1 Waste of money.  Projects like the Hubble have yielded amazing results for a fraction of the cost.

2 The problem with you people is that you lack commitment. I pick the corn out of my bowel movements and eat it. I'm that into recycling, wingers! COMMITMENT!

3 Well, there's a fourth situation.  I'm surprised you didn't mention it.

Hold on, there's someone at the door.....

4 Looks like a giant "honey-dipper"!

5 A moon base or mars exploration would give us some valuable research opportunities for both radiation exposure and propulsion.  It's a lot easier to test space propulsion when you only have to launch the components from the moon.

6 Gabe might recall that the Asimov Foundation series was predicated on a narrative line about humanity saving itself through escape to another planet for colonization purposes...but ended up with humanity having revealed itself to have simply gone underground on Earth.

The Foundation series also had the single greatest creature in science fiction: the Mule. Obama, anyone?

7 Conestoga Wagon.

8 Sure, Gabe.  With an attitude like yours, we're never going to get to make it with big-titted alien space babes.

9 diderot's dog:

Our satellites have given us 100x more scientific information than our mars rovers have.  Defense spending higher? We need defense spending.  Read any cosmology or astronomy book.  How many theories reference the mars rover? Zip.

10 I can't help but feel all this stuff is moot if you know who gets to the you know whatidency.

11

A prediction at a deeper level:  humanity leaving earth will come through private enterprise and dollars, not government beaurocracy and tax dollars.  Space tourism may have modest beginnings, but once it starts paying for itself I expect to see some real advances past government technology in my lifetime.

Burt Rutan on past and future space flight, worth 20 minutes of your time:

http://tinyurl.com/36darb

12

Forgot to hyperlink!  Bear with me, I'm a moron.

http://tinyurl.com/36darb

13 4. Ad rem,

*Laughing* Have you ever been to Korea? Made me remember the 'lovely aroma' associated with the "Honey Wagons" that used to collect human waste. I sort of threw up in the back of my mouth just thinking about it.

It does sort of look like a mobile crapper. And WTF??? Leather Seats? Are you kidding me?

14 As usual, NASA gets it half-right.

The utility of the moon isn't exploration or colonization, it's industrialization.

Lots of aluminum and titanium, near-constant sunlight. We use it as a stepping stone.

Not a plaything for PhDs.

15

Not a Waste of money or effort. If anything, we are not doing 1/100 enough. Pretty pictures, even with scientific value, hardly advance the real  requirement ;  to spread out. They are more akin to brochures advertising the rewards of western expansion.

 

 

 

16 (Echo-y voice effect)

COVERED WAGON TO THE STARS!


uh... yeah, anyway, certainly (barring any direct intervention on God's part) an adaptation of the human body is in order before we rally can move out of this solar system....

...we'll all be Borg in a hundred years or so.

17 The utility of the moon isn't exploration or colonization, it's industrialization.

The reason NASA gets that wrong so often is because it isn't in the business of making money. NASA exists for pure research and public goods like colonization which will never be profitable enough for private investment.

18 Yeah, if Insty has his way.

19

Both defense research and space research have given this country some great things. One you're using right now.

The computer was born out of Army research.

The memory foam used in Temperpedic mattresses. Developed by NASA for the space program.

20

Currently they haven’t solved the issue of long term exposure to radiation in space. They have set a limit for the Mars mission of 1 sievert, which for you Nukes is the equivalent of 100 Rem.  They can not make that limit. In addition it may be that they will not be allowed that limit to begin with since the NRC and the EPA have set occupational dose standards a hell of a lot lower than 100 Rem. A nuclear worker in the U.S. can not exceed 5 Rem in a year. Since the mission is expected to take 3 years that would allow a maximum of 15 Rem exposure.

21

Sooners!

 

I saw that thing on the field last week.  It's still gay.

