1

Enya?

 

2 Should the decision to not impose the death penalty be based on emotion rather than reason?

A lot of the arguments against come down to "it's kinda icky and my Eurotrash friends will like me better if we get rid of it."

3

IMO:

Determine guilt or innocence by reason.

Determine punishmen by emotion.

4 Should the decision to impose the death penalty be based on reason rather than emotion?

Call me old fashioned but shouldn't it be based on the law and the circumstances of the crime?

And seriously, Enya?

5 Enya is, like so "No on 8"

6

I represented a woman whose husband was killed by a drunk driver.  The driver was sentenced by the judge to an "open 20".  Which means she could do up to that amount.  In Hawaii, after sentencing, the Parole Board decides the mandatory minimum sentence that has to be served before being eligible for parole.  My colleague, who had been practicing criminal law all over the country for over 30 years, told our client to expect a 4 year mandatory minimum.  She made a video.  The video was extremely powerful (she had experience in marketing).  The driver (with no prior record, not even speeding tickets) was given an 18 year mandatory minimum.  The only other person who got more than that in our state was a cop who was drunk all the time, killed a teenager, then sued her estate because she was in his way - his defense at trial was having an "educated liver" if you can believe it!  Also, the same day as the 18 yr mandatory minimum was passed, the Board handed down a 1 yr mandatory minimum to an 18 yr old who had killed a mother of 4 while racing on the freeway.

Did the video have an impact?  I wholeheartedly believe it did. 

7 Honestly, I have mixed feelings about victim impact statements.  A judge can look at the evidence and make a decision based on the guidelines in the law. 

Having a grieving family try to express their loss makes me uncomfortable, and it seems like it is unnecessary.  Maybe they could have an attorney file some sort of brief on it.

I am actually not a huge fan of the judicial lecture either.



 

8 Making videos with Enya soundtracks should be punishable by death, and in a just country it would be.

9

If (and I grant it's a big if) the decision should be based on reason rather than emotion, then the idea of this kind of thing is utter bullshit.

Take two different impact statements, at random, from two different murder trials. If there really some way to quantify, rationally, not only the loss felt by society, but the victim's family and friends, as being somehow deeper or more significant, there must be some way to judge this from the statements.

If you can't reliably say that one death was more impactful than another, based on statements (or videos or whatever) of this kind, I'm tempted to say that they serve no rational purpose. They certainly do serve an emotional purpose, however.

To put it a different way, we can assume that the survivors of the crime are devastated by the loss of their loved one. Does a "better" statement convey a sense of more loss on the part of the survivors? If not, and if these statements aren't effective at showing different levels of grief, why not just stipulate the extent of the grief as being "devastating?"

Has an impact statement ever had the effect of reducing a jury's antipathy (or conviction that the defendant should be punished, die, whatever?)

I suggest: probably not. 

Can the defendant offer a rebuttal statement, proving that the victim was a piece of shit who deserved what was coming to them? That, say, the victim was a member of the KKK, or drowned puppies?

No?

Then you have your answer.  

10 BTW, I'm certainly not against the death penalty. But I really don't like these kinds of things.

11 If those opposing the death penalty really believed that the decision should be based on reason rather than emotion, they would also advocate for the end of introducing and arguing factors of mitigation and asking for mercy during closing.

12 there is no point of a victim impact statement other than an emotional response. 

13

Off Topic

Did you see that the change.gov website has been scrubbed of it's agenda?

It's on Drudge now... I wish I would have copied the whole damn thing.

14

Call me old fashioned but shouldn't it be based on the law and the circumstances of the crime?

Oh, rebel. You old joker.

 

15 "Should the decision to impose the death penalty be based on reason rather than emotion? NO
If yes, do victim impact statements aid that purpose? NO
And in this particular case, did the video aid that purpose?" NO

BTW, I'm running for judge of stuff.  Vote for me!  I guarantee no more backlogs. 

16 If there really some way to quantify, rationally, not only the loss felt by society, but the victim's family and friends, as being somehow deeper or more significant, there must be some way to judge this from the statements.

Is there a way that the Victim can speak to the jury? Of course, not. But, this is the next best thing. And since the defense is allowed to introduce mitigation and beg for mercy, VIE merely evens the playing field a bit.

17

I think reason and I don't think victim impact videos should be permissible just as I don't think that family or friends of the murdered should be allowed to cry and ask for more punishment or the friends or family of the murderer should be allowed to cry and ask for less punishment.

I don't believe the death penalty should be punishment, it should be for removing someone too dangerous to others to live. Period. In a perfect world, our judicial system should be used for rehabilitation and keeping bad people away from good people, not punishment.

Therefore, who he killed (excluding police) should be immaterial.

Why should killing police not be immaterial? Because their job is to protect society, a criminal who goes after them is attacking our very system. But even then, it's all about the fact that a cop was murdered, not how nice a guy the cop was.

