1 Can't make an hopey-changey world without driving a few industries out of business.

2 Upside down world, part 1,000,001.

3 Watch carefully, this will be used to justify a $100B bailout of the big 2.5 automakers.  Granholm's advising Gutterball on the strategy even now.

4 On the flip side; who cares about solvency when Washington is going to give them 50 billion dollars anyways. You're 20th century notion of profits and good business sense do not fit into a hopey-changey world in which we now live.

5 /Shaking head in utter disbelief

6

It's amusing to watch the different parts of the coalition that elected His Dumbness fight wach other. First the gays vs blacks, next the environuts vs the auto unions. And after that?

Pass the popcorn!

 

 

 

7

 I eagerly await Thomas Frank's next book, "What's the Matter with Michigan?".

Don't worry year or two from now Michigan will be the norm.

8 Why not just give the unions the bailout money and skip the production of these "automobile" thingies? 

9 As an air quality consultant in southern California, I'll guess as to what will happen should our Dear Leader grant CARB the waiver for tailpipe CO₂ regulations...the auto industry will sue CARB (as the air transport industry is contemplating doing right now due to CARB's off road diesel regulation) and the lobbyist in DC will give the administration hell...heck, it is a great time to be a litigation lawyer, I am thinking, lots of lawsuits going around!

10 It's the government's fault now that the U.S. auto industry is a complete fuckup?  Increased CAFE standards have been talked about for years, and the U.S. automakers just chose to hope they could lobby their way out of them, instead of committing money to R&D for better fuel efficiency.

Honda and Toyota have managed to get their shit together, while using a huge U.S. based workforce.  Japanese cars are now built in the U.S. while U.S. built cars are built in freakin' Mexico.  Maybe a kick in the ass is what the assholes running the Big 3 need to get their act together.

11 It's almost like they don't understand economics or something.

That is exactly the definition of "Democrat."

Pronunciation: \ˈde-mə-ˌkrat\ Function:noun Date:17891 a: an adherent of democracy  b: one who has no understanding of economics
2 capitalized : a member of the Democratic party of the United States

12

this will be used to justify a $100B bailout of the big 2.5 automakers. 

 

Impossible! The Dems have crying their eyes out about the Bush budget deficits for the last eight years. Surely a balanced budegt is their top priority?

 

13

But ... I was promised that Obama would lead as a centrist! Every Obama supporter I talk to has told me it would be so! I'm just shocked. </sarcarsm>

I know auto makers are a huge part of our economy, but isn't there a point when they need to change their business model to start making money? This is insanity....

14

One of Michigan's biggest problems is that the state's GOP would need an additional 30 neurons to rise to the level of "clinically brain-dead."  To call it "rudderless" does an injustice to drifting ships.  I'm not the biggest Romney fan, but him moving back to the state would do wonders to revive its fortunes.

The other problem is that the state has been in a recession for about five years now.  The Hope-flavored Kool-aid sits on the shelves, but a lot of us were guzzling the Change variety.  Which means the backlash will be gruesome as hell if the Dems get all of their blinkered ideas into place. 

One final thing:  a lot of Michigan Dems do know that the national party has it in for the Not-So-Big 3, but relies upon old hands like Dingell and Levin to keep the kooks at bay.  Looks like Jackboot John's getting the door and Levin just entered what is likely to be his last term.  Stabenow's marginally effective, but has nowhere near the pull. 

15

3 words -

I'm in charge now bitches!

16 Maybe a kick in the ass is what the assholes running the Big 3 need to get their act together.

Toyota and Honda aren't in bed with labor unions.  THAT is the problem.

You can't make money when $3-5K of the cost of every car goes toward health care plans for UAW members.

17 I'm the last one to defend those cocksucking Liberals, but GM is to blame for GM's problems.

They've had, what, thirty-five years to improve their line so it can compete with foreign automakers? Yet they continued to pump out the same Buick LeSabres and Ford Crown Vics. And they've had plenty of time to make their cars produce lower emissions.

This is what happens when corporations go wild and rape their companies today and forget about keeping them sustainable. With their greed and ignorance they've opened the door for the Democrats to change our entire economy and introduce socialism.

18 I plan to hold off on calling President-elect Obama a dangerous socialist moron until his frickin Presidential-elect socialist moronism becomes actual Presidential socialist moronism.

Thank you.

19 Obama satisfies the wishes of the enviros, and automakers will be kept afloat by bailout after bailout for all eternity, so Michigan stays blue (albeit as a ward of the federal government).  What's not to like?

20 Guys, it's cool.  Just another trillion dollar bailout to pass once they fail.

No biggie.

21

I fear that we may see the modern equivalent of the famines that the communists created as they forced farmers to work according to the mandate of the central government.

