1 You are in a twisty maze of blockquotes, all alike.

2 Well, those BO effigy wasn't hung on private property and the two guys allegedly stole the materials to make it.

3 I think the hanging in effigy of Barack Obama is every bit as reprehensible as the one of Sarah Palin. Both should be constitutionally protected free speech however provided they don't rise to the level of a threat.

4 Oh, if it's not too late, Happy Halloween!

5

Yes, because innocent women have never been hanged here in America during bouts of rampant fear mongering *coughsalemcough*.

There is the public/private aspect, and if they really did steal the materials then that's theft.  But overall?  What's good for the goose is good for the fucking gander.  If it's okay to hang an effigy of Palin and depict McCain in a fiery death, then it should be equally as okay to hang an effigy of Obama.  I'm sorry, I'm not backing down on that.  This is fucking America, you do NOT have the right to not be offended, motherfuckers.

6 I agree with what you wrote, flashoverride, although I wouldn't hang out with someone who would do either. Right to do doesn't mean social approval to do. I believe they're all knuckleheads and should be publicly shamed. But not imprisoned.

7 Unless they stole materials... then, yep, charge them, but only for that.

8

Christoph,

What they did was point out the inequity of the system.  These two guys did it specifically in reference to the Palin thing, and I understand their motivation, although their decision making was probably alchohol fueled.

But in the end, they have a valid point:  Why will they be investigated for a "hate crime" while the folks in West Hollywood get a pass?

In a vacuum, I'd say it was stupid.  In light of current events, I'm inclined to lean more towards their side.

9

Oh and Christoph - not to be a dick, but "Right to do doesn't mean social approval to do"?

Right trumps social approval.  Luckily for us we don't base our rights on "social approval".  Sometimes the right thing isn't popular, and when you preserve those rights for people you don't agree with, you preserve them for yourself.  If we allow these rights to become one-sided, then they effectively stop being rights and start being privileges.

The Black Panthers had a right to march.  The moonbats, even here in my lovely Seattle, have the right to peaceably assemble for a redress of grievances, even if I *know* they are full of shit.  When I am not afforded the same rights, they cease to be rights.  Wish I could be more eloquent, but the PBRs are fucking me up.

10 Upon actual reading:

"had asked members of a University of Kentucky fraternity for items to make the effigy but did not tell the fraternity members why they wanted them,"

That certainly doesn't sound like theft. These men should be freed at once. They should not get a criminal record over this. Public ridicule and voluntary social ostrazation is enough. It is absolutely crazy that this is a crime, but a hanging effigy of Sarah Palin and burning effigy of John McCain isn't.

Further, look at this. Why is that not a crime if an effigy of Senator Obama is?

I AM offended when decent conservatives are killed in effigy. Especially when they are threatened with and targeted for actual death. I understand why an effigy of Obama is offensive. But the double standard is wrong.

11 "Right trumps social approval."

I agree. I thought I made that point.

12

You just had to know this was coming. The KY guys wil get off but it will cost them a few thousand bucks in fees, whereas the CA dipweeds were never charged at all.

That is the inequity of the damn thing.

13 Unless they were arrested for ancillary charges, I think the dumbshits should sue for false arrest.

14 Oh and let us not forget the irony that all of the femi-nazis will surely notice.

Hunter Bush.

You know, Hunt-her Bush.

15 "In a vacuum, I'd say it was stupid.  In light of current events, I'm inclined to lean more towards their side."

If they were doing it to protest the Palin effigy, I'd understand. Getting arrested highlights their point. I'm still not going to defend killing in effigy though. I've always disapproved of it.

16 Bluegrass Community and Technical College. That's code for KKK

17 Off topic, but the Gallup traditional model daily tracking poll shows another 1 point gain for Obama and loss for McCain. It's now 50-45% from 49-46% yesterday. Rasmussen had a 2 point break for Obama trending the same way.

Okay, it's winnable and you must get out the vote. I was one of the people who urged Ace to fight on for McCain after the debate... when Ace was going to focus on the Congress because McCain didn't focus on Ace's preferred issue.

But you people who think McCain will definitely win this, like the race is over... are you smoking crack?