Just the facts.

18

Is there a way that the Victim can speak to the jury? Of course, not. But, this is the next best thing. And since the defense is allowed to introduce mitigation and beg for mercy, VIE merely evens the playing field a bit.

OK. Can they go too far?

19 If I was murdered and my wife subsequently made a victim impact video of my life synced to Enya, I would be soo pissed. 

20 Why are they sending impact photos to an Irish pop singer?

21 Should the decision to impose the death penalty be based on reason rather than emotion?

Sure, it should be.  Is it going to be?  No way.  I think this is a case where reason should be guided by emotion.  That's the best case scenario.  Considering the composition of the average jury, I'd be thrilled to see a hint of anything in the vicinity of reason at any stage. 

If yes, do victim impact statements aid that purpose?

That's a trickier question.  I do think that victim impact statements serve a purpose.  The purpose of punishment is to punish.  Making the defendant listen to precisely what s/he did is well within bounds on that score.  The question is should that be used for sentencing.  I'm torn on this.  It's the pos argument that jdub mentions, are there going to be disparate sentences because someone could afford a better video?  If so, does that violate equal protection concerns.  I think it's pretty obvious that's the case.  Look, let's not pretend that killing the head of the local PTA is going to get a harsher sentence than gang bangers blowing each other away. 

But I do see a place for them.  Trials are usually all about the defendant.  The jury should be able to learn about the victim as well.  What that line is, I can't say, other than you know it when you see it.

We use day in the life videos all the time and we're starting to use victim impact videos to show the jury or the mediator the effect of the injury/death.  Of course we're doing it to provoke an emotional response.  Of course we're trying to outrage so we get more money.  I'm not about to pretend that these videos aren't doing the same thing. 

And in this particular case, did the video aid that purpose?

This goes right up to, if not over the line.  There's presenting the life and impact and there's being sentimental and maudlin.

And Enya?  Really?  I  mean really? 

22 Gringo nailed it.

23 O.T.: Greta and BOR are really going at it. Greta says Cameron called her and told her his report didn't come out they way he meant it, i.e., it sounded like a little jerk having a hissy fit.

Greta called BOR report gossip. BOR takes exception.

24

I have a problem with it.  At the end of the day the rationale of the jury is the jury's.  I don't care for the Court trying to impose itself into deliberations.  I mean, when the Court says the verdict must be based on reason...how will the Court enforce that?

The Jury is one of the last areas in the court system where local values and such are able to make itself heard.  And if some folks on the jury feel emotional about a convicted killer, well, so be it.  The alternative is, I fear, having Justice Stevens sit in for the jury.

25 I am a strong proponent of the death penalty.  I think the primary problem with the death penalty is that it isn't public, severe, or used often enough.  With that being said, the idea of an impact video seems to be against the idea of legal justice based on reason and evidence.  It rings just as hollow to me as the idea of legislating different criminal classification based on the motivation of their crime (hate crimes.)  A crime, is a crime, is a crime.  Mitigating factors could have some effect on the malicious nature of a crime, but the emotional impact on the friends and family of the victim does not change the nature of the crime in any way that I can see.  That's how I see it anyway.

26

If those opposing the death penalty really believed that the decision should be based on reason rather than emotion, they would also advocate for the end of introducing and arguing factors of mitigation and asking for mercy during closing.

Can the defendent play a video of his children and other family members who'd miss him if he were dead?

27 Does a killer deserve less jail time because the guy he killed was a homeless guy who didn't have a family willing to part with the money to make a sappy video about what a great guy he was? What if the victim was a major asshole who wasn't liked by anybody (but was a law abiding and productive citizen)?

I think sentences ought to be determined by the crime, not about how somebody feels about the crime, and certainly not by how good a video editor the family's attorney knows.

28 Victim Impact Evidence is not the same as Victim Impact Statements. VIS are made to the judge before sentencing and are more or less irrelevant. It does give the family an opportunity to let it all out though. The case being discussed had to do with VIE during the penalty phase.

29

The Jury is one of the last areas in the court system where local values and such are able to make itself heard.  And if some folks on the jury feel emotional about a convicted killer, well, so be it.  The alternative is, I fear, having Justice Stevens sit in for the jury.

Well, if they feel emotional, fine.

Should a prosecutor be given (yet more) tools to put a finger on the emotional scale?

The way the two here are presented, they're clearly spite salvos. They're clearly prejudicial.

30

excuse me.

unduly prejudicial.

 

31 I just wait for the day when the Court rules on Enya in the courtroom.

Please, please, please rule against it.

32 Probably not fair.  Hearing Enya always makes me want to kill someone.......

33 Is there a way that the Victim can speak to the jury? Of course, not. But, this is the next best thing. And since the defense is allowed to introduce mitigation and beg for mercy, VIE merely evens the playing field a bit.

OK. Can they go too far?

