1

"Michael Kinsley ruined both Slate and TNR"

He excercised his talents at the LA Times too.

2 TNR's been unreadable garbage ever since the children of the cornhole took it over.  Maybe they should give Glass his job back; he's no less credible than the rest.

3 Snark is the new form of debate. We have a new generation of imbeciles who have been raised on nothing but soundbites and think they know everything about a topic from a generalizing snarky wisecrack from a select few soundbites.

Just watch what passes for 'satirical political' humor on the Daily Show and Colbert. Or even the 'social commentary' on Family Guy, the Simpson's, and Soth Park.

This is the generation that Ayers created -- the ill-informed, dumbed down, know-it-all,  perpertual juvenile class of America.

4 We live in a Doonesbury comic strip world where all issues can be summed up in four cartoon-panels and eight sentences of snark.

5

This kind of triumphalism is of a piece with the crap about a "permanent conservative majority" we got from our side a few years ago.  It's fun at the time, but it blinds you of the need to continually work to convince the electorate that you deserve your job.  It is the drumroll for failure, leading up to the inevitable over-reach. 

Conservatives need to pick up and dust off our sorry butts and then get on with the business try to craft a message that will get our candidates elected (and mitigate damage caused by Obama/Pelosi/Reid).  One suggestion - go to some left wing blods and write, not as a snarky troll, but in an attempt to persuade.  Sure, it's an exercise in frustration most times, but we need to find out what moves the persuadable middle.  An echo chamber may have worked for dKos, but I think it is not a good long-term recipe for success.

6

Bart - Doonesbury was describing Ayers' generation.  They were the first 'too cool'generation.  So it goes a little bit older than what Ayers has created.

But yeah, a class of perpetual know-it-all adolescents.

7

The article links to MM and says she has the “details” in tracking these asshats but I couldn’t find any “details”. Am I missing something here or is TNR lying?

8 My favorite television quip was on Crossfire when David Duke called Michael Kinsley a worm.  Kinsley couldn't believe anyone would label him as such, and was muted for the rest of the show.  The little slimy puke is a worm.

9

Um...since Kinsley founded Slate, it's hard to see how he ruined it.  (Although one reading of your phrasing suggests that less talented Kinsley accolytes ruined it in his wake).  Kinsley has generally been one of my favorite liberals because he tries to be intellectually honest and is up front with his bias.  Yeah, Slate went downhill, but he recognized that he'd gotten stale and bowed out.

Also, because the Economist doesn't make stars of its stable, I only learned after the fact that he'd been their editor during the era when I thought it was at its best. 

(Disclaimer: none of the foregoing is to be interpreted in any manner as to suggest that calling Obama an empty suit is an insult to suits and the concept of emptiness.)

10 Don't make the mistake that the left made about conservative, that all of conservative electoral success was about method, not about ideas.  They just won an election after 12 years of one party, with a gifted tabula rosa of a candidate, in the midst of economic crisis.  They were also snarky, spiteful, and small.  That does not mean that we need to be snarkier, more spiteful, and smaller. 

11 nope lets just be ruthless, telentless and effective

12

I haven't read that ridiculous rag since Jon Chait's famous article. You remember the one - on just how wonderful it was to hate George W Bush. The nutroots took Chait's pathetic wad of preowned toilet-paper and canonised it as gospel. Most of the problems Bush faced can be traced to the country's divisions, in turn nurtured by an amoral Creative Class; and the intensity of this bile was given its moral imprimatur by TNR.

On the plus side, every few years TNR amuses us by publishing a plagiarist and/or bullshit artist. Shattered Glass has more sequels than Rocky.

13

in other news,  John Leonard, the persnickety critic for Sunday Morning with Charles Kuralt, died.

Charles Kuralt died a while ago. 

and I pretty much stopped watching Sunday Morning after that.

But John Leonard's dyspeptic takes on the arts made me a fan of professional wrestling, Toby Keith, and Monster Truck rallies.  So, I have him to thank for that.

