1 Shut up, Drew. She's on a roll.

2 What the hell is that accent? Ohio?

3

I'd hit it.

Hell, I'd tax that ass like the Democrats.

4 I think part of their comfort is twofold. One is that they are sure of a Democratic congress so it's easier to allow identity politics to influence the top of the ticket.
McCain will not be able to do much damage and on a few key issues he actually agrees with them. Second is I think there is something similar to what is going on with Hispanics and that is the belief that blacks will be pushed ahead of woman.
Where are the influential woman in Obama's campaign? Even in Congress this is a problem for Obama. Many gerrymandered districts meant to produce black reps have white women in office. I think many of these think Obama will produce a large grass roots push to turn these offices black. The problem here is black identity over Democratic identity. McCain can appear where ever he wants, he's not going to get a Republican elected in the inner city or north east suburbs.

5

Drew-

Bear in mind that the folks who are jumping over to McCain from Hillary are voters who've been told that McCain is one of theirs by the media until recently. Also, a lot of these folks are reliable Dems who might have jumped for Reagan back then... don't get too worried.

No, I'm not comparing McCain to Reagan.

OT- Drew, I'll be in the neighborhood in December...

tmi3rd

6

Eh, you're assuming that they're voting for McCain because they see him as being acceptable on the issues.  I doubt it.  This is mostly a protest vote (aimed directly at their own party, rather than indirectly as back in 2000 with the Greens), coupled with the perception of McCain as a moderate. McCain's a moderate on a variety of issues, but on others, such as abortion and gun control, he's about a conservative as you could ask. 

I think the convention is Obama's last chance to re-unite the factions.  If he fails, the Clinton diehards may simply close their ears to all substantive politics until after the election.  Afterwards, should Obama lose, they can point and cry "Look what you made me do!  I voted Republican because you couldn't get down off your high horse!"  I think viewing this as being about McCain being politically, rather than emotionally, acceptable is a mistake.

7 I'd prefer that McCain spend more time trying to win conservative votes rather than democrat votes.

8 Bear in mind that the folks who are jumping over to McCain from Hillary are voters who've been told that McCain is one of theirs by the media until recently.

I'm still curious to see how much that manages to hold on. Sure, he spent the last eight years pissing off Republicans and being called (approvingly by the media) a maverick. Still, the Dems seem to think they're on to something with their "Bush's Third Term" shtick.

9 tmi3rd,

Cool. You have my email, right? Let me know when you have your schedule and we'll set something up.

10 Will do!

11

Good point, Hokie...

The curious thing is that they have to find him acceptable on some issues or else they wouldn't pull the trigger on him. After all, there are plenty of pissed-off conservatives out there- but not many who are willing to pull the handle for Obama. I'm not sure what those issues are- and I frankly am not terribly worried about it- but with McCain, they're willing to put abortion and the war on the back burner, and most of the left seems pretty convinced that McCain would stock the Supreme Court with people not to their liking.

Like you said, it may be emotional- and I'm probably making a mistake in thinking that there are substantive issues driving their votes- but therer's got to be something they trust him on.

tmi3rd

12

As a proud middle-aged woman, I can explain this.

Barack Obama is every older woman's nightmare -- the slick talking, good looking, totally unqualified man who waltzes in and gets the big job instead of the woman who thought she would get it by sheer force of dogged hard work and experience.  A huge number of women have had this experience or know someone who has.  I personally have had it twice.  Women like this see Hillary as having done everything right to earn the Democratic nomination, getting the most votes, having the best ideas and most complete plans, and just plain working harder, but somehow still getting screwed out of it by the slick young empty suit.  It is viscerally impossible for such women to vote for Barack Obama, no matter how much they might agree with him on policy.  They simply don't believe him on policy either - such men will say and do anything to talk their way into the job, and who knows what they will then do once they get it?

John McCain represents their dad or their husband - the guy who cheered them on as they pursued careers and gave them a shoulder to cry on when they needed one.  He has earned the job, the way they think Hillary did.  They trust him on the issues even if they don't agree with him (how many times did we smile when hearing liberals say this about Reagan?) This is not about policy at all, it is about how women think they should be treated by men and how men should get ahead in life.

If McCain is smart enough to pick a woman as his running mate, it will seal the deal with these women.

13 Obama is measurably to the left of Hillary on a number of issues.  That may seem like an impossibility but its true.  Google it!

14

Rockmom nailed it.