Sure. That's why we have courts of appeal. It doesn't happen in a vacumn. There are rules and it is presented by the prosecution and there are many motions by both sides about what can and cannot be introduced during the trial.

34

Isn't the negative impact that these crimes have on society and the victims in particular one of the reasons we have laws in the first place?

35 Can the defendent play a video of his children and other family members who'd miss him if he were dead?

Even better! The defendant can have his actual children and family members appear in person and tell the jury directly, please don't kill my daddy/hubby/son, etc.

36 Anything set to Enya should be illegal.

37 Does a killer deserve less jail time because the guy he killed was a homeless guy who didn't have a family willing to part with the money to make a sappy video about what a great guy he was?

The state pays for it. And it's not that hard to argue that a homeless person is no less deserving of the right to be murdered. You don't need a video to do that.

What if the victim was a major asshole who wasn't liked by anybody (but was a law abiding and productive citizen)?

So, what? Then you hammer on the defendant's record and likelihood to offend again.

38 When you murder someone, you destroy the lives of the victim's parents, lovers, spouses, friends, siblings, and children.

Of course the greater impact of the crime deserves recognition. The family's loss and grief must be reckoned with.

39 Seriously, in what sort of twisted world would you not base the severity of the crime on it's impact and how can you judge that impact without understanding the emotional side to it?    Clearly that is why we have these laws in the first place.

40
The living breathing person, the defendant is there to attest to his humanity and remind the sentencing judge or jurors of the impact of their sentence. There is no such person in the form of the victim.

OTOH, lavish, emotionally manipulative videos are beneath the dignity of the court. So are most of the sob-fests that are so popular on court TV.

It is a balance and I think something on which the judge should rule. That seems to this layman to be his job.

BTW, I am not at all in favor of extremely lengthy sentences except in the case of repeat violent offenders who simply must be isolated from decent society. For those we hope to rehabilitate, 3 years will teach them anything they might learn in 18. If they are incapable or unwilling to take the lesson, then lock 'em away.

41 My preferred solution to this is: Convicted of 1st degree = execution

42 I don't get it. Why show the vid after the verdict is sent down? The only purpose of showing the vid before sentencing is serving those impacted a cathartic release somehow (I'm guessing). The verdict is based on staunch reason and facts; after the verdict why not have a cathartic release? Makes sense.

43 Isn't the negative impact that these crimes have on society and the victims in particular one of the reasons we have laws in the first place?/i>

As you can pick up from this thread, most people don't give a shit about victims until it is someone they know or love.

44

And it's not that hard to argue that a homeless person is no less deserving of the right to be murdered. You don't need a video to do that.

I assume you meant "right not to be murdered."

And if you don't need a video to prove that someone deserved not to be murdered, (which I agree with,) why do you need to allow the video to made for Sally Homecoming Queen?

And if you don't need it, why not get around the entire 14th problem by not allowing them in the first place?

 

45 Should the decision to impose the death penalty be based on reason rather than emotion?
If yes, do victim impact statements aid that purpose?
And in this particular case, did the video aid that purpose?

All great questions. And if I didn't have class in 12 minutes (ah, law school), I'd respond in depth. But I'll get back on this.

46 "And it's not that hard to argue that a homeless person is no less deserving of the right to be murdered."

Lulz...Was that right somewhere on change.gov?

47 Damnit, jdub, beat me to it.

48 mossback: There are two phases to a capital case. The first is the guilt phase. The second is the penalty phase. It is in the penalty phase that VIE comes in and the defense can also introduce evidence about the defendant's life. After the jury comes back a finding for death or lwop, and before the judge imposes the sentence, VIS can be introduced by the victim's family.

49 Alright, substitute hobo for homeless and see how you feel.

50 This smacks of affirmative action and hate crime reasoning to me.  Who the victim is shouldn't matter.  The crime that was committed should.  You can argue that the jury is emotionally swayed by pleas for clemency by the criminal, and someone should be able to plea for punishment on behalf of the victim, but the whole thing is icky and in an ideal world should be unnecessary.  But as long as we're here, I'd just as soon get rid of pleas for clemency and disallow victim videos as a package deal.

51

As you can pick up from this thread, most people don't give a shit about victims until it is someone they know or love

As you can pick up from this thread, most people don't give a shit about the constitution and the law, until they're in the dock.

And yes, I hate victims.

Recreationally.

As a matter of fact, I'm going to jaunt down to the battered womens' shelter and scream, bitch, make me a sammich, now! until i can hear the weeping from 131st ave.

That's how much i hate victims.

52 agenda disappears from obama site

53 A concern for impartial justice is not "giving a shit about victims"?  Well, thanks for enlightening us.

54

Should the decision to impose the death penalty be based on reason rather than emotion?

Mandatory Death Penalty for cop killers is reason.