14 Join the resistance - anystreet.org

15 Obama in his press conference earlier today (from LGF):

In terms of speaking to former presidents, I have spoken to all of them, uh, that are, uh, living ... obviously, uh, President Clinton, uh ... [laughter] ... hey, I didn’t want to get into a Nancy Reagan, uh, thing about doin’ any seances...

Classy, Obama.  Real classy.  Our President-Elect is a gloating teenager.

16 my penis.....grows smaller every time I see an attractive woman.

17

From the Hot Air headlines - Newsweek publishing a story that Obama will not be able to close Gitmo. (I refuse to actually click on the Newsweek link.)

Lefty protests? Barackhitler? Paper-mache heads?

18 That might be the case, if anything they were saying about Sarah Palin was true.  It's not.  It's all 100% bullshit so egregious that it really puts those spreading it beneath contempt.

Qwinn

19 Big tent just means there's more room for the backstabbers to hide. We can find them and kick them out without dismantling the whole thing.

20

One thing for everyone to remember on all sides....is that McCain lost by 4%.

If the Wall Street meltdown, perfectly timed for Obama, doesn't happen then, we go into election night deadlocked. McCain could have squeaked in and given the RHINOs ratification? (No, but they would argue that.) Kerry flips 60,000 votes in Ohio and 2004 becomes a mandate for...whatever he stood for? And 537 votes in Florida goe Gore's way, and....what?

 

21 OT - Hotair also has an article about potentially 5 governors that may be the future of the GOP. Interesting read. A commenter had a link to a Jindal speech in May 2008, I listened to it and he is very impressive.

22 Seattle Slough, you worthless asshole, anonymous leaks may get you off in gay bar men's rooms, but they're not enough basis for a responsible news report. Especially when they're as outlandish as the garbage vindictive bastards like you are pushing about Sarah Palin.

23

Dear Slut,

Sarah is the talent. You're the help. Too bad.

I hope your ex-pimp was serious when he said he would give you a reference. You're going to need it. So will the rest of the Gang Who Couldn't Backstab Straight.

It must suck to lose twice in one week.

24

Big tent just means there's more room for the backstabbers to hide. We can find them and kick them out without dismantling the whole thing.
-Treacher

The Dems don't even pretend to have a Big Tent. They have a room filled with cubicles, each identity group working side by side but not interacting, just trying to get their paycheck. Dem Inc.

25 OK, Slough, so every unsourced rumor is gospel now? Glad to know that's how it works, and that Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya who never attended a single class at Columbia, and that his wife routinely refers to Caucasians as "whitey". See, that goes both ways. Jerk-off.

26

"Moderates never beat conservatives. We've seen that in past elections," he said.

Rejecting suggestions that the conservative movement was viewed as being out of touch with the electorate, Perkins says the Republican Party needs to go back to basics.

"It's a return to fundamental conservative principles that Ronald Reagan showed work and that people can be attracted to," Perkins said.

It is time to bitterly grab our Bibles and our guns and take back our party. Cast out anyone not willing to stand upon the firmity of Christian ideals and cast back the godless communists, socialists, and fascists in our own party.

27

I thought I'd pop in just to tell everyone I'm going to the inauguration with a gun. Yep, a gun.

Of course, it'll be a squirt gun filled with my own whizz. And not the clear afternoon stuff, either, but the first piss in the morning. The dark, smelly whizz that's been sitting in the bladder all night.

 

28 Wow, TNR is still in business?

29 This coming from the party that is literally banishing anyone who says anything bad (even if it is true) about Sarah Palin?

Which ones are true, Seattle's Slut?  And who's been literally banished?  Vetting you is more fucking trouble than you're worth since all you post is bullshit.

30 I like this Joshua guy. He introduces a touch of levity to things.

31

jaleach,

Not funny.  Not in the slightest.

32

Pssst. Joshua, the igjay is upway. Please proceed to your next blog target.

33 How does Andy Sullivan call himself a conservative? That's just embarassing.

Who said Chris Buckley, Noonan and Parker are conservative?

O'Rielly conservative, no way.

How do we get our own "spokesmen"?

