1 Georgia should show restraint?
Clue is clue and obama is obama and never the twain shall meet.

2

Obama agrees with McCain that Georgia's borders need to stay as they are.

The difference is that Obama omits that Russian troops have crossed Georgia's borders already. Violence just sort of happens in Obamaworld; a bit like how knifes and guns kill people without anyone identifiably wielding them at the time.

The motto for the Obama Presidency, 2009-2012, is "please don't hurt me, and I don't want to know if you hurt anyone else"

3 Now that there's a blast from the past. The Gipper is sorely missed.

4 That would be my sockpuppet above.

5  I wonder if Obama has talked to Saakashvili.

6

Typical, how Obama equates attacker with attacked:

>Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint

 

What a dick. Anyone who votes for this mook is not a serious person.

7

Google Translator:    Barack to English

Original Text:

I strongly condemn the outbreak of violence in Georgia, and urge an immediate end to armed conflict. Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full scale war. Georgia’s territorial integrity must be respected. All sides should enter into direct talks on behalf of stability in Georgia, and the United States, the United Nations Security Council, and the international community should fully support a peaceful resolution to this crisis.

Translated:

ohshitohfuckohshitohdamnohshitohfuckohshitohdamnohshitohfuckohshit ohdamnohshitohfuckohshitohdamnohshitohfuckohshitohdamnohshitoh fuckohshitohdamnohshitohfuckohshitohdamnohshitohfuckohshitohdamn

 

-

8 Additional "perspective" that Obama no doubt agrees with from Pravda: War between Russia and Georgia orchestrated from USA.

9

Setting aside culpability, Obama's statement means nothing.

'Outbreak of violence.' You might as well condemn space, wetness, or the color purple. It isn't a thing that acts, it's a condition.

Setting that aside, we unfortunately need the Russians at the moment (Afghanistan, Iran, etc.) more than they need us.

10

I can see it now:

"Mr. President, we need the codes". <thud>

"Someone get a medic in here. President Obamamessiah just beshat himself and fainted at the same time".

He is no more qualified to be POTUS than I am to do brain surgery.

11 Will ANYONE on the left condemn Russia's WAR FOR OIL???!!!???111

Like a torn rope, I'm a frayed knot...yeah, that was a really bad pun.

12 You know, I've always discouraged the use of profanity on my blog, but I simply can't get past the thought that this statement by Obama marks him indelibly as the "taint candidate"--somewhere between an asshole and a pussy, and not nearly as useful as either.

13 Yankee, I'm quoting that as often as possible.

14

When August is done, the RNC is going to put out a number of ads:

On energy - "pump up your tires" - 100% pure Carter

On Obama - "why do you ask that? racist!"

And now, on foreign aggression and, we must assume, crime - "the violence must stop" - yeah, but what about the aggressors?

Obama has lost the election already. The Dems have to know that if he keeps the nomination, the Repubs are further set to hold the line or even gain back some seats in the House. The Senate I'll grant you is going more Dem this year but not as bad as they say.

Or, they could nominate HRC and get landslide Demo results... nah, they're not that smart

15

Seriously, HRC needs to get back into Washington and be a Maverick.

She could start siding with the Republicans there to open up drilling and nuclear power. She is not Al Gore; her issue is healthcare, and energy ought to be a freeby for her.

And comments about foreign aggression would, again, be just what her Appalachian base needs to hear.

Any PUMAs out there? She needs to hear you roar

16 I'm trying to understand the reason for the fighting in Georgia. Apparently there are one or more Georgian provinces that either 1) want to be Russian rather than Georgian, or 2) are already independent; Georgia is trying to prevent/reverse this, and of course Russia is encouraging the splitting off of these provinces. And oil is a big factor.

17

Spook86 has a new post up at In From the Cold:

Various media outlets report that Moscow's Black Sea Fleet is steaming south, preparing for amphibious operations along the Georgian coast. That would open a second front for the Tbilisi's out manned military, placing a further strain on defenders.

