1 Because serious political discourse is conducted with paper maiche puppets.

2 I agree with you our recent troll was probably an actual conservative, but I really find it hard to believe that guy wasn't a plant.

This campaign has been going on for months without this stuff and, now, all of sudden all of this pops up within the past week?  Really?  Just like when all the concern trolls popped out of nowhere the day Palin was picked . . . just all at once . . . remarkable coincidence.

3 Damn, is this going to turn into a weeklong blog drama?

Wake me when it's over.

4 Look, I totally agree that this moron probably has to remember how to put on pants in the morning, but it raises an interesting point:  What are we allowed to mock a (God forbid) President Obama with?

That he can't speak off a telepromptor?  Racist

That he's either highly comfortable in radical circles or the most naive politician in recent memory?  Racist.

That he may or may not resemble_inserta_animal_here_ ?  Racist

5 And I'll stop now before anyone thinks that I'm trying to defend the asshole.

6 In my defense, I'm retarded and socially awkward.

7 Is bringing a monkey to a Palin rally the same as wearing a anti-Palin shirt calling her the C word?  There are extremist tools on both sides.  Of course, the MSM only reports the conservative ones.

Angry White Dude
www.angrywhitedude.com

8 So will monkey stuffed animals be outlawed in 2009?

9 I have seen that guy before in a Palin bashing thing..... Off to check my links.

10 He looks pretty pleased with himself. Some people will probably never get it and there's not much anyone can do about it unless they catch them in the act, and maybe not even then.  And, sorry, but somebody left another mess over on the "I have deleted . . ." thread.

11 Posted by: Angry White Dude at October 12, 2008 10:45 PM (3ifMk)

Tapper has that story at the ABC blog.

Of course we know which one will get more play, though.

12 I tend to think this is a plant.

It just seems sooooooo stupid and even the biggest moron and racist knows to keep that sort of thing to himself and not air that kind of stupid laundry in public.

I honestly think it's more likely that that is an Obama supporter.

13 One idiot, one? Come on let's quit buying this theme! There are enough media outlets trying to push back against Ayers.

Don't get caught in the change of topics. ACE, DON'T!

14
How could any reasonable person think that this putz speaks for all McCain supporters?

Besides, with that shit-eating grin of his, I'm betting on plant.

15 Hongqi at October 12, 2008 10:50 PM (+WuMm)

Exactly. Ace is caught up in their game now.

If you see a monkey and think "Racism!" that's really a problem within you, not within the other person, isn't it?

16 "We have the occasional unvetted antisocial type in our crowd, but Obama kicked off his political career in the presence of two violent antisocial types who actually declared war on our country."

17 I just saw that video and that is a very strange thing for the news to cover and give such prominence.

That is what you call feeding a narrative.

18 Bullshit.

19 I love ya', Ace, but not including the issue with your blog which you have every right to decide what you want, I think your anger is misplaced.

1 bad apple and the media runs with it and you call the bad apple an idiot.  It's the damn media.  Trying to win over a media narrative is the John McCain way.  That way lies madness.  Fuck 'em with their 1 guy out of thousands.  Ignore that shit.

20 Run tape at an Obama rally for crying out loud.

21

Ace:

 

Guerilla tactics so to speak again by them, learned from the the Senate race in Virginia in 2006.  They can plant all they want and since the media will show us in the worst possible light, they won't look under the tent's flaps.  AS we say in the Army, "Too Easy".

22 If you see a monkey and think "Racism!" that's really a problem within you, not within the other person, isn't it?

Then please explain to me why this guy brought a stuffed money and an Obama sticker to a Palin rally? Why did he get rid of it when he realized he was being taped?

Do you carry stuffed monkeys and Obama stickers with you? If so, why? On second thought, don't tell us why.

23 Really, c'mon now.  I would think that security would not have let that in.  Something is fishy with this picture.  My I believe button is starting to break with all  of these mere coincidences that seem to deflect attention away from Obama.

24 If he isn't a plant, then he's one of those brain-dead, conscienceless people who do things like this just for the attention. Either way, he deserves to be ignored. True, the news media won't ignore him, but since when have they ever? This isn't a new phenomenon.

25 This is evidence of an insane double standard. Is this monkey guy more or less nutty and dangerous than Ayers, Dohrn, Rezko, Wright, etc?  Is this monkey guy as close to McCain or Palin as those other kooks are to Obama? Which one concerns the MSM more?
It just shows how powerful the bias is against conservatives.

26 Was he a plant?

Yes.

27

This is a tactic to get McCain and Palin to shut up. That's why it's showing up now that they are talking tough. It's so obvious, the man handed the damn monkey to a little boy next to him and the kid and his parents didn't have a clue who this guy was. He's a plant, and it's a pretty scary thing when you think about it. This is how they are shutting down McCain, they know he hates this sort of thing; and they know the MSM will eat it up. I pray everynight that God opens the eyes of the American people so that they can see what is true and what is not.

Thanks for this site ACE, it's my first stop in the morning and my last before bed.

28 Also, didn't Obama use an ape and monkey reference in his so eloquent attempt at poetry???  Perhaps that is all that this clown was referring to.  Shitty Ape/Monkey poetry.  How is that racist?

29 We live in the Age of Information.  To control Information is to control the Age.  The Media will still manufacture consent.

The Deciders.

30 Drudge is carrying three stories of Liberal rage. It is both ways here.

I will not fall for this. Yes I want to cross arm the right leaning idiots, but we don't have a membership roll here. The media will be biased and present this one way. If we concentrate on appearance rather than substance we lose.

31 DrewM. at October 12, 2008 10:54 PM (hlYel)

Who knows. Did anyone ask? Assuming motive here as well, aren't we? Even if this guy did bring it cuz of racism, does that reflect on anyone, but himself? Should the campaign strip search everyone who goes in there lest they have any sort of paraphernalia that may or may not be considered racist by someone?

I'll politely note that Ace doesn't temper this post with the "palin haters wear cunt shirts at the hockey game" as well. Ace is caught up in self loathing tonight. I thought that was Allah's game.

32 I don't think it was a plant. After looking at the video the man seemed to be trying to be discreet.

He's just an idiot thinking other idiots would think this was funny.

You see equally hateful things, just less racist, at every liberal rally in the country.

Less hateful than bombing the pentagon and the capital building and spending 20 years in a racist church, but still hateful.

33 Is there some difference between the monkey I see here as a token of esteem for Obama and the cardboard vaginas I see waved about at Palin's rallies?

If it were up to me, we'd do without both.  But in the event I am expecting to hear yet another duet from the pot and the kettle.

34 If that guy was a plant then the Axelrod machine is much more devious than I had thought. He looks like some dummy that regretted bringing the monkey when he realized he was being taped. I hope I'm wrong and that he was a plant but I don't think so.

35 Also.

Let me see...

Obama supporters fire bomb McCain signs.
Palin haters wear "cunt shirts to the hockey game"
Obama supporters write "slavery" on GOP headquarters.

Or

Guy brings a monkey to a rally.

Yeah. You decide what's worse.

Perspective.

36 Meanwhile, Drudge reporting that McCain is back within 4 pts in Monday Zogby poll.  Great timing, douche bag.

37 After looking that the photo's on Michelle Malkins site, this monkey is pretty tame compared to what the left has done and continues to do.

38 Okay, the guy with the monkey was an idiot. But we got sites like Dkos to point idiots like that out, and I'm sure they are doing a fine job of it.

Dude, I understand your frustration with morons but it's a little early to be calling them out. Both sides have them, and if we didn't the other side would create them for us.

Right now it's like you're starting a premature hunt for scapegoats, and we haven't even lost yet. Yes, I fear the worst because the fact is that McCain was every republicans second choice for a nominee and nobody really likes him. And to be honest, I think he did Sarah Palin a disservice by bringing her out on the national stage about four years too soon. But thats all spilt milk.

We need to be crucifying liberals, and let them focus on the idiot and his monkey. They're going to anyways whether you do or not.

39 Can someone please pass me a beer?

40 I don't think it was a plant.

I do.

41 On the bright side. You tube video about Dem's complicity in the mortgage mass has been viewed 2,260,878 times.

42 So let me get this straight.

The Democrat Presidential candidate belongs to a Black Supremacist Church - which hates Whites and believe they are the cause of all America's ills - for 20 years and all his political and social allies are Communists, Socialists, Marxists and racists = A-OK

A McCain supporter puts a sticker on a stuffed animal monkey = the reason we are losing the election.

And people wonder why we on the Right have utterly f***ing had it and lost our minds and are screaming at McCain at his rallies.

43 Okay, here's the thing.

1. You can not let any one individual of one's own selection define the group. They do not reflect me; my own words do.

2. You can not accept the Left's premise that anyone simultaneously appearing to perform thought crimes and support a Republican candidate undermines that candidate. Once you play by those rules, you've lost the purpose of speech in democracy.

What is my point? McCain and Obama both make or break their campaigns-as-arguments-for-something, not mobies or idiots at a rally. Allowing otherwise, as is done, invites manipulation (e.g., astroturfing, concern trolls) in the form of agitation away from the salient issues.

It is necessary to have it known that such a stunt is a bad thing, and it's also necessary to have it known that nothing as nice is ever pulled by the Left. More importantly, it's important that if you don't want to profit from such easily manipulated stories you don't project your outrage into space just to reassure the Left that you're playing by their rules, all you Nevilles.

Finally: Ace, you ultimately have no one to answer to but laws and yourself, so fix up your sandbox as you want it, and tell us why, but try not to apologize to or blame your readership without good reasons (I'm fairly new in these parts, but I didn't much like the "You know..." post). It's your decision; don't give agitators the satisfaction of riling you up.

44 I still think it represented Obama's shitty monkey/ape poetry.  C'mon now, you now I'm right!

45 #20

Exact-a-mundo.

46 Let's stop beating ourselves about the face and head for one guy, one guy. Once again, it is the MSM trying to tar & feather us for the actions of one individual!

Do you really think that there aren't a hundred such examples from the left? Why don't those make the media?

Hmmm?

47 We need to be crucifying liberals, and let them focus on the idiot and his monkey.

Exactly. Ace. instead of posting crap like this (we all know it happens), post up every single time a liberal does it. Think Liberal sites are highlighting their morons? Nope. Why should we?

I haven't seen any "obama supporters fire bomb McCain campaign signs" posts yet.

48 Posted by: lorien1973 at October 12, 2008 10:57 PM (ddGv/)

Knock yourself out defending this guy but watch the video, he knows he got busted having his little "fun" and sheepishly gives the doll to a kid and crumples up the sticker.

If people act guilty, it's usually because they are.

Even if this guy did bring it cuz of racism, does that reflect on anyone, but himself?

That's a fair point but life isn't fair. I get that the media has given a pass to people who have said the most vile things about Bush for 8 years or actively promoted them.

It doesn't matter. We can and should fight that but we also should clean up are own crap.

btw- were you here defending Obama when his supporters were seen with Che pictures on the wall? Guess what, attacks go both ways. Best to give the other side as little ammunition as possible.

49 My question is what does the press do with something like this - I mean they have poured the racist gasoline on the fire with all kinds of perceived codewords (saying he palled around with a terrorist makes you think of Arabs which makes you think of brown people...)

Seems they have shot their wad of racism - some dimbulb shows up at a rally and its some kind of sign that every Republican is a racist, but let some black politician supporting Obama call Palin a Nazi and that's, well, not a reflection on anyone else. 

I would say they are going to call us all racists anyway (and John McCain willdo it too if we oppose his immigration bill) so I am not going to wad my panties up over this. 

 

50

>Even if this guy did bring it cuz of racism, does that reflect on anyone, but himself?

On would think, 'no'.

 

But the image conforms to Obama/MSM pre-established narrative: McCain supporters are racist. The fix is in.

51 Ace, I can't say whether monkey-man was just a dope or a plant.

But you've been astroturfed and moby'd yourself, and ought ot be more skeptical.

You have percieved the "bow-wave" effect of offhand partisan remarks or newsstories/talking points that precede or rather too uncannily coincide with turfing; and rally shilling is an OLD technique, and the "yellers" especially I do indeed suspect are parties to this old game.

(The shill-of-the-day comes dressed for the part, with a gaggle of like-minded pretenders who form a buffer zone. )

You know how 'angry tone" of Sarah Palin turned the college fundraiser? This was supposed to build a theme in the press. It IS strategery.

And shills and turfers and partisan participation have been boosting it.

Some of those odd-duck shouts really are sort of out of place.
Even a very enthusiastic person wouldn't have chosen that particular shout. "Kill him?" Give me a break.

There are doofuses enough, I'll grant. But I have been pretty suspicious because of talking points used before the shouts at rallies even hit the internets or papers.

52 mortgage mess not mass. Some sort of freudian slip there.

53 Shhh . . . no time to talk about anything but the failing economy . . . Ayers is a cynical distraction . . . it's the economy stupid, hurry get back to that . . . oh wait there's a guy with a monkey doll, stop the presses . . .

54 In today's highly charged political atmosphere, how can one honestly think that Monkey Man is NOT a plant?  I mean seriously, who the fuck does that?

We are witnessing the greatest con job in the history of politics in this country, and the people that most Americans rely on to tell them the truth are accomplices.

K

55 I'm sick of being tagged with shit I had nothing to do with and called things I have never thought in my life.

56 IF YOU DON'T WANT ME TO DISCUSS IT THEN STOP FUCKING  DEFENDING IT AND TELLING ME ITS IMPORTANT TO SHOW HOW ANGRY YOU  ARE

57 Look, this ain't going to change the minds of those already voting for Obama or leaning his way.  I'm still working on my brother in law who likes Obama because he is A: Young, B: speaks well and C: has a plan for the economy.  Yes I have spent hours convincing him that B is not a valid reason once Obama goes off of the telepromter.  I can't change A but Armed Liberal on Winds of Change has a great post of the prime role of Freddie/Fannie in the financial crisis that I think can change his mind on C the economy.  This coupled with McCain's new plan will be what changes peoples minds, not some idiot with a monkey in the fucking crowd.

58

http://blogs.abcnews.com/

politicalpunch/2008/10/vile-anti-palin.html

 

put'em together

59 Knock yourself out defending this guy...

How did Lorein1973 defend this guy?

60 It's really fortunate that every time ONE person does something stupid at a McCain /Palin rally there just happens to be a reporter standing next to them or close enough to hear them say something in a crowd of 10,000.

61 whatever, you guys keep insisting its all mobies and then turn around and defend it.

if it's mobies why is it being defended?

childish.

Why not just say:  Yes, you're right, if we're at a campaign rally and see or hear one of these  idiots, we'll shut them up?

No, you don't say that. I hear a lot of defenses.  And then claims that the thing you're defending isn't even being done by republicans,but by mobies.

one or the other, guys.  one or the  other.

62 Frankly, I'm surprised that nobody has shown up in a gorilla suit yet.

 

63 It's unfortunate this isn't a level playing field with the media.

Idiots like this need a good crack upside the head.

64 DrewM. at October 12, 2008 11:03 PM (hlYel)

My point really is - liberals don't spend highlighting their morons. Why should we? I'm not defending this guy, really. I'm just saying - unless you are willing to go through extreme measures, you can't stop them. So whining about it won't get you very far.

Ace should make a post for each liberal who destroys private property, firebombs a mccain sign, etc during this campaign.

Think liberals are worrying about their mental deficients? No. Why should we? This guy is a moron. He doesn't reflect on anyone but himself.

There are far deeper and more consistent patterns on the left than on the right.

65 Also a Moby-tell:

Moby waits for that little quiet moment to yell, when other people are still listening. He wants his yell to be percieved,
like Doris Day waited for her chance in that quiet spot right before the cymbals crash, to scream real loud.

66
If someone on McCain's campaign staff was doing this, then I'd say "that's it for us" and resign myself to planning for 4+ years of Fidel Obama.

Sorry, Ace, but I think you're overreacting here.  One schmuck in a crowd does not speak for all of us.  Plant or not, this will be forgotten within a few days (and that's assuming it gets any traction).  And if it does get any traction, expect the appropriately strongly worded statement of condemnation from McCain/Palin.

If Obama or the press decides to make a big deal about it, there is plenty of documented moonbat activity (such as the link I posted above) that can be used for return fire.  They'd be stupid to go there with the amount of venom their supporters have been sending Palin's way.

67 THEN STOP FUCKING DEFENDING IT

Who is defending something that begs Democrats to shut down political discussion? They do that anyway, of course... and we're just pushed back into "talking about Wright is racist" territory.

68 I didn't defend it. Anyone who does that for reals is stupid and annoying.

69 Yeah, looks like the media's doing a pretty good job of distracting everyone from ACORN.

One question - why was it okay for liberals to monolithically refer to Bush as a chimp - you know - Chimpy McBushHalliburton - for 8 years, and now it's beyond the pale?

Oh.  Right.  Because of the racism.

Qwinn

70 Posted by: Hongqi at October 12, 2008 11:08 PM (+WuMm)

I figure when he wrote the following he meant the problem was me and others who think monkey man is an ass and not monkey man himself.

If you see a monkey and think "Racism!" that's really a problem within you, not within the other person, isn't it?

71 The MSM has all of their cameras and reporters at these things JUST for this this.  Why else do you think they cant spare anyone for background checks on Obama in Chicago, NY, Hawaii, Kenya, Indonesia, and Caribbean Islands?  They are either in Alaska or wherever there might be dirt on Republicans.

72 ace at October 12, 2008 11:06 PM (1WR4H)

I think you are missing the point. Either on purpose or on accident. I can't figure which. I know you are mad about the post earlier. It sucks that some people ruined it. But you are really taking it out on everyone now.

Where is the "palin haters wear cunt shirts" post?

Where is the "obama supporters firebomb mccain signs" post?

Where is the "obama supporters write slavery on GOP headquarters" post?

Stop accentuating your own party's morons, and highlight theirs. You'll find far more examples.

73 "I give up. Vent. Encourage it. Go to a rally and shout it yourselves. Clap when other imbeciles embarrass your candidates and make them walk away from the attacks they were planning on making."
 Did anyone actually say that?
All I want McCain's people to do is start verifying and dealing...on the spot...with the people who are doing this. It would stop right away...like the fainters.
 But Ace you are absolutely right that people venting and behaving stupidly is just going to hurt McCain's chances......I just don't think getting sucked into it as if it's 10,000 people doing this instead of three or four is very helpful either.
 I realize that the MSM makes it seem as if it's 10,000...but that's what everyone has to deal with. There has to be a real plan.
You can't just act as if this isn't happening or as if it's the end of the world either.

