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Never Surrender!

The left is of course having all sorts of orgasms over the astonishing news that a seventeen year old girl had sex and became pregnant. (Only happens to conservative Christians, you know; conservative Christians never discuss or practice birth control, and every teenager who's not a conservative Christian has a perfect track record of using birth control.

One of the most mind-blowing statements today, however, is from a lefty still pushing Trig Trutherism:

Of course. A conservative family that can't even control their own daughter's sexual behavior. Is that what we want in a potential President? An unmarried pregnant girl about to have her second child out of wedlock. Her first, unfortunately, has Downs syndrome. Palin is the WORST choice McCain could have made. The man doesn't think with the head on his shoulders.

Incidentally, just for the sake of comparison: Mama Obama was three months pregnant when she married her footloose and fancy-free Kenyan paramour.

None on the right, as far as I know, even thought of making an issue of this. What possible issue could be made? Who the fuck cares? What has it to do with the price of tea in China?

So, we, the moral scolds, never even considered going after Obama's family just to vaguely kinda-sorta get at him in some way.

Perhaps we're just not as imaginative as the lefties are as to the political usefulness of our opponents' family members' out-of-wedlock pregnancies.

From the Department of Things That Make You Go "Yawn"...

Madamoiselle Milky Loads is still demanding proof that Sarah Palin is Trig's mother -- even after it's been revealed Bristol is pregnant.

Now they've cleared the air on this - and good for them - what harm would it do to release the medical records showing that Sarah Palin delivered Trig on April 18 in Wasilla? This is not hard: there must be an obstetrician, medical records, and data that can easily refute this rumor. It is not out of the ordinary either: candidates routinely issue medical records. So let's have them. And then we can move on.

No, actually, we can move on as of before this was even viciously pushed as a smear.

And then he prints this reader's musings that it's still medically possible (though unlikey) that Bristol had back-to-back births, one kept secret, one revealed:

A reader points out what is left implicit in the Palins' statement:

I'm not sure how to say this politely, but if Bristol Palin is more than three and a half months' pregnant, it is physically impossible for her to have given birth on the 18th of April to Trig.

I know with "about five months" it's difficult to be certain what they mean, which is why most doctors talk in weeks. But basically a pregnancy is calculated as 40 weeks, and is dated from the previous period so for the first two weeks of the 'pregnancy' one is not actually pregnant.

Women tend to take at least six weeks to start ovulating again, and often several months. Say Bristol is very young and made a medically exceptional recovery - the very very earliest she could have become pregnant 'again' would be from mid May, which would put her at three and a half months pregnant.

Check this out, as Sullivan seems almost persuaded that Trig is Sarah's baby:


Also, and for me this is the clincher:

it's pretty horrible down there [i.e., the vagina -- ed.] for quite a while after giving birth, most doctors will order no sex for at least six weeks, and well let's be honest, most men wouldn't want to go there for at least six weeks. And most women certainly won't be in the mood for just as long. Which means that again she is unlikely to be more than three months pregnant if she gave birth in April.

This seems persuasive to me.

I'll bet it does, Power Glutes. Ick!

Now back to Sullivan... sort of persuaded, but damn, he wants those records just the same:

But it's based entirely on a vague verbal statement. Why not kill this rumor with Palin's medical records?

Because you have many of the symptoms of AIDS-dementia and steroid-rage, and you're a conspiratorial crank lunatic, and we typically don't "prove the Moon landing really happened" just because some sick-n-twisted brain damaged boytwat has some doubts about the "flutter in the flag"?


Alas, it's not just the far left. The Sexual Taliban Types of the right can be assholes too.

Given Sarah’s own eloping with Todd timing, it may be that she in fact passed down the same values.
Correction/Clarification: The author of this line writes to tell me his meaning here is the opposite from what I took it to be: That he means that Bristol got her pro-life values from Sarah. Fair enough. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Here's the response from another Freeper:

Except for the FACT that they just celebrated their 20th wedding anniversay last Friday and their eldest son in 18.

Quit passing idiotic speculation, slander, and gossip.

Another goon steps in to say...

Actually, this is not a good thing. It is a statement that some of those familly values that Sarah is advancing could not even be passed along to her own kid.

I still like Palin, but, if true, this is not good.

It's this punitive and unrealistic worldview that gives conservatives, and especially conservative Christians, a bad name.

Listen up, Stupid: You can do "all the right things" and live your life according to Christ and teach your kids values and all that stuff, but guess what? You're still going to sin.

Your religion, in fact, explicitly states that no one is without sin, except Christ, so implying otherwise is a direct heresy against Christ's teachings.

And furthermore so will your kids sin. And their grandkids.

The worldview is utterly naive and unrealistic, which would simply be chuckleworthy, if not for the other part of it: Because there is among some this heretical belief that accepting Christ is a perfect defense against all sins, these jackoffs become nasty and gleefully judgmental about others falling short. It's not really morality; it's just a pretext for self-celebration and exulting in the travails of others.

Christ didn't ask you to be smug nasty prick, did He? No, I don't think that's among his teachings.

Part of this is unavoidable on the right. Part of the great right/left cultural divide concerns the usefulness of prohibitions and judgment to reduce bad or self-destructive behavior, versus accepting and even celebrating those who stray or fall.

To be quite frank, this is one of those Great Questions that really can't ever be answered because they're both kinda true. Without some semblance of a moral code and some pushing of self-restraint and adherence to that code, bad behavior increases, because there's simply no internal inhibitors.

On the other hand, if it's all code and all judgment and all punitive scorn, it's just plain nasty, especially given that those being burdened with social scorn are probably also burdened by a lot more than that and hardly need additional penalties levied on them.

Without some degree of social disapproval there is license and encouragement of behaviors best kept in check; without compassion and understanding for those who fall short there is a somewhat inhuman delight in scapegoating and schadenfreude.

I don't know what the proper balance is. As a social conservative I suspect it ought to be drawn a bit closer to the prohibitory side and further from the approval/acceptance side than it is now.

On the other hand, I know for damnsure it's not where some of these nasty Church Ladies think it ought to be, stroking their turgid moral superiorities as they take delight in the fact that they exercise more sexual restraint than a seventeen year old girl in the full bloom of her sexual maturation and to whom love is a new and all-consuming emotion.

For God's sakes, the girl's getting married and having the kid. She did things a bit out of the preferred order. We're going to brand her a whore for that?

This strong-form punitive morality backfires because it makes a mockery of itself. Liberals find their goo-goo worldview mocked because they falsely cry concern over crap they actually could care less about; they just know it's socially required to feign concern. Everyone knows they're full of shit, preposterously so, and so even their better points get ignored in the lachrymonious wash of endless compassion. "Compassion fatigue," a few pundits called this as the nation turned right and the nation didn't seem as receptive to liberal bullying anymore. We'd had enough of the endless moral preening and innumerable moral imperatives and just tuned them out.

No one wants to be preached at. Or rather, some like being preached at, but for a couple of hours on Saturday or Sunday, thank you, and by a representative off the church we've selected, and not 24/7 by an endless parade of Concern Scolds who have appointed themselves Conscience Ministers Without Portfolio and General Universal Missionaries for Caring.

But the same effect happens when strict moral conservatives just won't give it a fucking rest about sex and older forms of conventional morality. There is not a much bigger audience for that, either. It's not as if people are looking to be bullied without pause by self-appointed Morality Inspectors all goddamn day long, and it's just that we dislike the particular service offered by the liberal moral scolds.

Call this Morality Fatigue. Yes, I kind of agree with most of what you say about morality, at least to some extent. But you know what? I didn't fucking ask you to serve as my substitute conscience, nor to be my proxy in moral scolding anyone who errs, and if I were seeking someone to fill such a position, I'd want to see a resume and references first. I'd want to know that you actually are qualified for the position.

And, quite frankly, your enthusiasm for this job does not count in your favor, nor does your presumptuousness in performing the job's fuctions before I've made you a formal offer of employment.

A bit of reluctance to accept the title, even if offered, might just increase your odds of landing the job.

I really don't see how this buffoonish, cartoonish view of human morality (and immorality) serves the purposes of moral teaching at all. It makes mockery of the whole idea of morality and thereby drives people towards nihilism. People confuse message and messenger all the time. And if the messenger seems like he's full of shit, it's easy to conclude that so must the message be, too.

The View from Wasilla: Mind your own goddamned business seems to be the ethic in Alaska, and I think we could use a bit of those small-town values down here in the lower 48.

Thanks to Laddy and AQ.

Okay, Maybe Two Were Without Sin: Meep speaks up for the Papists:

Hey! Correction: Mary was also without sin. (Ok, maybe the non-Catholics don't agree with the Immaculate Conception, i.e., that Mary was conceived without Original Sin, but I want to speak up for the Mother of God.)

