1 I'm sorry you're hurting, Gabriel.

I'd offer you a hug, but...y'know.  Just a beer or something, man?

We're cool, right?

2 On Prop 8: I know most of you disagree with me about it. But could we have a moment of silence for those poor fools who were happily married or engaged yesterday and today are finding out that they don't have squat?

Their misery is my entertainment.  Popcorn,  anyone?

3 They're not being denied any rights I have. Being married isn't a "right". I don't know what people don't get about that. If they're sad, oh well. I'm sad they're indoctrinating our children with their filth.
But, cheer up dude. Some liberal judge will strike down the proposition. Wait and see.

4 I was curious about something in that one commercial about Prop 8, where they took the class to a lesbian wedding as a "teachable moment"...did they take the class to a hetero wedding also?

And no that's not rhetorical, I really don't know.

5

Gabriel,

Although I don't agree with you on this one, I am sorry you are hurting.

 

 

6 Best Wishes Gabriel Malor.

7 I'd gladly trade legalized gay marriage for parents being notified when their underage daughter goes to a clinic to have an abortion performed. 

Not that I support gay marriage (I do welcome a compromise like Civil Unions), but the other prop seemed more important to me.

8

Shy Yll,

I agree, parent notification is so important, I can't believe that one passed.

9

Marriage isn't a "right" and nothing is being taken away from couples who are living together.

No one is telling them that they can't love each other.

No one is telling them that they can't live together.

No one is telling them that they aren't a 'couple.'

They simply don't get to use the label of being 'married.'

10 Wow.  I'm really hurting for all the guy who want to marry their sisters.  The gals who want to marry their Doberman Pinschers.  The pain.  The hurt.  The dudes who want a half dozen wives?  Is it hurt x 6?  Gotta be.  Got.  To.  Be.

11 I'm with you, buddy.  Well, except that my relationship was never legally recognized in my state (FL) anyway, but now we have a handy constitutional amendment to make sure I'm extra-not-married.

12 "They are hurting today. And I'm one of them." I don't think one has to have a formal marriage to have a great lasting relationship, but I can understand why you're hurting. I didn't realize you're gay. It shows courage to come out of the closet like this on a conservative website... even if anonymously. But I'm kidding you. I understand you're probably anonymous more because of your conservative views, not your sexual orientation: You live in California after all! One day, Gabriel Malor: They're just not ready for you yet.

13 Sorry that you're hurting Gabriel. 

14

So, does anyone have any ideas about the policy changes obama has in store for our schools? I'm trying to decide if now is the time to homeschool, at least for my 11 year old. I think my 14 year old will kill me if I pulled her out of highschool right now.

15 Gabriel,

You really need to get the hell out of California. It is not good for your mental health. Why don't you guys just elect a legislature and let them make these laws? I mean what good is it to have that big old State house in Sac if no one uses it?

16 Hey man, I do feel bad that these people had a legal marriage that is now being taken away from them - but the issue here is not whether or not same-sex marriage should be sanctioned.  The issue here is that the judiciary overstepped its bounds.  Throughout history,  marriage has been a hetero-sexual institution.  In our country, there was no law saying it was a hetero-sexual institution because everyone knew that it was.

Personally, I'm in favor of Civil Unions.  But they must be achieved the right way!  The voters must be persuaded to make that policy into law.  Heck, Civil Unions aren't enough and homosexuals want to get full Marriage status then back a bill that will support that.

You can blame the people who voted for Prop 8 because they disagree with Gay Marriage or because they are resentful of judicial legislation... but I think you also have to blame the judges who crafted a policy that had no business being put into place.

17

I have never understood why gays want to get married.  Having been through TWO divorces, I don't see the attraction. 

A legal union with a CONTRACT would be better for straight and gay couples.  It should also have a mandatory expiration date of say 10 years, but renewable if both couples agree.

Sorry your hurting, me too, too much Jagger.

Kemp

 

18
Indeed, it is shameful your happiness has been denied by California's morons.

Why on earth do you support a party and include as your "friends" those who eagerly deny you rights to live as a free human being?

Really weird, gabriel. Really.

19 I honestly don't give a single solitary fuck about how Californians choose to govern themselves. Democracy is a bitch when you lose and your best gal when you win. Oh well. Life is hard and all that shit.

As to people hurting, that is always true. Somewhere somebody is mourning the loss of a loved one. Or something else they hold dear. Suck it up.

I'm not a hard hearted person, but I'm also not going to lose sleep about the democratic process working to the disappointment of some. That's just the fucking breaks.

20

If someone is hurting because the goverment took away a government-sponsored label, then they really need to get a grip.

You are still in the same relationship as you were yesterday and nothing of any real meaning has changed.

If yesterday you loved your partner and they loved you, then chances are that the same thing exists today.

21 Santos, imagine for a minute that your neighbors held a vote and decided that your marriage was null and void.

22

They simply don't get to use the label of being 'married.'

And that's only in the legal sense of the word (which should be destroyed completely anyways but I digress.)

There's nothing stopping a church that wants to from holding gay marriages, and declaring that you're married, or even just some ceremony declaring it, and calling the significant other your husband or wife.  And I don't think many people would argue that point, and those who do you shouldn't care what they think anyways.

23 That sucks, Gabriel. I feel really sorry for you.

Who, or what, anybody wants to marry is precisely none of my, or the state's, business.

The state needs to get out of the marriage business, period.

24

#20

Excellent point!

25 Any bets on howlong before Israel turn's Iran into a sheet of glass before Bush leaves office?

26

^{_{On Prop 8: I know most of you disagree with me about it. But could we have a moment of silence for those poor fools who were happily married or engaged yesterday and today are finding out that they don't have squat? Prop 8 was much more personal than some silly high-speed train or hospital funding. People are hurting today. And I'm one of them.}}

 

_{^{Gabe:  You have my sympathy.  If I lived in California I would have voted for gay marriage, primarily for the reasons you stated.  I hope this can be worked out with the voters and legislature in time.}} 

27 Sucked in faggots. You especially Gabriel.

28 Did Gabe just come out of the closet?  And I'm being serious and not trying to be insensitive.

29 Wow.  I'm really hurting for all the guy who want to marry their sisters.  The gals who want to marry their Doberman Pinschers.  The pain.  The hurt.  The dudes who want a half dozen wives?  Is it hurt x 6?  Gotta be.  Got.  To.  Be.

Posted by: Dang at November 05, 2008 10:34 AM (XFyLb)

Dude.  Don't pour salt on wounds.  I didn't know Gabriel was gay, but he's OUR gay, and that's uncalled for.  Asshole.

30

Santos, imagine for a minute that your neighbors held a vote and decided that your marriage was null and void.

Gabe, I would giggle and point at them.

31 "Santos, imagine for a minute that your neighbors held a vote and decided that your marriage was null and void."

My neighbors could say anything they want about my marriage...


...and it wouldn't change one darn thing about my relationship with my wife.

32 Gabriel,

I'm not married yet, though perhaps I will find that right woman someday.  But if I was, I would be pissed as hell.  That being said, I am buying into a system that has been in place for millenia.  There is no judge that arbitrarily ruled that the relationship I wanted to enter into was wrong. 

A better analogy would be if I was living in Utah when the US forced Mormons to stop having multiple wives.  It used to be allowed, pretty much, under the laws of their church (and therefore the laws of their community), but they sold out for the right of statehood.

Society makes these judgments.  My only point is that if you want to change it, fight it at the ballot box.  Judges don't exist to make laws.  I really do, sincerely, wish you and your partner the best.

33

#25

Any Joo holidays coming up?  Excellent time to "Celebrate" with a little fire power.

Next three weeks would be my guess.  Before Thanksgiving, our troops will be fucking off then, and they will need our help.

How does November 18th sound?  Two weeks after the election?

34

I'm trying to decide if now is the time to homeschool, at least for my 11 year old.

If I had the open blog password, I'd start a "Welcome, new homeschoolers" thread.

35

"Rights" do not encompass the right to fundamentally re-define a well established societal institution

Partnerships/civil unions, fine. No problem at all. You can have all the "rights" of married couples.

 But re-defining marriage- which has always been defined as a union of a man and a woman, I dont know. I cant support that, but maybe im being an asshole

36

Cheer up Gabe.  They won by only 52%, a vast improvement from 8 years ago.  Let the lawsuits challenging this as an unconstitutional revision begin!  :-)

37

As I understand Prop 8 everyone who was married yesterday is still married today.  Nothing changes in that regard.  Prop 8 doesn't invalidate any marriages.  If a couple didn't take advantage of the newly discovered "right' when they had the chance, they're out of luck.

You may not agree with Prop 8, but it's better to have the voters make those decisions than judges.

38

A moment of silence for you Gabriel.

...

But please remember this... you are not the sum of what the government does and does not allow you to do.  What you should do now is fight for your rights not in terms of a name or status symbol, but in terms of bequeathing your property, or sharing join property/notification/custody rights with whomever you choose.

All rights boil down to property rights.  And in those terms, I am on your side.

39 My neighbors could say anything they want about my marriage...


...and it wouldn't change one darn thing about my relationship with my wife.

except any legal standing you had.  which, y'know, might warrant a big "fuck you" from a true love never dies standpoint, but does have certain financial implications.

40 "Santos, imagine for a minute that your neighbors held a vote and decided that your marriage was null and void."

I'd think alot of married people would thank god for this

Gabe, what is it about a marriage that you couldn't do with a legal contract?

41 No friends here, gabriel. None.

That prop 8 is a signature victory for republicans tells you all you need to know about your party.

42 Gabe, if gays should wed, then please give a rational argument why a man marrying three willing, of age, women is illegal?

43 Prop 6 was too confusing for lay people.

44 I'm sorry you're hurting GM.  But I don't think it's a right either (can I sue the gov't of Mass to find me someone nice?).

45

Any Joo holidays coming up?  Excellent time to "Celebrate" with a little fire power.

Chanukah seems appropriate, don't you think?  Late December.

46 To be honest, I'm a getting a bit sick of people screaming about 'rights' that are really privileges.

Of course, the problem there is really the lack of good education going on in our public high schools.

And let me also agree with all that have stated that the problem in California is that they want the judiciary to create and enact laws.

If California wants same-sex marriages then the legislators should do their job.

The public, as a whole, has a hard time when judges decided to legislate.

47 Did Gabe just come out of the closet?  And I'm being serious and not trying to be insensitive.

Posted by: A Different Dave in Texas at November 05, 2008 10:42 AM (BeN0f)

I believe that sound you heard was the rattle of hangers.  Couldn't care less.  Gay or not, Gabriel's a moron.  In the best way.

48 From the Corner:

According to exit polls, whites opposed the amendment 53-47.  But blacks supported it 70-30, and Latinos supported it 51-49.  The polls have blacks at 10 percent of the electorate for this issue, with Latinos at 19 percent and whites at 63 percent.  (Asians, at six percent, opposed the proposition 53-47.)

Heh.  Such succulent, delicious irony.

Qwinn

49 please give a rational argument why a man marrying three willing, of age, women is illegal?

Because fire codes dictate you can only have one stove in the kitchen.

OH SNAP.

50 There are two issues here. The first, and probably most important, is that it is none of anyone's business who we choose to bind ourselves to legally. Whether it is called marriage or civil union doesn't matter, but the reality is that those things are legally different!

The second issue is the hypocritical tone that many conservatives display. Oh, we love the sanctity of the contract, and the government shouldn't have anything to say about how we run our businesses, and we'll buy as many guns each month as we feel like, and don't you dare check on me when I buy them. And what the fuck is up with affirmative action? But when two men want to get married, the government has to step in and say no?

I am happily married here in socialist New Jersey, and if Gabriel wants to move here and agitate for marriage rights for gays, I will support him. That is the conservative thing to do.

51 Are the previous marriages invalidated? I did not know that.

52 "Joe the Plumber" - quit being a fucking troll.  We Conservatives are having a big boy discussion here.  We are hashing out our differences and seeing what kind of policies we come up with.  We are in the tavern that spawned the Boston Tea Party.

Yes, we are vulgar and occasionally hurt each others' feelings.  But at the end of the day we are all dedicated to Conservative and Libertarian principles.  We don't want to join the Church of the Democrat Party.

53 As I think I've mentioned, I disagree with Gabe and most of the rest of the queer community about this, mainly because I don't believe that the state should be in the business of enforcing marriage other than on a contractual basis.  Frankly, this is an issue that is not central to me in my queerness.  I don't need the state to tell me that my relationship is valid, be it with a man or a woman.  But I do think that basic common decency should be shown.  Whatever you think about gay marriage, whatever you think about homosexuality or bisexuality, hell, whatever you think about Gabe, he is a member of this here Moron horde and he's asking for some restraint.  I think that is warranted. 

54

First off,

I voted for Prop 8, but anyone who lacks compassion for Gabe is unconscionable.  This issue is one that has a lot of dimensions to it, but the inability to kind one to another is just a jerk.  Gabe, I'm sorry for you that it had to happen, although for our state I am glad that it did.

But gosh, I sure hope some of you are Mobys cause there is NO reason to be a complete jerk about it.

55 That prop 8 is a signature victory for republicans tells you all you need to know about your party.

Exactly.  Because white people voted to oppose it, blacks and latinos overwhelmingly supported it.  I wonder what party those latinos and blacks belong to.

Oh wait.  That doesn't fit teh narrative. Well, whatever, there's no denying that Republicans deserve the blame.

Qwinn

56 "except any legal standing you had.  which, y'know, might warrant a big "fuck you" from a true love never dies standpoint, but does have certain financial implications."

While I am not unaware of the legal and financial ramifications (although I thought most states by now recognized same-sex civil unions)...

...but I wouldn't be "hurting" because such a thing happened because my relationship is not based on governmental approval.

57

While I do have some (not much, but some) sympothy for those affected by this ban, I would have voted for it in defiance of the California courts.

58 Gabriel,

Your bravery and honesty for coming out is striking (I don't remember you mentioning your partner or orientation before), especially at this time. I hope that you find peace and solace. I hope it helps to remember that you still have what you had before -- the love of another person, and though to your eyes it's second best, you are certainly savvy enough to preserve your legal rights as a couple with regard to property, medical care, and so on. You've lost something but not the critical thing.

I'm also sorry for some of the comments you've already gotten and I'm sure more to come. One would think after the demonization we've suffered through this election cycle some of us could be a little more fucking civil to one of our own? Are we a big tent or not?

59 Sorry, but I am not going to pretend that marriage is anything but that which is between a man and a woman. Marriage between a man and a woman is the best way to raise healthy happy children. The government has an interest in promoting it. Marriage has been around for a lonnnnnngggg time. I look how single parenthood has turned out and all the out of wedlocked babies. Not good. It has increased poverty among children and fatherless children, especially boys, are angry and are the root of the gang problems.

60 NJconservative:

"But when two men want to get married, the government has to step in and say no?"

Um.  This is so totally backwards.  Marriage is an affirmation by the State.  Denying marriage is the government choosing -not- to endorse something.  The State cannot "step in" and tell -itself- not to endorse a marriage.

Conservatives believe the State should only intrude on matters when there is an overwhelming societal interest.  In heterosexual marriage, that interest is in providing the best platform for the raising of children.  This is not a factor in homosexual marriage, therefore, the State has no reason to endorse it or otherwise get involved.

It's not that difficult.  Please stop trying to turn the libertarian argument on its head.  They want to get married, go ahead, find a Church that'll call it that. No one outside of that church would stop it.  What's being denied is State sanction, and that is not the same as the State stepping in and denying -another- entity's sanction.

Qwinn

61 Give me a break. I and others would have been depressed if it had been defeated. However, none of us would be here demanding a moment of silence and that people feel sorry for us or that those who disagree shut up.

62 The only reason government recognizes any marriage is to regulate the transference of land and title to biological children of the current spouse.

History is rife with examples of the first born bastard son born to the mistress not getting a damn thing while the second born son born of the wife is the first in line for the throne.

Since homosexual unions can not create biological offspring, there is no reason for Government to recognize such unions as a marriage.

Furthermore, by forcing me to accept a homosexual union as a marriage infringes on my right to free expression of religion, which teaches that homosexual conduct is sinful.

I'm glad Prop 8 looks like it's passing, and I'm not going to apologize for feeling that way.

63 #35--Mr Happy

"Rights" do not encompass the right to fundamentally re-define a well established societal institution

Using that rationale we should never have freed the slaves, or once we made that mistake we should never have fought for equal rights for them.

64

Gabriel, you don't have a government label that you also never had prior to this summer, and that your fellow citizens emphatically stated 2-years ago should not apply to you.

If I understand correctly, you still have the same civil union rights, and those are the same as a married couple with the exception of the label.  If I do not understand correctly, then I think, that the civil union laws need to be improved.

I'm sorry you are hurting, but I am not sorry Prop 8 passed.

65 Gabe, you can't seriously expect most folks to care that you gambled with your emotional health.  As a lawyer, you are not naive enough to think that the CA Sup Ct would get away with this.

So you got "married," knowing full well that it might get voided. 

Boo hoo.

Don't gamble and then cry about your losses.  See: BAILOUT.

66

Oh and Gabriel, gay you may be, and I generally don't care much for them. But your opposition to socialism makes you more my brother than the straightest straight little bitch of a man who voted for Obama.

67 Nice strawman, NJCon.

A bit overstuffed, but still an impressive figure.

Now try explaining how the "right" to abortion has proven to be such a success.

68 as far as im concerned,marriage is just a sham to make lawyers rich,and give the state more money.(not saying i wont be a total moron and do that someday...)  seriously,is there much difference between a civil union,and marriage,other than the label?

69 furthermore, Prop 8 granted marriage equivalent civ unions. 

Cry me a river.

70 Herr Morgenholz,

If you're going to quote what I wrote then why don't you address my point?

It's called logic.  Try to deal with that.

71

Nobody is saying deviants can't do what they want behind closed doors. Marriage has a meaning, I guess like gay once had a meaning before the deviants got hold of it,  like what the deviants want to do with people's children. Get hold of them and mangle them like the language.  Like J Wright says---- ridin' dirty.

 

72 your opposition to socialism makes you more my brother than the straightest straight little bitch of a man who voted for Obama.

Word.

73 Qwinn,

So the function of state sanctioned marriage is to create a stable platform for raising children? So barren women should never be allowed to marry? So women after menopause should never be allowed to marry? So sterile men should never be allowed to marry?

Come on, that argument has been discredited. Give gays all of the rights and privilages afforded to heterosexuals in marriage and I will be happy. Even better, give back the word "marriage" to religion, and figure out another word to describe a contract between two adult people.

74

When scientists find the "elusive" gay gene, I may reconsider my support on 8. I haven't heard of any that believe it exists but they can't say so publicly because they'll get ostracized.

I've always felt that it was more of something that causes a person to be gay (NTTAWWT) in their early development. The gay men I've known didn't have a strong (or any) father figure in their life. The gay women didn't have a strong mother figure.  How else can you explain why so many men who were raped by priests or other male authority figures just happen to be gay when they grow up?

To be clear, I don't believe that is a choice they make.  I really believe they have no control over their orientation.

But being born gay - sorry, you won't convince me of that.

75 "Furthermore, by forcing me to accept a homosexual union as a marriage infringes on my right to free expression of religion, which teaches that homosexual conduct is sinful."

Look, that is totally irrational.

If you're arguing homosexuality is immoral or even evil and worthy of eternal punishment, you may have a point at least from a religious point of view. That's what the good book says according to many interpretations.

But you are arguing that any practice that is against your religion infringes on your right to practice your religion.

