1 I'll wear my white sheet too!

2 And where exactly where all these PUMAs when Hillary was heading up the bimbo destruction squad? Where was all the outrage about sexism and misogyny then?

It's tough. This lady makes some very valid points. However, I believe they would carry alot more weight had their champion (Hillary) not engaged in the exact same tactics that she is now decrying. In other words, it was all well and okay for Clinton to destroy anyone who got in his way whether by legal or physical means.

Now that poor little Hillary has had her feelings hurt, she wants to complain about how unfair she has been treated.

Well guess what PUMAs, YOUR LEADER is only now reaping what she has so bountifully sown. Deal with it.

3 Good grief,

could she be the female equivalent of Pastor Manning?

I cannot follow the ebonical train of thought for too long but I am very glad it has left the station.

Ludvig

4

I just hope the PUMA's are still out there.  We need your help!  With the media, you would think all in America are voting for this empty shirt.  McCain/Palin

Obama = Trickle Up Proverty

5 This is a key question:

Just how many registered Democrats are going to the polls to vote McCain/Palin? The poll samples are weighted heavily Dem, but how many Dems are reliable? Is the party really united, or is that yet another phony propaganda effort that will be shown to have been hollow?

Is there a chance that Sarah gets some kind of rural evangelical surge, people that are not being reached by the pollsters? Maybe church going 18-35 year old females that will turn out for Sarah and suprise the media? Not totally unrealistic, is it?

6 How can someone be so aware of Obama shortcomings, and so blind to Clinton's?

7 I didn't hear any ebonics Ludwig. She's just  VENTING her ANGER.

And it's a lovely thing. Obama's followers' thuggish tactics deserve all the spotlight it can get.

8 Smart. Just keep insulting our allies. They don't need us, we need them. And the PUMAs are doing a hell of a job, too. Furthermore, they are not a bunch of whiny babies like many on this blog and HotAir.

9 According to a post on Hillbuzz yesterday, they say there are 7 million of them.  According to comments I've read, quite a few of them seem to delight in lying to the pollsters about their intentions in the voting booth.

And, since the PUMAs are going to be a huge part of a McCain win, I am doing my very best to make nice and not trash on anyone associated with the effort, up to and including the Clintons.

We can get back to all that soon enough.  For now, we need to ensure that Obama loses. 

10 We need to appreciate what the PUMAS are doing. They can be the difference on Nov. 4.

11 That was delightful... she needs to debate Oprah.  Seriously, this gal would have O in the fetal position in about five minutes. 

I get what they are doing, it  makes sense.  He has to lose for hillary to have another shot.  Goooo Puma's. 

12 Totally agree with you No 9 :CB.

13 Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Our friends, the PUMAs, are fine individuals every one and we love them like our brothers and sisters. But they are cobelligerents, not allies. A subtle point that ought not be forgotten.

I'll not enumerate the points where we disagree because that's not useful here. But we have a common goal for which we are both fighting. After that goal is achieved, we should shake hands realizing the next fight might be with them. That's another day and we should stand shoulder to shoulder at the bulwarks as comrades in arms.

14 I know that the PUMAs are, at least temporarily, our political allies. Politics truly does make strange bedfellows. We share a common enemy. I am not trying to dissuade the Hillary supporters away from our mutual goal.

I still believe it is a valid point however. These women can NOW so clearly see the faults in Obama that the Clintons personified. I'm sorry if that offends some of you, but I still very clearly remember how the Clinton Machine tried to DESTROY conservatives and/or anyone who dared make an accusation against the Clintons.

While I understand the desire to defeat Obama , let us not forget who the Clintons are. It is truly frightening to me that we now have to deal with someone with even stronger sociopathic/narcissistic tendencies that the Clintons.

Yes, let us work together to defeat Obama, but don't forget who the PUMAs are really for either.

15 Seriously, bro. STFU. I share the same misgivings about Hilary...but I'm smart enough to keep my fucking mouth shut until Nov. 5. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

It's also much harder to drool on yourself if you just keep your fucking mouth shut.

16

Would love to see this woman on the View.

I mean, if I watched the View.

17 ThomasDewey, I hope you didn't find any insult in my post. It was intended as a compliment.
If you go to the youtube page, you find people left her lots of nice messages too.

18 I know ace signed off on this a while back when posting about Obamas certificate of live birth, but I noticed a link to a youtube video on the above womans site that references a lawyer in PA that is still arguing some sort of case about BO's legitimacy as a candidate based on being natural born.

See
http://tinyurl.com/6yfwcj

Is this a crock or something that could actually amount to anything at this late date?

The link is to the Attorney's website which has a 10 minute youtube video embed about the case.

19

Not only are there the PUMAs, but there are a lot of people who don't know who the PUMAs are - would have voted Hillary, and will not vote for Obama.  How can he be projected to win so hugely if part of his own party is voting against him? 

I despised the Clintons at one time, but that lessened when they took the W's off the keyboards as they left the White House, and then even more when I saw him hanging out with Bush.  I actually felt twinges of sympathy for Hillary when media treated her the way they treat Republicans all the time, and I'll admit that I felt a bit of respect for her with that speech she gave at the convention.   And as a chick, I think there's been a lot more sexism going on in this campaign than there has been racism and it's just amazing that the media completely disregards it.