22 Not a Waste of money or effort. If anything, we are not doing 1/100 enough. Pretty pictures, even with scientific value, hardly advance the real  requirement ;  to spread out. They are more akin to brochures advertising the rewards of western expansion.

This is one of the most ignorant comments ever posted on any blog.  Research how many possible life-supporting planets have been found in our galaxy, research the distance to various nearby stars, then research how much energy it takes to accelerate and steer a large, self-sustaining, multi-generational spacecraft to near-light speeds.  When you are done, research how many theories of cosmology are generated from satellite data (BeppoSAX, Hubble, etc).  In fact, read a whole bunch of astronomy-related articles in Scientific American and see how much depends on satellite data. 

23 None of this matters if we can't efficiently deliver hardware and building supplies to low/near Earth orbit. Solve this problem and the rest will fall into place.

24

The computer was born out of Army research.

 

The modern computer, as we know it today, was born out of research supported by the Navy, primarily the need for rapid calculation of ballistic trajectories for naval guns.

25 NASA is a joke and has been since the late 60's.  That's the problem when all your money is free, and your sole point of existence is spending that money on political pet projects.  The shuttle is a prime example.

K

26

The real reason the renewed interest in going to the moon is H3 or Helium3, which is cast off the sun and collects on the surface of space bodies without an atmosphere.  H3 could power fusion reactors and be much more viable than Uranium in fission reactors.

So, it's about energy.

27 Off Topic;

Best Police Pursuit Video, EVER!!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8cb_1224350154

Paul

28  I think you mean He-3, CanaDave.

29

"we'll all be Borg in a hundred years or so."

Except that the Borg were still partially organic. Whatever leaves our solar system and heads to the stars, in a hundred years or a thousand, won't be.

30

@Gabe: Yeah, that's it.  We need a better comments thingy that we can go back and correct stuff.  I tried to do a link to a page on the subject but it gave me a squawk about big strings and tiny urls *shrug*.

Anyway, that's the real ulterior motive for going back to the moon is about, I think.  Even countries like India are looking into it.

31

I always thought the best thing to do would be to send up an atomic-powered smelter capable of turning out octagonal glass panels made from silica found in Moon dust.  Stockpile a few thousand of them and presto- you have enough building material for a huge base.

Send up some robotic welders and cranes and assemble them into connecting domes.  Haul in several tons of ice sitting on the moon poles and you have water plus oxygen.

Send up some liquid nitrogen to complete the atmosphere.

It's the cheapest way to go.

32 We need a better comments thingy that we can go back and correct stuff.

Your dreams are more unrealistic than NASA's!

33 @Gabe: LOL...yeah, "A man’s reach should exceed his grasp, or what’s a heaven for?"

34

Why would we need to go to the moon for He, we currently use Hydrogen and we have plenty of that and it is a lot cheaper.

35

It's the cheapest way to go.

Having accomplished all that there would be little benefit to sending up a permanent human compliment.  Routine shuttle services for repair, maintenance, and expansions would be useful but why not just leave it mostly automated?  At least for a very long time.

A space elevator is a better near term solution for most other ventures.

36 Oh, and I do not mean the space shuttle, just routine transportation.

37

Of all the billions wasted by the government, you're worried about NASA?  Wow.  Yeah, let's worry about one drop of acid rain in a polluted ocean.  At the very least, the money spent on this kind of research isn't building health resorts in the Netherlands.

Either way, I am truly surprised the readers of this blog are not more familiar with the medical and technological benefits that have derived from space exploration.

And...Why go to the Moon?  Good grief, why crawl before you walk? 

Oliver and Wilbur would be so disappointed in this lack of vision.  Just because we don't have the technology yet to counteract certain challenges doesn't mean we won't...but we sure as Heck will never have it if we adopt this self-defeating attitude.  History is made by people stubborn enough to prove other people wrong.

38

Touched third rail of someones lively hood.. no one said  data and theory are un-important, but as public motivation to spend resources and practical application, put the boots on the ground.  Lets get to moon/mars first, then argue about extra-solar travel.