Not that we will starve but we may well get to suffer in ways that Americans have forgotten.

22

This is madness!

THIS!  IS!  Socialist government unconcerned with the economy or the well being of its citizens.

Hm... not as dramatic as I hoped. 

23

Am I the only one who thinks Obama will push for costly new standards AND push for a huge bailout of the industry?

(Maybe I should have read the WSJ article.)

24

Toyota and Honda aren't in bed with labor unions.  THAT is the problem.

 

And the Dems solution will be to force them to climb into that bed.

25 Flenser has it exactly on point.

For eight years now, the Democrats have had a policy of automatically contradicting anything the Bush administration did or said, aided and abetted by a sneering press. This, while tough decisions were being made.

Now the time has come to govern. The tough issues are still there, but the question is whether to go through a thoughtful deliberative process -- and probably end up in the same place -- or do a kneejerk reversal -- and probably end up in a worse one.

26 Caller asked Rush why Obama doesn't give each American one million dollars.  Cheaper than bailouts.  Instead of bailing out auto industry give each American a new car at government's expense.

Float that at Kos, and maybe we can start a movement.

27 And the Dems solution will be to force them to climb into that bed.

Sadly, yes.  Good-bye GM!

So it is true that the sole purpose of a union is the protection of the incompetent.  Huh, I just though the local teachers union was an outlier.

28 Exactly. Since The One promised completely contradictory things to several different groups of people, we can expect these time bombs to be going off for at least the first two years of the Dark One Ages.

29
But it is funny how they think "going green" will be good for the economy.
Going Green will be the downfall of the Democrats because it will spell doom for the economy. And we won't have to wait long to see the ramifications of all this carbon emission nonsense; we'll see it in the short-term.

If only we had people in an opposition party who could point out all the flaws of the Democrats "progressive" plan for the economy...

30

Why do environmental groups have such clout that they can get this sort of stuff?  I agree the environment is important, but at the expense of everything else?

31 I was referring to flenser's comment #6, btw. The coalition of "people against Bush" isn't likely to have enough of a common viewpoint to keep together.

32 Simple solution - just stop selling automobiles in California. Oh, and gasoline too, since that's really where all that naughty CO2 comes from. If nothing else, it'll lower the prices on gas everywhere else.

33 I agree the environment is important, but at the expense of everything else?

Because the environment is more important than people.  People just muck everything up.  Go ask your local college professor.

Dems have been loving humanity and hating people for over 50 years.  It ain't gonna change now.

34 Instead of bailing out auto industry give each American a new car at government's expense.

What?  Private car ownership by The Masses™ has to be outlawed to Save the Planet™.

35 Why not go ahead and get it over with - and nationalize the auto industry. Might as well. Does anyone really think the $25B - $100B is going to change anything at the big 3? The top managers are going to give themselves nice golden parachutes and the companies will continue to flail - and what's the incentive to improve? None. They'll just get MORE government money later on (like AIG) bacause they are "too big" to fail. BS. Either let the big three go down the tubes or go ahead and nationalize them.

36 I believe it was Hillary who showed her true colors in '93 when she asked Ira Magaziner, "Am I to be held responsible for every undercapitalized business in America?, in response to his advice that her healthcare plan would doom thousands of small businesses. Hillary was a fucking piker compared to this fellow when it comes to wrecking undercapitalized busineses. God help us that we pine for fucking Hillary and 1993.

37 Increased CAFE standards have been talked about for years, and the U.S. automakers just chose to hope they could lobby their way out of them, instead of committing money to R&D for better fuel efficiency.

How about this: How about no increased CAFE standards?  How about something rational like that?

This is hopey-changey science.  You mandate that science produces product X and just expect them to magically come up with the answer, with no repercussions or additional expenses.

It's the way lawyers think science works.

38

I eagerly await Thomas Frank's next book, "What's the Matter with Michigan?".

On that note there IS actually a great book out now by Jack Cashill: "What's The Matter With California?"

39

I'm the last one to defend those cocksucking Liberals, but GM is to blame for GM's problems.

 

I'm the last one to defend GM, but the point of Californias absurd emissions standards is to abolish the internal combustion engine. Make no mistake on that point. If an oil burning engine took in dirty air and spewed out clean air, the fruit loops in CA would say "not clean enough, and it doesn't have a pine fresh scent". Clean air is a side issue here. They're opposed to oil, period.

 

 

40 This is a major popcorn moment when Obama actually has to deal with issues such as the economy and whether it is worth it to bail out the lame auto industry. It will be a tragicomedy of epic proportions since his enablers in the media will be restrained from any monday morning quarter backing. We will soon see if the American public will have buyer's remorse before his first 100 days are up. My money is on him making his first "official" faux paux on the economy about 2 days after his inauguration.