20
Damn that'll leave a welt.

6 How can someone be so aware of Obama shortcomings, and so blind to Clinton's?  Posted by: jcp

It's pretty simple really, Hillary has a record in public life that goes a couple of decades. Sure we of the VRWC disagree with much of it, but all the same, moderate and somewhat liberal Dems agree with her. She does not want us to lose in Iraq and Afghanistan, she's reasonable on national security. In short she's a Clinton democrat and has earned a pretty good record as a Senator representing a very liberal state.

There are a lot of people more liberal than us who don't want an outright lefty like Obama - Clinton is the perfect candidate for them.

21 Ludwig : "I cannot follow the ebonical train of thought for too long but I am very glad it has left the station. "

These thread is not an audition for being a racist ass, please go elsewhere.

22

Dear AceofSpades,

thank you for posting Patsy's video.  She is simply speaking truth to power.  we PUMAs may be supporters of HRC but this battle against "O'Biden" is bigger than HRC.  This is a battle for the heart and soul of democracy as we know it. 

paradigm shift, i know you are suspicious and wary of PUMAs but you can rest assured we are NOT marxists, socialists, communists or some combination thereof.  We believe in democratic principles, fairness and justice for all, not in cheating and lying to get ahead.  We believe in fiscal responsibility and balancing the US budget.  Yes we want to help our fellow man and woman but in a way that promotes opportunities for all, not in simply taking someone elses hard-earned money and giving it to others who have none.  remember, bill clinton promoted getting folks OFF welfare, not putting more people on the dole; and he left office with a surplus. 

the problems we face in this country are hugely challenging and we recognize that Senator John McCain IS ready to lead on day 1.  Most of us PUMAs are with John McCain and Sarah Palin 2008;  the rest are resolutely against the O'Biden team.

 

 

23 Her line about how she'll make sure to wear her white sheet when she votes for McCain is hilarious.

24 octobersurprise, 18:

I don't think there is much to it, but I suspect the PUMAs, insofar as they are very motivated in their effort to topple Obama, don't want anything left on the table come Nov. 4.

I sometimes wonder if our PUMA comrades in arms aren't more motivated than we are.

25 I love this lady!

When she goes to polls wearing the white sheet, I will be right next to her, wearing my KKK hood.

26 NM Hick, I would normally not take that sort of thing too seriously either, but the guy (at least in his own words) seems to have a lot of street cred as an attorney, I know there's a few lawyers here as well. If anyone else would care to comment on this or on Phil Berg, I'd like to hear it.

And as to her motivation, I'm just as motivated, for different reasons obviously.
I'd be happy with a TKO...

27

That was delightful... she needs to debate Oprah.  Seriously, this gal would have O in the fetal position in about five minutes. 

I'm afraid that's not quite possible.

28 @ NM Hick

Well, looking at some of their channels (some are not so obvious)on youtube for instance, i would say yes they are motivated.One only needs to look at the videos and when they were uploaded to realise that.

Been watching them for some time now ,as well as their sites.

29 Change, baby, change, are you ready for change....


Cause that's all you'll have in your pocket should ObamACORN win.

30

Add me to the many on this board who are grateful for the PUMAs. They're working their asses off to keep Obama out of office. And kudos to this chick for holding to her convictions in the face of a mountain of contempt and pressure. That there is character personified.

 

31

Wow.  Reading your posts with great interest as one of those PUMAs.  If you believe what most MSM is "reporting," then you know us to be mythical beasts - racist and uneducated, fearful and stupid, all that and ugly, too. 

You know what else we are?  BUSY.  Calling undecided voters.  Staffing McCain's offices.  Writing editorials.  Working our friends and relatives.  Screwing with the pollsters. 

Many of us have learned thru this endless political cycle that what we were all so cock sure about isn't exactly what we thought it was.  Apparently, all Republicans do not eat puppies and some Conservatives are actually quite rational and reasonable.  One can only hope you are learning the same things? 

If this election ever ends, no doubt that we will find ourselves on opposite ends of issues down the road.  We can resume the name calling and the sliming then if you'd like but for today, stop the handwringing.  Get busy. 

32 Someone should tell Patsy how ObamACORN stole the Dem primaries in New Mexico

33

A little wordy to say, "FUCK YOU!" but otherwise well articulated.

 

She's got that neck thing going, which is natures way to say, "back off!"

 

In other words, PUMAS ATTACK!

 

You know, this brings up another issue of this campaign. McCain won the Republican nomination fair and square.  I voted for Romney, but he lost, fair and square.  Bleh!  McCain is the top of the Republican ticket.  I shrug my shoulders and make my vote this November.

However, how many of you Hillary supporters (and I might have voted for her myself) can say the same thing?  Did she lose fair and square?  Did the Chicago machine kick in, pushing to the front of the line, kicking Mr. and Mrs. Democrat America aside for  ACORN brownshirts for Obama to win?  Did the Democrat party stealfully shoot you the bird the way Obama did to Hillary?  You tell me.