And have we established a legitimate list of the backstabbers in the McCain campaign? I want to remember those names.

And our tent is open to anyone who wants small government, lower taxes, fiscal responsibility, strong military and border control.

We'll argue over the other stuff later.

34 Flenser, now is not the time to be passive. We are in the fight of our lives. Since Roe v. Wade, 40 million souls have been lost from this Earth. With Obama as President, how many millions more will die? We have to make a stand now.

35 I have a question while we are on this subject. How did the New York Times find out that the RNC is sending a lawyer to Alaska to catalog Sarah Palins fucking clothes? Is there anyone in the Republican Leadership that can keep their mouth shut about internal business or is that to much to ask? We need to start cleaning house.

36 KB:

You seemed to put words together in a structure that looks like a series of sentences, yet I don't think anyone has any idea what you are talking about.
I certainly don't.


Qwinn, bgates:

How about a little Occam's razor?  Perhaps, just maybe, the reason all these people, (liberal and conservative alike) are saying that Palin isn't all that bright and/or knowledgeable are saying so because she, in fact, isn't all that bright and/or knowledgeable.

Or I suppose it could be a highly organized conspiracy of liberals, women haters, and republicans looking to sign lucrative book contracts jumping on Palin's missteps which were in no way representative of her acumen.  It could be that. 

But it probably isn't.

37 Joshua fooled me once.

38 PS. - You forgot lesson 29: always capitalize the 'G' in God. Don't be an amateur.

39 You only capitalize God when referencing the Lord. godless of false gods and idols should never be capitalized.

40 There is some good news. On hot air they have a video of the Principle of the school that dreadful Obama supporting teacher works at. She is the one who ranted about McCain and told the little girl who's dad is in Iraq that he could be there 100 years if McCain is elected. The principle is pissed and  said he is taking appropriate action against that Nazi bitch.

41 maybe, the reason all these people, (liberal and conservative alike) are saying that Palin isn't all that bright

I have seen no conservative people say anything of the sort.

I've seen some Republican people, (not to be confused with conservative people) say that they think she lacks experience at present.

In other words, you're lying like a liberal.

42 So when a former McCain staffer (and presumed republican) says she couldn't name the three nations in NAFTA, or that Africa wasn't a country, they were saying she lacked experience? 

Joshua:  are you suggesting you only have to capitalize the G for gods you actually believe in?

43 No, they were fucking lying, dumbass.

44 Competant women strike fear, and loathing in the hearts of some "men".

45

#17

I posted a comment predicting that Gitmo wouldn't be closed.  Although it is Newsweek, my prediction may be accurate.

We'll need more studies, and then studies of those studies, and then a committee to reconcile those studies and issue a report, and then a review of that report in light of new information, and then a blue-ribbon board to issue a recommendation....

46 You definitely capitalize God in reference to the God, our Father, of the Christian faith. There is some debate as to whether you capitalize pronouns referring to God - yes, the one true God. In some translations of the Bible, they capitalize pronouns referencing God, others do not.

Capitalization of God is a recognition and delineation between the one true God and those gods of the false religions.

47 Q: What's the difference between Gov Palin thinking that Africa is a country and Barack Obama saying that there are 59 states in America?

A: One actually happened on camera. The other one was a lie.

48 Joshua at November 07, 2008 05:20 PM (t7gMW)

Joshua! Show us your tits!

49 Who let Seattle Slough back in?

50 So when a former McCain staffer (and presumed republican) says she couldn't name the three nations in NAFTA, or that Africa wasn't a country, they were saying she lacked experience?


Which former McCain staffer are you speaking of? Give me the name and I'll answer the question.

51 LOL, wow nice to see the party eating each other. Stay classy 46%.

52

Seattle Slough at November 07, 2008 05:33 PM (H5l9d

Was the tape lying when Biden thought FDR was President during the 1929 stock market crash. Was the tape lying when Obama thought Arkansas was closer to Kentucky than Illinois which happens to border Kentucky.

Maybe both conservatives and liberals can agree on that.  

 

53 [Suck it, lefty. How do you like the new America?]