18 I don't really have a problem with desecrating any representation of BO, as long as it's not hanging from a rope because of the obvious historical implications.

19

When this country was young, and people knew what the Constitution was all about, effigy hanging & burning was pretty darn common and accepted political speech.  The idea that this act, however mildly offensive, might warrant arrest is absurd.  It's not reasonable to classify this as threatening a politician.  It's a long standing cultural feature used to express contempt and disgust, which Obie certainly warrants due to his treason and law breaking.  That said, the two hooligans were probably safer under arrest - the moonbat mob would hang them litterally for their defiant gesture. 

As for ugly historical events that this brings to mind, how long do we have to keep walking on egg shells?  Over-sensitivity only encourages "poor-me" thinking and greivance mongering.  Do we still have to assume that every attack on a non-white politician is race hate?

 

20 Must-read post: Three things the Obamedia will do to depress Republican turnout and help Obama (Plus the Eeyores and how that's the one thing that could let obama win)

Oh my gosh those guys (yes, guys) at HillBuzz can really write. Funny as heck.

21

I don't really have a problem with desecrating any representation of BO, as long as it's not hanging from a rope because of the obvious historical implications.

 

You see; I have a problem with all the broo-haha over lynching BS to begin with. This is another one of those things that the race-mongers have added to their arsenal of “hate thought” without regard to actual facts. The fact is that there are more blacks killed every year in New Orleans or Detroit by blacks that were ever actually lynched in a decade of lynching. In addition, lynching was not confined to blacks.

 

If you go back and look at a lot of the lynching that occurred you will find that in a lot of cases they arose out of the fact or perception that authorities were not enforcing the LAW.  When the general population of “Joe the Plumbers” got the idea that the local elites were not adequately enforcing the law they formed “committees of vigilance”. Following that, the lynching occurred.

 

So the bottom line is this lynching BS is just another false flag operation drudged up by the race baiters to line their pockets. There ARE NO OBVIOUS HISTORICAL IMPLICATIONS unless your historical education is from comic books and TV.

22 Vic, that's nonsense. Obviously blacks were lynched and it's an emotionally charged issue. To bring a people in chains from another continent, ripping them from their families forever, to a new land where many died on the way and others were, well, sold into bondage, slavery, sex slavery, and often cruel punishment... and later some lynching... is going to leave an emotional mark, particularly if it happened only a couple centuries ago.

23 It's dumb thing to do on so many levels.  On the other hand, I'd point out that in the US we live in, women are far more likely to be murdered or harmed by men than African-Americans are to be murdered or harmed by whites.  The latter just doesn't happen very often.            

24 I liked the part of the CNN article:  ".....blah..blah..", Monroe said. "Also...blah...blah", Monroe said.  Am I mistaken that Monroe was never identified and full name never given.  Is Monroe Lexington's Quincy?

25 NEW MCCAIN AD JUST OUT!

Hits Obama not at all on... "global warming".

26

Christoph

On this issue you are full of shit. I suggest you go study some history from reputable sources. It is ONLY an emotionally charged issue because the damn race mongers have made it one.

Why aren't white people "emotionally charged" with lynching? In actuality there were more whites lynched than blacks, also Indians and Chinese were lynched.

As for slavery, it has been around since biblical times AND is still occurring in Africa. Where is the emotionally charged assholes making a deal out of that?

 

27

Christoph, again, it must be awesome to be divorced from reality.

 Obviously blacks were lynched

Duh, as were cattle poachers, Mexcians, Indians / Native Americans, lawbreakers, Chinese, etc, etc...

and it's an emotionally charged issue. To bring a people in chains from another continent

See: Chinese American immigration.  To a lesser extenet, debt slavery (indentured servitude), see Polish, Irish, etc, etc.

ripping them from their families forever, to a new land where many died on the way and others were, well, sold into bondage, slavery, sex slavery,

See above; also, this continues TO THIS DAY in many countries around the world; we are hardly a unique experience in the world in this regard.  Also, the US once upon a time paid ransom to not have our citizens kidnapped in such a fashion, and they were kidnapped anyway.  A little feller named Presley O'Bannon and some Tripoli action ensued.  Also, I think the Navy was there.

 and often cruel punishment... and later some lynching... is going to leave an emotional mark, particularly if it happened only a couple centuries ago.