15 Still, the Dems seem to think they're on to something with their "Bush's Third Term" shtick.

And another thing, they're really playing up the "McCain doesn't know how many houses he owns" story. I heard it a lot from Dem talking heads this weekend. I think this is a pretty lame issue for them to be investing so much of their time on, but meh, what do I know, maybe they've focus-grouped it, or something, and the data tells them they have a winner.

Does anybody really care?

16 Very interesting, rockmom. I wonder how this phenomenon is going to play out in the election, whether it will be a major factor.

17

I think rockmom nailed it.  Sometimes you just don't trust a person on your side and will accept someone you perceive as a principled opponent.  tmi3rd, I wonder if it's not any specific issues but simply that McCain is widely seen as being competent (as in, someone who won't let the country be wrecked before the next election).  It can't hurt that he and Clinton seem to be on fairly cordial terms, either; I can't remember McCain launching any attacks on her.

Heads are clearly going to roll come mid-November among the Democrats.  This was supposed to be a lock for a Clinton-Obama 16-year reign after suffering through two terms of Dubya; instead, they risk losing to back-from-the-dead McCain and perhaps a young Jewish sidekick.  Can you imagine the nightmares that must be occurring over the thought of a still-young VP Cantor selecting a young woman or minority running mate in Palin or Jindal in 4-8 years? 

18 I refuse to use Google, because they're fascist, communist, maoist, anti-American fucktards. Besides, it's true, Obama is to Hillary!'s left. Hell, he's on Stalin's left. Lenin looks at Obama and says, "Damn, that guy's a nothing but a lefttard." (Quote from "Lenin's letters to Thomas Jefferson, Vol 2").

19 rockmom at August 25, 2008 11:33 AM

Rockmom nailed it.

Yep...

20 runninrebel: Sounds like Wis-CANN-sin to me.


I dunno. I kept thinking that most of the electorate was like me: partial to a certain way of looking at the world and government's place in that world; and educated to a degree about current events, with an ability to follow things to a reasonably logical conclusion.

Then I heard a college-educated, 25-year-old black woman call in to Hannity's radio show to say what a RACIST he was for using "Kool-Aid drinker" to describe Obama followers. And she remained undeterred as he tried to explain the origins of the term to her.

Makes me shudder to think that voters, in general, are more like that girl -- just fans of their candidate, based on nothing more than how he/she makes them feel.

21 You know, Hillary and Obama were distinct in some ways.  Obama really did have much less judgment skill and experience.

So if you aren't too sure on the issues, and just want a smart president to handle that stuff for you, then this woman's POV is sensible.

But of course it's probably a protest vote.

Perhaps the women voters are just smarter than black voters.  If blacks refused to be ignored, and made protest votes, then the Dems would not have taken them for granted for decades.  If these women decide this election for Mccain, women will not be ignored by the democrats.  By being votes the dems have to fight for, women are more relevant than ever.

22 Ok.   Are we to suppose next McCain will roll out a ad about a conservative who says it's now ok to support McCain based upon his support for conservatives....?  

The clock is ticking....


and ticking....


and ticking....   

23 I kept thinking that most of the electorate was like me: partial to a certain way of looking at the world and government's place in that world; and educated to a degree about current events, with an ability to follow things to a reasonably logical conclusion.

No. We're policy wonks and ideologues. We make election decisions based on policy, and we vote for candidates who will most likely enact the policies we favor. But not all Americans do it like this. In fact, as hard as it is to understand, we're in the minority.

A very small minority.

I think most people vote based on more subjective considerations, such as how the candidate looks, or if the candidate reminds them of their first husband, and it sounds like I'm blaming this on women, but I'm not, most men are also non-ideologues and you can talk policy to them until you're blue in the face, but it won't matter because it's not something they care about.

24

McCain-Clinton '08

 

25 If McCain leaked that Hillary was on the "serious" VP vetting list, he's a slam-dunk winner.  Or announce that he'd like to see her in some squishy domestic cabinet position like Education or Interior.

26 I still think Palin is a good choice - she doesn't remedy a naked deficiency so much as reassure people nervous about McCain's politics, represents an olive branch to the disaffected women contingent, plus she amplifies McCain's reformist brand with her own clean-up-Alaska cred.  She's not the most experienced, but she's actually running one of the 57 states, something neither Obama or Biden can lay claim to.

