1

Is Frum angling for a shot at a big spot in the media? He must be because his argument is asinine.

What a smarmy dick.

2 Frum Slams

Who?

3 How can it be that former community organizer Barack Obama learned all he needed to know about the presidency itself in two years of being a do-nothing Senator and eighteen months of gauzy, gassy campaigning, but Sarah Palin would not be qualified to be Vice President by two years of actual governance plus three months of campaigning and another two months of transition?

'Cause she's a girl.  And girls are stupid. And icky.

4 Maybe she wasn't ready to be President, but she was only to be the Vice-President.  I have several dogs and cats that are quite ready to be vice-President.  Hell, Algore did it, I'm sure Pookie and Spot would be all over that position.

5

Frum is a snooty elitist who sticks up for his class first, with ideology obviously a very distant second (and we can see how well he is committed to conservative ideology with his insistence the Republicans become Democrat-lite).  Obama is part of his class, the privileged, Ivy League aristocrat, while Palin (in his view) is a state college rube who couldn't possibly know as much as his benighted self.

In short, many Frum's objections to Palin are, ironically, because she is not one of the "us" as he defines it.

Well, that and the fact that he's a little girly man who's probably never fired a gun and God knows couldn't field dress a moose like Palin can.

6 Not to mention that she's the product of one of those icky land-grant institutions of higher learning. 

7

Hey, if anyone really does think like this -- do Palin and the rest of us a favor and keep a lid on your She's a Good Candidate Because She's a Dummy Just Like Me theories.

Actually, I think you should encourage such thinking by those who would underestimate her.  They willingly disarm themselves, and she has chunks of people like that in her stool.

8

with ideology obviously a very distant second

Not second. Not at all.

Dude's also been going on about how we need to abandon the 'first principles' because they don't work anymore.

9 This is utter BS and you know it, Ace. Every republican is a dimwit. That's a tactic. Did you watch the "How Obama got elected video"? If it's stupid a republican must have said it. They did it to Reagan, Dole, Bush, an Quayle. And Palin is a conservative threat to the neocons, moderates, and every other squishy republican. What a joke.

On common sense alone Palin would have been a better president or vice president. And how much easier would it have been for her to look presidential if she didn't have the half-wits in the McCain campaign running the show. Man, this kind of tear down pisses me off.

10 David frum isnt exactly one of the most liked guys in the republican party right now.  He needs to shut his mouth and move on.  He is such a RINO its sickening.

11

I THINK Sarah Palin was more than ready to be Vice President. And who the hell is David Frum anyway? We can calibrate our “purge them from the ranks” list simply by the ones who attack Palin.

12

America just elected an incoming President who have never had any experience in running even a Banana Republic.

Remember, Joe Biden has an abundance of 'experience' in the Senatorial 'foreign relations' committee however recall his response about Lebanon during his debate with Gov Palin.

Don't forget Gov Palin was ALSO a Mayor.

All Frum and his ilk are doing is to sustain the Liberal Fascist narrative; wonder when Jonah's going to stop covering for his intellectualized academics who are part of the Liberal Fascist problem.

Probably never, associations and cocktails are too important.

VDH however has my respect when during one session of the NR Cruise he openly declared how disgusted he was by the actions of these traitors.  Good on Dr. Hanson for having the courage to do what the other will not.

 

 

13 I learned a lot about conservative pundits this election season.  I learned ... shockingly ... that many are outright snooty elitists.

I also learned that when someone from MY class runs for an office - they aren't considered "good enough".

Wow ... I used to have a favorable opinion of these guys and gals - but now - I won't be supporting them onafuckingthing.

The one think I can thank Obama for - is that his candidacy outed these freaks.  So we now need a war between us morons and the elitists like Frum and Peggy Noonan to see who will control the Republican party.

Guess who will win that war?  There are a lot more of us ignorant bitter clingers than there are of the Snooty Noonans.

STFB

14 Furthermore, based on Obama's "informal" talks on the campaign trail, how can we not conclude that not only is he stupid he may have mental problems?

Example; 57 states?

15 He needs to go back where he came frum.

16

Ace,

 

She has a college degree.  which in the world of thinks makes her more book educated than 80% of the population. 

The problem for people like Frum is that She did not attend "his schools"  which means she thinks different than Bush, Obama, McCain.  She is to Frum too close to the middle class.  She is first generation from the middle class.  Her family are still middle class.  She will govern  has govern with the middle class firmly in mind.  She diesn't care about the upper classes comfort (see oil companies corrupt politicians) 

 

She actually believes the words of our founding fathers have meaning and does not think they are just pretty words to bring out to get elected. 

 

In Short she scares the ruling class.  And make no mistake people like Frum are the ruling class.

Palin offers a revolution for the people.  The eiltes are afraid of that. 

17 You're one of the few people to take The Little Frummer Boy seriously.  What Republicans should be arguing is that we expect Godlike qualifications for the Pres/VP because we've allowed/encouraged them to play God, and if we had the same modest Presidency we had for our first century or so, nobody would question whether an obviously competent governor of Alaska could govern the country.

18

I THINK Sarah Palin was more than ready to be Vice President. And who the hell is David Frum anyway? We can calibrate our “purge them from the ranks” list simply by the ones who attack Palin.

 

Frum is just doing what comes natural to him. He started out as a dentist and he loves giving pain.

19

Not second. Not at all.

Dude's also been going on about how we need to abandon the 'first principles' because they don't work anymore.

Ok, correction - conservative ideology, i.e. the first principles.

20 Sorry, got part of the last post.

21

JS's bs sounds like channeling the (in)famous line from Roman Hruska, defending the choice of SC nominee G. Harrold Carswell, back in 1970:

"There are a lot of mediocre judges and people and lawyers," said the Nebraska Republican. "They are entitled to a little representation, aren't they? We can't have all Brandeises, Frankfurters and Cardozos."

See here.

I'm curious how Biden is more ready to step into the Presidency that Palin is/was.  Three or four decades of buffoonery on the national stage doesn't make you more qualified to be President than does a decade or so of brilliance at the state level.

22

I've seen a lot of Mobys advancing the theory that Palin is a gonner, because she was part of this losing ticket but I think that they are just trying to plant a seed because she is a scary figure to the dems.  I think that if the ticket had been reversed on the day that McCain picked her, she would easily be president elect right now.

The only one in the race that has ever had to run ANYTHING.  Successfully lowered costs and taxes at the city level and the state level.  Can any of the other candidates make that claim.  That could be the central point of a winning campaign, and I guarantee it would be enough to make me vote for her, or almost any candidate that made the claim and could back it up.

And the world and our enemies would either fear or respect us.  Screw this stuff where we want them to like us.  They are not us, and don't have the same interests in mind.  They like us to be weak so that their interests can be pushed forward without the US acting like a world cop.

And I don't think that the arguement that she hasn't been a legislator so might not know how it works is a legitimate one either, since she has worked with city and state legislative bodies and knows well enough how to get things done with those groups. 

Palin/Jindall 2012  (of course i think the Limbaugh/Coulter ticket would have been great this year.  A great communicator and an attack dog VP in the tradition of Cujo)

23 Eh, Frum just a classist/elitist. Take your pick.

And a writer of no particular distinction, he's *okay* like a low carb strawberry beer might be with a plate of CalMex..

More than likely, he had a gig writing like a conservative so he wrote like a conservative without passion. Now he sees a new administration more conducive to his true beliefs and wants to leap on board, get more party invites, etc. A fair-weather friend at best.

Adios, you little bitch.

24 David Frum is a misogynist! Neener-neener!

The last Wal-Mart I was in (SC) was full of Obama tee clad folks. If you can find a non-O tee sporting Wal-Mart shopper, I will gladly accept them as a replacement for the O.

25

Maybe Palin said "no" to a date with Frum back in her single days. I mean this guy just can't get over this. STHU and move on.

26

Frum says she's "one of us"?  What does he mean by "us"?

Frum is OK though.  For a Canadian.

27 Neo-cons (or, defense-conscious liberals) hate cons. They have been defeated, and are looking for someone to blame. 

No one ever blamed Edwards for 2004, Lieberman for 2000, Kemp for 1996, etc etc.

Why is it different now? Someone's worldview was beaten, broken, disparaged, and put out to pasture.  Neoconservatism is dead, and never coming back, and that hurts.

28

He's a fucking Canadian.  I don't care what he thinks.

29 #16: Absofreakinlutely.

PALIN 2012

(Otherwise you hate women. HA!)

30

What "consevative decay"? We've got full on RINO/moderate decay and a lost election to prove it.

Hell, we had Mister RINO himself as the Republican standard bearer and we all know how well that worked.

Ugh, me like Palin. She kill own food like me. Not go ivy college like me. Shop walmart like me.