But the point is, of course, that even the saints sinned. Reading St. Augustine's Confessions will let one know about that. And sexual sin is one of the most popular ones....(as mentioned by Augustine as well.)

Lord, give me constancy and chastity, but don't give it to me yet.

Catholic Teaching... on Mary's sin is apparently nuanced. Or at least commenters are disagreeing about it. I have no idea.

I have to be honest here. Everything I know of Catholic theology comes from The Exorcist and The Prophecy.

I'm really not being snarky. It's just that Catholicism is the go-to religious milleu for horror movies, and that's pretty much where I get all of my information about everything.

Posted by: Ace at 03:35 PM



Comments

1 Exactly.

Nicely put. 

Posted by: mesablue at September 01, 2008 03:38 PM (5yNaE)

2 Ace, excellent post and insight as useful.

If you want to get the bad taste out of your mouth for a moment, here's a classy Time piece about this.

Also, Obama's made a good statement about it, although his numerous radical leftist supporters are being their vicious selves.

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 03:38 PM (hawOV)

3 a lot of sympathy for Palin and Bristol at the Hillary! forums
http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=26860

Posted by: The Chewbacca Defense at September 01, 2008 03:41 PM (nuuDA)

4

Nicely played, sir.

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at September 01, 2008 03:42 PM (wgLRl)

5 Some of the best stuff you've ever written, Ace, and I agree completely.  Consider this
an "Amen" or "preach it, brutha".

Maybe it's because I'm older or something but, damn, some of this shit hitting the
wire is just plain damn silly.  Somebody out there needs a trip to the woodshed.


Posted by: prairiemain at September 01, 2008 03:43 PM (uDqa7)

6 Hey! Correction: Mary was also without sin. (Ok, maybe the non-Catholics don't agree with the Immaculate Conception, i.e., that Mary was conceived without Original Sin, but I want to speak up for the Mother of God.)

But the point is, of course, that even the saints sinned. Reading St. Augustine's Confessions will let one know about that. And sexual sin is one of the most popular ones....(as mentioned by Augustine as well.)

Posted by: meep at September 01, 2008 03:43 PM (7uTCa)

7 Ace says is best.  Nice post.

Kids screw up.  It's when they screw up that you often see who has good parents and who doesn't.

This lady will have a good life, and I think her infant will grow up well.  She won't have the psychological problems associated with convenience abortion (which many on the left are demanded so the woman can 'travel and study'').

And the lies about this family will snowball ridiculously.  I think it's too early for a dishonest smear to work for the democrats.  They always backfire, which is why they do better just before the election.  I'm sure we'll hear something stupid before the election, but these smears, I hope every American hears them, hears them rebutted, and realizes what the Democrats are: so desperate for power they will destroy and lie.

That John Mccain chose Sarah in spite of this 'scandal' shows that he clearly is a leader who is willing to take some flack to get a VP he knows will fight corruption and lead if called upon.

Posted by: Shill at September 01, 2008 03:44 PM (8jYMc)

8 Woo hoo!!!

Call to order at the RNCC.


Posted by: mesablue at September 01, 2008 03:44 PM (5yNaE)

9 Expecting perfection from humans 24/7 is ridiculous. What one does after making an error is what matters. A big part of the Lefitst agenda goes against human nature in a demand for an incorrect "perfection" ,with everyone else paying for it. A big part of the Right is taking responsibility for one's mistakes and dealing with the consequences on one's own terms.

Posted by: mbruce at September 01, 2008 03:45 PM (h/5U0)

10 And another thing .... this reaction from our insane cousins on the left .... when is
the last time you saw anything like this?  There are levels of insane and this reaction
to Palin is category 5 insane. Are they THAT afraid of her???  Some polls somewhere
must be setting off all five alarms at DNC HQ.

Posted by: prairiemain at September 01, 2008 03:46 PM (uDqa7)

11

I heard that the baby is going to be a newt. Is that true?

 

 

Posted by: Bart at September 01, 2008 03:47 PM (eGRG+)

12 Milky Loads quotes a reader:

"it's pretty horrible down there [i.e., the vagina -- ed.] for quite a while after giving birth"

It's always "pretty horrible down there" for Power Glutes!

Posted by: Masturbatin' Pete at September 01, 2008 03:48 PM (qPHMe)

13 BTW, just in case, for a fraction of a second, anybody was considering hanging their heads and conceding to Sullivan in all this--he's apparently still pushing the "Sarah may have faked the pregnancy" bit:

Link

Posted by: AD at September 01, 2008 03:49 PM (PeYVg)

14 Perfect pitch. My favorite part:

And, quite frankly, your enthusiasm for this job does not count in your favor, nor does your presumptuousness in assuming you've already kind of landed the position. A bit of reluctance to accept the title, even if offered, might just increase your odds of landing the job.

Posted by: George Orwell at September 01, 2008 03:51 PM (AZGON)

15 BTW, just in case, for a fraction of a second, anybody was considering hanging their heads and conceding to Sullivan in all this

That man is no longer known as "Sullivan" on moronblogs. He is now forever known as Milky Loads, Power Glutes, HARDNSOLIDDC,  Rawmuslglutes, or something else taken from his barebacking personal ads.

Ace, back me up.

Posted by: Masturbatin' Pete at September 01, 2008 03:53 PM (qPHMe)

16 Power Glutes: The Milky Power Protein Drink of Lapsed Conservatives since 2003!

Posted by: George Orwell at September 01, 2008 03:53 PM (AZGON)

17

It's pretty horrible down there, Andrew agrees?

But another dude's hairy anus and colon is pleasant?

Posted by: Bart at September 01, 2008 03:53 PM (eGRG+)

18

McCain/Palin 2008

Don't let Obama through another grandma under the bus.

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at September 01, 2008 03:53 PM (wgLRl)

19 I've been busy adding the Sullivan shit, which was tipped to me earlier but I somehow forgot it... It's in there now.

Posted by: ace at September 01, 2008 03:53 PM (1WR4H)

20 Actually, to do the dirty work, it looks like he's backed off that a little, but he's still "asking questions" and skeptical about it. (I'll follow the policy, I'm not going to link)

Posted by: AD at September 01, 2008 03:54 PM (PeYVg)

21

Epic FAIL.

through=throw

Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at September 01, 2008 03:54 PM (wgLRl)

22 >>But another dude's hairy anus and colon is pleasant?

Hey thanks, Bart. I was just wondering what my lunch would taste like after an hour in my stomach.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 01, 2008 03:56 PM (VBon8)

23 They're stuck on stupid.

Posted by: General Honore at September 01, 2008 03:57 PM (eGRG+)

24 Nice story in Time about the pregnancy. Everyone in Wasilla has known about it for a while and don't think it's anyone's business.

Link

Posted by: Laddy at September 01, 2008 03:57 PM (fOChA)

25 I love hearing morality preached... especially from a man wearing and actual beagle dog collar.

Posted by: George Orwell at September 01, 2008 03:57 PM (AZGON)

26

Let's pile on.  The daddy's name is "Levi."  Hmmmmm.  Sounds suspiciously, um, non-gentile, if you get my drift.

Oh, and Todd has a DWI.

"her husband had been arrested for driving under the influence in 1986."  (When he was what, 21?)

(helpful information from the Beeb. )

And Sarah's teeth?  Crest Whitestrips.

 

Posted by: notropis at September 01, 2008 03:58 PM (KWUsS)

27

Excellent post. 

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

(Stuff Jesus said, Vol. 1)

Posted by: Bugler at September 01, 2008 03:58 PM (YCVBL)

28 Good won, George Orwell!

Posted by: Laddy at September 01, 2008 03:58 PM (fOChA)

29 But another dude's hairy anus and colon is pleasant?

 Wow, now there's an image I could've lived my entire life without.

Posted by: Benson at September 01, 2008 04:00 PM (qzcNU)

30 Ace, you are on fire. Yesterday's Milky Loads post and this one are golden.

Posted by: Laddy at September 01, 2008 04:01 PM (fOChA)

31

Andrew Sullivan channels the Marquis De Sade, so he is valuable to some artists and wrong-headed mystics. Of course, he will produce the most perfect dreams that are perverse, paranoid, and self-destructive.

The Left's paranoia can destroy the Left's candidate. Their fear of Palin will grow steadily. Get ready for the worst.

Posted by: John Marshall at September 01, 2008 04:01 PM (5T52g)

32 Let me get this right...

He wants the medical records of a private US citizen, in order to disprove some crap he made up out of whole cloth?

Well I think Sully is a drug mule, and I want the his bank records, medical records, and vehicle maintenance records to prove that he is not.  Because that is the EXACT type of society I want to live in!

K

Posted by: Kestrel at September 01, 2008 04:01 PM (gBnKJ)

33 Spot on, Ace!

Posted by: Andy at September 01, 2008 04:01 PM (iIvIk)

34

I love hearing morality preached... especially from a man wearing and actual beagle dog collar.