Okay...  And as a 4th generation Norwegian whose family immigrated in the early 1900s, I should care because?  Because my tax dollars are going to pay for all these shenanigans.

Listen, race relations in this country have oftne been horrible, but let's not entertain the lie that white folks was all in it togehter keepin' the brotha down...  It has a lot more to do with class division and religious divides than you are letting on.  The blacks were not the only race/ethnicity or whatever that was exploited in the growth of this nation.

28 It is ONLY an emotionally charged issue because the damn race mongers have made it one.

Why aren't white people "emotionally charged" with lynching?

People have been murdered by various means throughout history. What makes this more emotionally charged for blacks in America is their relatively recent ancestors were dragged in chains from their established cultures and familes to the United States, then in some cases lynched.

Can you not see the difference?

Your failure to get it... doesn't change that this is the difference.

29

Christoph,

It should be wrong across the board or ok across the board. A lot of people are sick of the double standard, myself included.

30 Again, flashoverride, as a 4th generation Norwegian who has no particular reason to care, I don't expect you to understand.

The Africans were ripped from a tribal culture and tribal cultures nurse grievances for millennia if now centuries. Just look what happens when some European country temporarily throws off oppression and ancient flags come out.

Your ancestors chose the idea of American, which included leaving tribal grievances behind.

I think that's culturally preferable. By far. But it doesn't change the reality of cultural grievances, especially when people came from a different tradition not of their own will.

This thing Vic calls "race mongering" is really. That's exactly what it is. It's a leftover from a tribal culture.

"let's not entertain the lie that white folks was all in it togehter"

I never ever said that. The black Africans, for a time, however, were pretty much in it together, not of their free will (unlike most North American immigrants), and got a real shitty deal.

Imagine you're ripped from your family NOW this moment! And one of your family members is killed in front of you. Your friends die on the trip with you. You never see your family again, are made to work as a slave, degraded, whipped. You die younger than you otherwise would... not the master of your domain you once were, but a n******! And your son learns from you, and sees what happened to you.

And you came from a tribal culture that nurses racial grievances.

As I said to Vic, your failure to get it doesn't mean it isn't real in the human mind. It is not I who am divorced from reality on this score.

31

So teh preceding 5000 years of the accepted practicie of human slavery?  Where does that fit in to your equation, Cristoph?

Do you really believe the English or the Spanish were traipsing through sub-Saharan Africa enslaving black folks?  Or that they were taken captive through inter-tribal warfare and then sold to a new, accepting market?

I'm not saying slavery is right, I'm calling into question the whole "excetionalism" argument, which is total and utter shiat.

32 Misogyny is literal policy with Obama, Inc.

The irony is complete. The KKK democrats who once protected white women against presumed assault by black men now flaunt black supremacy specifically by victimizing and lynching white women who dare take part in the legitimate Constitutional legal process in our national politics.

Marxism NEVER promotes equality and always produces victims of authoritarian radicals.

33

Christoph,

It should be wrong across the board or ok across the board. A lot of people are sick of the double standard, myself included.

Posted by: spypeach at October 31, 2008 08:02 AM (QwWKI)

I made that point. Repeatedly. See comments 3, 6, 10, 11, and 13. That should be enough to establish my bona fides on that.

34 The effigy is bad.  But shouldn't we look into why he was hung in effigy?  What did he do to be so hated?  Could he do things differently to prevent being hung in effigy?  Could he have denounced those two artists who hung Palin in effigy?  Could he have sat down with the two KY boys - without precondition - and talked to them about how hanging a white mannequin is art and hanging a black mannequin is hate?   He's articulate.  He could explain it.  Why didn't he do that?  Is it because he knows these guys are scared because he doesn't look like all those other guys on the dollar bills?  Does he just assume that these boys will never change, and therefore must be eliminated?

35 excetionalism should read exceptionalism

36 So teh preceding 5000 years of the accepted practicie of human slavery?  Where does that fit in to your equation, Cristoph?

That American culture of assimilation, being a melting pot, and leaving tribalism behind is superior. But with enough intelligence and detachment to be able to understand that certain groups have a tribal mindset. They have grievances. And hold on to them.