31 I don't know how anyone who watched Governor Sarah Palin's outstanding performance in that VP debate could impugn her intelligence.  I thought she was brilliant, and that's not a word I throw around a lot.  Fuck David Frum and all those elitist assholes (from someone who actually *did* go to their ivory tower schools).

32 What does Moby mean? Specifically.

33 Don't worry, Frum. You were never one of us.

34 Frum can bite my shiny metal ass.

35 I think Sarah Palin was uprepared for Washington in one crucial respect: She wasn't ready for the sheer viciousness and bloodlust that was about to come her way. She left herself open to attack because she had no idea what kind of attacks were coming.

36  "JS," who may have been a moby, for all I know -- advanced the worst possible argument in favor of her. To paraphrase, he claimed she was a good candidate precisely because she wasn't particularly smart, because she was just like the average housewife standing in a line at Wal-Mart -- of average intelligence. Maybe a little lower.

And that, he contended, was a good thing. After all, how could she represent average-intelligence-or-lower voters if she weren't average-intelligence-or-lower herself?

Gotta be a moby.  Its never about the intelligence argument when saying a candidate it representative of a group people.  Its more about the class of person she's grown up as or being seen as holding the same values.  And not being seen as a career Washington politician.  Its not a matter of equal intelligence.

Besides would it really be bad to have the average housewife from Wal-Mart in high office.  They are probably more aware about living on a balanced budget, and explaining to little Dick and Jane that they just can't afford every new toy in the store.  We can't say the same about the idiots in DC.

37

And yet "smart guys" like Joe Biden urge wheelchair bound guys to stand up

38

By the way, this reminds me of a joke.

Q: Why did the New York Times call the Republican writer "erudite"?

A: Because he quit the National Review and voted for Obama.

39 We can calibrate our “purge them from the ranks” list simply by the ones who attack Palin.

This is a good idea.

 

40 There certainly was a dummy in this race. Four letters: J...O...E.

41

Look back at the Harriet Miers to Supreme Court situation.

Many people had good reasons to oppose Miers.  Frum got personal.  Compared her to Caligulia's horse and Barney the First Dog.

That was Frum's first high profile dissent from a GOP nomination.

Now Palin is the second.

Is it because they are women or Christians or non-Ivy League?

 

42

I firmly believe that Frum, Noonan, Parker, et al are using the intelligence argument as a cloaking device...the real issue is she has lived her pro-life principle in the most visable way possible.  Several offspring topped off with a special-needs child.  Be pro-life, just to BE PRO-LIFE. 

Abortion is the number one issue of our time, culturally, politically, legally.  Many on both sides of the aisle will never vote for someone who is pro-_____.   They may not declare it brazenly, but their actions speak volumes. 

There is no getting around it and until the R's embrace this fact and determine how to make being pro-life politicaly feasible (make it a state's rights issue, remove all federal money without making it illegal, etc) we'll struggle to move the country back to the right.

43 Why is it that those who claim that Palin dragged down the Republican ticket always ignore the blithering idiot that is Joe Biden?  The fact that most of his appearances were in front of 100 people where he would spout something assinine and then go into hiding for a few weeks was virtually ignored by the media and jerks like Frum.  When Frum can explain how Biden wasn't a drag on the Dem ticket then I'll listen to his crap theories on  Palin.

44

Despite all the bitching, you can't take away from what she has accomplished in her life. With no trust fund, Chicago political machine, or high level connections. A true citizen politician. Her only crime, answering a call to serve. So here's a big "kiss my ass" to all the post election quarterbacks that have never thrown a pass in a game. She deserves better that the collection of bitchers, whiners and moaners that make up the electorate and political system.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

45 CB, I think a lot of people judged her based on the Gibson and Couric interviews. I cringed watching the Gibson interview and ranted about how horribly edited it was. But watching that interview didn't change my support or admiration for Gov. Palin.

My friends, however, not so much. With the exception of one (who still didn't care for her, but didn't doubt Palin's intelligence due to her being a governor), all of my friends looked down on her as being stupid and a hick. Her impression was based mainly on the Couric interview. When I told her how horrible that and the Gibson interview was because they were trying to play "gotcha" with her, she dismissed it as conservative rantings. There's no liberal bias in the media, you know. Her accent put a lot of people off too, as it reinforced their hillybilly image of her. Most of the arguments I heard against her were superficial at best and downright catty at worst.

I'd like to see more Palins in Washington. It's obvious the entrenched do nothing but perpetrate the system as is. And to all the people bitching about how we need more outsiders and "change," Palin was your chance. Instead you went for the guy who talked the talked, but sure as hell can't walk the walk.

While I'd love to see her run for President in '12, I wonder if she really could pull it off. Women are their own worst enemy. I wonder if she'd split the female vote neatly down the middle. Or at least, neatly down red and blue lines.

46

People who actually know Palin almost all say that she is very smart.  For example:  http://tinyurl.com/6dbxzt.

 

 

47 I thought I was a male chauvinist pig until this election brought the real thing out in the form of neo-con scum and leftists. I don't hold a candle to those boys and girls.

I was a big fan of Margaret Thatcher and she was no beauty, so trying to claim that Sarah Palin's appeal was based on sex is absurd (some have claimed just that). Sarah Palin certainly brought the cockroaches out into the sunlight and that is a good thing, though I have doubts as to whether the GOP is capable of reforming itself.

Sarah Palin's great sin is being an outsiders who isn't ashamed of herself and isn't desperate to embrace the values of her betters.

48

I'm actually a lot more worried about the reality that Biden will shortly be "a heartbeat away," than with Frum's and others' backward-looking masturbations (so to speak...) about Palin.

49 I saw Harriet Myers mentioned... I still think she was a head fake and Alito was the choice all along. Alito was the better choice, too.

50 Actually, Frum said in one of his National Review posts that he was voting for McCain.  (That a NR writer would have to come out and actually reassure the readers of that speaks volumes about Frum.)  Both he and David Brooks (and Noonan) never pass up an opportunity to gratuitously take a swipe at Palin.  There's some unhealthy obsession going on there, but I can't quite figure out what it is...

51 When I say the people bitching about needing outsiders and change, I'm not referring to anyone on this blog. Just a general "you." Mostly the ones who voted for Obama.

I'm seeing a lot of shirts with Obama's face on them. Like Che shirts but complete with some lofty quote from a speech. It's a leeeeeettle creepy. I don't see anyone wearing Bill Clinton shirts. Or JFK shirts. Is my O armband coming in the mail soon?

52 alito and roberts - thank you GWB

53 I came to dislike Frum immensely years ago after reading The Right Man. It was self reported as a positive book about GWB but it was only a book full of back handed compliments and a book full of himself.   I threw it right in the garbage after reading it and have been an anti- fan since. 

54

The fact that these people completely ignore her record prior to her VP nomination astounds me - as if, like Athena, she had sprung full-formed from the head of McCain on August 29, 2008. The only time they mention her prior record to bring up the Tasergate nothingburger, or Daily Kos fantasies like rape kits and book burnings. All her actual accomplishments are ignored or damned with faint praise.

Couple of factors at work here...I think the primary is the social class aspect, and the secondary is that she's obviously a believing religious person. People like Frum think religion is OK so long as, you know, you just don't take it too seriously. It's cynicism and anti-religious bias.

55

@ 44 - Posted by: Wolverine at November 18, 2008 03:32 PM

 

What you said - all of it!

56

Posted by: Jim62sch at November 18, 2008 03:39 PM

 

Yup!

57
Frum is a Canuck (sorry, Christoph) by origin, but a naturalized US citizen. He was also a speechwriter for Dubya; his principal claim to fame is having coined the "Axis of Evil" tag for Iraq, Iran, and N. Korea that Dubya used in his State of the Union address in, I believe, 2002. (I quote from memory.) Being a professional spewer-forth of opinions, he'd be blowing up his career if he dared to defend her.

Maybe he really does consider her stupid; small wonder, considering that she talks like an icky western Canadian, instead of like an Ontario weenie like Frum himself.

58

re: "Does Frum simply assume, absent contrary compelling evidence, that Christians = Dumb?"

 

That's been my suspicion throughout this campaign that "non-intellectual" = code word for "church-going Christian" (versus, nominal Christian who patronizingly pays lip-service to said category but is, at heart, a secular humanist)

59 #55 forgot to give proper credit to Teddy Roosevelt for the last part. Sorry.

60 Duh, Frum can clearly prove her lack of intelligence.

She thinks the State Constitution trumps her ideas, as she vetoed a bill overturning a state court ruling on Constitutional grounds.

She thinks the will of the people trumps her ideas, as she wouldn't "demand" Stevens resign if elected (given the vote as the "will of the people") regardless of her personal opinion.