That's retarded.

According to that line of reasoning, if I may call it that, all laws must be in accordance with your faith. Or they infringe on your religious rights.

You're arguing a theological position, not a constitutional one. On "rights" ground, your position is indefensible.

76 Any conversation about the political aspect of this proposition passing that ignores the fact that it passed almost entirely due to overwhelming DEMOCRAT opposition from blacks and latinos is a sham.

But -everyone- seems determined to ignore that.  One wonders why that is.

Qwinn

77 Moronizer--

Thank you for your kind words. But equating abortion with gay marriage makes you a moron, and not in the good sense of Ace of Spades.

78 Gabe:  I am sorry you are hurting on the prop 8 loss today.  Seriously... I don't know if you are gay or what, and I'm not without compassion for gays and the situation they find themselves in.  Let agree on a couple things.  (1) Anyone who hates gays is a piece of shit.  (2) Being in favor of prop 8 is not equal to hating gays.  Let's be honest about this: there are plenty of rational arguments in favor of 8.  The only side that didn't have much of a rational argument was the anti-8 side ("unfair" was about it). 
That said--I'm not trying to gloat.  It's just that I'm hurting a little bit too today after being called a homophobe and gay-hater for the last couple months.

79 But could we have a moment of silence for those poor fools who were happily married or engaged yesterday and today are finding out that they don't have squat?

No. Fuck them.

And they were never married in the first place. A marriage is between one man and one man.

And for fucking fuck's sake, STOP POSTING GABE. You're pushing the active posts down the main page with this shit.

80

"On Prop 8"

Y'know, I never had a problem with gay marriage. It was the way it went through (the courts instead of the legislature) I had a problem with.

81 Hmmm.

*shrug* I used to be in favor of gay marriage, after all what makes them so special that they can't suffer through bad marriages and rancorous divorces like the rest of us, but after gay activists went to the courts instead of the people to get their agenda pass.  No way.

82 I am gay.  There.  I said it and I feel better.

I'm also married and have three children.  I love my wife.  I love my kids.  I live a happy,  gay life.  I really love this gay lifestyle.  It's great!

I also have no interest in having sex with a man.  That is gay.  I am gay.  But no thanks to the sex with a man thing.

Once again,  I am gay.

83 The point here is that democracy worked. The fact that you didn't like the way it went doesn't concern me much if at all.

It's the same reason Obama will be my president. It didn't go the way I hoped but that's the process we have.

And the process is more important than who wins.

84 Both are court created "rights." 

Boo fucking hoo.

"Keeping the WORD marriage away from us is JUST LIKE slavery!"

WAAHHH.

Fucktard.

85 Your bravery and honesty for coming out...

Honesty, yes, but is it really brave to "come out" under a pseudonym? Can you come out anonymously?

I don't mean that as a put-down, because I respect what he did, but I think bravery is overstating it.

86

Gabe,

I feel for you, man.  I don't care who someone loves, and neither should the government.  I'm a serious right-winger, but this is the one issue that I don't agree with. 

I just want to know how the most liberal president in America just got elected, but somehow his proposition is going to pass. 

87 Please, if Prop 8 had been defeated there would be nothing but wailing and the gnashing of teeth about how this was the ultimate downfall of western civilization. 

I don't know or care if Gabe is straight, gay, bi, or nueter.  Frankly I don't give a shit, but he deserves the same rights and legal protections as anyone else.  That includes entering a marriage contract. 

Personally I would have preferred being able to buy gays off with civil unions just to keep the "it's for the children" crowd quiet, but that ship has sailed.  All thats being proved now is that you are so insecure in your ability to raise your kids that you need the governemnt to protect you from outside influences.

88 I can't be gay, I can't afford the clothes.  But as a capitalist I respect those who can.

89

#73

There is a word for 2 adult homosexuals FILTH

90 So the function of state sanctioned marriage is to create a stable platform for raising children? So barren women should never be allowed to marry? So women after menopause should never be allowed to marry? So sterile men should never be allowed to marry?

Throughout history and time, infertility (other than that caused by age) has been considered valid grounds for an instant, absolute annulment.

Come on, that argument has been discredited.

Oh.  Well, I disagree with you, therefore your argument has been discredited also.  See how easy that is?  Because you offered up nothing more than disagreement to declare my argument "discredited".

Give gays all of the rights and privilages afforded to heterosexuals in marriage and I will be happy.

And I won't.  What, our social security system is so healthy that it can afford another batch of transfer of entitlements?  And for what?

It's funny that you completely avoided the point of the argument, though - which is that it is ludicrous to claim that the State "stepping in and saying no" to it's own positive endorsement, sanction, and extension of benefits is a statist position.

Qwinn

91 I left that item on the ballot blank, because I couldn't decide in the end which was more important: the right of adults to freely make contracts (which is what marriage is -- it's not an unalienable right) or the principle of judicial restraint; the court was way out of line with this decision. Since I couldn't make up my mind, I did "an Obama" and voted "present."

92 The idea of "gay marriage" is as preposterous as the idea of "liquid wood"; the modifier so changes the noun as to render its meaning incomprehensible.  And that's the problem.  When courts, by little more than fiat, grant "rights" that are preposterous, people get emotionally invested in them.  When common sense is restored, people get hurt.

And Dang, you didn't use logic, you used hatred.  You sought to kick Gabriel in the face when he was down.  You're a fuckhead.

93 For me, it's not that I have no have compassion for Gabe...

...it's that I have a bit of a problem with the over-dramatic theatrics about "hurting."

No, I don't deny that Gabe and others are hurting, it's just that it's a drama-queen reaction to something that doesn't really affect their relationships on any level that really matters.

And considering the REASON for Prop 8 (fixing judicial activism), the opponents should have seen this coming (actually, the opponents should have pushed for legislative relief instead of judicial).

Lastly, considering the virulence and violence that Prop 8 opponents have shown, I have no sympathy for their feelings this morning.

Maybe if they had been a little nicer they might have gotten more votes.

You reap what you sow and sometimes harvest time is a bear.

94 Nope.

No friends, gabe.

95 This shows even in Cali, with Obama winning the White House and DEM increase in COngress, some conservative values still prevail. This is in the end why the GOP lost, they drifted away from their core values.

I expect within 2 years we will see a leaner and meaner GOP ready for the midterms.

96 I'll add, "Don't cry." That isn't manly at all, nor even conservative womanly, not over a vote.

The manly thing to do is stomp, curse, and break things!

97 Why should I feel sorry for them? Marriage is a construct of society. That's why we have 'em. To make society stronger. That a man and a woman use it to symbolize and quantify their love is incidental. That's between them.

Guy, guy and girl, girl do nothing to strengthen the bonds of society. But if two people love each other, I say let 'em go at it. Just don't ruin the social contract of the last 5,000 years.

98 If the people of California directly (or through their legislators) want gay marriage, they can have it.  The problem was that, like abortion, a "right" to gay marriage was invented by the courts with no basis in the law and over the previous objections of the people. People don't like having radical social changes shoved down their throats by the courts.

99 Gabe, I feel bad that despite all your brilliance, you can't see the truth in front of you.

100 for those "marriage isn't a right"rs out there.  You may be right about that, but I am sure that I am right when I say the equal protection under the law is a right.  as long as their are laws regrading marriage then all Americans have a right for those laws equally applied to them, regardless of race, or gender.

101

Hi Gabriel,

I flew here to SF over the weekend so I could watch the victory party in the Castro which never materialized last night.  I walked thru the district yesterday and the mood was high before the results were known.  Today, when I go to Orphan Andy's for lunch, I seriously doubt that happiness will be in order.  Yes, Obama won.  That's great for some but not me.  Prop 8 appears to have passed.  That one hurts me. 

Once again, this country disappoints me more than can be stated.  They elected an idiot to the highest office in this country while continuing to deny you and I the rights of the masses. 

It's truly a sad day.

Kinggeek

102

Prop 8 is what I imagined by having things rammed down our throats by people like Gavin Newsom and the Mass SJC. Gay marriage should have been done better and in steps. First go for civil unions and make sure all the rights are the same, then as people become accustomed to it, then go for Gay marriage. People don't mind change, but on some items, too much of a change without the will of the people can backfire, like it just did.

What is interesting, is that people that supported Obama voted against it too. The rule of law is the rule of law, and some people don't like it when people like Newsome disregard that. Was it a vote against Gay marriage or a vote agaisnt people thwarting the rule of law?

 

103

GM, sorry dude.

104 Lastly, considering the virulence and violence that Prop 8 opponents have shown, I have no sympathy for their feelings this morning.

Gays have been murdered by heterosexuals, beaten, bullied, throughout history. Put in prison.

But you aren't responsible for that.

I'm sure Gabriel hasn't been violent over this, despite my preference for him doing some old-fashioned stomping around the house as opposed to writing posts about hurting.

105

What exactly happens to all the marriges that did occur? Are they voided? I'm curious and I guess I'm not looking in the right places to find the answers.

And I want to emphasize part of what Gringo said Gabe, 'your opposition to socialism makes you more my brother than the straightest straight little bitch of a man who voted for Obama.'

The Mobys who leaped on this thread don't seem to get it... we're big boys and girls here. We don't gloat at the pain of others. That's the difference between accepting responisibility for yourself and blaming others for everything wrong in your life. 

106  Even better, give back the word "marriage" to religion, and figure out another word to describe a contract between two adult people.

Posted by: NJconservative at November 05, 2008 11:04 AM (nwJit)

Tell you what.  Go out and get that going.  I'll fully support it.  In fact I've stated that multiple times.  Its the solution that would work.  It eliminates the opposition people have that talk about the sanctity of marriage.  It eliminates a word that has religious connotations from the government.  It is a small government and conservative approach to the issue.

Now go get the Gay Rights activists to support it.  Afterall its what they claim to want.  Equality under the law.  Everyone would be called the same thing under the law.

Oh yeah I'll be laughing in your face while you try this because you'll find that the "conservative bigot" group would be a lot more supportive of this than the "gay agenda" group, since you don't get to attack a traditional religious instution with progressive bullshit.

107 "as long as their are laws regrading marriage then all Americans have a right for those laws equally applied to them, regardless of race, or gender."

All Americans do.  All Americans have a right to marry someone of the opposite gender.  If they choose not to avail themselves of that right, because they would prefer to marry someone of the same gender, that does not mean they were denied a right.

Rights are possessed by individuals, not pairs or groups.  The mindset that feels otherwise is generally known as "collectivist".  It's not all that popular around here.

Qwinn

108 Gabe,

You have the rotten luck of being born a little early, my generation might be drinking deep from the Obama kool-aid but I'm not. Gay marriage is only a matter of time, because as a whole each generation gives less of a damn about it.

I spent a lot of time trying to find my political identity, and the more I've learned and studied the more I conclude that culture will change with or without someones permission.

I can see no reason to deny gay marriage, as NJ pointed out so very keenly the argument that the state should sanction a union only if it's meant to produce children has been disproved.

Hold the faith man, your not alone.

109 Herr Morgenholz,

Still avoiding my point?  And name calling?  Tisk tisk.

I made a point that if a Mormon wants to marry several women,  he may not. ( No hate there. )
If a a woman wants to marry an animal,  she may not.  ( No hate there. )
If a brother and sister want to marry,  they may not.  ( No hate there. )
The state has established several areas that are excluded from the institution of marriage.

Facts.  Logic.  True.

110 Fact is, the homosexual lobby overreached itself and is suffering the backlash.

They were making slow but steady inroads, but then got greedy and went for everything.

The 'high tide' for homosexual lobby was the mayor of San Fran (and executive position) declaring that HE would determine what was correct legislatively and judicially when he defied the 'ban.'

111 Qwinn,

I disagree with the state when it chooses who gets that positive endorsement. Either we all have access, or none should have access.

And your argument that "throughout history and time" infertility has been grounds for annulment doesn't mean anything in modern America. I really don't care that the various churches, directly, and through their control of the state, were allowed to create law. Besides, the state isn't rushing around telling infertile folks that their marriages are not valid.

112 I firmly believe that Christians have the right to denounce homosexuality as sinful provided they respect others' right to practice it under the constitution. Whether it should be recognized as a marriage when that institution has always been between a man and a woman (or in some cases like often in the Bible, between a man and more than one woman) is another question.

If one uses either the Judeo-Christian tradition or "the way it's always been" generally (around the world), there's a far stronger case for polygamy than there is for gay marriage.

Even though you support gay marriage, Gabriel, and have other arguments for it, you must acknowledge that much is true.

113 #88 -- Apotheosis

You owe me a keyboard.

114 "Gays have been murdered by heterosexuals, beaten, bullied, throughout history. Put in prison.

But you aren't responsible for that.

I'm sure Gabriel hasn't been violent over this, despite my preference for him doing some old-fashioned stomping around the house as opposed to writing posts about hurting."

So past crimes against homosexuals relieves current homosexuals from acting properly and legally?

Sorry, I'm not a believer in moral relativism.

115

Hi Gabriel!  That took guts and I'm proud of you for your courage. 

However, I'm really glad that proposition 8 passed.  Lack of a marriage is a sad thing, but there are many sad things in life.  I can't make it stop hurting with any words of mine or anybody else's. 

I am a believing and obedient Catholic, but I hope you won't believe I'm a "hater" any more than I believe you are a (insert your favorite contemptible epithet here).  Like most of us, you have been deceived into believing your sins are not bugs, they're features!  I know I have my sins and you have yours.  Yours are not my business and mine aren't yours.  But that's actually not my reason for approving of Prop 8.

Human culture, for the most part, is like it is because over ten or twenty or thirty thousand years, it has developed this way because this works the best - not because this works well.  Patriarchal society is full of horrible problems.  Wife abuse, child abuse, etc.  What do we get when we mess with the power structure of the family to eliminate this problem?  Look at our young people.  You're a conservative Gabriel, and you know that the more we try, in the best of faith, to "fix" society, the more we screw it up.  Legislation of the societal norm of marriage into something it isn't will have unintended consequences galore.  There have been cultures without marriage and there must have been cultures with homosexual marriage, but they did not flourish or even survive.  The best I can remember is the institutional homoeroticism of classical Greece and Sparta, neither of which passed along that particular part of their culture into the world in general.  I'm just saying that legislating what marriage is is a VERY unwise thing. 

Blessings to you and your family.  You will survive the hurt if you love and support each other.

Kathy

 

116 There would not be as many people hurting if the gay marriage issue was handled within the law in the first place.  Liberals pushed it through with the complicity of a liberal mayor and defied both the will of the people and the law.  This result may be unfortunate but it was a known possibility at the time these marriages were happening.

117 This ... this doesn't mean we have to stop referring to assholes as "suckers of cock," does it?

I keed, I keed.

But seriously, this is why I've been saying for so long that the true conservative solution is to GET THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT OUT OF THE MARRIAGE BUSINESS. The only reason it gets to make that call is so that it can collect marriage license fees and control your tax rates. (And worse, the real reason the government originally got involved in marriage 150 years ago was to stop blacks from marrying whites.)

The solution? Repeal all marriage laws. The only criteria for being married should be finding some outfit (church, Rotary Club ladies' auxiliary, whatever) willing to recognize your bond with another person, like it was before the Civil War.

End of problem.

118 #106 -- Buzzion

No kidding! Of course the gay rights movement wouldn't support it. I am cognizant of their broader agenda. That doesn't mean that it's a bad idea. In fact, pissing of the gay rights movement has great amusement value.

119 Marriage is what it has traditionally been.  Having something else is something else, even if one uses the muscle of the state to include it in a "reformulation."  You have what you have.

That said, I feel bad that you're hurting, Gabe, and I do wish there were a painless way of addressing the issue.  I'll stop there out of respect for bruised feelings.  Another day.

120 I've still yet to hear from any of you pro-homo marriage folks why people who gambled with their emotions deserve any sympathy when they lose that bet.

Gay marriage is very similar to BO getting elected in that it will cause people to drop out from participation in a society they see as fundamentally immoral.  And the reason that that's a concern is that (1) those people are 70%+ of the population; and (2) they are the ones having kids to perpetuate that society.

Fuck this country.  I'm glad we elected a black pres, but I wish it was Harold Ford or Colin Powell if we wanted a liberal.  If this shit keeps up, including expanding partial birth abortions and infanticide, I'm just gonna homeschool my kids and tell them to avoid any government service of any kind.

121 Truly sorry,Gabe. I voted against prop 8,as did everyone I know (and i live in a very conservative community).

122 NJconservative:

The reason infertile folks can get married is because the rules for marriage are kept fairly simple for several reasons.  The most obvious is that forcing every couple to take a fertility test (which was only recently even possible) before marriage would be a massive intrusion of privacy by the State.  Can you possibly deny this?  Is there any rational compelling State interest served by instituting such a test in order to prevent the 2-3% of total marriages that might fail to meet this test, other than being forced to be dicks to those people who suffer from a -medical- disability so that you can't use it as an argument to justify gay marrige?

Adding homosexuals to the rolls - an entire section who are -by nature- unable to procreate with one another - is an entirely different matter.  No intrusive test is required to determine fertility.  There is no rational basis to extend those benefits to people who can't have children.

Honestly, I have to say, I have exceedingly little respect for those who claim that marriage has nothing to do with children, and spout "That's been discredited".  It's disingenous as fuck.  You -know- that's what the institution is all about.  That's -always- what it's all been about.  It is fucking deranged to claim marriage has been about anything else - either that, or a wilful ignorance of history.  Sorry if this sounds insulting, but your easy "That's been discredited" dismissal is just as insulting to the intelligence.  You're in Orwell land with that kind of argumentation.  OF COURSE marriage is and always has been about the children.  Who are you seriously trying to kid?

Qwinn

123 Oh, nice to see the flawed "Equal Protection Argument".

Explain this: If the law is that any person, if not already married, can get married to any other person of the opposite gender - how is that not equal protection under the law?

Any gay man can still marry a woman just like any straight man can marry a woman.

Just because a gay man wouldn't want to marry a woman does NOT mean that gay marriage bans violate the equal protection clause.

124 And enough with this "Gabe is so brave!" shit. No offense, but Gabe isn't brave at all. So he told us that he's gay. Who gives a shit. Brave has connotations of risk and personal danger. I doubt that Gabe has risked anything. This is 2009!

125 #63 NJconservative.  Slavery was forced on people against their will, with imprisonment.  No one forces anyone into being Gay.  It's voluntary, slavery was not. duh.

126 .

Raj the true conservative solution is to GET THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT OUT OF THE MARRIAGE BUSINESS.

Complete bullshit, or conversely you have no conception of what conservative means.

Marriage is the core institution of society.  Tinkering with that by either unmooring it from government control or fiddling around with who gets married are recipes for disaster.  And restructuring a core societal institution is in NO way "conservative" (meaning respecting tradition and not making sudden societal experiments)

127 So past crimes against homosexuals relieves current homosexuals from acting properly and legally?

Sorry, I'm not a believer in moral relativism.

No and that's a false interpretation of what I said. Intentionally or accidentally?

No matter. I wrote:

Gays have been murdered by heterosexuals, beaten, bullied, throughout history. Put in prison.

But you aren't responsible for that.

I'm sure Gabriel hasn't been violent over this, despite my preference for him doing some old-fashioned stomping around the house as opposed to writing posts about hurting.

Nothing I wrote says or even implies that I think homosexuals don't have to obey the law. NOTHING.

It isn't an argument for moral relativism at all. What you wrote was a non-sequitur. It betrays a lack of basic comprehension.

