1 Democratics (they claim they are the "Democratic Party" so I call them Democratics), they just don't get it, do they.

Also, cocks.

2 Close the center tag

3 This is going to get the Dems absolutely frothing with the "how dare you question our patriotism" stuff.

4 When I see my flag stepped on it makes me feel clingy and bitter. I can get a kind of catharsis at Mass or by shooting, but sometimes, only voting does it.

5

And while you're closing the open HTML center tag, Drew, how's about changing the other headline to read "Clinton aides: etc."? And shouldn't those flags have been recycled? (Maybe into Liberian, Puerto Rican or Cuban ones.)

6 Obama did indignantly state that he runs that campaign. I blame him.

7 He's an executive too, remember?

8 When asked about the disposal of the flags, Obama voted present.

9 They just can't help themselves, can they?


P.S. Potosi Joel, you made me laugh. I'm going to steal that line.

10 More seriously, does recycling mean you can only use the things once? I'm sure these could have been donated (for tax benefit!) somehow instead of chucking them in a landfill.

Not very economical.

11 Those flags should have been given to people who can't afford to buy one to be displayed on 9/11

12 Please, God, let someone have checked that there weren't flags in the trash at the Republican Convention before we ran with this.    

13 This is just fascinating to me. They worship the ONE. He's constantly got people saying how they will never wash their hands again after shaking his. His half eaten waffle was sold on eBay. You would think they would save the toilet paper they used that day as souvenirs if they could. 12000 is 1 in 7 people at that event.
How bad must they hate the American flag if they wouldn't even have it in their house as a souvenir of the ONE????

14 If Biden were smart, he'd use this Flag issue to say "See ya! Thanks for all the fish!"

15 What. A. Gift.

16 The flags should have been donated to the VFW and American Legion.  They place flags on veterans' graves every year on Memorial Day and Veterans Day.  A lost opportunity by the dems.  That seems to be their theme, no?

17 I guess running the campaign does give him experience.



I bet the Greek columns weren't tossed out.

18 Damnit, I want one! I don't care if it's one of those little 3x5 plastic ones--if they're willing to sell it with a certificate of authenticity, the RNC could get a decent-sized check from me.

19 That's just where Democrats want America: in the trash

20

Holy shit! I just saw the picture at Hot Air (not through the Ace link, above) and I figured they were the small, paper flags for delegates to wave--but they're the real cloth flags! Holy shit! I don't believe they could have been this stupid when they could have been donated to schools or public buildings. Hell, even offered them for free to the general public (especially to replace worn-out ones at businesses out of respect and to beautify neighbourhoods). What dumbasses.

21 Gawd, l'd I like to kick the shit out of Bill Ayers, then gut shoot the cocksucker.

22

I guess Obama just threw Betsy Ross under the bus.

23 "I guess Obama just threw Betsy Ross under the bus."

Mwa!  Classic.

24 Please, God, let someone have checked that there weren't flags in the trash at the Republican Convention before we ran with this.   

anne,

I do too but you know what? If they did, I'll be more than happy to blast the RNC for it too.

25 The democrats are always complaining that we wave the flag too much (as if there ever could be such a thing). Yet, according to Dennis Praeger who attended both conventions, you saw more American flags at the DNC.  In fact, at Invesco Field, they passed out 85,000 flags to attendees and told them to wave them. After it was all over, Praeger saw the flags thrown on the floor.

26 Did Hillary! have anything to do with this?

27 Apparently nobody at the DNCC is thinking about how to NOT hand a powerful symbolic issue to their opponents (and one that reinforces existing suspicions about their respect for the flag). I would wager that more people at the RNCC know about proper flag disposal than at the DNCC, so I would pray we're safe on that point.

28 Maybe the Dems thought they were upside down.

29 #3:

This is going to get the Dems absolutely frothing with the "how dare you question our patriotism" stuff.

The Dems under Mr. and Mrs. The One are already all froth and no beer.  The gritty, and challenging job of community organizer notwithstanding, Obambi is looking more and more like a bantam weight up against a super-heavy weight.  They're not calling SP the "Thrilla from Wasilla" for nothing.

30 Frack,

"The DNC" was me.

Damn sock-puppets

31  check those flags. I bet they have 57 stars

32 Josh Marshall is focusing on the true scandal - that McCain used Walter Reed imagery and stock photos of soldiers in his backdrop screen.

33

Dammit! We should have recycled those flags as toilet paper!

You're welcome, Gaia.

34 Man, give me 5 minutes alone with Hussein's friend Bill. Just the thought gives me a warm, fuzzy, feeling...

35

Rumor has it that the DNC cleanup was contracted out to some guy by the name of Karl Rove.

If The Chosen One claims running his campaign qualifies Him for POTUS, he'll have some 'splainin to do on this one.  Wonder who's gonna be next under the bus.

Gutman been "fired" yet?

 

 

36 Good idea, Think Tank. But I'll only need one star, thankyouverymuch.

37 Hey, someone please put those flags on an aution site.
I will buy one and the money can go to wounded vetrans!!!

38

I will admit, I laughed at the RNC using the wrong Walter Reed building for the backdrop. It was a fun, goofy mistake that you know got someone's ass chewed out.

This one though with the flags... not funny at all. Someone had to say, "You know, we got to get rid of these flags. Let's trash them. All of them." And other people who were in a position of decision making and authority had to say, "We're cool with that." There were multiple layers of fail on this one.