How can you trust someone who doesn't believe themselves so super-smart that they're willing to ignore every rule, law, Constitutional provision and the people to run their ideas roughshod over the nation?

Obviously Frum is right.  Obama, McCain, Biden; these are smart guys who will ignore every rule in place to do what they want because they know they're right.  I bet Frum is that way himself.

So she must be stupid.  Only possible explanation... If you're an overinflated self-involved egotistical windbag, then anyone who doesn't push their ideas over something piddly like a State Constitution must be a weak minded idiot for not doing what you'd have done in their place; right? 

61

I've never understood the (conservative) hostility toward Sarah Palin. By whatever metric you care to use (social, fiscal, personal) she was more conservative than John McCain. I suspect that the so-called "brain trust" of the GOP disliked her because she's wasn't smart enough. Not Ivy League enough, dear boy!

Apart from Noonan, that is. I think old Peggy simply dislikes Sarah Palin on a green-eyed and feminine level that has little at all to do with politics.

Frankly, when I cast my vote for McCain/Palin it was the Palin part of the ticket I was voting for. I suspect the same was true for a lot of people.

62

Frum has also been mocking the "Say It Louder" Republicans... you know the stupid ones that want to get the conservative message out there, because they believe it will resonate with actual Americans.

Seems Davey has decided for us that since the MSM won't let the conservative message through between the critical stuff like the coverage of Obama's hoops skillz, the conservative message must be fatally flawed, so we need to become more liberal.  That's thinking I don't need, Davey, and you're a "thinker" I don't need, either.

Davey has started to think like the MSM elites he wants to join.  I regard the MSM elites as the deadly enemies of free thought in this country, and he wants to get in tight with them.  Goodbye... you and Johnny can go walk into the sunset together, and don't come back.

63 Frum just wants to be invited to a cocktail party sometime in the next four years.

64 I offer my <a href="http://tinyurl.com/6z24cy">original thoughts when he chose her</a>.

They haven't changed one iota.

65 Re: 11 Vic: "We can calibrate our “purge them from the ranks” list simply by the ones who attack Palin. "

I read on anaolgy another blog (either American Thinker or Spectator) that Palin is the holy water from which we can find the vampires in our midst.

66 http://tinyurl.com/6z24cy

GAH!

67 Abortion is the number one issue of our time, culturally, politically, legally.  Many on both sides of the aisle will never vote for someone who is pro-_____.   They may not declare it brazenly, but their actions speak volumes.

Hammer, I could not disagree more.  I talked myself hoarse with so many people prior to this election.  Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973.  Ever since then (35 YEARS), dems have used it as a scare tactic.

It's a load of crap.  Even if Roe were overturned, it would simply place this matter back on a state level, where it actually belongs anyway. 

68 Is it true that David Frum has the collagen from aborted Peruvian babies injected into his lips?  I think I read that somewhere.  I'm just asking.

69

70

I heard the joke "Africa is a continent not a country" from the visiting priest at Mass yesterday. (NOT the pastor, and not during the homily, for both small mercies I thank G*d.) Much laughter from the pews.

I murmured "nice cheap shot; she never said that" strategically loud enough to be heard by those around me but not so it would sound like heckling.

71 I've never understood the (conservative) hostility toward Sarah Palin.

Posted by: Monty at November 18, 2008 03:45 PM (4Pleu)

Don't think there was much of any any conservative hostility towards her. There was RINO, neo-con, and leftists hostility, but very little actual conservative hostility.

72

OT just a bit, but has anyone else notice that Goldberg cannot write a column or post without acknowledging the possible legitimacy of the other side's argument?  It's become part of his writing style.

If you want to argue she wasn't prepared to be President McCain's understudy, fine. That's certainly a legitimate argument (and there are legitimate responses to it).

73

I still don't get it.  I'm a Harvard-educated gal who has spent most of my life on the East Coast, and I love Sarah Palin.  I would vote for her again in a heartbeat.  I admire the hell out of her for getting in the arena, for showing an unreal amount of class and dignity in the face of the worst smear campaign in U.S. history, and just for being an inspiration to so many young women and paremts of special needs kids.  She is a rare talent and leader. 

I could never fathom tearing someone down who has done what Sarah has done - taking on one of the most corrupt political establishments in the country and achieveing startosperich popularity in her own state, while still being a real mother to five children.  From now on, I choose to stop reading anyone who does so.  They have only tarnished themselves in my view.

74 #70

I hope you kicked his ass right out of his robes afterwards.  Kicking his ass right out of his robes during his "message" would maybe seem... rude.  Celibate or not,  the guy's a fuck-stick.

75 For reasons that are obvious, I think this is pretty much the worst possible defense of Sarah Palin I've ever heard (so much so I wonder if this isn't being offered by a clever moby to reduce support for her).

He isn't the only one. Many a poster here and on other forums who I have no doubt support Palin do her no favors in the way they praise her. They are patronizing, condescending, and sexist in their praise/support of her. If you really support her, think before you post.

76 I'm not sure what Frum's game is.  I guess he's trying to work himself out from having had a bit of responsibility for the Bush disaster.

Which, of course, makes his attitude re Palin no less disgusting.

77 #73

You obviously didn't take the right classes and don't live in the right neighborhood.

78

"...Palin is the holy water from which we can find the vampires in our midst."

That is such an excellent suggestion!  I'd love to go down to the hardware store for some stakes and a sledgehammer, and begin applying it immediately.  I live in a target-rich environment.

79 Frum got canned from NR, I hope.

80

Re: mare 32 "What does Moby mean? Specifically."

"Moby" is a synonym for a troll or mole. It is named in honor of a musician who encouraged his dem fans to infiltrate rep boards & spread unsubstantiated rumors & outright lies about rep politicians.

 

81 What planet is David Frum from?

I just think thats' fun to say.  Try it yourself - David Frum-from!  It reminds me of "The Little Drummer Boy."

"Come," he told me
Fa-rumpa Frum Frum
To mock the bourgeoisie
Fa-rumpa Frum Frum
My tritest wit I'll hurl
Fa-rumpa Frum Frum
At that A-K guv'nor girl
Fa-rumpa Frum Frum
Rumpa Frum Frum
Rumpa Frum Frum
Elitism is such fun
Fa-rumpa Frum Frum
For David Frum

82 'Cause she's a girl. And girls are stupid. And icky. Posted by: David Frum

Frum is into the equine-look.

83

I'm not sure what Frum's game is.  I guess he's trying to work himself out from having had a bit of responsibility for the Bush disaster.

What disaster?  

84

I'd love to see Frum or any of his ilk debate Camille Paglia about Palin.

85

I'd love to see Frum or any of his ilk debate Camille Paglia about Palin. 

86

polynikes 72 - "has anyone else notice that Goldberg cannot write a column or post without acknowledging the possible legitimacy of the other side's argument?  It's become part of his writing style. "

There was a lot of this in Liberal Fascism: "I'm not saying that [x] was like Hitler. But, like Hitler..."

He writes like a courtier who has to deliver unpleasant news to the King. At least he does deliver the news consistently.

87 Thank you, adagioforstrings.

88 So, Frum is of the opinion that we should continue electing persons of higher pedigree (and I use that term very loosely for the sake of argument) mirroring his own experiences and indoctrination because that has been working so well, that a Palin is too much of an aberration to handle?

Has he been watching D.C.? At all? It's a detached bubble of legalized criminality that does nothing but grow in power and authority, and the answer is, "Sure, let's keep cultivating and selecting actors from the same stash as before and following their/my collective guidance because it's wisdom incarnate. Why just look at it and marvel at its crapitude brilliance!"

For a learned guy, he's alarmingly dumb. I'd trust two random morons (like from this site and not the type exhibited in that Obama-supporter video) over Obama, Biden, McCain, and a whole laundry list of chosen ones.

But here's the thing: Palin is sharp, capable, honest, accomplished, and genuine. No one else who ran for the Executive had those collective traits, and Frum is positing a disingenuous argument to suggest Palin's one of us since "we" don't possess those traits or tangible skills but instead are wed to God issues. How pretentious. She's one of us because she can most closely associate with our troubles and government's shortcomings because she is living under its constraints most acutely... just like us.

Frum is yet another D.C. bubble boy used to having the remote control to change things. Well, we'd like to change the channel. We are Spartacus Costanza.

89 Wait, the bald douchebag, Moby?

90

I agree that Palin was not ready for a national candidacy. She did a pretty good job considering that, unlike many VPs, she hadn't already been a national-level pol or a local who was already running for a national spot when selected.

She seems bright enough to get it, if given the opportunity. I don't agree with her social con beleifs but am partially (and only partially) persuaded by reassurances that she does not necessarily see them as fit subjects for government regulation or action.