 

Then you vote this November.

34 Sorry - one more quick thing.  Mr. Berg, the attorney bringing suit against barky over his birth certificate(s) is the former PA assistant Attorney General.  He is also a Democrat.  Mr. Berg's suit is one of 6 currently pending concerning the circumstances of barky's birth.

35 octobersurprise, Have a peek at this over at HA. That '61 birth announcement makes me think Berg's claim is a stretch.

36 I, for one, would like to say:

From the bottom of my (dark, political) soul, THANK YOU PUMAs!!!

Now, let's roll!

37 Berg is a fruitcake and a jackass, at least he's always been so when I've had the utter misfortune to deal with him.  Take anything he is claiming with an entire salt lick.

Many of us have learned thru this endless political cycle that what we were all so cock sure about isn't exactly what we thought it was.  Apparently, all Republicans do not eat puppies and some Conservatives are actually quite rational and reasonable.  One can only hope you are learning the same things?

For the PUMAs out there, I am a girl.  I'm also queer.  Nearly all of my social interactions, online and off, involves groups who gleefully identify themselves as liberal (in the modern debased usage, not the true classical meaning).  Trust me, I've never once thought that my friends are not good people because they have different political beliefs.  Unfortunately, that same courtesy has not been extended to me.  I have routinely been called all kinds of things, from a traitor to my sex to self-hating to being told that my sexuality simply does not exist and that I'm a liar and hypocrite and bigot.  It's really quite something the hate that those who allege to believe in tolerance feel free to spew at me.  If those of a more Leftist bent can begin to extend the tolerance that they allege to believe towards, well, me, then perhaps this endless election cycle will have some worth. 

38 The link from HA to SLC makes Berg look pretty bad too.
Oh well. Easy to get sucked in on something like that. Thanks for the heads up

39

If this election ever ends, no doubt that we will find ourselves on opposite ends of issues down the road.

I, for one, don't think this is the last time we'll need each other. God forbid, but if the woman-hating, gay-hating, Jew-hating, Christian-hating cult that is Bin Laden's form of islam ever fully reaches our shores, we'll no doubt be linking arms again.

But you're right. First things first. Time to defeat the O-borg.

40

Posted by: Ronsonic at October 19, 2008 03:41 PM (ywSvi)

You nailed it.

I must say, I was a little disappointed to see the anti-PUMA posts when I started readig the thread.

As for this PUMA, I have always considered myself a moderate, falling to the left (social issues). Hillary was my candidate, for that reason, and I thought her to be tough of terrorism and would get us out, the right way, in Iraq. And I thought she had the *stones* to serve.

So, I think, there are many PUMAs who do not consider moving to McCain so difficult.

And, to tell you the truth, I think many of us, I know I have, have had our eyes opened as to the ways of the Democrats. I find myself revolted by actions of the left, now. I lived in a liberal media bubble. (this FM/FM and ACORN crap is pissing me off!)

I still disagee on some issues with the Conservatives, and I don't like the left or right wing nuts.

And, the longer Hillary tries to convince *us* to vote for Obama, the madder I get at her.

Not to come here and whine, but a lot of PUMAs have had their asses KICKED by obamabots this past year, and have witnessed their party dissolve. I for one am trying to find a place in this political system, and can not stay with the new Obamacratic Party.

I sure hope I am not treated like an enemy to this one, either.

And Patsy is an soldier in the US Army. And she is a hardcore PUMA. She has probably received more death threats and vile, vile attacks, than anyone. She is great. And she doesn't deserve attacks.

 

 

41 I admire the Puma tenacity, and I welcome their help.  Thank you Pumas.

42

Posted by: alexthechick at October 19, 2008 04:34 PM (5aAmH)

that was one of the main reasons I was a dem. I didn't like the tone of the right, wrt gay rights, (and women's issues) and healthcare.

Living in the liberal bubble, i thought i was siding with the party who *cared* about the people.

I now see that they (they = the radical left liberal elite aka Obamocrats) are vile towards women, use others as *useful idiots* and are huge hypocrites.

I have already apologized to my conservative friends.

(to emphasize my point, go see: http://tinyurl.com/6cablp )

 

43 My, my, here's another case of Obamabots trashing the people that That One says he is intending to succor and assist. And apparently being  a Black woman carries no weight when the political view departs from the approved script. The reflexive abuse directed at people who don't play along really points out the lack of communication & social skills available. Like the lady says, how does insulting her and tearing down her website help convince her to support The Obamessiah? It's ignorant, unreasoning, and destined to alienate more people than it attracts. The injured party is more likely to vote McCain/Palin from a sense of greivance than to vote Obama/Biden and empower the people who tried to depower them.

44 @  No 35. octobersurprise.

That was lame by Ed,unusal for him.The clipping proves nothing.

Who placed the ad and when,how was it paid for?.

If you like i could announce the birth of octobersurprise in any newspaper any time next week or even tomorrow.

45

sarainitaly and the rest of you PUMAs:  I think if you stick around for awhile, you'll find that the conservative tent is a lot more roomy than the one you're used to partying in.  I'll tell you one thing we seem to share right off the bat - putting principles before party.