54 So quick question from confused guy. Is this forum pro social conservatism or not?

55 What was the name again?

In America we expect people to be able to face their accusers, rather then be lied about anonymously,

56 Fuck off, syd.

57 I look forward to 4 years of stupidity from Joe Biden! Something tells me they are going to try keep him locked up in a dark closet somewhere and prop him out periodically for photo ops.

58 Umm? What?

59 Ummm? What?

60 One last f'ing time.

Go listen to this interview and then tell me if you think Governor Palin is dumb, slow or anything else.

www.bobandmark.com

61 And it's 48% to you, dumbass.

62 So, Settle Slow, what do you think of the anonymous accusations that Teleprompter Jesus had his way through Harvard paid by the KGB?

I mean, the accusation is out there. Seems like somebody needs to address it.

63

flenser,

You are in danger of slipping into tautology:

Conservatives all defend Palin, therefor anyone who doesn't defend her isn't a conservative. 

At least be open to the idea that she's not a genius.  Intelligence is overrated in a President, anyway.  I still think she got a bit of a bum deal, but, on the other hand, "what papers do you read" isn't really a typical "gotcha" kinda question.  I think she needs to govern, study, write, and speak for at least the next two years.  At that time, we'll have a fuller idea of what she is capable of, and whether she should be our standard bearer. 

Look, I wanted McCain to nominate Palin.  I _really_ want her to be the real deal.  Still, everyone has to admit that she has to present herself in a way to overcome the current narrative.  Ask yourself, would you be so keen to have her bear the standard is she was not drop dead gorgeous?

64 how soon they forget how stupid she made Biden look at the debate

65 I honestly think that Joe Biden's aneurysm was far more extensive than any of us were led to believe. This man says crazy things. He contradicts himself, be makes things up, I feel kind of bad laughing at someone who is probably not mentally competent. I think during the debate he had 17 proven falsehoods.

And of course, we have all heard him on the campaign trail and during congressional hearings. That's really a freak show on his part. Something is not right there.

66 Conservatives all defend Palin, therefor anyone who doesn't defend her isn't a conservative.

Oh, good. One of those liberals who thinks he's an intellectual.

I'm not impressed by your amateur hour trick of changing the terms of debate to something which suits you better. I did not say or imply that "Conservatives all defend Palin, therefor anyone who doesn't defend her isn't a conservative".

67 flenser,

Your acerbic posts really aren't progressing the dialogue. I've seen you denigrate just about anyone who mildly expresses a worldview outside of your own. You have a few other people here sharing the same tone. I know you understand the idea of a coalition, so how about you start putting up.

68

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate at November 07, 2008 05:57 PM

Why do you ignore the actual evidence of her intelligence and accomplishments in favor of half truths and lies.  Its the same MO they use on every Republican. Eisenhower was even portrayed as non intellectual.  Reagan and GWB have been portrayed even worse. Now its Palin.  See the pattern?

69 Ask yourself, would you be so keen to have her bear the standard is she was not drop dead gorgeous?

Ask yourself why you assume that everyone else is as moronic as you are. I don't consider her to be "drop dead gorgeous".

70 portfolio, what?

71 Someone asks a question or poses their own view and its straight to the f-bomb. Not a practical way of doing political business.

72 Your acerbic posts really aren't progressing the dialogue.

Nor is your pretentious bullshit. If you have anything to say, please say it.

I know you understand the idea of a coalition

Here's a chance for you to engage in that dialogue. Yes, I understand the idea of a coalition. Why don't you "put up" and describe the coalition you have in mind?

73 Seattle Slug is doing his usual job of presenting bullshit as facts and flenser catches the heat.  I swear the fucking Wizard of Uhhhs has officially begun Bizarro World.

74 Wait a minute, Governor Palin got shot down big time from the liberals for her beauty. If anything it may have held her back (with regard to the beauty contest, which I could care less about).

I thought it was great she was so attractive. She cut a very nice figure while presenting herself nationally. In general I think people appreciate an attractive person. But, I could have cared less what she looked like as long as she sounded like a conservative and I think many would agree.