128 People are hurting today. And I'm one of them.

Blame the courts, not the people...it was judicial tyranny which raised the false hopes of Gays, and it is they who should receive their, and your, scorn.

129 And enough with this "Gabe is so brave!" shit. No offense, but Gabe isn't brave at all. So he told us that he's gay. Who gives a shit. Brave has connotations of risk and personal danger.

Gabe might not have "risked" anything in the real world by revealing this, but he's a pretty well known and respected AoS moron and he definitely risked standing in this community.  Which, for all you know, he might actually consider at least mildly important.

Just because he doesn't have people lining up to drag his ass down the road and tie his body to a fence doesn't mean it didn't take some huevos to talk about his tendencies in this setting, ok?

130

Gabe:  I'm sorry, but as a conservative you should still welcome the result of Prop. 8.  This is for the same reason that even pro-abortion conservatives (and liberals, for that matter) should champion the repeal of Roe v. Wade.  The outcome isn't as important as the fact that the rules be observed.  Gay marriage will come about legitimately when the people positively vote for it.  Using the courts to bypass the political system ends up destroying everything we believe in. 

What we've seen from too many liberals, as documented on this site year after year, is a mentality that says winning is everything.  It isn't.  I hope you gain enough perspective on this after a bit of time so that you again recognize this.  After that, feel free to work through the system to change things.  However, I have to agree with the thoughts of many here, that the difference between rights and privledges must always be observed. 

131 Wrote this a long time ago (sorry it's a little long)

The union of one man and one woman, as the sole self-sustaining procreative unit, is the basic building block of society. Religious people believe it ordained by God (which is enough reason for many), but leaving that aside, a society that fails to encourage (i.e. show exclusive favoritism—yes favoritism) to that basic unit is doomed.

Marriage and child rearing are hard. It's hard to keep marriages together, and having children in non-agrarian societies is far more a burden that a boon, economically. De-emphasizing the value and exclusivity of marriage---as has been done with quickie, no-fault divorces AND gay marriage---devalues the sacrifice individuals make in coming together as a procreative unit.

Will gay marriage result in men leaving their wives for a life of sausage-smoking? Not likely (unless you're an Episcopal priest who's sick of the wife & daughters). But it will, over time, make marriage less valued in society. (see Scandinavian countries)  When marriage is devalued, procreation suffers (as can be seen from the child-rearing difficulties in the age of divorces). When the procreative function is hampered, society itself is imperiled.

Yes, easy divorce and promiscuity are huge hits against marriage that are already in wide acceptance. But piling worse on top of bad doesn't make the situation any better.

And really, Athens as the "one of the most civilized societies . . . " Sure, it was advanced in culture, but at the time of Socrates it was also decadent and foppish, skittish and indecisive, and generally so torn by internal strife and apathy that it crumbled upon itself. So too Rome under the latter Caesars. While you may equate decadence with civilization, it is in fact the slow-motion destruction of all things civilized. Decadence invariably leads to the fall of societies, and the open flowering of homosexuality in a culture is one of the recurring hallmarks of decadence. That's not a value judgment on homosexuality, that's a historical truth.

The reason gay marriage is such a big deal is that it is a harbinger of societal collapse.

My theory on why this is so is, briefly, that a vast majority of any population is not gay. (at least 95% in the current USA). Many, if not a majority of that 95% find homosexuality distasteful. In a society where gayness is celebrated on the part of a "civilized" elite, you thus have a large segment of the population (perhaps even a large majority) alienated from their own culture. This erodes the civic spirit and displaces the natural feelings of (non-jingoistic) patriotism and love of country that most folks bear for their homeland.

Remove that love of country and people will simply refuse to wage the millions of small battles against chaos that face any culture (from random adults scolding misbehaving children walking down the street [that used to happen a lot, it's virtually non-existent now] to people refusing to help the victim of violent crime when they witness it happening). People simply disconnect from society. Apathy is a culture's deadliest disease.

You ask why. The best answer is that civilization might very well actually depend on it.

Then again, maybe not. But who wants to take that chance if you can see it coming?

132

Honesty, yes, but is it really brave to "come out" under a pseudonym? Can you come out anonymously?

I don't mean that as a put-down, because I respect what he did, but I think bravery is overstating it.

Gabriel is one of the most prolific posters here, maybe #2 behind the Hobostrangler-in-Chief, and I've found his posts generally well-reasoned and insightful.

But now every time he posts, there'll be some percentage thinking/writing "what's the gay angle on this?", some number of mobies insulting him for not going all Excitable Andy and leaving the party, and some number being crude or cold. I'm sure that he knew that before he came out of the closet here but chose to post anyway.

133 I wish Prop 8 hadn't passed.  I would have voted against it myself.  Gay marriage is only an issue to me insofar as it's mandated on a federal level by the SCOTUS (a federalism issue), and every state has the right to make its own decisions. 

I feel for you, Gabriel.

Also: Bart's a pissant.  But we knew that already.

134 Unfortunately, I think prop 8 was the only solution left.

Gay marriage is fine, as long as it passes by way of the people, not the courts. The proper route requires acceptance of reasonable public behavior and respect for the overwhelming heterosexual majority by the gay zeitgeist.

So this is an important slap to judicial activism.

I am sorry it cuts so close to home for many people.

135 I've still yet to hear from any of you pro-homo marriage folks why people who gambled with their emotions deserve any sympathy when they lose that bet.

Moronizer, because all matters of the heart involve a certain gambling of emotions and normal people feel a certain amount sympathy toward those whose hearts are hurting.

At least if those people are basically decent and I think Gabriel is. If someone believes having a homosexual relationship makes someone immoral, THEN I can see why they would have no sympathy.

I think that really is the difference.

Put it this way. Imagine some teenage girl got her heart broken somehow. I know it's not going to ruin her life and I'd urge her to buck up as quickly as possible, but surely as someone who's felt those emotions myself, I'd have some sympathy even if only a little.

It's called empathy and you don't have to go out of your way to have some. It's a normal human trait. It's part of how we understand things, by relating it to ourselves. And I'm not a pussy about it. I think Gabe should buck up.

But I can empathize.

136 I was going to leave prop 8 blank until they went after Mormons, who I've always found to be the nicest people. How is polygamy perverted and gay marriage not? If they wanted "Equality For All" then they should also be pushing polygamy, child brides, and sex slaves-as-brides, all proudly sponsored by NAMBLA.

137

But could we have a moment of silence for those poor fools who were happily married or engaged yesterday and today are finding out that they don't have squat?

You don't need state sanction to bless your relationship. Marriage is a personal/religious issue. Did you really want to pay that marriage license fee so bad?

138

Why would anyone give two shits what the state thinks of their personal relationships?  I'm hetero and I don't.  The only reason I am married is because that is what is expected.  So take solace in the fact that there are more people out there who are forced into marriages, the terms of which they do not know and which change at every election, than there are people who want the government's blessing but can't get it.

Marriage is nothng more than a contract.  Better if two people set the conditions of the contract than if the state writes one contract for evey union and changes the terms retroactively at every turn.  I can only dream of personal contracts being the norm for heterosexuals.  Gays have a chance to get this shit right.

Gabe, you are a lawyer.  You should know better.  Buck up buddy and enjoy our new status as a banana republic along with the rest of us.  Look, I even have my grass skirt on....

139 It isn't an argument for moral relativism at all. What you wrote was a non-sequitur. It betrays a lack of basic comprehension.

No, my reply was, sans the opportunity to decipher tone, was a valid response to your post which I construed as being accepting of the 'virulence and violence'.

In fact, even WITH your second response, I have no idea why you would bring that up as a rejoinder to my point.

Prior violence has (or SHOULD HAVE HAD) nothing to do with how the opponents to Prop 8 acted.

Instead of reaching out to convince people, they smacked their opponents around - which simply caused the supporters to double down.

There lack of sympathy/empathy toward their opponents causes me to have no sympathy/empathy toward them this morning.

140 But now every time he posts, there'll be some percentage thinking/writing "what's the gay angle on this? Yes, but that isn't a problem.

Generally a person's name gives away their sex and we usually assume a person is heterosexual. There are few gender-free human interactions and we always assume there's a male or a female angle there somewhere. We are, after all, male or female.

If people know Gabriel's sexual orientation and take that into consideration, I think that just makes sense. It does matter at times.

141 My sincere sympathies, Gabriel. I was unhappy with the means by which same-sex marriage came about in California, not because I disagreed with the outcome but because it was too important a precedent to build on such a fragile base. Something like Prop 8 was pretty much inevitable right now. It's not a Democrat vs. Republican thing, it's more of a generational thing. It'll happen, probably not too long from now, but if you want to avoid a repeat of this situation it has to happen the right way.

I'm tired of arguing about civil unions vs marriage. The two look a lot alike to me, and I just don't care enough to fight about it, I guess. Frankly, I think that same-sex marriage (and adoption even more so) would be a politically moderating influence on gays in general. And as a moderate conservative I'm fully in favor of that.

142

It doesn’t matter that the “intuitive” for renewable fuels scam was defeated; the Dems in the CA legislator will push it anyway.

 

Besides that, we are going to have the biggest scam in the history of the country coming with the AGW fraud.

143

there is no difference between being gay or straight.

you meet a person, you fall in love, and you want to spend your life with them.

Lets see if all the super Hetero Yes on 8 supporters are happy when the government starts taking away some more of their common rights. hahahahaha, you lose in the end you conservitive old, white, church humping,  Bush Loving, McCain Supporting, geritol, about to die idiots...

144

And they were never married in the first place. A marriage is between one man and one man.

Posted by: Bart at November 05, 2008 11:08 AM (t9PoL)

Errrrr, Bart?

145 How is polygamy perverted and gay marriage not?

Because only a truly warped man wants to deal with more than one woman for any longer than a single torrid, sticky night at a time.

146 Gabe might not have "risked" anything in the real world by revealing this, but he's a pretty well known and respected AoS moron and he definitely risked standing in this community. Which, for all you know, he might actually consider at least mildly important. I'm sorry, but risking the mildly important standing in an online community you participate in anonymously isn't the standard for bravery.

See McCain. See the army vet that walked between the two Black Panthers and then gave an interview to Fox News. See Nelson Mandela while in prison, or even a teenager who supports his pregnant girlfriend and says, "Hell no, I don't want you to get an abortion! We'll make it somehow, baby, and I'll support you every step of the way. I want to be there when you tell your dad, but don't worry, I can run fast."

That's brave.

147 Followup to #145: I mean for fuck's sake, how many bathrooms do you want to build, dude?

148 In Oregon, all the gays that got "married" found their marriages voided.

It's not like this was an unfathomable result.  And it's completely different from teh normal risks of relationships.  These gays aren't "no longer married"

if anything they are simply "no longer married in the eyes of the STATE"

Boo fucking hoo.

And sociopathy limits my ability to empathize. 

I do generally feel for the gays who married before Prop 8 was even a thought, but once it started circulating, the gays who got "married" were playing Russian roulette with their emotions

Gabe is certainly sophisticated enough to realize the risks better than most.

Again, wah-wah-wah

149 Homosexuality is wrong, just like cheating on your spouse is wrong, and lying is wrong, and stealing is wrong.   Whether or not people want to admit it or like it,  moral values come from The Creator, the one true God of the bible.   That's where this country gets it sense of right and wrong.  Murdering, stealing, etc. are illegal because they are immoral, just like homosexuality is immoral and it should not be condoned by allowing gay marriage.   California voters did the right thing.  To those gays who are hurting, stop your immoral behavior and maybe you'll feel better.   My intent is not to pick on Gabriel, everyone on this blog, myself included, needs to stop sinning.  We are all guilty.

150 COCK! COCK! Damn, I want COCK! This gay marriage thread has made me hot for COCK! COCK! Anybody got any COCK? Fuck, I gotta have COCK! It's been sooooo long since I've had COCK! I don't want marriage, I just want COCK!

151

"Gabriel is one of the most prolific posters here, maybe #2 behind the Hobostrangler-in-Chief, and I've found his posts generally well-reasoned and insightful...But now every time he posts, there'll be some percentage thinking/writing "what's the gay angle on this."

Gabe could have short circuited that tendency by a lot had he admitted that Prop 8 was correctly decided, no matter how it impacted himself personally.  We're not the guys who speak of leaving the country when the fellow we don't like becomes President.  When we lose, we accept it and strive to win tomorrow, while remaining focused on winning the right way.   Prop 8 was entirely a correction of judicial overstepping, and thus a win for the larger things we believe in.  The issue at hand is always smaller than such larger concerns, and Gabe hasn't signalled his recognition of this.  I think after a bit of time to get over his disapointment, he will.  And that will be the difference between him and Andrew Sullivan, who would cut down every law in the land to get the devil, or at least gay marriage.

152 How is polygamy perverted and gay marriage not?

 Duh, like the vaginas, man.

Ewww.

153 i find it hard to believe that the population was conservative enough to pass 8, but not 4, and that those same idiots that passed 8 also voted for Obanal enough for him to carry the state. WTF were they thinking?

Gabe, you have my sympathy, and i too believe that the government has no business being in the marriage business.  unfortunately, since 8 is a state constitutional amendment, it'll take another amendment or a federal court to overrule it.

154 Moronizer, re: post 131:

Bravo.  That should be required reading in schools.  I completely agree.

Qwinn

155 Plus, any of these homos can go down to the Unitarian church and get married today.  They just won't get a government piece of paper

Oh, the huge manatee

156 In fact, even WITH your second response, I have no idea why you would bring that up as a rejoinder to my point.

It's simple. You brought up the fact that some Prop 8 opponents had committed violence as a justification for you not feeling sympathy for people disappointed by its passage. You could have just said Gabriel doesn't deserve sympathy because he's flat-out wrong and left it at that, but instead you brought up others' violence as your reason for not giving Gabriel any sympathy.

Therefore I brought up the fact that many people have committed violence against homosexuals for thousands of years and pointed out that you aren't responsible for that. What I'm implying is that it would be stupid to use the fact that other "Religious Zealots" have been violent not to have sympathy for you if there otherwise would be a reason to be.

If you came in here and said, "Hey, I just found out I have cancer," I'd say, "Shit. Be strong. Treatments are getting better these days and I've known lots more people to survive. What kind is it?"

Not, "Religious zealots have killed and beaten up gays and denied them their (alleged) 'right' to gay marriage, so I'm not giving you any sympathy."

Make sense now?

No? Good. That just means you're operating out of religious zealotry, not reason.

157 Gabe - do not be too sad. You have more than you seem to realize. It is always your right to love and form a commitment with someone dear to your heart - and having someone like that in your life is a blessing beyond compare.

It is also your right to create a contract with that person wherein you give each other the material/legal rights you wish to share.

You also have AB 205 which includes [near as I can tell] every right afforded legal marriage. And there are many churches who will readily lend spiritual support to your commitment.

On a personal note; I did this research after my daughter accused me of 'hating her kind.' [Yeah - she hangs out with too many radicals... seems to go with the territory around here...] After I filled her in about what I found, she came back and told me of a friend's father, a preacher, who was afraid he could no longer preach his beliefs - legally.

And she understood that was what I was voting against. And she agreed.

[And if that claim - turning disagreement into "hate speech"/illegal speech - was wrong, I couldn't find it in any of my research. So correct me if I missed something, please.]

I am all for folks treating themselves honorably, which includes making sincere loving commitments to others who treat themselves honorably. This just wasn't the time or the way. Too many unintended [by honorable people] consequences. We're still finding our way -- it's not over.

158 Gays still have more rights in California than in France. Last year, after a study of the countries where same-sex marriage is now legal, France rejected same-sex marriage  “to affirm and protect children’s rights and the primacy of those rights over adults’ aspirations.”

Gay adoptions and artificial procreation for gays are against the law in France. In polls, the French public. by a large margin, wanted gay couples to have all the rights of married couples except reproductive rights.

Reproductive rights for gays are aggressively protected in California. In spite of "daddy hunger", etc.

159

Now, c'mon --- who didn't already know Gabe was gay?

He has "come out" on several different occassions in the comments of various threads. I can't Google 'em up for you, but he has repeatedly dropped some huge hints and/or outright said it over the past year.

I thought you morons were paying attention.

160 Gabe, I'd give you your moment of silence if I hadn't watched a bunch of these poor oppressed people run across 4 lanes of traffiic to assault a 70-year-old veteran who had said NOTHING about prop 8 and then call the cops on him and claim he assaulted them.  Fortunately I and others explained what actually happened to the cops and he was turned loose but frankly I'm a tad disenchanted at the moment.

161

If you are a regular reader of  AOS, Gabe coming out is like Clay Aiken coming out.  I'd also have to agree with the joe the plumber troll in that Gabe should really come out as a Democrat that he really is.  An old school, I love America and hate communism democrat, but still a democrat. That I would  respect and would welcome his opposinig viewpoints.  

 

162 While I don't agree with biscuit@149 regarding homosexuality, he's at least making a coherent point.

163 Whether or not the government recognizes my relationship in some special way has absolutely no effect whatsoever on my relationship. I could not possibly care less. If my neighbors got together and declared my (impending) marriage null and void, I'd be like, "okay. Whatever. I have to unload the dishwasher now."

164

Lets see if all the super Hetero Yes on 8 supporters are happy when the government starts taking away some more of their common rights. hahahahaha, you lose in the end you conservitive old, white, church humping,  Bush Loving, McCain Supporting, geritol, about to die idiots...

This is the Mentality of the Anus on display. "Gay Marriage" supporters like you are only too happy to take away our rights to self defense, turn crime into a civil rights issue, rule over us with your judicial tyrants, and censor us in the name of "Fairness". And that is true whether you get legal sanction equivalent to marriage or not. (Legal sanction as domestic partnerships already existed).

Now go fellate Hugo Chavez; you know you want to....

That said, sorry Gabe, but the Rule Of Law must prevail over the Rule Of The Anus imposed by judicial tyrants. The exact legal status of a homosexual relationship must be hashed out in the Legislature.

165 i find it hard to believe that the population was conservative enough to pass 8, but not 4, and that those same idiots that passed 8 also voted for Obanal enough for him to carry the state. WTF were they thinking?

I've pointed out the reason twice now, and people are treating it like a conservative at a Hollywood party - it doesn't exist.  Whites opposed Prop 8.  It passed entirely on the strength of overwhelming black and latino support.  Blacks and latinos hate gay marriage.

No one will touch this fact with a ten foot pole.  The narrative -must- remain that it's all about conservative opposition.  Entire worldviews depend on it.

All those here acting so self-righteous in their disdain for the conservative position on gay marriage as redneck and bigoted would be much better served going into black and latino neighborhoods and calling -them- bigots for supporting prop 8.  But why do that, when it's so much easier to bash those icky social conservatives?

This is an important point, IMO.  Ask almost any gay person (not you, alexthechick) why they scream and loathe conservatives so much but are quiet about Muslims dropping walls on gays, and they'll say "Because I'm here, I can't do anything about what's going on in Iran".  Well, by that logic, there's also much greater bigotry toward gays in black and latino communities than there is in the conservative movement.  But, still, they pick their target as conservatives.  This speaks volumes about their real motivations.

But here we sit, less than 24 hours after the final, last phase of the far left's long march through the institutions, of their total takeover and impending forced collapse of our civilization, and we're still pretending it was ever about anything else.  This is why I have lost all hope.

Qwinn

166 I'm sorry, but risking the mildly important standing in an online community you participate in anonymously isn't the standard for bravery.