39 That is odd, to toss away such a symbolic souvenir...as if those flags were mere props.

40 Damnit, I want one! I don't care if it's one of those little 3x5 plastic ones--if they're willing to sell it with a certificate of authenticity, the RNC could get a decent-sized check from me.

Great fundraising idea.

Save a "Flag from the Democrats". You too can bitterly cling to these "recycled" flags, they only have 50 stars, were only used once and were apparently made right side up. You'll notice that these flags have finely preserved footprints of Democratic Delagates.

Please find a home for these orphans of patriotism.

41

I want to ask a question: does flag etiquette, specifically the disposal part of it, apply to any representation of a US Flag, like a paper of plastic one meant for waving by hand as opposed to flying, or only to an actual made-to-fly flag?

Even if technically the answer is no, I think it is a huge symbolic goof, and the Dems never pull their punches just because it turns out that something was not technically true, do they?  But I am curious about this question.

42

This is good symbolism, but it doesn't mean much.

These are tinker toy flags, not a standard.  It is wasteful and stupid, but the degree of disrespect is minor, these are tinker toy flags, not actual standards/ensigns.

Use it, but I would like to know what anyone else does, when their memorial day flag is all worn out, and needs to be removed, and replaced with a newer one?  Do you go through the entire retiring proces before disposing of it in flames?

43 You know, I'd like a nice, quality flag.

Dang. Why would people throw these out if they thought they were making history? I'd keep every one I could get a hold of.

44 Sherlock, only if they have flown over government installations or carried by military units / vessels.

45

Before McCain speaks today, veterans will haul these garbage bags filled with flags out onto the stage — with dramatic effect, no doubt — and tell the story.

I expect this crap from Democrats, but Republicans leaving them in trash bags to prove a point doesn't sound like a good idea.

46 it's not like they're hiding the identity of trig palin's real mother.
stupid neothugs.

47 Sell the flags on eBay with COAs as a fundraiser, wait for the DNC to complain that the RNC is making money from DNC property, then publicize the Hell out of it.

The DNC appears to be suffering from an outbreak of foot-in-mouth disease, why not get ahead of the trend and use it?

48 "I went to the DNCC and all I got was this stupid flag."

49 Unpatriotic cocksuckers (let's keep that count up).

50 How bad must they hate the American flag if they wouldn't even have it in their house as a souvenir of the ONE????

When George W. Bush came to our hometown during his 2000 campaign, my family and I brought home four small American flags.  Today, they stand proudly in a coffee mug on a bookcase in our family room.

51 When my last flag was worn out I gave it to my local BSA charter.

They have a ceremony that they do.  If I remember they burn them and play taps.

K

52 Thats the disposal ceremony Kestrel, It's only required for "standards and ensigns"

53 Obvious eco-terrorists

54

McCain congratulated Obama for his nomination. It was a classy thing to do. The video and the response from the Obama campaign can be seen here: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/08/obama-campaig-1.html.

I hadn’t seen Obama's response on TV. It’s easy to miss, as I record a lot and watch on weekends, so I could have missed it. So I went to Obama’s youtube channel, figuring they’d have it there.

This is what I found searching “mccain congratulations ad” : http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=BarackObamadotcom&search_query=mccain+congratulations+ad&search=Search

It tried every combination I could think of, even just mccain, congratulations, convention, republican. I browsed through all 1228 videos on the site. Nothing was there, as promised by David Pluffe, Obama’s campaign manager.

I am a Republican. I was probably going to vote for McCain by default. But I’m not THAT strong a Republican. I was looking for a reason to vote for a candidate, Democrat or Republican, not against one, and Obama has many things about him to recommend. I WANTED to like him.

The last two weeks of conventions and speeches and actions have solidified my opinion and position, and these two links are but one stark example of why. It’s not the candidates laundry list of kitchen table positions on everything from unions to abortion to gun control to school reform to just who is going to make you better off and win the war on terror and bring back our standing in the world. It’s the measure of the men and women in this race. The more I have looked into the records, and the history of the people in this race, I have found Obama, Biden, and the people with whom they surround themselves wanting. They do not have integrity and they do not have my vote.

Now, I follow politics like most people follow football. I find it fascinating. But until now, I’ve been an interested, if somewhat partisan observer, but not an activist. I’m not even registered with any party. That has changed. For the first time, I have donated to a political campaign of any type.

McCain/Palin ‘08

For me the choice is now clear. For everyone else across the political spectrum you I suggest you look very closely at all the candidates and the people that have influenced them throughout their lives, and then let your conscience be your guide.

Jeff Weimer

55 Leave it to the Democrats to recycle everything at that convention except the American flag.

I'm sure they debated the pros and cons of having bottled water at the stadium. What to do with the American flags?

*cricket*

56 I don't know wicked

Hotair has a picture of them and they don't look like the little standard tinker flags to me...

57 Have any of you also seen THIS???

I'd say the Democrats have a real probelm on their hands!

58

topsecret,

I'm a fan of the uniform code, thats why I will never display a flag, unless it is a standard.   None of those flags are of the proper size to be a standard, the smallest is a "storm" flag, which is 5'X9 1/2".

Now any representation of the national standard is a "flag" but those flags, that are not standards require the same respect as standards.

Thats why this doesn't bug me MUCH!

It's stupid, wasteful and disrespectful, but not as stupid and wasteful and disrespectful as dems can often be.

Thats all I meen.

59 ack!  Do NOT require the same respect, sorry, I was jumping tabs.

60 "These are tinker toy flags, not a standard."