Victim's impact statements / video influences emotion

55 No matter who the person killed - a homeless guy, a family guy, a complete asshole - that person is not as big of a scumbag as the killer.

Sorry to sound cold, but capital punishment is just a way for society to defend itself- to show that we won't tolerate haneous behavior.  The victim should be irrelevant.  There's a reason lady liberty wears a blindfold.

We have to be careful here - thinking too much about the victim is what brought us all this hate crime bullshit from the left.

56

Clearly the Constitution sanctions the death penalty and only a liar or a fool will argue that it does not. The problem here is that the 4 lying liberals on the court don’t give a good Goddamn what the Constitution says. They will use any argument they can dredge up, whether it is material or not, to justify their fucking OPINION that they do not like the death penalty and will rule against it on every case that comes through.

 

So in the end, it doesn’t make a fuck whether the victim impact statements are prejudicial or not, it is just another stupid and immaterial argument like “foreign law” that attempts to give a fig leaf to the liberals. They just can not stand the thought that most knowledgeable people consider them “outcomists” and incapable of rendering just ruling based on the actual text of the Constitution.

 

So why ask, the actual ruling will be based on which side of the bed Kennedy gets up on. In the last death penalty case he used the “foreign law” excuse to rule against the death penalty so don’t expect anything any different here. Any judge who uses foreign law to overrule the written Constitution should be impeached.  

57 The idea that we can use only our rational faculties when judging these things is absurd. It's the sort of thing only a highly educated lawyer could believe is possible.

That said, producing videos like those in question is a bit too much for my tastes.

58 Should the decision to impose the death penalty be based on reason rather than emotion? YES
If yes, do victim impact statements aid that purpose? NO
And in this particular case, did the video aid that purpose? NO

Don't like impact statements, they pander to the worst elements of our instincts  I watched a relative of one of Dennis Rader's (BTK killer) victims give an 'impact statement' during which she articulated a desire for Mr. Rader to be raped in prison.  Classy.

Victim Impact 'Evidence' has nothing to do in most cases with the actual prosecution of the actual crime (IMHO), but provides a prosecutor with an easy sensationalist tool with which to bludgeon the jury.

I think it's bullshit.  Prove your case and sit the fuck down.

Now, WTF is an Enya?

59 No matter who the person killed - a homeless guy, a family guy, a complete asshole - that person is not as big of a scumbag as the killer.

Except for hobos.

60 I assume you meant "right not to be murdered."

Oops!

And if you don't need a video to prove that someone deserved not to be murdered, (which I agree with,) why do you need to allow the video to made for Sally Homecoming Queen?

And if you can, why not? The question is whether there was undue prejudice no matter what the form of evidence. The fact that the court refused to grant cert tells me this issue has been visited before.

And if you don't need it, why not get around the entire 14th problem by not allowing them in the first place?

What problem? The USSC refused to even review it. Like most legal issues, if people disagree, they can enact legislation against it.

61

What problem? The USSC refused to even review it. Like most legal issues, if people disagree, they can enact legislation against it.

Touche.

62 From a reason standpoint I am less concerned with who the victim was than with what was the crime committed. Often these do overlap though, making both pertinent to the issue. But I'm a jury nullification type guy, so I'm inherently skeptical of any judge or attorney trying to tell me what is and is not appropriate for the jury to see or hear.

63 We have to be careful here - thinking too much about the victim is what brought us all this hate crime bullshit from the left.
Posted by: AzClinger at November 10, 2008 12:57 PM (k58xs)

Considering the fact that there is an entire separate trial for the defendant to introduce mitigation and beg for his life, I think it is pretty damn one sided.

64 And if I didn't have class in 12 minutes (ah, law school), I'd respond in depth.

You pay attention in class?  Really?  Here's a hint - Law School u r doing it rong.

65 A concern for impartial justice is not "giving a shit about victims"? Well, thanks for enlightening us.

I've already said it numerous times already. What's impartial about allowing the defense to present mitigation, show videos, have their families get up on the stand and beg for the assholes life, end with the defense giving the cliched quality of mercy speech while denying presenting evidence about the victim's life? That's not impartial and that's not justice.

66 We have to be careful here - thinking too much about the victim is what brought us all this hate crime bullshit from the left.


No....There is an enormous difference between considering motive and emotion in determining sentence and in determining guilt.   Hate-crime laws are aimed at making certian thoughts and beliefs illegal--making them crimes in and of themselves.  WHY someone committed an act should not matter in determining whether the act was criminal.  It certainly can and should matter in determining the extent and degree of punishment.

67 Don't like impact statements, they pander to the worst elements of our instincts I watched a relative of one of Dennis Rader's (BTK killer) victims give an 'impact statement' during which she articulated a desire for Mr. Rader to be raped in prison. Classy.

Works for me. A VIS has no effect on the sentence. Why shouldn't family be allowed to tell the POS directly what they think? It's cathartic. Sorry it offends you but you aren't the one who had their love one raped, tortured, and murdered.