Lay off, man, that's his wedding collar.

 

 

 

Posted by: Bart at September 01, 2008 04:01 PM (eGRG+)

35 CPAC Blogger of the fucking YEAR!!!

Very well said, Ace.  Very well indeed.

Posted by: wiserbud at September 01, 2008 04:02 PM (EW49d)

36

On the other hand, I know for damnsure it's not where some of these nasty Church Ladies think it ought to be, stroking their turgid moral superiorities as they take delight in the fact that they exercise more sexual restraint than a seventeen year old girl in the full bloom of her sexual maturation and to whom love is a new and all-consuming emotion.

Oh BARF.  You borrowing your analogies from Harlequin now?

Incidentally, you don't have to be a Bible Thumper to expect a little morality and restraint in a person.

Either way, this stuff about Palin's family shouldn't play in her political viability.

Posted by: Barbelle at September 01, 2008 04:03 PM (qF8q3)

37 Boytwat  is my new favorite slur.

This story is only going to add to Palin's appeal. And the boytwats who think pushing this is going to hurt the ticket in the bible belt are just proving once again they don't understand flyover country.

And is it just me, or did  Palin go from zero to WORSE THAN DICK CHENEY in about five seconds?  This woman is so awesome she needs her own "cool  facts" ala Norris or Bolton, except she's done so many exceptional things they could be "TRUE cool facts".

Posted by: nightwitch at September 01, 2008 04:04 PM (dfTf5)

38 Fucking kids.

Posted by: km at September 01, 2008 04:05 PM (HfOm0)

39

"a seventeen year old girl in the full bloom of her sexual maturation and to whom love is a new and all-consuming emotion."

i'll be in my bunk...

 

no, wonderful post, ace, thanks!

Posted by: Adrian at September 01, 2008 04:05 PM (Eu/Um)

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 04:06 PM (hawOV)

41 >>>You borrowing your analogies from Harlequin now?

Maybe my phrasing was stupid, but he idea is sound.

I've never been more driven more by pure hide-your-boner lust, nor more powerfully "in love," than I was at sixteen.  I had nonstop boners and thought about nothing other than sex.

The only thing I thought more about than sex was how amazingly incredibly in love I was with this month's crush-girl and how I wanted to marry her and raise rabbits.

How about you guys?


Posted by: ace at September 01, 2008 04:07 PM (1WR4H)

42 Add-on thought. Or Bristol's, for that matter.

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 04:09 PM (hawOV)

43 Sounds about right, ace. Sounds exactly about right.

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 04:10 PM (hawOV)

44

It's a weird world that puts a guy like me (atheist, classical liberal) in the same political party as judgemental assholes like the people heaping scorn on Sarah and Bristol Palin over this.  It's my hope that most Democrats feel the same about the freaks over at DailyKos or DU. 

Posted by: Big E at September 01, 2008 04:10 PM (RWzXM)

45 These past two days have made it abundantly clear how ghoulish Andrew Sullivan really is.  How much of a depraved and twisted old fruitcake that he is.  Perhaps medical records should be provided to this vile, wretched pervert with the deal that he may no longer speak or write about anything again.  Then we would finally be spared his nauseatingly self-righteous panty waste blathering, and he would have more quality bathhouse time.  F--king scumbag.

Posted by: Reggie1971 at September 01, 2008 04:10 PM (MueH0)

46 Since Asshole is clearly demonstrating AIDS dementia, I think we need to see all of his medical records to know for sure exactly what's going on.

Posted by: Kensington at September 01, 2008 04:10 PM (xFNQx)

47 My thoughts exactly, ace.

Posted by: Techie at September 01, 2008 04:11 PM (yjPD8)

48 By the way, that's why I think that's a very appropriate age to both get married and have sex: preferably in that order, but understandably if in the other.

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 04:11 PM (hawOV)

49 At least they didn't ship her off to Europe for an Abortion, like they did to Chelsea! 

Posted by: hutch1200 at September 01, 2008 04:11 PM (bKGzL)

50 Ace, you just kicked a whole heap of ass.

Posted by: morbo at September 01, 2008 04:12 PM (DDKPv)

51 How about you guys?

Well if you change "crush-girl" to "boy" and "marry" to "take milky loads", then yeah, I'm with you.

Posted by: St. Andrew of the Heartache (aka THE true conservative) at September 01, 2008 04:12 PM (hlYel)

52 "At least they didn't ship her off to Europe for an Abortion, like they did to Chelsea! "

That's disgusting, hutch1200, without evidence.

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 04:13 PM (hawOV)

53

ace, I was 15-19. Worst years of my life. Nearly committed suicide at the end of it.

It's different for girls I assume.

Posted by: David Ross at September 01, 2008 04:16 PM (ThkMv)

54

I am a Christian and have three daughters, ages eleven, twelve and seventeen, and a stepdaughter age sixteen. If I can get all four of them off to college, independant life or marriage without any of them being pregnant, I will not feel self-righteous or smug.

I will feel relief.

Posted by: Immolate at September 01, 2008 04:16 PM (CcY2L)

55 Correction to your correction: The Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary states that Mary was born without the taint of original sin, not that she remained sinless throughout her life. The latter remains, to the best of my knowledge, an open question upon which it is acceptable to come to differing conclusions.

Posted by: Eukardios at September 01, 2008 04:16 PM (96qG1)

56 hutch, and I mean this without malice, I invite you to apologise for that last statement.

Posted by: David Ross at September 01, 2008 04:17 PM (ThkMv)

57 Ace -

I agree with everything here except the slurs against Sullivan.  And I say this as someone who yields to no man in his disdain for Sullivan.  This weekend has only reinforced my preexisting belief that he was utterly contemptible - just a bad human being.  But the AIDS dementia and "milky loads" slurs are not only nasty, and unfair, they're unhelpful.

I know your rationale, Ace - I've read every post on Sully you've ever written - but I still think it's wrong.  Tu quoque is always a shitty excuse, and while Sullivan's hypocrisy - real, manifest hypocrisy, not just the sort of implied "BECAUSE OF TEH HYPOCRISY!" crap that lefties conjure to excuse disgusting attacks on GOP politicians - is undeniable, you only look weak for sinking to his level.  Because it's unnecessary!  You can call him all sorts of loopy (and perfectly appropriate) epithets without even having to go there!  It's a mere substitute for creativity in your invective, and it also just looks bad. 

I am not, however, gob-smacked and filled with heartache by this vile rhetoric.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 01, 2008 04:17 PM (BWTSB)

58 How many date rapes did Bidens son commit while a Frat Boy?

Posted by: hutch1200 at September 01, 2008 04:18 PM (bKGzL)

59 Hahahaha, how 'bout it? When you see the crown of your first child's head push through the love of your life's vulva, stretching it to the size of a dinner plate? The first thought that goes through your mind is- Damn, I wish they made 245x16 steel belted radials out of that shit.

Posted by: dr kill at September 01, 2008 04:18 PM (JWAjn)

60 Well, Richard Brookheiser wanted a new base, right?  I suggest he team up with the folks left and right who will be all in a tizzy about this news.  Please take the Trig Troofers with you Rick.  Enjoy your new base.  As an added plus for you, all of them have also been very energized by the war in Iraq too, and thus didn't need the addition of Governor Palin to the ticket to whip them into a frenzy.

Posted by: funky chicken at September 01, 2008 04:18 PM (xyyHG)

61 I've never been more driven more by pure hide-your-boner lust, nor more powerfully "in love," than I was at sixteen.  I had nonstop boners and thought about nothing other than sex. The only thing I thought more about than sex was how amazingly incredibly in love I was with this month's crush-girl and how I wanted to marry her and raise rabbits.How about you guys?

Yeah, my girlfriend and I were naming babies at that point.

There are many lessons I intend to pass on to my kids, but one big one is this: As soon as you find yourself naming babies, STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND COME TO ME OR YOUR MOTHER. Love is great, but we're going to need to have a talk at that point, because infatuation like that taken too far almost always leads to gob-smacking heart-ache.

Fuck, I can't get Power Glutes out of my head!


Posted by: Masturbatin' Pete at September 01, 2008 04:18 PM (qPHMe)

62 What does Biden Mean by "I rode the Amtrak every night?".

Posted by: hutch1200 at September 01, 2008 04:19 PM (bKGzL)

63 Slut!!!

Posted by: KOS at September 01, 2008 04:19 PM (PfmeB)

64 What kind of Chicago Orgies does a "Community Organizer" facilitate?

Posted by: hutch1200 at September 01, 2008 04:20 PM (bKGzL)

65

Eukardios, Mary would have to have remained sinless between her birth and Jesus's. That's heavily implied (since the whole point of the doctrine is to give Jesus a stainless womb to be birthed from). It's similar to the Muslim doctrine that the prophets are protected from sin, and for exactly the same reason (the carrier of the Word of God).