See McCain. See the army vet that walked between the two Black Panthers and then gave an interview to Fox News. See Nelson Mandela while in prison, or even a teenager who supports his pregnant girlfriend and says, "Hell no, I don't want you to get an abortion! We'll make it somehow, baby, and I'll support you every step of the way. I want to be there when you tell your dad, but don't worry, I can run fast."

That's brave.

What's the real problem, here?  Are you really that worried about brand dilution of the word "brave," as if acknowledging one as brave mitigates the rest?  Or do you just object to anyone who'd have kind words for one of those evil godless boofers?

Let's face it, guy, if he'd said he was upset about that outcome without saying he was gay, a lot of you who're giving him shit about it now would accuse him of being a fag, and I'm betting more than one or two would also say he just didn't have the balls to admit it.

As for myself, I think Gabe's a stand-up guy.  I also think McCain, et al are stand-up guys.  I don't see how acknowledging a minor act of guts should somehow negate my recognition and appreciation of a major act of guts, like those you mention.  It's a sliding scale, like many other value judgements.  Is giving a hobo a dollar not charitable just because giving a homeless shelter a million dollars is charitable?


(AoS quiz answer: giving the hobo a dollar is not charitable, because you're only doing it to lure him into an alley.)

167 "While I don't agree with biscuit@149 regarding homosexuality, he's at least making a coherent point."

Thank you.

168 for the record, I'm using "homos" the way I use "AoSHQ morons"

affectionately, but trying to avoid touching them

169 I'm sure it's been posted, but really. If Proposition 8 failed, what homosexual would feel sympathy for us normal people?
Zero, that's how many.
I don't know you Gabriel, and I don't hate you because you're a homosexual. I don't hate any homosexuals at all.
But it's time homosexuals realize not everyone buys into their lifestyle.
Tolerance goes only so far.
By the way. I'm hurting now because this Country elected an individual who (in my opinion) is bent on destroying our fine nation. All in the name of pleasing the rest of the world.
Are you going to give me a moment of silence? Are you going to give all of us who feel the way I do a moment of silence?

170 What's the real problem, here? Are you really that worried about brand dilution of the word "brave,"...

No, it's just that I find it hard to wrap my head around the idea of coming out of the closet anonymously.

171 So Gabe, do you pitch or catch?




This is important.

172 You're welcome, biscuit.

173 It's simple. You brought up the fact that some Prop 8 opponents had committed violence as a justification for you not feeling sympathy for people disappointed by its passage. You could have just said Gabriel doesn't deserve sympathy because he's flat-out wrong and left it at that, but instead you brought up others' violence as your reason for not giving Gabriel any sympathy.

So I was entirely correct in my initial response - maybe reading comprehension isn't YOUR strong suite.


Therefore I brought up the fact that many people have committed violence against homosexuals for thousands of years and pointed out that you aren't responsible for that. What I'm implying is that it would be stupid to use the fact that other "Religious Zealots" have been violent not to have sympathy for you if there otherwise would be a reason to be.

Again, sans the ability to read tone, I took your "of course, you're not responsible" to be a bit sarcastic.

If you came in here and said, "Hey, I just found out I have cancer," I'd say, "Shit. Be strong. Treatments are getting better these days and I've known lots more people to survive. What kind is it?"

Sorry, I just don't see how you can connect apples and oranges.

And if you want to defend Gabe from my response since he probably wasn't one of those violent and virulent opponents, please point me to a post of his were he went out of his way to DENOUNCE such tactics.


Not, "Religious zealots have killed and beaten up gays and denied them their (alleged) 'right' to gay marriage, so I'm not giving you any sympathy."

Make sense now?

No? Good. That just means you're operating out of religious zealotry, not reason

Sorry, but you're still engaging in moral relativism.

That you can't see it speaks to your own 'zealotry'.

174 Sorry, I can never agree when a court decides for the people of a state how they should feel about gay marriage. This should have been a decision for the voters from the beginning.

175 1. GM has been out of the closet here on aoshq for a long time. There is nothing "brave" about his implication that he is gay in this post.

2. As far as I know, he's not married.

3. It is over the top to ask for a moment of silence or sympathy for losing a proposition that you personally support.

4. The gay activists in California are assholes. They have harassed the BSA to no end. In SF you can not be involved with the BSA and hold a government job. So, if you are a Cub Scout leader for your kids pack, it's either that or your job. They forced a judge who was involved in the BSA all his life to quit. They tried to get the the ethical cannons of law to bar participation in the BSA. So, you couldn't practise law and have anything to do with the BSA. At least that failed. They did the Calif. Supreme Court to mandate that a judge who has any contact with the BSA declare it and recuse themselves if any of the attorneys or parties are gay. It's bullshit.

176

This is an important point, IMO.  Ask almost any gay person (not you, alexthechick) why they scream and loathe conservatives so much but are quiet about Muslims dropping walls on gays, and they'll say "Because I'm here, I can't do anything about what's going on in Iran".  Well, by that logic, there's also much greater bigotry toward gays in black and latino communities than there is in the conservative movement.  But, still, they pick their target as conservatives.  This speaks volumes about their real motivations.

YOU GOT IT, Qwinn. My problem with so many of the "Lavender" types is that deep down they are really Reds and Pinkoes.

177
And if Prop 8 did not pass, have no doubt that any criticism of gay marriage would open you up to sanctions. That is just the next step. So, if you disagree on religious or any other grounds, you will not be able to express your view with out repercussions.

178 Let's all agree that we don't want the courts changing the meaning of a word just to be politically correct.
Hypothetically, the voters say cats don't need to be on leashes. The court decides it wants cats leashed. Dogs are required to be leashed, therefor the judge decides that since a dog is a four-footed animal that can wear a collar to which a leash can be aattached, and a cat is a four-footed animal that can wear a collar to which a leash can be atttached, the cat is now a dog and the leash law applies.
We all know that a cat isn't a dog, but the court has now declared it to be so.
I ain't buyin' it.

Rob J

179 And, anon hetereo,

Considering all the reasons I've stated for having a problem with Gabe's drama-queen theatrics, I find it interesting that you are so caught up with my statement of lack of sympathy for people who acted nasty and violently.

What is surprisingly lacking in your response, besides missing all the other things I've said, is ANY kind of denouncement of the actions of the Prop-8 opponents.

When you can get around to that and understand that moral equivalence and relativity are not conservative values, THEN we can truly have a conversation.

180

Shit,

If Gabe is gay, does that mean we can't use cocksucker, the AofS main cuss word, without offending him?

Damn, the whole world is going to hell.  Next thing you know Gabe will tell us he is dating "Tom".

Kemp

181 My point about the "not brave" thing is all bloggers take positions on things that lots of people disagree with, and many get angry about. Bloggers and commenters do this.

Most do it anonymously.

Is taking a stance anonymously on a blog the new standard for "bravery"? If so, we're all pretty damn brave.

Now we may or may not be brave, but what we're typing here today under pseudonyms is not, repeat not proof of it.

Or is anonymously admitting ones sexual orientation a special example of bravery? In California? Being gay in California anonymously is brave?

To be fair, Gabriel never claimed the label of bravery for himself.

182 Gabriel,

I'm sorry to hear of the pain this has put on you.  And it gives me additional respect for you knowing that all the while Andrew S was off his gourd about the marriage act and taking it out on every republican he could put crosshairs on, you still remained here with the conservatives keeping a clear head - big tip of the hat to you for that as well as for the clarity and insight found in all of your posts; I've learned alot from reading them and look forward to many more.

Chin up and all that brother.

-Scott

183 If Gabe is gay, does that mean we can't use cocksucker, the AofS main cuss word, without offending him?

Not speaking for Gabe here, but I'm going to reiterate my position on this - the only issue I have with using cocksucker as an insult is that there's nothing wrong with sucking cock.  I'm not offended by the term, I just don't see how it's an insult is all.

I prefer scum sucking ignorant fucktard myself. 

184 I love how you kids raised by Mtv and Oprah relegate homosexuals some saintly martyr status simply because they exhibit a birth defect.  It is no difference than a kid suffering O/C disorder.  Does not mean I want to round them up in camps, but I see no need to elevate and celebrate their condition?

185 What is surprisingly lacking in your response, besides missing all the other things I've said, is ANY kind of denouncement of the actions of the Prop-8 opponents.

It goes without saying that anyone engaging in violence or property damage should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Surely as conservatives it's the one thing we agree on regardless of our religion or sexual orientation. I doubt very much Gabriel Malor would disagree with you.

What are you going to argue next? Every time a Christian conservative says abortion is wrong, they also have to denounce abortion clinic bombers?

Well, duh. Goes without saying.

186 If Gabe is gay, does that mean we can't use cocksucker, the AofS main cuss word, without offending him?

I was wondering about that too.  I mean I know there's a few Breasted-Americans here, but I'm damn if I'll give up my cherished right to make chauvinist jokes about their "proper place" in the household.

187 Not speaking for Gabe here, but I'm going to reiterate my position on this - the only issue I have with using cocksucker as an insult is that there's nothing wrong with sucking cock. I'm not offended by the term, I just don't see how it's an insult is all.

Agreed, Alex. I've always thought the word "cunt" had the most wonderful connotations when thought about deeply so I get your point.

188 I do feel sorry for those couples who find themselves unwed today. But the fault lies not with the voters but with the courts who forsook their oaths and duties in order to legislate from the bench.

189 Marriage is a right? Man, I have lawsuits to file against a half dozen girls that broke up with me! I have a right to marry you! Um, and maybe another half dozen lawsuits on my desk from girls I broke up with.

Geez, that sucks.

More fun with rights later, or maybe this is one of those made-up rights, like right to healthcare and right to education, etc.

I don't buy marriage as a right.

190 And Gabe, let me explain what my personal position is, regardless of those assholes:

I've worked in publishing for over thirty years, spent nine years in the Army, and been lurking on the fringes of the movie business for around ten years.  Much to my surprise, I've met and worked with many gays (yes, in all three places.)  Out of that bunch, and I confess my knowledge of their personal lives is not encyclopedic, I've known one, countem, one long-term gay couple... both of whom died of AIDS.  So I don't need Andy Sullivan to suggest to me that the gay definition of marriage is not the one most folks know.

And that's the problem.  I have no problem with civil unions for gays, for gays to inherit from each other, to jointly own property, to be able to declare each other as deciding partners in medical situations, etc.  And I'm not stupid enough to think you can legislate happiness, even if this country did vote for Obama and I post here.

But when gays demand to "marry" they are demanding to arbitrarily redefine a binding life relationship millions of people have already entered into, after the fact.  This is a more serious matter than absconding with the word 'gay' so that it can no longer be realistically used to describe the worldview of a straight man who loves life.

And I just don't see where the gay community has the right to impose their worldview on these people without any single basis in Constitution, law or social precedent that I'm aware of.

191 It goes without saying that anyone engaging in violence or property damage should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Surely as conservatives it's the one thing we agree on regardless of our religion or sexual orientation. I doubt very much Gabriel Malor would disagree with you.

Sometimes things should and NEED to be said.

When things "go without saying" for too long, they sometimes become things that "go without doing."

192

4. The gay activists in California are assholes. They have harassed the BSA to no end. In SF you can not be involved with the BSA and hold a government job. So, if you are a Cub Scout leader for your kids pack, it's either that or your job. They forced a judge who was involved in the BSA all his life to quit. They tried to get the the ethical cannons of law to bar participation in the BSA. So, you couldn't practise law and have anything to do with the BSA. At least that failed. They did the Calif. Supreme Court to mandate that a judge who has any contact with the BSA declare it and recuse themselves if any of the attorneys or parties are gay. It's bullshit.

I second this post. Many things have happened in the past 72 hrs which are perhaps worthy of a moment of silence, this is not one.

 

193

OK, I found one example for you ADD-addled morons of Gabe putting his toe in the water, from one year ago (scroll thru the comments)

Now, I gave him a gentle ribbing (NTTAWWT) then, but regardless of your disagreement with him on Prop. 8, lay off the ad hominem attacks. Attack his pointless manifestos on maritime law instead.

Hominem, assholes.

194

given how gleefully gays throw us polygamists under the bus to get what they want it's hard to muster much sympathy for 'em, at least they get civil unions instead of jail time, whiny bitches.

195 If nothing else positive comes out of this, I must admit it's gratifying to see how many heterosexual couples think marriage is a sacred contract.

I'm looking forward to seeing that conviction reflected in a drastically reduced divorce rate.

196 I think that we define marriage as a union between a man and a woman because we are a faith based country and that is how the bible describes it.  By the same token, I would vociferously object to a union between partners of the same sex being called a marriage.  Not because of the reasons you think but because marriage in this country, the family, has been so undermined that those of us who are fighting though it are seeing the respect for us and the institution erode a little more every day.  Every day it becomes more difficult to just be a married couple with children, every institution every policy seems to conspire againnst a good marriage and a stable home life.  I realize that we, as a society, have not addressed our thoughts and feelings about marriage between a man and a woman and what it truly means to be married in our society in this day and age.   We have also not discussed what it means to be involved with someone of the opposite sex in this country in this day and age.  Truly a civil union designation would go a long way with married people as most of us would prefer the marriage designation to be left to us.  In the end, no one respects the married couple who has managed to stay successfully married for a long time.   No one sees how difficult having a successful marriage in this day and age truly is.  I think if everything in this country wasn't an attack on one institution to gain for another we might be slightly better off.  I think that is what has to happen with this issue.  You can't just attack the me s   you have to talk to me and understand why I want to keep marriage between a man and a woman.  From that dialogue will come a meeting og the minds I think but in all honesty it is difficult for us to understand why a civil union isn't the answer.

I must tell you that seeing the picture of Jesus Christ up there makes me wonder what you are trying to say by using that picture.

197 # 192

I lost all sympathy with the pro-homosexual lobby with their vicious attacks against the BSA after the Supreme Court held that a private group can decide who becomes members (I STILL can't believe that it wasn't a unanimous decision!!)

Their attempts (and sometimes successes) to hurt the BSA showed their true nature - that they aren't looking to for equality, they are looking to hurt and punish anyone that disagrees with them.

The BSA is a great, great organization that does many, many good things for kids.

To try to destroy them because you lost a court case shows the true evil lurking within.

198 Sometimes things should and NEED to be said.

When things "go without saying" for too long, they sometimes become things that "go without doing."

What percentages of Prop 8 opponents protested violently? Very small, I would wager.

What percentage of Prop 8 proponents were victims of violence? Very small, I would wager.

What percentage of Presidential critics commit violence toward the President? Very small, I would wager.

What percentage of Presidents have been struck by violence, killed by violence, or targeted for violence?

Very high.

I realize understanding analogies isn't your strongest suit, but try.

It goes without saying we shouldn't assassinate Presidents, so I don't add a pro-forma statement to the tail end of every criticism I make toward the President and you don't either.

Get it? No. Good. You're consistent.

199

All Americans do.  All Americans have a right to marry someone of the opposite gender.  If they choose not to avail themselves of that right, because they would prefer to marry someone of the same gender, that does not mean they were denied a right.

Rights are possessed by individuals, not pairs or groups.  The mindset that feels otherwise is generally known as "collectivist".  It's not all that popular around here.

Thread winner.

If I woke up tomorrow and realized I was gay, the set of partners legally available to me for marriage would change not at all from the day prior.  Therefore, no "rights" are being denied here and the appeal to "equal protection" is easily dismissed.

If a gay man wants a marriage recognized by the state, find a woman that qualifies for the partnership.  Not terribly complicated.  The state does not and should not care about how much you "love" that woman or how much you enjoy sexual relations with her.  The state only cares about your ability and willingness to crank out well-adjusted, law-abiding future tax-payers, and a male-female rearing environment has proved superior to all others for that task.

I fail to see why conservatives are supposed to get all weepy and emotive about this one particular issue when we credit ourselves (rightly) for being rational and dispassionate about all others.

200 #198

So, you disagree with the point that sometimes things SHOULD be said?

Your preoccupation with excusing what happened along with your consistent and insistent moral relativism is duly noted.

201

Homosexuals really can't be conservatives, because the most conservative institution on the planet is the family, which is made by the bedrock of marriage.  Gay marriage destroys all of that, it destroys the bedrock of the family, and it overthrows the foundation of pre-civil society.  The family has existed before government, but government should not destroy it.  Every homosexual in favor of gay marriage is not a conservative.

They're just another Andrew Sullivan in training.

 

202 Gays have a PR problem. They adopted a very in-your-face form of activism (think ACT UP), they indulge in some very public forms of decadent behavior (think the Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco), they attack and intimidate people who don't agree with them (think Dr Laura), and then they wonder why they don't get more votes for gay marriage.

I read an advice column by a gay writer in which he said, "if gay marriage passes, we won't have to follow the rules of monogamy like heterosexuals, we can continue having our multiple partners. It will just give us more rights such as hospital visitation."

Also, many people are afraid that gay marriage will open the door to polygamy.

203 If Gabe is gay, does that mean we can't use cocksucker, the AofS main cuss word, without offending him?

I am gay man and I am not offended.

I'm also married to a woman.  We have three children.

I am not attracted to men,  but then again,  I am gay.

Women turn me on.  Especially my wife.  She knows I'm gay.

So,  you might ask,  what makes me gay ?  Because I say so.  That's what makes me gay.  I am lovin' my gay lifestyle!  I am super gay and no thanks to man sex!  Thanks for askin',  though!

Am I messing up a term?  Am I messing with language?  Am I changing the meaning of a word?  Am I being ridiculous?

No.

I'm being gay.

204 "But could we have a moment of silence for those poor fools who were happily married or engaged yesterday and today are finding out that they don't have squat?"

If the government doesn't approve it, you have squat? That's an odd statement for a conservative to make.

205 So, you disagree with the point that sometimes things SHOULD be said?

Of course not. The key word being "sometimes". But not every single person has to, nor does it have to be tacked on routinely.

Have you, consistently throughout your life, brought up the vicious violence against homosexuals that has been perpetuated against homosexuals whenever talking about homosexual issues?

Why not?

And you didn't on this thread, so you can hardly answer yes. But you're applying a double standard toward Gabriel.

Thousands of homosexuals are beaten or killed yearly around the world, and at least a few (more than that) in the United States. Often on the street, in homes, etc.

Historically, millions have been murdered, denied employment, whatever.

How many Prop 8 opponents were killed?

I don't want to minimize the assholish behavior of some Prop 8 opponents, but I do want to put it in perspective: You are categorically holding Gabriel Malor to a standard you do not meet.

206 Marriage IS a right.. that was one of the main points made when inter-racial marriage was legalized.. that "marriage is a fundamental right."

207

Marriage IS a right.. that was one of the main points made when inter-racial marriage was legalized.. that "marriage is a fundamental right."

And no one is stopping anyone from getting "married".  But no one has a right to insist that the state legally recognize their relationship.  Feel free to quote from the Constitution if you can find an assertion to the contrary.

208 Well, gabe. You have to love the hate.

209

And I just don't see where the gay community has the right to impose their worldview on these people without any single basis in Constitution, law or social precedent that I'm aware of.

14th amendment: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws..

Marriage can have two meanings.

1. The legal definition, which carrys with it all the same privledges with it that a civil union does, so by forcing homosexuals to call it a civil union you are adhering to a "separate but equal" philosophy which is forbidden under the 14th (see Jim Crow).

2. The religious context that marriage has some kind of spiritual meaning, and said religions do not allow same sex marriages. In this case you have a simple 1st amendment establishment of religion violation, by giving the definition of marriage to one or more religions, you are establishing those religions over any other. Since allowing gay marriage does not prevent anyone from practicing their own religion, there is no exercise exemption to the establisment clause.