41 What?  Private car ownership by The Masses™ has to be outlawed to Save the Planet™.

Awesome.  Barry's gonna buy me that suh-weet carbon fiber 21-speed I've been looking at! 

42 US auto companies are doing a mighty fine job of putting themselves out of business for nearly 30 years.  They either refuse or don't know how to build a car people want to drive.

To steal a tagline, Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way.

43 Sooo, the Big 3 get huge bailouts, to sue the EPA? WTF?

44

The President Elect chose the Michigan's Governor to help with as an economics advisor.  She and the legislature managed to drive Michigan to recession in what was argueable the best economy of our lifetime.  Now she will work the magic that is killing off the hometown 3 and manufacturing in Michigan in general, on the rest of the cournty.  God help us.  The unions and the auto companies made a death pact when they had no competition and now it has caught up with them.  So be it, maybe they can restruture in bankrupcy and become competative again but I doubt they have the business savy to do it

45

The government will almost certainly tie increased CAFE standards to the bailout that they're going to hand GM and Ford.

The sad thing is, I wouldn't mind too terribly if instead, the feds attached a proposition to trade the bailout cash for a quick transition into making CNG vehicles, i.e. the Pickens Plan.  That's probably the least worst option, overall.

46 Whre's my motherfucking flying car. Barry promised flying fucking cars...BTW..Since everybody has to be like Cali now, where do we trade in our brains for fake tits?

47 Since everybody has to be like Cali now, where do we trade in our brains for fake tits?

Ummm....is there another option for the guys?  I don't need moobs.

48 is it too early to begin impeachment proceedings against Obama on the basis of incompetence?

49 Dude, where's my bailout?

50 With every election victory are the seeds of subsequent defeat. Yes, they are more than ACORN.

51 What's the matter with CA? Suffering the effects of too much silicon and botox..I mean c'mon, Nancy Pelosi is a living, breathing case in point..

52

Would it be evil of me to think that this sort of thing is an ideal situation for "concern trolls" from our side to help fan dissension in the lefts ramshackle coalition?

"As a life long auto union member and Obama supporter ...."

"As a life long enviromentalist and Obama supporter, I want everybody to ride bicycles or the train."

 

53 Caller asked Rush why Obama doesn't give each American one million dollars.  Cheaper than bailouts.

Math was not his strong point. It would cost $300 trillion, which I think exceeds all the money in the world, and the Martians aren't lending. Not to mention that it would go right into the national debt, raising annual interest expenses way about total government revenue.

54 I want tits. I'm sick of getting drinks thrown in my face.

55

Fuck it, let the auto industry go under. These people voted for this man, deal with it. Never underestimate the power of stupid people to fuck themselves over.

This country is going down, its just a question of how fast

56 Would it be evil of me to think that this sort of thing is an ideal situation for "concern trolls"...

No, it wouldn't be evil of you, it would be realistic.

Axelturfing is keepin' it real!

57 "What's the matter with Michigan?" Don't forget the followup volume What's the matter with Pennsylvania?"
Pennsylvania focuses more on the rampant machoism of the state among the bitter, gun and bible clinging folk who derive income from the coal fields. They enjoy taking a swift kick to the sack and proceed to ask The One for more
There might even be room for additional volumes for West Virginia, Ohio, and Virginia...

58 I'm the last one to defend GM, but the point of Californias absurd emissions standards is to abolish the internal combustion engine.

Sell the cars in California without engines. Tada! Zero emissions.

59 Nationalized automobile industry. A volkswagen in every pot.

60 ...the point of Californias absurd emissions standards is to abolish the internal combustion engine.

No doubt, no doubt.

But the Liberals gained the moral authority because it looked like GM was doing nothing but produce dinosaurs. They should have at least tried to stay competitive with the foreign manufacturers.

61 Sell the cars in California without engines. Tada! Zero emissions.

That will give a whole new meaning to that line on the window sticker that reads, "California Emissions>"

62 If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

63 We will be broke. On the bright side the world will love us.

64

Sell the cars in California without engines.

Appropriate on so. Many. Levels.

Omigod!

65

It would cost $300 trillion, which I think exceeds all the money in the world, and the Martians aren't lending.

 

The government could easily print that much in an afternoon. Yes, I know. But that's where they're getting the bailout money anyway.

 

Math was not his strong point.

I think his point was that maths not the governments strong point, rather than a serious request for a million dollars.

66 22 This is madness!

Madness?

THIS!  IS!  OBAMAAAAAAA!!

67

Sell the cars in California without engines.

 

Flintstones, we're the Flintstones, .... Yabba daba dooo!

 

68 By the way, here in Massachusetts we have our very own Amtrak.

Our MBTA transportation system is a financial disaster; it's losing money like it's  a sieve. And just like Amtrak it will be forever bailed out.