After Jesus's birth, Mary is free to do the thing with her lawfully wedded husband Joseph, have Jesus's brothers, make mistakes and sin etc.

Posted by: David Ross at September 01, 2008 04:21 PM (ThkMv)

66

Ace, great post.

The sad fact of the matter is that conservatives always and everywhere have to be twice as upstanding as their liberal counterparts, or else face a hypocricy charge.  Any perceived moral failing on the part of a conservative is always going to be used to bash the conservative message.  But does any serious voter out there really believe that Bristol Palin becoming pregnant out of wedlock changes even the tiniest aspect of what Sarah Palin believes as a conservative?  Does it invalidate in any way the conservative message?  Does it in any way cause us to compromise our own conservative beliefs when we step in that booth a pull the lever for McCain/Palin?  Nope. So let us be calm and confident.  This is already passing into yesterday's news.  It shouldn't even have been today's news but sadly, that is the world in which we live these days. 

Of course it is maddening to have to listen to liberals shriek in delight at Sarah and Todd Palin's difficult situation as parents.  But in the final analysis, we know who we are and what we are, and we will keep fighting to support the message even when some among us fall short of living that message.  It is the ideas and ideals of conservatism that truly matter.  They don't belong to one person and are not dependent for their validity on the actions any any one person.  So lets not let the celebrating of the libtards about this get under our skin too much.

 

Posted by: JayC at September 01, 2008 04:21 PM (c7q/3)

67 Why does Michelle Obama surround herself with only females at her 300k gig at that hospital? Fucking dyke!

Posted by: hutch1200 at September 01, 2008 04:21 PM (bKGzL)

68 Why don't they kill the Bastard!!!!! I hate Christians

Posted by: DNC at September 01, 2008 04:22 PM (PfmeB)

69

I've felt for some time that Sullivan was in serious need of an intervention by his loved ones.  His obsession with Trig Palin has only convinced me further.  Ace's mockery is far less cruel to Sullivan than the inaction of the people who surround him and claim to care for him.

The guy has lost his mind and continually makes a fool of himself in public.  Somebody, please, get him to retire.

Posted by: funky chicken at September 01, 2008 04:23 PM (xyyHG)

70 You're a nasty person, hutch1200. I suspect you're an agent provacateur. Either way, you're contemptible.

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 04:23 PM (hawOV)

71 >>It's different for girls I assume.

Starting to get that Joe Jackson feeling.

Posted by: JackStraw at September 01, 2008 04:24 PM (VBon8)

72 "But the AIDS dementia and "milky loads" slurs are not only nasty, and unfair, they're unhelpful."

WRONG!  It is a relevant extension of Sullivan's own standards of inquiry.  Having abandoned rationality, coherence and decency, his behavior is consistent with AIDS dementia, and since he finds ridiculous circumstantial evidence compelling enough to make crazy demands invading the medical privacy of Sarah Palin, it's only reasonable that he should prove to us via his own medical records that he isn't currently suffering AIDS dementia.

Posted by: Kensington at September 01, 2008 04:24 PM (xFNQx)

73 Ace, why do you even quote this idiot Sullivan?

Quit working yourself up.

Posted by: thebronze at September 01, 2008 04:24 PM (YlH3h)

74 BTW, hutch100 is a moby from way back in the day.

Ignore.

Posted by: Techie at September 01, 2008 04:25 PM (yjPD8)

75 Why do Keefy and Chrissy...never mind....BTW, feel free to delete all my previous moronic(tm)  posts. It was meant to show that we COULD, could, be scumbags too. I'm glad we only do the K/C lovefest shit in jest.... I really don't want peoples MedRecs....Just a checkup, from the Neckup.

Posted by: hutch1200 at September 01, 2008 04:25 PM (bKGzL)

76 And, also, the comment about Chelsea Clinton having an abortion in Europe is disgusting, and the poster should retract it immediately.

Posted by: Kensington at September 01, 2008 04:25 PM (xFNQx)

77 "I've never been more driven more by pure hide-your-boner lust, nor more powerfully "in love," than I was at sixteen.  I had nonstop boners and thought about nothing other than sex."

Ah yeah.  11th Grade.  First period.  The lovely girl with initials NK on my right.  The horror!

Posted by: JB at September 01, 2008 04:25 PM (qxc7J)

78 Many Obama supporters are just assholes.  They haven't had much time in politics to understand that it's better if everyone is fair in the scandal game, so they make up whatever they want as though this is a soap opera/porn.

For example, I recall reading this on an Obama political forum by "Proud Socialist Democrat":
Who is Chelsea Clinton's BIOLOGICAL father?? Many of us in the Obama following haven't accepted the Clinton's support for our candidate, considering how RUDE they were towards Barack all these recent months.

One of the things that bothers us is their OBVIOUS scam with Chelsea Clinton. A while back, there were lots of questions about Chelsea and the fact that she looks A LOT like Hillary's old flame Web Hubbell.

To make matters more complicated, Bill Clinton was apparently accused of sexual assault years ago and when that happened, he claimed he was "sterile" all his life as some sort of defense against the charges.

If that's the case... if Willie's "willie" was out-of-order, then how did he father Chelsea Clinton? Heck, all one needs to do is look at HER photo and then look at one of WEB HUBBELL and the resemblance is striking!

I dare ONE REPORTER to ask the question of them on national TV. Just ONE reporter.http://www.politicalforum.com/current-events/46888-who-chelsea-clintons-biological-father.html

In my opinion, these Obama supporters are just having weird fantasies.  It's like masturbation to them to scandalously paint the children of Obama's rivals.  To many of them, the truth about this pregnancy isn't a refutation of the earlier pregnancy (though scientifically it appears to be), to them, it's actually made things worse.

I think one way to productively talk about this is to link the talk about Sarah Palin's family to the talk about Hillary Clinton's family.  Women get lied about, and there's a presumption they must be free of even the appearance of problems in their kids, but men get to do whatever they want.  Obama's supporters don't care that Bill fucked Monica or Edwards fucked Rielle.  They only want to attack women who oppose Obama with fake sex scandals.

Posted by: Shill at September 01, 2008 04:27 PM (8jYMc)

79 #70 - Kensington:

Har har, I get it.  Very clever.  Still wrong, still stupid.  Look, I'm a kinder, gentler moron.  I think we can attack/parry - with lots of hilarity and vulgarity, etc. - without going here.  We end up sounding like Kossites unless we restrain ourselves.  Goddammit, I will NOT accede to that.  Not even for a guy as worthy of being torn apart in the public square as Andrew Sullivan.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 01, 2008 04:27 PM (BWTSB)

80 It was a bit of a rant, but pretty much on target.

I think one tie that binds most conservatives together is the general displeasure with sanctimonious control freaks (i.e., liberalism).  And I while I would be a liar if I did not admit that some Christians fall in that category, the vast majority seem to land right on the side of being mindful of their own need of divine grace and mercy.  Those are the people who are then able to offer what they receive to others.

Posted by: DCox at September 01, 2008 04:27 PM (2pT9a)

81 For some reason the iralics failed.

Everything from the bold to the hyperlink came from an Obama supporter, and I realize that Chelsea is obviously Bill's daughter.

Posted by: Shill at September 01, 2008 04:27 PM (8jYMc)

82 hutch1200 is not a moby.  He's a longtime commenter and was at the Moronpalooza in Boston, toting a knife, if I remember right.

Just in case.


Posted by: ace at September 01, 2008 04:28 PM (1WR4H)

83 Correction to your correction of the correction:

The Catholic Church teaches that Mary committed no sin throughout her life. (scroll down to 411).

A difficult dogma to grasp, even for many Catholics. I've always thought of it this way: if you're saying that Mary indeed did commit sins with no evidence of any actual sins, you're committing calumny. Or to put it another way, you're saying "Hey Jesus! Your mom's a sinner!" I'm not prepared to do that

Posted by: Masturbatin' Pete at September 01, 2008 04:28 PM (qPHMe)

84 I meant #72 Kensington...my bad.

Posted by: Jeff B. at September 01, 2008 04:28 PM (BWTSB)

85 hutch you need to shut the fuck up. Seriously, just stop.


This smear clearly has nothing to do with Obama. It is so stupid that you know it is the work of nutroots. He also told them to cut it out, so if everyone ignores them they will probably stop.


If you take steroids you eventually grow tits like an old female monkey. lol

Posted by: bleh at September 01, 2008 04:29 PM (GNCy6)

86

One thing to keep in mind is that sexual morality has never been a strong suit of humanity throughout history. Even in puritan New England, one of the strictest societies ever in terms of morality and behavior, the sex before marriage rate was at least 4% or so. [We know this from comparing marriage dates and birth dates. I'm travelling so I don't have access to the exact numbers.] The actual rate of sexual contact that didn't result in pregnancies must have been at least double this. So in practice the Puritans weren't exactly puritan when it came to actual behavior despite all the social conditioning and pressure.