Either way, banning gay marriage is unconstitutional.

210 Marriage IS a right.. that was one of the main points made when inter-racial marriage was legalized.. that "marriage is a fundamental right."

No, it isn't a right, but even if it were the logic breaks down.

Free speech is a right, and redefining what that right is via the "Fairness Doctrine" is just as unsettling as redefining a marriage right as something other than a partnership between one man and one woman.

211 8 & 12 are the only silver linings from yesterday. I'm sorry you were hurt but they are the only silver linings for some of us. I do not take pleasure in the pain caused by the loss. The loss of 4 is typical but still a disappointment. The high speed train thing is ridiculous. This is what you get when Obamanians decide to fill in other areas of the ballot. And, 2? I am not eating chicken from Mexico or South America. If I have to pay higher prices for my food, I might as well live somewhere prettier than here... like Alaska.

In the cocksucker vein, I tried explaining to my man that saying something sucks sweaty balls is not actually a negative descriptive. We will continue to disagree. Oh, and go ahead and call me cunt to my face, that'll make a fun youtube video.

212 Marriage is a right, and one that all adults have. But it is a union of man and woman. Marrying anyone you want is not and has never been what marriage is.

213

Actually, I believe I only voted yes on the Prop 8, Vet's funding and the victims rights ones...

All the others no f'ing way.  I explained it like this to my wife when we discussed the spending on the props.  "Wouldn't it be great to go out and buy a brand new car to replace my old truck?  Wouldn't it be great to replace that old TV with a big screen BluRay?  Sure it would but we can't put money away for retirement and our kids 529 for college."  It's all about what you can afford.  This freaking state is like every other american now... Spend, spend spend like drunken sailors and don't worry about tomorrow.

214 Can I just be a human being for a moment and say that I'm sorry you're hurting, Gabe?  No political argument, no wittiness, and no amount of snark (see most of posts above) can change that simple fact.

215 Have you, consistently throughout your life, brought up the vicious violence against homosexuals that has been perpetuated against homosexuals whenever talking about homosexual issues?

Hmmm....

...you're really in a lather over this subject.

It must have touched too close to home for you.

You continue with moral relativism and continue to make this issue the "main" point of my problem with Gabe's theatrics.

Let me make this nice and clear for you:

No amount/type of prior violence to gays absolves them from acting legally and responsibly. 

No amount/type of prior "oppression" to gays absolves them from acting violently and nastily.

And I will continue to have no sympathy/empathy for a movement that encourages and engages in such activity or for people who IMPLICITLY support such activity by not speaking out against it.

If the homosexual lobby wants to go back to the 'golden years' when it was making serious inroads, then it should drop the attempts to FORCE things through judicial mandates and drop the virulent attempts to label opponents as 'haters' and 'ignorant.'

216 I tried explaining to my man that saying something sucks sweaty balls is not actually a negative descriptive. We will continue to disagree.

Could you be pronouncing it wrong? It's spelled sweaty but pronounced schwety. Try it on him tonight.

217 The creation and maintenance of family, the odd quirk of nature that opposite sexes produce children naturally, and the need to constrain this behaviour for the benefit of civilization because of the results of not doing so, it the reason there is a marriage.

It has an exalted status among other family relationships because of that fact. No other relationship assures the continuance of family lines. No other relationship is its equivalent.

218

Like I said, if you're in favor of overturning the bedrock foundation of civilization - the family, which rests upon marriage - then you're NOT a conservative. 

You're just an Andrew Sullivan in training.

219

Either way, banning gay marriage is unconstitutional.

See my #199.  You guys are never going to win this argument on legal or constitutional grounds.  Your logic is simply indefensible, and you embarrass yourselves (and hurt your cause) by tilting at this windmill.

But go ahead and identify for me which people a gay man may not legally marry that an equivalent-in-every-way straight man may marry.  I'll wait.

220 anon hetero -- where in the interracial marriage rulings does it define marriage as other than between a man and a woman.

Redefine it for gays and you have to, in strict logic, redefine it for polygamists, and hell, for that matter, you undercut any legal procscription on pedophiliac relationships.  Sure, she's only 12, your honor, but hey, love is love...

221 Also, many people are afraid that gay marriage will open the door to polygamy.

Which is kind of funny, isn't it, when polygamy has been practiced around the world for thousands of years in Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, and non-Judeo-Christian cultures, but gay marriage hasn't. So I'd say the criticism that gay marriage could open the door to polygamous marriage is very strong.

Not that I, as a libertarian and supporter of freedom of religion, have a moral problem with polygamy among consenting adults. It's already legal to move into a big house, and have orgies and fuck fests all day, or have sex in front of a camera in a big group orgy with millions of people watching.

I'm not saying the above is good, but it is legal. And I'm supposed to get upset because adults want to have a polygamous marriage as practiced in the Old Testament?

In any event, if you oppose polygamous marriage you should definitely oppose gay marriage, because there's a whole lot more historical support for it than gay marriage.

But as yesterday's election proved the masses are nothing if not illogical.

Christian: Gay marriage? Yeah, I'm okay with that. Can't be hateful at all. Jesus is love, pure love. No, I don't read the Bible much. (Sometimes I do, but I skip those parts.)

Same Christian: That's evil! It's against God's will. No, I don't read the Bible much. (Sometimes I do, but I skip those parts.)

Non-Christian: Shakes head.

222 Gabe, I am very sorry for your distress. Not sorry enough to shut up, it seems. I guess that discussion is for another thread, or another time.

I apologize for the stridency of my tone.

223 The "Same Christian" I referred to above was answering a follow-up question about polygamy.

224 I'm not saying the above is good, but it is legal. And I'm supposed to get upset because adults want to have a polygamous marriage as practiced in the Old Testament?

It should be noted, that while the Old Testament contains many instances of polygamy, it NEVER condones it.

In fact, polygamy is one of the reasons given that Solomon's kingdom crumbled.

225 206 Marriage IS a right.. that was one of the main points made when inter-racial marriage was legalized.. that "marriage is a fundamental right."


You're wrong and you should never practice law.

I found this in a brief bank:

The United States Supreme Court decided the merits of a federal equal protection challenge to marriage laws in 1972 when it summarily dismissed the appeal in Baker v. Nelson, 191 N.W.2d 185 (Minn. 1971), appeal dismissed for want of a substantial federal question, 409 U.S. 810 (1972). As Justice Kennard of the California Supreme Court recently noted in regard to Baker, it “is a decision . . . binding on all other courts and public officials, that a state law restricting marriage to opposite-sex couples does not violate the federal Constitution’s guarantees of equal protection and due process of law.”  Lockyer v. City and County of San Francisco, 33 Cal. 4th 1055, 1126 (2004) (Kennard, J., concurring in part and dissenting in part) (emphasis original). Justice Kennard further pointed out that “[u]ntil the United States Supreme Court says otherwise, which it has not yet done, Baker v. Nelson defines federal constitutional law on the question whether a state may deny same-sex couples the right to marry.”  Id. at 1127.

    In Baker v. Nelson the United States Supreme Court considered and rejected the claims by two men that Minnesota’s exclusion of same-sex couples from marriage violated the Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution. The Court’s action upheld the Minnesota Supreme Court’s ruling that there is no fundamental right to same-sex “marriage” under the Ninth Amendment or the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, and that excluding same-sex couples from marriage does not constitute irrational or invidious discrimination under the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. See Baker, 191 N.W.2d at 186-87. The Minnesota Supreme Court had ruled that the state’s definition of marriage “does not offend the First, Eighth, Ninth, or Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.”  Id. at 187.


In fact, the  

226

Out:  It's for the children.

In:  It's for the chickens and cows. 

Coming Soon to a Court Near You:  The ADA applies to farm animals.

227 Marriage is about children, not love.

228 I love this country too much to do to President-Elect Obama what the left did to President Bush, John McCain and Sarah Palin. We're better than that.

I'm not.  I'm going into political Guerrilla-war mode.

229 waaaaaaay up above in the comments (number 23, actually) we find:

The state needs to get out of the marriage business, period.

That's what I've been saying to anyone who will listen for the past few years. Contract law can step in with a suitable option such that people can decide what they want to share and how; let communities, and ultimately individuals, decide what they want to call "marriage."

Just as the law can't change one's relationship, neither can what someone else calls "marriage" threaten my marriage.

230

Whoa. Well there's too much to reply to here, but a few quick things:

I never said I was "brave" and I don't think it's particularly brave to "come out" in this fashion since, as several of the old guard have mentioned, I've been out for quite some time.

The purpose of this post was merely to say, "All arguments aside, could we muster up some sympathy for a small group of people who took it in the teeth?" As I said, Prop 8 was squarely directed at a particular group; and it affects that group much more than it does anyone else. If you don't like that, or think it is too theatrical, nothing is stopping you from scrolling to the next post. We try to keep content rolling for that very reason.

Whether or not the government, a proxy for community, recognizes certain relationships and not others has important sociological effects on individuals and their behavior, setting aside all the contractual bits. Consider how much damage the mainstreaming of single parenthood has done, especially to urban blacks. More emphasis on marriage would certainly have helped. Similarly, a greater emphasis on marriage in the gay community would continue the great strides that have been made away from the gay counterculture of the late 1970s.

Finally, guys, I don't care if you say cocksucker or sucker of cock. I mean, really. Really.

231 It should be noted, that while the Old Testament contains many instances of polygamy, it NEVER condones it.

It does not come out and say it's wrong. It's silent on the issue. Indeed, many favored of God in the Bible practice it, even Moses who took two wives, a Midianite woman Zipporah and a Cushite woman. Nor did Mosaic Law condemn polygamy, which is strange if God had a problem with it.

He was forbidding all sorts of other things people liked. You'd think he'd have mentioned it. Instead, he regulated it saying men shouldn't marry sisters or a woman and her daughter so as to preserve the family relationship.

(This does go to show just how fucked up many FLDS relationships were: Not only did they abusively involve often very young people and/or arranged marriage, but they were un Biblical in that they frequently involved sisters and occasionally, a mom and daughter.)

Even Solomon wasn't condemned for taking wives, he fell out with God for taking foreign wives that lead him to practice idolatry.

King David? Real horn dog. And God isn't on record criticizing him for his polygamy, but did for his adultery.

Jacob, Moses, Abraham, Gideon, and Samuel were all tight with God despite their practice of polygamy or being born into a polygamous family, of which God is not on record condemning.

It's interesting to note that the Bible doesn't record any instance of God approving of homosexual sex or homosexual marriage. And Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality, not polygamy, except to the extent the polygamous relationships involved homosexuality.

It was only around the New Testament that Paul especially talked about either celibacy or monogamy as the ideal to shoot for. Bizarrely in my opinion, he felt celibacy best which is why the Catholic church places such a huge emphasis on it.

With predictable consequences, which, fortunately, the majority of Catholic priests do not participate in, and a still smaller number do not hide.

232 Really.

233 I never said I was "brave" and I don't think it's particularly brave to "come out" in this fashion since, as several of the old guard have mentioned, I've been out for quite some time.

That is true; you didn't (a point I made). Other people called it brave, and I thought that was a bit over the top. Glad to see you agree.

234 It goes without saying that anyone engaging in violence or property damage should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Posted by: Anon Hetero at November 05, 2008 12:28 PM (lus7y)

Well, in the city of LA, it's not and never will be. Many in the prosecutor and DA office have supervisory positions because they are gay. In the past when there have been gay riots, they refused to prosecute. Crimes that are filed on straights, are deferred on gays. It causes a lot of problems with the rank and file in the offices but they are fucked if they publicly complain.

235 Well, in the city of LA, it's not and never will be.

Well, that's fucked up and it's not my problem that LA's a shithole. But I condemn that violence and it should be prosecuted, as well as the corrupt prosecutors and supervisors fired and shamed.

There. I'm record. Gabriel Malor, I'm sure you agree?

236

Well, in the city of LA, it's not and never will be.

Ditto for the Bay Area and Sacramento for that matter.

237

Similarly, a greater emphasis on marriage in the gay community would continue the great strides that have been made away from the gay counterculture of the late 1970s.

With all due respect, what great strides? They have even reopened "bath houses" up here for crying out loud.

238 RZ,

Do you think the downfall of Solomon's kingdom was because he had all those wives and concubines (which were referred to as blessings granted by God) or because he allowed himself to be persuaded to follow after other gods?

This, like the story of King David, is often pointed to, incorrectly in my opinion, as exemplary of a "one man, one woman" model in the Bible. David wasn't punished for having sex with Bathsheba, he was punished for stealing a wife and orchestrating murder.

Decide how you feel about polygamy based upon moral or practical grounds however you wish, but don't ascribe monogamy to Judeo-Christian tradition. It was a Roman institution that was imposed upon the Jews during their captivity. To argue otherwise would involve a dishonest reading of history.

Do I condone polygamy? Not particularly. Do I feel as if it should be permissible under the framework of the law? See my above quote from CTD...

The state needs to get out of the marriage business, period.

239

Well shit I certainly did not realize that this site was some freakin pc site where how you really think about an issue need be sensitive to some of the freakin site's posters....fucking feelings!

NOW I am having a bad fucking day!

If civil unions are not good enough, fucking change the law by getting those in your state to buy in  not some fucking judge legislating from the bench!

The fact that you thought it was OK for the judge to overturn the right of the people in the first place says more about your brand of conservatism than anything else you could say! and a huge reason why the Republican party is not the party of conservatism and small govenrment anymore....to many fucking interlopers calling themselves conservatives when really the are just Democrats (socially) who want to keep some of their fucking money through tax cuts!

240

Santos, imagine for a minute that your neighbors held a vote and decided that your marriage was null and void.

 

Gabriel,

 

Our neighbors would not do that, because it would be against their best interests.

 

The reason the state (and community) gives a damn about marriage is because it will usually result in the creation of children, and the state needs to know that the parents are committed to taking care of the children (so everyone else does not.)

 

This is totally missed by both sides of this debate. HETEROSEXUAL marriage benefits the community. HOMOSEXUAL marriage benefits the couple.

 

I admit, I am still thinking this through. I don’t take this lightly at all. And the juvenile idiots and bible thumpers around here are actually boosting your position and killing mine. (Thanks guys.)

 

I think I am right in opposing state-sanctioned gay marriage (plenty of churches will sanction it) on the grounds that it does not benefit anyone but the couple.

 

 

241 and by the way YOU are hurting today over one fucking proposition and the country is now being controlled by a fucking Socialist Government....NOW that is a world of hurt!

242 I notice Religious Zealot has a real problem with Gabriel not condemning anti-Prop 8 supporter violence, but has gone notably silent when I've pointed out how he has not made it his standard practice throughout life -- or here -- to condemn anti-homosexual violence, which has quite the historical pedigree and has brought pain and claimed lives even in California.

Funny that.

243 Well, Gabriel, when (if) you can persuade a majority of the electorate to redefine "marriage" to include unions of the same sex, more power to you. I said "Yes on 8" because I wanted to ram that bit of egregious judicial activism right back down SCOCA's throat. But fear not;  I'm confident the California courts will find a way to override the will of the electorate. They do it all the time. In the meanwhile, don't worry, be happy.

244 f*ck   cops and fuck abortion permission

245
Can we have a moment of silence for all us prop-8 supporters who have been called "bigots" and "hateful" for the last two months too?

246 no now parnets are gonna want the baby when its a girls body she does what she wants to and if they cant abort babys then theyll kill them them selve

247 It does not come out and say it's wrong. It's silent on the issue. Indeed, many favored of God in the Bible practice it, even Moses who took two wives, a Midianite woman Zipporah and a Cushite woman. Nor did Mosaic Law condemn polygamy, which is strange if God had a problem with it.

He was forbidding all sorts of other things people liked. You'd think he'd have mentioned it. Instead, he regulated it saying men shouldn't marry sisters or a woman and her daughter so as to preserve the family relationship.

God also stated that marriage is between one woman and one man: "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. Genesis 2:24"

Anything else is an argument from silence, which doesn't prove anything.

I mean, how many times does God have to declare something so?


Even Solomon wasn't condemned for taking wives, he fell out with God for taking foreign wives that lead him to practice idolatry.

King David? Real horn dog. And God isn't on record criticizing him for his polygamy, but did for his adultery.

Jacob, Moses, Abraham, Gideon, and Samuel were all tight with God despite their practice of polygamy or being born into a polygamous family, of which God is not on record condemning.

Again, absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Silence is not that same thing as condoning.

It's interesting to note that the Bible doesn't record any instance of God approving of homosexual sex or homosexual marriage. And Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality, not polygamy, except to the extent the polygamous relationships involved homosexuality.

Actually, Sodom was destroyed for their multitudes of sinful behavior:

" 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.  They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." Ezekiel 16:49-50

It was only around the New Testament that Paul especially talked about either celibacy or monogamy as the ideal to shoot for. Bizarrely in my opinion, he felt celibacy best which is why the Catholic church places such a huge emphasis on it.

Christ was asked point blank about divorce and answered in terms of God's plan for marriage which consists of ONE man and ONE woman:

"Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?

So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." Matthew 19:3-6

248 On Prop 8: I know most of you disagree with me about it. But could we have a moment of silence for those poor fools who were happily married or engaged yesterday and today are finding out that they don't have squat? Prop 8 was much more personal than some silly high-speed train or hospital funding. People are hurting today. And I'm one of them

I feel sympathy for you and the other 11,000 (or probably more) gay couples who were married in California, but if Prop 8 passes I think it is the right result.

I voted for Prop 8 for three main reasons.
(1) I never heard a reason why civil unions were not sufficient;
(2) I objected to how the court overturned Californians' earlier vote on this issue; and,
(3) I believe that by redefining marriage to include gay couples, the door is wide open for other arrangements, such as polygamy, for which society is just not ready.

The third reason is my biggest concern. It seems to me that polygamy would be even more of a right than same-sex marriage, particularly when a person's religious beliefs encourage it. In Great Britain, polygamy is illegal, however their 'welfare' system has begun providing additional benefits to polygamous families. This, it seems to me, is the start of recognizing polygamy and parallels what has happened in the U.S. with employee benefits.

If we are going to go down that path, then we really need to have some discussions as a society -- not have a couple of judges decide that for us. Taking the argument further, if gay marriage is permissible, why not marriages between siblings or close relatives? Decoupling marriage from procreation means that there really is no reason why two sisters or two brothers can't marry.

I've said this on other forums, but since you have a personal stake in this I'd like to say it here. The advocates of gay marriage did a poor job making their case to people, like me, who really don't object to gay couples and families, but who are truly concerned about the issues I outlined above. I moved to California in 2007. At that time, I probably would have been inclined to vote no on Prop 8, but after hearing the arguments and the tone in which they were delivered by gay rights advocates, I became concerned that no one was thinking about this carefully. It did not help to have Newsom be so obnoxious when he performed the first marriages in SF, nor does it help when supporters of gay marriage lump all of us who supported Prop 8 with the religious right.

So, I am really sorry for your situation. I'm sure it hurts. Although for me I am mostly devastated by Obama's victory, which I believe was achieved illegally and immorally.

249 RZ,

Do you think the downfall of Solomon's kingdom was because he had all those wives and concubines (which were referred to as blessings granted by God) or because he allowed himself to be persuaded to follow after other gods?

A bit of both, actually.

If he didn't have multiple wives, with the inherit need to placate all those women, then he wouldn't have gotten into trouble.