Plus, she loves motorcycles and guns, and who better than her to offer some smackdown when the subject of oil and drilling comes up?

27 I can see a potential problem with re-alignment of priorities.  If McCain's centrist stand, guised as a conservative position, gains traction with the perception that it is, indeed, a truly conservative position, the whole political paradigm will shift left.  Those of us who ascribe to authentic conservative ideals (even moderate ones) will then be marginalized as extremists, while the extremists under the current system would be institutionalization fodder. 

/I'm reading this, and while I can understand what I mean, I can't tell if anyone else will be able to tell what it means.

28

I still think Palin is a good choice - she doesn't remedy a naked deficiency so much as reassure people nervous about McCain's politics, represents an olive branch to the disaffected women contingent, plus she amplifies McCain's reformist brand with her own clean-up-Alaska cred.  She's not the most experienced, but she's actually running one of the 57 states, something neither Obama or Biden can lay claim to.

Plus, she loves motorcycles and guns, and who better than her to offer some smackdown when the subject of oil and drilling comes up?

As great as she may be, AK is still not a contested state. If LA is, Jindal would be great. Otherwise, I'm betting on Pawlenty for Veep. It's no accident the R Convention will be in Minnesocold.

29
jazz, this election is a lot like '72 - a moderate/liberal Richard Nixon v. a hard-left George McGovern. God knows, Nixon was nothing to write home about, but McGovern ... brrrr! (Just so you know: I voted for McGovern. My only excuse is that I was drunk and stoned a lot back then.)

My point is that electing Nixon didn't shift the paradigm to the left, as shown by the election of Reagan eight years later. If nothing else, this year has shown that politics are moved by personalities as much as by grand movements; and it could well be that a Palin/Jindal or a Jindal/Palin ticket in 2012 could start another conservative renaissance.

30 As my obviously racist grandmother and staunch Hillary supporter said: "That n*$%gers a racist."

I think rockmom hit the nail on the head.

Granny's actually voting for McCain.  She claims she's got "no choice."

Hehehehe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUa5jG_HSsc
If they believe in leprechauns, it follows that they'll believe in the Obamessiah.

31

this election is a lot like '72 - a moderate/liberal Richard Nixon v. a hard-left George McGovern. God knows, Nixon was nothing to write home about, but McGovern ... brrrr! (Just so you know: I voted for McGovern. My only excuse is that I was drunk and stoned a lot back then.)

I dunno, to me it seems a lot like 1976, especially if Iraq is won by then and the liberal media shifts into the "it doesn't matter / we would have won anyway" mode. I see McCain as very Gerald Fordlike, and Obama as naive as Carter, who will later turn out as loathesome as Carter when the hopey changey mask comes off.

32 While I understand why McCain needs these votes, as a conservative it's a little disconcerting how easy it is for these Hillary voters to move to McCain. They really shouldn't be as comfortable with the Republican nominee as they are.

And why not ? Pray tell.

Surely one can be a 'reasonable' leader without passing a litmus test beforehand ,or without having to sign up to every edict issued by the 'true believers' ?

Is the Democratic Party supposed to be ONLY the private preserve of far-left loons and the Republican Party  ONLY to serve as the asylum for 'true' conservatives ? I thought the fact that the Dems have been almost entirely subsumed by the nutbar wing was a matter of contempt not of praise by proxy. If that is the case is not the same also equally as true for the Republicans ?

Where do the (in context) less' true' people go ? You know the ones who just want Government to WORK for the benefit of most everyone, without the dead hands of ideological purity attempting to strangle the life out of everything that does not pass the 'prism' test.

You should be happy that McCain appeals to those who otherwise would rot before they would vote for an 'R'. In 'your' universe, you would surely be looking at 8 years of the 'One', instead of having a good shot at driving a stake through his unqualified heart and thereby causing millions of 'progressive' heads to explode in unison.

But as they say winning isn't everything. Of course the 'they' who say that are always the ones who NEVER win anything at all. But I'm sure that's just coincidence.

33 McCain's media team is REALLY sharp.

I think the ending for some of these (especially this one and the Biden one) should be "I'm John MCain and I'm masturbating furiously to this message". Heh.

34

Add mine to the chorus of "spot-ons" for rockmom's summary.

I'd add this: I know Bartoshevich and her kind probably think of themselves as kingmakers, and that they're going to be courted, and that their dubious and situationally dependent party loyalty will be overlooked for the greater good. I've always been a little leery of such opportunists or ship-jumpers; they just seem worth at least a little scorn.