69 And besides, I thought this whole "eliminate earth-destroying modern contrivances / return to pastoral, idyllic agrarian and/or hunter-gatherer communities" thing was for our own good, wasn't it?

Right?

70 In response to the million dollars for everyone, this idea would fly if you wanted to pay $100,000 for a big mac and fries. Money is only worth so much if not everyone has it. 1,000,000 would be the new 0.
In short, it wouldn't work.

71 Fuck California.  Auto Mfg's should stop selling immediately to California, saying that their autos do not meet California's emission standards.  That will open up a whole new market for Cushman and E-Z-Go.  Electric scooters and golf carts and then let them outlaw coal fired generating plants.  See how far they get charging up their golf carts on the solar and wind generated power.

72 Oh, yeah, and screw the environment.  I mean, really.  If you see my name below, I know what the Amish lifestyle is all about.  You don't want to live that way.  Horse crap everywhere...  Think the air is fresh?  Do you know what liquid manure smells like?  Do you?  I do.  You don't want it.  I'd rather have a Mexico City-type smog 24/7 then have to endure liquid manure one second more.  Screw the environment.  I believe in global warming and I'm all for it.  The earth's too damned cold.

73 Auto Mfg's should stop selling immediately to California, saying that their autos do not meet California's emission standards.

Did you miss the part where California represents over 20% of their entire revenue stream?

I mean I'm all about saying "fuck California" too, but I have that luxury because they don't pay 20% of my bills.  They'd need to pretty radically re-tool their business model before they could pull that one off and frankly, as huge as they are and as glacially as they adjust, I just don't think they have the time.

74 In response to the million dollars for everyone, this idea would fly if you wanted to pay $100,000 for a big mac and fries. Money is only worth so much if not everyone has it. 1,000,000 would be the new 0.
In short, it wouldn't work.

How about just me then?

75

I think it would be amusing if everyone told California "Fine, we won't sell you ANY nasty cars."

Or electricity. I read someplace that they only want outside electricity from hydro or other "clean " sources. Boycott the stupid fuckers until they regain some grasp of reality.

 

76
Here's a great article about the environmental movement at FrontPage magazine.

77 In response to the million dollars for everyone, this idea would fly if you wanted to pay $100,000 for a big mac and fries. Money is only worth so much if not everyone has it. 1,000,000 would be the new 0.
In short, it wouldn't work.

That's only assuming the gov't prints new money, right?  If we seize assets from the rich and give it to "95% of Americans", the rich will just have less money and most Americans will have the money to buy new cars, thus saving the auto industry!! Brilliant!!!

78 We will be broke. On the bright side the world will love us.

Yeah, but the love will only last until they realize that the world needs the US more than the US needs the world. We are probably the only nation in the world that could realistically withdraw into autarky and survive with an average standard of living that's anything near present levels.

79

Did you miss the part where California represents over 20% of their entire revenue stream?

 

I saw the part where they have a negative revenue stream. If you're losing money on every car you sell, selling fewer cars seem like a good idea. Especialy if you have a customer who wants to make things even worse for you.

 

80 Did you miss the part where California represents over 20% of their entire revenue stream?

No...I didn't miss that part.  My point was that if they don't have an auto to purchase, that meets those new standards, then what the hell are the 20% of the market going to be buying anyway?  I know what my business model would do if faced with the prospect of losing money on 20% of my business.  I would refuse the 20% of that business and downsize.

81 And what will america look like after four years of ENPORER PALPATINE OBAMA?

82 Reagan seems to have underestimated today's dems....

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

We've entered a new world where they to kill it and subsidize it at the same time.  It's just pesky taxpayer money anyway.

83 But ... I was promised a free unicorn, damnit.

84 They don't need cars there. They can use buses. Busing was good for liberals.

85 Can the citizens of this country file a class action lawsuit against the government? Why the hell not, everyone else has their hand out for our money.

86

 If we seize assets from the rich and give it to "95% of Americans", the rich will just have less money and most Americans will have the money to buy new cars, thus saving the auto industry!!

 

And as a side beneft, the rich will have less money to shovel into Obama's bank account for the 2012 campaign.

I'm getting tired of defending the left wing plutocrats. Tax 'em!

 

87

I am in no mood to bail out GM's pension plans since GM would never bail mine out.

Free this, free that, 100 paid days off every year, etc.

They can shove it.

88 I have no pity whatsoever for the auto companies, their unions or their workers. The big 3 have given the unions and workers whatever they want (including getting paid full salary to sit home) and have given assembly line workers a better lifestyle than many college graduates. Did they think the party would last forever? They are collectively manufacturing inferior products. That was fine when they were the only game in town. I suppose they think that the American public feels that they're required to buy an American car. Well, my Toyota is made by Americans.
 