68 The point  of the death penalty is to exact vengeance on behalf of society, so it strikes me that the distinction between reason and emotion is somewhat illusory in this context.   Nevertheless, I think a victim impact video with an Enya sound track is a bad idea that encourages inconsistent, even capricious, results. 

69

The human mind has no defense against images.

We saw the consequences of that with the Rodney King video. People who'd seen the (heavily edited) clip made their mind up about the cops' culpability, and no amount of reason -- nor the jury's carefully considered verdict -- could prevent some of them from going berserk when the officers were acquitted.

So the use of video has to be approached very carefully.  It can lead people irrevocably in the wrong direction.

In the case of the death penalty, the decision should be pure logic:  Is the punishment just?

I don't think video evidence -- aside from helping establish the facts of the case, e.g. surveillance tapes -- should be used in these cases.  There's too much at stake and too much potential for going wrong.  Let the victim's family's presence and faces tell the story.

70

I think the videos should be allowed, simply to provide some balance for the sob stories the criminal and his family will put out.  To answer the questions posed:

1.  Should the decision to impose the death penalty be based on reason? Yes, absolutely. The reasons given being the law, the severity of the crime and the need to punish and deter future crimes. I can't build an escape proof prison, but a dead murderer will never murder again.

2. Do victim impact statements aid that purpose? Yes. By providing reminders to the jury of what the criminal did (and what he might do to them, next).

3. In this case, did the video help? Probably. It certainlydidn't hurt. It must have passed constitutional muster since the Supremes decided to leave it alone.

71

I’ve always been leery of victim impact statements.

 

I was around when they passed them in PA, and the whiff of exploitation of victim families was strong.

 

Keep the statements, but no videos. No montage or music.

 

72 Given enough time and technology, I can make Hitler seem like a hapless victim who loss was a tragedy for his family and friends.

Victim impact statements serve no purpose in a criminal trial. The evidence determines that someone is guilty or not and the jury decides if the punishment fits the crime.

High emotions do not lead to rational decisions.

The constitution provides the right for the accused to face his accusers. It makes no provision for accusers to seek closure through victim impact statements.

73 He's a real piece of shit.

I remember when they were looking for him. He worked at a gym in Burbank. I was at a used book store next door and the people were freaking out because they were so afraid of him.

74 It seems that today the greatest discomfort in the implementation of the death penalty, the greatest risk to society's sensibilities, comes from the prospect of executing someone wrongly convicted of a heinous crime. 

If we were implementing the death penalty based on reason, rather than emotion, we would be using it to clear our jails of the three-strikes-ain't-enough career losers with decades of violent offenses under their belts who've never quite managed to work themselves up to a conviction on a capital count.  

That said, I do believe that victim impact statements ought not come off like an Obama infomercial.

75
Maybe someone smarter than me can explain why emotion has no part in making judgments about whether or not to dish out capital punishment.

Wasn't a purpose of the creation of our criminal legal system to end vendettas and blood feuds between private parties.   The idea being that a court accepts the burden and responsibility of doling out justice, acting as proxies for the families of victims?

Sure, emotion should have absolutely no role in rationally determining whether or not the accused is guilty, but after that determination is made, shouldn't the court be allowed to appreciate the moral outrage of a victim's family?

76 Foundationally, the decision to impose the death penalty should be based on neither reason nor emotion.  Rather, it should be based on justice.

77 I think the videos should be allowed, simply to provide some balance for the sob stories the criminal and his family will put out.

Bingo! And as someone else posted, the victim is a living breathing human being in court -- the victim is not. Why not show photos and videos of the victim?

78 And as someone else posted, the defendant is a living breathing human being in court -- the victim is not. Why not show photos and videos of the victim?

[I'm tired.]

79 WTF?  I have to videotape my victims now?

80 I'm against the death penalty for one single reason.  Because it costs more money to kill these assholes than it does to keep them alive in prison for the rest of their lives.  All the money we waste on the appeals process could be put to much better use doing other shit.

Besides, I think killing them is the easy way out.  What's worse, getting to die after 10 years in prison or spending the rest of your god-awful life wasting away in a 10x10 cell until you die of old age.  I think the latter is much worse.

81 Since this is done after guilt has been established through a reasoned trial, why should it be a problem?  We have come to a place in our society where we try to judge what is worse and then decide sentencing.  Just because a video was used to put a drunk driver who killed someone away for 18 years and someone else did not get that long of sentence,  why is that wrong for the drunk driver's family.  We allow the guilty to have people come forward on their behalf,  if the victim is dead then why not a video showing his/her life and that of the loss the family will feel?  The victim did nothing wrong,  the guilty person did.   Once again our criminal justice system seems to favor the guilty that are living over the dead and their family. 