74 Was it stupid?  Yes

Could he be a plant?  Possibly...

Are there idiots everywhere?  Yes

Was it as bad as the C word t-shirts?  No

Am I gonna lose sleep over this f-ing moron?  No

Are we gonna lose the election because of it?  Definitely not...

Ace,  relax, have a beer and get some rest...

75

>Plant or not, this will be forgotten within a few days (and that's assuming it gets any traction).

 

Count how many times the vid clip runs on CBSMSNBCCNNABC tomorrow.

What do you think the over/under will be on that?

76 So, Molotov cocktails in Oregon, and this shit is what dominates the news cycle?

This is what I'm pissed over, ace, not that I'm "defending" or "moby-shouting".

77 I agree with Qwinn


QwinnW

78 gran for god's sake of course these imbeciles do not speak for us, but they are being portrayed that way.

I'm trying to put out the word to our bumpkin-republicans that obama monkeys and cries of "Arab" are not helpful.

why the fuck is there such  an absurd level of resistance to this?  Half of you claim it's mobies, the other half claims "it's not that bad," the third half claim "it's not fair that the media exposes ours but not theirs."

Um, so what?  Whichever way, IT NEEDS  TO STOP.

And this is the only way I know to get the word out.

You guys have a better way?

79 I can't defend this guy. He obviously knew it was a dumb thing to do. I believe Ace's larger point is this election is too important to be doing dumb stuff like that. We know how the media portray us and yet we give them the gasoline and matches?

I am not sure we could exert control. High school humor by a elderly man, pathetic. Now we won't be discussing ACORN but the hate that Palin inspires.

80 Even if it WAS a plant...no one told him to cut it out??? I mean, that video could've been pure win if someone had some out and taken it from him sayin "nah we dont do that here"...

oh well.

81 To quote Gold Leader from Star Wars:  "STAY ON TARGET".  Jesus, this is nothing more than chaff and flares being put up by the enemy.  Disown it and move on.  Anyone who believes it is something more sinister is already a koolaid drinker and needs to be ignored and not taken seriously.  McCain's people need to pay better attention at these rally's.  However, weren't we bitching about Obama banning signs at a Virginia rally a few short weeks ago???

82 Its fucking bullshit that this is what gets reported, more than anything.  So what?  So some stupid guy at a Palin rally is a racist...yeah it hurts us.  But what's total bullshit about it is that people can go around wearing "Palin is a Cunt" t-shirts and nobody bats an eye.

83 Ace, this is certainly not an optimal strategy to bring props like this to a campaign rally given the media is effectively taking orders from the DNC, but I don't think any of your readers would do something like this.

There is simply nothing we can do about this.

84 #72 Stop accentuating your own party's morons, and highlight theirs. You'll find far more examples.

Exactly... don't go AllahPundit on us, Ace!   I half-expected you to end your post with the word "heartache".

85 What exactly were the c-word t-shirts?

86 The LC thing was probably pretty trying.

It's not like the guy couldn't post walls of names elsewhere.

87 Fuck Ace some of your posters are idiots. "Was the guy a plant?"

Does it matter?

Here's the same guy out the front before the rally.
http://tinyurl.com/3wafx9

If you watch the vid you've got to ask the question: Did the Democrats also plant all the Republicans beside this guy that didn't slap it out of his hand? Are all of McCain's audience plants?

Another and probably more pertinent question is: How the fuck did he get into the rally carrying that? What the fuck type of security do they have on the doors? It's not like he's got a bag or anything to stuff it in. It must have been out there on full display to security.

88 This guy is a plant, nobody around him knew him or what the monkey was all about, plus the guy looked pretty damned ashamed at getting caught.  Conservatives believe in what they are doing even if we are wrong.  Like the dipsticks that stay home from an election to show those darn republicans that they are not happy with the candidates.  Geez what a frigging assbag...yah I brought it for the kid. HAHA....be a racist on your time jackass!!!  Hey at least the poles show a 4% move back to our side from 11 to 7 in 3 days with 23 days left.  I feel a dread that McCain is working hard to loose this race...it is like he no longer wants it..and the truth is I never wanted him for my choice.  CBS missed all those shots of Abort Palin at Obama rallys but they searched the crowd and found this guys....????  Sure they did...they are not in the tank for the BHO.  Give me a break!

89 Who in the flaming fuck is defending this?

I sure understand it. Both from a "You can't be perfect" perspective, and from a "Nice plant asshole" perspective.


But is anyone defending this? I'd examine post-by-post, but the gist seems pretty clear after just, say, 10.

'joke, off-topic, off-topic, moron, asshole, moron, off-topic, plant'

90 My GOD, watch the manhatten video on Drudge! I can bet you it won't be seen on the MSM. That was pure unbridled hate by liberals against of few brave souls who ran that gauntlet. Maybe it's time to start going to Obama rallys with a video camera. I am sure they won't let you in with one though. You are not going to stop people from expressing themselves no matter how wrong you believe they are.

91 Hmmmm.

Who is defending this nonsense?

92 lorien , you're right, this site isn't partisan enough; I'm sorry.  

I should only do stories about Liberals Bad and certainly not seek to change bad conservative behavior that is imperiling the small chances we have of winning.

because you're right, the right side of the aisle doesn't know about the firebombed  signs. if I don't publish that, the secret remains a secret.

93 Ace, I don't disagree with you but you're getting seriously worked up over this. Step away from the computer and take the night off, do something fun for yourself. This is looking like one of those posts that you're going to regret later.

94 Think liberals are worrying about their mental deficients? No. Why should we?

Posted by: lorien1973 at October 12, 2008 11:12 PM (ddGv/)

Because as unfair as it is, ours get held against us in public. In the previous thread I rail against its unfairness but that doesn't change a thing.

I agree that we should be promoting the idiocy and violence of the left (see my posts from yesterday on John Lewis) but it doesn't mean we defend this shit, if for no other reason than bashing guys like this is the right thing to do.

I don't care what the left does because I don't want to become them. Someday (this year or another) a Democrat will be President. I don't want to see this place of the rest of the rigt become like what we've seen for the last 8 years. It's not good for us or for the country.

95 Big deal.  I predict these events will happen in more frequency as they are Obama plants.  It's already old news to me and will not sway my opinion one way or another.

96 I don't watch any television anymore so I don't know for sure what is current, but fora long time we had a widely accepted practice or code.

Don't put the cameras on the streaker, or whatever.

Don't give a play-b-play--say "Play is held up here while Security takes care of a problem".

How about we do mthe same thing.  don't quote or point to Andrew Sullivan.

Don't quote or point to idiots in audiences.

DO talk about how we will solve the financial problems or mor precisely, how we will stay the hell outof the way.
 
And so forth.

97 Ace, can I postulate something in regards to the question in #78?

It's because, we collectively on The Dextrosphere, have been called racists, facists, Nazis, hate-mongers, slavers, sexists, etc. by The Left in increasing frequency and vitriol over the past several years.

So, when someone "safe" or "on our side" raises this sort of thing, reflexes kick in.



(Just IMO)

98 You guys have a better way?

Highlight the other side's mis-steps instead of your own's. Get the word out, fine. Anyone reading this blog who goes to a rally ain't gonna be doing it. Beyond that, highlight what they do. So when they say "he brought a monkey" you say "they firebombed a building"

99 I'm not defending it.  I would've grabbed the fucking monkey and shoved in the garbage can.  I think one reason you aren't hearing about the cunt t-shirts is well, the word cunt.  Kinda tough to say on the news.  You can say monkey all day long.

100 Muellerman, I don't speak for the world but I wold ignore jerk trolls or sidle away from them in that kind of venue, especially when there is a speech going on that I want to listen to.

Best to pretend doofus doesn't exists, especially when he's given off so many stinky clues of fakery, like interupting in a weird spot.
One goal of the Moby is to heckle and interfere with the message.

101 >>>
There is simply nothing we can do about this.

Yes, you can, since you guys  are 1) not mutants and 2) likely to be attending a rally at some point.

You also talk to other conservatives.

You can say things like I am.   Like, "Hey, I know you're angry and  all, but don't be an idiot.  At least not on camera."

102

>And this is the only way I know to get the word out.

You guys have a better way?

 

Go for it man. Onboard. It just seems that in the current media climate, it's like trying to hold the ocean back with a bucket.

103 #78 Ace why the fuck is there such an absurd level of resistance to this?

The point I was trying (and failed) to make is that any reasonable person, after watching that news footage, would conclude that it's just one crank who doesn't speak for all McCain voters.

Now, if there had been a crowd of people with stuffed monkeys, then we might have a problem.

104 Ace, I saw your response to me in the other thread, and seriously you need to take a chill pill, real or metaphorical. 

I am not, and I don't see any other posters "defending" theose who yell kill him and say that BHO is an Arab or even the monkey guy. 

Consider, those who are positing that they guy is a plant are acknowledging that it doesn't help - they are just saying someone is doing it intentionally to be unhelpful. 

But these morons (not the good kind of moron) are NOT the reason why McCain is losing.  And the guy who keeps trying to spam that chick's name isn't either - even if he's a lowlife or whatever else. 

Of course the Kos kidz etc go up and do the uncomfortable to the candidates - I bet the Troofer stuff scares the crap out of BHO (now that would be an interesting bit of video...).  Biden, he's just dumb and rolls with it. 

At any rate, more people seem to be responding to your reaction rather than
to the underlying actions. 

So go hump some other strawman,

105 People are pissed that it's news when actual egregious, mindset-defining actions are being ignored by the larger media. Most of us just don't care.

It's going to be spun into something it isn't whether or not it was a genuine act. I guess we should be asking what to do about that, but I'm more interested in the terrorism that passes for activism-for-communism on the Left.

106 I don't think I would bring a monkey to a firebomb fight.

Even Lewis seemed to want to bring the firebombs.

107 Why not just say:  Yes, you're right, if we're at a campaign rally and see or hear one of these  idiots, we'll shut them up?

Okay.  That's fair.

108 #103

I should have said "any reasonable person whose choice of candidate might be swayed".

109 Two links of reports on our oh so kind, generous, peace loving, considerate, polite, gentle, liberal friends:  http://tinyurl.com/4um832.  Got to love the "Sarah Palin is a C***" tee shirt.  It should be bringing quite a number of votes to McCain/Palin.  Not exactly what the people wearing the shirts thought they were doing.
Michael Malkin with more stories: http://tinyurl.com/3r3dda 

Of course it doesn't matter that their are far more stories on the nutroots.  The MSM is only out to find republican examples that they can publish to make it seem as common as the liberal crap.   Ace is right.   We have to make sure we do not give them any ammo.   Look how many times something outrageous is up on Kos that we quote as examples.   Today I learned how fast Ace's stories spread across the blogosphere when I googled the disappearing post.  This is an important site.   Its also a lot of fun.  Don't screw it up.

110 Totally agree with you on the last point, Ace.

111 >>>It's because, we collectively on The Dextrosphere, have been called racists, facists, Nazis, hate-mongers, slavers, sexists, etc. by The Left in increasing frequency and vitriol over the past several years.

>>>So, when someone "safe" or "on our side" raises this sort of thing, reflexes kick in.

That's fair.  But these reflexes are bad.  It is a bad thing to reflexively dismiss any criticism, even  when it's coming from an ally who obviously means  it to be constructive.

Let's stop making excuses about these imbeciles and work on getting them to stop.

'SHUT THE FUCK UP IDIOT" is a nice way  to end this crap,  plus if you say the f-word, they can't use the  cut on  tv.

112 ace at October 12, 2008 11:17 PM (1WR4H)

Think Kos is wasting their time talking about the guy who firebombed the mccain signs or wore palin cunt shirts?

No way. Why should you be more introspective?

because you're right, the right side of the aisle doesn't know about the firebombed  signs. if I don't publish that, the secret remains a secret.

The point is, Ace. That are you, did, in fact write up this story when you had "palin cunt shirts" and "mccain firebombed signs" and "slavery on GOP Hq" stories to pick from.

The logic here is impeccable.

Someone else was right. end this post with "nuance" or "heartache" why don't you?

113 Re: ace at 101, You are right ace, I thing we should all declare McCain Palin Monkey free zones, of course then only the criminals will have monkeys

114 Simple way to determine if he was a plant.  If the MSM goes into details about the person who brought the monkey (i.e. a lifelong Republican voter and churchgoer brought a monkey depicting Obama) then it wasn't a plant.  If the story is "a puppet was seen at a McCain rally" then it was a plant.

115 Some people believe they evolved from monkeys!

Which is awesome! Cause Monkeys are awesome! And evolution is awesome! And creation is awesome! And prehensile tails are awesome! And bananas are awesome! And trees are awesome!

And the most awesome monkey of all, King Kong, was really awesome!

Awesome!

116 CDR M -You want to touch my monkey?

117 Really, if this type of stuff forces McCain off message then he really shouldn't be President. Again, I'm not condoning this behavior but I would not let it deter me from continuing to stay on message.

118 Needless to say, Ace, you know where I stand on this.

I would only add that it's a real pisser when you delete comments (like cadillac in the other thread) because it then renders the conversation unintelligible.  Besides, I enjoy reading the idiots.  I understand nuking the people posting the legally questionable stuff, and I understand nuking actual spammers...but dammit, I got here late and now all the FUN (read: the stuff that gets my dander up) has been removed from the thread.

A selfish complaint, I know.

119 Responsible conservatives crucify this guy as moron who is hurting our cause, the drive to keep Teh ONE! and malevolent Michelle out of 1600 PA Ave.

Liberals revel in Bush hatred and ripping Palin who seems to be a genuinely good person.

Go figure who the adults in the room are. 

If that guy was next to me he'd get an earful of noise at the very least.

120 So some dickhead shows up with his stupid 2cts worth and it spells the end of the GOP? Geeze awready! The MSM do not need a reason to smear half the US population as racists. They have "The Code". Screw that corn chunk and let's get on with losing this thing.

121 If I see one of these idiots at a McCain/Palin rally, I'll get their name, ridicule them on tape and send you a link. I promise.

How many pledges like that can we make around here to cheer up Ace?

(Of course, I'm in Seattle. We only have highbrow fundraising events out here.)

122 #112: Think Kos is wasting their time talking about the guy who firebombed the mccain signs or wore palin cunt shirts?

No way. Why should you be more introspective?

Well, we should hold ourselves to some standards. Again: we don't have to play their game.

123 Ace - I understand the frustration but I don't think this crap actually loses votes for McCain.  McCain should ignore it even if the media wants to make something of it.  Us and him talking about it makes it worse and gives it more weight.

124 That Awesome Happy Fun Guy is Awesome! He always leaves me feeling so much more awesome.

125 OK, I was charitable to you in your first rant. I disagreed with you, but it's your blog, and especially since there were legal issues involved, I was gentle.

Well, enough of that. You are a serious idiot and a prick.

Neither I nor anyone else who reads or comments on this blog can be credibly lectured to about their tone or their word choice by a blogger who allows filth like this to be front-paged on their site. No, you didn't write it. But it's not a moby, it's not a troll, it's someone with full posting privileges, for goodness' sakes.

Do you really think that people are going to look at some random troll posting idiotic shit in your comments, and not blame you at least in part for fomenting it? You can argue all you want that there's a difference. It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what other people think. You're the one arguing that it's the impression it creates with others that matters, so you can't take that off the table. And the fact is that people who read this blog can ignore the comments completely and conclude that this is an incendiary site full of hate and anger.

Maybe you've had a genuine epiphany, your own little come-to-Jesus moment. Maybe you really do want a "new tone". Fine. Start with your own front page.

126 Hmmmmm.

@ Ace

*shrug* let's face facts.  We're going to be smeared by the media regardless what we do.

We could have "Obama for 2008" tattooed on our asses and the media would scream about having "Obama" tattooed on our buttocks.  Whether or not a conservative, Republican or a moby does or does not do anything is frankly irrelevant because, and you know this is true, the media will fabricate a scandal.

127 Well, off to sleep soundly in the warm glow of a Patriots loss.

128 No, but I'm sure it'll run once I take my mag light to it.

129 Were I the blogging juggernaut that Ace is, my post would've been more along the lines of:

Yes, this guy holding this monkey with an Obama sticker is an idiot.

Exactly as much of an idiot as people who have called Bush a chimp for the last 8 years, without letup.

I get the logic that it's okay to call Bush a chimp, and it's horrific to call Obama a monkey, because of the racism.  It's also a massive double standard.  And it's bullshit.  And I won't let anyone convince me that the two are qualitatively different.  If it's a thought crime to refer to Obama as a monkey, it should've been every bit as bad to refer to Bush as a chimp.  Period.

Qwinn

130 This was in PA.  He's most likely a PUMA.

131 DrewM. at October 12, 2008 11:17 PM (hlYel)

Can I make a lame sports analogy? Before a game, a coach is not spending his time saying "we suck at this, we suck at that" they say "we can beat them by doing this, by doing that"

We spend so much time hating ourselves, demanding that everyone do the right thing; that when guys this crop up, we tear our hair out over it.

Highlight their morons, not ours. Highlight their misdeeds, not ours.

Yes, I don't want to become like Kos or whatever. But Kos isn't Kos because of what it ignores or chooses not to report. It's Kos because of the lies and shit it spreads.

132 And mcg must be new to this site..........

133 Ace,

You are 100% right on this.  Just my two cents.

134 Ace,

I love you, man.  Please keep it up.

We do need to be angry at McCain for being a pussy and trying to be "respectful" but these jackasses are not helping in any sense of the word.

135 I'm out.  Just say no to monkey's.

136 The "monkey man" did a really stupid and insensitive thing.  The poster(s) running rampant in your blog did a really stupid and insensitive thing.

The MSM will do a really stupid and insensitive thing over the next 24 hours when they nationally broadcast any one "monkey man" showing his ass for all to see.

I get your point.  There are a few ass-clowns within any group.  However, I disagree with the strong reaction to all, against a very few.  Let's leave that to the MSM.

One [ass-clown and his] monkey don't stop no show.

137 Hey, now Drudge has Monday Gallup showing 50%-45%

138 Well, we should hold ourselves to some standards. Again: we don't have to play their game.

Fine. Spend your time whining about some idiot in the audience. And while you waste your time on that, they'll complain about 20 other things as well. You can't win playing defense.

139 I think it's okay to talk about it. However, this is exactly what Obama and his obots want us to talk about. They don't want us to talk about his association with ACORN, etal. Right when all of the explosive ACORN info, his communist cousin in Kenya, is coming out more in the public, this comes up. Seems like it is no coincidence.