39 @Barbelle:  Well said.

40 Science?  What, is that the stuff that was too hard for me, so I majored in PolySci?

No, we don't need more of that.  We need more Victim Studies.

If you majored in any science, you're a sucker.  You should've wussed out and gone to law school.

41 We need big fucking rail guns to launch payloads into orbit. 

42 Yeah, Columbus should have waited around for Boeing to build the 747.  What a tool.
Considering the mind-boggling sums we piss away on utter crap (just the first round of the recent bailout could have funded, in inflation adjusted dollars, FIVE complete Apollo programs), throwing NASA a bone every once in a while seems hardly worth arguing about.  Just as an example, the Department of Education currently has more than three times the NASA budget and produces no discernable results.
GC, giving the example of Hubble is particularly amusing, as Hubble would never have functioned at all, would have died years ago, and would soon be space debris if not for multiple manned repair missions.
Yes, unmanned space exploration is effective and cheap, and we should do more of it.  However, the public is captivated by manned exploration, and without jazzed-up taxpayers, Washington won't throw money at the space program.
Kennedy got one thing right: "We choose to go to the Moon and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard."  Aside from the vast list of valuable spinoffs from the manned space program (just the fact that it gave us a head start over the rest of the world on microcomputers has repaid the entire cost of the program a thousand times over), it created a culture of quality and achievement among an entire generation of the best scientists and engineers in the country that very arguably led (or significantly contributed) to the USAs lead  in technology over the rest of the world for decades.
If I was the space program czar, I would keep up the unmanned program as is.  I would pump up the X-Prizes to the private sector a hundred-fold and encourage people like Musk and Rutan and others (they will be the ones to develop most of faster-cheaper-better space technologies, not the bureaucratic NASA).  I would support a return to the moon and a base there--probably not permanently manned, but certainly for weeks or months at a time, because we need to relearn how to accomplish space travel again (eg, no one has designed a "walking space suit" for 40 years) and how to stay on a hostile planet for long periods--a practical Mars trip will require a stay of 18 months.  We should plan and fund a minimum of two manned Mars missions.  Building the infrastructure and technology for such a mission will be expensive, but once it is in place, an extra mission or two will be a bargain.  (One of the most terrible decisions made on the Apollo program was cancelling the last three missions.  Everything was in place, the crews were trained, the hardware had been built.  The cost of completing the missions would have been comparatively trivial.)
Finally, I would double the entire space budget and use the entire extra sum to develop a space elevator via NASA and private research, X-Prizes, and multinational cooperation.  Chemical rockets are not going to make us a spacefaring civilization.  Barring some unlikely technological breakthrough (eg, excluding the Higgs Field from areas of space to create an inertialess drive) the space elevator, which is quite doable, being only an engineering problem, represents our only hope of making space "just another place to go."
The general public likes the space program.  They find it exciting and interesting.  But things like X-ray telescopes don't do it for them.  Mars Rovers do.  Hubble does (unfortunately, the upcoming Webb telescope will be a disappointment to them, being optimized for infrared).  And men in space, especially.  And if you want the bucks to do anything in space beyond commercial development, the support of the voting taxpayers is necessary.  For that you need to pique their interest, and a Mars mission would do that in spades, although an unmanned mission to, say, Europa, that discovered life would probably be even better (IF it discovered life).  The discovery of life elsewhere in the solar system would practically write a blank check for space exploration for decades.
A mission to Mars would be hard, but using modern technology, no harder than Apollo was using the technology of 40 years ago.  Huge steps have already been made in radiation protection for humans, and that's without a real driving need for it.  Giving the brightest engineers and scientists on Earth the task and funding to do it would doubtless have effective results...and that goes for every aspect of a Mars program.

I usually agree with you, Gabriel, but not this time.  Not at all.