82

Gabe,

Your question is almost circular in nature. Is the law logical or emotional? In fact, it is both. Many of the crimes we prosecute people for are unthinking emotional dislikes and not entirely rational. Many statues exist to ‘protect’ certain classes of people solely as a feel good measure with little relationship to actual societal harm.

Take bigamy for instance. I place it in the same category as gay marriage. Why does society disallow and legislate against having multiple spouses or same sex marriage when it does no actual harm to any person? The Judeo-Christian ethos tells us that such unions are sinful, but does that necessarily make them illegal. Same line of thinking for statutory rape when the girl is over 16 and the boy is 17 - in some states he’s locked up for five to ten years for copping a feel from his girlfriend. How does that make judicial sense?

Victim impact statements and videos became vogue because courts routinely allowed friends and family members of the convicted to speak favorably on that individual’s behalf. In addition, some limp judges gave extraordinary weight to those statements without hearing from or considering the feelings of the victims’ families. Should the emotional appeal of a distraught mother seeing her son receive the death penalty be any less emotional or influential than hearing from the family of the deceased?

Again, emotion plays a central part in every trial. To me, as a layperson who is interested in the law, so long as both parties have equal access to make their appeals so the jury has a complete picture. Restricting either side skews the system in favor of one party, and that is unacceptable.

83 What's worse, getting to die after 10 years in prison or spending the rest of your god-awful life wasting away in a 10x10 cell until you die of old age. I think the latter is much worse.
Posted by: Cam at November 10, 2008 01:48 PM (6+j77)

I'm sure you do. But, those on death row fight tooth and nail not to be executed. So, for them, death is worse than lwop. People always adapt to their situation. Prisoners are moved into general population.

84 Do you really need an Enya music video to figure out that having a loved violently and senselessly taken from you has a negative impact?

85 Should the decision to impose the death penalty be based on reason rather than emotion?

No, but since the defense attorneys are already using emotion in their case, it's too late and the prosecution might as well counter that with emotion.

86

I'm against the death penalty for one single reason.  Because it costs more money to kill these assholes than it does to keep them alive in prison for the rest of their lives.  All the money we waste on the appeals process could be put to much better use doing other shit

 

This is a bullshit reason and probably not the real reason offered. It is a smokescreen designed to hide the fact that you just don’t like executing people.

 

I have never seen a study that actually shows with solid evidence that it cost more money to execute someone than it does to keep them jail for the rest of their life. Although, in some States like CA this almost becomes a moot point because they drag it out so long that usually it does wind up for the “rest of their life”.

 

In any case, if it is too damn expense under today’s environment then we need to change the damn environment. The reason we have much expense is due to the liberal who are opposed to the death penalty. Just like anti-Nukes who advocate more and more useless regulations solely for the purpose of increasing expense, they do the same here. The figure that if the costs rise enough the State or the people will quit supporting it.

 

What we should do is give the “one” appeal within a 3 month period and on failure of that appeal schedule and execution date no greater than 1 year from sentencing. This keeping them around for 15 or 20 years before execution is BS. Fry ‘em.

87 Do you really need an Enya music video to figure out that having a loved violently and senselessly taken from you has a negative impact?

It wasn't an Enya music video as you and others unfairly attempt to denigrate it. As the court opinion states Enya played softly in the background, it was not stirring or emotional music, and most of the words were not recognizable. It was a montage of photos of the victim at different ages unemotionally narrarated by her mother. It was the only VIE introduced and not repetitive of other evidence. The use of videos as VIE is nothing new.

88 Crime victims should have the same priorities as a rapists on trial and the videos should be shown

89 Take bigamy for instance. I place it in the same category as gay marriage. Why does society disallow and legislate against having multiple spouses or same sex marriage when it does no actual harm to any person?

Do you think people enter marriages with biagmists knowingly? How would you feel if your bil died and left your sister and her kids with an estate that had to be shared with 3 other wives and 8 more kids? Not so funny when you or your love ones are the victim. And do you realize that mos polygamists live on welfare? How many men can support 25 kids and 5 wives? You have to pay for their support?

90 You happy to pay for their support?

91 Again, is the VIE necessary for folks to realize that the violent loss of a loved one is a negative impact?

Presuming that the jury has seen the crime scene photos, heard the evidence as to the nature of the crime, what purpose does the VIE really serve?

92 What purpose does mitigating evidence introduced on behalf of the defendant serve? If the jury saw the crime scene photos, heard the evidence of the crime, why do they have to hear that when the murderer was 5 years old he was a good boy? The family of the defendant can ask the jury directly to spare the defendant's life. The family of the victim can't ask the jury to execute the mother fucker.

And seeing a video montage of a vibrant young woman tells me more about the lost than a decomposing corpse stabbed 29 times will ever do.

93

76 Foundationally, the decision to impose the death penalty should be based on neither reason nor emotion.  Rather, it should be based on justice.