She does seem to have a firm idea of who she is and what her values are that seems rare among pols. That can't be learned (you can learn to fake it, I suppose) the rest can.

91 Hey, David why not heckle the asshole?

92

Wolverine said it best. 

From my vantage point, there are tens of thousands of men and women similar to Palin in the business world.  They have incredibly flexible minds, depth of understanding and mental capacity.  My supervisor at this point in time is nearly a Palin clone.  She's brilliant, from a farm background, midwest Jesuit Masters, and dragged herself up to a corporate position in remarkably short order in a male-dominated environment.  There's no doubt in my mind that she could run a state or serve as vice president just as many of my male business associates could.

It is difficult to conceptualize how stupid liberals believe Americans are.  The opposite is true.  Sarah is what she is, an American who saw problems in her community and state and fixed them.

93

CB #67

My point is that many "moderate" voters (especially females) who have conservative economic leanings will never vote pro-life...this is why Frum and the gang who want to chase these voters say we have to "expand the party", ie nominate a pro-abortion candidate.  

I agree that the demos use overturning RvW as a scare tactic...which lends weight to my post.  Until we can make a sound argument that voting pro-life doesn't mean the prisons are going to be full of women who sought an abortion, we're losing the battle.

In my view, abortion should not be a federal issue, no tax money should be used to fund abortions, and we should work to minimize the number of abortions, not just say abortion should be rare.  However, I'm not prepared to "make" a female have a child in cases of rape, incest, or mother's health.  Still, stastically those cases amount to very very few of the actual abortions.  Abortion is used for birth control...it's not even debatable.  For some reason we've been unable to formualte a winning political and practical approach.  Until we do we'll be slowing losing the culture and electoral war.

94 Re: 89 mare: "Wait, the bald douchebag, Moby?"

Objectively, Moby is bald. I suppose it's subjective exactly how douchebaggy he is.

95

He writes like a courtier who has to deliver unpleasant news to the King. At least he does deliver the news consistently.

Posted by: David Ross at November 18, 2008 04:06 PM (GwV+j

That a good description.  I also agree that he is one of the better writers and thinkers out there but this offend no one style is kind of annoying.

96

In short, many Frum's objections to Palin are, ironically, because she is not one of the "us" as he defines it.

 

Nailed it.

97

freaking sock freaking puppet. 

98

91 mare, because storming off or making a scene isn't something I like to do in a church, even if it's toward the end of the service and not technically during the Mass.

I believe I will register a complaint today though. I'd rather he was at home with his no-doubt extensive collection of Abercrombie & Fitch catalogues than snortling about stoopid Republicans in front of a congregation.

99 Hey, Ace! Palin is going to be at CPAC. As last year's CONSERVATIVE BLOGGER OF THE YEAR, I'm sure you'll be invited to the cocktail party in her honor. At least try to get your picture taken with Piper and maybe an autograph.

100 Hammer, I agree completely with your last post.  I have known many wome who have used abortion as birth control.  I don't think there should be one nickel of federal funding available for it.  Simply, it belongs on a state (or even local) level. 

I do think, however, that one of the absolutely stellar things about Sarah Palin is that she is a person of absolute integrity.  She lives her beliefs, whether that is convenient or not, and for that I admire her (and others like her) immensely.  But she has also made it quite clear that she does not consider it her role to shove her beliefs down anyone's throat.

I strongly believe that we cannot legislate "morality."  I am old enough to remember "back alley" abortions for the poor girls and girls from more well-off families getting sent out of the country for the procedures.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle, not with abortion, not with nuclear energy, not with drugs, not with homosexuality.  It can't be done.

As someone very impressively stated in a previous post, it would be so terrific if we could just, once in a while, elect someone who actually did what they said they were going to do while they were campaigning.  That would be as refreshing as it is rare.  But I think Gov. Palin is exactly that kind of person.

101 ALDO #46: LINK

"Sarah Palin's a Braininac"

That's from Ms. Magazine's  former editor, a hard core lib to boot.

Ppalin's no dummy, just (honestly) ignorant of a few aspects of international politics and over-coached to the point of stuttering. 

102

You know that in his first two pro NBA games, Greg Oden, the first pick in the '07 draft, only scored three points?

Obviously he's a horrible basketball player.

Or, it could be that being relatively new to a level he is not familiar with, he was still trying to get his feet, and made some natural errors, but with his potential will someday be one hell of a basketball player.

Same with Palin. She was thrown into the deep end to sink or swim, and at first she had an ugly dog paddle going on. But she eventually swam pretty well, and pretty much kicked ass by time of the debate.

She now has four or eight years to study, govern her state, and come back prepared to go through the primary campaign and debates against other future stars of the GOP like Jindal, Pawlenty, etc.

103 I think that the ball is in Mrs. Palin's court. Not ours, not Mssrs. Frum, Brooks or Noonan's. If she can take it to the other side and score, we'll soon forget these anklebiters. Nevertheless, these shots at Mrs. Palin are helpful to know who our allies are and who are the tools.

I agree that the root cause of Palin Derangement Syndrome (so-called conservative commentator variant) is the fact that she's one of those damn Christers. Had she remained in Alaska the last few months, these tools would have been writing the same essays with Mike Huckabee's name. I suppose they already had their essays written months back and just did a hasty search-and-replace.

The reality that they ignore at their peril is that Mrs. Palin is not Mr. Huckabee and she is much more capable of stirring passions.

104

Re: mare 32 "What does Moby mean? Specifically."

"Moby" is a synonym for a troll or mole. It is named in honor of a musician who encouraged his dem fans to infiltrate rep boards & spread unsubstantiated rumors & outright lies about rep politicians.

Not quite.

Moby is not a synonym for troll, rather it is a subset of it. A certain variety of troll who pretends to be a conservative and then says things to intentionally discredit himself (and his 'fellow' conservatives by association).

For instance, Steven Colbert's mini-O'Reilly act is basic the worlds biggest Moby.

Similar but distinct from the recently observed 'concern troll' who also pretends to be a conservative, but does so to say things that destroy morale (express concern) rather then discredit the group he falsely alleges to be member of. The target audience is different.

105

 many "moderate" voters (especially females) who have conservative economic leanings will never vote pro-life...

 

I've never seen the slightest evidence that this has any truth to it. The typical "moderate" voter is ignorant of any issues and votes on solely on emotion.

 

106

If you like Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber - check out Corey the Driller ...

http://tinyurl.com/5z6cke

 

107

I don't know who decided to throw her to the wolves (Gibson and Couric) before she was ready, but they should be strung up. It was an idiotic move.

She is not only wicked smart, she handled herself so well. I would have smacked those granny glasses off the condescending Gibson in the first few minute of him looking his nose down at me. Seriously. I would have. On national TV.

It wasn't about her being like us intelligent wise, it was that she lived like us. All of us would believe that she did go to Walmart to shop for groceries. Who of us would believe Pelosi and Hillary EVER did that. Not one of us.

Ace is right. She stood up to the big boys in Alaska and governed beautifully. But no one in the media wanted to look at that. The left and the media hated her the moment she said she was pro-life and showed up with a down syndrome baby. THAT is why they think she is stupid.

It's all about snobbiness, on the right and the left I'm afraid.

Palin was ready for the run, but they didn't prepare her for the snarling wolves (the media). Even given that, she did remarkably well.

She is the real deal.  

108 I learned a long time ago that the best way to deal with an ankle biter is to kick'em in the teeth. 

Frum who?  Oh. Well, he just pissed all over himself.

109 David Ross:  I'd rather he was at home with his no-doubt extensive collection of Abercrombie & Fitch catalogues than snortling about stoopid Republicans in front of a congregation.

There's a special layer of hell reserved for child molesters and priests who are complicit in the murders of babies.  Occasionally, they're the same people.  (Yes, I do believe not opposing abortion makes one complicit in the act, and I believe voting for people who support abortion makes you complicit in the act.)  Nothing infuriates me more than Birkenstock-wearing, huggy, peacenik priests who can somehow internally reconcile pro-choice beliefs and Catholicism.  That, and how some priests can publicly adopt positions contrary to Church teaching.

110

I saw the Grammies in February 2001; Robbie Robertson snarked that Leonard Peltier didn't get a pardon because he wasn't "Marc Rich enough". The sleaze of Clinton's exit turned off the Left, hardcore. I suspect it cost Hillary the nomination in fact...

But it's okay when the Messiah does it, by definition.... right?

111 Ignore 110. Shit. Wrong article

112

I strongly believe that we cannot legislate "morality." 