Welcome.

46

Oh, shit. I just finished a nice Labrador roast.

Please don't hold it against me! I only have it once in a while. For real...

I - I can't help it! They're TASTY!!!

And cute. They're tasty and cute! How can anyone resist?

47 Ron, you could, but why would you? Back in 61, they would have had no reason to fabricate anything.
Also, follow the link from Hot Air to Screw Loose Change. If the guy (Berg)  is as nutty as he looks I wouldn't put any credence in what he's doing here.

Like I said, I wouldn't mind the TKO, but why waste time if it's a non starter.
There's a lot of important stories out there that are not being peddled by troothers.

48 I agree with sarainitaly about the mindset of many a PUMA.  I believe that a lot of us are moderate liberals and "That One" is way too radical for our political tastes.  When looked at from that view it is an easy transition from Clinton to McCain, voting-wise.

This election has also opened my eyes to the sheer vileness of the left and at the end of this election (actually in the middle of it), I am a woman without a party to connect to.  In four years there is the possibility that we will be on opposite sides of the election again, HOWEVER, because of this election, I think many of us have learned to respect and understand the opposing view.  We have learned to appreciate it and the person who holds it and not hate it.  I can only hope that if Hillary does become the Democrat's nominee in four years that sanity will return as will tolerance.  Many of us have learned respect of opposing views and I don't think it is something we will forget easily or quickly.

49
Dear PUMAs,

I'm a conservative guy who lives in Chicago (yes, there's a few of us) so of course I voted in the Democratic primary. I punched the card for Hillary - with some reluctance, to be sure, because we disagree on a lot of stuff, but without any hesitation because I knew she was the better candidate. (Anyone who thinks a Cook County Democrat will bring hope and change is out of his/her fucking mind.) So, call me one of the 18 million cracks in the glass ceiling: and gladly so.

In the weeks and months that followed, my reluctance for Hillary's candidacy turned to grudging respect, then to admiration: not for her policies, but for her grit and tenaciousness. Which are the same qualities for which I admire Governor Palin.

If McCain wins, the race could well be Palin v. Clinton in 2012. Yes, we'll have our disagreements on policy - very sharp ones, I'm sure, because there's a lot to disagree about. But to have the choice of two gritty, tenacious, tough, principled, intelligent women for president: that will be a pleasure. And may the best woman win.

But first we have to stop the Cook Countification of the USA. And in that noble cause, I'm proud to be at your side.

50

:OD Country first.

And, seriously, we need to stop thinking Dems vs. Repubs. There are many moderates. And to have to pigeon hole yourself into one party or the other, and then be attacked for it, it sucks.

I hope we all learn that we have a lot more in common than not.

(excluding Obamocrats of course - those people are batshit).

I know I have learned a lot this year.

 

 

51

Posted by: mongo at October 19, 2008 05:26 PM (7wDAS)

"Many of us have learned respect of opposing views and I don't think it is something we will forget easily or quickly."
So well put, mongo!

52 sarahinitaly - I'm impressed that you apologized, it speaks well of you. 

that was one of the main reasons I was a dem. I didn't like the tone of the right, wrt gay rights

Ahhh, yes, the tone.  This is an argument that I've grown weary of making with others.  The Dems are supposedly ever so grand for teh gheys.  Yet it was Clinton who stabbed his gay supporters in the face over don't ask, don't tell.  By the way, that's when my complete and total loathing of Clinton began. I do not have particularly strong feeling about the prohibition on being out in the military, but you do not turn on your supporters immediately, the way that Clinton did.  It was Clinton who signed DOMA.  Last I checked, the official position of Obama and the Democrat party was against gay marriage.  Nearly all of my queer friends decree that opposition to gay marriage is per se homophobia.  When I ask how they can then support Obama, I get a lot of blustering and talk about how well he has to say that due to the bitter gunclingers, but he doesn't really *hate* gay people like the Republicans do.  There is no acknowledgement of the fact that maybe, just possibly, their prior statements re: homophobia are incorrect. 

We've had this discussion here before but it bears repeating:  It is far, far easier to be a Republican and queer than to be queer and Republican.  In my experience, it's not even close. 

53 I'm loving the Pumas.
 Loyal Americans first , loyal democrats second .
 Bless 'em all.

54 Also, for my part welcome to the PUMAs as well.

Don't be too offended when I say that until now I would have sworn to ya that Hil was dangerous and the closest thing to a socialist we were likely to get, and would have worked my ass off to keep her away from the big chair.

Funny what a little perspective does. Granted, she's nothing like the kind of person I'd like to see in the Whitehouse, but the prospect of an Obama Presidency leaves me cold and more fearful for the direction we're collectively headed than she ever could have.

PUMAS4MCCAIN!

55

This is a vid I saw, of a PUMA. She is at the end.

http://tinyurl.com/6lojye

(I wrote a longer post, but lost it....)