African Americans form a 95% racial voting block. What the heck would you call that if not what I said?

37

LOL,”my failure to get it” is due to the fact that “it” is bullshit and you are full of it. One can see the falseness of the stupid argument, not only by comparing the Palin effigy to the Obama effigy, but also by the recent bullshit that happened in Mississippi when the race mongers went into overdrive over the sentencing of the black thug who beat a HS student into unconsciousness. The used UNOCCUPIED nooses in a tree as an excuse. Nooses with NOBODY in it were offense and incited thugs to riot and profesional race mongers from all over the country descended on the town.

 

WHERE ARE THESE ASSHOLES NOW WHEN WE HAD A NOOSE WITH SOMEONE IN IT?

 

They are not to be found because the entire thing is just another race construct to forward the carreers of the race professionals.

 

In any case, I have to go as I will be on the road today. Use the next few daysto study some real history instead of watching liberal TV.

 

I’m gone.

38

Imagine you're ripped from your family NOW this moment!

I have guns, and I don't happen to be part of a tribe that's recently lost a skirmish / war / etc.

And one of your family members is killed in front of you.

See: guns, use of.

Your friends die on the trip with you.

See: guns, use of.

You never see your family again, are made to work as a slave,

See: guns, use of.

degraded, whipped. You die younger than you otherwise would... not the master of your domain you once were, but a n******! And your son learns from you, and sees what happened to you.

Listen, your hyperbole is top notch.  And irrelevant.  I'm sure that years ago members of my particular brand of Vikings got in fights with other brands of Vikings, but my forefathers had the wisdom and insight to rise above that shiat and build a better life.  And they chose to do it here, in the Pacific Northwest.  Chinese immigrant are still shipped here in cargo containers, and Mexicans and other south of the border are smuggled in in trucks packed so tight they often asphyixiate, or die in the passage of deserts.  I am not buying your exceptionalism no matter how hard you sell it, because it doesn't fit in with established history.

39 So teh preceding 5000 years of the accepted practicie of human slavery? Where does that fit in to your equation, Cristoph?

FURTHER: Tribalism and tribal grievances for past wrongs is obviously still a problem on the African continent, is it not?

The thing is, I understand that it hasn't died out in North America either. It's something that may with time. It took thousands if not hundreds of years for it to gradually be reduced (not die out: tribalism is very human) in European and then North American culture.

It will take a while in Africa and it will take a while in North America too. Giving African Americans one heck of a grievance to latch on to didn't help matters.

40 "I'm sure that years ago members of my particular brand of Vikings got in fights with other brands of Vikings, but my forefathers had the wisdom and insight to rise above that shiat and build a better life.  And they chose to do it here, in the Pacific Northwest."

Yes. Exactly. If you could even understand the point I'm actually making you'd fucking agree with it.

Hint: That took a long time. If your father had been enslaved by whomever he'd have been pretty pissed off about it for a while and your Viking dad would have probably taught you to be pissed off too.

41 Over at Wizbang they have a video of an Obama supporter at a ralley and she is euphoric when she states, "I never thought this day would happen. . . . I won't have to work on puttin' gas in my car. I won't have to work at payin' my mortgage.
You know. If I help him (Obama), he's gonna help me."

You have to go see it!

42

Tribalism and tribal grievances for past wrongs is obviously still a problem on the African continent, is it not?

And in the Middle East.  And Central Asia.  And Eastern Europe. And...  do I need to keep going?  So how long do we tolerate that shiat in America?  How about we enforce the policies equal, without regard to color or creed? PRETTY SURE I'VE HEARD THAT SOMEHWERE BEFORE.

Your understanding is interperated as acceptance.  Don't.  Don't do it.  It's acceptance of failure.  When my kids do something wrong, I correct them on it.  If I don't then they assume they can continue acting in the same manner.  They judge their future actions in accordance with my past reactions.  Tolerance of nonsense is encouragement of nonsense, plain and simple.

43 "So how long do we tolerate that shiat in America?"

Who the hell is talking about tolerating it?

Did you not see me write that I have always opposed killing anyone in effigy because I find it in poor taste? That I believe people should still have the right to do it including of Senator Obama? Even that these two men should be freed immediately?