 

Not this crapola again. I'm constantly amazed at how left-wing the on-line world is. The left-wing blogs and commenters are well to the left of the Democratic Party. And the right-wing blogs and commenters are well to the left of the GOP.

FYI, all of government is about legislating "morality". Those wacky ideas that there are rights to free speech and to bear arms are moral ideas. That stuff about rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happieness" is moral stuff. The proposition that you have a right to keep what you earn is a moral proposition. All societies are founded on the legislation of morality.

 

113

#105 flesner

Actually, post #90 seems to be an example. 

Palin scared pro-abortion women, if you look at the data on the female vote I'm not sure how you can come to any other conclusion. 

I would agree that younger "moderates" vote on image and style. 

114 I tend to be a libertarian on social aspects and conservative on financial, so I don't know if that makes me a moderate or what. However, I am pro-choice, but I have no problem voting for a pro-life candidate. I disagree with Palin's stance on abortion, but she hasn't tried to force her views on anyone through legislation as far as I know, unlike half the politicians and courts in CA. I never fall for the idiot chain mails that get circulated claiming that any Republican president is going to overturn Roe V. Wade. So what if it's overturned? It'll go back to the states. I have no problem with that.

But that's one of the problems with the party, isn't it? The pro-choice conservatives (is that an oxymoron?) won't vote for the pro-life candidates and vice versa. See Romney and Guiliani as examples. And if the Republican party/conservatives keep being defined that way in the media, half the battle's already lost.

115 Flenser, you are deliberately misconstruing what I said.  Oddly, I am one of the most politically conservative people on this earth and my main concern is getting government out of our lives to the fullest extent possible, while preserving the union.  Trying to go beyond that is what puts us in the same nasty, tepid bathwater with the libs and all their meddling bullshit.

116

Palin scared pro-abortion women

 

Pro-abotion women would not have voted for McCain regardless of who his running mate was.

 

Actually, post #90 seems to be an example

 

Post #90 was written a a male lawyer in Portland, OR. I don't see any connection whatsoever to females who are economically conservative. So it's not an example.

Even if it were an example, you can't argue by anecdote.

117 It's always funny how Mobies trolling in blogs somehow believe they are smarter than a woman who took on her own party to become governor of America's largest state.

118 Wherestherum, I agree.  Anyone who chooses a candidate based on the abortion issue has their head up their ass.  Period.  (I'm not saying that's what you said . . . just saying I agree with your post).

119

Flenser, you are deliberately misconstruing what I said. 

Really?

my main concern is getting government out of our lives to the fullest extent possible, while preserving the union.  Trying to go beyond that is what puts us in the same nasty, tepid bathwater with the libs and all their meddling bullshit.

So how did I "misconstrue" what you said? You just repeated the same crapola.

120 And as someone pointed out on another thread awhile back: social conservativism /= Republicanism. Look at the Prop 8 melee. Blacks and Hispanics tend to be socially conservative but they almost always vote Democrat. So while they voted in support of 8, they also voted for Obama.

121

I strongly believe that we cannot legislate "morality." 

So you're cool if I murder some dude and take his stuff?

ALL laws legislate morality. I'd go a step further to say laws create morality.

It's wrong to shoot people in the face for calling you a poof because it's illegal.

Back when it was legal (dueling), it was the right honorable thing to do.

You cool with dueling by the way? Cuz if you are, I know I am, I'd like to shoot you for saying we cannot legislate morality.

I expect you to rebut my argument at 3:05 behind the swingset with a fully loaded .357, or die trying.

122 Flenser, Hammer:  NOBODY is "pro-abortion."  The very term is inflammatory and you do yourselves and your arguments a great disservice by inserting it into the dialog. 

123

NOBODY is "pro-abortion." 

That's a lot of bullshit.

NARAL and Planned Parenthood are pretty much pro-abortion. Hell, PP is in the business. No abortions, no paychecks.

124 NOBODY is "pro-abortion."

I disagree.  Taxpayer funding of abortion is an attempt to maximize its practice within the appearance of free choice.  People who push for third party funding are pro-abortion, just as anyone who pushed for third party funding of automobiles is clearly pro-car.

125

as someone pointed out on another thread awhile back: social conservativism /= Republicanism

Conservatism is a political philosophy. There is no such animal as "Republicanism", since the Republican party is simply a vehicle which various political philosophies use to try to get their way. So your not-equals statement might as well run "a dog /= a poem".

 

126 Actually, CB, I wonder if there is a fringe on the left that is actually pro-abortion in the way that Margaret Sanger was. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people that far out who do see it as a way to cull certain parts of the population. The Chinese still enforce their one child rule that way.

127

There's a SHITLOAD of people who are pro-abortion, and want them to be cheap, quick, easy and plentiful.

Most people who are not pro-life don't have much of a 'problem with abortion'.

The people that do say they are 'personally against abortion' but not politically against it, are your basic 'moderates' who's heads are mushy.

WHATS WRONG WITH IT?

Either it is murder, or it isn't. Pick one. If it is, it's wrong, and should be illegal.

If it's not murder, WHY the fuck would you be personally against it? Who cares?

Are you 'personally against appendectomies'?

Like I give a fuck if you want your appendix removed. There's nothing morally wrong or bad about removing an appendix at all.

Why do you want to have fewer appendictomies and tonsilectomies?

128

#122...CB, you're pretty naive if you don't understand that the far left is fully vested in making every possible abortion a reality.  I choose to avoid "pro-choice" because the agenda pushers on the left are anything but "pro-choice".  I refuse to make nice with people who politically want to destroy many of the foundations and institutions of America's greatness.   

 

#116...#90 was written by a "moderate" who is uncomfortable with Palin's pro-life stance.  There is a radio host in Charlotte who proclaimed on a daily basis that she could not vote for Palin, despite her personal and political accomplishments, because of her "reproductive rights views".  I have little doubt she was not alone in her conclusion. 

Anecdotes, to be sure, but put enough anecdotes together and you get statistically significant numbers. 

129 @ flenser

Ok, fine. How about this: social conservative views /= votes for the conservative party that tends to house more social cons. My point was that people that hold social con views aren't necessarily going to vote for the party that generally represents social cons. Because the Republican party largely relies on the social con vote, the fiscal cons and national security cons get pushed to the side. That, I think, is one of the major problems of the party. I'm not saying push the social cons out, but the social cons need to understand they need to work with the fiscal and national security cons as well.

And, for the record, Republicanism is an ideology. http://tiny.cc/gRmhX

130

...#90 was written by a "moderate" who is uncomfortable with Palin's pro-life stance.  There is a radio host in Charlotte who proclaimed on a daily basis that she could not vote for Palin, despite her personal and political accomplishments, because of her "reproductive rights views".  I have little doubt she was not alone in her conclusion. 

 

Just for your benefit, I'll repeat this one last time.

Single issue pro-abortion voters would NEVER have voted for McCain, because he is anti-abortion. Anybody telling you that "If only Palin was not on the ticket I'd have voted Republican" is not telling you the truth. And you're a world class doofus for believeing them. How can it have escaped your notice that these people lie as naturally as fish swim?

 

 

131 @ The Hammer

But why are they so threatened that their "reproductive rights" will be taken away? I'm "pro-abortion" if you want to put it that way, but if Roe v. Wade were to be overturned tomorrow, it wouldn't affect my life in the least. That's probably true even for those who are so afraid of those "reproductive rights" being taken away. If a woman is determined to get an abortion, she'll find a way to get it (and I'm not talking back alley abortions). Before abortion became a political issue, it was one of those things that women did no one talked about. It's as old as man itself. So I don't understand why it's an either/or issue.

There are way more important things to vote based on, national security and economic sanity being the top two, I'd think. But I notice that the Dems, mostly blue dogs, who are pro-life don't get quite the same treatment in the media. I know they're out there and they get passing mention. So why is it an albatross for Republicans but not Southern Democrats?

132

Because the Republican party largely relies on the social con vote, the fiscal cons and national security cons get pushed to the side.

 

Shut up, you ignorant twat.

I've had a belly full of being lectured on conservatism by the fucking liberals who blew in on 9/12.

The "national security cons" (now there's a misnomer") have been running the show for the last seven years. They are the only people the worthless Bush administration has been catering to.

I say again - I'm amazed at how left-wing the online right is.

 

133

And, for the record, Republicanism is an ideology.

Sweet Jesus, lend me strength ....

If you took the trouble to read your own link, you'd know that "republicanism" is an ideology, not "Republicanism".

"republicanism" has as much to do with the Republican party as democracy has to do with the Democrats.

 

134 Right on, wherestherum! 

And, hey, Flenser . . . there is just no fucking way on God's green earth that you or any government elected anywhere by anyone is going to successfully tell any woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.  Period, end of any meaningful discussion.