That's what I first thought too.  Look at the photo on Hot Air.  By and large, they aren't the hanging off a building kind, though according to the McCain campaign this included at least one of those also.

But these are bigger than kiddie stuff.  I'm watching this on Fox News right now and these look at least a couple feet wide.

61 gotcha wicked.

62 They should have let Oprah give them away on her show. It'd be a lot cheaper for the audience than those "free" cars she stuck them with.

63 BTW, a Storm Flag, is the particular standard that is draped over a coffin.  It is TECHNICALY born by a US servicemember and is therefor a Standard.  That is why even folded, a standard that has dressed a coffin rates a salute.

64 Here is the picture from the original site which does appear to be very busy at the moment, for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.

This picture is bigger than the one over at H.A.

http://___154.imageshack.us/___154/15/dncgarbagent8.jpg

65 Posted by: wickedpinto at September 06, 2008 02:05 PM (ul7te)

Posted before I saw that - reply unnecessary.

I still want one, though . . .

66

And I must correct myself Topsecret,

There is one other representation of the US Flag, that is considered a standard, and it is 1 1/2" wide, and more than 20" long.

It's called the medal of honor.

67

Or if it's worn as a ribbon, it's 3/4" wid, and 2 1/4" long.

(I Might have fucked up my ribbon dimensions, it's been 10 years, used to have this shit verbatim, I was BIG on the uniform code.)

68 wickedpinto,

That's good information but honestly, as a political matter, it's going to be overwhelmed by the optics.

McCain wouldn't be hurt by this if it happened at the RNC because, well he's a fucking war hero. 

Barack "False Patriotism" Obama? He's got himself a problem for a day or two when he's already on the defensive after the RNC convention.

I thought a lot of the flag stuff in the '88 campaign was pretty vacuous but Dukakis was just an ass, Obama has a, um, 'more colorful', relationship with some basic American values (Ayers, William, pictured above).

69 Please, God, let someone have checked that there weren't flags in the trash at the Republican Convention before we ran with this.  

Most Americans would take them home.  (Not viewing them as an overly jingoistic representation of an mean imperialist country that is.)

70

I understand DrewM,

I'm just saying that I believe, and actually hope more did, that patriotism is more than waving a flag shaped object.

I'm not saying it's bad, In fact, it's good, if you actually believe in it, and this is powerful not because of any real disrespect in handling, but in the disrespect of the Dem's, by treating the flag as an accoutrement rather than a symbol of this nation.

I am just a stickler, so I'm not THAT offended, Offended, yes, but not THAT offended.

Those in the know will likely feel the same, and those not in the know probably don't give a flying fuck anyway.

KnowwhatImean?

71

BTW, a Storm Flag, is the particular standard that is draped over a coffin.  It is TECHNICALY born by a US servicemember and is therefor a Standard.  That is why even folded, a standard that has dressed a coffin rates a salute.

I find nothing particularly technical to that line of thinking.  At the very least I'd call it reasonable and respectful.

72 Via Allah:  number of ejaculations -- infinite

73 "Those are not the flag recycling rules I used to know.  It was rather an inartful method of recycling.  But I will not take any guns flags away from you - I just don't have the votes in the house."  - What Obama's think...

74 "It's stupid, wasteful and disrespectful"

Well said, WP. It's amazing how wasteful Democrats are, for being so green-obsessed and all.

Hillary raised more money than Bush ever did, and ended up raiding Bill's piggy bank, while still going millions into debt -- all in a losing effort.

Obama's raised more money than God, and outspent McCain 3-4 to 1, and has nothing to show for it, besides 12,000 UNUSED flags that they couldn't think of doing anything better with than just tossing into a dumpster. Guess they'll order new ones for Obama's next rally (at least if it's taking place among the bitter, gun-toting, bible-clinging Scranton types.)

75 Agreed Thomas, I was just refering to the reasoning.

76 UNAMERICAN DNC!

At least give them to the local school district to auction for the PTA fundraiser.

77 Read that article on the Drudge Report and saw these in the comments.

"Can we talk about “real” things–like the way the GOP has run the country into the ground over the past 8 years, with a stupid war of choice, deregulated markets that have triggered a housing and banking crisis, and now climbing unemployment. If you think you can cover this mess with some flag waiving–wait til the election. The public ain’t gonna fall for this cynicism anymore."

"Why make a big deal out of these used flags, they were bought and paid for and the served their purpose. They were just props to decorate the stage for television."

"here is what i think of you wasted patriotism: why are all of you true patriots here blogging instead of diving in a dumpster somewhere in denver? and while you’re there don’t stop at the flag, stay there. i defy anyone, even the pope to label a flag sacred!"

Apparently their lack of patriotism and the way they desecrate our flag isn't a real thing.  Can anybody else smell blood in the water?

78 Palin's speech today, again, was a redo of the convention speech. I need to hear her speak extemporaneously. I want some red meat, man.

79

Ack,

ACK!

80 McCain starts off with "Those flags look great". Good.

Then he gives a shout out to an Olympian who "is the son of illegal immigrants and made us all proud to be Americans".

A- The cheering kind of slowed down at that line.

B- Motherfucker just can't help himself, can he?

81 good delivery.

82

Typical of you wingnut rethuglicans to make a big issue of throwing away American flags. Why don't we get to the real issues? Like the fact that baby retard Trig was sired by the 7 year old daughter in a right wing, bible thumpin, shotgun pumpin, snake handlin, "church" where they worship the sky - fairy Jeebus.