I'm attracted to America precisely because it is based on ideas, reason. Thomas Paine and all that. Franklin. "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." The most beautiful beginning to a political document ever.

I believe in attempting to overcome tribalism with reason as much as possible. Like this.

However, we weren't discussing why tribalism and holding grievances from generation to generation was reasonable. It is not. It isn't actually reasonable to hold most grievances over a weekend.

We were discussing why it happens anyway, to whit how it became "emotionally charged." And I understand why. Understanding that is a good thing. Then opposing tribalism with reason is also a good thing.

But you handicap yourself if you don't understand why other people might feel the way they do.

44

If you could even understand the point I'm actually making you'd fucking agree with it.

I do understand your point, and years of (communist) social studies teachers helped attempt to engrain the same shit in me.  Your point is that the suffering of the African American community is *unique* and their outbursts are to be tolerated because of this exceptionalism.

Sorry, fuck you.  No sale.  History has not been kind to any race, religion, or poor people in general.  The reason the KKK started was because poor southerners got nothing for their service in the civil war and the freed slaves were promised "40 acres and a mule".  That class resntment, the idea that the former slaves would "move on up", drove many of these >Democrats< to act in a terroristic manner.  Excusable?  No.  But put in the proper context of history, you can see that evil very rarely, if at all, arises from nothing.

Slaves were brought ot America for the furtherance of economic goals.  The North developed a more robust industrial base, a la Britain, and had no need for vast sums of human capital.  The South could not function without it being a more agrarian based economy.  That's why the ideals to free the slaves came from northern Republicans, and was enough to split the alrady fragile union in two.  I am vastly oversimplifying the case here, but the basis for our supposed modern day relations dates back to these times.

45 Norwegian Vikings played their role as terrorists very effectively for centuries, raping and looting European settlements, enslaving captives.

Slavery existed everywhere in all forms until recent history.

46 "Your point is that the suffering of the African American community is *unique*"

No! That is not my point you fucking idiot.

My point is African Americans came from a culture with strong tribal roots (the norm for humanity unless reason overrides it) and tribal cultures hold grievances. A bunch of people were taken from different tribal cultures, stripped of much of their heritage, but not of their tribalism, and their common remaining grievances was slavery, racism, and related subjects, so they latched on to those.

Whereas you came from a culture that had largely shed its tribalism and your ancestors made a conscious decision in the early 1900s to shed it all the way and go to the one nation in the world that values reason above all as its founding principle.

The United States was founded largely by deists. Like myself. But that's an aside.

I'm sure many of your ancestors had serious grievances. Mine too. Hell, me too.

The point is your family's and therefore your own culture has advanced to a different post tribal state. Therefore you see things differently.

47 I wanted to get all worked up about this when I saw the headline but...

This was done in a public place on land that did not belong to them with materials that they stole.

48 rls

That's all any country needs. A population refusing responsibilities.

Freebies have strings attached and cost everything in the taking, stuck on stupid entrapment.

49

My point is African Americans came from a culture with strong tribal roots (the norm for humanity unless reason overrides it) and tribal cultures hold grievances.

And what tribal connections still exist here in America?  For that matter, what tribal roots existed in Africa?  Fucking A, it's impossible to talk to you.  That's like saying the Hopi and the Navajo and the Apaches were all the same, and they would react the same way in a monoltihic bloc to an external stimuli, and not only that but when displaced they would all coalesce into one supra-culture based only on race to push back against said external stimuli..  Hello, NO?  The Hutus and the Tutsis in Rwanda whacked each other with aplomb with *NO* external stimuli.  As did many tribes here in America.

There is one tribe in America now, the American tribe.  We should do everything we can in furtherance to that goal.  Allowing folks to nurse non-existent or overblown grievances seems pretty anti-thetical to me.

50 The Haimster, a couple problems with your comment:

1. Political speech -- even offensive speech -- is allowed in public. This blog is public, for example. Political speech in private is no free speech at all. You can walk in the woods in North Korea muttering under your breath with a fake smile on your face and you'll be fine, relatively speaking.

2. Did they steal the materials? I saw from the article the fraternity that gave them claims they didn't know what they would be used for. However, even if true, that isn't the same as theft. If I ask you to lend me $10 so I can buy bread, but instead I buy beer, you can choose not to lend me another $10... but it isn't theft legally. You gave me the $10.