Posted by: Maetenloch at September 01, 2008 04:29 PM (Ab2VX)

87 Jeff B.:  I'm not joking.  Sullivan made the bed.  He should lie in it.

Posted by: Kensington at September 01, 2008 04:29 PM (xFNQx)

88

If I was the left Id worry more about Biden's son Beau and how Joe Biden used his office to make him richer

 

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-biden28-2008aug28,0,2823950,full.story

 

 

Posted by: William Amos at September 01, 2008 04:30 PM (JOZ3S)

89 It's obvious now that Karl Rove was directly responsible for pushing the Sarah/grandmother story knowing that after the bait was taken it would be easy to disprove.

What other faux stories does he have lined up to dump on the useful idiots to make them look stupid? After all Rove planned hurricane Gustav to hit right at the beginning of the Republican convention.

Posted by: liontooth at September 01, 2008 04:30 PM (n3pxb)

90

Ace, there is a reason I read this board several times a day.

This post, and those like it are the reason.

Keep up the good work, brother.

Posted by: Mortis at September 01, 2008 04:30 PM (jhjz7)

91 Kensington, while talking about Sullivan using nasty discourse might be how he'd treat us, that doesn't make it ok.

It is kinda disgusting to repeatedly talk about milky-loads.  I don't really care if you do or not, but that point of view is pretty valid.  He's wrong because he's a fucking nutcase and totally unfair to everyone he disagrees with.  He lies and he hates.  His being homosexual has nothing to do with it.  You're not offending me or anything, but yeah, I think it's a legit complaint that those kinds of remarks distract from Sullivan's actual problem.

Posted by: Shill at September 01, 2008 04:31 PM (8jYMc)

92 aww jeez, you guys were doing so well there for a minute.

now your innate pussiness is re-emerging

Posted by: Bart at September 01, 2008 04:31 PM (eGRG+)

93 >>>I know your rationale, Ace - I've read every post on Sully you've ever written - but I still think it's wrong.  Tu quoque is always a shitty excuse, and while Sullivan's hypocrisy - real, manifest hypocrisy, not just the sort of implied "BECAUSE OF TEH HYPOCRISY!" crap that lefties conjure to excuse disgusting attacks on GOP politicians - is undeniable, you only look weak for sinking to his level.  Because it's unnecessary!  You can call him all sorts of loopy (and perfectly appropriate) epithets without even having to go there!  It's a mere substitute for creativity in your invective, and it also just looks bad.

Yeah, I get that.  It's a close call and I'm not psyched about following him into the gutter.

Still, these are his rules.  Live by the sewer, die by the sewer.

The fact is there is much circumstantial evidence to suggest he is suffering from some sort of brain degeneration.  Just sayin'.  Usual human beings don't launch nasty smears based on "circumstantial evidence;" we're a bit more circumspect about advancing smears the more vicious and personal they are; we want a higher level of proof before making the public suggestion.

But again -- these are Sullivan's rules.  He apparenty doesn't believe in holding off on such smears absent any evidence; why should I?

And it's not 'quoque," the word is spelled "COCK."

Posted by: ace at September 01, 2008 04:33 PM (1WR4H)

94 Further, obviously I have no interest in seeing Sullivan's medical records, but this is the standard he has decided upon.  So be it.

You know, sometimes I feel sorry for him; rarely have a seen a more obviously pathetic figure, and it's hard not to pity.  Then I think about how he's attacking Bristol Palin because her mother's political viability threatens his irrational crush, and I realize the pity is misplaced.

Medical records, please, Andrew.  That should clear everything up.

Posted by: Kensington at September 01, 2008 04:33 PM (xFNQx)

95 and I think we could use a bit of those small-town values down here in the lower 48

The lower 55, you mean.  But still, point taken. 

Posted by: Scout at September 01, 2008 04:35 PM (h/4DY)

96 After making a brief foray into the fever swamps of the left, it's apparent the meme they're going to be pushing is "white trash".

They were already starting on it with the college 'joke T-shirt' photo and the complaints about hairstyle and hoop earrings.

What's the best way to counter that?


Posted by: Jim62sch at September 01, 2008 04:37 PM (ubHgw)

97 Shill, of course Sullivan's homosexuality has nothing to do with his loathesomeness.  You might note that I'm not even pushing the "milky loads" moniker, but that's mainly because there shouldn't be any confusion about which particular scumbag is being referenced:  Andrew Sullivan, unhinged cocksucker (in the asshole sense, not the gay sense) extraordinaire.

Posted by: Kensington at September 01, 2008 04:37 PM (xFNQx)

98 I think of myself as a proud member of the Religious Right. And yet, I recognize there are sometimes when social cons go overboard and I just want to smack them upside the head.  Anyone from the right who wants to preach their high-minded morality on the Palins (and the rest of us) in this circumstance can bite me.

Excellent post, Ace.

Posted by: The Black Republican at September 01, 2008 04:39 PM (bt3om)

99 What's the best way to counter that?

Give it a megaphone.

Posted by: runninrebel at September 01, 2008 04:39 PM (qAMnO)

100 Ace, exactly.  Sullivan justifies his pursuit of Trig Trutherism on the bases of what he terms satisfactory circumstantial evidence.  That this evidence is, in fact, utter crap, has not given him pause.

There's more satisfactory circumstantial evidence that Andrew Sullivan has lost his capacity for reason than there is that Sarah Palin isn't Trig Palin's mother.

Posted by: Kensington at September 01, 2008 04:39 PM (xFNQx)

101 Fair enough Eukardios. The Church doctrine is of the perpetual virginity of Mary (which is separate from the issue of sin - it obviously wouldn't have been sinful for Mary to have children with her husband), and I'm just a layperson so I can't remember if she was supposed to have remained sinless.

Of course, she was without sin when she was Assumed (another Church doctrine) -- as one cannot go directly to Heaven (do not pass Go, do not collect $200) while still being stained with sin, as that's separation from God. But that doesn't mean she had never sinned, because Jesus had died and risen before her Assumption, and she could have had any sins she committed wiped away.

Still, I am of the opinion that Mary did not sin. Sin is a separation from God, and considering her relationship with her Son, God Himself, I just don't see it happening. I can see Jesus especially protecting her from temptation. (Going for the crazy conterfactual): if you were God, wouldn't that the least you could do for your mother?

Yes, I'm a real Papist, unlike the deranged He-Who-Must-Be-Named-Milky-Loads. I'm a little sketchy on some of the details, but God does not require perfect knowledge.

Posted by: meep at September 01, 2008 04:40 PM (7uTCa)

102 Now THAT is a rant worth writing home about!

Well done, sir, I say well done.

Posted by: 'Tis I at September 01, 2008 04:41 PM (PmUjn)

103 "What's the best way to counter that?"

Based on her initial public performances with McCain, I'd say let Palin be Palin, and the meme will take care of itself.

Posted by: Kensington at September 01, 2008 04:41 PM (xFNQx)

104 Cool Sarah Palin Fact #43: Sarah Palin can cause ghey bloggers at the Atlantic to have severe, painful anal spasms... by merely pronouncing their names.

Posted by: George Orwell at September 01, 2008 04:41 PM (AZGON)

105

"What's the best way to counter that?"

Joe Biden's from Scranton, PA, and grew up in Wilmington.  What's to counter?

Posted by: notropis at September 01, 2008 04:41 PM (KWUsS)

106 To Jim62sch: what's wrong with white trash?

If they want to go down that route, that will just remind us of the bitter, gun-clinging xenophobes of Pennsylvania. If they figure they've lost that crowd already they might as well press their luck, I wish them the results they deserve.

Posted by: meep at September 01, 2008 04:43 PM (7uTCa)

107 Aw fudge, who didn't close a tag?

Posted by: meep at September 01, 2008 04:43 PM (7uTCa)

108 Dude, you are on a roll today. Awesome post.

Posted by: holygoat at September 01, 2008 04:43 PM (TlXcA)

109 The left achieves perfection by declaring that all is permissible.

They expect us to grab the pitchforks when we find out that Sarah Palin's family isn't 100% perfect by our standards.  They can't understand our nuance.

Any parent of a teenager knows what it's like when they do something they shouldn't have.  No matter how good of a parent you are, teenagers have free will.

This won't hurt Sarah Palin.  It just shows that she's somebody ordinary people can relate to.  The Palin family seems to be handling this admirably.