/typical Dummie

 

 

83 "Palin's speech today, again, was a redo of the convention speech."

Dude, this is what politicians *do*.  They give the same stump speech over and over and over and over, with an occasional topical insert (as today).

Not everyone has watched and memorized every single appearance she's made in the last weeks.  In fact, lots of folks haven't watched a single one.  Repetition of good key points is essential.

84 deregulated markets that have triggered a housing and banking crisis, and now climbing unemployment.

I'm starting to wonder when the Republicans are going to start running ads pointing out when the economy started to tank:

In 2006 you fired us and replaced us with the opposition Democrats.  Since then, the price of energy has doubled, housing values have plunged, and the middle class has been squeezed.  Are you better off now than 2 years ago?

Republicans, give us another look.

85

In 2006 you fired us and replaced us with the opposition Democrats.  Since then, the price of energy has doubled, housing values have plunged, and the middle class has been squeezed

Thanks Nancy!

86 I'd like to take a little stroll on Ayers.

POS

87 Better:

We're the Republicans; Give us another look


If McCain would make a push for a big middle-class tax cut, (maybe an explicit payroll tax cut based on the number of future taxpayers you've sired)  he'd have this sewed up. 

88

Torabora,

I'd have no problem putting a round in ayers, other than that whole prison thing.

It would take about 20 minutes to go beecher in prison.  I'm Dainty.  though fat, maybe I should chunk up a bit for anal defense in case I ever do plunk ayers.

If not, I can just try to convince myself I ate Hotlinks the day before.

89 "B- Motherfucker just can't help himself, can he?"

McCain believes America is an idea more than a tribe.

90

Much of this story has already been countered by the Democrats as untrue (the flags may have been bundled and bagged to be reused before a GOP sympathizer stole them), but I’d also question what the GOP plans to do with all of its little flags when it’s done fetishizing them.

After all, Republicans probably are more like than Dems to break the law while unintentionally abusing the flag. For details on how, see http://jmcpherson.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/burn-a-flag-for-the-fourth/.

91 Much of this story has already been countered by the Democrats as untrue (the flags may have been bundled and bagged to be reused before a GOP sympathizer stole them)

Their spin is pre-discounted.

92 McCain believes America is an idea more than a tribe.

Christoph,

Of course it is. It's a country with laws that must be followed and applied evenly to all.

93   According to the latest on Fox, the Repubs STOLE these flags that were going to be used by Obama at a later date. Someone needs to either debunk or prove out this, asap.

94

Unless you have the right ACLU attorney, and the right/left circuit court Drew.

Then laws are evolving and living and dependant upon current standards of decency and shit.

95

Any news on that natural born thing as it pertains to McCain?

It's bullshit, because military instillations, like embassy's are US property, but at least this is an interesting argument, that I would like to see the arguments to.

96 "may have been...."

Love how that's become proof. I guess these bags were just waiting to be used at another rally, too:

More DNC refuse

97 the Repubs STOLE these flags that were going to be used by Obama at a later date

Spin vs spin.  I don't think that we should hammer this meme, true or not, but as I noted earlier, the Dem spin is pre-discounted, as this tale re-enforces preexisting perceptions.

98

So if those flags were going to be used later by the Obama campaign why were they in garbage bags? And why weren't they under the control of the Obama campaign staff?

 

I'm sure the veterans who distributed these flags will have something to add to this discussion.

99 "Of course it is. It's a country with laws that must be followed and applied evenly to all."

And that sure as hell applies to an American citizen who serves his country, even if his parents were illegal immigrants. It shows the son bought into the idea of America and the parent's decision, while illegal, was a good one.

Besides... they were obviously citizens of another country. While American citizens and authorities are morally bound by its laws, it's an an open question about whether foreigners are.

Do you feel bound by every country's laws? You're under their jurisdiction, yes, but a moral obligation?

I simply don't believe it's immoral to emigrate to another country.

Even allowing for the fact the parents were dastardly criminals, doesn't diminish their son's service, McCain in honoring it, nor both the idea and laws of America.

100 Yo, O -- budget is a bit tight.  Could you send us some of those flags so we can burn'em in demonstrations?

101 "Much of this story has already been countered by the Democrats as untrue (the flags may have been bundled and bagged to be reused before a GOP sympathizer stole them), but I’d also question what the GOP plans to do with all of its little flags when it’s done fetishizing them."

Huh...

It's been a week...

I wonder how they justice noticed they were stolen now . . . at the same time McCain held this event . . . neat coincidence isn't it?

102 "Of course it is. It's a country with laws that must be followed and applied evenly to all."

Oh, DrewM... I agree, which is why the ONE substantive thing I didn't like about the RNC convention, or the McCain campaign, is it felt it had the right to ; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">violate and misappropriate others' intellectual property, repeatedly, without permission nor compensation.

And permission is the key. A copyright holder has the right to control the distribution of their work, even to be a jerk about it. Ask Gabe.

Property, and intellectual property, is the bedrock of capitalism.

The laws must be followed (your word) and applied evenly to all. So why not  the Fairness in Music Licensing Act?

103 "just noticed" . . . oh f-k it

104 I'm retyping the above because I'm annoyed the editor mucked it up...

"Of course it is. It's a country with laws that must be followed and applied evenly to all."

Oh, DrewM... I agree, which is why the ONE substantive thing I didn't like about the RNC convention, or the McCain campaign, is it felt it had the right to violate and misappropriate others' intellectual property, repeatedly, without permission nor compensation.