As for Obama, he is quite the slight of hand artist. Offers money with one hand, stabs the industry in the back with the other. Oh well, the unions supported him, they get exactly what they deserve.

/sorry about the rant

89 Have any of you actually been to California?  Trust me... nobody in California is getting rid of their car any time soon.  Fuck, most people I know who live in California drive any time they're going any distance longer than a single city block. 

They realize that because they control 20% of the U.S. auto market, they have a huge-ass bully pulpit.  That's all there is to it.  They know automakers can do better to cut CO2, and they know they have the leverage to accomplish it.  Nobody in California is giving up their car, that's one thing you can be damn sure of.

90 I've been reading Sea of Thunder by Evan Thomas which concerns Japan before and during WWII.  They were nuts.  truth and reality meant nothing to them.  For example, They claimed that they invented the light bulb, the radio, and the airplane.  When (on October 12-13, 1944) they launched a series of completely unsuccessful attacks on the US Third Fleet managing to only damage two cruisers, they reported it to their own people as a massive victory with at least a dozen aircraft carriers sunk and at least 60% of US naval power destroyed.  They declared a national holiday and received a congratulatory radio message from Hitler.  Having lost almost all of their qualified naval pilots during or before the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, they cut back on training becuase there were too many accidents as novice pilots tried to land on carriers tied to the dock.  They were more interested in "blooming as flowers of death" than they were in actually winning the war.

Ten years ago I would have said that such delusional thinking could not govern the US.  Now I know better. 

91 They don't need cars there. They can use buses.

Sorry, all the available buses already have people under them.

92 Michigan is diagnostic proof that unionism phails.

93 In response to the million dollars for everyone, this idea would fly if you wanted to pay $100,000 for a big mac and fries.

I think that you completely misunderstand the trickle up theory.  First the money goes to the poor and then it goes to the liquor stores, prostitutes, pimp, and drug dealers, then to luxury car dealers and firearms manufacturers.

94 Steve the Pirate: Stabenow's marginally effective, but has nowhere near the pull.

I take issue with that statement.   Stabenow's a retarded cow whose only (although, admittedly, not insignificant) decent act of note was opposing the bailout.  IMHO.

95 Wondering why most posts aren't showing up?  They seem to be there and then disappear.  how odd.

96 Steve the Pirate: Stabenow's marginally effective, but has nowhere near the pull.

I take issue with that statement.   Stabenow's a retarded cow whose only (although, admittedly, not insignificant) decent act of note was opposing the bailout.  IMHO.

97 Sorry for the double post.

Sorry for the double post.

98 The biggest result of this self-inflicted mess is now the auto industry is going to argue that they can't compete with other foreign companies that don't have to shoulder the burden of healthcare. Of course, the Japanese mfr's who produce in the US will be ignored.

Obama will address the Fortune 500 and say, "I feel your pain.<bite lip> I too want you to be able to compete on a 'equal' level with other foreign companies."  Bingo, big biz is lined-up with the socialized healthcare because now it's all about fairness, you see.

99 It all goes back to that Thursday night meeting in Miss Nancy's office.  If we knew what was said in that meeting, what made them all literally look like they had seen a ghost, then we'd know what is going on.

100 Utter BS.  The unions nailed the coffin shut long before Obama appeared on the scene. Ending the big Three's existence is the best thing that can happen for our economy.  Crush them, so we can get some realistic competition in the field.

101 BHO has already promised the US based automakers a bailout of at least 25b some months ago. Gotta keep the unions happy!

102 I have spent my entire life in michigan and have watched to UAW unions year after year strike for more demands of higher pay and more benefits.  When will these people learn that you can only bleed a well so dry? American auto companies can't compete with the low prices of Honda and Toyota BECAUSE they are forced to pay continuously increasing pay and benefits for their workers.  I would also like to point out that while executives and ceos were getting big pay checks so were the union bosses.  Isn't it ironic that large companies like this are obviously having a difficult time in this economy and yet its companies like this that the democrats insist on paying higher taxes.  Its easy to say they got their "just desserts" but you miss the bigger picture that these companies employ thousands of americans who need jobs. 

103

Nobody in California is giving up their car, that's one thing you can be damn sure of.

I'm not sure why we should give them a choice in the matter. If they don't want to buy our cars, fuck 'em.

 

104

Wasn't the election a referendum on whether Ford and GM should stay in business?

So why is anyone surprized?

105 Those idiots in Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania deserve what the get, and as H.L. Menken said, good and hard.

106

As a car guy, I do not have enough time to dispute every uninformed opinion on here about GM...but I'll start.

"Honda and Toyota have managed to get their shit together, while using a huge U.S. based workforce.  Japanese cars are now built in the U.S. while U.S. built cars are built in freakin' Mexico.  Maybe a kick in the ass is what the assholes running the Big 3 need to get their act together."