Posted by: sandy burger at September 01, 2008 04:44 PM (4ZjdD)

110 Aw crap, I think it was my fault. How do I close this? The leaning letters are making me dizzy.

Posted by: George Orwell at September 01, 2008 04:45 PM (AZGON)

111 This idea that Christian conservative parents should always be able to keep their kids from making mistakes or be labeled hypocrites is absurd and patently false. We can point our kids in the right direction, but if they choose to go the other way then that's their choice. An expectation that as a Christian parent you've failed somehow if your kid screws up leads to two bad things. First it gives parents who have great kids a "false" pride that they must be better parents than everyone else. In many cases these are the pretentious jerks that we are addressing here. Second it makes parents who have bad kids think they were awful parents when in many cases they did all they could to raise their kids the right way. If you need one ultimate example look at Adam and Eve. God provided them with the most perfect environment possible and they still managed to screw up.

Posted by: luke2411 at September 01, 2008 04:45 PM (zEc/0)

112 Cursing is a sin.

Posted by: Lincoln at September 01, 2008 04:46 PM (GYHOH)

113 Meh.

Posted by: George Orwell at September 01, 2008 04:46 PM (AZGON)

114 italics are off after this post

Posted by: Shill at September 01, 2008 04:46 PM (8jYMc)

115 Did that do it?

Posted by: Kensington at September 01, 2008 04:47 PM (xFNQx)

116 Tags. Tags! Mea culpa.

Posted by: George Orwell at September 01, 2008 04:48 PM (AZGON)

117 Thanks, fellas. Sorry.

Posted by: George Orwell at September 01, 2008 04:48 PM (AZGON)

118 Kensington, I guess you aren't pushing the most sick comments.

I don't mind calling Sullivan an asshole, either.   He's definitely more miserable than you or me. 

Posted by: Shill at September 01, 2008 04:49 PM (8jYMc)

119 I see good old MPete (hey you share the same initials as me) looked it up in the catechism. So it's not so sketchy. I remembered some of the doctrine, not all.

I'm saying that if there was one non-Jesus person who was without sin, Mary would have to be it. The saints who write anything about their own lives will admit to their sinfulness (and as with Augustine will sometimes give you salacious specifics.) So they're out. Mary did have the freedom to sin, I admit, and her "Fiat" was freely given, but I say in being protected from Original Sin from conception and her relationship with her son, her choices re:sin were always the correct ones. And she had her boy change water into wine for a wedding, so she wasn't some joyless scold.

Speaking of which, I need to freshen my drink.

Posted by: meep at September 01, 2008 04:49 PM (7uTCa)

120 Say, what's the best way to do a quotation in the comments?  Most people seem to put the quoted text in quotation marks and then italicize the whole thing.

Is there something more splashy available, like a "quote" feature that indents and maybe puts a border on it?

Been wondering about that...

Posted by: Kensington at September 01, 2008 04:49 PM (xFNQx)

121 Cool Sarah Palin Fact #39: When Sarah Palin wants to close a bad tag on a blog, she doesn't use html... she uses a hollowpoint .45 round.

Posted by: George Orwell at September 01, 2008 04:53 PM (AZGON)

122
This is just one more thing that makes Sarah Palin look real ... as opposed to Obama in his fake Greek temple ...

Maybe she will now grab the vote of women that remember their own teenage pregnancy, or their kid's ...

Posted by: bill at September 01, 2008 04:56 PM (l19H/)

123 Bottom line - Is Bristol Palin's mistake going to have an impact on my life, national security, the environment, taxes????

OR

Is a certain presidential candidate's nefarious relationships and utter lack of experience and proportion going to affect me?????

THAT IS THE QUESTION!!!!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at September 01, 2008 04:57 PM (np0pW)

124 Let's see. One option - the left's option - is to avoid being "punished" for a mistake and just killing the problem.

Another option - mary the father and have the child with the help of the family.

Third - Islamic option - honor killing

I think the Palins made a good choice

Posted by: Stephen Macklin at September 01, 2008 04:57 PM (R7LgM)

125

Kostards make Focus on the Family seem like totally reasonable folks.

 

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NGExMDQ5NGQ2MTZiZjA0ZjIwZGI2MTg2OWZjNWNlMzY=

 

 

 

Whoda thunkit?

Posted by: blaster at September 01, 2008 04:57 PM (KpEAZ)

126

Are we sure John Edwards isn't the father?

Posted by: Larry Jones at September 01, 2008 05:00 PM (28IHv)

127 I want Andrew Sullivan to say this load of crap about Bristol Palin right in front of her father.  If he was anything like my dad was it would be lights out Andrew.  Except my dad would have buried his ass alive for good measure.
What a pussy.

Posted by: MrsPaulsFishSticks at September 01, 2008 05:02 PM (PBGAP)

128 126
Are we sure John Edwards isn't the father?

Heh heh.

Posted by: George Orwell at September 01, 2008 05:02 PM (AZGON)

129 Anybody who has kids or has had kids or remembers the ages 13 -20, knows that teenagers screw-up. Sometimes minor, sometimes major.

Every family has had to deal with that. And if you haven't, count your blessings. You roll with the punches and try to keep everything on track and moving forward. Hopefully, with love.

If the majority of leftards or some conservatards think being a blue-nosed hatchet-head morality scold is going to undercut the Palins they have another thing coming.

I happen to like reality. And I happen to really like those who can handle the less than perfect circumstances in their lives with grace and dignity and love and self-reliance.

I'm sure I'm not alone.

Posted by: rinseandspit at September 01, 2008 05:03 PM (VFTrh)

130 Here's some interesting information I picked up at Commentary:

"Andy Sullivan’s boss is James Bennet.

The switchboard number at The Atlantic is (202) 266-6000. If you spell Bennet’s last name in the directory you’ll get his voicemail."

How about that?

Posted by: Kensington at September 01, 2008 05:04 PM (xFNQx)

131 Mary was without sin when she became pregnant with Jesus, but Jesus had brothers so she obviously did the dirty with Joseph after the whole manger scene went down.


Posted by: Kasper Hauser at September 01, 2008 05:05 PM (qcmxH)

132 I'm still not totally convinced that having sex, getting pregnant, getting married, and becoming a mother is screwing up.

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 05:05 PM (hawOV)

133

I'm still not totally convinced that having sex, getting pregnant, getting married, and becoming a mother is screwing up.

It is if the parents are Republicans. I still consider not the optimal way to do things, but hey most of historical human behavior has been sub-optimal so it's no worse than average.

Posted by: Maetenloch at September 01, 2008 05:08 PM (Ab2VX)

134 So the Palins will accept the responsibility of raising a child and loving a grandchild.

The Obamas consider it an unbearable burden.

Yep, the left wins this one, all right.

Posted by: richard mcenroe at September 01, 2008 05:09 PM (e+exz)

135 Christoph, you're right, it's not really a huge scandal when you think about it.

It could be bad, but it's none of our business if it is.  I wouldn't think getting married that young is a great idea, but again, none of my business and has as much of a chance of working wonderfully as anyone else's marriage in this society.

One thing is clear: having an abortion would have saved the Palins a great deal of trouble.  Many Religious Right folks are going to be disappointed and glum by this news, and this does put a shadow over Palin for them.  It opens Palin up to attacks that are totally unfair.  Palin decided to do what was right instead of what was easy, and her daughter the same, and that alone says a lot about how well thee kids have been brought up.  No, Sarah did not raise sinless kids, but she raised brave and strong kids.

Obama would have wanted this kid aborted.

Posted by: Shill at September 01, 2008 05:10 PM (8jYMc)

136

Maybe my phrasing was stupid, but he idea is sound.

Yeesh, if you say so.

I've never been more driven more by pure hide-your-boner lust, nor more powerfully "in love," than I was at sixteen.  I had nonstop boners and thought about nothing other than sex.

I would assume, however, you didn't father anyone at the time.  I would further assume that you might have should the opportunity have presented itself.  More on that in a sec...

The only thing I thought more about than sex was how amazingly incredibly in love I was with this month's crush-girl and how I wanted to marry her and raise rabbits.

Well, at least it's not Harlequin this time.

How about you guys?

It's completely different for a girl.  And I just couldn't be happier about being one after reading stuff like this.

Posted by: Barbelle at September 01, 2008 05:10 PM (qF8q3)

137 richard mcenroe, while I consider Obama's support of abortion, partial-birth abortion, and infanticide following a botched abortion reprehensible, in fairness, I don't believe there's any evidence that he's said Bristol's child represents an unbearable burden.

On the contrary, he issued a strong and classy statement denouncing his supporter-nutbars.

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 05:11 PM (hawOV)

138 By the way, I left a voicemail for James Bennet, and ensured my tone was calm and respectful, if severely disappointed in The Atlantic.

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 05:12 PM (hawOV)

139 Christoph, you're right that Obama's denouncement was a good one, and pointed out that Obama's mom was a single teenager too.

For all we know, this fetus could grow up to be president.

But Obama did specifically note that if his daughter had an early pregnancy he would not want the child born, didn't he.  I'm not trying to call Obama a monster, but this is a legitimate policy difference.

Posted by: Shill at September 01, 2008 05:14 PM (8jYMc)

140 Shill, I respect your opinion and for reasons given above, I think getting married that young is a great idea... for many people.