I hadn't seen that anywhere else.

18  Jones, it's like this.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia are regions in Georgia that have tried to declare independence through violent means a few times since 1991. After the last time, Russia (and other members of the CIS) sent peacekeepers to both regions, ostensibly to prevent further violence. In reality, Russia's purpose is twofold: (1) stick a thumb in Georgia's eye; and (2) to grab as much territory for the Motherland as possible.

Georgia has been getting shelled from South Ossetia for the past few months and it escalated recently to the point where Georgia said "enough is enough." That's why Georgia tried to take the provincial capital on Friday. Russian "peacekeepers" tried to stop them and some were killed. Russia used that as an excuse to send in the tanks. And bombers.

19 Bugler, at this point I'm inclined to believe those reports about the Black Sea Fleet, but keep in mind that there is very little unbiased reporting coming out of the region and in the absence of information rumors get traded around until people believe they are true.

The rumors that Russia had mobilized its Black Sea forces started this morning, but neither the Russians nor the Georgians have mentioned them yet. I'd wait until at least one of them does.

The big issue with the Black Sea forces is that they are more likely to operate in Abkhazia or Georgia proper than South Ossetia, which indicates that if Russia is calling in the fleet, things are much, much worse than we thought.

20 Caspian Sea Pipeline.

21

Has CNN declared Georgia a 'quagmire' yet? Any 'grim milestones'?

22

The big issue with the Black Sea forces is that they are more likely to operate in Abkhazia or Georgia proper than South Ossetia, which indicates that if Russia is calling in the fleet, things are much, much worse than we thought.

Yeah, Spook86's post is entitled "Going for the Knockout."  He seems to think Russia may be going for more than South Ossetia, but he doesn't say that explicitly.

23 Nothing the US can do but talk in this situation.  If the Ossetians and Abkhazians or Cossacks or whatever they are want their own space, the Georgians are better off without them.  The Russians have been there as "peacekeepers" for awhile - WTF did the Georgians think was going to happen if they attacked in Ossetia?  To take a different example, what if the Serbians attacked NATO forces in Kosovo?  The situation is not really much different.

The Georgians thought they were buying security and freedom of action by helping US out in Iraq (although I'm sure they were well-subsidized by US tax$$$).

They were wrong - See ya, wouldn't want to be ya, Georgia!

24 You know, any democrat who is prominent, and started to support oil drilling hard... started to call the Russians what they are, and started to support the war in Iraq, could easily win a general election.

But there is no chance in hell he would win the primary.

25 OBAMA IS THE ANTICHRIST

26  To take a different example, what if the Serbians attacked NATO forces in Kosovo?  The situation is not really much different.

The situation is significantly different, as I wrote yesterday.

27 Violence just sort of happens in Obamaworld

You mean like in that community he organized?

Taint candidate says it all.

28 I expect the hoped to stop the shelling which had been coming from South Ossetia the last few months. What is it with the Left labling those who respond to artillery fire as the agressors? The pull the same shit with the Israelis.

29 Methinks I will need to re-read Revelations soon..
New Messiah(false) Check
Teh "Bear" Check
Battle with Ishmael's heirs Check

Where is the tinfoil... need to make a hat..

Catman

30 Posted by: icus at August 09, 2008 10:56 PM (I3lj0)

Typical liberal. If someone is of no use to you anymore, toss them. Moral obligation? Liberals have no idea what that concept is.

Besides, anything that might bring back the glory days of the USSR is good, right icus?

31 "Iran calls for an immediate ceasefire and urges the involved sides to exercise restraint, according to a statement by the Foreign Ministry."

Was Obama's camp given the OK to print Iran's response?

32 The situation is significantly different, as I wrote yesterday.

Why is it different?  Because you say so? 

I read what you wrote yesterday.  A mix of legalistic arguments and ignorance of facts.