GM has 30 plants in Michigan ALONE.  Toyota has 10 in the US, total.  Some US manufacturers models are built in Mexico, but most are built here.  GMT900s, the new trucks, are built right here in Arlington.

"US auto companies are doing a mighty fine job of putting themselves out of business for nearly 30 years.  They either refuse or don't know how to build a car people want to drive."

Actually, they build plenty of great cars, the only problem is people who are completely unwilling to buy American because of the same uninformed crap that I've been reading here.  The Fusion and Malibu took the top honors this year for initial quality in the midsize segment at JD Powers and Associates...the segment that the Accord and Camry are in.  Once that gap is closed (and it is) who the hell would want a boring-ass ugly Toyota?  Even Consumer Reports, which is biased (self-reporting + using Toyota's past record to bolster their numbers).

" They are collectively manufacturing inferior products"

As I've said above, no they aren't.  Just like conservatives get unjustified bullshit from the media, so do the Big Two (I'm not going to argue for Chrysler, they were on the right path until Daimler bought them and screwed everything up).  You THINK they're inferior because a bunch of ignorant assclowns have told you so.

"They've had, what, thirty-five years to improve their line so it can compete with foreign automakers? Yet they continued to pump out the same Buick LeSabres and Ford Crown Vics."

Most useless and moronic observation of the night.  Are you kidding me?  The LeSabre started in the early 50's as a V-8 rear-drive body on frame car, and the last one was front wheel drive, V-6 and unibody.  THE ONLY THING THE SAME WAS THE NAME! (and the quality...Buick as a car brand matches Lexus for both dependability and quality, except for this year when it slipped under Caddy and above Toyota.)  Same thing with the Crown Vic...it evolved not as much but the last was thoroughly modern and highly reliable.  Do you think an '84 Corolla is the same as a 2007?

This loan, while not technically my cup of tea, is no. 1 deserved because Michigan rode GM and Ford's ass when the times were good, jacked up the taxes so they couldn't keep a good cash reserve, and useless regulation unfairly hit US automakers from the beginning (you try making a 7 liter engine and a 1.2 hit the same emissions target.  Hell, you probably wouldn't HAVE to do anything about the 1.2), and no 2. it actually WILL help fix things.  Alan Mulally is the former CEO of Boeing now working at Ford, and he has taken DRASTIC measures to fix the company.  As for GM, Rick Wagoner may not be the best, but despite the bureaucratic inertia he had to overcome, he squeezed 2.5 BILLION yearly out of the unions, but unfortunately it only comes into effect in 2010.  That's what they need the loan for, to wait it out.

If the gov't is going to overtax our corporations during the good times so they can get free money, then it's "you break it you buy it"  The only people that lose in either case of bailing out or not is us, but we lose either way.  But I know that we will lose less if this low interest loan goes through than if it doesn't.

And, as for all yall shit-talking GM and Ford, GO TEST DRIVE A FUSION OR MALIBU!  If you still hate them, then fine, but I fucking HATE people who heap crap on these carmakers without even knowing what they offer.

107 Ending the big Three's existence is the best thing that can happen for our economy.

I'd make the employees an offer to buy the companies. 

It worked for IBM with Lexmark.  The Lexinton KY printer operations had been a profits drag for quite a while and the employees bought it from IBM and turned it around and made it profitable.

Having the unions in the position of managing their own future would shut them up right quick.

108 oh forgot a few things - it's kind of hard to fight the unions when the government sucks up to them, and two, I also forgot that Toyota, Honda, VW (which builds absolute crap), and Mercedes ALL get unfair funding from their governments...AND they have lower corporate taxes.

109

Does anybody here know how to play this game?

You're supposed to sympathize with those idiots in Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, at least to their face. "Wow, those Democrats sure screwed you, huh? Poor guys."

And you're supposed to encourage the other nuts in the Dem camp to scew harder.

The Dems have been doing it to us for years, you'd think people would grasp the basic concept by now.

 

110 This is indirectly related.  They downgraded GM today with a target of zero.  Honestly, I don't trust any of the "analysts" anymore

111 I want to scream from the rooftops that California's zero emission mandate is the reason the US companies dropped hybrid development and wasted so much time on electric in the 80's and 90's.

Don't these fucking morons ever learn?

112

Actually, they build plenty of great cars, the only problem is people who are completely unwilling to buy American because of the same uninformed crap that I've been reading here.  The Fusion and Malibu took the top honors this year for initial quality in the midsize segment at JD Powers and Associates...the segment that the Accord and Camry are in.  Once that gap is closed (and it is) who the hell would want a boring-ass ugly Toyota?  Even Consumer Reports, which is biased (self-reporting + using Toyota's past record to bolster their numbers).