Where is your reference that they actually stole the materials? Because your first point makes no sense and can easily be dismissed... your second point is valid and I raised it myself earlier... I just don't see anything indicating they actually stole anything. Please show.

51 Ace, please take down the picture of the Palin effigy. It upsets the shit out of me.
If these 2 guys stole and burglarized as charged, I have no problem with prosecuting them. If those charges are BS, then drop them.
If we are talking about charging them with hate crimes, fuck that - it is free speech, or even ART as the Palin effigy is supposed to be, no matter how offensive. Either it's all OK under 1st Amendment or none of it is.

52 I understand all the points you made in your comment, flash, and I alluded to many of them in mine. I don't think you grasp what I'm saying, but that's fine.

I share your goal of replacing tribalism with reason, and I think understanding tribalism (it's the default norm for humanity after all) is still useful.

I'm tempted to address your last comment point-by-point, but I think it will be less than fruitful. I will if you wish.

53 You fucking morons.

The solution is simple.  Let's ban rope.  Rope kills people like guns kills people.

You know, I have a better idea on second thought. . . .let's ban people.

Problem fucking solved.

54 They can take my rope when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

55 Halloween Joke:

How do you keep a black person out of your backyard?
Hang one in the front yard!

Yep, I'm an insensitive racist jerk but so what? I'm not up for making effigies of folks but I'm not opposed to others doing it as freedom of speech. I am opposed to selective arrests based on the subjects of their effigies. If they stole materials to make the effigy then have them volunteer for community service and repay the 2 bucks it cost, unless it's made of gold.

I'm tempted to hang a few Obama effigies from my house but not quite tempted enough to bother with it. If I were a bit younger then I would be making those effigies right now.

56 Black Americans have no idea from which African tribeS they descended unless you reference the few into genealogy or DNA genetic blood sampling.

Claiming that African descendants racially mixed with the entire world's population at this point in America have a stronger sense of "tribalism" than Americans descended from the Celts or Spanish or Italians or Germans or French is ridiculous.

Yes, I followed the "post-tribal state" reasoning. It fails to acknowledge that some people enjoy growing a chip on their shoulder that is neither congenital nor rational.

ANY racial population that places itself into welfare and remains on welfare for 50 years only getting worse rather than better provides statistical data proving three points. 1) Welfare does NOT improve one's lot in life, but holds you down as you fail to provide labor within the workforce, preferring the government "master" to provide your room and board and educational opportunities that somehow don't help you to "grow up" regardless of how much is spent for how many years. 2) It is pointless to provide "welfare" public assistance beyond a limited time working as employed trainees or in public service. 3) Those who insist on asserting welfare mentality are slaves of that system. Tribe has nothing to do with it. Expectations have everything to do with it.

Those who expect something for nothing and who blame everyone but themselves for not being productive members of society have the Democrat Socialist Neo-Liberal Party to play "master" and fraud to assert a majority post-tribal state rule.

Feigning that blacks have more "tribal" cultural pride than any other in America fits well into Black Theocracy Obama Land.

I don't buy it.

57 Any thread in which Christoph participates animatedly is dead to me.

Well, no. Check that. His comments are dead to me.

Fuck you, Christoph.

Not because I disagree with your substance but rather because your style is to leave way too much of your stupid shit over and over again.

23 out of the first 54 comments is way too much of you, you self-important and smug ass hole. I don't give a fuck if you're right. I just can't stand that you're the fucking one saying it.

Ass munch.

58 Obama Scarecrow Halloween Decoration:

1. J. Crew online blue jeans and plaid shirt
2. Broom
3. Straw
4. Obama mask

Obama Dracula or Satan Halloween Costume:

1. Obama mask
2. Plastic Dracula Teeth, or Horns
3. Glue
4. Red Paint
5. Black Cape (and pitchfork)

 

59 yes we can

60 maverick muse, the default behaviour of mankind is tribal in nature. It takes an established culture based on rules, principles, and a rich history to override that. (The Greeks, the Romans, the Americans, the English... with the long slow development of rights from the Magna Carta)

African Americans only got out of slavery in 1865 and were hardly equal for a time after it. They haven't had as much time to pick up a lot of America's deepest ideological culture.