No, it should be based on the law. 

94 **Sorry it offends you but you aren't the one who had their love one raped, tortured, and murdered**

Actually, 48 Percenter, my sister in-law was 31 when she was abducted, raped, shot to death, and then had her head torn off and thrown down a well.

I know all about the emotion...the emotion that had me shopping for a .243 Winchester and a 4X32 scope, and picking a spot in the woods where I could take my shot.

Luckily my REASON took over, as it turned out the man I'd have shot was not her killer. (He had only killed his own wife, not my brother in-law's. He's on death row, BTW).

It offends me BECAUSE of that experience, and I refuse to become an animal just because I have to exterminate an animal.

95 It offends me BECAUSE of that experience, and I refuse to become an animal just because I have to exterminate an animal.

You argue the moral equivalence of a family member verbally lashing out at a murderer to the actions of the murderer. You said they lacked class and now equate them to an animal. Your lack of empathy is disturbing.

96 **You argue the moral equivalence of a family member verbally lashing out at a murderer to the actions of the murderer. You said they lacked class and now equate them to an animal. Your lack of empathy is disturbing.**

It's not a lack of empathy, it's a conscious choice to honor the memory of a loved one instead of sinking to the level of their killer.  The family member dealing with grief gets a pass, but the attorneys and the system that put that family member front and center and encouraged them to abandon their decency does not.

My sister in-law's husband and his dad used their statements to request that the Judge honor the legacy (politically active Christian) of the slain woman and NOT impose the death penalty, since they felt it would run counter to their beliefs.

The killer was sentenced to life in prison.

True story. 

I disagree with them on the death penalty, but stand in awe of their moral courage. 

97 What purpose does mitigating evidence introduced on behalf of the defendant serve? If the jury saw the crime scene photos, heard the evidence of the crime, why do they have to hear that when the murderer was 5 years old he was a good boy? The family of the defendant can ask the jury directly to spare the defendant's life.

None of that serves a valid purpose in the system, either.

98 The family member dealing with grief gets a pass, but the attorneys and the system that put that family member front and center and encouraged them to abandon their decency does not.

The family member of the victim has the absolute legal right to address the court before the imposition of sentencing. No one is forced or encouraged to "abandon their decency". Again, your lack of empathy towards family members is disturbing.



You can only be eligible for the death penalty after the jury recommends it. While I have heard of judges ignoring the jury's findings, it was appealed by the prosecution. So, I take your story with a serious grain of salt.

If he kills someone in prison or escapes and kills someone or orders a hit from prison, you can all discuss "moral courage" and your admiration of it with the family of the new victims you could have prevented.

99 Conveying to the defendant a desire that he be raped in prison is 'addressing the court'?

Bullshit.

Your elastic stretch to impart a negative angle to someone actually living up to their beliefs in this day and age?

Even more pungent bullshit.

100 "I always had that idea that every murderer was mean and vicious. When we faced the young man who killed her, we saw him as a nice-looking young man. We saw the face of God in this young man and we knew we couldn't put him to death..." .

...http://tinyurl.com/65thus...

...grain of salt MY ASS.

101 Originally you stated that the family had requested the judge not impose the death penalty.

This is not true because:

One, a judge can not impose the death penalty with out a jury hearing a penalty trial and finding the aggravating factors outweigh the mitigating ones. And checking the case law, no Missouri judge has ever sentenced a defendant to life after a jury recommended death.

Two, the website you linked to says the prosecutor allowed the defendant to plead out to lwop.

So, grain of salt YOUR ASS.

102 Conveying to the defendant a desire that he be raped in prison is 'addressing the court'?

Yes, it is. Your outrage that someone was rude to a guy who tortured and murdered 10 people and escaped the death the penalty is pathetic.

Your elastic stretch to impart a negative angle to someone actually living up to their beliefs in this day and age?

It's no stretch that people who murder will murder again. If this guy does, they are partially responsible.

103 I would say it's hard for me to say keep the emotion out but I do.
What happens with the victims who have no one to speak up for them emotionally? The runaway drug addicted whore raped and killed at 16?
Is her life worth less because nobody came and screamed about it?
By the same token I don't see why any mitigating evidence for the defendant should be allowed in the sentencing phase unless the defendant pleaded guilty.

One of the expressions that most gall me is how a sentence will "ruin a defendants life" especially over a "stupid mistake".
The defendant ruined his life, end of story. I don't see where it matters that it was a mistake. This kind of shit is what leads to the credence of hate crime legislation.
It shouldn't matter who the perp was or the victim. If the jury decodes the evidence says guilty then there should be a set sentence. Varying sentences should be allowed for in varying degrees of a crime which would have set criteria.

104

People, there is no argument here. The Constitution allows the death penalty. Cruel and Unusual Punishment was torture on the equivalent of drawing and quartering. And most important of all, a rapid and accurate death penalty prevents capitol crime and it has been proven. When the death penalty is actually implemented the murder rate goes down, when it is not it goes up.