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 05:14 PM (hawOV)

141 "I'm not trying to call Obama a monster, but this is a legitimate policy difference."

I certainly agree, shrill, and I've come closer to calling Obama a monster than you have, and the reasons are his support of abortion, partial-birth abortion, and infanticide following a botched abortion. I find these positions monstrous. I oppose him receiving the power to advance these horrors.

I'm merely pointing out there's no evidence he considers abortion mandatory in the case of teenage motherhood.

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 05:18 PM (hawOV)

142 I've been in touch with Sarah's relatives today, and they are elated to welcome Bristol's soon-to-be-husband and child into the family! 

Posted by: 8starsnorth at September 01, 2008 05:20 PM (wLqv4)

143 Until a few days ago, I thought I was of only average intelligence.  Damn.  Bow down before me bitches, cuz I am topping out here.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at September 01, 2008 05:23 PM (mKyxR)

144 Mary was without sin when she became pregnant with Jesus, but Jesus had brothers so she obviously did the dirty with Joseph after the whole manger scene went down.

We Catholics don't believe Jesus had any siblings, and that what you're reading in that is a mistranslation.  We believe Mary was 'ever Virgin' and she and Joseph... well, I won't go where you've gone.

You are free to disagree, of course, but then we're getting seriously OT.

Posted by: The Black Republican at September 01, 2008 05:27 PM (0guas)

145 Ace, your right about young men at that 13 to 18 age bracket.  In high school it was like walking the boner gauntlet down the hallway. 

Posted by: MrsPaulsFishSticks at September 01, 2008 05:29 PM (PBGAP)

146 Yeah, Catholic teaching about the dirtiness of sex is just bizarre, the very idea a married woman having sex with her husband producing children could be a sin.

Back on topic, people!

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 05:29 PM (hawOV)

147

Hauser, intimacy as husband and wife isn't sin. In a Jewish marital context, it's a sin not to - it's a violation of the laws of Noah ("be fruitful and multiply") which supercede even the Ten Commandments. If the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity is true than it is proof that Mary did indeed sin. Because, absent a commandment from God to maintain celibacy after Jesus's birth, it was Mary's (and Joseph's) duty to bring more of God's people into the world if they possibly could.

Posted by: David Ross at September 01, 2008 05:31 PM (ThkMv)

148

If Andrew Sullivan can demand the baby's birth certificate, then I demand that John Edwards take a paternity test to confirm he's not the father.

Posted by: Larry Jones at September 01, 2008 05:32 PM (28IHv)

149 "Hauser, intimacy as husband and wife isn't sin. In a Jewish marital context, it's a sin not to - it's a violation of the laws of Noah ("be fruitful and multiply") which supercede even the Ten Commandments. If the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity is true than it is proof that Mary did indeed sin. Because, absent a commandment from God to maintain celibacy after Jesus's birth, it was Mary's (and Joseph's) duty to bring more of God's people into the world if they possibly could."

Plus, fucking is fun.

Posted by: Christoph at September 01, 2008 05:36 PM (hawOV)

150 "[W]hat harm would it do to release the medical records showing that Sarah Palin delivered Trig on April 18 in Wasilla?" You mean, besides it being none of your business?

Where are Sullivan's medical records to be found online? I note there are some accusations floating around regarding dementia.

Posted by: tasteslikechicken at September 01, 2008 05:39 PM (PWPsi)

151

Being a pro-choice feminist, I had my fair share of dust-ups at FR when I used to post there, but to be fair, the comments I've read today are overwhelmingly of the 'we all make mistakes' variety. As for the taliban-lite types, I'm convinced that they'd never vote for a ticket with a woman on it anyway, so who gives a damn if they're getting their sanctimony on.

Posted by: TiredWench at September 01, 2008 05:42 PM (Kx1hM)

152 God bless you, Ace.  Totally serious.

Posted by: baldilocks at September 01, 2008 05:45 PM (e3cTa)

153 I hear that "the only true conservative," Sullivan, routinely engages in bestiality. What harm would it do to release the medical records disproving that Sullivan boinked the neighborhood pets or used his squeakhole as a hidey-hole for furry friends for the past decade? This is not hard: there must be a veterinarian, animal control officer, medical records, and data that can easily refute this rumor. It is not out of the ordinary either: candidates routinely issue medical records. So let's have them. And then we can move on.


Lovely Sullivan. Exercising that infamous tactic and reliable political standby, perfected by conservative Lyndon B. Johnson, of just wanting to hear an opponent deny the smear regardless of the fact that something is a damnable lie.

Well played, supposed gerbil buggerer. Well played, indeed.

Yes, this is an offensive post, but what can you do? People are talking. Rumors are mongering. We need to get to the bottom of this.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at September 01, 2008 05:47 PM (sI5Ho)

154

"143 Until a few days ago, I thought I was of only average intelligence.  Damn.  Bow down before me bitches, cuz I am topping out here."

 

OK, dazzle me.

Posted by: Javems at September 01, 2008 05:49 PM (tgdyh)

155 After making a brief foray into the fever swamps of the left, it's apparent the meme they're going to be pushing is "white trash".

They were already starting on it with the college 'joke T-shirt' photo and the complaints about hairstyle and hoop earrings.

What's the best way to counter that?

Posted by: Jim62sch at September 01, 2008 04:37 PM (ubHgw)

Cheer them on.  Collect $1 from each moron to make a donation encouraging them to pursue this strategy.

And watch McCain/Palin win PA, OH, IN, TX and run damn close in MN, in addition to taking KY, TN, WV, maybe VA, and every state in the South.

Posted by: funky chicken at September 01, 2008 05:51 PM (xyyHG)

156 Is Sullivan a citizen yet? Isn't knowingly spreading the AIDS virus a crime? Shouldnt Immigration be made aware that Sullivan is knowingly spreading the AIDS virus to American citizens? And soliciting for it online? Before they make him a citizen or even renew his visa?

Posted by: Protect America at September 01, 2008 06:10 PM (xX9c1)

157 Oh for fuck's sake (literally).

The Perpetual Virginity of Mary has nothing to do with sin. I am not a theologian, so I can't really get into it, but I know the sinlessness of Mary and her virginity are not the same issue.

For crying out loud, Catholics love sex. That's why we have so many kids. Or had, rather. My grandparents didn't have 6 kids in 8 years (I think there may have been a miscarriage in there somewhere) because they thought sex was dirty. The Church is against extramarital sex, and sex that is divorced from its complete experience.

Married sex is great. I will leave it at that. The Virgin Mary is another issue. I know the Protestants don't agree on that, but that's not the least disagreement we have. The disagreements with respect to Mary are minor compared to more important issues.

Now let's get back to our regular moronic droolings. I feel like we should be taking this over to First Things.

Posted by: meep at September 01, 2008 06:30 PM (7uTCa)

158 I meant, that's not the largest disagreement we have.

Anyway, yes, doctrinal disputes really have no place at AoS. Sorry to have started this.

Posted by: meep at September 01, 2008 06:32 PM (7uTCa)

159 Also, this Catholic is fine with the Catholic horror pics. I don't watch them, as I dislike the genre, but there is indeed a lot of gothic elements in the Church. Reading the lives (and deaths) of the saints can make for some fun movie pitches.

Saint Lucy! Eyeballs on a platter! Box office boffo!

Posted by: meep at September 01, 2008 06:34 PM (7uTCa)

160 I want Andrew Sullivan to say this load of crap about Bristol Palin right in front of her father.  If he was anything like my dad was it would be lights out Andrew.  Except my dad would have buried his ass alive for good measure.

#127, I was thinking this exact same thing.  As the father of several daughters (and sons) I do believe I would attempt to arrange a private sit-down with Sullivan.

Posted by: DCox at September 01, 2008 06:34 PM (2pT9a)

161 I love these folks.  The Palins seem to be congenitally incapable of ever doing anything the easy way.   I'm sorry, but she's good and they all look like a lot of fun and I really want to see video of the Secret Service going balls-to-the-wall on snowmobiles someday.

Have the kid.  Love the kid.  Raise the kid to be the effin' President someday.  Hopefully he or she won't be the first one in the family to get to that office.

Posted by: JEM at September 01, 2008 06:38 PM (G8Eo0)

162 MP @ 83:

I'll accept that correction. I am not Catholic myself--though I did study religion at a Catholic University--so I'm probably not as clear on the current teachings of the Church as someone who was brought up in it. That being said, both Origen (a somewhat dubious source) and Basil (a much better one) believed that Mary had committed the sin of doubt, and John Chrysostom charged her with ambition.

While I understand why the historical doctrine developed as it did, the doctrine itself has always rather perplexed me. I mean, if God is capable of preventing original sin from attaching to Mary in the womb, why couldn't he have simply done the same for Jesus? Why was a sinless mother necessary?