And permission is the key. A copyright holder has the right to control the distribution of their work, even to be a jerk about it. Ask Gabe.

Property, and intellectual property, is the bedrock of capitalism.

The laws must be followed (your word) and applied evenly to all. So why not  the Fairness in Music Licensing Act?

105 "And permission is the key. A copyright holder has the right to control the distribution of their work, even to be a jerk about it. Ask Gabe."

At least according to the McCain campaign, they paid and got licenses for it before they did it.

106 Christoph,

Look, I don't want to get off onto an immigration tangent (they'll time enough for that later) but come on.

Do you feel bound by every country's laws? You're under their jurisdiction, yes, but a moral obligation?

When I'm under their jurisdiction, yeah I do. I don't think you get to show up in some country and decide which laws you want to follow and which ones you don't. It's not that complicated and I'm pretty sure, "I don't feel a moral obligation to follow your laws" is a winning defense in any country.

Are you really saying it's optional for non-citizen aliens to follow the laws of the country they are in? Really?

I have no problem with the kid for winning a medal at the Olympics (this case has nothing to do with military service, I don't know why you brought that up). I do have a problem with McCain trying to use it to beat up people who want to see the laws enforced. He could have saluted the kid without mentioning his parents immigration status, no?

107 No, but seriously, typos aside - I like the fact they just noticed these were stolen right now.

108 From the Fox story:

"The vendor supposedly found trash bags full of flags in and nearby dumpsters, and turned them over to the McCain campaign."

They were MY damn flags. They were in MY dumpster. I was planning on taking the sticks off and sharpening them, to use to defend myself against AoS moron hobo-hunters.

Then I was going to paper my dumpster with the flags.

109

So the DNCC is indicating the flags were in storage to eventually be returned to the manufacturer .... Seriously? .....  I always store stuff in the dumpster that I want to return, TO THE LANDFILL! Is there some kind of liberal dipstick excuse manual? Where do they come up with this stuff? Why would the manufacturer take the flags back anyway. A donation would have made a better story for the dims.

Obama and his RetardOcrats were donating the Flags to the landfill which were intercepted and redistibuded to actual Americans who appreciate such donations

 

110 Drew M, I am sure if you research your country's history you will find instances where people moved into areas where they were neither invited nor welcomed. And they did it anyway.

One could argue whether they were justified in doing so. I'd say muskets decided the issue.

However, we could celebrate their children's accomplishments regardless.

111 Christoph,

How do you know they didn't get a BMI or ASCAP license? Do you think every bit of music played at the convetinos (God awful as it was) was pirated?

Musicians grant agencies the right to license the use of their music but they can revoke it at anytime, which seems to be what Heart has done.

That doesn't mean the first use was illegal. 

112 "When I'm under their jurisdiction, yeah I do. I don't think you get to show up in some country and decide which laws you want to follow and which ones you don't.

Obviously early Americans and their forbears over centuries disagreed with you.

It's not that complicated and I'm pretty sure, "I don't feel a moral obligation to follow your laws" is a winning defense in any country."

It's not a defense, naturally, nor did I claim it is. I expressly stated you're under the country's jurisdiction to the degree they have the ability to enforce it.

Much like this serviceman's parents, who took a chance and got citizenship for their son because of your country's inability to enforce your immigration laws. Yes, that inability should be addressed; however... I don't believe the parents did anything morally wrong. As individuals.

Nothing wrong that wasn't done by generations of founding Americans, anyway. (Rather less when you think about it because the parents didn't use muskets or destroy the pre-existing nations.)

113 Christoph,

I seem to remember that you are from Canada, right?

Can I move to say Toronto and just start working legally without any authorization? Yes or no, it's a simple question

Again, I have no problem with saluting the kid who won the medal but his parent's immigration status is immaterial, except as an attempt by McCain to gain some moral advantage for his amnesty position.

114 "How do you know they didn't get a BMI or ASCAP license? Do you think every bit of music played at the convetinos (God awful as it was) was pirated?"

If they had the McCain camp would have said so. They're not idiots. Further, they were caught repeatedly (as reported by Allahpundit at Hot Air) using music in campaign commercials without permission. They were then forced to remove it.

115 Much like this serviceman's parents,

Hey jackass...he's not a serviceman. He won a fucking Olympic gold medal.

I'd be more inclined (though not by much) to take you seriously if you could get a basic fact right instead of misstating something several times, especially after being corrected.

116 "Can I move to say Toronto and just start working legally without any authorization?"

No. Which is what I've said 3 times now.

Doing so wouldn't make you immoral, however. Murder, lying, stealing someone's copyrighted music... these are immoral acts of varying degrees of seriousness. One of those isn't even illegal.

117 "... he's not a serviceman. He won a fucking Olympic gold medal."

DrewM, pwned, you're right. I'd listened to it once and got it mixed up. That was careless of me.

Naturally you can substitute "American gold medal winner" for serviceman and my point makes sense in each and every instance. Further, the reason for my mental flub is the case of an American serviceman with illegal immigrant parents is much more common.

118

I just threw an old package of hot dogs in the trash.

I plan on eating them tomorrow.

119 Here, from the WSJ blog:

"Update: Friday afternoon, we heard back from the McCain campaign, which issued the following statement: “The McCain campaign respects intellectual property rights. Accordingly, prior to using ‘Barracuda’ at any events, we paid for and obtained all necessary licenses.”