140 35 Also.

Let me see...

Obama supporters fire bomb McCain signs.
Palin haters wear "cunt shirts to the hockey game"
Obama supporters write "slavery" on GOP headquarters.

Let's not forget:
Trig truthers
Tasergate
Rep. Lewis says McCain = George Wallace
All of those feminazi columnists and their bile directed at Palin
Katie Couric's and Charlie Gibson's "gotcha-question" hatchet jobs
and I could go on and on...

but no...

that one toothless moron with a Curious George doll... yep, that's a real shotgun blast to the face.  Let's pack it in.

141 DrewM,

The point I was trying to make, is that there isn't anyone defending this action.

The reason I love being a conservative is that we are introspective but not to the point of destructive.

Lorien was simply saying point out their flaws!

142 Yeah, I'm not a regular. I mean, you can search for my comments, I've made a few here and there, but not much. I comment most frequently on Althouse, where I give as much shit as I get. But at least the blog hostess isn't whining about it.

But maybe the fact that I'm not here as often means you and/or Ace ought to take my opinion more seriously, not less. If he is so damn concerned about the impressions people make on others he might want to consider the impressions he himself makes on outsiders, too.

143 Just to clarify a misunderstanding,

I am angry.  Very angry.

I am angry about my retirement savings--all I have to live on because apparently I can't work anymore.  They are evaporating.  And I can't do anything about it.  I should have had enough to live the rest of my mlife and had some left over.  Not going to happen.  I want somebody to have a credible plan for doing something about that--to stop the slide or maybe even reverse it.

I am angry that I can't put a sign up in my yard or a bumper sticker on my car.I want to hear about a plan to make it safe to have an opinion again.

I am angry that money I pay to doctors and hospitals is going to lawyers and dead beats.  I want to hear a plan to do something about thqat.

I am angry that my tax dollars are going to buy baby-killings for deadbeats that won't even get a job.

And so on.

See the pattern?

Noting in there about birth certificates, or who porked who.

Take a breath.  Step back.  Look at the problem.  Start up again.

144 Ace, I say hunt the they guy down.  You have video.  Get it pasted all over PA blogs and found out who he is.  Get him confronted!!!  That's what a real news organization would do before.  Find out what's really going on and nail him on it.

145 You can't win playing defense.

To be fair, I do agree with that. I just think Ace is engaging in too much hyperbole to placate liberals: just saying it's bad isn't enough, we have to feel bad about it!

146 Oh, and let me also be clear. I think the Monkey Man is a complete idiot and an embarrassment to the McCain campaign (no thanks to the MSM, who isn't going to allow him to be the outlier fuck he is.) But Ace is the one tying this guy, trolls on his blog, and people "venting angry shit" all in one neat little package. I refused to be linked with an asshole like Monkey Man, but if Ace insists on doing so, he's taking himself down with the ship too.

147 Oh, wait - you gave up.  I forgot.

Move along.

148

>The point I was trying (and failed) to make is that any reasonable person, after watching that news footage, would conclude that it's just one crank who doesn't speak for all McCain voters.

 

Bu that's just it: this campaign is very short on reasonable people. The people who run this clip on the news 1000 times tomorrow aren't reasonable. The columnists who will rant against it, and be interviewed on TV , aren't reasonable.

Reason's got fuck all to do with the whole fucking campaign.

149 This election cycle is insane. It's not even popcorn-eating fun any more. My stomach hurts.

150

This is a tactic to get McCain and Palin to shut up.

Yup. Just when McCain starts to push a little on Obama's coterie of scumbag friends, out pop the rethuglicans right on cue acting all racist and evil. McCain should be sending people with camcorders to follow these assholes back to their happy little homes, the ones with the Obama placards lining their walkways.

Having said that, yes, there are the odd flaming assholes on the right, but count me among those who think there's a real danger in letting the opposition direct the narrative. There are a whole lot of idiocy examples on the other side that get buried by the press and, as a matter of practice, we should never even discuss one of our idiots without mentioning two or three of theirs at the same time.

151 >>>I get the logic that it's okay to call Bush a chimp, and it's horrific to call Obama a monkey, because of the racism.  It's also a massive double standard.  And it's bullshit.  And I won't let anyone convince me that the two are qualitatively different.  If it's a thought crime to refer to Obama as a monkey, it should've been every bit as bad to refer to Bush as a chimp.  Period.

God, you just don't get it.

Do you get we have 24 fucking days left, Qwinn?   24.  And rather than avoiding ALL Monkey Scandal Talk which distracts us from what we need to do, you want to have a nice, long extended argument about Principles and whether there's a Monkey Double Standard.

Fucking FOCUS, people.

Hey, you know what?   WE CAN HAVE THE FUCKING MONKEY DOUBLE STANDARD DISCUSSION IN DECEMBER.

152 Dude, how many "Kill-the-Pope and the Prez" nihilist assholes are present in every Obama rally? How many murderers on death row support Obama? How many Stalinists support the big "O"? How many pedophiles support McCain? How many UFOlogists support Kucinich? Um, I don't know.

300 million people in America, alot of them are assholes. Point is, if you go out looking for monsters, monsters you will find. The media is looking for monsters. Well, it's not hard to find them.

This is all bullshit, media-induced sanctimony. The media is, just like in the Iraq war, the enemy. Respond accordingly.

153 Yes I agree that the guy with the fucking monkey was an idiot and doing shit like that detracts from the McCain/Palin ticket by the way the MSM will run with it.  But it's tame compared to the vile shit that the left has gotten a free pass on when they've done it to Condeleeza Rice, Clarence Thomas and Michael Steele.  But knowing that the double standard exists means that we should be smart enough not to go there.

Life ain't fair; who'd a thunk?

154 Posted by: lorien1973 at October 12, 2008 11:26 PM (ddGv/)

You know what coaches talk about? Things that can cost them a win. They then try to eliminate as many of them as possible.

Let me ask you a question...have there not been enough posts on this site taking Obama to task? Or pointing out the perfidy of the Democrats and the media? 

So there are a couple of posts taking some jackasses on the right to task and we spend the whole night arguing about it? Why fight Ace on this? Do you really think he's not fighting enough for McCain? Maybe he's earned the right to critique our guys, no?

I can't imagine how much time and effort it takes but trust me, it's a lot. I know it's a lot because it takes me quite a bit of time and effort to write a couple of mediocre posts a week.

I could write a Jack M. epic poem length comment about what Ace has been doing on behalf of McCain but I won't because he doesn't like it when people write nice stuff about him. Besides you've seen it on the page so you know. 

155 I'd also like to add:

For fuck's sake, people.  McCain just got directly compared to George Wallace.  BEFORE monkey man came out.  He has said nothing to even remotely justify that.  If there -wasn't- a guy with a monkey, they'd -still- be sprouting that bullshit.  It is a 100% waste of time for us to focus on this guy.  The media will demonize us anyway.  If they're not given something like this guy, they'll make something up.  Enough with the circular firing squad.  Point the guns at the people actually shooting at us.

Qwinn

156 Oh and one two more things.  Ace, please read this one.

1) You bought into the astroturfing again.  I just got done talking with a friend acquaintance on the left that can't keep his mouth shut and he is bragging about how infiltrating McCain events is the new astroturf method of the left and that he thinks they are making headway with the anger argument.  This is a coordinated effort with the Obama campaign and sympathetic media contacts.

2) Take your bi-polar meds.  You went from depressed to victorious to depressed again all in a short 2 day period.  I understand your agnst, but in your anger you are missing the big picture on what actually is happening here.  Please focus and be ready to continue the fight tomorrow.

157 #107. I won't "shut them up". It's a free country.

But I will observe them, and do what I can to identify them' if pictures are permitted they would get theirs taken, as would the people that are near them. Record them. Try to talk to them afterward.

If I were lucky enough to manage it, I'd record the vehicle they depart in and the people they depart with.

158 It is going to be very difficult to carry on a debate or discussion in this country until we again develop of group of people that we all trust to moderate it and to do some investigation and serious fact-checking.

I wonder how long it will take the press to realize that they sold their sole birthright for a mess of pottage called Obama.

159 I'm with Ace to the extent people would actually put themselves and their preferred candidate in such a bad light we should all shame the offenders. Our side is generally better in that we can be shamed. The Left has largely given up that particular emotion.

That said, we cannot know if this guy was serious or not. The press will make it a big deal if they can.

THE IMPORTANT BIT IS THIS:
The people in the crowd around him should have shamed him into stopping. They should have actively told him to quit being an idiot. Perhaps nobody was watching him but if the clip shows the surrounding crowd (I haven't watched it yet.) and nobody is reacting negatively, that says something really quite bad about the tenor or the event.

If the camera angle is always narrow, my suspicion is that those around the guy were demanding he stop. The press could easily manipulate the shot if it wished to do so.

160 Ace, it's been a brutal week.  Obi has the whole MSM and tons more money on his side so we feeling the effects in the polls-as the Dems and the pollsters want us to.   Both sides are edgy and reactionary so close to election day.   Many of us have lost money in the market in the last weeks...another stresser.   I think we have to take a deep breath and remember that we have young people in our armed forces deployed every day to fight for our freedom and, we have not been hit since 9/11.   No one can take that away from us, this country, those young people, our military leaders, or from GW Bush.  Let me ask you-how much do money problems matter if we or our loved ones have been killed in an office building or on a passenger liner in a terrorist attack?  And there are Americans everywhere who quiety go about their lives and work and will walk into the ballot box and pull the lever very confidently because of the information about the Dem candidate and the election you, and many others have given them that they could not get from the MSM or Hollywood, the congressional spin, or anywhere else.  I live in Indiana.  There is a power here in the solid work ethic and midamerica outlook.   I say-hold on to hope.   Your work here in this blog is not in vain.    

161 I'm afraid that the next few weeks are going to be nothing but this type of shit.
Obama's ego cannot handle that he is not winning in a landslide, so now the charges will come hot and heavy to shame anyone on the fence to vote for him.

Like I said before, I don't suffer from white mans guilt.  But there are lot of brainwashed individuals out there that do, and these types of things are directed right at them.  As to why no one ripped that monkey out of his hands...  I don't really have an answer.  I can say that someone at the McCain camp needs to get on the ball and make sure it does not happen again, and the people at the rallies need to be on the lookout.

K

162 >>This is a tactic to get McCain and Palin to shut up.

>>>Yup. Just when McCain starts to push a little on Obama's coterie of scumbag friends, out pop the rethuglicans right on cue acting all racist and evil. McCain should be sending people with camcorders to follow these assholes back to their happy little homes, the ones with the Obama placards lining their walkways.

Yes, and it's working a little bit.  Hey, here's an idea:  Let's not just push back, but also reduce the ammunition the other side uses to shoot at us!

Or is that too illogical and too much of a concession?

You know, if Rush Limbaugh  said this tomrrow, we'd have not one  problem along these lines left.

I don't mean that his audience is full of these people or anytning. I mean he talks to 30  fucking million people. if he says "Hey, watch it at rallies, you are not the star of the the show, do not embarrass the candidates," that would mean every conservative got the message in a few day's time.

163 You know what coaches talk about? Things that can cost them a win. They then try to eliminate as many of them as possible.

They also talk about exploiting the other side's weakensses.  They're not exclusive.

164 or --> of

165

lorien, so the sum of your argument is that the liberals act like unhinged children, so conservatives should too?

I don't like hanging around with unhinged children.  I don't want my president acting like an unhinged child.  See, the president is my husband's commander in chief.  If he is an unhinged child, he is quite likely to send my husband off on some errand that could quite likely get him killed.

Most Americans don't like unhinged children, and most Americans don't like those who encourage unhinged children to go into meltdowns in public.  Just because you think it's HILARIOUS and that it takes REAL BALLS to act like a lunatic in public doesn't mean most Americans agree with you.

And winning elections is all about getting most of the voters to agree with you.

I never thought that was a difficult concept.

166 I think Qwinn would make an awesome monkey!

167

Where was the MSM when 99% of our "anti-war" protesters were openly displaying their unwavering hatred of America, Jews, capitalism,  traditional families, ALL American soldiers, etc.?

I saw their filth quite clearly at zombietime.com.....Did the media just happen to miss it?

Where is the MSM's coverage of all the swill we see daily at DemocraticUnderground and DailyKos?

We obviously have two standards at work here....

If you're a liberal,  you're allowed to go on national television and wish death on the President, conservative Supreme Court Justices, all conservative members of the House and Senate, and all American soldiers....

If you're a conservative, you're not allowed to mention the Left's unhinged hatred, or disagree with their positions, lest you be revealed as "racist".

We AREN'T going to be able to peaceably live with our Leftist counterparts, are we?

Hmmmm.

Hope some of you folks take up reloading.... 

 

168 Hey, here's an idea:  Let's not just push back, but also reduce the ammunition the other side uses to shoot at us!

That's the best articulated plan in the whole thread, ace.

I suggest putting that in the main post.

169 #148

Obviously, if our side is attacked over this, then we fight fire with fire and remind our opponents of their absolutely insane and unhinged behavior.

That's why I think it would be extremely foolish of the MSM to try to make a big deal about this.  They've already pissed away their credibility by going after Palin with 1000x the vigor they used to vet Obama.  Now they're going to throw a hissy fit over a stuffed animal with a sticker on it?

Sorry, maybe I'm a moron in the non-AoSHQ sense of the term, but as offensive as that man's actions were, I don't see them having a meaningful impact.

170 Posted by: Hongqi at October 12, 2008 11:30 PM (+WuMm)

Lorien says he wasn't defending the guy and I take him at his word but I don't think my reading of his statement was entirely out of left field. I get however that blog comments are sometimes short hand and don't always reflect ones full thoughts, so no big deal.

That said, I get not wanting to spend a lot of time harping on 'our' side but as I said above, I don't think two entire posts in the course of this campaign is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the output of Ace and to a lesser extent others on this blog.

A little perspective is in order is all I'm saying.

171 The Dow Futures are up 187 points for Monday. If we can have a week of not getting pounded, and only down by 5% in the polls, and still have a debate to go....

172 the crowd around him should have shamed him into stopping

How many do you think were really policing their neighbor?

Once again, we were wrong for one moron. Not the good moron type.

Ever been to a concert and tried to police the crowd...thought not.

173 I don't think it makes any real difference whether some idiot on our side hands them ammunition, or if the media just manufactures it (via lying).  Its effects are precisely the same on people who give the media any credence in the first place.

Qwinn

174 Ace, I agree with you on that. It seems that Obama has lost at least 5 points in the polls since Sarahcuda started pointing out just who he is. Drudge has rasumssen tomorrow at O50 M45. People don't like who Obama really is and we need to figure out how to keep telling them without the rhetoric from the crowds.

175 You know what coaches talk about? Things that can cost them a win. They then try to eliminate as many of them as possible.

Unless McCain is going to strip search everyone at every rally and muzzle them, you can't do anything about it. Obama can't either. Why are we spending time on our idiots. When their idiots are a hundred times more plentiful.

Yes. Eliminate the mistakes, fine. But you cannot have a perfect campaign. And, on the whole, McCain-Palin supporters are -far- more civil than Obama supporters. Agree?

Let me ask you a question...have there not been enough posts on this site taking Obama to task? Or pointing out the perfidy of the Democrats and the media? 

So, on a day where we have "Palin Cunt shirts at a hockey game" "GOP Slavery vandalism" and "firebombed mccain signs" - this is the cream that rises to the top here? Which is worse, really? I don't give a rats ass out a guy and his fake monkey.

So, you want to continue the media's game by not only agreeing with the message they are putting out there? Is that really a smart tactic. Instead, Ace could better spend his time by highlighting far more flagrant abuses by democrats.

Sample post.

Obama supporters wear "Palin is a cunt" shirts. Obama supporters fire bomb mccain signs. Obama accuses McCain of racism again. Oh yeah, McCain guy has a monkey.

So there are a couple of posts taking some jackasses on the right to task and we spend the whole night arguing about it? Why fight Ace on this? Do you really think he's not fighting enough for McCain? Maybe he's earned the right to critique our guys, no?

If your goal is to win; why highlight a few morons of ours? I complain about McCain -constantly- but its almost always constructive - tactics, etc. And Ace is much the same. What's the point of this? Other than to highlight and exacerbate media/democrat talking points?

I'm not fighting Ace on this. I'm just saying. Stop staring at yourself, when the other guys have a lot more, and I mean a lot more, to stare at.

176 Ace is 100% correct on this. We are the front line for our side. We are savvy enough to know that jackassery like this will feed the narrative that the MSM has been DYING to feed.

And now assholes like monkey man and arab lady are loading up the cannons for the other side.

They probably weren't plants but the next hundred jackasses will be, all looking for their own personal macaca moment.

We have to be vigilant, and if anyone's lucky enough to attend a rally Ace's suggestion of screaming loud profanity over the morons is a good one.

177 >>>he Dow Futures are up 187 points for Monday. If we can have a week of not getting pounded, and only down by 5% in the polls, and still have a debate to go....

Yes, things are looking not too shabby at the moment.

178 Ace, we got the spammer back in your rant thread.

179 (Newbie commenter here...)
Ace,
If you're hoping a piano falls on the guy's head, I'm with you, but I hate to see you getting down so much about these idiots.

It reminds me of when Abu Ghraib happened and some were saying the negative publicity could cost us the war.  I'll say what I said to friends then:

If putting underpants on someone's head is going to lose us the war, we could never have won anyway...

180

92

Ace is being sarcastic, right?

 

181 Of course the fact that exposing Obama is working will make the MSM work that much harder to point out that it is racist or something.

182 You know, if Rush Limbaugh  said this tomrrow, we'd have not one  problem along these lines left.
-ace

But he really has to use caution, as that would give credibility to the drive-by narrative.  Suddenly a person in a crowd of thousands supposedly shouting "kill him" into a lone journalist's ear and some tool with an Obama monkey becomes a huge stories on how conservatives are overwhelmed with these people so much that they're putting out public announcements to stop.

It helps the press make it look bigger than it is.  Even your last two posts, you've weighed posting this against the risk yourself, but it can be spun into credibility for their narrative.

183 Nevermind, he's been taken care of.  I should really get on that shit myself, actually...

184 DrewM,

Sure and I agree. I have read enough of Lorien's comments to know that he is a friend. You as well!

I just don't want us to crucify our own in the hunt to be pure.

I should probably just get off this thread, hate fighting with my own.

185 >>>Stop staring at yourself, when the other guys have a lot more, and I mean a lot more, to stare at.