I never thought Lincoln was particularly hot, but what he said sure turned me on.

75

Someone asks a question or poses their own view and its straight to the f-bomb. Not a practical way of doing political business.

No the f-bomb came after Syd made his comment LOL, wow nice to see the party eating each other. Stay classy 46%.

Try to keep up so you don't look foolish.

76 Portfolio, we swear here. About everything. Better get used to that in any dialog. Most can give as good as they get. Are you up to it?

77 I have been at AoSHQ for the majority of the primary and GE season, just lurking. I'm not a fan of mealy-mouthed moderates either. However, attacking people with vulgarity because tilt by 3 degrees in either direction of your comfort zone just pisses people off. I am pretty sure that Ace and others would like to see the community grow and have information shared, digested, and replied to in kinda positive, constructive way.

Most of the people here agree on most of the positions Ace and other bloggers take, else they wouldn't be here. Using the comments section to beat people about the head and shoulders is just stupid when all they ask for is clarification or to express a different opinion within AoSHQ's general beliefs.

78 77-Sack up Nancy

79 You don't understand Ace's if you think he's looking for our mental, spiritual or emotional growth.

You must use facts or you will be beaten around the head and neck and deservedly so.

80 No one comes here for civility. Well, I don't. Anyone?

81 portfolio, if you've been lurking here for as long as you claim (and I'm not doubting that) you know that a lot of snarky trolls and mobys show up.  When a noob shows up and starts asking things that people aren't necessarily sure where they're coming from, the automatic troll deflectors get engaged.  It's not always called for but I'm sure you can understand the reaction.

82 Nah, it's cool. Flenser, I know youve been around for a while. I'm just seeing all this hate in the RNC and people attacking one another and I lost it for a bit. My apology for going hyper defensive. I just hate that we lost and now Palin is being led out to be lynched.

83 No one comes here for civility. Well, I don't. Anyone?

JOM == Civility
AoS == (Id + Angst) * Profanity

84 However, attacking people with vulgarity because tilt by 3 degrees in either direction of your comfort zone

Ummm, you're talking about Syd and Seattle Slow?

They don't "tilt 3 degrees outside my comfort zone". They're our enemy, and we are theirs. They are crystal clear on that point. Why aren't you?

85 We all hate that McCain lost and now Palin is being led out to be lynched. However, we are not going to let that happen.

86 My apology for going hyper defensive.

It's cool. These are trying times.

87 I agree Cap'n. Especially with D-nozzles like Rahm getting top billing, profanity has its place. I'm in this weird Conservative (Republican?) existential dilemma at the moment. I guess I'm just looking for solidarity against the much greater threat of BO and the coming Thugs.

88 I just hate that we lost and now Palin is being led out to be lynched.

You're among kindred souls.

89 portfolio: "However, attacking people with vulgarity because tilt by 3 degrees in either direction of your comfort zone just pisses people off."

If it were just ±3° variance, you'd have a point. Alas, you've understated the difference. You'll need to specify the exact commentary for me to be sure how differing the views, but if it's the one I think it is that escalated the issue, then it was a pretty offensive (in a misogynist way) shot at Palin.

She deserves better and to defend her using a rhetorical, if not vulgar, barrage is not out of line here. And has been stated, Mobies chime in to help set the narrative in stone. They need to be challenged because disingenuous smears deserve a spanking.

90

Ask yourself why you assume that everyone else is as moronic as you are. I don't consider her to be "drop dead gorgeous".

Look, your sexual preference is your own bag, but you are kidding yourself is you think that Palinmania didn't get some of its power from her VPILFiness.  The Left can win on looks and platitudes, but they have the MSM to carry their water.  I think the Right wins with ideas, as in the transformative victories of Reagan and Gingrich (although, to be fair, the Bushes won with various combinations of coattails, a muddled vision of governance, and crappy opponents). 

I repeat that I have high hopes for Palin; she is the best natural potitician on the Right probably since Reagan.  However, I don't think that talent _by itself_ will be enough to for her win.   I want her to lay out a vision for conservative governance and try to convince America as to why it is better than Obamaism.