We should be talking about free markets and national security and our ridiculously porous borders.  It's people like you who divert discussion from the REAL issues that we CAN do something about.

135 there is just no fucking way on God's green earth that you or any government elected anywhere by anyone is going to successfully tell any woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.  Period, end of any meaningful discussion.

*cough* prostitution *cough*  crack

136

To get back on topic... here's a current Canadian view of Frum. (And the "Canadian Media Genetic Incest Lottery Winner" tag is a reference to a number of Canadian media types who got into the business in high-profile gigs through familial links to the media.)

137 Thanks for calling me names. Because that's a good way to ensure you win an argument.

Save me from self-righteous arrogants asswipes who presume to know everything and God forbid someone else have an opinion. Have a good day flenser. If you can't talk to me civilly, you can shut the fuck up yourself.

CB, you're my homie. =)

138 CB, get over yourself. 


Tell Dr. Tiller he's not pro-abortion.

LOTS of people LIVE to kill "fetuses" in the womb.

The sad fact is they dupe a lot of people for a very, very long time.

Either it's (A) wrong and should not be permitted except as what amounts to self-defense (ectopic pregnancies, etc); or (B) fine and dandy and let's go on our sunshine and rainbow way after each and every one.

The bullshit about letting physically viable babies die in closets just put me over the fucking edge.  I'm not a violent person, but that's getting close to making me one.

139 Oh, and if there is no pandering to social cons in the party, why is abortion even an issue? Why is gay marriage one of the big issues? The media defines Republicans and conservatives on those two issues. Everything else is unimportant.

If salient issues really had won the day, Palin's mayoral and gubernatorial record would have actually mattered and be given credibility.

140 No matter how much you pro-abort idiots want to change the subject, it is abortion that is the #1 cultural and political dividing line right now.  You either suck up your smarmy whining about making conservatives into abortionists, or you go to the side that backs up your point of view on it and try to change their minds about everything else.

It really is the modern equivalent of slavery.  Either the country will be all-abort or no abort (beyond the first 2 months, realistically), but it can't be half and half. 

Abortion is simply a non-negotiable political position, as the conservative Democrats found out.  There are simply no more conservative dems, only "moderates"

141 The Rep party is not "conservative," it is a political party.  It adopts things like abortion and gay marriage bacuse they lead to electoral victory.  If opposition to gay marriage wasn't a salient, winning issue, Prop 8 would not have passed in CALIFORNIA.

142 I think the most schizophrenic facet of the GOP is that those of us who are not on the "religious right" are tolerant and welcoming of those who are, because this is really about politics and governance.  However, the more I read these blogs, the more I realize that the "religious right" are the most intolerant people on the planet.  Not much different than the radical Muslims and the like.

Don't you folks understand that it's not about you and validating your personal religious beliefs?  It's about our country and your intransigence is making it so much harder for political conservatives to join together to save what's left of it.

143 Back on topic...

At some point the suspicion grows: Does Frum simply assume, absent contrary compelling evidence, that Christians = Dumb? The rejoinder would be "Obviously not, William F. Buckley was smart." Ah, but that's why I stuck that "absent contrary compelling evidence" part in there. Sure, someone could disprove a starting assumption. But does Frum begin with that assumption?

The way the media has defined Christianity I think validates that assumption. Christians are dumb, so why should we listen to them? There are exceptions of course, like Catholic Pelosi and Kerry. But how many of us have heard others say in distress, "Bush is a Born Again?!" or "Palin's a fundie Christian who's going to make women stay home barefoot and pregnant!" Christians are seen as idiots who simply follow the dictates of the Bible and its respective church leaders. That view really seems to be a projection of the left and their identity politics leaders a la Jesse Jackson, Gloria Steinem, etc.

144 CB, I'm not a member of the "religious right"

I'm a political observer.

saying "gee, aren't we grand, look how tolerant" while at the same time saying "there is just no fucking way on God's green earth that you or any government elected anywhere by anyone is going to successfully tell any woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.  Period, end of any meaningful discussion" is too fucking precious for words.

Again, get over yourself.  Neither side will give an inch on this, so you either go where your view is in the majority or shut yer yap about it

145 Moronizer, I didn't call you any sort of names, including "religious right."  I guess your ego demands that you assume you were the topic of my post.  However, for someone who grandiosely refers to himself as a "political observer," the name-calling and defensiveness in your posts speaks volumes about you.

146 David Frum needs to have the Jessie Jackson treatment. Chop them off (micro sized) and stuff them in his ear.

147 The inclusion/exclusion part IS the topic. 

Frum, Noonan, Parker, et al would, I would bet money, be all to some extent "sophisticated" pro-abortion people.  That's fine, but they are right that the party left them.  In about 1980. 

The Rockefeller Republicans are never again going to hold the reigns, and the Republican party will either turn to religio-populism or be torn entirely asunder.  The Frum side is bitter, and recognizes that McCain was their last, best hope.

Since the country is so half and half, though, a nice bit of revolution and mass migration might be fun.

148 By 2012, Palin will have had more experience as governor than the last two two-termed presidents.

149 wow, CB I'm crushed.  You have demolished me in an internet forum and saw into my very soul.  Yes, it IS all about me.  Observer is SOOOO grandiose.

How about you address the question, though, namely:

how do you think that on a non-negotiable issue like abortion that your bellyaching, about how wonderful you are and how awful all the fundies are, is going to actually obtain any sort of sway in a political party that relies on the social issues for turn-out and electoral viability in the first instance?

You need the fundies.  It's a questionable assumption that the fundies need you.

150

re, "the fucking liberals who blew in on 9/12" -

And we know what kind of "liberal" really grinds his gears, don't we, fellas? And so it begins features him saying that the antipathy to creationism(!) among secular conservatives stems from a certain religio-ethnic minority which is "viciously anti-Christian for the most part".

151

the more I read these blogs, the more I realize that the "religious right" are the most intolerant people on the planet.  Not much different than the radical Muslims and the like.

And the difference between you and the avergae liberal Democrat is .... what?

there is just no fucking way on God's green earth that you or any government elected anywhere by anyone is going to successfully tell any woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.  Period, end of any meaningful discussion.

And the difference between you and the average liberal Democrat is .... what?

 

 

 

152

Save me from self-righteous arrogants asswipes who presume to know everything and God forbid someone else have an opinion.

 

It's not an "opinion", you dipshit. You confused "Republicanism" and 'republicanism". That is what we call a "mistake".

153 Oh, come on, David.

As if the vast hordes of social cons were anything but vociferously pro-Israel.

The Bush administration, Bush (a goy for all I know) in particular, was never very conservative and never particularly competent.

The creationists are fucking idiots, but they're not exactly the Fourth Reich

(flenser, by all appearances, is pretty bad, I'll grant you, but surely not indicative of anything but himself)

154

moronizer, don't blame me. Don't blame social conservatives. Blame flenser over there; he's the anti-semite.

What I suggest that conservatives not do is to follow his advice.

155

Oh yeah... heh. You've thrown him under that bus already, moronizer. Fair enough and, good for you.

156 Yeah, I had to read your post twice too.  I then went to the link and did a find for "anti-"

Wow.  Just wow.

Thought Cedarford went elsewhere

157

Yeah, what sort of crazy person would say that Jews are liberal and hostile to Christianity? Next thing you know somebody will show up and state that blacks are reliable Democratic voters and that Mormons oppose gay marrige!

 

158 The religious bigotry, class hatred, and outright racism aimed at Sarah Palin is like nothing we've seen since the 19th century.   What is it about "intellectuals" and big city "sophisticates" that makes them think their ignorant and moronic bigotry won't be noticed by everyone else.  These people hate for the same reason any other bigot hates -- because they want to win without argument through the excusion of the other.  And because they chose to be ruled by their ignorant and knee jerk prejudices rather than suffer the inconvience of actually having to think things through and judge each case by its own particulars.

This is the  new anti-semitism, and it's no more pretty than the old.

159

 Blame flenser over there; he's the anti-semite.

 

Actually, you simpering little fuck-wit, I'm anti-liberal. It just happens that Jews are overwhelmingly liberal. Perhaps that somehow escaped your noticed?

160

flenser, by all appearances, is pretty bad,

 

As I say, it's amazing how left-wing the right wing blogs are.

161 flenser, you fuckwit.

Yep, I'm a card carrying ACLU, sodomizing, gay marriage supporting, antigun, big government, commie Zionist sypm. 

You fucking ballless tool.

Not wanting to tar an entire ethnic group under one political brush (especially when it only voted DISPROPORTIONATELY Dem, not EXCLUSIVELY (there's a difference, look it up)), is not "liberal"

It's called "accurate"

Try it sometime.