56

Posted by: alexthechick at October 19, 2008 05:30 PM (5aAmH)

I think Obama has his own *issues* about gays. What I don't understand, is if we are to have seperation of Church and State, why there can be no gay marriage. If you are catholic, obviously, the pope says no. But, if you belong to a church that will allow it, why should the state say no?

It seems backwards to me. Now, states allow *civil unions* which are recognized by the Gov't. but marriage is not allowed, which is a union with God.

When you get married in Church, you basically have to have a civil union, anyway. So, the church part shouldn't be something the govt. says you can't do.

That is the Christian Colalition controlling the govt, no? And that, I don't like.

But, you make a geat point about Clinton. I always figured he was doing what he could, to try to appease both groups. The military, and gays.

I just don't get how anyone can discriminate against people who are born who they are. And, I gotta tell you, I was not happy listening to Obama say he opposed gay marriage. And I also do not approve of the Pope not approving of it. At least I can fully acknowledge someones belief that abortion is wrong. It is a valid argument. Homosexuality, no.

57

And, the longer Hillary tries to convince *us* to vote for Obama, the madder I get at her.

 

Sarainitaly, you need to remember that Hillary is doing what she must to maintain what little party unity there is left. Bank on it- she is plotting not only her return to prominence, but an ass whuppin' of Biblical proportions not just on Barry, but also the people (Richardson, for example) who turned their back on her.  I disagree with her on virtually everything, but her and Bill were done dirty by Team Obama, and I do not blame her or her followers for being pissed beyond measure.

 Hillary is just biding time, now. She doesn't want to look like a turncoat, which she will if she stops shilling for Obama. Her campaign debt probably also has something to do with it.

58

Posted by: Bill H at October 19, 2008 05:56 PM (q8CmE)

That is what I keep hoping, and originally I thought that. But she went on  TV and said she was disappointed in the PUMAS for not supporting him. And I have seen Wolfson, Lanny Daivs, Rendell, etc. attack McCain for going after Obama about Ayers, etc. 

I totally understood her in the beginning, doing what she needed to do to appease the party. But, now? I don't give a rats a** about the Obamacrat party. I think there are plenty of dems to go around, I don't know why Hillary and Bill and her die hard supporters have to shill for that fraud. He labeled them racist. I wouldn't have stepped foot on that stage. And that is where I am torn...

The only reason, I can think of now, is that they want to control the House, Senate and WH...

59 But, I still love her! :O)

60

THAT WOMAN IS AN ACTIVE DUTY US ARMY SOLDIER WHO HAS DONE A TOUR IN IRAQ.  AND YOU PUSSIES INSULT HER, JUST BECAUSE SHE SUPPORTED HILLARY?

My God, no wonder so many women are highly suspicious of "conservatives"

61 this is pur PUMA PATSY!!

Keep speaking truth Patsy!

we are here!

W00T!!!!!!

COUNTRY FIRST!

MAC/PALIN 08
Hillary 12

62 hi sarah! how have you been?

If Obummer is sworn in, which will NEVER EVER happen, THEN lets chat about Hilary destroying the world eh?

No one expected MAC to come forward in 2000 after losing to W and BLOW UP HIS ENTIRE FXCKIN CAREER cuz he knew W would mess things up yes? and now MAC is here to fight for us another day, just when we need him most., yes?

let's give the same courtesy to Hillary. I am SURE she KNOWS from her oppo research all the shcxtr MAC knows and soon we will ALL know. MAC/PALIN will be sworn in, aybe late, but sworn in.

Let's all hold our fire at each other until we get MAC/PALIN in okay?

thanks
PUMA BABY
ROWRRRR

63 Smart gal. Sounds like a capable gal, too. I look forward to her continuing education.

64 what are the chances that the Clintons just say 'fuck it' and endorse McCain?

65 Hi Gina! :OD

66 49 brownline

thank you so much for your words!! theya re incredibly encouraging.

Our party has a serious fxckin personality disorder and we need MAC/PALIN to run the country while they get their attitudes adjusted.

67

Posted by: Jones in CO at October 19, 2008 06:16 PM (KOkrW)

That would ROCK! :O)

68

Posted by: sarainitaly at October 19, 2008 06:03 PM (Va7lC)

Patience, fine lady. Remember that saying about keeping your friends close, and your enemies closer? I honestly believe you're seeing a classic case of that vis-a-vis Hillary and Obama. It may take a couple of months, or a year, or two, or an entire election cycle. You watch- Barry is gonna get run over by his own bus in a particularly gruesome style. Hillary will be at the wheel. And I'm going to enjoy every damn millisecond of it. I believe you will, too.

69 Dear Alexthechick and SarainItaly-

Let me welcome you to the Republican Party "party" here at Ace's site (hope he doesn't mind.) I certainly cannot speak for everyone on this site, but my own personal view is this (and from many conversations, I speak for a few others): we don't care what your sexual orientation is. We don't care what you do as a consenting adult behind closed doors. What we DO care about is National Security. lower taxes, and a strong defense. I, for one, would just like to say thanks for at least being open enough to examine the "other" side and see that we all don't fit into the same mold. I hope to see the both of you post here more often.  