43

If mankind finds a habitable planet, and develops the means to get there, do those not make

" Face facts, the human body is not suited for interstellar travel. The solar system is hostile enough, but outside of the protection of the heliosphere interstellar radiation is going to make colonization or even exploration impossible. ?"

this point moot?

44 I agree we ain't goin nowhere at zero gee.  But a simple, reliable fission/electric rocket can be had if we would just give it a bit more seed money.  We need 5000 seconds and about 5 years worth of fuel and the solar system is ours.  It would be highly effective for earth endangering asteroids too.  They are a lot higher higher on my "The sky is falling!" list than the global warming fad.

45 Yeah, Columbus should have waited around for Boeing to build the 747.  What a tool.

f, mucking about on the lunar surface is not the precursor to extraterrestrial colonization. To borrow from your analogy, learning to swim in the ocean wasn't the precursor for Columbus' voyage.

46  Damn sockpuppet!

47 and everything f at said.

48 Biscuiteater, I said either/or. Either the travel is solved, or the adaptations are needed, or both.

49 Because of Obama, I'm inspired to be the next Space Cowboy.

50

btw

lawyers not welcome on the moon colonies

51

Sorry Gabe, please ignore my interstellar ignorance. (I was waiting to use that.)

52 That NASA vehicle reminds me of my Billy Blastoff toys I had as a kid. 

53 How much did this critter cost? More money, great. The last good thing NASA did was Hubble. That was money well spent.

54

Thanks, CanaDave.  After reading f too, I'm relieved to know I'm not the only one.

mucking about on the lunar surface is not the precursor to extraterrestrial colonization.

That's right, because what kind of idiot would think it's important to explore an extraterrestrial body before colonizing it?

55  We're not going to establish self-supporting colonies on the Moon, Barbelle.

56 "If humanity ever does leave Earth, it will be in three situations: the first requires that science progresses beyond rocket, electric, and nuclear pulse propulsion. We're never going to be colonizing with present methods of travel. Establishing a base on the Moon isn't going to help with the needed scientific breakthroughs."

God damnit, Gabe, why do you feel the need to offer expert advice on every topic under the Sun?

57 ...we'll all be Borg in a hundred years or so.

^{:::  assimilation will not take nearly that long :::}

58 "Why would we need to go to the moon for He, we currently use Hydrogen and we have plenty of that and it is a lot cheaper." Vic, see Harrison Schmidt's book Return to the Moon. He3 is an isotope of helium that is particularly well suited for fusion reactors. The stuff is part of the solar wind; it's not found on the Earth, but it has accumulated in large quantities in the lunar soil. Schmidt's point is that dealing with humanity's appetite for energy will require new sources, of which He-3 fusion is one of the most promising; but it will require going back to the Moon in order to mine the stuff from the lunar soil.

59

I am Obamus of Borg, voting is futile.  We will assimilate the US Government, and occupy 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.  Your life as it has been, is over. From this time forward, you will pay 100% tax.

60

Pie in the sky stuff like He-3 fusion I assign to the “techno-geek” category of science. Techno-geeks are that class of people who fall n love with shiny new “ideas” that will never work or which are not commercially viable.

 

 We have not yet perfected a way to do real fusion using deuterium and tritium which are much much easier to undergo fusion due to low atomic mass. He-3 would require a much higher energy budget for fusion to occur.

61 Regarding the radiation thing, remember it was Mr. Van Allan himself that derided the idea of manned space flight, because he said that the radiation belts he discovered would be fatal to astronauts.  It was his bleating that contributed to the delay that made us miss being first in manned space. I even remember vaguely that his definitive last word on the subject was going to be published in an official report on the day that Gagarin's flight was announced.  His report was then tabled.

With enough heavy lift, ANY amount of shielding can be put up to protect astronauts.  Look up the Sea Dragon on Astronautix.com.