And if you think conservative = hating jews, just go.

Really, just go.

162

moronizer, somebody suceeded on moronizing you.

You brainless fucking tool.

 

Next up, I suppose you'll be denouncing those who say that blacks voted for the Democrats. After all, technically speaking there were about six blacks who voted for the GOP.

FYI, David Ross is one of those anti-Christian bigots I spoke of. Whatever the topic he can be depended on to show up shitting his shorts with fear of the "creationists". Check out his comment history sometime.

There must be a liberal somewhere you should be blowing right now, isn't there? Besides Ross?

 

163

For a pretty complete breakdown and analysis of the Jewish vote (and various jewish votong blocks) in the last election try this article by Don Feder

http://tinyurl.com/5wpq3g

 

164

And if you think conservative = hating jews, just go.

Christ, you people are stupid. I mean Democratic Underground stupid, legally brain dead stupid, smart as a head of cabbage stupid. It takes stupidity of that level to read an attack on bigotry as "hate".

Why don't you "just go" to the nearest certifed brain replacement center and ask for a new one?

 

165 oooops ... that's voting blocs ... never type a comment right after a hard workout ... doh!

166

After this year’s election – in which Barack Hussein Obama got 77% of the Jewish vote – we can confidently say it never will. Once again, in 2008, most American Jews voted their religion – liberalism.

 

It seems to me that moronizer needs to get in touch with Feder and blast him for his anti-Jewish hate.

167 Certain groups of jews tend to be and vote liberal, just like some liberal evangelicals, whose big thing is the "social gospel and justice" and there are groups that vote conservative

168 Since Feder is Jewish, that would be interesting, although he doesn't have alot of patience for lib reform jews

169 I guess those who were asking for a definition of a "moby" got it in the example of "flenser."

170 the orthodox jews, comparable in some ways to fundamental evangelicals, tend to vote conservative/GOP ... about 25% of the total Jewsih vote, or so as I recall

171 Hearty round of applause for the lovely and astute Andrea Harris!!

172

I've always liked Palin's every woman's background.  Clinton and Obama were regular folk in their youth but by adulthood they were on a political path.  They're both essentially single career politicans/community organizers.  Palin had an adult life outside of politics, like W, but better than W, it wasn't a country club life.  That buys quite a bit of credibility in my book.

173 one jew that strongly supports palin would be pamela geller at atlas shrugs (and all her buds)

174 #172 I agree

175 Aw, thanks, CB. I guess I'm just good at spotting fakes -- much better than at figuring out just where the "hick" is in Sarah Palin's accent. I mean, I grew up in Miami, Florida, a city with a variety of accents on hand to get accustomed to, and as well all of my family comes from places like Tennessee and Virginia, so I thought I knew what an authentic "hick" accent sounded like. But now apparently the clear, round vowels and precise phraseology of a Western-states accent is "hick." Personally I found Palin's speaking style to be refreshing compared to the extruded-through-a-tube Canuckish, crow-like Bostonian, and cat-in-heat New Yorkese that we are offered on a daily basis via the media as the "elite" way to speak. But that's just me.

176

Yeah, anybody who'd sink so low as to say that Jews are liberal is just the very essence of moboydom, no doubt about it.. Especially on a thread where David "I hate the Christofacists" Ross is holding forth,

Have I mentioned before this how amazingly fucking left-wing the right-wing blogs are?

 

177

I guess I'm just good at spotting fakes

No, you stupid little woman, you suck quite badly at spotting fakes.

178 reform jews as a whole ... pretty liberal and they account for most jews in the U.S.

179 We weren't voting for Sarah Palin to be our future president.  These critics look at Palin as if she was supposed to be the leader of the free world.  Palin was running for Vice President, it doesn't make any sense to for the illuminati MSM to put Palin through the same traisl as someone whom we expect to run this country.  According to the Constitution, the Vice President isn't supposed to do much more than preside over the senate.

180

I'm going to stick with my original post that most of the hatred spewed towards Palin is the result of her living her pro-life values in the most profound way possible.  I believe the "elites" on the right oppose her because she's too pro-life and the intelligence line is a red-herring. 

I made my second point about abortion being the defining issue of our time legally, politically, and culturally in order to say that until the R's figure out a way to make being  pro-life more politically practical, we'll struggle to move the country back to the right.  The passion displayed in the blog leads me to believe I'm on the right track.

I believe many "moderates" are really fiscally conservative but are either pro-choice or all out pro-abortion and won't pull the lever for a pro-life candidate.  IMO this makes them one-issue voters, despite any spin to the contrary.

Finally, none of my points are meant to be personal...I don't know any of you well enough to attack you personally, so I'll stick to the issue discussion.  I enjoy reading others points because it helps me work out the articulation of my own principles.  

181

I believe many "moderates" are really fiscally conservative but are either pro-choice or all out pro-abortion and won't pull the lever for a pro-life candidate. 

 

The problem with this is that none of these people seem to exist in sufficient numbers to elect any pro-choice and fiscally conservative politicians, if results are any indication. As I'v indicated above, I don't think that blog comment sections are a representative sample of where the typical voter is.

 

182 The Hammer,

I generally agree with you @180.

I'm one of those small government types who still believes in States Rights. I'll yield to the desires to the social cons (I'm more libertarian here for the most part) if it will grow the platform to force government to act smaller and more locally. That trumps everything except those things explicitly defined in the Constitution sans the penumbras and subsequent laws pulled out of legislative asses and corruptocrats.

Smaller government is my litmus test above all else as its reduction solves so many other ills.

183 #181...I think there are enough of them to make a difference in a close election...even 5-10% of the total matters if they all break left.

184 Palin was not quote prepared...for the MSM attacks. Her problem is that initial impressions count a lot - and she ran into some trouble there. (Note I said impressions, not her actually self.)

She did have a unique asset in her experience with oil, which was a hot topic in the summer, but not so much now, but that's just bad timing.

She needs to come up with a strategy to absolutely kill that old impression during the next few years or she will have a hard time winning national elections.

With the amount of energy and smarts she has, maybe get a PhD in Economics in her spare time, then run on a flat tax/lower spending/pro-growth platform that would blow Obama out of the water. Because in 2012, taxes and spending are going to be one area of prime attack on Barry the Lawyer.

185 I also would strongly suggest that Palin sticks to her "My personal beliefs do not automatically translate into how the law will be interpreted" line and promote strong federalism.

We are going to have a lot of opportunities to shove some Democratic screw-ups down their throat next election if we can do this. You know they will try to ban some video game or something, and we should jump on that kind of issue with this strategy:

I know a lot of center-Dems would love this stuff.

The problem is the social cons don't like this - they want to ban the video games too. (No, not AoS / South Park social cons, but you know, the compassionate conservatives - big government churchies...see Schiavo.)

That sounds rougher than it should. sorry.

186

Smaller government is my litmus test above all else as its reduction solves so many other ills.

 

The only way to get to smaller government is via social conservatism. Or plain old conservatism, as it used to be known. It has been the rise of social liberalism which has fueled the growth of the state.

 

I think there are enough of them to make a difference in a close election...even 5-10% of the total matters if they all break left.

 

We used to win every state in the union without them.

187 "No, you stupid little woman, you suck quite badly at spotting fakes."

Yup, you're authentic all right. I mean, all of Ace's posters regularly call each other "stupid," "brainless fucking tool," and "left wing." Especially in long discussions on how to best roast a hobo. You wouldn't believe how much conflict "apply the barbecue sauce while cooking" versus "apply the sauce only after cooking" causes.

188

At first, they saw her just as a Vice Presidential candidate; one of McCain's life lines, then they looked further and they were scared into conniptions. They've always thought conservatism was the province of dead, old white men. McCain perfectly fit that image; even he was cantakerous enough to tick off the Right. They were geared to expect Richie Riches like Romney, Elmer Gantry's like Huckabee, even  a nice guy, but no Mr. excitement; Joe Lieberman. They never expected that there would be a youthful vibrant self made figure on the right. Then they saw her looks, but also her charisma. Then she introduced her family; and they saw she was not only prolife, but sincere about it. Of course, this set off apoplexy by the likes of Sullivan, Jong, Steinem et al. Then came the convention speech came, (and having forgetting that her training was in broadcasting. She challenged the One's record, she ridiculed the very meaning of community organizing, making oil drilling a valued activities (no reliance on inflated tires? man, I'm really going to hate the next four years) with quiet confidence. Around that time, the reports of the investigations into Alaska bore fruit, the real ones, not the axelturf Alaskan secessionist, rape kits, dinosaur riding ones.