Exactly fucking wrong.  To go back to Drew's team analogy, Step One is end your own mistakes, Step Two is prepare and engage the opponent.

Some people are so determined to Speak No Evil they cannot do Step  One.

Which is elementary.

Instead of heartily saying, "yes, let's get the word out to our bumpkinish fellow partisans and have NO MORE OWN GOALS AND UNFORCED ERRORS," some here are determined to do nothing but engage in excuse  making and apologism.

Because that's how you win -- you studiously ignore your own flaws.

I guess.

186 Ace -

Here's what I don't get.  Why you think the crowd, could, should, or would do anything about the monkey.

And food for thought: When the Kossacks or DUmmies go on a rant about a "false-flag" operation, it's not because they believe that the right-wing is doing something they wouldn't. It's because they think that we do the same underhanded bullshit they do.

In other words, the dude with the monkey was a plant.  His purpose was to either embarrass the Republicans by showing what racists their rallies attract (by getting the monkey on camera), or by showing how violently opposed to Obama Republicans are when the guy got hectored for the monkey.  With a little careful camera-work, the monkey disappears, and all you see is a poor Obama supporter with stickers being heckled, abused, maybe even punched.

And since they've got the media on their side, we can't even screen for plants without the media saying that "McCain grooming crowds for rallies".

And if you really think that  some guy playing moby racist at a rally is going to have an effect compared to, say ACORN, then I think you're overestimating.  The courts in Ohio just said to ACORN "Go ahead and keep registering the Dallas Cowboys offensive line, we don't care."

As uncomfortable as it is, unless the MSM cracks, get used to saying President Obama.  It's going to be a VERY bumpy few years.

187

lorien, so the sum of your argument is that the liberals act like unhinged children, so conservatives should too?

When did I say we should act unhinged? I'm not advocating Ace spread obviously fake rumors and scandal about Obama. I'm saying - instead whining about idiots in your ranks. Whine about idiots in their ranks. Turn the narrative against them. Don't accept it. I didn't realize I was being so complicated, here.

McCain's better argument here is (and he should do a TV ad like this):

Everything we say in opposition of Obama is racism. Fannie Mae? Racist. Spending cuts? Racist. Barney Frank? Racist. Ayers? Racism. Wright? Racism.

Do you want to live in a country where everything you do or say, in opposition to your government, is racism?

The real question is: Why are you all so tempted to not only agree with the media template; but take it to heart and spread it around as if its as  pronounced as they say? Which it's not. In fact, its the Obama camp and supporters that scream racism and act out.

188 Two things can be true at the same time if they are not contradictory.

The point is, "Police our own."

Unless you're saying something that negates that rather obvious statement, you don't have to disagree.  Teams play both offense and defense.

We keep treating individual threads as if they are the whole and not a part.  Most of the posts here do exactly what people are arguing for.

189 People don't like who Obama really is and we need to figure out how to keep telling them without the rhetoric from the crowds.

Just let Palin do her thing.  She's handled every crowd interruption I've seen so far very well.  She can handle it if she sees it.

190 >>>I just don't want us to crucify our own in the hunt to be pure.

I want them to know their antics and anger are  unhelpful.

Why are you so resistant to this? 

You want them to keep on doing it?  then keep making excuses.

191 Hongqi,
I've bounced at bars where multiple people were involved in actual fisticuffs. And I've always managed to win those "arguments" without a scratch. I'm sure I could have "convinced" this guy to "put down the fucking monkey"* if I had "asked" him to "quit being a fucking idiot".

This was a political rally not an Ozfest show. I'm sure I would've won the debate.

*I felt dirty typing that. Is that wrong?

192 Check the newest post on Instapundit. It's about a video provacateur who teach Obama supporters to create this stuff...just what we're talking about.

193 Exactly fucking wrong.  To go back to Drew's team analogy, Step One is end your own mistakes, Step Two is prepare and engage the opponent.

How are you going to eliminate every single idiot at every single rally? Do you really believe we have more morons than they do? I certainly do not.

Simply by arrest count, their idiots far outnumber ours. Maybe that's why every single moron of ours comes under scrutinty? I'm still waiting on the "Palin haters wear cunt shirts" post.

I recognize that the republican party has some morons in it. Hell, we have one at the top of the ticket. But by focusing on that, you are not attacking. If you are not attacking, you are not winning.

After the election, find and string up monkey man. Enjoy.

But by talking about this, you've already ceded a whole day to Ayers,  Wright, etc. And you make it harder to talk about by accepting the concept that your complaints about these topics cause this "racism" to happen. Are you happy about that?

194 Re:

The spammer

I don't care anymore.  The blogosphere is publishing the name.

I will however stop him from posting here again. 

195 Obviously somebody has a personal vendetta with Ace. An IP ban might be appropriate in his case.

On to more positive matters. What kind would be the most damaging type of plant we could put at an Obama rally?

196 BTW, there was a geezer with a curious george monkey at some other event sometime in the not-too-distant past, and much was made of the kerfuffleyness of it at the time.

Is this the same monkey-man?

This story is like deja vu.

I think I need to watch the video.

197

Heh.

Monkey Man?

Yelling "Arab" and other equally stupid things?

Does ANYONE really believe this behavior is coming from the conservatives at these rallies?

Sigh.

Face it, please; when you have a candidate who appeals to "moderates," you'll get a batch of fools in your audience...fools who don't have a single clue as to what a Republican is or how we really behave.

You're not seeing a conservative crowd at these rallies; you're seeing a McCain crowd.  And that, "my friends," is a very big difference.

198 Lorien is an awesome happy talking fun commenter!

Wanna be a co-blogger at Everything's Awesome, Lorien? I like the awesome cut of your jib. It's awesome!

199 Keep these guys away from all McCain/Palin rallies!

http://tinyurl.com/yz5epl

200 Nope, its not the same guy.

201 “I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors,” Barack Obama told a crowd in Elko, Nev. “I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face.”

202

So I guess 8 years of "Chimpy" and 8 years of editorial cartoons drawing Bush as a chimp are to be forgotten.  Maybe the guy is saying that Bush supports Obama?  Maybe he's trying to tie Obama to Bush!  Hey! There's "W" with an Obama sticker on his head! 

 

 

203 Posted by: lorien1973 at October 12, 2008 11:44 PM (ddGv/)

So I guess your answer is yes, you feel there haven't been enough posts attacking Obama, the Democrats and the media. 

I don't know what to tell you then. I don't think the right in general and Ace specifically is going to go all fighting, fighting nutroots for you.

There are several reasons for that I think...

First conservatives tend to more intellectually honest and less tolerant of idiocy than the left. They are about the pursuit of power at all costs, we used to attack them for it, not copy them.  To me, that's a feature not a bug (when done in the right proportions).

Secondly as Ace has pointed out, in his opinion it's simply bad tactics to not say or do anything about it.

204 He's baaaaaack.

Damn, these libs have great manners, don't they?

205 >>136 The "monkey man" did a really stupid and insensitive thing.  The poster(s) >>running rampant in your blog did a really stupid and insensitive thing.

>>The MSM will do a really stupid and insensitive thing over the next 24 hours >>when they nationally broadcast any one "monkey man" showing his ass for all >>to see.

>>I get your point.  There are a few ass-clowns within any group.  However, I >>disagree with the strong reaction to all, against a very few.  Let's leave that >>to the MSM.

>>One [ass-clown and his] monkey don't stop no show.

Let us refer to my earlier post.  Let us not propagate "monkey-man".  Let us propagate anything else, with traction, that furthers our cause.

That being said, I can understand Ace being really pissed about any liable for an asshole that can't reign himself in.

IMO, Ace is right, but communicated too harshly in the current heated political environment.

Back to lurk mode.

206 Nom de Blog,

No, I understood your post and if you were the man standing there to whup ass, cool.

My experience was watching Bruce Springsteen (current freakin' communist) and having zero idea what was happening to my right or left.

That was it.

207 Popcorn at October 12, 2008 11:52 PM (Tha0W)

Yes. I'll add how amazingly coincidental is that the news media is now focusing on these events trying to find that lone idiot now that the Obama camp has started highlighting it.

But, hey. Accept that template Ace. Navel gaze. Enjoy.

Meanwhile, you cede what little battlefield space McCain is actually winning on. Awesome.

208 460 I wonder if the folks who are pissed off and ready to throw every sort of invective towards Obama have ever had a fight with their wife/loved one/family.  There's always something you can think up and throw at someone when you're pissed off.  It seems clever and appropriate at the time.  And maybe, just maybe, it's going to help you win the argument in your mind.

But anyone that hears you bust loose with a shit-screaming tirade will probably have a very different opinion of you the next morning.  And regardless of how sure you were that you got the upper hand you have permanently changed people's perspective about what kind of human being you truly are.

You can win the battles and lose the war based on public perception.   The media is going to gleefully amplify any bullshit spewed by "typical angry Republicans".  Don't feed the fucking beast.

Posted by: Baron Von Ottomatic at October 12, 2008 11:33 PM (4ZOxD)

209 Oh and more from the Obama playbook, there will be a story planted in the near future that the media will run with and subsequently debunk, hoping that they can discredit the coming onslaught.

The buy before the election will be (subject to change based on polling data)

1) Personal attacks have to stop
2) Lies have been told against me
3) I am the one to reunite this country
4) Middle class pandering

Please beware of any story you run with, because one will be coming down the pipe which will be deliberately false.  Unfortunately I do not know what the story will be.  From what I can piece together it will be about an "acquaintance" of his.  My guess is that they will try to wipe all of his associates under the table with a single debunked lie.

210 You even said "awesome" Lorien!!!! I knew you were an awesome happy talker fun commenter! You are perfect for Everything's Awesome!!1!!1!1!!1!!

Awesome! Awesome! Awesome!

You can't spell "Lorien1973" without "awesome".

Well, I guess you can, but it would be even more awesome if you couldn't.

211 Ace (or anyone else interested)...don't mean to threadjack...but is the fact that Obama was listed as a Board Member for a non-profit organization called the Leadership for Quality Education founded and run by Bill Ayers brother from 2004-2006 known information? I've seen some blogs mentioning funding links between the LQE and Obama through other boards Obama was on...but none that state he was a direct board member. So is this news??

I was doing some digging on old archive web sites and found this. It's fairly well hidden but still accessible if you know hot to look. If anyone is interested I can post a link. Or Ace, let me know if you are interested in this and I can email it to you.

212 >>>Does ANYONE really believe this behavior is coming from the conservatives at these rallies?

Yes.

Lorien, thanks to dealing with excuse-makers and apologists such as yourself, I didn't get to post anything else.   I had to spend hours on the proposition that Unhelpful Behavior is Unhelpful.

And many--you most among them -- were very determined to dispute this proposition.

213 I want them to know their antics and anger are  unhelpful.

Why are you so resistant to this? 

You want them to keep on doing it?  then keep making excuses.

Posted by: ace at October 12, 2008 11:50 PM (1WR4H)

It seems quite simple and straightforward to me.  If you want fighting, fighting nutroots, go on over to Michel Savage's message boards.  Or go ahead and join the Stormfront/Revolution Paultards.  You should fit in fine.

214 This sounds too "Macaca" to me.  This was a plant.

Once again, I beg the organizers of these Republican rallies to wet everyone who comes in.  And to those who go to the rallies to watch out for these jerks. 

If you see one, say something. 

If they defy you, get them out of there.  Security might be there for a reason, but the best security is right among the attendees.  Those present should let the plants know they're NOT WELCOME there, or any other rallies, and that we are watching them.  Period.

I share your frustration, Ace.

215 DrewM. at October 12, 2008 11:54 PM (hlYel)

Drew. What's worse?

Sarah Palin cunt shirts.
Slavery painted on GOP headquarters
Firebombed McCain signs
Guy brings a  monkey to a rally.

So I guess your answer is yes, you feel there haven't been enough posts attacking Obama, the Democrats and the media.

Don't put words in my mouth. I understand your point about intellectual honesty. It serves Ace or anyone no good to stare at these morons. It only brings more attention to the problem. Highlight their problems, instead.

First conservatives tend to more intellectually honest and less tolerant of idiocy than the left. They are about the pursuit of power at all costs, we used to attack them for it, not copy them.  To me, that's a feature not a bug (when done in the right proportions).

Yes, I like this too about conservatives.  I love (and I mean LOVE) that we'll kick people out of office for being big spenders, even if it means putting a democrat in office. I like that we are not robots voting for any R on the ticket. It's wonderful. I love that we have differences on issues and are not obsessed with purity of believes. The back and forth make this party stronger. I love that.

But we are in a fight here. You cannot, ever, get rid of all these people. Think anyone who reads this blog will bring a monkey to a rally? I'd hope not. So, Ace whining about it makes the problem seem more prevalent than it really is.

216 It could be a plant.  Or it could be an idiot.

It could be an idiot plant.

Regardless...I think you're right Ace.  These kinds of people don't help us at all...which is why I've decided they're bought and paid for by the left.

217 Just wanna say-thanks Ace.  I  know it's your rep on the line with posts that are challenging and you've been out there in the front lines for weeks.   Ask Patton about grunts that were weenies.  But look at how the ultimate war turned out.      

218 >>>ce (or anyone else interested)...don't mean to threadjack...but is the fact that Obama was listed as a Board Member for a non-profit organization called the Leadership for Quality Education founded and run by Bill Ayers brother from 2004-2006 known information?

Nope, I did not.

Keep digging.

219 I meant "vet" not "wet"...  Dang!

220

McCain's better argument here is (and he should do a TV ad like this):

Everything we say in opposition of Obama is racism. Fannie Mae? Racist. Spending cuts? Racist. Barney Frank? Racist. Ayers? Racism. Wright? Racism.

Do you want to live in a country where everything you do or say, in opposition to your government, is racism?

Lorien,
So your idea is to hand the election to Obama? Look you are living in a dream world if you think that would work. People are scared and angry that their 401(K)s have gone in the shitter. They don't care what will look like a political food fight and it's one McCain can't win.

He's going to have to make the arguments on the merits of policy and Obama's beliefs not on "Obama is a sneaky bastard and the media loves him". All that line will do is get you another 1/2% of Republicans and turn off everyone else.

221

Hey, you know what?   WE CAN HAVE THE FUCKING MONKEY DOUBLE STANDARD DISCUSSION IN DECEMBER.

Sure.  And we will.  We do after every election when nobody is listening.

The guy at the rally who said "kill him, he's a terrorist" was to my ear talking about Ayers who McCain had just finished talking about.  But the media spun it as an attack on Obama and McCain being McCain, he folded and blamed his own team instead of turning the focus on a domestic terrorist who killed Americans.  This is "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" McCain.  This is "hey did you notice Chelsea Clinton looks like Janet Reno" McCain.  I'm not sure I need a lecture on proper comportment from John McCain.

Sure, we can talk about monkeys and macacas and Chimpy McHaliburtonBush after the election.  Nobody will listen and the line about what is acceptable for us to say versus them will get moved further down the field.  I get that we have chuckleheads on our side who say dumb things.  I get that we are not a conservative majority country and you often have to run moderating your views to win ( I think I have been making that very point for over a year now ).  I also get that it is a tactic of the left to scream racist if the wind shifts 2 degrees and every time we allow them to set the agenda on what we are allowed to say our ability to win gets smaller and smaller.

This is exactly the crap team Barry pulled on Clinton during the primary.   Bill Clinton is a racist!  Bill Clinton is many things but nobody but Barry ever called him a racist and he got away with it.  There are millions of Hillary supporters voting for McCain because of the lies Barry told about her.

I live in a blue area and this is the shit they pull all the time.  No matter what you say you are a racist and a hater.  They understand that they control the agenda by doing this.  Thats how they managed to mau mau the Congress into this CRA bullshit.  There comes a time when you have to stand up and say, bullshit. You are not going to twist every little thing into a racial or class warfare attack.  Reagan got this and he was able to go around the media filter and have a frank conversation with the American people about "welfare queens driving Cadillacs", his exact term, and win with it.

I understand your reluctance to have crap on your blog about an unsubstantiated rumor about Obama.  Your blog, your rules.  But don't you think it would be nice if the New York Times had shown the same amount of restraint when reporting about McCain having an affair with a lobbyist on their front page?

We can talk about it after the election.  It won't mean shit but we can talk about it.

222 One last thought before bed:

The left is involved in a massive game of tu cocque against a made-up tu.

They invade Republican rallies and do embarrassing things because they really believe that's what Republicans do.

They firebomb Republican offices and signs, again, because they really believe that's what Republicans do.

Ace, you've fallen for a false-flag operation.  One that was probably planned and coordinated with the media (I'm speculating, of course, but it's the obvious answer).  In other words, you are talking to the wrong people about getting the bullshit to stop.  And the people you ought to be talking to won't listen.  They'll be too busy shouting about how Republicans are invading their rallies to listen.

223 Ace, really, you may just need to shut down comments for a few days.  Let the nutters find a home elsewhere.

224 It gets worse, Ace.  Did you see this article linked by Professor Reynolds?

"A Barack Obama supporter in Ohio with deep roots in Democratic politics — and a 2001 sex-related felony conviction to his name — is behind two new confrontational videos that bait ignorant people into calling Barack Obama a terrorist."

Nice supporters Obama has, don't you think?

225 >>>Meanwhile, you cede what little battlefield space McCain is actually winning on. Awesome.

Speak no evil, Lorien.  Speak, hear, and see no evil.

You know what else people love?

Being bullshitted.

Barbelle,

By the way, just so you know, yes, a conservative a while ago was selling Obama  Monkey T-shirts, and some idiot recently thought it would be a good idea to sell Waffles  with Obama as Aunt Jemima.

Your belief in the sophstication and savvy of ALL your fellow conservatives is touching, but I'm afraid it's misplaced.

226 Don't put words in my mouth.

Lorien,

I didn't. I asked you as yes or no question about whether you thought there weren't enough posts attacking Democrats. Your response was to list three things you wanted to see posts on attacking Democrats.

What other inference was their to draw?

227 ace at October 13, 2008 12:00 AM (1WR4H)

I apologize, Ace. Resume your navel gazing. Playing defense is definitely a good strategy.

228

lorien: "How are you going to eliminate every single idiot at every single rally? Do you really believe we have more morons than they do? I certainly do not."

We can eliminate the idiots by excommunicating the idiots. If an idiot shows up at a rally and everyone else rises up as one and says, "he's a plant", then the media is forced to cover clumsy thuggish sabotage by O.

As it is, when regulars here who should know better start defending the monkey, the media gets an angle to chin-pull that there are troubling racists in the McCain campaign whom conservative christians ought to be concerned about.