With short enough flight times, exposure to radiation would be greatly reduced.  We are stupidly considering flight times to Mars using chemical rockets, instead of the NERVA and Rover nuclear rockets that Kennedy was pushing for in the 1960s.  In fact, the VERY NEXT line of his famous speech to Congress (after the famous quote), he requested increases in funding to the nuclear rocket program because the knew that nuclear rockets were critical to progress in space.

We stupidly research the effects of weightlessness on the human body, when we know that we could obviate those effects by simply spinning the craft, as was tested during the Gemini missions in the 60s, and as Clarke/Kubrick did in 2001.

But WHY did we not do any of these things?  WHY did we cancel the last 3 Apollo missions, which were already paid for and built?  Because of Mondale, and Proxmire and the Democratic Party, and it's pandering for votes from the stupid and the unemployed.

The Soviets didn't stop us.  The Jihadists didn't stop us.  Our worst enemy when it comes to doing what is most important for mankind is right here with us.

And that BS about needing faster than light starships is ignorant.  The amount of space and resources available in our own Solar System would ENSURE our survival for much longer than just staying here on Earth would.

As our world population grows and crowds together, a world-wide socialist/totalitarian state is inevitable.  Our only hope of remaining human is to find islands of independance in our solar system to escape to. 

62 Hmmmmm.

1. $100+ billion for ISS.

Result: a dozen people paid $30 million each to Russia to be tourists.

My view: What the FUCK!?  Someone fire every last motherfucker at NASA!

2. $100+ billion for moonbase

Result: a dozen people will pay $50 million each to Russia to be tourists.

My view: What the FUCK!?  Someone fire every last motherfucker at NASA!

3. $200+ billion for a base on Mars.

Result: a dozen people will pay $100 million each to Russia to be tourists.

My view: What the FUCK!?  Someone fire every last motherfucker at NASA!

...

Frankly the truth is that remotely operated robots can do most, if not everything, that humans onsite can do and do it without the crazy operational overhead of lifesupport.

Want to mine minerals on the sea floor?  Use robots.
Want to mine minerals on the moon?  Use robots.
Want to mine minerals in the asteroid belt?  Use robots.

63

My understanding of the radiation problem is that the primary hazard is charged particles. They are actually experimenting with a design that will place a “charged magnetic field” around the space craft to protect them.  As I said earlier, they haven’t solved the problem yet, especially if they can’t meet a 100 Rem goal for the mission.

 

“Shields up Scotty”

64

Want to mine minerals on the sea floor?  Use robots.
Want to mine minerals on the moon?  Use robots.
Want to mine minerals in the asteroid belt?  Use robots.

...what happens when the Russians show up and trash our robots?

65 Purple Avenger, I think I work with you. 

66

It looks like an albino Snuffleupagus.

Someone turn off the center tag.

67
We wouldn't HAVE a Hubble without manned missions. Anyone remember what happened when Hubble was launched?
Right.
All those pretty pictures, all that science that Hubble gave us?
Not one single solitary bit of it would have happened without manned spaceflight.

And Space Flight Participants don't pay to use the ISS.
They pay for a seat on Soyuz.
They come up for a few days and then go home.
(I have my own opinions about the ISS and its many problems, including its lopsided funding, but I'll just leave it at that for now.)

To hell with robots.
I'm not interested in mining.
I'm interested in EXPLORATION.

Do you know what the 1969 moon landing told the world?
DON'T FUCK WITH THE US - when they decide to do something, by God, they find a way and do it, even if it's insane.
In the end, it fucking scared the Russians enough so that when we starting talking about SDI , they thought, "Well, hell, they've done crazier shit."

68 Obama will fold space with his mind.

69

Obama will fold space with his mind.

 

But first he would have to have “spice” and the giant worms to make the spice.

 

Oh we have the giant worms already, they are called citizens of Chicago. Now we need global warming so we can turn Chicago into a desert.

70 What in the hell has NASA been doing with the 15 cents a day that I pay in taxes for their budget?

Buying hookers and blow, probably.