Decide how you feel about polygamy based upon moral or practical grounds however you wish, but don't ascribe monogamy to Judeo-Christian tradition. It was a Roman institution that was imposed upon the Jews during their captivity. To argue otherwise would involve a dishonest reading of history.

Actually, God states very clear in Genesis His plan for marriage - one man, one woman.

And Jesus reiterates this.

While Mosaic law did not come down hard on polygamy, it has never been a Christian 'tradition' and both Christ and Paul taught otherwise.

250 I notice Religious Zealot has a real problem with Gabriel not condemning anti-Prop 8 supporter violence, but has gone notably silent when I've pointed out how he has not made it his standard practice throughout life -- or here -- to condemn anti-homosexual violence, which has quite the historical pedigree and has brought pain and claimed lives even in California.

Funny that.

Funny how you're still stuck on moral equivalence and moral relativity.

251

Gabe is gay... as in homosexual gay?

<insert_crickets_chirping>

Yea, I don't give a shit either.

I am against "gay marriage" though because to me it is redefining a word that has an existing meaning.  To 99% of the population, marriage is a man and a woman.  To change it to include gay couples would be calling a cat a dog.

Let me see if I can give a really bad analogy... I do not sleep well, never have... it is because of the genetic cesspool known as my Mom's family and if I told you my maternal grandma's maiden name, you would know why... don't ask, I do not want to be shunned here at AoSHQ.  Anyway, does my lack of sleep cause me issues, you bet... does it seem to me to be a disability, sure, a handicap in my daily life, no doubt.  Am I covered by the ADA, nope.  Can I park in a handicapped zone, nope.  If there was a ballot measure to add lack of sleep to the official list of handicaps, would I vote for it, not a chance.  Because it is not a handicap as 99% of the people define it.  It just sucks to be me on this issue, that is life, deal with it.

And please do not attempt to use the I just want what everone else wants, to marry the person I love.  No you do not or else the prop would have said anyone can marry anyone, no limits.  What you want is to simply move the line so gays are on the other side of the line and those that want to marry kids or those that want to marry more than one person etc., are still on the other side of the line.

So put to the voters some sort of civil union measure that has the same legalities as marriage, just do not call it marriage, and you have my vote.  Just do not ask me to call something other than a man and a woman marriage.

Best wishes to you and your significant other Gabe.

252

The reason the state (and community) gives a damn about marriage is because it will usually result in the creation of children, and the state needs to know that the parents are committed to taking care of the children (so everyone else does not.)

 

This is totally missed by both sides of this debate. HETEROSEXUAL marriage benefits the community. HOMOSEXUAL marriage benefits the couple.

 

I admit, I am still thinking this through. I don’t take this lightly at all. And the juvenile idiots and bible thumpers around here are actually boosting your position and killing mine. (Thanks guys.)

 

I think I am right in opposing state-sanctioned gay marriage (plenty of churches will sanction it) on the grounds that it does not benefit anyone but the couple.

253 it is because of the genetic cesspool known as my Mom's family and if I told you my maternal grandma's maiden name, you would know why...

Hey now, not all Kennedy's are bad.

254

Santos, imagine for a minute that your neighbors held a vote and decided that your marriage was null and void.

Gabriel, I don't want to make light of what you are feeling, but love isn't defined by the State.

Let's say that our country no longer recognized religious based marriages. Let's say they required you to have  a "civil" one. Do you think I would be running out to get married in the courthouse because my church wedding wasn't approved by the state?

Hell no.

What I believe is enough for me. It should be for you too. 

255 Don't worry Gabriel.
The One will come through and overturn this for you.

And, BTW, I don't have any strong feelings about gay marriage.  Gay marriage makes about as much sense as tits on a bull, but hey, whatever blows your skirt up.  Us heterosexuals have done way more to destroy this institution than the homosexual population will.  They're just pulling the plug.

However, I do have strong feelings about the fact that California made a decision about gay marriage only to have it overturned by some judge who figured his opinion counted more than the entire state of California and was willing to use his position to negate a legitimate democratic vote.
You have no idea how much that burns me.

But I better get used to the idea that the Constitution means whatever the One wants it to mean.

And I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the Constitution there is a right to gay marriage.  If you look hard enough.

256 Um, RZ, with all due respect, the passages you cite address the relationship dynamic of marriage, not the structure.

To extrapolate that the structure was limited by what was explicitly stated would be akin to saying that acts of necessity on the Sabbath weren't valid unless it was a case of literally one ox in one ditch. Again, believe what you will believe, but don't lay a foundation that's flawed. It only weakens the argument you build upon it.

Rightwingsparkle, first and foremost, I LOVE your blog!! The point you make isn't bad, but the fact is that if the country did require "civil" marriages to be recognized, you WOULD have to go to the courthouse if you wanted to preserve things like power of attorney, inheritance rights, etc., that you currently enjoy with your spouse. What you believe wouldn't hold up in court, if your spouse tried to make a claim to either. Your argument actually reinforces my position that the granting of the decree of "marriage" should be strictly one that's done through religious (or other community) groups, and that the government should provide only the legal structure that would allow any relationship access to the current privileges extended to married couples.

Wouldn't necessarily have to be a typical "marriage" arrangement, either...could be two widowed siblings who want to take care of each other in their twilight years. Could be a close (and straight) friendship in which one person has a terminal disease, and wants the support and security of such an arrangement.

It would end the fighting (at least in the government arena) over what constitutes marriage, and pave a way for all sorts of benefits to society and to the individual people that compose it.

257 Us heterosexuals have done way more to destroy this institution than the homosexual population will.

RayJ, couldn't have said it better myself...lol

258 And in case I'm not being clear, with all the theological debate regarding polygamy, and such, I don't support state-sanctioned gay marriage.

I don't support state-sanctioned "straight" marriage, either, though.

Make of it what you will.

259 The purpose of this post was merely to say, "All arguments aside, could we muster up some sympathy for a small group of people who took it in the teeth?" As I said, Prop 8 was squarely directed at a particular group...

Yes, a particular group that doesn't exactly have the 'sanctity of marriage' upmost in mind.

A particular group that decided its best campaign strategy was to accuse opponents of being 'hateful' and 'ignorant' and 'bigots.'

A particular group that thought that maligning religion was a good way to go in getting their point across.

A particular group that seemed not to mind that the whole issue came up because the judiciary made a legislative decision.

A particular group of people who have the audacity to compare their "struggle" akin to the struggle of slavery.

A particular group who has within them people who are not looking for equality, but looking for superiority and looking to hurt and damage those with contrary views.

Sorry, but I've tried, but I simply can not come up with one iota of sympathy for the this 'particular group'.

Especially when one considers that the core of their same-sex relationships has not been changed.

260 Um, RZ, with all due respect, the passages you cite address the relationship dynamic of marriage, not the structure.

I'm sorry, but ONE man ONE woman, TWO become ONE is DEFINITELY addressing the structure of marriage.

How many people in a marriage? Two.
How many males? One.
How many females? One.

261 Uh, gabe.

Now, why are you a republican?

262 Dear Gabriel,
I am so sorry. Legally un-married because prop. 8 passed. I feel sympathy for you and that you are so wounded.

Still, for some stupid reason, as I cast my ballot, a thought crossed my tiny little mind that maybe the wrath of God would descend on us if prop. 8 did not pass. Some silly Old Testament curse would zap us like ants sprayed with RAID.

But then I remembered that God loves us all and your marriage is in your heart and God's heart too. I voted No on 8. Peace

263 It's not my ox being gored -- I'm neither gay nor Californian -- but I'm with you. I can understand -- and to some extent agree with -- the folks who didn't like their Supreme Court turning a preferred public policy into a right, but, sheesh . . . This, too, shall pass.

264 On prop 8: My sympathies. Whenever government changes its mind, somebody always gets screwed.  We have thousands of people who can be charged with a felony walking around in California because some clerk or pol in Sacramento changed his mind about what kind of gun qualified as an 'assault weapon'.  Welcome to my world, and I hope you'll save a fair share of your blame for the idiot judges who felt they had the legal authority and moral mandate to tell the majority of voters to go to Hell.

265

The Prop 8 opponents will find a case that gets the new California constitutional provision reviewed by the Supreme Court.    In one sense, this could lead to the ultimate vicorty for gay marriage, the US Supreme Court declaring that the equal protection guarante of the 14th amendment protects an individuals right to marry who they choose. 

I am a straight married man who voted in favor of Prop 8 only because of two things:

1) Teacher taking kindergarders to see a lesbian wedding.
2) Teacher making kindergardners signs a GLBT diverstiy pledge card.

Bad move for those two individuals, and the teachers union, to jump into the fray at that point in the game.  It was political suicide to shove that in the face of the average family voter.

 

 

266

According to Joan Hollinger, a professor at the University of California, Berkeley, Boalt Hall School of Law, "Constitutional scholars agree that the amendment cannot be effective retroactively."

The principal reason the amendment cannot be effective retroactively is the provision of the United States Constitution that prohibits the states from enacting laws which impair the obligation of contracts in Article I, Section 10 of the United States Constitution. The Ex Post Facto clause of the Constitution generally has been construed to prohibit the enactment of statutes which impose criminal penalties on conduct not previously defined as criminal, or which increase the penalties for act after the act has been committed.

267

I’m sorry for Gabriel.  As a social libertarian, my personal preference would be for the government to stay the hell out of the marriage business all together.  (I also hate the judicial activism that created this brouhaha in the first place.)  But my spiteful, mean side is pleased to see Prop 8 pass because it reveals an inherent instability in Barry Obama’s coalition:  Lots of the people that voted for him (my guess is many socially conservative Black and Hispanic voters) are not copasetic with homosexuals and homosexual rights.  I’m looking forward to the inevitable clash between unions and Hispanics supporting immigration reform.   I’m not sure who will end up the big winner there.  The unions have poured a lot of money in the Dems  coffers but granting amnesty for millions of illegal aliens could provide the Dems with an almost indomitable voting coalition for years to come.   

268 Actually, Sodom was destroyed for their multitudes of sinful behavior:

" 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.  They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." Ezekiel 16:49-50

So, Religious Zealot, basically you're pulling it out of your ass.

We see polygamy is all over the place in the Old Testament and prior to the comment I quoted, you flat-out said polygamy is one of the reasons God destroyed Sodom, and that is your evidence?

Is it the overeating that proves your point? The stinginess? Or the haughtiness and detestable things?

So in the Old Testament, on the one hand we have a multitude of polygamous marriages involving the main players and characters until the Jews were conquered by the Romans, a culture that just so happened to practice marriage as between one man and one woman, and both the Jews and later Christians adopt this structure (the latter also adopting the time of the Roman Saturnalia festival's late December date for Jesus Christ's "birthday"), and on the other we have "haughty and detestable"?

I have 2 words for you:

Sick Boy

269 I'm sorry but it's a victory for children, not to be placed in abusive homes...

270 We see polygamy is all over the place in the Old Testament and prior to the comment I quoted, you flat-out said polygamy is one of the reasons God destroyed Sodom, and that is your evidence?

Umm...

...you need to re-read what I stated because you're confusing SOLOMON and SODOM.

I NEVER stated that polygamy was why Sodom was destroyed.

However, I DID say "In fact, polygamy is one of the reasons given that Solomon's kingdom crumbled." (post 224)

I have two words for you: reading comprehension

271 The third reason is my biggest concern. It seems to me that polygamy would be even more of a right than same-sex marriage, particularly when a person's religious beliefs encourage it.

The ACLU specifically states that they consider laws banning polygamy to be unconstitutional.

http://www.acluutah.org/pluralmarriage.htm

And the liberal gays have puked forward this little gem that makes it clear what they want.

http://beyondmarriage.org/

My personal favorite: "Households in which there is more than one conjugal partner"

Not every gay person believes in this, of course, myself included. But unfortunately, we've been pretty much hijacked by screaming idiots who think their sexual orientation is an excuse for the government to endorse and benefit whatever damnfool thing they can dream up doing.

272

Well Kaptain Amerika there was no victory for children in the state of CA yesterday!  No parental notification of abortion? and the same people voted down gay marriage talk about some twisted thinking.

OH by the way can we leave the "feelings" to the liberals and just get the government out of our lives period?

I don't want laws based off of feelings I prefer it be based off of the Constitution of the United States which is a NONLIVING document, it doesn't breathe and it certainly doesn't FEEL!

 

273 261 Uh, gabe.

Now, why are you a republican?

Because his sexual orientation doesn't require him to vote a certain way, just like me.

You wouldn't understand that, being a Democrat.

274 "However, I DID say "In fact, polygamy is one of the reasons given that Solomon's kingdom crumbled." (post 224)"

Totally right. Thanks.

And your evidence for Solomon's kingdom collapsing from polygamy as opposed to God being upset that Solomon entered polygamous relations with women who worshipped other Gods and idols is... ?

275 Christoph = Anon Hetero (for reasons explained on another thread)

276 >>Posted by: North Dallas Thirty at November 05, 2008 03:56

Thanks -- I didn't realize the ACLU had already taken that position (re polygamy), not that it surprises me.

In all honesty, although I am a very old-fashioned straight Catholic gal, I sincerely wrestled with this issue re Prop 8. In particular, I'm not especially comfortable with the fact that I am currently drawing the line re polygamy in a way that interferes with some people's religious and cultural beliefs. I guess Mormons have changed their stance on polygamy, but I wonder if that has more to do with pressure from outside rather than a sincere change in their understanding of God's will. With the spread of Islam, it seems to me that polygamy is not something we can ignore and hope goes away.

That's what really concerns me about the gay marriage issue. The gay rights activists I've tried to engage on this issue seem to not have thought about this at all -- instead, most seem to prefer to engage on an emotional level about "fairness" and/or mock Prop 8 supporters for being bible thumpers. When I've raised the polygamy issue, the answer I've gotten is that we shouldn't worry about that because not many people will ask for that right. THAT is a laughable position -- one minority group demanding a right while simultaneously ignoring the "rights" of another group.

I keep tabs on GayPatriot, which I find to be a very thoughtful website, but I still have not read what is so limiting about domestic partnerships or other contractual/legal arrangements.

277 >> 261 Uh, gabe.
>>Now, why are you a republican?

>>Because his sexual orientation doesn't require him to vote
>> a certain way, just like me.

Good response, North Dallas Thirty.

Personally, I find folks who are Republicans despite differences on cultural/social issues to be some of the most thoughtful ones. They are analyzing policies based on the good of the country, rather than purely based on their personal lifestyle choices, and tend to be focused on limited government and strong defense.

I am worried about what will happen with the Republican party in the next two years. If the religious right takes over, I'm going to have to leave the party. Our party should welcome and encourage people of faith, not mandate it.

278 I voted for Prop 8, but anyone who lacks compassion for Gabe is unconscionable.

There may be a lack of compassion for Gabe, but there is a shitload of "Christian love" for him.  Words like, "Sucked in faggots. You especially Gabriel." are just dripping with "Christian love"!

279 SuprKufr, given that I've seen gay and lesbian activists call for the death of another gay person's child just because they disagreed with their politics, you might want to think just a tiny bit before you start running the lawnmower through the gravel bed.

http://tinyurl.com/56wbdx

280 For you to say that the other measures that were on the ballett were not of the same importance as measure 8 is the most absurd thing that I have heard in a long time.  Some peolpe feel that the rights of parental notification and victim notifications are more important than faggots having the right to call their joke of a relationship legal.  I will be damned if I allow some school to teach my child about gays and lesbians, I will teach my child about the Bible and what the Bible says about gays.  I could care less about you being able to marry, I care about jobs being opened for Americans who are out of work ( high speed railroad and childrens hospitals) that is more important to me. 

281 SuprKufr, given that I've seen gay and lesbian activists call for the death of another gay person's child just because they disagreed with their politics, you might want to think just a tiny bit before you start running the lawnmower through the gravel bed.

Gay activists are horrible people.  They agitate for a "separate but equal" lifestyle for gays that basically celebrates meth abuse.  They are not my "community".  They do not speak for me and I have called them out publicly for trying do speak on my behalf.  They call me a "self-hating gay" and a "sell-out".  And yes, it is unfortunately my responsibility to look at straight people and tell them that I think gay activists are horrible people.  I have to distance myself from them because they unfairly claim to speak on my behalf.  They do not.  They merely make me look bad, and I do not forgive them.

That said, North Dallas Thirty, which of these three options represents the way that you feel about gay people:

1. You want the lives of gay people to get better
2. You want the lives of gay people to stay the same
3. You want the lives of gay people to get worse

Answer 1, 2, or 3.

282 Some peolpe feel that the rights of parental notification and victim notifications are more important than faggots having the right to call their joke of a relationship legal.  I will be damned if I allow some school to teach my child about gays and lesbians, I will teach my child about the Bible and what the Bible says about gays.

"Christian love" strikes again!

You love me AND you respect me!  Truly I must know of this Jesus the Christ so that I may have a Personal Relationship(TM) with him!

283 Yes, because that couldn't possibly be a lefty pretending to be what he thinks is a Christian.

284 >>Posted by: SuprKufr at November 05, 2008 05:57 PM (Xm81b)

I know your question wasn't directed at me, but if I replaced "gay people" with "women" I'm not sure that would affect my votes. Many of the initiatives that are supposedly pro-woman are offensive to me as a conservative American. Ultimately, I vote based on what I think is best for my country, not what personally benefits me.

If you do the same exercise and replace "gay people" with "black Americans" would you expect that to inform Michael Steele on how to vote or which party to support?

285 Yes, because that couldn't possibly be a lefty pretending to be what he thinks is a Christian.

I suppose you could have criticized Dang for writing, "Their misery is my entertainment.  Popcorn,  anyone?", basically saying that he revels in glee when he watches gays in misery.

You could have also criticized Bill for his "Christian love" response of "Sucked in faggots. You especially Gabriel.", basically saying he has no empathy at all and whatever pain Gabriel feels is merited.

But most of all, you could have criticized unknown for his very, very Christlike gay-bashing rant, even going as far to accuse him of inauthenticity.

Instead, you've chosen to criticize me for an alleged lack of insight.

Indeed, you truly, honestly love and support gay people.  May I convert to your religion?  I would like for you to witness to me.

286 I know your question wasn't directed at me, but if I replaced "gay people" with "women" I'm not sure that would affect my votes. Many of the initiatives that are supposedly pro-woman are offensive to me as a conservative American. Ultimately, I vote based on what I think is best for my country, not what personally benefits me.

If you do the same exercise and replace "gay people" with "black Americans" would you expect that to inform Michael Steele on how to vote or which party to support?

No, Y-not, my question was directed at North Dallas Thirty, but I notice your dodging of it all the same.

I agree with you that some "pro-woman" initiatives are really pro-radical-feminist claiming to speak for all women.  I know exactly how you feel when some unhinged radical claims to speak for you.

I, on the other hand, do not vote for "what I think is best for my country" since that's just a rhetorical cover for your own ideology, which I presume is "evangelical Christian" in your case.  I vote for what I think will further the cause of individual rights to life, liberty, and property.  Christians hate that shit because they enjoy telling other people what to do and punishing them if they fail to obey.

Incidentally, I think what I'm voting for will be best for our country, particularly if authoritarian douche-drinkers like Christians and Leftists are marginalized and humiliated.

As to your question, I don't know what you're talking about.

287 And your evidence for Solomon's kingdom collapsing from polygamy as opposed to God being upset that Solomon entered polygamous relations with women who worshipped other Gods and idols is... ?

I am unaware of any need to prove a statement I never made.

I never said that Solomon's kingdom collapsed (solely) because of polygamy.