In short, you're not helping, and that is why you are getting teased by the Awesome Happy Fun Guy!.

229

Lorien,
So your idea is to hand the election to Obama? Look you are living in a dream world if you think that would work. People are scared and angry that their 401(K)s have gone in the shitter. They don't care what will look like a political food fight and it's one McCain can't win.

He's going to have to make the arguments on the merits of policy and Obama's beliefs not on "Obama is a sneaky bastard and the media loves him". All that line will do is get you another 1/2% of Republicans and turn off everyone else.

Posted by: DrewM. at October 13, 2008 12:01 AM (hlYel)

Yes, that is lorien's idea.  I'm glad somebody else has now noticed that.

230 You know what? Ace is starting to sound more and more like Church from the web series Red vs. Blue. In fact, when I read Ace's post nowadays, I hear the voice of Church in my head as I read.

Which is both totally cool, and a little creepy. Maybe I need to get more sleep.

Anyway, since obviously my impressions carry more weight than reality, Ace's girlfriend is, in fact, "Tex" from the same series.

Which means y'all have better wise up, or she's going to rip out your skulls and beat you to death with them.

Seriously, I think Palin's up to it, not sure about McCain, but if I were on a stage giving a political speech and one of my "supporters" was waving a toy monkey simulacrum of my opponent, I'd just point it out and deconstruct what they were trying to do.

You know, like, "Hey, look, there's a monkey!" (laughter) "And he's holding some kind of plush toy..."

Okay, that wasn't serious, but I'd point out that the monkeyboy was being classless and tasteless and should really think twice before they claim to be representing someone else's views, because I don't think Obama's a monkey that's been strategically shaved and placed in a suit. No, my friends, Obama may be a lying cockbite who voluntarily associates with unrepentant terrorists, and takes huge bribes from corrupt mortgage brokers (which one, you ask?), and campaigns for foreign dictators (which one, you ask?), but he is definitely NOT a monkey.

231 Some where, some how, some body has got to stop reacting to the stink, or we will be reacting to the final vote tallies and not liking them either.

Some where, some how, some body has got to get some strong words in about what we are going to mdo to deal with the things Joe Six Pack (and Freddy Filet) care about.

And it is NOT who wore what, or who porked who.

It is about taxes, terrorists, and tomorrow.

And Andrew Sullivan and the rest of the LSM don't really have much to do with it.

232 DrewM. at October 13, 2008 12:05 AM (hlYel)

Maybe I'm confused. I didn't realize this blog was supposed to be "balanced" . If this is simply the token "I agree that republicans are racists" entry to supply balance to the world; then mission accomplished.

/sarc

Still missing some, you know, actual perspective though. But I suppose that doesn't matter.

233 ACE ACE ACE ACE ACE ( I don't know how to do the red thingie)

Read this blog post
and watch the youtube on the page and farging TELL ME this is not an astroturf attack.

I call fakery, seriously.

If not this person can be identified.

The blogger bewails the cries of ""Terrorist!", "Off with his head!" and "Kill him!" at the very mention of Obama's name"

Is it not the case that these things were actually shouted out at the mention of *Ayers*?

234 >>>Nice supporters Obama has, don't you think?

Selective reading on your part.  Yes, he "baited" them into saying it, but guess what?  They said it.

They said it.

There is no spin you can put on that.

And it is not helpful.

And some people just want to make excuses instead of conceding, "Hey, maybe you're right, maybe this is pretty unhelpful shit and people should behave with a bit more savvy.  Maybe we should all accept we have been drafted into the Media War, and behave according to a stricter code of conduct than, um, civilians are allowed, to stretch the analogy further."

Nah.

Instead let's argue about it.  It's productive and fun to argue about obviously-true propositions.

235

There was an incident in the Cuban Missile Crisis that comes to mind. Basically, the Soviets sent two conflicting messages to Kennedy at a critical point, and Kennedy had to decide which cable to respond to- a tactical decision that lead to a breakthrough. Kennedy responded to the message he could use, and the other 'didn't exist'.

We might take a lesson from that. Plough straight ahead on message. The cries of 'racism!' and 'a guy had a monkey at a rally!' are just arrows that bounce of the hull of the tank. Keep firing rounds stenciled AYERS WRIGHT REZKO FANNY MAE ACORN. Let the arrows bounce off.

236

Yes.

Why?

237 Dreagon at October 12, 2008 11:52 PM (wk5RZ):
On to more positive matters. What kind would be the most damaging type of plant we could put at an Obama rally?

"I'm a proud member of NAMBLA, and I'm voting for Barack Obama! Whoooooo!!!!"

238 He's going to have to make the arguments on the merits of policy and Obama's beliefs not on "Obama is a sneaky bastard and the media loves him". All that line will do is get you another 1/2% of Republicans and turn off everyone else.

Which he's not doing. And probably won't do. All McCain has, right now, are these Ayers, Wright etal things. And you all want to cede that battlespace? Cuz of monkey guy.

Geesh.

239 Ace:

I have been out most of the day, so I missed most of the fireworks earlier.

But, that spammer asshole is back on your "Gallup" thread, and I wanted to leave a cogent (for me) comment about the practice of using two sets of "Likely" models, so if I may, I'll do it here. And if I am repeating something already mentioned, I apologize.

Gallup and the AP/Ipsos did that same thing in 2004, where in the last 2+ weeks of the race, they started doing 2 sets of "LV" models, one based on traditional turnout, and one based on a made up belief by pollsters that the "cell phone only" youths would turn out in droves. We know what happened then.

Look, I know it's different now, and the stupid shit with the monkeys and "Arab" comments is only helping Barry, mobys or not. But, if the LV models are as close as they are, even in the Hope Juice model, it just means we have to keep clawing.

240 From the first 56 posts, here's my count.
2 joke
6 off-topic
3 moron
1 asshole
6 idiot
1 putz
1 antisocial
1 bad-apple
1 brain-dead
1 conscienceless
1 dummy
1 douche bag
1 dope

1 guerilla (pun-not-intended!)
1 “I’d do something if I was there”
8 “they do worse things” (as rationalization, not defense)
2 “some never get it” (as rationalization, not defense)
9 “plant”
9 “stop following the MSM lede”
1 “something fishy”
3 “Why are we navel-gazing this, exactly?” (lorien)
1 “We’re so upset we’re crazed”

Lorien's the closest to 'defense', and it's mostly of the "How the fuck do stop a lone moron/gunman/terrorist" variety. (Answer: You damn well step up if you see it actually in progress. But otherwise there's not a fucking thing you can do about it.)

I'll repeat my pledge to demonstrate my free-speech rights vigorously if I'm ever in the presence of such an idiot. i think we're up to about five of that sort of pledge, but this thread grows faster than I can type

241 Ok Ace. Just sent you an email. This Board membership is not listed on Obama's Wikipedia page or any other Bio that I can find...and Ayer's brother's group conveniently merged with another related non-profit in the middle of 2006...so I guess it hasn't been on anyone's radar.

242 Umm, "wet" vss vet worked for me, Newton.

243 Farg Ace, tiny url hate and anger is brewing in a disturbing way.

KILL IT!

But here is the blog link
http://tiny.cc/EbOQG

and the you tube link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkFG1ebuKZU

244 Oh yeah-he's a plant. Obama supporters certainly don't have the exclusive patent on stupidity and ignorance but by sheer volume of idiots, the odds are pretty great he is a troll patrol. better odds on the house in Vegas you won't find!Let's face it, the your a racist because you sneezed wasn't working at all and never worked 

245

There's no point in being nice to lorien any more.

Lorien, you imbecile, the election "battlespace" isn't being fought on whether or not it's okay to compare a BLACK MAN to a fucking MONKEY. At least, it wasn't, until jerkoffs like yourself decided to waste our time doing that.

246 Please click the links mentioned in post 233
but which appear in post 243

I'm sorry it took me a ten-post internal to get those links up.

I am taunting tinyurl with monkeys.

247 245:

Wasting time and energy over a monkey at a rally with Lorien is as fruitless as trying to win an argument with your wife, even if you are right.

248 Havent you guys ever heard of the Rally Monkey? 

249 You are all now 70% more likely to actually have words with an idiot like this guy at a rally than you were a few hours ago, I hope.

I am. Not that anyone would listen to Holly Hobbie over here.

250 I don't see why this is being made into such a big deal.  The guy, whether genuine or a plant is an idiot, it's as simple as that.  Note your opposition, ask fellow travelers to do something about this if they see it at a rally, and move on.  No point wallowing in it and friendly firing your own side over something like this.  Yes we (mostly) have a conscience and abhor such behavior while the other side relishes it, that's our choice.  Yes, the media and dems (same thing, I know) will make a big deal about this while ignoring the far bigger and greater problem on the left but that's the battlefield on which we fight.   This is too big of a fight to be so seriously distracted by something like this, admit it, disavow it, and get back to fighting.  Our side is probably going to take a hit from the new media narrative and this idiot but that's life on the battlefield.  We're under fire in no man's land so our only option for victory is to go forward.  We've got 23 days left, we have no hope if we go scurrying back to our trenches in shame because of this idiot.

251 being fought on whether or not it's okay to compare a BLACK MAN to a fucking MONKEY

You are part of the problem. You must lack reading comprehension! No one, even with the fighting, has suggested this line of reasoning.

252 Posted by: David Ross at October 13, 2008 12:14 AM (cuBZZ)

This isn't about monkeys and comparisons to black people. Don't be obtuse.

This about the media saying "McCain discussing Ayers/Wright/etal incites people into racial tantrums"

That's the talking point that they are trying to develop. And, apparently, Ace and many commenters agree with that sentiment.

253 Ace,

I'm talking about the guy who's setting the video traps.

254 I think I'm with Krauthammer's assessment.

255 " Not that anyone would listen to Holly Hobbie over here."

I would Joanie. You had me at "flaming pie". You complete me.

256 What are we allowed to mock a (God forbid) President Obama with?

What a stupid fucking question.

Anything not race-related.

257 Again, ACE ACE ACE like a loser I am posting this "extra" footage of monkey man, staged for protestors benefit, I believe.

If I'm flat wrong, about the fakery, it will still lead to the monkeymans identification.

And the blog post itself is just kind of...gimmicky.

258 But here is the blog link
http://tiny.cc/EbOQG

and the you tube link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkFG1ebuKZU

259 Oh screw it. I'm going to bed.

260 Plant or clueless moron who thought it would be funny, that is the question.

But the ultimate takeaway is how easy it is to scare the conservative/republican herd with the cry of racism. It takes one stupid incident to cause a whole battalion of us to retreat and start bickering with each other. Therein lies the power of Obama and his MSM.

If Sen McCain had any sense by now, he'd answer those attacks of racism with this: "Two words; Robert Byrd". Game. Set. Match.

261 Daryl Herbert at October 13, 2008 12:21 AM (YvLui)

Bringing up issues is already race related. According to some Obama supporters. What won't be race related in 2009?

Fight it now, or lose the ability to fight later.

262 Posted by: lorien1973 at October 13, 2008 12:18 AM (ddGv/)

No it's about the fact that Ace knocks a guy for making a vile racial symbolic statement (or joke if you want to be charitable) and you go off as if all this blog does is attack Republicans.

Look at the front page right now. Going back to Thursday there are 3 posts that could be considered 'naval gazing' by you (this one, the previous one and a piece on FNC over hyping the impact of Ayers on their poll), there are about 10-12 non-political ones and the other 50 or so attack Obama, Democrats or the media.

Yet to read your comments, a person might think it's 'all attacks on Republicans all the time' here.

263 What makes this incident suspicious is the following. I went to a Palin rally last week. Waited 3 hours in pouring rain to get in. The security was tough. Everything searched, metal detectors and nothing could be carried inside except searched purses and camera bags. I forgot to take out a digital recorder I had in my coat pocket and got pulled aside. How did this person get the object through security?

The fact this is happening now means it is a tactic. The people at my rally were enthused and respectful. All 10,000 of them. Nobody could carry anything so how did this guy? Did someone throw it over the fence after he was inside? He sure didn't get it through security. This takes planning. Of course, you'd only know how tight security is if you'd actually attended a rally which most people can't. You can't carry things into the rally. Not even umbrellas. People were having to put them on the ground outside.

I noticed a bunch of Obama vehicles cruising the site of the rally that I went to. Why? Afterwards, there were people outside with signs mocking Joe Sixpack. After the rain stopped of course.

Anyway, this is classic agent provocation. Rather silly too considering the things the Obama people are doing. I'm just saying this guy had help to get that into a rally. That makes it a plan rather than a political statement.

264

gran, even if you think that "nyah, nyah, nyah, the did it first!!!" is a winning political argument (and I don't) we DON'T HAVE TIME TO MAKE IT right now.

Yes, after the election we can pillory the media bias, and the obscene behavior of Obama supporters.  What we need to do NOW is focus on Obama himself.  And McCain and Palin can't get traction doing that if their supporters continue to behave like members of the KKK.

265

Off topic.

Did anyone watch Huckabee tonight or am I the only sucker in the crowd?

Anyway, he claims that a friend of his, very involved in the world of finance in that he owns a financial institution, says that there is now speculation that the markets may be enduring a form of financial terrorism.

Apparently, the goings-on in the last 30 or so minutes each day wherein the majority of trade is conducted online has raised a few eyebrows.

Whose eyebrows he did not say but I wonder if there's anything to it.

266

By the way, just so you know, yes, a conservative a while ago was selling Obama  Monkey T-shirts, and some idiot recently thought it would be a good idea to sell Waffles  with Obama as Aunt Jemima.

"A" conservative did that?  Well, that certainly proves precisely Squat.

Your belief in the sophstication and savvy of ALL your fellow conservatives is touching, but I'm afraid it's misplaced.

Ace. I get you're upset, but your sarcasm lacks in substance and accuracy.  Since when have I ever held a belief that like-minded people can't be dead wrong at times?

If you can't tell the difference between these "Republican" rallies and the rallies from years past, then you need to extend your memory.

267 After I say, hella yeah, he's not so shy for the camera.

He's making sure to get noticed, and taunting the protestors in spite of knowing he's on camera.

268 It's horrible.

Such a person should not be anywhere near the GOP.

So, what, exactly, are we supposed to do about it?

I promise that if I go to a McCain Palin rally and I see any douchebag doing this, I'll shout really loud and try to do anything to him short of getting myself arrested.

What else?

269

What a stupid fucking question.

Anything not race-related.

Could you give us a list of what the acceptable topics are?  I understand from John Lewis that talking about Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn, white murderers, is now racist so I just want to be sure I know where the line is.

270 Oh brother.

Between Ace going apeshit in every other post and the commenters beating each other with poop-smeared tennis rackets, I think I'd be better off not reading this blog until the election is over.

271 >>>That's the talking point that they are trying to develop. And, apparently, Ace and many commenters agree with that sentiment.


Idiot.  I don't agree with that statement, but when idiots you support say  KILL HIM, McCain gets spooked -- guess what, he does not want to be blamed for some fuckng lunatic taking a shot at the first serious black presidential candidate

And I don't blame him.

So keep encouraging it, Lorien. Keep making excuses, and watch McCain continue running away because he can't trust some idiots in the crowd to keep their fool mouth's from saying scary shit.

YOU are part of the problem.

272

You know what guys.  We will still be able to crack funny like after this election is over.  In fact probably more so.  The Dems have a nasty little history of blowing up when they have all three branches.  

If Obama wins, the MSM can retire in November or they can do what they do...report bad news.  The sunshine, unicorns and Camelot stories will be stinky fish wrap very soon.

 

273 >>>I promise that if I go to a McCain Palin rally and I see any douchebag doing this, I'll shout really loud and try to do anything to him short of getting myself arrested.

<<<What else?

Pretty much that's it.  though if anyone calls into talk radio, pitching this as a subject, and warning people to watch their fucking mouths, would be more helpful.

274

No SarahW, he certainly wasn't.  Smug and ignorant come to mind, but not shy.

I don't know why it's so hard to get it that we'd just as soon not have to carry this political fight all the way up Hanburger Hill while lugging this fat idiot behind us.

 

275 >>>>>Selective reading on your part. Yes, he "baited" them into saying it, but guess what? They said it.

Yeah, they did. So what? You can find people who'll say just about anything if you look long and hard enough.

Look, I agree with you in principle. Those people in the video were stupid to let that guy bait them into saying something stupid. But at the same time, you can't just excuse the actions of the guy who made the video in the first place.

Consider this: How many dozens upon dozens of McCain/Palin supporters did he interview that *didn't* fall for his bait, and were thus not included in his little mini-documentary? Does he have anything even approaching proof that this kind of attitude is the norm for McCain/Palin rallies? No, he doesn't.

We all criticized Michael Moore for deceptively editing his "movies" by removing any references to inconvenient facts that contradicted his overall message. I fail to see how this is any different.

276 Ace, please look at that farging moby act at # 243

277

And a general PS:

If this behavior is definitely without a doubt coming from the conservatives at these rallies, then why are we even discussing the possibility of a plant in this case?

278 Ace, you're absolutely right not to tolerate tolerance for the ongoing sabotage of Sen. McCain's campaign.  Don't be shy about banhammering.

There's a 100% chance the guy at the rally was a plant.  The question is, what was his agenda?  A left-winger out to discredit McCain?  A right-winger out to discredit McCain?  Or a racist who wants a megaphone?  The racists want Obama to win this election.  They think it will turn whites against blacks.  David Duke endorsed Obama.

279
Really, Ace, it is admirable of you to try to preempt the inevitable media criticism of Monkey Man by getting out in front of the story by posting this, and I'm glad you did.  I'm not trying to argue with you or your basic premise w/r/t policing ourselves.  Yes, this guy is a jerk.  He thought he was being funny.  He was hideously wrong.  You called him on it, and if the story gets enough attention, then others on our side will call him on it too.

But it was just one guy.  If people start showing up at McCain rallies in droves with monkeys, then we've got a problem.  But until that happens (as if it would) I'm not going to lose sleep over this.

Look at it this way... imagine an historical documentary made 50 years from now about this campaign, with the narrator saying something like this:

"The McCain campaign struggled to find its footing throughout mid-September through early October during the financial market Crash of '08.  But then, just as the polls started to tighten amidst allegations regarding his opponent's various connections to Marxist organizations, McCain's run for the White House was ground to a screeching halt over the infamous Monkey Man Scandal.  At a rally, a local supporter of McCain's, Rube McHickputz, was photographed carrying a Curious George doll with an Obama '08 sticker on its forehead.  McCain immediately crashed to 5% support in the polls and lost every state in the electoral college during the election.