Anyway, this is getting desperately off topic, so I'll leave it at that.

Posted by: Eukardios at September 01, 2008 07:08 PM (96qG1)

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Posted by: Charles at September 01, 2008 07:09 PM (XST8H)

164 As the author of the line taken out of context above ("Given Sarah’s own eloping with Todd timing, it may be that she in fact passed down the same values."), I would like to request that you reread the entire post (and the follow up posts).

1) Note the conditional "it may". I happen to have a young daughter. I also smoked marijuana and inhaled in my younger and wilder days. Rather than lie to my daughter about it (when the time comes) I will explain why it's not a good idea. But kids, especially teenagers, find that actions speak louder than words. If she DOES end up smoking a bit of marijuana as I did, I will take the responsibility for having giving her the idea that since it was once OK for me, it's now OK for her.

2) I couldn't care less whether Sarah and Todd eloped and when. The point is that their daughter is keeping the baby (rather than looking at it as a "punishment") and marrying the father. Given the state of today's culture, that is somthing to celebrated.

Posted by: PhilosopherStones at September 01, 2008 07:19 PM (3L913)

165 Ace, I sent this comment to the times based on their up-to-the-minute front page coverage. Their censor refused to publish in the comments section... big surprise.

I'm sure this never happens in leftist circles where you folks reside. You guys have the best contraception, abortions and go-away-and-have-a-baby farms. The simple fact is that the old grey whore would never publish this on the front page (if at all) for people or politicians that they and you like. It's a family dilemma to say the least but should not be grist for the mill that you enjoy so much. Way to go Pinch, you'll be out of business soon.
— g-bomb, connecticut

Posted by: gc at September 01, 2008 07:28 PM (8el+/)

166

17, unmarried, pregnant= not good.

Jeez.

Posted by: Russell Ziskey at September 01, 2008 07:30 PM (LlaBi)

167 Good post ace.

IMHO we need a real priest with a sense of humor to comment here.

 I'm a wasp southern redneck so if this idea offends practising catholics I apologise in advance.

Unless you're a humorless scold like some of the baptists I know. In that case, you can put it where the sun don't shine.

Posted by: aubrey at September 01, 2008 07:39 PM (q/Z0+)

168 Ziskey, you say not good, I say not ideal.

And I imagine your upbringing wasn't flawless either.  Nor was mine or anyone's.

This is not a matter worth the level of hatred it generated on the left.  Obama took FOREVER to condemn the attacks (though he did, and he did well).  That's important.

And what is the alternative?  Abortion?  You know this child is being born into an upper middle class family and will have many advantages, so even adoption is not as good as what h/she is getting.  This family is sticking together in tough times.  I say that makes them better than a lot of families I know, no matter what age the mom is.  This child could grow up to be a genius, or even president.

but you're right, no mom wants their 17 year old daughter to face such hard consquences.  I don't think anyone here disagrees with you.

jeez

Posted by: Shill at September 01, 2008 07:46 PM (8jYMc)

169 And a baby being brought into this world is "good".  No matter what the difficulty.  This is a human soul, that has a great deal of potential and promise.  That is a great thing, and a blessing.

Posted by: Shill at September 01, 2008 07:47 PM (8jYMc)

170 Just maybe those "hicks" in Alaska can teach their more learned intellectual cousins in the lower 48 something about "sometimes there are things that really are not your $#^@ business".

Last I checked, the 17 year old wasn't running for public office.

Funny how the MSM is playing this. The same MSM that refrained from mentioning anything about John Edwards.......remember him? The guy running for president...and later mentioned as a possible contender for the Obama VP slot.

Posted by: GarandFan at September 01, 2008 07:55 PM (eJ32B)

171 My first encounter with a Meetup.com group was for political conservatives. At the first meeting, a couple of the guys made it clear that they felt there were no valid conservative views without belief in Jesus Christ as your Savior.

I didn't come back. I have absolutely no use for that sort of opinion.

17, unmarried, pregnant = not good. Yes. But I'd say it's better than 17, unmarried, first abortion. Particularly if you've got a supportive family.

I'd be careful if I were the left slamming on young mothers and their parents. Word gets out to the Latino and Black community that you think that's grounds for public scorn, you just might lose a LOT more support.

I'd also be very careful if i were Team Obama. Those two little girls have got a lot of road to travel before they reach 18. And with two moms, they're probably going to be itching for a strong male figure in their lives.

Posted by: amos at September 01, 2008 07:56 PM (gYsFF)

172 92 aww jeez, you guys were doing so well there for a minute.

now your innate pussiness is re-emerging

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Posted by: cranky at September 01, 2008 08:12 PM (rwGZV)

173 PhilosopherStones,

I have added a correction/clarification to the post to acknowledge that.  Sorry for the misreading.

Posted by: ace at September 01, 2008 08:21 PM (1WR4H)

174

Wow. Take a couple of days away and walk back into a quagmire.

The funny thing about all of this is the inhinged left having the vapors about a teen pregnancy from a conservative family. Do they think that we don't fuck? I am truly aghast at their thought process. We want them to fuck their goats in the privacy of their own bedroom, instead of in the town square. They assume we want to regulate their private life, yet they are the first to jump at regulating the rights of Americans.

Dumb ass suckers of cock. 1+1=2. Conservatives are cleaner, thus better smelling, and typically better lloking than the granola goat fucking crowd. Why would they not think we get it more?

 

For the love of everythinig holy, can they get a grip on theselves?

 

Nope.

Posted by: Humanitarian2112 at September 01, 2008 08:28 PM (qM/ym)

175 The CNN host is just pushing the issue .. you can't deny it will be bad for the daughter to put her through this, she will be under scrutiny ...

Yeah, it would be so terrible to be the daughter of the vice president ... what abuse.

Shouldn't CNN hostess say how great it is that this teenager has it made, how her Mom will be able to do anything for her? 

Posted by: bill at September 01, 2008 08:34 PM (l19H/)

176   I have a master's degree in divinity and thirty-plus years in the parish ministry,  In my opinion this post is an excellent statement of classical Christian doctrine.

Posted by: Brize at September 01, 2008 08:43 PM (0aNm+)

177 Oh, and just a year ago I learned I have another cousin ... an aunt that had one as a teenager .... big secret in the 1940's ... the more those nutty Dem's attack this, the better for McCain Palin.  This is probably familiar to most families.

Posted by: bill at September 01, 2008 08:51 PM (l19H/)

178 So, bill, basically what CNN is saying is that Palin shouldn't be elected because the attacks that CNN is planning to carry out on her children wouldn't be fair to them?

Frankly, not giving much of a damn about the "concerns" of the "Saddam Station."

Posted by: Merovign at September 01, 2008 09:04 PM (UXoQt)

179 Just when I thought BHO had managed to stop shooting himself in the feet (by not totally embarrassing himself at his coronation ceremony acceptance speech), along comes his putative friends in the MSM and Democratic Party to grab the gun and blast off a few more toes.

That said, if I'm Hillary Clinton I have to be going fucking monkeyshit crazy by now over McCain's choice of running mate. After going millions of dollars into the hole to run for president only to be upstaged by some junior senator from flyoverland, she finally agreed to "take one for the team" and gear up for another run in 2012 if BHO loses, but now even if that happens, Hillary's Rightful Place In American HistoryTM will be put in jeopardy yet again, this time by some backwater-state governor with a knocked-up teenage daughter.

Posted by: Joshua at September 01, 2008 10:13 PM (MpX/t)

180 This is a human soul, that has a great deal of potential and promise.  That is a great thing, and a blessing.

Absolutely! To the left, however, babies are only blessings if they are wanted by the mother, arrive with flawless timing and are physically and mentally perfect. If the baby doesn't meet those conditions, mom is completely within her rights to consider it subhuman and have it scraped or sucked from her womb. What a lovely, humane bunch.

Posted by: Tina at September 01, 2008 10:40 PM (lFbsc)

181 "After making a brief foray into the fever swamps of the left, it's apparent the meme they're going to be pushing is "white trash".
They were already starting on it with the college 'joke T-shirt' photo and the complaints about hairstyle and hoop earrings.
What's the best way to counter that?"

By electing her as Vice President, of course!

Posted by: cargosquid at September 01, 2008 11:32 PM (pY7eU)

182

As a campaign "issue" the preggers 17 year old will impact negativly on Palin. Period.  It is not a deal killer, but it does reflect in a negative way. How could it not?  

 

Posted by: Smug at September 02, 2008 12:39 AM (baPuN)

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You've really been in the zone lately Ace .Great post.

 You'd mak a most excellent catholic.

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Posted by: replica watches at February 06, 2010 12:17 PM (KbTNE)

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Posted by: replica watches at February 07, 2010 02:23 PM (Nyedu)

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Posted by: replica watches at February 07, 2010 11:15 PM (TUJDt)






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