70

When you get married in Church, you basically have to have a civil union, anyway. So, the church part shouldn't be something the govt. says you can't do.

That is the Christian Colalition controlling the govt, no? And that, I don't like.

No, it's not.  I'm not even sure how to begin responding to this since, to me, you've turned the issue completely on its head.  Disclosure:  I do not care about gay marriage.  At.  All.  It's an utter non-issue in my life.  I am a hard core libertarian who believes that civil recognition of marriage should be on a contract basis only. 

That being said, you're recognizing that religious marriages have no civil effect.  You must still have a marriage license and that must be validated by an appropriate authority.  In nearly all jurisdictions, religious officiants also have the power to sign the license.  (I'm doing this off the top of my head and am too lazy to actually look this up)  However, that is not a requirement.  You can go to the justice of the peace and get married.  A judge can marry you.  In many places, you can go online and be "ordained" and that will be enough to allow you to legally validate a marriage.  But the state does set the boundaries who what is and is not an acceptable marriage.  That is the key point, that it is the state, not the church who makes that determination. 

If I'm interpreting your position correctly, and my apologies in advance if I'm not, then you would bring the power of the state to bear to force a religious group to perform gay marriages when this is in direct violation of their religious beliefs.  That's an extreme and, from my perspective, totally invalid violation of the separation of Church and State.

I agree, the government shouldn't tell you that you can't get married in the Church.  But neither should the government tell you that you can.  That is for each church to decide on its own.

A note to my fellow Morons:  See, I can not swear, I simply generally choose to do so. 

71 You know, seeing all these PUMAs and union democrats voting for McCain, this election is looking eerily similar to what happened in 1980.  Carter and Ted Kennedy were involved in a tough nomination fight with Carter prevailing at the end.  Ted Kennedy didn't really endorse Carter after the loss and Carter to this day blames this of two reasons as why he lost to Reagan.  The other being of course the Iranian hostage crisis.  What I see is a large number of disgruntled blue dog Democrats with how things went down and going with McCain.  Replay of 1980?  It's possible given how things are playing out toward Election Day. 

72 Susan, thanks for the welcome, but, trust me, I'm known around here.  This might not be the best time to mention some of the things for which I am known. 

73 I can agree with the PUMAs that the apparent voter fraud during the Democrat primaries is wrong and the various attempts to squelch free speech are disturbing. Heck it's all disturbing. As one of them said, our voting rights and free speech are fundamental, if we don't have those we can't express our positions on other issues.

74

That was kickin'! She is a formidable opponent...you better look out Obama! I think she can take Michelle! Yeah, boy! She should run for office! She is probably WAY more liberal than I would care for, but she has tons of integrity I gather....And she wouldn't let anyone own her! And I mean that in the political sense - bc far too often we send people to that big house on the Hill and they forget they are their own person!

That rocks!

I hate that they deleted her blog...that is such a personal thing and can't be recreated, that really does stink....

75 Don't listen to her Susan, there's no wrong time to welcome alexthechick.

You know what's the most shamefully gratifying thing about this whole Dem shakeup? Dems finally witnessing that there's a media bias in favor of outrageous leftists, and Dems being on the receiving end of groundless accusations of racism which are intended to cut off debate on the issues.

This isn't schadenfreude. This is 'misery loves company,' which is no less shameful. I apologize, I do. I don't like feeling this way but you have no idea what a relief it is to have someone else acknowledge that the sky is blue and grass is green, regardless of what Tom Brokaw thinks.

This is "NOW do you see what we've been screaming ourselves blue in the face about for twenty damn years?"
A PUMA in another thread down the page actually welcomed us GOPers to the Racist party, complaining that she's been tarred as racist since Feb '08.

I hope some will remember how it feels, four years from now, but politics is a rough game so I don't have a ton of hope.

At any rate, we're in it together, for now.

76

Oh, lauraw - PUMAS totally get it.  That's probably the biggest reason that we're out there slugging as hard as we can.  barky et al thought we'd either come aboard or stay home.  Seems totally ridiculous, actually.  Ask any married man in America if he's ever told his wife to "just get over it" and if they have been so stupid, how it worked for them.  PUMAs do understand the media nightmare, the accusations of racism and whatever else the insult of the week ends up being. No doubt there will be policy and issue disagreements down the road but for me, the door is wide open.  I'm sure I'll get burned for it, but I'm willing.

77 #3 Ludvig von Mises

I didn't hear any ebonics in the video.  She spoke good English.  Just because her accent is different from yours doesn't mean she is speaking ebonics.

Don't be so incredibly ignorant.

78 Look, although I have my reservations about some of the PUMAs past associations, I do want to make it clear that I appreciate their help. We need everybody possible to beat back the larger threat. I hope that I've made that much clear.

I in no way am trying to insult, attack or demean any PUMA. Seriously. If my previous posts have been taken that way, then I apologize. But I would be willing to bet that some of the ladies also have their reservations about some of us. That's okay. This blog and others like it are great for meeting and airing out our differences in a hopefully adult way as well as discovering where we agree.