What followed, as most remember, was arguably one of the worst and one of the shortest administrations in the country's history.  Barack Obama was impeached after only 93 days in office when he tried to change the name of the country to the United Socialist States of America.  He also attempted to have the 2nd, 4th, 10th, and 22nd amendments removed from the US Constitution, famously saying 'I don't like those.  They're getting in the way.' "


I don't think so.

280 DrewM. at October 13, 2008 12:24 AM (hlYel)

I'm saying this post is navel gazing. I realize that Ace does the vast majority in support of McCain etal. This is stupid and pointless.

I'm not accusing Ace of anything above and beyond this post, at all.

I see no merit to discussing this; unless you discuss it in context with what obama supporters do. All Ace is doing is completing the media template, "McCain's attacks on Obama inspire racism" - cuz we know that is what they are really saying, isn't it?

But you all agree with that, then wonderful. And we wonder why republicans lose all the time. They curl up into little balls at the most asinine complaints.

281 Yet to read your comments, a person might think it's 'all attacks on Republicans all the time' here.

DrewM,

Look, we all know how hard Ace is working himself and there isn't any accusation. Just a suggestion to slow down a bit and take each plug in this contest with a grain of salt.

If you want to hold up one individual as an example for all, well...

282 This guy was a plant -- it is standard fare crap for Democrat operatives to call in radio shows, post messages on blogs, and yes, show up at rallies with incendiary comments...it's all part of the MSM narrative that conservatives are mean, racist, and bigoted...meanwhile, the true bigots are those on the left, where winning in politics is everything.

283 barbelle,

if people like this are plants, even more reason to confront them, get their names, take their pictures, get their license plates.

So why are we arguing?

Either they're bumpking republicans or obama plants.  Either way we need to do the same -- shut them up or hound them out.  if they turn out to be plants -- GLORIOUS.  Get the proof.   We'll kill them with it.

So again, either way, there's no argument for the "just ignore it" proposition.

284 DAve, no I don't want to lug any more mobys up the hill, either.

Only I don't think you meant it like that. Why did he grow shy of the camera later? I call shenanigans.

If he's for reals, he could be identified now.

285 lorien...it is starting to remind me of the credit card commercial starring armadillo man.....

286

McCain, or Palin, can use this. Again, they can do like Obama, ignore these distractions (certainly don't run their campaign based on them) and say these crackpots don't represent their views, and, as an added plus, they can point out the crackpots at Obama rallies and the fact that the MSM don't report them 24/7. Swish!

And all conservatives and PUMA's can mention these facts everytime they get a chance. I don't think the squishy centrists will bother because, well, they're squishy.

287 Posted by: jmflynny at October 13, 2008 12:25 AM (RrKQ0)

The dollar amounts required would make this just about impossible to accomplish.

Targeted attack, maybe.  Tell me a stock and I can tell you the open positions though.

288
Whoa!

Big spill in aisle 286, Ace.

289

Hell I don't know.  We're speculating, none of us knows whether he's a plant or a dork.  But glad you found that, and I sure as hell hope someony tracks him down and confronts him, to demonstrate he's either a) a dumbfuck, or b) a plant. 

As ace just said, option b?  that'd be glorious.

290 I'm not accusing Ace of anything above and beyond this post, at all.

lorien,

So why get all worked up over one post?

Are conservatives that simplistic that we can't try and keep our own house clean while slamming the others? Are you trying to enforce some sort of orthodoxy that is so stringent it can't stand even one post that goes against the team (though from Ace's perspective it's for the team)?

Did you watch the video of the guy 'Freddy' linked to in comment 87? The guy is an asshole and deserves to be shamed publicly.

We can do two things at once here you know.

291

And yes, I agree, confront these assholes whether they are plants or not!

But don't stop putting the truth out there, Mr. McCain and don't forget that Obama is your opponent.

292 SarahW: I notice on the link in #243 they don't bother to question how he got the toy in the rally (probably after security from his friends the Obots) or whether the sentiment applies to anyone other than him (why think critically?).

My point is, and has been, that we can't win simply by disassociating ourselves from the appearance of "racism" defined by whoever is offended, and it only helps a little to silence critics by fully embracing the death that is liberalism.

293 ace at October 13, 2008 12:27 AM (1WR4H)

You should re-read that. Seriously, dude.

McCain is to blame if someone takes a shot at Obama? This is another meme that they've been starting recently. This started last week. McCain highlighting problems with Obama means he might be killed. You are just falling for their trap.

So, at this point, McCain can only sing happy thoughts about Obama and say how great he is. Apparently, anything else McCain says will incite racism and hate. Keep falling for their template. I definitely see how I'm the problem, now.

I'm not supporting these people at all. What do you suggest? McCain strip search; bind and gag everyone at his rallies? If you want to make sure it doesn't happen, either dump the crowds or do that.

And I'm part of the problem? Step back and think about this. You're too emotional here.

294 <blockquote>Of course, the MSM only reports the conservative ones.</blockquote>
And that's all that matters.  All the rest of the talk here is meaningless.  The MSM controls the horizontal.  The MSM controls the vertical.  Undecided voters are who will decide this.  And undecided voters are the sort of people who know only what they see on TV and read in the papers.  We can hammer on Fannie Mae, ACORN, whatever.  The media will not report it, therefore it's shouting into a vacuum.
Sorry to say this, but does anyone really have any hope we can get any message out to the undecided voters with the MSM cock-blocking us?
Didn't think so.
Maybe next election Obama will have manged to piss off the MSM.  Or enough people will have turned to the internet for information that we'll have a chance.  But not this time.

295

Either they're bumpking republicans or obama plants.  Either way we need to do the same -- shut them up or hound them out.  if they turn out to be plants -- GLORIOUS.  Get the proof.   We'll kill thrash them electorally with powerful arguments and what not them with it.

Keeping it Republican, You!

Hey, I just say Tina Fey on TV say she want to sneak up on Sarah Palin like she was a baby seal and "You know what happens to baby seals".  Heh, heh.

296 Ace, love this site and the morons but you being Alinskied, this shit is very insidious.All they have to do is get you to doubt yourself or your motives or judgement for a second and they've won...you have to outcreate them.  Keep doing what you're doing that you know is right and ignore the other noise

297 So why get all worked up over one post?

I'm not worked up. Not at all. I just see what they are doing. They are saying that McCain's complaints against Obama are sparking hate and racism. They've been building it up for a few weeks now.

And now, they produce quotes every day, video every day, to complete the argument. And instead of fighting back against it (with counter evidence), we take it in and accept the guilt that has been laid before us.

Look at Drudge tonight. Top left links. Perspective. It's utterly hypocritical to argue that McCain is inciting anything. It's stupid on its face.

Yes, I agree. don't bring a monkey to a rally. Great. How are you going to stop someone from doing it? Or yelling something stupid? Or, hell, how are you going to stop a kid from staring at Palin while a photog takes a pic between her legs?

You cannot control everything. Don't accept what they are doing.

298 "You know what happens to baby seals"

They grow up and have sex to make more seals! Seal sex!

299

Look at Drudge tonight. Top left links. Perspective. It's utterly hypocritical to argue that McCain is inciting anything. It's stupid on its face.

You're absolutely right.

Ace, love this site and the morons but you being Alinskied, this shit is very insidious.

Yep.  Instead of just repeating Alinsky, Alinsky, Alinsky everyday, some of you might want to actually read the shit.

300

It's pretty clear that McCain can't figure out a coherent rhetorical strategy to use against Obama.  Now we have to tidy up after every single goofball who decides to barf up something bigoted out on the hustings.  Admitedly, this is not nearly as fun as anihilating Captain Bullshit's political nonsense, but it has to be done. 

Before we whine about how unfair the MSM is towards the right...it was just as bad in 2000 and 2004.  The only difference is the GOP had a candidate that wasn't scared to hit back at his opponent.  That's why this feels worse than in past elections.  We get no cover from the top of the ticket and thus when Obama and his minions call us racists-for legitimate criticisms-we feel left out in the cold by our own party.

It's sad, but we can still help our candidate over the finish line.  It means we're gonna have to police our own ranks though.  Bill Buckley did it back in the day.  Just because the left refuses to do this doesn't mean we on the right should give up weeding out the fucktards on our side. 

301 "YOU are part of the problem."

Well with all due respect, Ace, so are you.

You're putting everyone on the defensive about this by putting all the blame on the stupid extremists and almost no blame at all on the MSM's selective reporting practices.

Was it wrong and stupid for that one guy to use the n-word at a Republican rally? Of course. But he was still only *ONE GUY*. It's just as wrong for the MSM to take that one guy using the n-word and spin it as if the entire event were one big Klan rally.

Extremist idiots are certainly a big problem, but the MSM's biased reporting is also a big problem. AND IT WOULDN'T HURT TO POINT THAT OUT EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE.

302 I did mention a previous "monkeyman" that made the papers, at least locally, here. (Memory is a mofo Bill Ayers abusive mommy) A very old man who had no clue he was being offensive. It caused a minor kerfluff nonetheless.

Perhaps there is a copycat element to this mobyploy.

303

If he was a plant why would he take the sticker off?

He'd display it like the proud racist Rethuglican redneck he's trying to portray.

What if it's just some dumbass that thought he was being funny and when he saw the camera on him realized maybe it wasn't such a good joke after all?

It didn't look like a shit eating grin to me, it looked more like an embarrassed, kid caught with hand in cookie jar face. His face turned red.

304 And now, they produce quotes every day, video every day, to complete the argument. And instead of fighting back against it (with counter evidence), we take it in and accept the guilt that has been laid before us.

Lorien,

That's just nuts.

This blog has covered both the Lewis shit (I know, I posted it) and the firebombings of the signs as well as a lot of other liberal smears. Did you miss all the posts debunking the shit they threw at Palin?

You just can't say Ace (and the rest of us in our own way) isn't fighting back. As Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said, 'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts".

305 JackStraw, I'm asking you this because I respect your opinion.  Not in a serious way, in a gay retard way.

If Ace's argument was boiled down to, "Police our own", would you disagree?

If so, is Ace saying anything else?

Added question, Ace, are you making any sweeping statements beyond, "Police our own".

306

#289 Counter..

It's so surreal that now, what with all the unbelievable b.s. we read every day, that almost anything can now cause a person stop and say "Hmmm?"

Again, it was Huckabee, so, you know, eh.

307 ace, take a look at the latest post from Michele Malkin to see how to deal with this.  I'll give you a hint, you ignore it since it isn't a common sight from the right and attack the left for the real hatred.

Please stop wasting time demoralizing and causing infighting with the base about an Obama plant.  The wanted bad press and infighting, this thread is just a nice bonus.

Take Michele's cue about what the focus should be on.  If that guy got out of control, he would have been shut down.  Hell I wouldn't have thought about the racial implications until you brought it fucking up.  Lets look at the story's facts one at time and finally debunk this crap.

1) The monkey is just sitting there, and the guy is in the back with everyone facing forward.
2) No one is looking at the guy
3) The guy makes contact with the camera and removes the banner, interesting all of a sudden he is ashamed of it and takes an action to gain the most notice of the media.
4) Then he gives it to a kid, to make it seem like we are teaching our kids to be racist.
5) By the time the rally is over AND AFTER THE FUCKING PRESS GOT ITS PHOTO any reference to the monkey and Obama is gone so no one in the audience saw a thing.
6) Screw you all for not putting 2 and 2 together and blaming Conservatives and the other people at the rally and making me RTFA.  Did we all finally turn into true McCain supports instead of actual thinking people from the right and reflexively blame Conservatives first?

308

but the MSM's biased reporting is also a big problem. AND IT WOULDN'T HURT TO POINT THAT OUT EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE.

You've got to be kidding me.  This blog beats the NYT and other majors like a mangy dog, often several times a day.  come on.

309 DrewM. at October 13, 2008 12:55 AM (hlYel)

Maybe it's just a simple argument about form. We are all probably on the same page here. Essentially.

Quite simply. Here's me:

Every time CBSABCNBC etal show a racist McCain supporter, link to every insane/racist Obama supporter as well. Make the point that their nuts are far more prevalent than ours. Republicans on TV will be asked to defend this guy - and they'll look like sheepish idiots (like always) when instead they need to point out what Obama supporters do far more often.

People forget, very quickly, that liberal morons are out there and in greaters numbers. Highlight that. Want to call out conservatives? Fine. I say. Call them all out.

I don't see any point being served in pointing out this guy while not mentioning (same breath) the ones on the other side. Malkin handled his wonderfully at her site today. That's the way to do it.

But, I totally disagree with the overall point they are making, which is (again): McCain's criticisms of Obama inspire racism which may lead to violence. And therefore he must tone it down or stop attacking.

Cuz that is the real point of all of this, isn't it? Of course it is.

This is a meme started in the last week or so and its simply a way to chill our political speech.

310 >>I don't agree with that statement, but when idiots you support say  KILL HIM, McCain gets spooked

While I agree 100% that these idiots aren't helpful and should be actively policed at rallies, I don't believe for a minute that McCain was *ever* going to get truly tough on Obama.  He was talking just the other day about having Al fricking Gore on the Cabinet.  McCain very obviously wants to lose since he knows it's the only way to regain the MSM adoration he craves.  It's up to us to drag him over the finish line kicking and screaming.

311

Ace's site.  Ace's preferences and (ultimately) Ace's rules.

Everything else is just comment thread circle jerking.

Beyond this:  deponent sayeth not.

 

312 mightysamurai:

Extremist idiots are certainly a big problem, but the MSM's biased reporting is also a big problem. AND IT WOULDN'T HURT TO POINT THAT OUT EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE.

Dude, WTF? What else do we talk about? How many times has it been brought up on this thread alone, a hundred or more? How many other threads in the last week, month, and year have been about just that?

Every once in a while? How about every day? How about every day here and on hundreds if not thousands of other blogs, talk radio, yadda yadda yadda...

And unless you have some magic plan to drop alien pods that contain strange, alien objective chroniclers of world events into the closets of all the MSM shills, you're going to have to learn to either stop playing their game (and be shut out) or learn to use their rules against them.

OF COURSE what they're doing is wrong. You can either deal with it, or let us all know how to stop it. And, if you haven't noticed over the last 30 years, saying it ain't so doesn't stop it. "Refusing to play along" doesn't stop it. Demanding they be honest doesn't stop it.

I know, it's so fucking unfair. Deal with it. Or fix it, if you know how, I sure as hell don't know how to get the syphilitic lying press corps to shape up.

313 If monkeyman, arab-terrorist-woman and crazy ohio-rally chick are all plants, then Code Pink is the most brilliant scheme Karl Rove ever invented to discredit goofball liberals.

Damn, people.  Go breathe into a paper bag.  Take a valium.  Jerk off and get some sleep or something.  If you're two touchdowns behind halfway through the fourth quarter, you capitalize on every one of your opponent's fumbles, but you make damn sure you don't make any of your own.  All Ace is saying is "Hey idiots - stop helping, mmkay?"

314 How about:

Every time CBSABCNBC etal show a racist McCain supporter, we denounce that individual as extremely fucking rare then link to 10x insane/racist Obama supporter as well.

1) Police our own.
2) Show that the otherside has a virtual fucking monopoly on this crap.

315 271 >>>That's the talking point that they are trying to develop. And, apparently, Ace and many commenters agree with that sentiment.


Idiot. I don't agree with that statement, but when idiots you support say KILL HIM, McCain gets spooked -- guess what, he does not want to be blamed for some fuckng lunatic taking a shot at the first serious black presidential candidate

And I don't blame him.

So keep encouraging it, Lorien. Keep making excuses, and watch McCain continue running away because he can't trust some idiots in the crowd to keep their fool mouth's from saying scary shit.

YOU are part of the problem.



Posted by: ace at October 13, 2008 12:27 AM (1WR4H)

AMEN

316

If Ace's argument was boiled down to, "Police our own", would you disagree?

No, of course not.  As I said, we have our share of boneheads and assorted idiots who will say stupids things at the worst times.  McCain could be the most obvious example.

But, and this is a very big but, the right has been talking about Alinsky and Cloward Piven for months now and I would be willing to bet that not 1% have actually read the stuff.  The leaders on the left aren't stupid.  Harvard and Columbia may be full of dubious thinking but not stupid thinking.

Cloward Piven preaches manufactured crisis.  This is what they did in NYC by swelling the welfare rolls and bringing the city to the brink of bankruptcy.  Rudy said exactly this when he was forced to deal with it. 

New York Mayor Rudy Guiliani called the Cloward-Piven Strategy “an effort at economic sabotage.” Nevertheless, the strategy worked and led to ACORN’s Project Vote. The Cloward-Piven Strategy and ACORN were major factors in passage of the “Motor-Voter” Act of 1994, which opened a can of worms.

http://tinyurl.com/4836u6

Look what Motor Voter has brought us.  And every time someone pushes back against it all you here are cries of voter suppression and racism.  Sound familiar?

This is what they did with the sub-prime crisis.  Ace wrote about this when he said "they built the bomb".  You manufacture a crisis and then blame the institutions just as the vast number of people are doing now.  Ask 10 random people on the street who is responsible for the crisis right now and you will hear Republicans and Wall Street from at least 8 of them.

In elections, its all about demonizing the opponent.  Its easy for radicals because they assume they are coming from a position of weakness.  Blame the rich, white ruling class for every ill and keep them on defense.  That is exactly what they are doing.  As Lorien said, look at the 5 top articles on the top left of Drudge right now.  Every one is about Republican racism.  This shit has been going on for years and only when we fight back vigorously do we win.

We either fight these tactics or we lose more ground.  We may win a battle here and there but we are losing the war.  And they know it.

317 Ace,

I get your general thrust, but I think that you are being unhelpful as well.

We must stay on offense. Why are you encouraging people to call into right wing talk radio and say to "cool it."

That concedes the fucking narrative that we're all a bunch of racists, but shhhhh...keep it on the DL.

Are you nuts?

Here's what we say (and what I believe)

1. That fat fuck was a plant.
2. On the slim chance he wasn't, yeah he's an idiot. Every group has them.  Kinda like the Code Pink nutcases that interrupted our convention.
3. The left called our President a retarded chimp war criminal for 8 years.  Fuck you.
4.  Cafepress sells Sarah Palin is a cunt t-shirts. Fuck you.
5. Obama is a goon with close ties to domestic terrorts. Fuck you.