Let me take a couple of examples out of your post yesterday:

Kosovo declared independence from Serbia in February and was immediately recognized by the U.S. and several other countries. (It has not been recognized by Russia or the UN, however.)

Yes, Kosovo is a US/EU client state, the way that "Ossetia" is a Russian client/irredentist Russian region.  Your point is?

Prior to that declaration, Serbia had lost all control of the region and international peacekeepers were keeping Serbia from retaking it.

Yes, NATO bombed Serbia into submission in 1999.  Oh yeah, but it was NATO and not the Russians, so it's different.

the whole of Kosovo was placed under international supervision following the wars in the late 1990s. The UN, through NATO, had ultimate administrative and military control.

Because we bombed the shit out of Serbia and occupied Kosovo.

There was no analogue to this in South Ossetia. Georgia has always been able to exert at-will military control over South Ossetia.

If that was true, looks like it's going to change, because the Georgians exerted a little too much "at will military control."

Third, Kosovar independence was achieved without military action. Actually, the fact that Kosovo was able to declare independence without going to war with Serbia is evidence of just how complete its de facto independence was.

This is so ridiculous - Kosovo is independent because NATO bombed the shit out of Serbia and occupied Kosovo, sending in troops and armored vehicles which were staged in Albania for that purpose.  How is that not "military action?"

By the way, I remember seeing McCain speak at a rally back in 2000 when he ran for president then.  He said that the bombing of Serbia had been "immoral" because the high altitude bombing caused less accuracy in identifying targets and thus more civilian deaths.  I thought that was an interesting and ballsy perspective - I wish we had that McCain back.

33  Let me take a couple of examples out of your post yesterday:

Kosovo declared independence from Serbia in February and was immediately recognized by the U.S. and several other countries. (It has not been recognized by Russia or the UN, however.)

Yes, Kosovo is a US/EU client state, the way that "Ossetia" is a Russian client/irredentist Russian region.  [I like the way you gloss over the fact that Kosovo did have all the elements of statehood--you even call it a state--but can't quite bring yourself to say the same of South Ossetia. In fact, South Ossetia cannot be characterized as a "state" at all. It has no set territory, government, or the capacity to enter into relations with other states. All three (in addition to a permanent population) are requirements for statehood. Kosovo had them, South Ossetia does not.]

Prior to that declaration, Serbia had lost all control of the region and international peacekeepers were keeping Serbia from retaking it.

Yes, NATO bombed Serbia into submission in 1999.  Oh yeah, but it was NATO and not the Russians, so it's different. [The Russians did not bomb Georgia out of South Ossetia or Abkhazia at all. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Crawl back under your rock, please.]

34 Typical liberal. If someone is of no use to you anymore, toss them. Moral obligation? Liberals have no idea what that concept is.

Besides, anything that might bring back the glory days of the USSR is good, right icus?

Has nothing to do with "liberalism."  Sometimes you have to know when to fold them.  But hey, wasn't it Nixon and Ford that left the SVN and the Montagnards high and dry in 1974-75?  And Kissinger also left the Kurds to twist in the wind in 1975?  And Reagan (prudently and belatedly) left Beirut to its own devices in 1984?

Yeah, whadda you going to do, Drew?  Send a Navy task force with a Marine amphibious brigade into the Black Sea?  Fly USAF missions into Georgia?  Give me a fucking break. 

Yeah, lets start a war with Russia over Ossetia, good idea.  Maybe having to worry about those SS-18s with their multiple 400KT warheads again will teach Americans what a real existential threat is and stop all the girlish hysteria about a few fools in Iran and Arabia. 

35 Poohbama's statement is so nuanced, and European, and UN'ish, and ineffectual, impotent, meaningless, etc. He will be the type to issue pious statements one after another, as the bear swallows its neighbor. His election will put this nation well on the road to becoming Belgium. Superpower? What superpower?

36

.But hey, wasn't it Nixon and Ford that left the SVN and the Montagnards high and dry in 1974-75? 