So let's work together as it regards beating back the Obama cult. And I do mean cult, because that's what many of his supporters are, cultists. Hopefully, we can use this time to better understand each other and maybe destroy some myths that we have held about each other. I am not blind, however, and at some point, we'll probably find ourselves (to a certain degree at least) at odds in the political future. Hopefully though, when that time comes, we can have a civil debate based on mutual respect about what's best for the country.

Once again, thank you PUMAs for your efforts. I and many others sincerely appreciate your efforts to help us this time. Maybe we can return the favor someday.

79 If Hillary was the nominee and won the election I wouldn't have been that concerned.  If anything the Clinton's are pragmatic in their politics.  They saw what happened just two years into Bill's first term.  Obarky on the other hand is utterly crazy.  Crazy in that socialist, take your money, crush free speech, beat you up till you submit way.  The PUMAs should be pissed.  We may disagree but we wouldn't have been 1939 Germany disagreeable.

80

Patsy is the Greatest ! And many of us have been working hard to defeat Obama and the corrupted New Democratic Party. Many like myself who has voted Dem for 40yrs are voting McCain.

We have worked for many months now and will continue. Places like hillaryclintonforum.net where Hillary Dems - Independents and Since the end of the primaries Republicans have worked together to defeat Obama and the Dems.

Trust me their are many Dems voting for McCain. And I am not a Reagan Dem either.

Country First - many of us were saying that before McCain even started to use it btw.

Great site you have here!

81 I sure wish, that in trying to redefine the Republican Party, folks would embrace the mantra of "live and let live."  I use to be a Republican, but what I disliked most was the right-wing end of the party (especially these last 8 years) and their imposition of morals on everyone else.  For me, it's not about what is morally right or wrong, but whether it is the government who should be deciding it for us.  The lefties on the opposite end of the spectrum are doing the same thing -- wanting to impose their views and values on everybody else. 

Why can't folks just back off and respect the differences of others?  That's one thing I love most about our country is the absolute variety of folks, cultures and ways of thinking -- we're not anywhere near as homogeneous as (socialist) European countries.  Unlike Europe, we're a country of "mutts" rather than a society of "purebreds," and that's something to love and be proud of.  The Republicans could really get their act together if they were to rally around traditional conservative views that pertain more to the running of a more honest economy, national security and a government that protects our freedoms, rather than delving into the morass of social issues.

82 That was class, Paradigm Shift, so:

I'm sorry I told you to STFU. I don't dispute anything you said, I just thought it wasn't helpful with two weeks to go. Again, I apologize for my rudeness. I certainly could have phrased my point better.

83 Oschisms. No problem. I can't tell you the number of times I have had to apologize for something I said in a moment of anger. We're all human.

One other point I would really hope that could be made into a post here. I hope that now, sensible, adult and fair-minded people from the left and right can ALL agree that media bias and vote fraud are bad things.

Now that the Clinton supporters have had a little taste of what it is like to be on the wrong end of the media, perhaps now we can work together to ensure a fairer media. Fairer, not perfect. We're all biased to a point, because we are human beings. But I think this past campaign has shown all of us who are honest that the media is actively trying to get one candidate elected over the other. This cannot be allowed to stand.

No matter who wins the election, the new President is going to face possibly the most bitterly divided electorate in the past 50 years if not further back. A large part of the blame can go to the media which has refused to perform its basic job of getting the truth out there for people to make up their own minds. Obama or McCain is going to have a very difficult time claiming a mandate for his policies.

Obviously, if Obama wins, it will by default be a "MANDATE" in the boldest possible way, because the media will deem it so. But you hopefully get the point. Remember when Clinton won in 1992 with only 43 percent of the vote? Remember how the media trumpeted it as the biggest landslide in history? That was not a jab against Clinton. I am just trying to point out how when Clinton was the media darling, he got a huge honeymoon from the press.

Now that Hillary (and Bill Clinton) have been replaced as the media's preferred candidates, they are for the first time getting a SMALL taste of what it has been like to be a conservative for the past 40 years or so.

Which brings me to vote fraud/election rigging/whatever you want to call it. Yes, to a degree, it has always happened. However, since the past few elections have been so razor thin, even a small amount of fraud can now sway an election.

Groups like Acorn and other advocacy groups have been allowed by the media and law enforcement to get away with voter fraud before. Now, they are becoming increasingly blatant about their efforts and even demanding that any attempts to stop it should be prosecuted. This is what happens when the rule of law is not respected in this country. This is part of the reason why many conservative critics of Clinton thought it was a big deal about his perjury. He lied before the court. Several times. Now, whatever you think about the merits of the case, the fact is that he broke the law. This cannot be allowed to stand.

Obama is already trying to suppress any attempts to actually enforce election laws. That should scare ALL fair minded people, whatever side of the political spectrum you fall on. Again, if people do not trust that someone was truly elected, (and not "selected" to borrow a phrase from the left) then eventually there will be civil war in this country.

As much as I dislike Hillary and some of her policies, if she would have won the nomination and won the election, FAIR and SQUARE, I would have accepted the will of the voters.

I believe most conservatives feel the same way about this. But we are now seeing that many elements on the left are now trying to overtly and illegally trying to affect the outcome. You PUMAs have firsthand experience with this.