318 Racism will never go away.  Neither will sexism.  Not completely.  People latch on to whatever physical differences help identify their angst about "others".  Obviously, there are people who don't see it as embarrassing to express it openly.  On the other hand, did anyone interview this guy to see what his motive was?  Nope.  Doesn't matter because it is the implication that matters.

Can we control all of those people?  No.  You can't control what they believe or who they will associate with.  The idea that they represent some larger body of people?  Crap on that.  What are we going to do? Institute some psychological litmus test prior to the rally?  Maybe everybody will have to take one of those tests that show images of black and white people to test their "racism" based on how long they look before they push a button?  We can have screenings right at the voting booth so we can throw their votes out. 

How exactly are you going to parse the greater polity?

Further, the idea that people are now going to scan every frame of video from political rally to try to support their narrative about white racists being the Republican party shouldn't shock anyone.  This is basic propaganda and marketing.  Maybe the part that is most bothersome is that somebody feels that this narrative of the greater racist republican party is true and should be "the story" of the Republican party against a black candidate.  That "someone" being the media?

Can we expect the same at an Obama rally?  Nope.  Because that would be "unnecessarily prejudicial" or something.

Yes, I am asking about this because I have been to all sorts of rallies, political and otherwise, that always seem to attract some sort of extreme views.  Usually an extremely limited number of people. 

Is it embarrassing?  Hell yes, but our job is supposed to be over riding that message with the actual message of the party not letting the "fringe" take over like the left has done.  We suck at that.  Let's face it.  We suck because the only thing that inspires us about McCain is that he is a war hero, he picked Palin and he isn't Obama.  There isn't one thing else about him that makes us want to talk about him or his policies.  We lost the narrative and that is why the idea that one guy or one woman in the crowd speaks for the party or its platform. 

We're screwed this election.  Get over it and start planning how to float some half way decent politicians for congress.  Actual people with integrity and a plan that doesn't sound like rehashed miss-matched crap from the last thirty years. 

Wilderness.  Learn to love it.  Learn to love our new government overlords.  learn to love high gas prices, crappy inflation, shitty increased government spending, suck ass deficits that have our grandparents rolling in their graves and government run health care programs.  Let me tell you that the people I get to talk to every day want that government spending and government health care more than we do not. 

They want someone to take care of them and everything else because life is just too damned hard.  Pilgrims that crossed oceans to colonize wilderness, cut off from all support but their own intrepidness, pioneers that crossed the prairies and lived in sod houses are myths to these people.  To modern citizens in this nation, that history is not the history of hard working survivors who created this country, but of idiots not much more advanced than cavemen. 

We have come to the point in our lives when we we no longer consider that hardy, self made man and woman as something to revere.  Instead, we are self-congratulatory to the point of obscenity that we have "overcome" this necessity of a hard-scrabble life.  Self reliance to these folks is getting up to the alarm clock in the morning and pressing the microwave button to warm up instant coffee. 

If you doubt that, you have only to look so far as the visceral reaction to Sarah Palin.  It isn't that Palin is an idiot or has no experience what-so-ever.  It is that her experiences, including that self-reliance and rejection of government hand outs, to the point of shooting moose for dinner, is completely and unutterably foreign.  More foreign than a black president with a "funny name" who associates with all sorts of political radicals and lives in the exclusive Hyde Park.  That is normal in today's world. 

These people think they have been working hard and putting money into the government all this time and should get something out of it as if it was a business they invested in or a producing factory.  Government is no longer seen as a simple method to organize laws and set basic boundaries to validate an existing "good society" that produces everything that it needs in the private sector and only wants defense to survive and thrive. 

Government has become the mother and father who punishes and rewards.  The mother and father who is expected to provide us with food, shelter, clothing, education and jobs.  The mother and father who will bandage our wounds and teach us the "right way".  We don't need prayer or reliance on a higher power.  We need only to fill out a form and apply to our local government office.

This is no longer the nation that simply wanted the opportunity for "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".  We are a nation of whinging children who expect to be given everything. 

That, my friends, is why McCain is losing.  It doesn't have a damn thing to do with some idiot in the audience with a freaking monkey or some lady calling Obama an Arab.  People want to be taken care of.  End of story.   They fear the loss of their comfortable life either through economic disaster or from too many fights with the barbarians at the gate.  They simply want the grain to keep flowing and barbarians to take what they want and go away.  They cannot reconcile that you can't have both.

Obama is promising the impossible.  Mainly that, once he is elected, the government will take care of "the people".  They won't be sick.  If they do get sick, the government will cure them.  They won't have to juggle two or three jobs. If their children don't behave, the government will put them in programs to rehabilitate them and teach them to be respectful and productive adults.  Everybody is going to get a college degree.  We won't have to worry about defending ourselves or spending money on the military because we will simply speak from the podium of moral authority and all human kind will suddenly no longer worry about their own ambitions or fears, but will become flower waving talkers of peace.  This is the current polities definition of "leadership".

What you have to fear here isn't that Obama will suddenly turn the country socialist.  He won't because we already are; a significant reason why people don't see his associations with Ayers, et al as "bad".  What we have to fear is the extremes.  Either Obama delivers on all of his promises, radically changing our nation or Obama fails miserably and people lose complete faith in our system of government.  Translating the failure of socialist policies to the failure of democracy. 

I make no predictions about "revolution" as so many are want to do.  We have righted ourselves too many times before.  But, people are comparing this time to The Great Depression and they have no real idea of what hardship means.  What would people think about a real depression and not just this simple recession?

I shudder to think. 

We are going to lose for this reason and this reason alone: McCain cannot give the people what they want and won't promise to do so because he doesn't believe in that type of government.  Simply put, McCain cannot be a Republican, small government, fiscal conservative and be a socialist at the same time, regardless of how hard he tries with populist promises of buying people's mortgages outright. 

People want socialism, even if they have no idea that's what they are asking for, and that is what they are going to vote for in this election.

319 Oops...should have wrote a post.

320 More offense:

Our narrative should be, "aren't you goddamned sick and tired of the media picking one asshole out of the crowd and smearing you with his actions?"

Those are the facts. Not all anger is bad. Tap into it. We're doing the job that the media won't and being smeared by that very same media for our efforts.

321

counter-

I should have added, this is exactly what those of us who are politically aware and live in blue states have been warning against and why we wanted a Rudy or a Romney to get the nomination.  This shit has been going on in big cities, mostly in blue states, for years.  We know what it is and how to confront it.

McCain still hasn't figured out what is going on and if he keeps apologizing he is going to lose, spectacularly.

322 >>>Oh yeah-he's a plant.

He's a plant and yet a corterie of Republicans walk around him smiling as he baits the obamabots with the monkey?

See?  Um, if any of those people were thinking, they could have told this guy to stop it and either 1) gotten him to stop it 2) looked like heroes or 3) exposed him as a  plant.

You guys keep saying "plant, plant, plant" but I'm watching the  video of him outside the  rally and I see a lot of good men doing nothing, as the saying goes.

Explain that?  Were they all plants too?

Stop making excuses and get mad at these people and  get them to fucking stop.

I don't want to have to make excuses anymore. 

I'm tired of it.

323 No more defense, ace.

This is all about political ju-jitsu.

Turn this shit back on them.  We should be calling into talk radio and expressing outrage that we're being smeared by this narrative the media's established.

Then talk about the cunt t-shirts and why that doesn't receive any coverage by the media.  Just use the See You Next Tuesday euphemism to describe it.

Offense. Offense. Offense.

324 Even if Monkey Man was not a plant, the ATTENTION the media have given to him IS the equivalent of a plant.

The media are looking for this kind of stuff and will play up every example they find, however unrepresentative.

I'd say that because of that fact Ace is right, except that if the media don't find this kind of stuff they manufacture it by insinuation or get it manufactured for them by Koskids and other turfers.

Where's the media attention to the literally countless instances of viciousness and violence from the left? ELSEWHERE. and nothing is going to change that.

325 To go back to Drew's team analogy, Step One is end your own mistakes, Step Two is prepare and engage the opponent.

     --Ace, AOSHq

Let them worry about us.

     --John Wooden, UCLA

Difficult at this point in in time, but achievable.

326 Hum....

Seems the lefties have relevant and recent examples of insanity, as well:


"Outside on Broad Street, waiting for Palin to leave, one man was heard saying: "Let's stone her, old school.""



http://tinyurl.com/4ry3oa

327 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkFG1ebuKZU

Look at all those "plants" smiling as he waves the monkey.

Hey -- maybe the WHOLE RALLY was really obama plants, huh?

Keep making excuses and thinking spin will help.

It's better to not have this shit happen in the first place than to sit here after the fact engaging in spin over it.  "They do it too!"  "The media focuses on us!"

Yes.  And?  The response should be then to whack these stupid fucks upside their heads and tell them to get their shit out of there.

All of these people had a chance to stop this -- or to alert a campaign official that this douchebag was going to cause trouble -- but instead chose to smile at the monkey.

Keep smiling at the monkey, and we'll have this dumbshit on the front pages three days a  week.

I am TIRED of having to spin and say "They do it too."  there's a direct way of stopping this -- which is, um, STOPPING THIS.

It's better to NOT have to make an argument excusing bad behavior at all, isn't it?

328 Okay, JackStraw, no disagreement with any of that.

329 Let them worry about us.
 --John Wooden, UCLA

I'd feel better about that strategy if McCain were Lew Alcindor or Bill Walton but he ain't.

330

Cloward Piven preaches manufactured crisis.

I'd say that because of that fact Ace is right, except that if the media don't find this kind of stuff they manufacture it by insinuation or get it manufactured for them by Koskids and other turfers

See what I mean.

331 Even if Monkey Man was not a plant, the ATTENTION the media have given to him IS the equivalent of a plant.

YES!  FUCKING EXACTLY!!!

Stop playing into their narrative.  Big deal, some random asshole committed a questionably racist act.

Now we all get to be painted as racists? While this fucking clown Obama skates on Rev Wright?

Tap into that outrage instead of handwringing.

Obama attended a racist church for 20 years and the media thinks it can hang some random fat ass with a monkey around our necks?

No. No fucking way.

332 Jack, if it matters, I spent my early adult life in Chicago (Carol Mosely Braun stickers covering up dissenting posters) and then moved outside of Milwaukee (cigs for votes).  That's not super blue, but it's as close as you'll find in the midwest.

333 warden, no, you are going to let more monkey men hang us because you refuse to fucking police your own.  you'd rather make excuses after the fact than get these fucking imbeciles to stop.

334 It's better to not have this shit happen in the first place than to sit here after the fact engaging in spin over it.


False choice.

First of all, it's already happened. So let's base our reaction on the way the world is, not how we'd like it to be.

Secondly, It's gonna happen again. If it doesn't happen legitimately, it will happen due to a plant.

They've already established the "anger" narrative.  You think that was an accident?

335 you refuse to fucking police your own

Bullshit.  We're simply disagreeing on tactics.

336 Ace, I can explain it. I don't confront crazy obnoxious people making a display of themselves in a strange venue. It isn't safe or prudent. I would generally roll my eyes and mind my own business, unless there was a tipping point where an action of mine would be either safe or very effective at stopping him, or in protection of some other person in harms way. Jerks being mostly harmless jerks (old guy, being obnoxious) will get the stink eye, or avoidance.

If I were at a rally today, you better believe I would keep tabs on someone jerky like that now. It's a free country. He can bring a damn stuffed monkey and wave it at protestors.

And get humiliated on the interwebs, or BUSTED as a moby.

Which this man should very definately be no matter who he is. Meanwhile, low confrontation of strangers is the general rule, and geezers seem to get an extra pass. I guess that's because I and I think we all intuit that inhibitions are not always what they should be in the older male.

I don't see anybody else with a monkey, and I don't see anyone cheering the man on or openly approving of his disgusting display. I wouldn't have confronted him either.

You want the mob to shut him up? That can look pretty ugly on videotape, too.

337 Offense, not defense.

Ok?

You can play offense even while slapping a monkey out of some idiot's hand.

But you don't call into talk radio and say, "Hey guys. Tone it down," like we're all guilty of something.

Instead you say, "I know what the media's up to.  We're not going to let them paint us with a few random racist cranks or a handful of Obama plants. If you see that stuff, put a stop to it."

Then you talk about Rev Wright and Sarah Palin cunt t-shirts.

Same statement, different tactic.

338 "On the bright side. You tube video about Dem's complicity in the mortgage mass has been viewed 2,260,878 times."

Um, actually, I'm personally responsible for about 2,260,870 of those views myself.

I was bored at work.  Sorry.

339

Hey, is that the real Charles Krauthammer? If so, cool...

Yeah the "Obama monkey" video will probably have 500K views by the morning, yet the original "Wisconsin McCain Supporter" video no longer showed up on YouTube today, probably because it exceeded 200K views.  People realized that the man really didn't say anything contriversial, yet the leftists comments made a huge show of their anger and their use of "racism."  I think someone figured out that it actually made the left look bad because of all the nasty comments being posted - and today it was gone.

340

counter-

The field director for Braun was a woman named Heather Booth.  She was a founder of a group called Citizens for Consumer Justice and a guiding light of ACORN.  Her husband is Paul Booth, a founder and national secretary for SDS.

You starting to see a pattern here?

341 Ace, I see people with embarassed smiles, or laughing at his weirdness. Not approving smiles or cheering.

And fark it Ace, no "whacking". You can sock a guy if you want but don't ask me to do it to an old grandad on line at a pep rally.

342 You know, something just isn't right out there.
The Bots aren't all over every conservative viewpoint post on the newspaper comments section.  Crickets.  Just crickets. 
Lots of you tube videos getting taken down.
There is a disturbance in the force.
Like a calm before the storm.....

o/t, I did enjoy humoring myself with the comparison of the plagerism twins O&B over at treacher's blog.

343 Actually, I don't think there will be any smiling at monkeys anymore. You needed worry about THAT.

344

Amen Ace.

Whether the dumbass is a plant or not, and just so I sleep better tonight I'm hoping he is, the fact remains that these idiots do legitimately exist and must be made to KNOCK IT THE FUCK OFF. They play directly into the hands of the opposition and I appreciate you calling them out. 

It seems nearly every time I'm making some headway in articulating just why BHO is a bad choice (I live in So Cal so I have a lot of opportunities to try and make my case - <sigh>, some idiot will rush in to offer his support with a knowing nod and declare authoritatively that "Obama is a Muslim" or some other nonsense cause, ya know, his Aunt Edna sent him a forwarded email that said so. After that, game over and another chance to make someone think about the important things (Ayers, ACORN, Rezko, et al) is lost.

 

 

345 JackStraw, I didn't know that.

But, "You starting to see a pattern here?", yeah dude, I was college roommates with one of Wolfson's underlings this last cycle.  I lived at Pierce hall and then in that area for about 4 years before I moved to the north side.  I wrote NMTC proposals for college friends who worked the tax credits.

I'm currently involved with helping the voter roll clean up here in Wisconsin.

I agree with everything you're saying.  I'm just trying to keep some of the goofballs off Ace's case for saying we should try not to look like morons on camera.

346 "They've already established the "anger" narrative. You think that was an accident"

Ace blogged on one of the very first iterations of that narrative, so I'm surprised he didnt anticipate attempt to parlay it into a wider criticism of the McCain/Palin ticket and its supporters.

347

SarahW - The thing to do is to talk to a few surrounding guys, get an anti-simian quorum, and then politely act that damn dirty ape to get his stinking hands off the rally. If the schmuck doesn't get the picture then LET it get ugly. Then the camera gets a pic of anti-racist Republicans bouncing an asshole from their rally.

Come to that, that's not ugly at all.

Conservatives aren't morons. We're human enough to giggle nervously at silly monkey distractions, but we're (eventually, I hope) smart enough to realise that defending a stupid probable-moby at a rally is a non-starter.

348 act > ask. I'm tired, going to bed now

349 Pajama Momma, did you see the OTHER video at #243?

350 The whole game the media is playing with this stuff is to knock us off  offense on Ayers. Everyone knows you could find as many if not more idiots doing offensive things at Obama rallies.  They just don't cover it.  So say that.

Of course  we need to be aware of stupid behavior and stop it where we see it, but let's be real - the narrative is established and isn't going away no matter how we behave.

So we need to get that message out while remaining on offense.  We don't cede the moral ground. Every discussion of inappropriate/racist/angry campaign rally behavior should be brought back to Ayers and Wright and media bias.

351

I agree with everything you're saying.  I'm just trying to keep some of the goofballs off Ace's case for saying we should try not to look like morons on camera

Me too.  I was agreeing with you.  But I'm also hoping to get Ace to see that this is a manufactured crisis.  The same shit that ACORN type candidates do every election.

They pick some minor transgression and with a coordinated effort including the MSM and politicians talking heads at every level, turn it into a "crisis".  They put us on the defensive just as they have done on this blog for an entire day as Ace said, less than a month before the election.

The left has someone hack into email of the Republican's nominee for VP and it is less than a day in the MSM and right bloggers drop it while left bloggers never mention it accept to laugh about it.  Some dope show up at a McCain rally with a Chimpy McAcronObama monkey and this place goes into cardiac arrest just as the left wants.

Who wins?

352 Read and reread every post Warden and JackStraw have stated in this thread - especially JackStraw's. It's just that important.

There is psy-ops going on whether the target of ire is a plant, a rube, or a jerk. Someone is searching for such episodes, if not actually manufacturing them, with great motivation to set the narrative. That is the bigger story and the Ayers/Axelrod/Alinsky playbook is being executed nicely.

Criticize the exception? Sure, but don't go hysterical over it. And don't ignore the political spin that is being manufactured to advance the narrative to protect Obama. It's imperative to remind everyone, even in critique, that exceptional cases that impugn the Right are being highlighted while those more numerous cases from the Left remain ignored. That's not ignoring or excusing the exceptional act as much as it is providing a fuller context to what is really going on.

Kudos, JackStraw.

353 And just to be clear - I'm not asserting that ace isn't doing the things I'm recommending. I just think that this post, and the comments about calling into talk radio and telling everyone to behave at campaign rallies, was off the mark as far as how these things should be approached.

No more defense.

That's what they want.  Look at us wasting all this energy.

Offense offense offense offense.

We suck at staying on message. They're quite good at it.  Maybe it's because they're just a bunch of mindless followers, I don't know, but we really need to stay focused here.

354 For people who have been down on Ace for calling for calm, let me put this another way:

THE MEDIA WANTS YOU TO DO SHIT LIKE THIS.

You can tell my message is important 'cause I used caps and boldface.