I said it was one of the reasons.

288 >>Posted by: SuprKufr at November 05, 2008 06:25 PM

I'm not sure why you're flaming me, but it is a bad day for a lot of us so I guess you are upset or didn't read my posts. Not that it matters, but in 248, 276, 277 I made it really clear that I'm a conservative Catholic who is concerned about the the rise of the religious right in the Republican party.

I really was just trying to say that many of us vote as conservatives first and identity groups second.

289 *Hugs Gabe, I can't believe they haven't realized you were gay ages ago.   It's nice that you have some friends and supporters here.  Sorry about the rest.  Seems like you even got NDT trolling around. quite the accomplishment.

I was really hoping Prop 8 passed, I sent my money, talked to my friends, but it was always an up hill struggle. Arnold could have stuck his neck out a bit, and the dems could have maybe said something from time to time but it is what it is. 

I am tired of people not understanding that they made the word marriage important, and don't understand how many gays die just from loneliness and feeling cut of from the society that made them.   They all are so sure that being gay is a choice that it never occurs to them they could be wrong.  They haven't had family members steal inheritances, property, even homes, from gays and lesbians even in the face wills and contracts.  They have never had to deal with a nurse that won't let you in the hospital because they don't like gays.   how it's suppose to be my fault some how.   They'll take my money but won't let me hold hands in public or kiss my boyfriend at the airport.   They'll say this is to protect the children but I don't see them shoving Britney spears or Miley Cyrus in a burqha.   No they just don't want to accept that we are completely normal and have existed in every time and culture since recorded history.   Maybe if they thought about that they might realize the same god that they expect us to follow has killed millions of innocent gays that were just doing what their hormones programed them to do. 
  They struggle to hide the fact that true marriage was polygamous, and their holy ancestors didn't even care about gays since they were busy using gay prostitutes.  Marriage has been fluid and to ignore that fact and keep us out of it is a personal choice not a religious one. 

Your marriage or betrothment is real Gabe, and they are right that no ruling can take that away. 

290 I am unaware of any need to prove a statement I never made.

I never said that Solomon's kingdom collapsed (solely) because of polygamy.

I said it was one of the reasons.

RZ, way to dodge the issue.

So you acknowledge Solomon had polygamous relationships with foreign women that lead him to idolatry and worshipping other gods?

Ya think this might be a more plausible explanation considering all the other polygamous relationships among patriarchs and other notables in the bible?

291 I am unaware of any need to prove a statement I never made.

I never said that Solomon's kingdom collapsed (solely) because of polygamy.

I said it was one of the reasons.

Let's just put it bluntly, Christ-puppet.  Where does scripture state that polygamy is a sin?

I'm looking for something as clear-cut as this:

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death." Ex 31:15

/Have you ever worked on a Saturday, even once?

292 To those who love the institution of marriage -- one man and a woman -- and I do... thank the Romans!

293 SuprKufr You can play with NDT till the cows come in but it'll just get you mad.  He likes to think that his way to gay salvation is the only path and will tell you how normal he is and how he popped out as a fully functioning balanced gay at 18 has always been monogamous, (multiple times) bashes gay kids because they are at fault for turning america against him, and also that gays are "uniquely touched" with the ability to corrupt straight people and get them to do drugs and have promiscious sex.  
  To wrap him up you have to understand he was raised in a small town in Texas, to a catholic family.  He believes in original sin, and that gays must live chaste celibate lives to prove that they are better than straights.  To square the circle his naked pictures with his boyfriend whom he refuses to marry are floating around online some where.  To him gays are always the problem and if you don't apologize up front for them and wipe yourself for their sins you are guilty for everything they say.  Take for example previous comments in the thread, if you do not denounce them than he will say that you are supporting them.  He likes to move the goal line too if you box him in.   Enjoy!

294 That said, North Dallas Thirty, which of these three options represents the way that you feel about gay people:

1. You want the lives of gay people to get better
2. You want the lives of gay people to stay the same
3. You want the lives of gay people to get worse

Number 1, of course.

But, given what you said in your comment, wouldn't gays be better served by first stamping out the very things you rant against -- rampant drug abuse, irresponsible behavior, leftist lunatics who have equated being gay with the worst of warmed-over Marxism -- and THEN worrying about things like marriage?

The gay community views marriage one of two ways: either as some sort of magical panacea that will solve all of our problems, or as some kind of golden trophy whose sole purpose is to piss off the religious.

Neither way is a healthy behavior.

295

The state needs get out of the marriage business, period

Agreed. The government should have no business in marriages gay or straight.

296 I'd like to think that if marriage was truly the bedrock of civilization some here have portended, the government would be doing more to make it less of a joke.

The divorce rate... single parent homes... sham Vegas weddings... I'm sure if were to take those statistics as any indicator, we'd be looking off the edge of cliff down at the End Of Civilization As We Know It.

I am no proponent of gay marriage (just equal rights), but also don't see how allowing it would end the universe.

297

Tim

"Maybe if they thought about that they might realize the same god that they expect us to follow has killed millions of innocent gays that were just doing what their hormones programed them to do. "

God didn't kill them they made a choice to FUCK and they died just like innocent hetrosexuals and the most innocent of all babies.....but you spin that shit anyway that make you fucking happy and like familes don't steal shit from non gays when they die with or without wills.  etc.

By the way you whining bunch DOES it ever occur to you to be GRATEFUL to live in a country that doesn't fucking hang you? for being gay? does it? or do you just fucking whine all the time?  I don't hear you all in the fucking news screaming for the gays being hung in Iran and other Muslim countries and you know why that is? because you take for granted your freedoms in this country.

OBTH WE have a fucking SOCIALIST Government now....if you ladies want to keep whining about your loss go to a shrink IF the rest of you want to work on getting real conservatives elected in 2010 stop fucking around with this bullshit.

298 Christoph gets it...Monogamy is not a Jewish thing, it's not a Christian thing, it's a Roman thing. Support it if you wish, rant against the notion of polygamy if you wish, but don't cite "Judeo-Christian Morals" in doing so.

RZ, I know nobody and nothing short of a broadcast message from God Himself, will sway you from what you believe. I hope and pray that God will lead you one day to the place where you're confident enough in your faith to honestly question your beliefs.

299 Not speaking for Gabe here, but I'm going to reiterate my position on this - the only issue I have with using cocksucker as an insult is that there's nothing wrong with sucking cock.  I'm not offended by the term, I just don't see how it's an insult is all.

I prefer scum sucking ignorant fucktard myself. 

Posted by: alexthechick at November 05, 2008 12:27 PM (SHHaV)

  Alex, that's why I love you.

  Gabe, I love you too.  Not in THAT way, but the love that one moron has for another likeminded moron.  While I'm glad the proposition passed, I'm sorry that you're affected by it's passing.  I believe that words mean things, and the "marriage" brand has been diluted over the years by gays & straights alike.  I realize that this is more about affirmation than it is about recognition, but I wish that a compromise could be found on this issue.

300 Aww Jaded did you just threaten me? That's awfully christian of you, historically to boot!  Your swearing really shows a deep christian upbringing as well.    Your logic is impeccable to boot,  your invisible god killed people for doing what he programed them to do, or maybe the people who interpeded what the invisible sky god said had people kill them.  very smart god you have keeps his invisible hands clean. 

Oh I did protest the iranian hangings, and the saudi ones and the iraqi ones.  I even protested the tepid HRC when they tried to ignore it.  I even protested when army members beat their own comrade to death cause he might be gay.  But I suppose you supported that one didn't you. 

I don't take my freedoms for granted thats whyI wanted them codifiedso  some dumb fucks like you wouldn't try to steal them.

301 Damn it! The only thing I said yes to was 4 and 12. Well I suppose getting food from another state will be just as well. As for the 8 stuff here's my opinion: CA state Constitution is over 110 pages of junk not securing freedoms but imposing ridiculous restrictions. Why slap on another silly restriction? Homos can already have domestic partnerships, or whatever it's called, which is the same as marriage just a different word. So who cares? Uggh, but that doesn't make me one one millionth as angry as 4 getting shot down and the flood gates being opened for spending and business being regulated out of business! Even the local stuff I voted no on passed through more city spending and taxes, huzzah!

302 Ya know what?  Fuck em all, Gabriel.  You've got a life, and someone who loves you.  I sure as fuck didn't ask for society's imprimatur on my more conventional relationship.  (Have you seen the fucking tax difference).  Whether I agree with the idea of "gay marriage" or not, live your life, love your partner, and fuck the rest of 'em, including me and my opinions.  It's called Liberty, and it's precious.

For you haters, fuck you.  Leave the moron alone.  And those of you putting a religious swing on this, fuck you doubly.  You obviously haven't learned Christ's message of love.  Whatever Gabriel's faults, or the faults you perceive in him, you are called to love him.  Doubly so since he's a fucking moron. 

Now leave the homo alone.

303 Oh, 1A didn't pass I am happier.

304 Noooo... I am the biggest looser this year!

305

Well Tim that is how silly you are....did you think every conservative is a Christian? you would be wrong....I have a God but I don't buy into organized religion....how intellectually dishonest of you to paint us all with one brush stroke, I bet you hate that yourself. I also bet that you ASSUME that because I use God in a sentence I MUST be a Christian....but I know this Christians would never treat you like a Muslim would and I repeat again when you all start using your loud voices to create some attention to gays being hung in Muslims countries and feminists start using their pulpit to scream about women being killed and beaten in Muslim countries perhaps the American people will take you all more seriously....your little whining at how America is a terrible place because you don't get to marry is silly on the face of it.

Well how big of you to go after the military when one of them beat a gay did you speak up when those officers were fragged too or are you a one trick pony?

OBTW I apologize for my french today I don't ususally express such venom BUT when our government has been handed over to a bunch of Socialists and I see a bunch a girls whining about losing a proposition well I get a little miffed.

We will see how The One works out for you all...becuase he was right with Mccain on no gay marriage.....If you can't win with liberals how are you ever going to get the right?  You know how? by stopping the attempt to subvert the people's vote by getting liberal judges to overturn them.  One other way is to STOP trying to brainwash kindergartners to your way of living....they will accept you based on the way that you live not by shoving it down the throats of children and pissing their parents off in the process.....children are funny that way! 

 

 

306 You have much truth in that last statement, Jaded. There were lots of motivated little kiddos this year. Flashy advertisements, I want I get mentalities, it's really quite annoying and now it's dangerous. You and I know the math they didn't dominate but they did play a role in demoralizing the not just the Republican base, the Conservative base but National base. A vast majority of us hold the ideals of our forefathers which offers more liberty and freedom but require individual diligence. This ideal does get ebbed but I believe the coming disasters will be a harsh wake up call for irresponsible. We just got started Obama and his group came in on the wave of national torment he played part in creating.

307 Never fear, conservatives. Even if gay marriage was legalized and taught in schools, you could still teach your children that it's wrong. Only a small percentage of you would have your gay children grow up to resent you.

308

If gay marriage is leaglized there is no need to teach children anything...why do these groups who want this and that always go after the children...because the goal is to indoctrinate them....stop that bullshit and act the adults you purport to be and leave people's children alone...it is up to the parents to have the conversation with their children about sex when they feel the time is right.

It was my choice to have that conversation with my son's and with their father when we felt they were ready at about the age of 9 but it was our choice....when you fuck around with people's chidren you negate whatever you are trying to accomplish...why do you think so many people homeschool their children? and it ain't a religious thing.....they are sick of social issue's being taught instead of reading, writing and arithmatic....if they stopped trying to indoctrinate children in school perhaps they would have time for PR and obesity would no longer be an issue....elementary school is NOT the place for the SOCIAL issue's to be taught or debated...Jr High at the earliest....and again UP TO THE PARENTS.....or you all can languish in the wilderness with conservatives.

309 that should be PE!

310 Uh just to clarify Jaded. State judges decided in the State Constitution marriage is applicable to homo and heterosexuals the same. 8 is an amendment to counter that judgment. There was an attempt to create an amendment roughly 5 years ago to solidify gay marriage rights. I wouldn't vote for either ever. "Why?" you may ask because homos can get "civil unions" which are the same. It is also evident in the wording of the State Constitution that there is no definition for sexuality. So the judges followed the constitution. There are 110 pages of restrictions in the CA state constitution why would any one support further degrading and obstruficating our freedoms and rights?

311 Just to clairfy a judge can find anything they want in the constitution if they are looking for it.....hell the Supreme court found a right to snuff out the lives of over 40 million children since 1973.....but there is no such right but that didn't stop them.

312 No bother, I can't argue for Roe vs Wade but I guess I am splitting hairs when I say I believe in state rights over federal govt controlling every aspect of ones life. But hey but both you and I voted yes on 4, right? Anyhow, I implied I read the constitution and I support the judges decision.

313 ugh... Chickens... really now?  All you damn tree-hugging illuminati hippies want to go make sure that the chickens have a nice cage before being slaughtered...  They were born to be eaten!  Happy chickens taste just as good as sad ones.

314 In the ancient world, prostitution, promiscuity, and multiple relationships with men,women, children [animals?] were pretty much the norm---for ancient men. There was plenty of murder and human sacrifice as well. ::::::Christian marriage was a revolutionary concept in its day because it was designed to protect the women and children against murder, abandonment, destitution, and devastating sexual diseases. :::::Marriage rules also were designed to protect the state for the same reasons. Early gov'ts were not competent in social services ; all that went to the Church, which had to punch up the unattractive marriage obligation with some hellfire and brimstone to keep men in line, and to cultivate a sacred sense of duty, during very perilous, chaotic times. :::::None of this has to do with love or romance. The marriage institution has everything to do with health, public safety, public order, and societal stability ..:::::So, cheer up Gabe, your heart is protected with your commitment. Be happy with it. Marriage, in the traditional sense, is a whole 'nother country. You don't need to go there.

315 North Dallas Thirty wrote:

But, given what you said in your comment, wouldn't gays be better served by first stamping out the very things you rant against -- rampant drug abuse, irresponsible behavior, leftist lunatics who have equated being gay with the worst of warmed-over Marxism -- and THEN worrying about things like marriage?

I totally, totally mis-read you.  I was in "faith destroyer" mode and when I perceived you attacking gay I had you pegged as a Christ-puppet.

In answer to your question, gays would be best served by integrating into straight society instead of sequestering themselves into "separate but equal" gay ghettos.  There are two obstacles to this:

1. The intense hatred that many Christians (including blacks) feel for gay people
2. The desire to preserve a "gay culture" which is nothing but superficiality, frivolousness, and hedonism

The good news is that #1 is solving itself, since most of the Christlike gay-bashers are old and they are dying off.  #2 will take a lot more work, and I have been punished for daring to criticize "gay culture".  I am keenly aware of how hateful some gay people can be toward those who dare stray off the plantation.

As far as marriage goes, I do not think the state has any business in defining "magic" relationships for anyone, gay or straight.  The sole purpose in straight people wanting to "preserve traditional marriage" is to keep gay people in an inferior position for the sake of appeasing bullshit Christian sensibilities.  All other reasons for "preserving traditional marriage" are bullshit.

316 If gay marriage is leaglized there is no need to teach children anything...why do these groups who want this and that always go after the children...because the goal is to indoctrinate them....stop that bullshit and act the adults you purport to be and leave people's children alone...it is up to the parents to have the conversation with their children about sex when they feel the time is right.

It does NOT amaze me that Christians lie.  Everyone knows that Christians are superb and polished liars.  It amazes me that Christ-puppets get away with this particular line of bullshit that you've just spewed here and has been spewed many times recently.

The reason that you're upset is because schools are teaching you that being gay is acceptable, and you feel like that infringes on your religious right to teach your children that gay people are deviants, perverts, and general garbage, which is in accordance with your religion.  You have no problem teaching your kids about sex as long as it can be done in a way that completely destroys gay people in the mind of your child.

Why do you bear false witness?

/Because you don't want Christianity to look bad to "the world", but you're not willing to give up on hating gays yet.  Hating gays is a very important part of your faith.

317 You're so tolerant suprkufr. You sound just like the so called "Christ-puppets" you're constantly whining about.

318 You're so tolerant suprkufr. You sound just like the so called "Christ-puppets" you're constantly whining about.

I am completely intolerant of Christ-puppets and their evil, bullshit religion just as they are completely intolerant of me.  Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth!  Christians started this fight.  And I will not stop mocking them and their evil, bullshit religion until they stop hating gays.  Period.

Cheer up, evil and bullshitty as your religion is, it still isn't as evil or as bullshitty as Islam(e).

319 isn't it funny that they all fall back to the "defend the children" argument.  Which is ridiculous in it's own rights. 
There is the,"I need to teach them at the right time and place".  A frivolous argument, after all kids see things all the time, and you ahve no control in the first place.  deciding to be a reactive parent instead of a proactive parent is a personal choice and I see no reason why society has to play pretend with your family because you want to live in a 1950 sitcom. 
  Children will be turned gay meme is usually next, it really only affects folk who believe that being gay is catchy, All I can say to that is it really isn't!!  Sure sex is nice but the thing that seperates gays and straights is the fact that gays can only really emotionally bond completely with the same sex.  Straights will never have that problem.  So even if they find out that they like guys going down on them more than thier wives, they still won't end up gay.  
  The problem most religious folk have is that they can't accept that gays are normal for the human species.  Which is really just willful indifference to all scientific and historical fact.  GAYS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AROUND. 

Now lets compare that to something else that is an oddity but umbiquitous as well.  Twins, now some cultures kill twins because they think they are evil, some cultures praise twins because they think they are blessed, and some cultures just see it as normal.   Looking at the data a biologist would say, "because twins are found in all tribes and subsets of humanity, they must be normal.   Religious people aren't looking at the facts and fall back on a ancient texts that tell them not to eat pork and shellfish.   Of course it also tells them to stone women if they get raped in a city.   But I digress,  if gays are found on every continent, and every country and every culture, wouldn't the evidence at least suggest a biological or natural reason?   

320 You're so tolerant suprkufr. You sound just like the so called "Christ-puppets" you're constantly whining about.

While a lot of the most decent people I know are Christians, it certainly does seem rich to be on him for opposing and being angry about a religion that tells him he's an abomination to the Lord, will be tortured and burned in hell throughout eternity (which one thinks about it, is worse than torturing and burning someone in hell for a finite time on Earth), etc., for giving and receiving orgasms from a consenting adult.

Christians and the Jewish religion that proceded it (again, I love many Jews) certainly started it, not suprkufr.

321 Follow-up: He even is intellectually honest (and accurate) to note that Islam as its practiced today is worse.

322 Religious Zealot said:
-------------------
"'Santos, imagine for a minute that your neighbors held a vote and decided that your marriage was null and void.'

"My neighbors could say anything they want about my marriage...

"...and it wouldn't change one darn thing about my relationship with my wife."
--------------------
If your marriage was invalidated by popular vote, neither you nor your spouse could collect the pension or social security benefits of the other--something often important for seniors who have limited sources of income.

If your marriage was invalidated by popular vote, and your spouse died, you would have no right to the body in order to bury or cremate or whatever the two of you have decided should happen after death.

If your marriage was invalidated by popular vote, your spouse could be compelled to testify against you in a court of law.

If your spouse was a foreign national, they would not be accorded the same rights of immigration or right to work, and you would be forced to choose to either divorce your spouse in order to live in your home country or be compelled to live abroad in order to stay together.

Gay couples are *married* in every sense of the word that matters to civic life. What they lack in most states is the *legal protections* that accompany that status. Equality is what is being sought. Gay couples deserve the same legal protection for their marriages as their straight siblings enjoy.