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/09/05/mccain-campaign-to-go-heart-less/

120 Doing so wouldn't make you immoral,

Bully for you Christoph. Alas, you are the only one talking about morality. The law is much more straight forward. It is against the law of this country (and every country) to enter without proper documentation. Furthermore, it is illegal to work in this country (and I'm guessing every country) to work without proper documentation.

Also, you and the open border types forget that illegal immigrants very often commit identity theft in order to work. That surely must qualify as 'immoral', doesn't it?

121

#88

IIRC Belize has no extradition treaty with the US, and they speak English.

FTR, it's really really wrong to commit cold blooded murder.  The government really really frowns on that sort of thing.  If you get caught you might get in trouble.

122 AD,

I don't think Christoph can hear you all the way up there on his high horse.

Besides, facts are so fucking annoying and perhaps even immoral.

123 You cannot steal abandoned property.
Reporters are free to dumpster dive once the trash is on the curb.
That same trash cannot be searched under the back porch (before moving it to the curb) without committing various crimes.

The DNCC excuse doesn't make sense.

124 The Excel Center would be the ones to have purchased an ASCAP Arenas and Stadiums license, or the RNC would have bought an Conventions, Expositions, Industrial Shows license.  Either way they are entitled to play whatever is in the ASCAP repertory until such time that Heart tells ASCAP to deny performance rights to a specified licensee and ASCAP then communicates that denial to the licensee.

125 "Bully for you Christoph. Alas, you are the only one talking about morality."

Guilty.

"The law is much more straight forward."

Indeed.

"It is against the law of this country (and every country) to enter without proper documentation. Furthermore, it is illegal to work in this country (and I'm guessing every country) to work without proper documentation."

I support those laws, and I support your country's right to enforce them.

"Also, you and the open border types..."

Thank you for acknowledging correctly I and open border types are too different camps.

"... forget that illegal immigrants very often commit identity theft in order to work."

I've never forgotten that. I oppose identity theft to the point of probably being uncommonly interested in the subject. I have a close family who was victimized. I think about it personally. I stay well versed on privacy issues.

"That surely must qualify as 'immoral', doesn't it?"

Yes. And I'm sure we agree there's no evidence the child did anything immoral. On the contrary, he represented his country well. Whether the story is brave illegal immigrant parents risk everything to go to the greatest nation on Earth and give their child a better life... or evil foreign parents' child loves his birthland and excels... it's still a great American story.

126 "At least according to the McCain campaign, they paid and got licenses for it before they did it."

If they did, awesome, and that will raise my already (mostly: believe it or not, I agree with you that he's too weak on border security and illegal immigration, not to mention his global warming nonsense) high estimation of McCain so I thank you for bringing it to my attention. Do you have a source for that?

127

Since it is the business owner who obtains the ultimate benefit from the performance, it is the business owner who obtains the license.

http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.html

That would be the Excel Center.  They probably buy one annually given the scope and diversity of events that occur there.

128 And I'm sure we agree there's no evidence the child did anything immoral.

Christoph,

I doubt he's a 'child' given the age minimums at the Olympics but let that slide. I am actually quite confident he, like all of us, has done something immoral in his life. That's not relevant to the story however.

Again, my argument is with McCain. He thinks these examples add moral heft to his side (and he does often use soldiers as examples). The fact is however, for every example of Olympic medalist, heroic soldiers and gosh darn wonderful person he uses, I can show one (likely more) examples of criminals or people who take from the system.

My point isn't that the people McCain cites aren't fantastic, I'm sure they are. They are just irrelevant to the argument because they are counterbalanced by those less savory types.

So yes, let's celebrate this young man for what he has done but not for what his parents did. More importantly, let's debate the merits of immigration policy without resorting to fuzzy stories that don't tell the whole picture.

129 Cristoph, here, according to the WSJ, the McCain camp's telling them they paid for it.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/09/05/mccain-campaign-to-go-heart-less/

130 "That would be the Excel Center. They probably buy one annually given the scope and diversity of events that occur there."

I'm a bit doubtful about that last theory, ThomasD, since the Excel Center mostly puts bums in seats for sporting events and the like, and the McCain camp had about 40,000,000-50,000,000 people who've listened to that song by now while seeing Sarah "Barracuda" Palin for VP.

It could be, but it it would be like renting a presentation room at a convention centre and expecting them to have bought the rights to a DVD you plan on showing as part of your, "How to Be a Better Plumber" info-session. I doubt it.

Okay, that's a bit of an off-the-wall comparison, but AD said the McCain campaign purchased the license rights for public broadcast at the convention/

I remain optimistic that AD can back that up. If so, excellent, and I mean that.

131 I remain optimistic that AD can back that up. If so, excellent, and I mean that.

How do you want him to back it up? Did you read the link? Do you think McCain's people are lying? It seems Heart would have been all over that if it were untrue.

What more do you want?

132

Well, I'm waiting to see the police report indicating where these flags were stored; how they were stored; who last had legal custody of them; and when they were first noticed to be missing. We WILL see such a report won't we?

 

I'm still waiting. (drumming fingers on desk)

133 Thanks, AD! I'm glad to be proven wrong on that score. Intellectual property and copyright is something I believe is given short shrift too often. While I like McCain a lot compared to Obama, that stuck out to me.

I'm glad to see he did that right.

DrewM, by child I mean offspring of the parents, of course (and I don't mean to imply the U.S. has suddenly started using minors as soldiers), but okay, let's let that slide.

Yes, there are a lot of illegal immigrant criminals (beyond the rarely prosecuted immigration crimes in the U.S. Code) and I'm sure many of their children commit crimes. Possibly at higher rates than the general population, but I don't have any proof one way or the other.