How else do you explain lockstep voting? Political parties always shill for voting blocks, but no party gets anything like this except within the African American community.

Their culture was grievance based. You can't compare them to those select few in other cultures less tribal in nature who made a conscious choice to emigrate to a new land with a constitution based on reason and a culture of assimilation.

Holding onto ancestral grievances is a tribal trait and you must admit this is common within American black culture.

"Yes, I followed the "post-tribal state" reasoning. It fails to acknowledge that some people enjoy growing a chip on their shoulder that is neither congenital nor rational."

I'm not equating tribalism with rationality. I'm saying reason drives down tribalism, and it should because it is superior. Jesse Jackson is in essence a type of tribal leader, representing his aggrieved people divided by race. Al Sharpton same. These type of people definitely have a growing chip on their shoulder.

Any model can be oversimplified and overgeneralized: Mine too. However, I believe that the general idea that African American culture is more tribal than most Americans who came from different backgrounds and don't vote in lockstep with repeated calls to historical grievances... has significant merit.

I absolutely don't believe this has anything to do with race. I plan on marrying a woman whose ancestry is part African and mine is part Native Canadian... and there are a whole lot of cultural grievance issues in Canada related to Native Canadians, which I don't partake in.

But it has everything to do with culture. And America is not one monolithic culture.

61 Fuck you Christoph.

62 Oh and a "chip on the shoulder" (believing one is superior or entitled and others are trying to keep their people down) can definitely form a part of tribal behaviour.

Even socialism itself is largely tribal, not reason based. "Class warfare."

It isn't for nothing that large numbers of African Americans are currently drawn to it.

63 The event that pushed me over the edge into full despair about this election and it's aftermath, no matter who wins, was the hanging of the Palin effigy.  Plus, iirc, they also have McCain on fire coming out of the chimney. 

Of course it's politically protected speech and I do not think they should be charged with a hate crime.  Mainly because I do not support the concept of hate crimes primarily because I do not want my right to call them ignorant dickless motherfuckers taken away.  But I find it profoundly disturbing that those who are going to shriek and shriek and shriek that expressing religious based opposition to gay marriage is homophobia are perfectly fucking fine with hanging a woman.  (I am not interested and will not enter into any discussions about gay marriage [or religion Christoph so don't even think about it] I am simply using it as the handiest example of the double standard)

It's not okay.  It's not acceptable.  And, yeah, this is one time that I'm going to play the as a woman card.  As a woman, it is disturbing that people think it's just fine to respond to a female Republican by creating a violent display.  No, it's not any worse than if it were a guy, it simply hits me harder. 

That little display, and the utter silence of nearly all of my oh so tolerant friends about it, just finished it for me.  Yeah, we're doomed.  I no longer think that there's any coming back from the abyss of hate that we've sunk into.

Annnnnd there's my cheeriness for today!  Aren't I a ray of sunshine?

64 57 -- Ditto that. Moving on...

65 25 of 64.

Fuck you Christoph.

66 "It's not okay.  It's not acceptable.  And, yeah, this is one time that I'm going to play the as a woman card.  As a woman, it is disturbing that people think it's just fine to respond to a female Republican by creating a violent display.  No, it's not any worse than if it were a guy, it simply hits me harder."

I agree. It's one of the reasons I was abhorred by the Palin efigee. While I believe it should be legal free speech as long as there's no threat made, it's contemptible. That's why I said the people who do this should be socially ostracized and shamed.

67 Until 'acting white' is not an insult in the black community, we will never be a colorblind society. 

68

"But in the end, they have a valid point:  Why will they be investigated for a "hate crime" while the folks in West Hollywood get a pass?"

Apparently Kentucky (my birthplace, btw) is more enlightened than California.

69 26 of 68 comments from Christoph, who really needs to learn how to shut the fuck up every fucking once and a while.

Ass. Hole. And. Canadian. Bitch.

70

Until 'acting white' is not an insult in the black community, we will never be a colorblind society. 

I read years ago that Oprah said she was ostracised by other African-Americans because she "talked white".

