Marc Jacobs handbags,Marni handbags,Miu Miu handbags,Mulberry handbags,Prada handbags,Thomaswylde handbags,TOD handbags,Bottega Veneta handbags,D&G handbags,Dior handbags,YSL handbags,Coach handbags

66 Air force 1 shoes
Nike air force one
Nike air force
Air force 1 mens
Air force one
UGG Boots
UGG Australia
UGG Shoes
UGG Sale
Lebron Shoes
Cheap UGG
UGG Boots
UGG Shoes
Discount UGG
UGG Australia
UGG Sale
UGG Online

67 Discount Boots
Womens UGG
UGG Shoes
UGG Australia
UGG UK
UGG USA
discount ugg boots
cheap ugg boots

68 buy Discount Boots
Womens UGG
UGG Shoes
UGG Australia
UGG UK
UGG USA
discount ugg boots
cheap ugg boots
air force 1 shoes
nike air force
air force 1 mens
air force 1 boots
air force onefrom usa

69 discount Discount Boots
Womens UGG
UGG Shoes
UGG Australia
UGG UK
UGG USA
discount ugg boots
cheap ugg boots
air force 1 shoes
Nike air force
air force 1 mens
air force 1 boots
air force onefree shipping

70 Come to our website for shopping with high quality and best service! There have new products,MBT M. Walk
and MBT Lami,Welcome everybody to buy it.

71 Buy discount ugg shoes
cheap ugg shoes
cheap ugg
ugg rainier
buy ugg
ugg usa
discount ugg boots
ugg 5825
ugg shoes sale
ugg sundance
ugg shoes
cheap ugg boots
ugg 5815
ugg sale
ugg uk
ugg knightsbridge
womens ugg boots
ugg boots
ugg australia
ugg 5819free shipping

72 buy [url=http://www.reviewups.com/]discount ugg shoes[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]cheap ugg shoes[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]cheap ugg[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/ugg-coquette-casual-shoes-c-22]ugg rainier[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]buy ugg[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg usa[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]discount ugg boots[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/ugg-classic-short-c-1]ugg 5825[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg shoes sale[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/ugg-sundance-c-5]ugg sundance[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg shoes[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]cheap ugg boots[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/ugg-classic-tall-c-3]ugg 5815[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg sale[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg uk[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/ugg-knightsbridge-c-27]ugg knightsbridge[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]womens ugg boots[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg boots[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/]ugg australia[/url]
[url=http://www.reviewups.com/ugg-classic-cardy-c-2]ugg 5819[/url]from usa

73 Replica Watches | soccer jersey supplier | soccer jersey wholesale | Replica Omega | Replica watches | Movado Replica Watches | Richard Mille Replica | Replica Zenith Watches | Audemars Piguet Replica | Gucci Fake | Replica Aigner Watches | Fake Alain Silberstein Watches | Glashutte Watches Replica | Dolce & Gabbana Replica Watches | Richard Mille Replica Watches

74 Replica Watches | Fake Cheap Rolex | Replica watches | Fake Watches | Replica Cartier | Fake Daniel Roth | Replica Chanel Watch | A Lange & Sohne Fake | Replica Breitling Watch | Cartier Replica Watch | Replica A Lange & Sohne | Replica Porsche Design Watches | Replica Cartier | Patek Philippe Replica | Ebel Watches

75 Replica Watches | Replica Watches | Replica Breitling Watches | soccer jersey supplier | Replica Breitling Watches | Breitling Replica | Cheap A.lange Sohne | Fake U-boat Watch | Replica Montblanc Watch | Replica Calvin Klein Watch | Fake Concord Watch | Ebel Fake Watches | Replica Ebel Watch | Breitling Fake Watch | Cheap Breguet