91

Strangely, Rahm Emanual is somewhat comforting.  Hyper-partisan?  Sure, I expect that from a CoS, but he is also functional.  He won't give Kos what Kos wants.  He will use Kos, but he will not be Kos.

A foe who is worthy of being a foe.  A nazgul, not an orc.

92 Those of you who've responded to Slough are being played.

Slough is a distraction, analogous to a small unit that ties down valuable resources and deters them from the main effort. As long as you allow him to, he'll waste your time.

Sheesh, people. You find this character compelling because he/she can string together a sentence that doesn't sound like Axelrod prolespeak.

"Don't feed the trolls" is cliche, but it's certainly valuable advice in this case.

Portfolio: Fuck you. That translates as "welcome to the club. You're buying the first round."

93

One suggestion - go to some left wing blods and write, not as a snarky troll, but in an attempt to persuade.  Sure, it's an exercise in frustration most times, but we need to find out what moves the persuadable middle.  An echo chamber may have worked for dKos, but I think it is not a good long-term recipe for success.  __________________________________________

How about meeting some of us liberals in the middle?  Guest-post on each other's blogs, with cogent arguments backed up by facts.  Debate issues and candidates like grown-ups without partisanship, name-calling, snark and flamewars.

But you won't get that at Cheetoville.  Markos is on the Obamite payroll, and his followers snort the Kool-aid dry right from the package.

 

94 Mikey,

Emanual isn't likely to let Obama abandon Israel, either.  He volunteered for the IDF and  his Dad lives there.  Hyper partisan, sure, but he's not anti-American or anti-cvilization.  He's a guy you're proud to fight with.

95

By the way - identifying backstabbers and tale-tellers doesn't shrink any tent.  No party should want that person about because the next back may be yours.  Identifying them is best.  Every campaign is going to have personality clashes, every campaign is going to have advice given and advice discounted.  That is normal.  Egos that are slighted because every word out of their lips is not treated like gospel?  No campaign, no staff, needs that.

A better resume is working on campaigns and not letting every little snit make you bitter and malicious.  I have worked on a state campaign.  I have seen and heard things.  I don't talk of them.  Period.  The tale-tellers are indulging themselves, but killing their own futures, if this is what they do for a living.

And I doubt there are that many book contracts.

96

Emanual isn't likely to let Obama abandon Israel, either.  He volunteered for the IDF

Where do you get that Manual was a member of the IDF. It isn't in his biography?

97

#94 The Obvious

Obama may have used Ayers, he may have used Wright, he may have used Alinsky.  And there is the lesson of Clinton '92-'94.  There is a lot of room under Air Force One, if you know what I mean.

98 Didn't Emanual turn on the Clintons?

99

#96

Emanual wasn't in the IDF, but I think he went over during GWI to help.  And his parents were part of Begin's group back in the 1940's.

Anyway, we will see, but I doubt Emanual is one to let power slide away, especially the power the USA has and the POTUS wields.

Emanual is not an intellectual, he is not a member of 'the chattering class', he is effective at doing.

100 myiq2xu at November 07, 2008 06:53 PM (rbTSD)

It's a bit too soon...

101 Plus, we have to many aholes coming here to fight.

102

#98

Yes.  But who were the Clintons to him or he to the Clintons?

And did he ever tell tales, or is he a good party man?

Ideology is one thing; and party is another.

103 99, thanks I didn't think he was. Emanual is a strict hyper partisan Chicago Pol. All this bullshit about reaching across the ilse and CHANGING the way politics is done is Washington expoused by Obama just went out the window in appointing him. Who could have guessed Obama was lying?

104
Well, from TNR's point of view, McCain was the best GOP candidate in 20 years.  He lost.  At least, Dole lost to a sitting President and Bush the First one one time.  McCain lost an open seat and he never won.  He's our man.  He's the best.

105 "best candidate in 20 years???"

gee, I know G.W. Bush wasn't the best candidate ever, but I would think the fact he won would still put him above the flavor of the week Palin.