 

Yeah, it's off topic but I agree with this pretty much. The people slamming American cars don't seem to have driven one since 1985.

113

I know it will hurt but the way that people learn is through cause and effect.

Yes, Mr. Autoworker, you lost your job because the man you voted for increased taxes and regulation on your employer.

114 A competitive automotive industry is essential to a modern manufacturing economy. Electronics, materials, metals, CAD/CAE, coatings, testing, industrial communication standards, design standards, .......

All these things and more are driven by the automotive sector. If we lose automotive we will lose competitiveness on an unimaginable scale.

I'm not saying we should nationalize it, but I am saying it's loss would be catastrophic. We spend billions on space exploration, astronomy and high energy physics, and the truth is that they produce very return if any.

meanwhile, we pummel the industries that actually produce wealth in the country.

115 I don't think American cars are crap, I just think they are too expensive for what you are getting.  Consumer capital purchases are all about price point tradeoffs and yet we don't get to make those choices.  Mandates of all kinds are what hurts here.  I have always worn my seat belts and yet I have to pay for expensive air bags just to feather Ralph Nader's nest.  I'd also rather have inexpensive oldstyle solid bumpers but I am denied that choice.  I'd accept less gas mileage if I could pay 50% less for a new car.

116 It occurred to me that the teachers union must be watching this auto thing very closely.  Maybe BO is thinking that in DC the government spent a small fortune per student and apparently, from everything I've read, didn't get the desired result.  Maybe BO is thinking of establishing some sort of accountability for teachers and maybe tenure, in this financial climate, will become a thing of the past?

117 The man has a thumb on the scale of consumer choice

118

The Democrats have been costing Americans jobs via taxes and regulation for decades now, and I see no sign that anybody is learning anything from it.

 

119 So no unfunded mandates for states - but unfunded mandates for the auto industry? Huh.

120

Apparently no one ever told the Automakers about the Law of Diminishing Returns.

They have out priced their market because of a number of bad business decisions and the costs government regulations inflate the price of a new car; i.e. Liddy Dole's stupid third tail light added two hundred dollars to the average price of a new car.

Along with the peace at any price labor contracts they made with unions in the 1970's and ever increasing government regulations a large part of the Automakers former customers have been priced out of the market.

In 1968, a new well equipped full size car might cost on average 25% to 30% of the yearly gross income of someone earning a middle class income, say $8,000 to $10,000. Today the same car would cost $40,000 plus and would be 90% to 100% of the average middle class income.

 

 

121 seguin,

Thanks for your informed post. However, your argument that the only reason consumers don't but US autos is because they read "uninformed crap," is refutable on it's face.

Consumers may also not buy because of past experience. So "uninformed crap" is not the sole reason.

122 Thanks, seguin (#s 106 & 10 -- as a Michigander & GM employee, I wanted to say that, but you said it much better'n I woulda.

123 #106 & #108 ... damned smileys ....

124 This bailout is nothing more than a way to rtect union jobs and pay them back for their support. I can see that there will be a mandate along with the money that auto makers will have to produce a certain number of hybrids or alternative fuel cars.  This will appease the environmentalists.  It's a twofer.

125

I can see that there will be a mandate along with the money that auto makers will have to produce a certain number of hybrids or alternative fuel cars. 

 

Then there will need to be two bailouts, because Detroit was in dire shape even without new CAFE standards.

126

It was clear that the big 3 were doomed 5 years ago when they decided on a brilliant strategy to focus on SUV's and large trucks (the highest profit centers). 1. Oil/gas prices were almost guaranteed to go up in the long-run. 2. Of course stricter regulations would come about - just as they had over several decades before. 3. All the deals they made with the devil (unions) over the past few decades made them uncompetitive.

I just don't understand why the government needs to bail out companies that make horrible strategies and are uncompetitive. When does it stop?

127 This is so bizarre.  Saw the GM CEO on some financial program and he was saying how well the cars were selling in China.  Now, of course the car was like eleven grand there but they were selling.  Made you think everything was fine.  I guess Governor Granhom was there to protect the interests of the auto makers.  Everything effects everything else though, would you buy a car now?  Not knowing if bankruptcy looms.  So it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

128 Why don't they just stop selling cars in California and start making 1970 Chevelles again?  From the showroom floor to the drag strip, baby!

129 This is easy.  Let the big 3 fall apart and foreign companies will fill the niche.  The Big 3 auto-unions will go away, to be replaced by whatever assembly plants the outsiders decide to open.  the foreign owned plants have an advantage that they can have leverage to close plants if they don't want to bend to union thuggery.  

If the remaining auto companies don't want to comply with CA, let CA eat cake and ride bicycles and rickshaws to work. 