71 Vic,

What in God's name are you drinking?

72

The new prototype has a pressurized cab and is fitted out with leather seats and bunks.

Is that soft, corinthian leather?

 

73 @Cathy: Vic is referring to Frank Herbert's 'Dune' series where they need 'Spice' which is mined on 'Arrakis'.  The Spice helps the navigators navigate space and they can't without it.  Arrakis is a desert like planet inhabited by 'Fremen', an arab-like culture of people.  Giant worms live in the dunes and produce the Spice.  All the commerce of the universe is dependent on the Spice, or there could be no trade.  A lot of murderous politicking and intrigue surrounds the production of Spice.

74 I foresee that photo in several caption contests.

75 God damnit, Gabe, why do you feel the need to offer expert advice on every topic under the Sun

Tu Quoque. Besides, please find us an 'expert' that disagrees with his statement. It'd be interesting to find someone that thinks $10k per kg an acceptable ratio that furthers space exploration.

Moreover, if commenting on a self-professed 'moron blog' requires a PhD in the posted subject I'm afraid you've mistaken the meaning of both 'expert' and 'moron,' let alone questions regarding your commentary.

With enough heavy lift, ANY amount of shielding can be put up to protect astronauts

Radiation and the effects of gravity are not the end to problems with long voyages. Gabe is right in that humans are not biologically suited to space travel. The only question is whether our vehicular technologies are going to exceed our ability to modify our physical presence. Genetic modifications or forms of singularity might be easier to achieve than developing lift vehicles and/or fractional FTL. And I think that was Gabe's point.

76 NASA needs to pull back from manned flights and concentrate on economical heavy lift vehicle development.  Perhaps not a single stage to orbit, but a completely reusable system that doesn't need more than more than a refueling to return to orbit. In the meantime let robots due the exploration.   What are men going to do that five robot missions could not do for a quarter of the cost?
Everything changes though, with a cheap heavy lift vehicle.

77 While I support the idea of a moonbase and a mars base, I can't help but hear this when I look at the picture.  Nasa theme song.

78 CanaDave,

Thank you for the explanation.
My God, I thought he'd lost his marbles!

Darth,
I died. I freaking died.
Too damn funny.

79 Redd Foxx: Comic. freaking. genius.

80 Q. Why manned?
A. Robots aren't intelligent, and aren't likely to be anytime soon.

Q. Why unmanned?
A. Robotic development. In other words, both.

Q. Why near space?
A. Projection of force. SDI. Vital national defence interests. (Can you live without GPS? I could, but I'd hate it.) China. Russia.

Q. Why the moon?
A. China. To a much lesser extent, India. To a still lesser extent, the EU.

Q. Why a space elevator?
A. Japan.

Q. Why space?
A. ROI. A better technological pressure cooker than war. Cheaper too (lots, lots cheaper).

Q. Why not?
A. Indeed.

81

The only way to get there is ------ to go.

Regards,

 

82

As in the Nike commercial - Just do it.  We can, We should, We must.  Of course ending that 'No Private Ownership of Property in Space' thingie needs to end as well.  Otherwise, I ain't building my borax mine on Ceries Asteroid 1.00034 unless I can sell the proceeds.

Regards,

83 We'll colonize the earth's oceans to alieviate future pressures before we'll colonize the moon.  I'd also expect to see massive orbiting efforts before colonizing the moon.

84

Gabriel you are a big pussy.  You sound like a Democrat. 

Yes going into space and to the moon were like an infant's first steps.  Obviously setting up a base on the moon or Mars is the eqivalent of a baby cruising around the coffee table, but that is how you start. 

Yes we are probably many years, perhaps 100s of years, away from interstellar travel.  But to say that should stop us from going to the moon, Mars and farther out is defeatist talk.  And living off Earth will probably jump start the thinking and research that will make interstellar travel possible. 

85

Two Words:  White Elephant.

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