I can't help but notice that many, not all, but many of these same people who are "I heart Palin" fanclubbers now were the same people who adored Mitt Romney, and all because he purported to be the conservative candidate. It's sad, actually, to see you guys casting about for a hero so forlornly and desperately you take whatever you can get.

Palin has proven to be a pretty poor candidate, actually. She had the highest negs of any of the 4 main candidates, the lowest positives, the lowest rating on experience and "ready to be president-ness". The only reason she's such a darling now is that conservatives have _no_ conservative politician of national standing on which to hand their hat, so they are all head over heels for Palin.

Personally, I've gone from really rooting for her to resenting her after her terrible interviews and debate performance. Getting crowds means _nothing_, as losing FL, OH and PA show, where everyone was touting her huge crowds. They meant nothing, in fact, less than nothing, as they gave false hope.

106 "Terrible debate performance"?

107

doc you are a weasel.

Why not start your post with I am a concerned christian? You need to quit drinking the MSM Koolaid.

If not for Palin this would have been a 50 State blowut. McLame lost because of McLame 100% and if he had not nominated Palin he would not have even carried AZ.

108 And BTW, I opposed liberal Romney.

109

Part of the aftermath needs to be a putting to bed of certain myths:

The MSM may have been biased, but the polls were actually pretty accurate in aggregate (RCP avg.).  While we may have liked Palin's debate performance, at best she achieved a draw in public opinion.  Fair?  No, not when Biden gets credit for spouting glib falsehood.  Still, if _everyone_ on the AOSHQ liveblog is going "huh, kicked Hezbollah out of Lrbanon" and _she_ does not call him on it, then that is not a good moment in the debate.  She simply must do better.

110 Markos is on the Obamite payroll, and his followers snort the Kool-aid dry right from the package.

<guffaw!> I am sooo stealing this.

111

Sorry, Doc Weasel, but Gov. Palin was just the v.p.candidate, she wasn't the top of the ticket.  The concentration on that says a lot - like that she is charismatic, that she is a draw, and that she must be destroyed before she becomes truly dangerous.

Really - what campaign has spent its time fighting the v.p. candidate as opposed to the presidential candidate since - ever?  When has anyone ever spent his time blaming the v.p. candidate for an election loss - ever?

112

Personally, I've gone from really rooting for her to resenting her after her terrible interviews and debate performance. Getting crowds means _nothing_, as losing FL, OH and PA show, where everyone was touting her huge crowds. They meant nothing, in fact, less than nothing, as they gave false hope.

Riiight.  Palin is the reason that we lost those states.  Not John "Reach-around the Aisle" McCain and his "fuck the base, gimme the apolitical squishes" stupid-on-its-face strategy for self-immolation.

Replace Palin with Pawlenty, or Romney, or Ridge(!), and McCain wins Texas by 0.0002% and loses 49.  End of story.

But go right on making asses of yourselves blaming the Vice Presidential candidate for McCain's incompentent, half-assed campaign.  It's Sarah Palin's fault that McCain lost 20% of George W. Bush's voters (who, by the way, won twice pretty much without any help from the ridiculously overvalued "middle").

The Base is what matters.  The Base is what drives the GOTV and fills the coffers.  You can win with The Base but little else.  You can never win without it.  Ask two-term President George W. Bush.  Or Senator-for-life John McCain.

113 Im not saying she's why we lost. Im saying she did not help, not one iota. The polls, it turns out, were correct. She was a net drag on the ticket. Deal with it. If you want to hitch your wagon to a loser who appealed to the wingers, fine, but I don't see her unseating Obama in '12. If Obama is a one-termer, it's going to because times are very hard and he bungled. The public is not going to be in a mood to hand the country to another novice on trust.

The base worked fine when Republicans were not such a majority. The fact is, the base did vote in numbers equal to 2004. It didn't  matter becuase there weren't enough Republicans. The base my ass. McCain lost because he lost independents. He got a great percentage of Republicans than Obama did Dems.

read and learn

fuck the base. the base's whining is part of what lost us the election. Rush and Malkin-types who never wanted McCain to win anyway. Fuck them. They aren't conservatives and they aren't republicans, they are only worried about their own careers. Fuck them running.