71 Christoph is a tedious contrarian. 

Diderot's Dog with better grammar and impulse control.

72 "the default behaviour of mankind is tribal in nature"

No more tribal than universal.

Universal sins are hardly "tribal in nature".

Sociology in all of its glory promotes your train of thought.

Sociology is the product of socialism.

Neither sociology nor socialism define the world accurately, only selectively.

73 Has anyone pointed out that these morons don't actually OWN the UK building they hung their "free speech" from?

I think that might be a LITTLE difference.

The other guy who hung and obama effigy on his OWN PROPERTY didn't get arrested far as I know.  How if this different from shocking the little bastard who tried to take the McCain sign?

74 alex,

stay away from the screwdrivers

75 Christoph is a tedious contrarian. 

Diderot's Dog with better grammar and impulse control.

Posted by: toby928 at October 31, 2008 10:57 AM (PD1tk)

Fuck you!
--


"I read years ago that Oprah said she was ostracised by other African-Americans because she "talked white"."

Sounds tribal.

76 stay away from the screwdrivers

Dude.  With my panther like reflexes, I'd end up tripping and managing to stab myself 250 times.

77 alexthechick, take heart.

No masks needed, nor rope.

View the headless horseman Disney animated flick.

Tack up an empty suit for a dart game.

If constructed and zoned properly, weather permitting, have a suit stuffing party with straw and enjoy its demise in an outdoor fireplace.

Treat yourself.

Women will not allow misogynists to abuse the civil rights of women. There are men who will not tolerate that. Only misogynists think they can get away with sexism against heterosexual women. That Obama emboldens such abuse is his own cross to bear along with doing nothing for the least of these his own brother.

78

Hunter Bush and now Lee Todd (father of Ashley with the backwards B??)

"UK President Lee Todd said the effigy violates the university's code of ethics, and Fischer faces punishment that could include expulsion.

"As outrageous and offensive an act as the effigy was,I truly believe it has mobilized our campus, the community and the state in an effort to battle racism," Todd said Thursday."

 

79 Fuck you!

heh, and a bit more succinct but no more enlightening

80 The first incident was simply a case of hanging woman chic.

81 lols alex. 

And Chrisoph is usually trying to say something correctly, the Asberger's just gets in teh way.

82 Christoph is a tedious contrarian. 

Diderot's Dog with better grammar and impulse control.

Posted by: toby928 at October 31, 2008 10:57 AM (PD1tk)

Like I said previously, he's no better than the eurotrash that urge Americans that we must vote for Obama.

83 Ok, so Obama hangs out with terrorists/terrorist sympathizers,  mocks Hillary every chance he gets -flips her off, calls her dirt -, refers to a female reporter as "sweetie" and has absolutely NO comment on the Palin effigy.  I'm not saying he's islamic, but he sure has their lovely version of misogyny down pat.

84 People this is what is called  FREEDOM OF SPEECH.  I hope these two men take this to the supreme court on 1st amendment grounds.  If you can burn the flag you can burn/hang anyone in effigy.  

85 CR at 55: If you're up to it why not test the local waters by having an equal opportunity display of both Obama and Palin effigies? Will you be told to take down one but not the other?

86 Women world-wide of all races, all colors are raped,tortured, mistreated, murdered....and yes, even in America by men of all colors. I was one of 'those women' thirty years ago.....so I PERSONALLY take great exception to the humor/political satire of hanging a woman....it is not 'tribal' from past generations...it is NOW for me....wrong is wrong! It is sexist and it is tolerated because it is a woman. So can I display castrated effigies in political homor? Hardly because women are told to 'get over it'....well so should others than. My husband is an immigrant - he had to assimilate and be part of the melting pot but his relatives were horribly discriminated against in this century ...so how many other ethnic groups can claim special priviledges and get special treatment because they empathize with ancestors who were mistreated? We need to ALL live in the here and now.

87 Bah, it's all perfectly fine. NO racism here, and sexism is a myth, we're all equal so we can hang anyone we want, long as they're not black... that's a hate crime.

This race card is going to come back to bite Obama and his pet illuminati MSM soon enough.  No media outlets are out there avidly defending the honor of a woman, but were it their ethnic knight, you know we'd never hear the end of it.

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