 

No, that would be the United States Congress, which cut off the money.

37 Foreign policy is the ONLY reason I will be supporting McCain.

38 I like the way you gloss over the fact that Kosovo did have all the elements of statehood--you even call it a state--but can't quite bring yourself to say the same of South Ossetia. In fact, South Ossetia cannot be characterized as a "state" at all.

You're making a lawyer's argument - NATO and the UN gave Kosovo all the trappings of a "state."  Anyways, who cares whether South Ossetia is a "state," or an irredentist region wishing to join with North Ossetia in Russia?  It appears that South Ossetia does not want to be part of Georgia, that's what the fight is about. 

The Russians did not bomb Georgia out of South Ossetia or Abkhazia at all. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Crawl back under your rock, please.

Why use the past tense?  What are the Russians doing NOW?  Looks like they're bombing Georgia out of South Ossetia to me. 

39 Icus, you're as much of a nekulturny propaganda tool as the various Mikhail's in the previous thread.

40 It sounds ridiculous for a junior senator fresh out of a state legislature to be telling Russia and Georgia what they should be doing.

41

icus, you ignorant slut, this isn't "over South Ossetia". It is over Georgia, Armenia, and the whole Caucasus and then, Eastern Europe.

As for Obama, <a href="http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/08/021207.php">heh</a>.

42  Gateway Pundit is quoting Al Jazeera of all people who are reporting that the airport in Tbilisi has been bombed.

43 Georgia has been calling for a cease-fire since this morning. Russia is not listening.

icus is comfortable with Russia ignoring the sovereignty of its neighbors. As if we needed more reason to believe the opposite is true...

44 icus, you ignorant slut, this isn't "over South Ossetia". It is over Georgia, Armenia, and the whole Caucasus and then, Eastern Europe.

Oh yeah, back into Prague and Warsaw.  I'm sure the Russkies are going to be marching to the Rhine and then the Channel after that, too. 

Give me a break.  Georgia's going to get punished and then this will, or should, go into the Security Council.  They will tread no more on Ossetian soil, as the Serbians no longer hold sway in their former province of Kosovo.

Funny for all the tough talk, nobody can come up with anything the US can actually do militarily.  Please let me read that for grins and giggles - tell me your mastermind moron stratergee for kicking Russian ass and backing up our gallant Georgian ally.  I'm daring you, and we know morons cannot resist a dare.

45 Can anyone get a dirty bomb into this Roki tunnel I keep hearing about? I understand that resupply is a good thing for a conquering army to have.

46 Posted by: icus at August 09, 2008 11:38 PM (I3lj0)

Listen dickhead, first of all if you really think it was Nixon and Ford who left South Vietnam to the wolves you're dumber than I thought. Who even knew that was possible?


Yeah, whadda you going to do, Drew?  Send a Navy task force with a Marine amphibious brigade into the Black Sea?  Fly USAF missions into Georgia?  Give me a fucking break.

I never said any such thing. In fact I know there's nothing we can really do. That doesn't mean I am willing to gloat that we are leaving allies to fend for themselves. You on the other hand with your flippant "See ya, wouldn't want to be ya, Georgia!" seem to be enjoying the sight of allies being crushed under the boot of a resurgent Russia.

It's rather sad that Georgian soldiers who until recently fought on our side in Iraq are dying and you feel it's a laughing matter.  Pity you couldn't trade places with one of them.

47 Funny for all the tough talk, nobody can come up with anything the US can actually do militarily.  Please let me read that for grins and giggles - tell me your mastermind moron stratergee for kicking Russian ass and backing up our gallant Georgian ally.  I'm daring you, and we know morons cannot resist a dare.

If the west does nothing as you describe (and that may be the case), then you can almost be assured that Russia will know without a doubt that the west has no honor or resolve in coming to the defense and aid of their allies.  They will then be emboldened to do far more and far worse.  Moreover, China will also take note of the same and make a move on Taiwan.  You can take that to the bank.