114 Doc:

You're spot-on. It's a case I made earlier this week, to similar results. Palin is fine, and she did yeoman's work for the party in the last few months, but to lionize her and make her the champion is to send the GOP into a political exile that'll last longer than four years.

As for Rush and Malkin: Their preaching to the converted is fine so far as it goes, but after awhile, it becomes repetitious and unimaginative.

115

If Obama is a one-termer, it's going to because times are very hard and he bungled.

Uh, "times being very hard" and "Bush bungling" are the only reasons Obama won, no matter who the Republicans ran as an alternative.  Bush's shitty "compassionate conservatism" and John McCain's "fuck you" brand of non-convervatism are also a great reason why so many conservatives stopped identifying as Republicans (see also: Chaos, Operation).

Again, if John McCain pick a squish just like him, then he loses 49 states (go on now -- argue the Lieberman option for entertainment's sake).  Any other assertion is a fucking fantasy, unless you want to pretend that conservatives could ever be outvoted by independents choosing to vote for the Republican.  It's not an even exchange.  For every 5 conservatives he sheds, he picks up, what -- one fucking "independent"?  YAY for remedial math!

Yeah, run with that guys.  You're the smart ones.  The Republican brand is shit because, goshdarnit, the Republicans have been just too conservative this decade.  We don't need an undercard that actually, you know, excites THE core constituency of the party, right?  Nosiree.  All those phonebanks and door-to-door canvassing jobs are going to be manned by super-enthusiastic "independents" for McCain-Ridge '08.

Lunacy.

116

fuck the base. the base's whining is part of what lost us the election.

Fuck you and the rest of the dissembling squishy bitches who can't be bothered to actually adopt a consistent and coherent socio-political ideology.  Your fist-forcing of a bland, confused, Dole-redux candidate with a horribly strained relationship with the people without whom he could not possibly win is what lost "us" the election.

But go on and pretend that, say, Ohio would have been close if pretty much the entirety of Southern Ohio stayed home on the 4th.  Knock yourself out.

117 Every time a lib,starts talking about the intelligence of a conservitive , it leads to them calling you stupid.
Happens everytime
EVERY DARN TIME.EVERY DAMN TIME!!
It never fails.its fricking rerun.


tony
south haven

118 The Tent Grows Smaller Every Day

I don't think of it as getting smaller, as it should shed the excess fat of the "moderates" that have been holding it down and threatening to give it a massive cariac arrest. I'd rather it be a leaner, tougher fighting machine.

119 if the ticket was McCain/Pawlenty,.. the map would have looked all blue except Minn..  maybe..

and i'll give Arizona as well.

Voter turn out was less than it was in 04..  because the candidate for President, John McCain, could not and/or would not excite his base to ge tout and vote. 

do a survey of people who voted forMcCain Because of Sarah Palin on the ticket.. I bet you would be surprised..

120

 Voter turn out was less than it was in 04 because the candidate for President, John McCain, could not and/or would not excite his base to ge tout and vote. 

McCain reached out to the base by picking Palin and the base seemed thrilled.  (Even noted McCain Hater Rush Limbaugh started calling him McBrilliant after Palin got on board.) That implies the reason the base didn’t turn out like it did in 2004 is:

1)       The base hates McCain more than they love Palin.

2)      The base hates McCain more than they hate, fear and/or loathe Obama

121

McCain lost because Bush was a hated president.

Any analysis that doesn't start with that fact is doomed to fail. At the least, you have to acknowledge that Bush was actually unpopular, and not just seemingly unpopular due to unfair media treatement.

122 Totally unfair to say that The New Republic is a magazine built on partisan snark.  In fact, a lot of it was built on false reporting, too.

123 So when a former McCain staffer (and presumed republican) says she couldn't name the three nations in NAFTA, or that Africa wasn't a country, they were saying she lacked experience?

I just assume that reporters are making up shit out of whole cloth and have no sources other than the voices in their heads.

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