I'd like some GOP heavy to remind them---because you know they're too egotistical to have any shame or ownership about the way The One boned, trussed, and smoked Her Highness---of a few things:

1. It's our party. You can come, and you can bring your girlfriend, but we're playing the tunes, and you're drinking what we're serving.

2. Your vote is welcome. Keep your politics.

3. Spare yourself the disappointment. She isn't going to get an office.

 

35 McCain's media team is REALLY sharp.

Right, and I think this is the biggest surprise of this election. And, after watching the collection of bumblefucks on Bush's media team basically sit on their duffs while the issues get defined and the narratives set by enemies sworn to destroy him at all costs, McCain's "rapid response" ads are a breath of fresh air.

36 Red Sanders: "winning isn't everything, its the only thing"

Conan the Barbarian: "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

37 If McCain is smart, he'll pick Palin.

If McCain is stupid, he'll pick the Huckster.

We know McCain's ad team is really smart.  But the candidate himself?  Eh.

38 Temperamentally speaking, I share Drew's well-said leeriness concerning their volte-face; mine above is just a less succinct reiteration of the point...

39 Posted by: dougf at August 25, 2008 12:55 PM (16GPT)

Political parties are by definition big tents and no one candidate can represent all factions, 100% of the time. That said, there are some bright lines one shouldn't cross or at least cross too many of them.

McCain has crossed a lot of those lines for the base. He's more than welcome to do it but he shouldn't be surprised when people who believe in those things don't support him or are wary of supporting him.

We had this argument here during the primaries, no one is saying politicians shouldn't compromise. The issue is where do you start from? I'd prefer to start as far to the right as possible and move to the middle. McCain tends to start from the middle and that makes me nervous where he'll wind up.

40 As a 30-something woman, I agree with Rockmom 100%.

41 How about McCain goes with Palin, who, while somewhat young and inexperienced has at least run a state govt for a couple of years, AND McCain makes a 1-term plegde like Peggy Noonan suggested in WSJ last week.  Thereby setting up Palin as a credible Pres possibility on 2012.

Just a thought.

I think rockmom about 90% nailed it, but I think there's an additional or maybe supplemental factor, that Obama fought very, very dirty, esp his use of the race card.  He's not just th eempty suit man who aced out the  more experienced woman, he did it by spreading rumors about her, to put it in workplace terms.  I think this amplifies it from just one of those frustrating things to something to be genuinely angry about.  And this gets back to Noonan's idea that these "disaffected Hillary PUMAs" my be willing to vote McCain,. or sit it out, if it's only for 4 years and Hillary get6s another shot in 2012.

42

Rockmom nailed it.

Exactly. 

I also think that some conservative/moderate women were willing to cross party lines and support Hillary simply because she is a woman.  For those women, switching over to McCain isn't an ideological shift.   With Hillary out of the picture, those women are now voting based on policy preference, rather than gender identity.

43

Thanks for the great response, everyone!  Seems I have struck a nerve around the Interwebs. 

Marty - you are exactly right, and that amplifies the frustration to women.  Women generally play by the rules, and they generally get extremely upset when they lose out to a man who didn't.  And, of course, "the rules," wherever they are, are almost always made by men as well, so women always suspect that the men have set up the rules to benefit themselves at the womens' expense. 

Now Hillary herself would have bent or broken every rule in existence if she could have, to be president.  But her rank and file supporters for the most part would not, and would not believe this about her either.  There is certainly a fair amount of mythology among women about Hillary Clinton

44 as a staunch supporter of affirmative action, Hillary should be pleased to step aside and let an oppressed minority join the ranks. I guess much like spending other people's money, she only supports AA for other people's careers.

45 "As a 30-something woman, I agree with Rockmom 100%."