It is precisely the response that you are advocating that will cost democratic and free countries so much and so many lives in the long run.

48 Funny for all the tough talk, nobody can come up with anything the US can actually do militarily.  Please let me read that for grins and giggles - tell me your mastermind moron stratergee for kicking Russian ass and backing up our gallant Georgian ally.  I'm daring you, and we know morons cannot resist a dare.

Because, of course, all of us here have detailed insight into the US military's ability to launch a proper defensive action in the Caucasus, and we'd further be willing to wargame fully realistic scenarios in public. /sarc

What we do know is that Georgia has been an ally to us, and fought beside us for our causes.  By virtue of that, Russia murdering their civilians and bombing their infrastructure must not pass without reprisal.  Do I know what form it will take?  No.  Do I know we have a strong strategic interest in keeping Georgia as an ally? Yes.

Take your dares and fuck off, you preening halfwit.

49 While there's little we can do for Georgia directly, I sure as hell hope that we are providing them with any supplies they may need.

The Russians have never been shy about arming people fighting us, so I don't see why we shouldn't play by their rules.

50 I only have one thing to say to icus:

Please kindly wag your miniaturized dick someplace else, you fossilized little fucktwit.

That is all.

51 It may be time for a little aggressive lend/lease to Georgia, in the form of Stingers and Javelins.  The Russians are riding high only because their opponents are so utterly tiny in comparison, but they are still a brittle, hollow, conscript force.  Take out some tanks and IFVs, knock down a few choppers, and see how resolute they are.

52 Lil' Barry has come out boldly against the "outbreak"--it sounds like he's condemning heat rash or something.

53

Icus, you draw parallels between Kosovo and Osseita, but the main difference is that the West interviened in Kosovo to stop genocide.

Repeat, to stop genocide.

Repeat. To stop. Fucking. Genocide.

In fact, the Russians, to play off useful idiots like you, have launched propoganda in places like state owned Pravda, here I quote their propoganda:

<i>"Relating what has become common practice among war criminals, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov reported: "A Russian humanitarian convoy has come under fire. Panic is growing among the local population, and the number of refugees is increasing. There are reports of ethnic cleansing in some villages... The situation is ripe for a humanitarian catastrophe."</i>

The Russians threw that in intentionally with their other lies to play the "it's just the same as Kosovo" card, and you fell for it.

<i>"Georgia's going to get punished and then this will, or should, go into the Security Council"</i>

You Taint! Russia has veto power on the Security Council. Please don't throw the Russians into the briar patch.

And BTW, Georgia is being punished for being a fledgling democracy embracing Western (aka classically liberal) values way too much for Putin's liking.

That you enjoy this and defend this makes you something I do not have a word for. 'Unworthy' is the closest I can get.

 

54 The Russians really are waging a war for oil, and purposely targeting civilians.  Icus approves.  America is doing neither of these things in Iraq.  Icus disapproves.  Pretty much sums Icus up.

55

It sounds ridiculous for a junior senator fresh out of a state legislature to be telling Russia and Georgia what they should be doing.

To us, sure- not to Obamanation. The One can heal the earth, lower the oceans, etc.

 

#44

you spelled 'strategery' wrong.

56 There is no single word for people like Icus.  The best description of them I can give is temporary ally and eventual victim or loyal member of the American Democratic party.  Take your pick...

57 Or perhaps one could just call him a "Duranty."

58 There is no single word for people like Icus.

How about...

Useful idiot

Fellow traveler

Waste of oxygen

Piece of shit

59 "Award winning journalist" is another label often applied to people with his particular psychosis.

60 My life would be complete if at one point during the upcoming Presidential debates, McCain would just turn and look at Obama and call him a "goddamn pussy".

61 Full new, revised statement from Obama is here. As Drew says, he really is cribbing from McCain.

He correctly identifies Russia as the aggressor, just like McCain did and unlike his earlier statement.