 

And there has never been a real life fucking zombie to come up out of the ground and commit rape and murder again.

 

That only happens in the movies, usually directed by a liberal.

105 **Originally you stated that the family had requested the judge not impose the death penalty.

This is not true because:

One, a judge can not impose the death penalty with out a jury hearing a penalty trial and finding the aggravating factors outweigh the mitigating ones. And checking the case law, no Missouri judge has ever sentenced a defendant to life after a jury recommended death.

Two, the website you linked to says the prosecutor allowed the defendant to plead out to lwop.

So, grain of salt YOUR ASS**

I never said they asked him IN OPEN COURT.  Certainly you are aware that most of these details are worked out before the actual TV show trial takes place? 

**Your outrage that someone was rude to a guy who tortured and murdered 10 people and escaped the death the penalty is pathetic.**

It's not about someone being rude to a defendant. It's about a formal legal proceeding deteriorating to the point of condoning another crime.

If someone DOES rape him in prison, then she is partially responsible.

If you think that's okay, don't look now but you're just about down to his level.

Congratulations.  

106 Victim impact stuff is just crap designed to sway morons by emotion.

Lawyers love stuffing juries with morons. Lawyers like to think they are the smartest people in the room, and they are convinced that they can sway the jury better than the other guy.

It matters not how pretty the victim is, or how many friends they had. Crime is crime.

107 OOPS...

I did say that my in-laws asked for the killer's life in open court...and I was WRONG.

They negotiated the death penalty off the table and then used their impact statement to oppose the death penalty.

Still qualifies as "walking the walk" to me, even though I support the death penalty.

108 I never said they asked him IN OPEN COURT. Certainly you are aware that most of these details are worked out before the actual TV show trial takes place?

I never said you did, plus, it is irrelevant. Your exact words were: My sister in-law's husband and his dad used their statements to request that the Judge honor the legacy (politically active Christian) of the slain woman and NOT impose the death penalty, since they felt it would run counter to their beliefs.

Again, it is the prosecution, not the judge, who determines whether to charge special circumstances or not. And it is the jury, not the judge, who determines it will be imposed or not. The judge will not disturb the jury's finding. So, to say they requested the judge to not impose the death penalty in nonsense. It is not within the judge's power.

It's not about someone being rude to a defendant. It's about a formal legal proceeding deteriorating to the point of condoning another crime.

No, it's about you being a self righteous asshole.

If someone DOES rape him in prison, then she is partially responsible.

Hardly. The death penalty is absolute deterrence. If the defendant is executed he could not murder again. If you demand that his life be spared than if he murders again you are responsible. This is different from a victim stating she hoped the BTK was raped. But for the victim stating she hoped the BTK killer got raped, he would never had been raped. The causation, if it exists at all, is too remote.

If you think that's okay, don't look now but you're just about down to his level. Congratulations.

Thanks! Personally, I couldn't give a shit if the BTK got cornholed in prison.

109 What happens with the victims who have no one to speak up for them emotionally? The runaway drug addicted whore raped and killed at 16?

That's what the DA is there for - to speak for the victim. It's rare not to be able to find someone to personalize a victim no matter what their background was.

110 OOPS...

I did say that my in-laws asked for the killer's life in open court...and I was WRONG.

They negotiated the death penalty off the table and then used their impact statement to oppose the death penalty.

Still qualifies as "walking the walk" to me, even though I support the death penalty.

Well, big fucking deal. The DA, not the judge, decided to not file special circumstances. Therefore, there was no chance this guy was going to receive the death penalty and therefore nothing to oppose.

You are still a self righteous asshole.

111 **Well, big fucking deal. The DA, not the judge, decided to not file special circumstances. Therefore, there was no chance this guy was going to receive the death penalty and therefore nothing to oppose.

You are still a self righteous asshole.**

Damn! I was shooting for 'sanctimonious jagoff'.

112 Cruel and Unusual Punishment was torture on the equivalent of drawing and quartering.

I yearn for good old days of swift justice.

113 Damn! I was shooting for 'sanctimonious jagoff'.

You're that, too.

114

Stop the death penalty.

Institutionalize retroactive abortion. That way, we can use scissors to poke holes in the heads of murderers and suck their brains out with a vacuum cleaner.

The libs will love it.

115 **Damn! I was shooting for 'sanctimonious jagoff'.

You're that, too.**

I'll take it.  It still beats being a LAWYER.

116 Hi everyone,

I'm an undergrad researching an honors thesis on the subject of victim impact videos.  If anyone would be interested in talking to me about this--whether as an attorney, a judge, the family of a victim, or anyone else who is interested in the subject--I would really appreciate listening to what you had to say.

Contact me a camintz@stanford.edu

Thanks,
Charlie

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