If nothing else comes out of this, let us all come together in agreement on the fact that we need to have comprehensive election reform. I don't know exactly what that might entail, but a new federal system that will make sure that everyone gets one and only one vote and that it counts. I believe that is something that we can all get behind and support. Please, let's use this historic opportunity of agreement to push for something that will truly benefit all the country.

Sorry about the long post. This is just something that's been on my mind for a long time.

84 Joe the Plumber and now this? What an a-hole thing to erase her blog. Can there be any dissent if Obama wins? Should I start erasing my online identity now?

but all the same, moderate and somewhat liberal Dems agree with her. She does not want us to lose in Iraq and Afghanistan
Since Hillary was in the WH for 8 years, it shouldn't be a surprise that she 'gets' that there are some seriously deranged people in the middle east and asia that want to destroy the USA. Obama is clearly in a fantasy world where he thinks he can chat with 'those ruffians' like at a college lecture and change their opinions.

Politics is finding allies on issues of common interests. Even if McCain wins, he'll still have a democratic congress which means he'll still need to work with dems to get things done. So whether McCain wins or loses, there will need to be alliances with the PUMA faction of the dem party.

The chick Patsy in the video is cute and I could understand her perfectly Ludvig von Moby.

85 Faye / 63 "I look forward to her continuing education."

HER education?  If you say so, but she just now showed me something ... damn, something that I wouldn't have believed in had I even known about it, which I didn't.  Until this evening, these PUMAs have seemed like a big case of wishful thinking to me; and it's supremely cool to find that they actually exist.

Tooth / 84 " Should I start erasing my online identity now? "

Don't bother.  The Obama Civility Department will have it nicely rewritten for you before the end of 2009, with no input needed from you. 

86

Posted by: alexthechick at October 19, 2008 06:31 PM (5aAmH)

Perhaps I am confusing the legal requirements for marriage. But I am not saying that churches HAVE to perform marriage. I am just trying to figure out the logic of those who oppose gay marraige, but allow civil unions.

When I was married, we had to process papers with the state, and papers with the catholic church. we could have been married without the church, just by signing the papers. The church ceremony is a ceremony, and for people who want gods blessing(?) My husband is catholic, I am not religious.

I have heard many gay people say that they want to be married, before god, because religion is important to them. But, they are only allowed a civil union.

So, I could have this all wrong, but it seems to me, that if the state is telling you that you can't have a *marriage* but, only a civil union, then they are stepping in between church and state? When you go to the justice, and sign papers, that, to me, is a civil union - basically. we call it getting married. But what is the difference?

And I agree, it should be the church that tells someone who can get married, under god, in their church. But, it seems to me, that it is the gov't. telling people they can't.

And no, I am not saying the gov't should tell a church that they have to perform marriages. I am saying that IF a church, decides that they approve of gay marriage (which, if I am not mistaken) some do, then people should be able to get married in that church. Catholics don't condone it, but there are gay catholics who would like to get married, under god. But, until the Pope says it is ok, not gonna happen.

But the gov't, to me, should not be telling the church, or the public, that they can't get married, especially if it allows civil unions.

Does that make sense? Perhaps I don't know exactly what is granted under civil unions, but I think it is bullsh*t that people are discriminated against, because of who they are.

87

Posted by: Bill H at October 19, 2008 06:27 PM (q8CmE)

I hope so! But I am worred about her out there telling her supporters to support Obama. She had 18M, and that is a lot...and they could put Obama in the White House.

That is what freaks me out.

88 YOU GO GIRL!
Obama will destroy this country!

89 Barack Obama has so many skeletons in his closet that the mainstream media refuses to look into. Ayers is a self proclaimed anarchist and Marxist. The "board" they sat in on together was for education. Ayers wants to teach his loathing of America in the schools. Ask yourself a question, do you really think Obama would have been part of that board of directors if he did not hold at least some of the same views as Ayers ? How many board of directors do you know of that are not like minded ? Then you have the lovely peace minded Rev. Wright. I'm sorry, for Obama to state that he did not know of this mans radical views, and dismiss his sermons as a "crazy uncle" is complete BS! I attended a church for 10 yrs (10 yrs less than Obama attended Trinity). If someone told me that my pastor said something I would know if it was true or not based on my exposure to his sermons over time. Obama wants us to believe that his pastor/spiritual adviser just woke up one day w/these views, wrote the famous sermon, and gave on the day that Obama was not present. HOW STUPID DOES OBAMA THINK AMERICA IS? His original financial backer Tony Resco the slum lord is facing prison time. Oh then there is ACORN. Tell me how many criminals does Obama need to associate with before the media will wake up and report on it? I was very moved by Obama's acceptance speech for the nomination. I am thrilled to see that America has come to a place in time that a black man can be nominated. Having said that, I think the media is more interest in making history than reporting the facts. Imagine if a republican running for any office let alone the highest office had this many questionable associations. That person would be rail roaded out! The other thing that is so insane to me is that when these facts (and they are facts) are brought up, you are now racist. I thought a background check was called vetting?

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