He says that the US, EU, and NATO must send diplomats...which they've already done. How convenient. (And McCain mentioned that they'd already done it, which again makes Obama look like he's just trying to keep up with the Joneses.)

He says that an international peacekeeping force must be allowed into the region--one that excludes Russia--just like McCain did and unlike his earlier mealy-mouthed statement.

He is an empty suit. He is only playing president. Without a script he defaults to noncommittal leftist tropes: UN resolutions, no one's to blame, let's all hold hands.

62 Vote accordingly.

63 "The reaction of the Obama campaign to this crisis, so at odds with our democratic allies and yet so bizarrely in sync with Moscow, doesn't merely raise questions about Senator Obama's judgment--it answers them." Tucker Bounds

Best quote.

64 Putin's play is to take Georgia.

He's exploiting the Violence Gap. Violent men and societies are willing to deal out more violence than we in the West can respond with.

Of course that will be repeated later, with other nations. Since Europe is disarmed and has a paper military about the status of the Shriners.

I blogged about that <a href="http://whiskeys-place.blogspot.com/2008/08/russias-war-on-georgia-its-not-cold-war.html">HERE</a>.

Bottom line: Putin needs to conquer other places and keep oil at $145 a barrel or higher just to pay off his patronage network. Georgia is just a start. Other nations will be targets and will be sending money, resources to Moscow (a reverse of what happened in the Cold War). Putin may not be goose-stepping to Dunkirk, but he's got the only real military in Europe, and he is using it to make examples, and restore bit by bit the Russian Empire.

65 I'va been waiting with my shotgun, no russkies yet. Dey must be attackin another part of the state.

66 While there's little we can do for Georgia directly...

Those Russian subs have been very accident prone in the past.  I'm just saying...

67 Funny for all the tough talk, nobody can come up with anything the US can actually do militarily.

Yeah, that's funny.  You know what else might be funny?  An examination of when people like you have ever thought U.S. military intervention might be warranted. 

You know what else was funny?  The Prague Spring.  The Tianamen Square protests were also hilarious.

We didn't have military responses to those incidents, either, but I'm quite sure you would have demanded intervention in those crises, too.

68

You can tell the first statement was the real Obama by the phrase "Now is the time." So far that magical mantra has brought down the Berlin wall, stopped the rising seas and built bridges all over the place. If He says, "Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint," you can bet your bottom dollar that they will. Especially Georgia. OK, only Georgia.

69 Yeah, Purple Avenger, and a pair of Los Angeles class subs could put the entire Black Sea fleet on the bottom in 4 hours or so.

US submariners referred to the Russian surface fleet in the 80's as "a target rich environment." I doubt that's changed.

70 For Icus:
It really isn't about what the US can do militarily in this situation. It is about the reactions of the 2 candidates. McCain says it like it is: Obama pontificates in a muddle of moral equivalency. Wouldn't do to be judgmental, you know. Same mindset as after 9-11 - "what did we do to deserve this?"
He is a fool and so is anyone who would vote for him.

71 "Outbreak of violence"?

Like at a hockey game, or a British soccer meet?   

September, 1939: "German Army Outbreaks of Violence Poland"

December, 1941: "Japan Outbreaks of Violence Pearl Harbor"

72 I guess I missed that episode of  Winnie the Pooh where the Pooh bear invades Kanga and Roo land for Hunny reserves.

73 Has icus figured out what an NCO is yet?

74 To bad no one listened to Churchill and Patton and turned on the Ruskies after taking out the Germans.  We wouldn't have this problem right now. 

75 The first statement was the Obama 'generic condemnation of violence in the World' template, unedited. It could have applied to any conflict, right down to the neighborhhod kids in fisticuffs on the schoolyard.

The second is indeed after someone explained to him that is was not Georgia, the state, and found the right chapter in Cliff Notes for the 'Foreign Policy for Dummies' book for him.

76 i am not voting for no dam spider-monkey

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