130 bye bye 2nd term

131 Did Mr Peabody's Way Back machine have a Way Forward setting?  With enough drugs can someone hibernate for 4 years?   I don't think I can survive four years with out food or heat. (Supplier to the automobile industry)

132 "The President Elect chose the Michigan's Governor to help with as an economics advisor.  She and the legislature managed to drive Michigan to recession in what was argueable the best economy of our lifetime. "

You say that like it was an accident or something.

I'm really starting to realize that these people are open enemies of the private sector, because they can't control it to their hearts' desire.

Well, it's gonna be interesting.

I for one eagerly anticipate The Great Leap Forward.

133 Let them. Let GM fall. Let those union jobs be wiped out in favor of non-union auto makers. Let them regulate auto ownership into non-existence in California.

Blue state voters getting the shaft from the Dems? Best wake-up tonic ever.

134 There are so many comments on this thread about how US automakers don't know how to build a green/efficient/stylish car that "we" want to buy; the fact is ... those wonderful offshore automobile manufacturers gained real US market share when they learned to build cars like the US automakers: big sedans with big engines, minivans, and various varieties of 4WDs.  They were going nowhere built 40mpg roller skates.

For a while there they kicked our ass on quality, but that was primarily due to smaller production runs in newer factories (more robots/mechanization), and with higher price points.  That gap has been closed.  They built their plants in non-union (for now) states with a younger workforce that led to lower labor costs.  There marketing campaigns built up a facade of snobbery that defined "style."  In order to address the American market, they became American (wow).  Other than a few exotic categories; it is easy to identify one or more, comparable domestic products for every Honda or Toyota product. 

They continue to make their underpowered, lightweight, small, death traps for the rest of the world.  But, are beginning to get cut out of that market by even cheaper manufacturers in Korea and China.  The problems with the big three, begin and end, in their ties to organized labor.

135 A competitive automotive industry is essential to a modern manufacturing economy. Electronics, materials, metals, CAD/CAE, coatings, testing, industrial communication standards, design standards, .......

The folks who say it doesn't matter if the domestic auto industry goes belly up have no idea how many Americans are employed directly or indirectly by the Detroit companies, 1 in 13. They apparently think we'll all just buy Toyotas, but they won't be selling many Toyotas either with a 15% unemployment rate and that's what we'll have if GM/Ford/Chrysler fold. They'll take all their suppliers down with them, and all their suppliers' suppliers. It won't be pretty.

Neither political party has had any kind of sound industrial policy for the past 30 years. We've allowed successive industries: shoes, apparel, textiles, consumer electronics, machine tools and others just go away. The chattering classes told us we were moving to a service economy, then it was an information economy. As though we can buy our army boots from China and our tanks from Korea.

Your point about the importance of a manufacturing base to a modern country can't be overstated.

136 So he will bail out the auto industry to help the UAW, then put them out of business with the repeal!

What a politician!  Where is he from, Chicago or something?

137 All those comments about not selling cars in CA.  Brilliant, just give me a few weeks to get a corporate and personal "residency" business setup and start the "biggest car lot in the world" in Vegas.

It would be great if the response to this BS from Obama is the big3 identifing one CA model each and walking away from the market.  In this economy it might actually make sense to drop 20% of your revenue stream then to try and borrow money or raise capital.  Just let CA know we will come back when someone invents a perfect battery or a car that burns hemp.

138 Does this mean Chevy won't honor my warranty?

139

The worst part of this whole scenario is that we can't even enjoy being gleefully RIGHT.  It's going to hurt.  I love the idea of bailing out on California. Serves 'em right.  And in a way it makes sense.  They amputate limbs to save a life.

A couple of days ago, I had a similar thought about Ford.  It's dying.  I believe that Ford should quit making everything but its hallmark Mustang, its trucks, and its economy entry, the Fusion.  Then they should engineer the hell out of those three market entries---in other words, they should focus on their core competencies.  What a novel idea!  I wouldn't even count the Fusion in that group, but they did enjoy fantastic success with the Escort and there will likely be legislation that requires them to have x% of their sales in "green" cars.

Similarly, Chevy would do the same with their bread-and-butter:  SUVs and trucks, mid-size sedans, and the Corvette.  The Corvette could become a rare and much-sought boutique model.  I always wondered what happened to Chevy's 3-cylinder car concept (the Sprint)---I had one 20 years ago, and it got close to 50 mpg highway.  There's nothing with mileage like that on the market now.

140

OK, here's the plan:

 

A NATIONAL lottery, to raise $$ to pay for all the bail-outs!  In reality, as is the case with all lotteries, this would be a stealth tax on the poor, stupid, desperate and gullible.  But, it would permit theose folks to pay their "fair share," in  a way that is, for them, painless. Make the prize HUGE; make all payments for tickets in cash, etc., just as with state lotteries.

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