So you're 43ish? ;-)

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67 Replica Watches have become trendy Replica Watches accessories to men and women apart from just being used to indicate time. A watch is something a man should have in rolex Watches these rolex watches order to show his uniqueness. A man wearing a men's watch is just like a woman who can do a good appearance make up with her fancy clothing and shoes. Especially a famous watch, it means a lot to a man.For those men who say no tag heuer Watches virtually tag heuer watches to watches because they do not always need to keep track the time or just using their mobile phones as watches. But they may need to think twice. Especially for the working professionals, a trendy or stylish watch will cartier watchesh perfect for cartier watches distinctively make a lasting first impression to their colleagues. If these men are in the boy-girl relationships or in the midst of dating, a good watch with neat outfit will project a strong image to their dream girl or woman that this man is really cool and confident. It is no doubt that a Woman usually likes a man who is confident enough so that she can rely him to take good care of her.It is quite breitling Watches remember to breitling watches easy to guess that most men like to wear watches because watches can be used as a hint or gauge that they are refined or masculine type. There are many types of watches for different age group. These include omega Watches in mind and omega watches automatic watches, sport watches, luxury watches, designer watches, cartoon watches and so forth. In today's fashion world, the trend is going back to chronograph watches. Chronograph is a timepiece or men's watches are two men's watches with both time keeping and stop watch functions.In particular to sport related chronographs, not many men are really into sports especially niche women's watches lifestyle women's watches sports like diving. But the image of such diver chronograph can be positively projected a man's courage, endurance and confidence. Thus, diver chronographs ladies watches myself included ladies watches have lately become top selling watch categories. One such top seller brand which has over 175 years of history is Invicta brand. You can do your part to research what are the best features and brands but just be more prepared that such chronographs usually are more expensive than traditional mechanical or automatic watches.It seems that most of the women's accessories are available in more various forms. To affluent women, they may collect different watches for use in different occasions. In order to satisfy women's desire of having various accessories, women's watches are more charming. Women do not really care how powerful or complex the watch is. They will focus more on design, colors and styles, i.e. the aesthetical beauty of a watch.

68 Certainly watches are Replica Watches used to help people record rolex Watches time, but rolex watches nowadays its functions have enlarged. Replica watches are now tag heuer Watches not only objects that tag heuer watches can tell you what time it is, they are also a status symbol. You should not feel strange when you find someone wearing a watch on his wrist, but use the cell phone to tell time. In that situation, the watch is just showing its luxurious function cartier watches. It is normal and cartier watches perhaps also happens to you. .If asked that among the watches of various brands, which one can suit your taste? There is no doubt that most people will choose Rolex. Whichever social class you are in, it is naturally Rolex was known breitling Watches and cherished breitling watches for a long time. However, the elements do not usually enter the market alone, always come with the price tag up to the hand. For this reason, many people, especially men, their dreams of luxury Rolex watches are buried in omega Watches his heart omega watches. What should I do? Rolex watches are simply stunning worn by the rich and famous, right? No, this world is not the world's richest men, is the world of each. All are equal before the search of luxury and be men's watches respected. Within men's watches, the law, when consumers are in the market, women's watches they should women's watches receive the same treatment. This is the real reason why replica Rolex watches are ladies watches ladies watches more welcome than Rolex. Because in this world are not difficult to understand that the rich are much less than people with low income, you agree with me? You are forced to nod and say with certainty that is the reality. These low-income people do not have enough money to save every month. They can not afford such luxury Rolex watches

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70 Factors Replica Watches About The Rolex replica watches Oyster The Oyster is so closely get in touch with Rolex, and it is inevitably that some people think these are the only Replica watches Rolex manufacture. Others suppose that there is a single Oyster watch. But as a matter of fact, the name Oyster does not actually meant for a rolex Watches particular watch you can buy rolex watches or even to a series but to a type of case that available in some of the Rolex ranges. History The Oyster case was first released in 1926. The objective was to protect the workings of the watch from dust and moisture. Early watches were far from waterproof. The Oyster tag heuer Watchescase was an tag heuer watches innovative design to eliminate these problems. It had a new double locking crown that screwed into place. It has been compared to the hatch on a submarine. Like a submarine, the Oyster case was waterproof. In 1927 Mercedes Gleitze swam the English breitling Watches Channel breitling watches . Before she set off she was presented with a Rolex Oyster. When she arrived, the watch was still working perfectly. The resulting publicity gave the new case a massive boost. Why is it called Oyster? Legend has it that Hans cartier Watches Wilsdorf cartier watches, who invented the Oyster, chose the name because the new case reminded him of the difficulty he had experienced prising open oysters at dinner. Since then the Oyster has further, particularly advanced. Many Oyster watches today are omega Watches perpetual-self-winding, in other omega watches words, it does not require to expose the mechanism to the outside world in order to wind it. The Osyter Perpetual is one of the toughest, most durable, most reliable watches (under truly adverse conditions). It is probably the best mechanical watch money can buy.