"The fact is however, for every example of Olympic medalist, heroic soldiers and gosh darn wonderful person he uses, I can show one (likely more) examples of criminals or people who take from the system."

Sure you can. Anyone could. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't use examples that support his position.

Look, I think we've reached the point where we basically agree. You should toughen your border enforcement and immigration policy. However, for McCain like Bush, coming from border states where they know all sorts of good people who are friends with, family members of, etc., illegal immigrants, they've formed the view these are fine people and we shouldn't punish or chastize individuals especially for the sins of their parents.

I didn't have a problem with McCain's story. I heard it and did a little "ouch!" inside knowing some people wouldn't like it... but one of my things is while I see the broader patterns, I can also look at an issue in isolation rather than tie it to every other thing that's happening in the world.

And in isolation, it's a great story.

134 So now the Dems are calling the Veterans who rescued the Flags from the dumpster a bunch of thieves, huh?  Good luck with that.

135 "How do you want him to back it up?"

DrewM, I'd simply missed it skimming over the comments looking for the ones you and I made during our discussion. I accept the McCain campaign would only say that to the WSJ if it was true.

136 "So now the Dems are calling the Veterans who rescued the Flags from the dumpster a bunch of thieves, huh?  Good luck with that."

lol... yeah. I half expected it. But it's really dumb. Who in the donks is saying it?

137 Wickedpinto:

I'm wondering where you got your information re: the flag. I've poured through title 4 ch 1 of the US Code (the part that deals with the flag) and I can't find anything specifying size. In my interpretation any representation of the flag, including those cheap plastic ones, are covered and deserve the same respect as the Ensign.

BTW I found out that congress has amended the code to allow service members and veterans to salute the flag and anthem in civilian clothes.

138 "Friday afternoon, we heard back from the McCain campaign, which issued the following statement: “The McCain campaign respects intellectual property rights. Accordingly, prior to using ‘Barracuda’ at any events, we paid for and obtained all necessary licenses.”

That works for me. Now does anyone know if McCain can just say, "Screw it!" to Heart and keep on using the song with the license they have?

139 I would liek to state for the record I will defend to the death Bill Ayers' right to say what he wants, even if it means walking on a flag that millions have gone to their willing deaths under.

However I reserve the right to imagine beating that fuckstain's face in with a ball-peen hammer and giggle like a high-school girl in a sex shop.

140

“But instead his supporters wrongfully took leftover bundles of our flags from the stadium to play out a cheap political stunt calling into question our patriotism,” he said.

After all, EVERYONE KNOWS Democrats store their flags in trash bins.  Nuance.

 

141 Ah, hell, maybe I'm being hypocritical here.

When I was in Australia on a visitors visa, I was offered a chance by an Australian organization to do some web design work. I had the time while my girlfriend worked at her joband could have used the money... yet I didn't precisely because it was against Australia's laws and I felt obeying them was the right thing to do.

That said, I'm from Canada. If I were from some Godawful country and had a chance to flee it, especially for my children, wouldn't I?

Maybe the Europeans should have stayed home, but, you'll note, they didn't.

142 Why doesn't anyone really start questioning his patriotism.  Why doesn't hainnity or rush or any one of the others?  What am I missing?  Is this the new 3rd rail of politics?

143

This is good symbolism, but it doesn't mean much.

These are tinker toy flags, not a standard.  It is wasteful and stupid, but the degree of disrespect is minor, these are tinker toy flags, not actual standards/ensigns.

Use it, but I would like to know what anyone else does, when their memorial day flag is all worn out, and needs to be removed, and replaced with a newer one?  Do you go through the entire retiring proces before disposing of it in flames?

Posted by: wickedpinto at September 06, 2008 01:33 PM

I take mine to my local hardware store. They have a drop off box for worn flags. The Boy Scouts go through the entire retiring process before retiring them in flames.

144

Obama was called out early in the campaign for not wearing a lapel flag pin.

Also, anyone seen a flag on his campaign plane - I thought that was kind of SOP ?  Perhaps they have one on the plane but I didn't see one in the pic I saw.

Anyone remember Fannie Flagg ?

145

BTW I found out that congress has amended the code to allow service members and veterans to salute the flag and anthem in civilian clothes.

Awesome, and thanks for that info.  Like I mentioned, I'm speaking of STANDARDS, and ENSIGNS, not of just flags.

And MY reference, while ten years old, is only recently modified, I was using MCO 1410.24 F, which I used to know word for word, and title for title, and paragraph by paragraph.

Like I said, I'm a UNIFORM sorta fan.  general open orders are different, because open orders for civilians mean next to nothing.

Uniform orders mean a great deal.

146 Good Tinian that is very respectful, do you think MOST people do? and do you think LESS of those who don't make the effort you did?

147 Already debunked:

"Another statement from the Democratic National Convention Committee: 'Stories circulating about flags at the Democratic National Convention are false. We distributed more than 125,000 American made flags at the Convention - the flags removed from Invesco field were intended for other events and taken without permission. It's disappointing that someone would take American flags without authorization and then falsely describe how they were being used. We have the utmost respect for the American flag, and it's sad to see them being used for a cheap political stunt.' "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/06/thrown-away-flags-story-f_n_124499.html

148 "debunked:"

Sorry, but a statement from the DNC posted at Huffingtonpost is hardly a "debunking." Given that they were apparently being "stored" in a dumpster, it's hard to believe they were going to be used for "other events" besides landfill fodder.