Marriage is not something that can or should be reduced to a particular configuration of genitals, which is what the ridiculous "definition" stance does. Calling some people's marriages "civil unions" or "domestic partnerships" or anything else than marriage is simply re-creating a "coloreds-only water fountain" for gay citizens. And it's based in the same sentiments that created them a century ago.

323

And here we see the myth of "compassionate conservatives" destroyed

 

They hate you.  All they care about is your orientation, not your politics.  They're lizard brained tribalists

324 I don't understand how Christians can justify taking away rights as the godly thing  to do. Also from the civil state side of things, what is the difference between a gay marrying and Mormons marrying, or an interracial couple marrying? There really isn't any.
Civil rights is a fight, and when it comes to convincing some of the far right Christians that 1200 civil rights being denied is a BIG FUCKING DEAL, and that who I get married to shouldn't affect their lives or their marriages or their view of America it's going to be a war.

I gave you a moment of silence, and as a straight Christian, I'm appalled at the actions of people working in Jesus' name. It's immoral, and it's pretty wrong to persecute people based on a doctrine you don't even follow to the same letter you're imposing on others. Cherry picking from the bible must be pretty fucking easy if it supports your interests. Who knows what happened to love thy neighbor?

325 we don't want or need deviants in the republican party

326 "I don't understand how Christians can justify taking away rights as the godly thing  to do."

The Bible says so. If you can't reason at all, why are you commenting? Also, why lead with a sentence that makes you look like an idiot?

"what is the difference between a gay marrying and Mormons marrying, or an interracial couple marrying? There really isn't any."

Well, because gender isn't the same as color. Try mating two people of the same sex and report back to me in 9 months to tell me the results.

"...when it comes to convincing some of the far right Christians that 1200 civil rights being denied is a BIG FUCKING DEAL..."

Are you, actually, insane? Autistic, perhaps? English as a second language? "1200 civil rights" ??

"...it's going to be a war."

Kuckoo! Say it after me: "ballot initiative".

Your last paragraph makes sense emotionally. Certainly it has little to do with the Bible as it's written, yet I have no quarrel with your conclusion. Unfortunately, before writing this last paragraph, which would have stood on its own, you wrote the one before it making you look both stupid and crazy.

EPIC FAIL.

327 Frank B, you're just an asshole. I'd take Sara's company any day.

328 The igorant flatlanders who got prop 2 passed then wonder why their price for chicken gose up and if the wonder whos to blame they should look in a mirror.we passed prop 8 and we told those the judges of the imperial stupid court of kalifornia to BLOW IT OUT YOUR NOSES

329 Frank, considering some of those deviants (more than you would probably imagine, and well more than you'd like to admit) actually voted for McCain, and he still lost, I'd say the Republican could actually stand opening up to some "deviants" if they plan on winning any elections in the near future.

330 Yeah, uh, Gabe? You're not going to find much sympathy here. Republicans aren't traditionally known for being compassionate towards others' hurts--that's been the domain of the fluffy liberal crowd. I'm just sayin'. They'll turn on you fast as anything.

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Posted by: سيف at March 08, 2009 04:01 AM (pfpIP)

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مواقيت الحج مناسك الحج والعمرة فضائل الحج والعمرة العشر الأواخر سلوكيات خاطئة من ذاكرة رمضان أحكام المرآة في رمضان أحاديث رمضانية وقفات مع الصائمين أدعية مأثورة ليلة القدر فضائل رمضانية رمضان فرصة للتغيير رسائل رمضانية صحتك في رمضان القرآن الكريم بصوت الشيخ : ابو بكر الشاطري, احمد العجمي, ابراهيم عسيري, ادريس ابكر, توفيق الصايغ, خالد الجليل, خالد القحطاني, سامي الحسن, سعود الغامدي, سعود الشريم, سهل ياسين, شيرزاد طاهر, صلاح البدير, صلاح بو خاطر, عبدالباسط عبدالصمد, عبدالرحمن السديس, عبدالله المطرود, عبدالله عواد الجهني, عبدالمحسن الحارثي, عبدالهادي كناكري, عبدالوالي الاركاني, علي عبدالرحمن الحذيفي, علي جابر, فارس عباد, فهد الكندري, ماهر المعيقلي, محمد البراك, محمد ايوب, محمد جبريل, محمد صديق المنشاوي, مشاري العفاسي, ناصر القطامي, ياسر الدوسري, منصور الزهراني, لافي العوني, محمد عبدالكريم, محمد اللحيدان, وليد الدليمي, هاني الرفاعي , محمد الحصرياكواد الألوان مؤثرات الفاره اكواد الحمايه مؤثرات على النصوص اكواد ادوات للمواقع اكواد العاب بالجافا نوافذ تفتح بشكل تلقائي الأعلانات ومؤثرات الصور 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السيارات, شركات ووكالات, صحافة واعلام, صحف عربية, إذاعة وتلفزيون, التربية والتعليم, الثقافة الجنسيه, الأدب والشعر والفنون, جامعات وكليات ومعاهد, عالم الرياضة , اللاعبين ومشاهير الرياضة, أندية عربية وعالمية, المنتديات| حجز فنادق مجلة الفنادق  تأجير السيارات حجز الفنادق مجلة الفنادق  فنادق الشرق الأوسطفنادق اوروبا فنادق اسيا فنادق افريقيا مواقع حجز تذاكر طيران  خطوط الطيران العربية مواقع حجز فنادق فنادق الجزر خدمات سياحيه متفرقة | دليل مواقع, دليل مواقع فنادق, دليل مواقع سياحه, شقق الشارقة الفندقية, شقق دبي الفندقية, شقق الكويت الفندقية, شقق الدوحة الفندقية, شقق البحرين الفندقية, شقق ماليزيا الفندقية, شقق ابوضبي الفندقية, شقق فندقية باريس, شق برشلونه الفندقيه, شقق لندن الفندقيه,فنادق مكة| فنادق البحرين | فنادق دبي |فنادق شرم الشيخ | فنادق لندن  | فنادق باريس | فنادق بيروت |فنادق فيينا | فنادق تركيا| فنادق ميونيخ | فنادق أخرىفنادق دبي |فنادق شرم الشيخ | فنادق لندن | فنادق الكويت | فنادق الرياض | فنادق زي لامسي | فنادق باريس | منتدى زين للبرامج|  فنادق بيروت |فنادق فيينا | فنادق تركيا  Egypt| Sharm El Sheikh| Saudi Arabia | Kuwait| UAE| Oman | Bahrain | Morocco | Lebanon | France | Paris| USA| Germany | Italy |منتدى البرامج العام , منتدى البرامج المشروحه ، منتدى برامج الحمايه ، منتدى البرامج الدينيه ، برامج كمبيوتر خاصه بالجوالات ، منتدى برامج الجوال , العاب , ثيمات ، منتدى البرامج العربية والمعربة منتدى تطوير المواقع والمنتديات ، منتدى ملحقات التصميم دروس , فلاتر , خطوط , خامات ، منتدى صوت القرآن الكريم , اناشيد اسلاميه , الفيديو والمرئيات  , التلاوات القرآنية ، منتدى العاب الفيديو الكامله psp , online , GTA ، خدمات ( RSS ) للمواقع العربية ، منتدى عالم المحادثه chat , yahoo , hotmail , msn | الموقع الرسمي للشاعر جابر غازي البطحي المطيري| موقع الشاعر|  منتدى جابر غازي البطحي| ملتقى جابر غازياستيديو جابر غازي قصائد جابر غازي النصيه منتدى همس القوافي منتدى الخواطر والنثرمنتدى القصص والروايات منتدى الصوتيات والفيديو الشعري منتدى الهواتف النقالة برامج الكمبيوتر , توبيكات ماسنجر< span> منتدى التصاميم والجرافيكس| الحمادين | منتدى الحمادين | نخبة الحمادين | منتديات الحمادين | موقع الحمادين | القز نت | منتدى القز نت | دليل القز نت | منتديات

Posted by: سيف at March 08, 2009 04:02 AM (pfpIP)

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شات دردشة القز كويت قز | منتدى القز | دليل مواقع كويت قز | الكعبه | التسجيلات الاسلاميه | القران الكريم | شات بنات الكويت  | منتدى بنات الكويت | شات كويتيات | منتدى كويتيات | دليل مواقع القز الكويتي | فيديو يوتيوب رياضي  | مقاطع يوتيوب المفضلة - مقاطع اغاني فيديو كليب يوتيوب , فيديو يوتيوب مضحك , يوتيوب رقص , يوتيوب مسلسلات ومقاطع منوعة - احلى يوتيوب | صحف كويتية | صدى الملاعب | معلومات عامه | دليل الادله | شات دردشه كتابيه كويت القز 777 | شات دردشة صوتية كويت القز 25  | العاب فلاش , بنات مكياج باربي | القران الكريم | اكواد جافا - كود جافا java | هواتف الخدمات  | رسائل رومانسية رسائل عشاق رسائل حب رسائل عتاب رسائل هجران  | مسجات رسائل اسلاميه , رسايل دينيه  | مسجات حب رسائل وغرام رسايل غزل  | مسجات شوق رسائل وله رسايل اقراب | مسجات وداع رسائل فراق رسايل غياب | مسجات مدح , رسايل مهايط , مرجله | مسجات الاعياد , رسائل عيد حب , رسايل الاضحى الفطر | مسجات متنوعه | مسجات نكت , مقالب , رسايل ضحك , عبط | مسجات نكت , مقالب , رسايل ضحك , عبط | شات زين كام صوتي كتابي دردشه | منتدى دردشة زين للبرامج

فنادق البرتغال Portugal, فنادق هيلتون, حجز فنادق جواله للسياحه والسفر, جزيرة راتشا في تايلاند‎ , فنادق الشارجة, صور المانيا, الخطوط الجويه أوغندا إيجل تنزانيا أوغندا , طيران العربية, الخطوط الجويه ايسلاندا, صور جمال المغرب, الخطوط المتحدة United, الخطوط الجويه إكسبرس جنوب افريقيا, فنادق تدمر - سوريا, الخطوط الجويه المملكة المتحدة, فنادق Tambov تامبوف, صور الطبيعة في جمهورية سلوفاكيا , خطوط واير ديكان Air Deccan الهنديه, فنادق المدينة المنوره, فنادق الفلبين Philippines, الخطوط البريطانية British Airways, فنادق Izmir إزمير, حجوزات فنادق, فنادق طاجكستان Tajikistan, فنادق Vladimir فلاديمير, فنادق الجبل الأسود , مونتينيغرو Montenegro, الخطوط الجويه ساف اير جنوب افريقيا, الخطوط الجويه العمانيه - طيران عمان, فنادق تايوان Taiwan, الخطوط الجويه جمهورية التشيك, فنادق باريس, فنادق كازاخستان Kazakhstan, الخطوط الجويه كورت اير جنوب أفريقيا, فنادق بورما Burma , ميانمار Myanmar, فنادق جزر المالديف, فنادق نيبال Nepal, الخطوط الجويه ناشيونال ايرويز جنوب افريقيا, - ماليزيا, صور فانوكر غرب كندا, فنادق غابون gabon, صور مدريد , فندق queen elzabith بتركيا شي خيالي , فنادق جمهورية أذربيجان Azerbaijan, فنادق اندونوسيا Indonesia, صور لجمهورية بولندا ( Polska ) , خطوك لان LAN الهند, فنادق النيجر Niger, فنادق ارمينيا Armenia, فنادق اوزباكستان Uzbekistan, صور كندا, فنادق رواندا Rwanda, الخطوط الجويه السويد, فنادق الصين China, فنادق قبرص لارنكا, فنادق Istanbul اسطنبول, الخطوط الفرنسية Air France, الخطوط الجويه بيل فيو ايرلاينز نيجيريا, صور شوارع باريس ليلا, فنادق كمبوديا Cambodia, فنادق دولة East Timor, الخطوط الايطالية Alitalia , شقق البارون الفندقية دبي, فنادق الهند India, مدينه الثلج الأصفر , فنادق جمهورية بتسوانا BOTSWANA, فنادق رومانيا Romania, فنادق البكيرية Bukayriah, فنادق الدمام Dammam, الخطوط الجويه السودانيه, صور فندق ميكي ماوس, طيران سما, الخطوط الجويه عبر المحيط, الخطوط الجويه هولندا, الخطوط الجويه اليونان, فنادق روما - ايطاليا, صور جدار الصين الرائعة , طيران ناس, الخطوط الجوية القطرية, الخطوط الجويه ناشيونال افيشن مصر, فنادق Turkmenistan تركمنستان, فنادق تايلاند Thailand, فنادق الكويت, صور بورا اجمل الجزر الاستوائيه, الخطوط الجويه اير سيشيل سيشيل, الخطوط الجويه تركيا, الخطوط الجويه بريسيشن سيرفيسيس تنزانيا, فنادق بيروت, فنادق هولندا Netherlands, فنادق الهفوف Al Hofuf, الخطوط الجويه البرتغال, فنادق راس الخيمة, فنادق مالي المالديف , فندق باورز باريس Powers, الخطوط النمساوية Austrian, حجوزات فندق.كوم, الخطوط الجويه ايرويز جنوب افريقيا, طيران الامارات Emirates emirates air, فنادق روسيا البيضاء Belarus, طيران الخليج البحرين, الخطوط الجويه فرنسا, فنادق كارجستان Kyrgyzstan, فنادق الجبيل Jubail, طيران الجزيرة, الخطوط الجويه المصريه, صور القاهرة, الخطوط الجوية الهندية Air India الهند, فنادق الخبر, فنادق انغولا Angola, حديقة الازهر - جنه فى قلب القاهره ( صور ), فنادق بوتان Bhutan, فنادق جمهورية البانيا Albania, صور فرنسا, فنادق جمهورية النمسا Austria, طيران تونس, الخطوط الجويه كونتراكتورز ايرلندا , Africana Hotel Alexandria Egypt - فندق أفريقيا, فنادق مكة, الخطوط الجويه السعودية, فنادق سيريلانكا Sri Lanka, صور رائعة من مصر, مطعم في اسطنبول بوسط البحر, فنادق صلاله, صور دجلة و النيل, الخطوط الجويه دولوميتي ايطاليا, فنادق ايرلندا Ireland, فنادق Moscow موسكو, فنادق الاحساء Al Ahsa, فنادق لاووس Laos, الخطوط الجويه سلوفانيا, فنادق روسيا Russia, الخطوط الجوية الكويتية, فنادق المانيا Germany, - ماليزيا, صور madrid the capital of spain, الخطوط الجويه اير افريكا ابيد جان, الخطوط الجويه اير موريشيز موريشيز, فنادق الظهران Dhahran, الخطوط الجويه اير زامبيا زامبيا, الخطوط الجويه ناشيون وايد ايرلاينز جنوب افريقيا, فنادق هيلتون, طيران الامارات, فنادق قطر, الخطوط الجويه اوكرانيا, صور فندق أتلانتس دبي , الخطوط الجويه ايطاليا, فنادق جراند باي موريشوس Grand Baie, فنادق خميس مشيط Khamis Mushayt, الخطوط الجويه الملكيه المغربيه, فنادق حلب - سوريا, كورال بوتيك للشقق الفندقي دبي, الخطوط الجويه المملكة المتحدة, فنادق بروناي Brunei Darussalam, فنادق الطائف Taif, فنادق لندن, تأجير السيارات مباشرة, صور البرازيل, فنادق جونيه, الخطوط الجويه اير مدغشقر مدغشقر , الخطوط الجويه كازاخستان, العربيه للطيران بالشارقه, فندق لا بيلمونت باريس Belmont , خطوط انديان ايرلانز Indian Airlines الهنديه, فنادق جمهورية غامبيا gambia, الخطوط الجويه اكسبرس جنوب افريقيا, فنادق بلجيكا Belgium, فنادق كومو - ايطاليا, صور اسطنبول الرائعة , حجز فنادق مراكش, الخطوط الجويه جنوب افريقيا, الخطوط الجويه لينجس ايرلندا, الخطوط الجويه إكسبرس ايرلندا, الخطوط الجويه سيتي كونيكشن ايرلاينز بروندي, الخطوط الجويه شارتر جنوب افريقيا, فنادق ابها Abha, مدينة باونتي, فنادق مدينة الخبر Khobar, فنادق الجزائر algeria, شقق ستار ميترو البرشه, فنادق بنغلاديش Bangladesh, فنادق بريده Buraydah, فنادق دمشق- سوريا, فنادق منغولا Mongolia, فنادق دبي, الخطوط الجويه روسيا, الخطوط الجويه الأمريكية American, فنادق جمهورية بنين Benin, فنادق نجران Najran, فنادق بوكت, فنادق سنغافورا Singapore, صور اكبر واجمل مول في العالم, فنادق إمارة اندوروا Andorra, خطوط سبايس جيت SpiceJet الهنديه, الخطوط الجويه اسبانيا, الخطوط الاسبانية Iberia, الخطوط الجويه اير زامبيا زامبيا, الخطوط الجويه غانا, جزيرة تيومان شرق ماليزيا ، Tioman Island, خطوط واير سحارى Air Sahara الهنديه, فنادق ماليزيا Malaysia, الخطوط الجويه مصر, فنادق النرويج Norway, خطوط جو اير GoAir الهنديه, فنادق ينبع Yanbu, شقق ليجاسي الفندقية, الخطوط الأيرلندية Aer Lingus, صور البرتغال سحر الاطلسي, فنادق جده Jeddah, الخطوط الجويه القطريه, الخطوط الجويه السعوديه, الخطوط الجويه ليتوانيا, الخطوط الجويه التونسيه, الخطوط الجويه اثيوبيان ايرلاينز اثيوبيا, الخطوط الجويه كوم اير جنوب أفريقيا, فنادق اليابان Japan, فنادق Pakistan باكستان, فنادق جزيرة موريشوس Mauritius, فنادق هوليداي إن, حجوزات فنادق- سفريات.كوم, شقق نجد الفندقية دبي, فنادق جمهورية اليونان Greece, الخطوط الجويه الاماراتيه, فنادق Turkey تركيا, فنادق جمهورية غانا Republic of Ghana, الخطوط الجويه الفلسطينيه, فنادق جورجيا Georgia, فنادق ايسلندا Iceland, تعرفو على اطول واضخم برج بالعالم اليابان , فنادق بتايا, خطوط طيران الخليج, فنادق حفر الباطن Hafr Al-Batin, فنادق افغانستان Afghanistan, الخطوط الجويه المصرية, فنادق هنغاريا Hungary, جزر موريشيوس اجمل الجزر في العالم , فنادق فيتنام Vietnam, الخطوط الجويه لاتفيا, الخطوط الجويه لكسور البرتغال , فنادق البحرين, طيران الشرق الأوسط لبنان, الخطوط الجويه ايرلندا, فنادق ميلان - ايطاليا, الخطوط الجويه البريطانية, صور رائعة من باريس فرنسا, فنادق كوريا الجنوبية South Korea, فنادق الرياض, فنادق نيجيريا nigeria, حجز فنادق انتر لاكن سويسرا, فنادق بولندا Poland, خطوط جيت ايروايز Jet Airways الهنديه, خطوط طيران الشرق الاوسط بلبنان, صور ايطاليا, فنادق اللاذقية - سوريا, مدينة ايفران بالمغرب الملقبة بسويسرا الصغيرة , خطوط كينج فيشر Kingfisher الهنديه,

Posted by: سيف at March 08, 2009 04:03 AM (pfpIP)

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