As time went on, a disturbing realization dawned on them. She migght as well be the candidate in the heartland,  as she could draw crowds like the One, (that one speech where MSNBC  and Fox turned away from an Obama speech thirty miles away must have really scared them) She sets off a similar combination of feelings, about patriotism, motherhood, energy, Iraq,  which she

saw as a noble cause. Then would come another wave of junk on Youtube. This scared them even more profoundly, because she woulddn't back down; the insolence of someone not to know their place! Desperation drove the autopsies by Couric and Gibson, the former's queries must have struck her as odd; you can't' figure out Alaska, we can believe you on Iraq? I'm not going to say that Campaign Finance Reform is half baked? and Tina Fey's weird twist on Mean Girls; starring as the head Plastic. The fact that they knew she had beaten Biden's pretense to expertise like a drum; and she wasn't too crazy about the bailout; as it rang false to her entire experience. It was around that time, that they starting shooting her from the "Miguelito Lovelace" angles, focusing on those pumps. Which only enhanced her support among some; but tended to diminish her among the intelligentsia; including our own pretenders. When she wanted to continue the race, not give up promising ground (ie: working class Michigan) lose with dignity; that's when they started hanging the Diva and Rogue tags on her. They thought the wardrobe disclosures would finish her off; and among the weak minded it did. To the others, it ratified her essential down to earth nature

 

 

 

189

FWIW, there's a difference between "street smart" and "book smart."

 

In pecking order, I'd take someone with both as the best President; but I'd settle quickly for "street smart" as the strong 2nd pick.  "Book smart" we already had:  Woody Wilson.

190

I mean, all of Ace's posters regularly call each other "stupid," "brainless fucking tool," and "left wing."

Priceless. Strip out the errors of fact and logic there and you end up with with an empty vacum. Much like the interior of your head.

Ace's posters do regularly swear at and insult each other. And the remarks you cited were written by others here.

191 Yep, you're real all right. A real charmer! Truly, do you talk to your mother with that mouth? (You probably do. That's why you're confined to the basement now.)

192 God if Obama is qaulified to be president then surely Frum is qualified to clean my toilet.

193

I for one enjoy Flenser's comments.  Andrea and CB...not so much.

194 Frum and others like her are a bunch of shallow, shrill, jealous, backstabbing, petty harpies.  They're not fooling anyone.

195

Palin's main problem is that the GOP is full of nutless twits.

If being Prolife is wrong, I don't want to be right.

196 Am I in the minority in thinking any idiot is prepared to be vice-president, and any slightly more intelligent idiot is prepared to be president?

I find it hard to believe that so many people think it's such a hard position to hold, for many reasons that I won't bore you with.  I'm just wondering if others realize it too.

197 Vic@11:  We can calibrate our “purge them from the ranks” list simply by the ones who attack Palin.

YESSSSS!!!

198 unseen@16:  Palin offers a revolution for the people.  The eiltes are afraid of that.

The real ideological battle was never Obama vs. McCain.

It's Ayers vs. Palin.

199 Didn't Frum think Bush had the smarts and experience to be President?

How frickin' dumb is that?

 

200 wherestherum@51:  I'm seeing a lot of shirts with Obama's face on them. Like Che shirts but complete with some lofty quote from a speech. It's a leeeeeettle creepy.

Thank God I live in rural Kansas where I have never seen a T-shirt with Obama's face on it!!

Of course, there's yard signs and bumper stickers (but not many, thank God).

Is there anyone out there besides me who has developed an extremely visceral disgust and loathing of that damn Obama logo? It just looks so..... Maoist.
PLEASE tell me it's only a campaign logo, and we're not gonna have to look at that infernal thing for the next 4 (8? 10???) years! Please??? I'll go frickin' nuts!!!

201 CB@100:

I disagree with you that we can't put the abortion "genie" back in the bottle.
We managed to put the slavery genie back in the bottle about 150 years ago.
Basically the same issue: We decide that one class of human beings has absolutely no rights--that they are the mere property of somebody else.

As for legislating "morality", what other kind of legislating is there? What do you think laws against robbery, assault, rape and murder are, anyway? We all know that our laws are the result of morality being legislated. The disagreement is over whether the unborn child is, like a slave 150 years ago, not to be considered a person with any rights we have to respect.

Finally, I wish everyone would quit gushing over how great Sarah Palin is because she "lives out" her pro-life convictions. Sarah Palin simply did what would have been considered through most of human history the normal, decent, don't-even-think-twice-about-it thing to do. She's not a hero just because she didn't kill her own child. The great atheist Albert Camus once said something to the effect that you know you're living in a really degraded society when people are considered heroes for simply doing the decent thing.

202 THis thread is long dead, but let me jsut say that when you, flenser or whatever, say that ALL jews are to be shunned, when approximately 30-40% voted for the good guys, then you, sir, are an idiot. 

Good day to you, SIR!

Seriously, when blacks vote 95% dem, we can say with relative certainty that in general, blacks are liberal, and we needn't bother with courting such a monolithic constituency.  30-40%?  not such an easy write off.

Not to mention the sheer idiocy of griping about "teh JOOOOS" on a right wing board.  Yeah, you really learned that whole "how to influence people" thing  reel good now, huh?

Re-fucking-tard.

And andrea, he's a tool, but anyone complaining about language here is out to lunch.  You know that's a losing battle.

Finally, as if it mattered, I'm guessing you're so "courageous" as to discuss matters like this loudly, in public, too, huh feltcher?

Yeah, big tough internet guy.

203 wherestherum@126:  I wonder if there is a fringe on the left that is actually pro-abortion in the way that Margaret Sanger was. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people that far out who do see it as a way to cull certain parts of the population.

Yes, there most certainly are. Why do you think so many of the "country club Republicans" are pro-choice?

Years ago, I volunteered at a public hospital for the indigent, on the psychiatric ward. After our shift one night, one of my fellow volunteers asked me if I wanted to come with her to a pro-choice rally coming up that weekend. I was stunned. I told her that I was pro-life all the way, what on earth would make her think I was pro-choice. She said she just assumed I was--because after all, we sure didn't want "these people" reproducing, did we?

204 and for our stormfront friend, let me add that

(to the tune of the bridge over the river kwai song)

Hitler HAD only got one ball
Goering had two but very small
Himmler is very similar
And Goebbels has no balls at all.

205 CB@134:  there is just no fucking way on God's green earth that you or any government elected anywhere by anyone is going to successfully tell any woman what she can or cannot do with her own body

I wouldn't dream of it.

But if she decides she has the right to mutilate, dismember and KILL someone ELSE's body, I will try to defend that person from her violence.

206 CB@134:  We should be talking about free markets and national security and our ridiculously porous borders.  It's people like you who divert discussion from the REAL issues that we CAN do something about.

Guess what. A society that's so dysfunctional that it insists on killing off its own children is a society so sick that it's not going to last much longer anyway.

207 Ace asks:

Does Frum simply assume, absent contrary compelling evidence, that Christians = Dumb?

I think the whole-hearted embracing of Palin by Christians pretty much proves it.

Consider that Palin was just as she is right now, but was, instead, pro-choice.  meaning that she wouldn't personally choose to have an abortion because she thought it was immoral, but she supported every other individual's right to make that decision for themself.  Would the Christians have been so fervent in their support of Palin if that were true?  That's a rhetorical question.

Now are Christians singular in their stupidity?  Of course not.  The Democrats out-did them with their full-throated support for "Chope" candidate Barack Obama.  That's hit-ones-head-with-a-brick stupid.  But it's a very, very human thing.  "The candidate is one of us, therefore, the candidate is good."  It's common.  It happens on the left, on the right, and in the middle,  in every country, everywhere, for all time, and will happen forever.

Ace, you should not be so shocked that Christians are, in fact, human, and will do the stupid things that humans do.  If a candidate gets on the podium and says, "I believe the Bible is God's word!" and a person says, "I'm voting for that person based on that statement alone!" would that not be stupid?  And yet, is it not conceivable?  Or do you think Christians are above that kind of nonsense, that their faith makes them singularly more intelligent than every single leftist on the planet?

208 Moronizer: yeah, it's a dead thread, but I'll reply anyway -- it's not so much the language I object to (lord knows I've used language with gusto), but that flenser's usage has all the hallmarks of a moby trying to imitate the freewheeling style of the other ace of spades crew but not quite doing it right. He may actually not be a moby -- maybe he's just clumsy with language. Jew-haters usually aren't that educated, so we have to at least give him marks for trying.

Anyway, I've been up all night crying because Ziskey doesn't like my writing. Okay, not really. Anyway, I just wanted to put something here so SuprKufr's stereotyped bullshit isn't the last word.

209 In case anybody asks, I do agree that Sarah Palin seems to be one of us.

And the "us" is a group of highly intelligent forward thinking people who think the leftists are running us into the weeds.

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