149 Country First. Democrats=Green Convention, Republican= Red White and Blue Convention Fox is reporting the Democrats left behind flags from the Democratic Convention and did not properly dispose of them or give them away.

They were left in bags.

John McCain rescued these flags and they were handed out at the McCain Palin rally being held in Colorado Springs at 2PM ET.   From the Fight The Palin Smears web site: http://fightthepalinsmears.com/

150 notropis @148:

And you have the word of some unnamed "McCain supporters" about any of this.

Nothing about dumpsters, by the way.  Just another exagerration.

151 From the Fox story:

"The vendor supposedly found trash bags full of flags in and nearby dumpsters, and turned them over to the McCain campaign."

The word after "in and nearby" is "dumpsters."

152 notropis @151 -

Oh I see.  Not the story originally linked here and at Hot Air, but the "update" courtesy of  Mr. Accuracy himself, Carl Cameron at Fox News.  Which also only gives the accounts of unnamed "McCain supporters."

Got it.

153 Good Tinian that is very respectful, do you think MOST people do?

No

and do you think LESS of those who don't make the effort you did?

Yes.

Posted by: wickedpinto at September 06, 2008 05:48 PM

Remember when the left went batshit crazy because President George W. Bush autographed a tiny flag?

154 Looks like a pattern here...

Earlier story (and more pics) here:

http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstate/2008/aug/28/mystery-solved/

155

From Air Force Pamphlet 36-2241: There are nine different types of US flags.

Installation Flag - 8 feet 11 3/8 inches by 17 feet
All-weather flag (Storm) - 5 feet by 9 feet 6 inches nylon
All-purpose flag - 3 feet by 4 feet
Ceremonial Flag - 4 feet 4 inches by 5 feet 6 inches trimmed on three edges with yellow finge
Oraganizational Flag - 3 feet by 4 feet trimmed on three edges with yellow fringe
Interment Flag - 5 feet by 9 feet 6 inches of any material
Retirement Flag - 3 feet by 4 feet or 3 feet by 5 feet
Automobile Flags - 12 inch by 18 inch or 18 inch by 26 inch trimmed with yellow fringe or 6 inch by 9 inch without fringe

No disrespect is shown to the flag of the United States of America. Never:

Allow the flag to touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, floor or water.

Fasten, display, use, or store the flag in such a manner that it can be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.

There's a lot more to it than that. I paraphrased.

Sorry, but as a member of the military, this disregard for the symbol of our country and the self-same symbol that my friends and family have fought and died for really grinds my gears.

As for the comments by the Democrats that it was a stunt by the RNC to make them look bad...yeah, the Veterans and Boy Scouts who found those flags were just trying to make them look bad.

156 133 Thanks, AD! I'm glad to be proven wrong on that score.

So you couldn't have looked into the campaign's position before you condemned them as criminals?

Christoph, that's why we have an opposition. No need to go half-assed blue on blue. 

157 Right... They "left" them by the garbage for a week to be picked up by somebody?  Sort of like how I left that hobo in the creek.  I totally meant to have someone pick him up before he starte getting all bloated and shit.

158 147 Already debunked:

"Another statement from the Democratic National Convention Committee: 'Stories circulating about flags at the Democratic National Convention are false. We distributed more than 125,000 American made flags at the Convention - the flags removed from Invesco field were intended for other events and taken without permission. It's disappointing that someone would take American flags without authorization and then falsely describe how they were being used. We have the utmost respect for the American flag, and it's sad to see them being used for a cheap political stunt.' "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/06/thrown-away-flags-story-f_n_124499.html

Posted by: Zuzu at September 06, 2008 05:57 PM (tcd6/)

-

Again, it's been a week - I'm sure they can produce police reports for these stolen flags from last Friday, right?

I mean, 12,000 of them went missing -- they reported it to the police, right?  They obviously mentioned it to the press and it somehow slipped our notice . . .

What? They didn't? . . .

They only noticed it today?  Right after McCain presented the flags . . .

What a coincidence

Well, I'm sure they can list all the schools, hospitals, graves, and veterans groups that received the other 70,000 flag . . . you have that list, right?

159 fair point tinian, maybe thats another reaSON THAT I never recognized in my ego, and was sank into my id, as to why I don't fly a flag.

160 It is terrible, awful what the demoRATs did, but I think we have problems with this Sarah Palin woman and the flag. I am SO incensed with what I've found that I have built a webpage for the evidence. Make this woman HONOR the flag instead of ignore it!
http://palinflag.110mb.com/

161 Posted by: EricC at September 06, 2008 11:57 PM (JvCTa)

Hi, Moby

When Sarah Palin says she avoids wearing a flag pin out of principle because "it's become a substitute for true patriotism" and then quietly starts wearing one a few months later, let us know.

Anyway, it sure looks like she's wearing a flag pin to me:

Link

162 "So you couldn't have looked into the campaign's position before you condemned them as criminals?

"Christoph, that's why we have an opposition. No need to go half-assed blue on blue."

A fair point.

163

It's called "Victory" christoph.

You LOST, it's not "Fair." it's VICTORY.

A word the left is unfamiliar with.

164 More from the unamerican demacrap party one must question the igorant stupid hollyweed liberal who support the demacrap party

165 Eric C.: Nice web page, with good observations and questions.

166 Posted by: James McPherson at September 07, 2008 12:00 PM (wuUsk)

Hi EricC

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Posted by: سيف at March 09, 2009 04:32 AM (pfpIP)