Seriously, many leftists, and the media they control, like to believe that they are intelligent, rational, emotionally balanced and tolerant. They likewise like to believe that Republicans are stupid, irrational, emotionally unbalanced and hateful. If you do something that seems to validate their view of conservatives, they will use it against us. Time for boldcaps again:

IF YOU GIVE THEM POLITICAL AMMO, THEY WILL SHOOT US WITH IT. 

So don't hold back because Ace says it, or I said it or even El Rushbo (if he were to say it.) Hold back because it is in your self-interest to do so.

355 JackStraw, you're right.  We're basically in agreement.

Maybe Ace should entirely ignore this stuff outside of the Moby angle.  But, he pretty much does.  For 1 out of 100 posts, it seems like a useful public service announcement to me.

356

Thanks AnonymousDrivel-

But don't listen to me.  I'm a moron.  Just read Cloward Piven, disciples of Alinsky.  From Columbia.  When Obama was a student there.  Like Bill Ayers.

This is what community organizers teach.  Damn, they are telling us their playbook and nobody reads this shit and we can't seem to figure out how they are kicking our ass.  Hey, were was that Columbia School of Journalism located, anyway?  Oh yeah. Columbia.

Depressing.

357

I agree with 317 but let's not lose sight of who is to blame.

Anger at Obama is misdirected.  It is like getting mad at the chalkboard for something your teacher wrote on it. 

The enemy we need to deal with first is the media.  Until we take back the newsrooms we will always be fighting an uphill battle.  Obama can literally call for infanticide, work hand in hand with an Osama wannabe and promote an involuntary servitude program for children and it will never be mentioned in a negative light.

If John McCain were to cure cancer it would be called a smear or a distraction.

So yeah, roughly half the electorate is deadset on bending the other half over and robbing them but until the press reports it as a robbery it is as if it never happened.

I don't have the solution for that and once the Democrats control all three branches of government we may not even have talk radio.  The best thing I can come up with is just a total embargo of any association with any journalists at any time or place.  They should be treated like pedophiles and ostracized by anyone on the right.  We may have to come up with a reply that is used whenever a reporter calls asking for anything.  "I am sorry but I will not waste my time responding to a representative of the Democratic party.  Go fuck yourself."  Something classy along those lines.

Maybe we could just start with the NY Times or one of the major networks.  If they can't get a single Republican to answer their phone calls then at least they won't be able to continue pretending they are covering both sides of an issue.  I imagine their coverage will be exactly like what it is now only without the pretense of neutrality.

358 asl,

Walk up to reporters in your town and tell 'em what you think if they're biased.  Call the newsrooms, too.  Don't let 'em blow you off.  Demand to talk to an executive producer, the news director, or the GM.

And cancel all your Time/Newseek/local leftist newspaper subscriptions.

359 JackStraw: "...But don't listen to me. I'm a moron. Just read Cloward Piven, disciples of Alinsky."

I have (well parts, anyway) and, for a moron (like all good morons), you sure talk purty.

These operatives and agitators are experts in the field. It's what they do, and they've become exceptionally good at it. Naturally it helps to have the whole freakin' MSM sympatico to participate, but that's part of the scheme. They (Alinsky disciples et al.) exploit what is a natural ally to further the narrative. In fact, it's essential.

What we are witnessing is high art propaganda. I fear it has worked and will continue to work which is all the more maddening since we, American voters alive or not, may well voluntarily place a socialist regime (and I do mean regime in that a large, unknown contingency of background players will hold power) to supercede what we call a capitalist democracy. The capitalist democracy continues to lose ground.

360 I believe in the basics of astroturfing and all that but my party's growing kneejerk insistence on blaming EVERYTHING on mobies, astroturfers, and agents provacateur is growing distressing.

Remember when DKos and DU blamed everything on the machinations of Karl Rove? We would mock the disgusting statements in their forums; they engaged in excuses  (we're angry!)  or else claimed such posts were all the work of Karl Rove  Operatives.

Well, it turns out that that was a pretty good line of defense, because my party is now doing that nonstop too.

361 If I grant that sometimes some of this may be democratic agents provocateur, and there may be  "more to the story" than what appears on the surface, can you guys grant that most of the time this ISN'T agents provocateur and sometimes the story is just as simple as it appears on the surface?

Or do we really want to start aping the left by blaming everything on the  fiendish Karl Rove, whoops, I meant David Axelrod?

And either fucking way-- if these ARE mobies, how does that disobligate anyone  from calling them out?

362 how do we know those four white kids wearing "Sarah Palin is a Cunt' t-shirts aren't really REPUBLICAN MOBIES planted by Karl Rove to embarrass obama?

Where does this end?

363 Post number 362 as i type this...
Think nuff has been said by now, I have little doubt that if i read through every post someone said it before me.

364 "And either fucking way-- if these ARE mobies, how does that disobligate anyone  from calling them out?"

That's probably the winning sales pitch.  When you see shit like this at a rally, assume it's sabotage (we don't have to agree to the source) and start hounding them.

365 Ace: "...but my party's growing kneejerk insistence on blaming EVERYTHING on mobies, astroturfers, and agents provacateur is growing distressing."

Everything? Hardly. What I think we are witnessing, and what many here on your site are emphasizing, is that we've observed the escalation of them since the primaries ended. Were Obama/Dean/Kos activists ubiquitous among the PUMAs and Clintonistas to further Obama? I don't know since I rarely traffic amongst that crowd. Maybe some lurking PUMAs can put us some knowledge assuming such knowledge is even verifiable via this very public forum. However, we've witnessed the proven tactics of Axelrod surrogates (and we know for a fact that Axelrod either outsources astroturfers or agencies that astroturf as well as serving as a PR consultation service in between elections) and the dextrosphere even tried to advance the story to the dismay of all regulars here who pretty much saw the story evaporate. See Winner et al. It's a part of the current Obama/Democrat campaign. To what degree is unknown and to what extent control is explicitly exercised by the most central figures is unproven. But, it's happening.

So yeah, I among others remain pretty angry about such developments without dismissing your argument that perhaps a dumbass (perhaps not) provided ammunition for the political opposition by doing a stupid thing at an open townhall. Even though this may have been a "normal" voter, and for the sake of argument I'll stipulate it was, almost no one is giving this guy a complete pass. What we are pressing, though, is that there is more to the story even if you take the motivation of the individual we are criticizing out. It's the context that cannot and should not be dismissed even if we recognize some individuals will not be policed or are not policeable.

That is a major crux of this argument. I know you understand this, Ace. A complicit MSM is scouting for this and other outbursts. They seek conflict and agitation to frame content - if not for political grounds then, at a minimum, for economic ones. If this guy didn't stand out, the Deciders^TM would have found some other offense to package and distribute. The narrative of "angry, racist Rethuglicans in the mold of Wallace" must be advanced either because legacy press wants to do it on its own or because Team Obama has its ear or some actual activists amongst its population. And why? Because that's what misdirection and table-turning is for. This is exactly what Axelrod does. Race card. His best student? Obama.

This is NOT a defense of said "plant, rube, or jerk." It is, however, a most necessary elucidation of the workings of a hotly contested political campaign where the industry tasked with covering it has been provably biased and disingenuous. To ignore that, even when acknowledging possible boneheadedness of one on "our side" is, ultimately, a disservice. This is not apologia. It is context. It is also productive and not necessarily reflexive protectionism of questionable ideology.


Ace: "...And either fucking way-- if these ARE mobies, how does that disobligate anyone from calling them out?"

It doesn't, and most aren't. It would be great if we could prove mobyism realtime and on the spot and I'm (we're?) all for doing what one can to expose it. It's clearly subversive. However, considering how the informational battlefield remains tilted against honest reportage, it's not altogether unreasonable to add "our" context. If you want to call intellectually questionable "spin," fine - it's spin. It's also truth - truth that has not penetrated the wall of bias the Right faces routinely and unfairly. I'm OK with spinning with honest context and I don't consider it Kos-like since the questionable actor is not being ignored. Rather, some emphasis is being placed on an issue that will not be covered at all otherwise.

366 The thing about the possibility of mobies or nutjobs is that they shouldn't matter, but do. Why should I have to participate in something that fucked up just to make socialism grow less quickly?

367 I was at the Johnstown rally.  I had a camera with a telephoto lens, I was taking crowd shots and I did not see this guy.  The media had to dig really hard to find him because he certainly didn't stand out.  Nobody noticed him or was cheering him on.

The crowd was full of quiet, respectful and polite families with children and grandchildren, dressed in their Sunday best.  Before the event, while waiting outside to get in, union goons for Obama were screaming obscenities at us the whole time, fully knowing that children were present.  Another guy wearing an Obama mask was riding a motorcycle by the line, taunting us even more.  The people in line didn't retaliate -- they just quietly tolerated the abuse.  It was an blatant, disgusting spectacle that nobody could miss, but of course the media somehow manged to.

There are absolutely vile things that the press could report about Obama crowds if they really wanted to.  They aren't hard to find -- Zombie documents them all of the time.  You'll never see CBS covering any of them, however.

It's impossible to ask for perfection from our side.  A few people are always going to make bad judgements.  What would be nice is if the press would cover the outright hatred coming from the Democrats' side with as much effort as they put into finding the lone guy who is barely holding up a monkey doll.

368 Where was all the media when Truthers were showing up at Obama rallies?

Oh, ya. They edited those pics.

369

Dear God what a moron... However on the other hand,  president Bush was called a monkey by the left and depicted in cartoons as a monkey. I even heard some D-Bag financial analyist on MSNBC call president Bush a monkey. But the lefties howl and moan when their  candidate is called the same thing

That doesn't justify this idiot but their selective moral outrage wears a bit thin.

 

370 PS and Ace I don't doubt the moron was a plant. Who has played the race card this entire time? It sure as hell wasn't our side.

371 This isn't looking good at all. All I've seen here in the last two weeks is infighting. I agree completely with Ace, but unfortunately we are fighting a losing battle. If it's not already obvious, "Angry Republican" is now part of the narrative, and the press will do what it can to run with anything that hints of anger. We can bitch and moan about the double standard all we want, but we all have to realize it's an echo chamber. There is absolutely no point or place in some of the things that "conservatives" are saying at these rallies. We need to shut it down. And no, I serious doubt they are plants. Let's not get all Kos Crazy in here...

372 As Warden & others point out, countering the idiots need not, indeed should not conflict with our staying on the offensive, refusing to retreat. it's *crucial* to distinguish whatever these idiots (mobys or not) are about from the legitimate, valid, serious, relevant, indeed necessary questions, criticisms, and facts raised by McCain/Palin. In fact, the two points should be simultaneous, parts of one and the same message, whether relayed by McCain/Palin or us, making clear just as strongly: (1) anyone attacking Obama on (e.g.) racist/ scurrilous grounds is to be strongly condemned (& we do so); (2) but to impugn our substantive arguments as racist/scurrilous in order to ignore or deflect them is false, disingenuous, insulting, and a grave disservice to voters. The key is to condemn monkey-guy and correct Arab-lady, yet in no way apologize for going after Obama on Freddie/Fannie, Wright, Ayers, Acorn, etc. In fact, the first part (likely to come up e.g. as a reporter's question) is a good excuse/opportunity to state, in the strongest of terms, the latter. (Problem is, as we've seen, the MSM has no problem quoting the first clause of a sentence and omitting the second...)

And this is something to be alert & vocal about all the more if/when these are mobys. I don't think it's hard to persuade people with common sense that in many cases these are likely to be plants--we already have precedents & examples. We should try to unmask them, if we can-- and if/when we do, disseminating the fact that these contemptible tactics are taking place reaffirms *our* narrative, the Acorn/Chicago machine/Ayers/Alinsky one. (Not to mention the gullible & complicit MSM one.) This is something that we can (try to) turn to our advantage (making lemonade out of lemons, e.g. lemons like media bias: cf. Rathergate). But we do need hard evidence, of at least one case (the video guys mentioned on Instapundit are a good start), in order for it to have any purchase on the MSM or wider public. Otherwise, yes, it will come to sound as hollow as the left's ceaseless referencing of the all-powerful Rove. And if they aren't mobys, I don't think calling them out hurts us, or reaffirms the damaging MSM narrative: there's a reason why Clinton's (a consummate politician's) "Sister Souljah moment" has entered the political lexicon. As an independent, someone who's moved from left to right over the last few years, this is part of what's drawn me into the fold: the fact that I've found more intellectual honesty, and self-distancing from the crazed & hateful fringe, among those on the right than the left. If I were a PUMA, or an undecided/persuadable coming into this site, I would find in these posts not a sign of weakness, but something to respect. We are not Kos et al, and maintaining those ethical standards is a political asset, not liability. (NB: calling out & criticizing these idiots is an entirely different thing from e.g. the Palin-bashing from some of the Republican commentariat, disloyally ingratiating themselves with the MSM cool kids.)

Of course: not much time left; we have other priorities; no use cluttering McCain's message. But for McCain's message to get through, more clearly and undistorted, we supporters should do what we can to remove the obstructions. And these *are* the obstructions. Whether or not Ace highlights these things, this is what is taking up headlines, soundbites, precious minutes/paragraphs of media time/space that would otherwise have to deal with the *substance* of anti-O criticism. This is the Obama camp talking-point, what makes up the "conventional wisdom," what "everyone knows" is going on in MSM-reality-land. The land, unfortunately, in which most undecideds/persuadables live.

373 A stupid act -- but has CBS "news" .com not been covering the Ayers et al. connections so they could save their bandwith to cover the jackass with the monkey puppet grass-knoll moment.

374 Damn, another post about another idiot.  Ignore them - walk away. 

375

"Yelling unhinged shit always helps win elections."

Well, the Obama camp seems to think so.

376

Pajama Momma, did you see the OTHER video at #243?

*sigh

No I hadn't. What a jerk. Does look like a total plant when you see it that way.

But Ace is right that other people should have smacked that asshat upside the head.

 

shoot me now please.

377 No, Ace, you were right in the first place. You know, after the election, I may re-register as an independent. Republicans are getting to be as embarrassing as Daily Kos. Looks like arrested adolescence syndrome has finally spread across the political spectrum.

378 Back in 2002-2003, at one of the anti-war protests, there was a lefty asshole carrying a big (8X6?) banner with photos of Colin Powell and an ape side by side.  Anybody remember that?  It infuriated me.  I can't find it on GIS.

379

Even if Monkey Man was not a plant, the ATTENTION the media have given to him IS the equivalent of a plant.

Everyone should have the experience of attending some political rally or protest and watching which way the cameras point.

At the Gathering  of Eagles counter protest I attended in D.C., all the cameras pointed at us. The cameras were placed very closely to us and never pointed away. It didn't take long to realise that the press(AP) were hoping to catch an angry reaction from our side.

So I guess Ace is right. If you go, assume that cameras are on you the whole time. Take the monkey from the moron. Leave lefty counter-protesters alone.

380 People are changing parties because some asshole brought a monkey to a townhall meeting? Are you kidding? No wonder we are losing.

381 Look at me making reference to Bob Dylan lyrics. Wooooo! So forward thinking and progressive!!

382

Ken, how does it feel to be a scummy liberal? You would know how it feels to lose. You guys know that well. If you didn't cheat your asses off you'd never have win an elction ever. How does that feel sport.

Actually freedom of speech is a healthy alternatrive to the lockstep nazi goosestep you democrats do. None of you would dare speak against your party. You don't have the morals to do it anyway.

We walk in truth and as a family tell each other what we feel. It's actually healthy.

383 I believe in the basics of astroturfing and all that but my party's growing kneejerk insistence on blaming EVERYTHING on mobies, astroturfers, and agents provacateur is growing distressing.

Amen. I suppose it was only a matter of time until a chunk of Republicans decided that we want to be victims too, dammit, and ended up following the tried-and-true Democratic Party Plan For Success. The Republican Palin-haters provided the necessary elitst twits, and now all those creepy Birchers (Psst! Eisenhower is a Red!) that were excommunicated from the party back in the 60's get invited back to be our very own Truthers. White House 2012, here we come!

If Obama wins it seems pretty clear that the extremists and apologists will take over the party and demand rigid ideological purity, just like the Kos Kidz did. And the folks who claim to lurve Sarah Palin bunches will have happily exchanged her future in national politics for their opportunity to vent in public and make up irrelevant conspiracy theories. But, hey, then they'll get to spend 8 years feeling very, very sorry for themselves. And that's all that really matters.

384 The fact that the boob gave the camera a shit-eating half-grin, removed the Obama sticker, crumpled it up, and gave the doll to a kid, proves that he knew perfectly well how it would be received by the public in general.

This leaves only two possibilities: either 1) the fellow thought the crowd would approve, and was disturbed to discover that there were hostile cameras about, or 2) he was a plant, intending to be seen.

Seems to me that if he was a plant, he would not have removed the Obama sticker and given away the doll. But I could be wrong, here.

385 He's not a plant, I know the asshole and he is a grade A asshole. And I say this as a concerned Christian bible humper who TOTALLY loves Rush Limbaugh but will be forced to vote for Obama because of these deplorable incidents.

386 Actually, now that I've seen the other video, I'm certain he's a plant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkFG1ebuKZU

387 385 He's not a plant, I know the asshole and he is a grade A asshole.

Posted by: john doe at October 13, 2008 01:14 PM (dKyuh)

You know him, as in personally? And you know he's a Republican?

388 Was he a plant?

Probably, astroturfing works best in real life because you don't leave an internet trail to track down. This being timed with a sudden "oh, the evil right wingers are so filled with rage and hate!" stories that makes it impossible to be coincidence.

389 It was a plant, an attempt to percolate rage at those "racist republicans," similar to the anti-muslim fliers put up at universities, which turned out to be put up by pro-terrorists to discredit an anti-terror group.

If this guy was a legit McCain supporter, the MSM would already have his name and interview on 60 Minutes. Being that he's an Obama brownshirt, we will never see his face again. Unless that is, somebody has the gumption to scour the internet for a picture of this fat pig at an Obama event, or more likely, an ANSWER protest march, with a BUSH LIED poster.

390 "...make them walk away from the attacks they were planning on making"

Not to cut any slack for these morons, but, McCain is Bob Dole without the Viagra. Suuuuure he was just about to uncork on the opposition but this shameful display of partisanship just forced him to hold back. He really wants to win this thing. I just know in my heart that Sir John the Pure-N-Clean-As-The-Driven-Snow is willing to do what it takes to win this thing. I have to believe in my heart cause my friggin eyes tell me he doesn't have the will and wants to be able to chum around with his pals after he goes down to a "noble" defeat.

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