1 Pennsylvania and Colorado. Yeah, boyee, that's what I'm talking about.

2

Gabe, don't know if you're being snarky or serious, but McCain has to hold Colorado, and given Obama's performance in the Pennsylvania primary, McCain may see that as a possible pickup, and a necessary one if he should lose Ohio or Virginia.  So that's two pretty good choices.  No reason to go national with this small item; McCain doesn't have the money, and the issue won't be remembered in a month.

What we are seeing is this: McCain is no Dole.  Anybody tries to one-up him on the troops, or the war, or any defense issue, he'll be in their grill.  That may work to his advantage or not, but Obama may find that he should have let this sleeping dog lie.

3 Unfortunately, McCain opposed the Webb-Hagel GI Bill, which gives Obama an easy counter.

4

"Unfortunately, McCain opposed the Webb-Hagel GI Bill, which gives Obama an easy counter."

Because he was proposing a better one.  Don't even start that stupidity, icus.  Oh, too late.

5 Because he was proposing a better one.

If by "better" you mean "less benefits to the veteran and thereby cheaper" you are accurate.

6 Way to go McCain.

7 icus - You know, you could have used your GI Bill benefits for more than finger painting classes. I was able to get a Bachelors of Science and buy a house on that "cheap" one that you so denigrate. It wasn't a handout but, rather, a hand-up.

8

Or, if by "better" you mean greater rewards for longer service, or....

So I guess it isn't an "easy counter." You've slogged through this debate multiple times, and made no headway.  You've wasted more time on it than Obama will, and to no effect.  Much as you'll try to spin this as a negative for McCain, it hasn't worked that way, and it won't.  His support among veterans is where it is, and his vote on Webb-Hagel will have no effect on that (probably the worst thing for that bill was sticking Chuck Hagel's name on it.  Dude can't pull 20% approval in his home state, and his reputation among veterans is lower still.)

If Obama thinks he'll gain votes by trying to claim that McCain doesn't care about veterans, let him go ahead.  Please.  Again, he'd be better off trying to focus peoples' attention elsewhere.

9 Master Chief, I used my Vietnam-era GI bill for all it was worth. 

The VEAP cut those benefits significantly.  I saw the decline in the quality of the troops who enlisted after VEAP passed.  The Montgomery GI Bill, while and improvement and maybe OK for peacetime service, was a disgrace in these times, when many troops have to spend 35 months out of a 48 month enlistment in Iraq, and then get called back from the IRR for another tour. 

McCain's argument against the Webb-Hagel bill was that the benefits were too good, utter BS in my opinion.

And then in the end, McCain didn't even vote in favor of his own bill or against Webb-Hagel.

10 Sigh-the position of those who "opposed" the new GI Bill is that you shouldn't make it more attractive for GIs to leave the service when you are trying to increase the size of the force.  If I wanted to use the new GI Bill (when it starts next August) I could probably get around $2K a month just for going to school, going to drill and getting a VA work study job.  That's not bad, but I'd rather have a bigger re-enlistment bonus.  Why not create a more flexible benefit that lets GIs pick and choose what kind of benefit they want?

11 icus, if you know what you're talking about, then you know that Mccain's primary consideration was that unless troops can transfer their benefits to their spouse, then the GI bill is not an incentive to stay in the military for a career.

Of course, you're trolling and know that.  whatever.

I'm a vet.  I don't like the GI Bill that Mccain opposed.  I like the one he proposed a lot better.  Giving 3 year veterans too much incentive to leave may be really really nice to them in one sense, but the primary reason to have a GI Bill is to promote the NATIONAL DEFENSE.  You can take care of the vets without gutting the military.  One good way is to make benefits transfer over to spouses.

You know, a lot of people have speculated that the dem's gi bill will gut the military of its best and brightest with no incentive to reenlist.  Those folks are right.  I hope to hell it wasn't an effort to make the US less able to fight wars and defend herself, but in the end that doesn't matter... the effects will be felt.

12 you shouldn't make it more attractive for GIs to leave the service when you are trying to increase the size of the force.

That argument was rejected by Congress.  First, if you are trying to increase the size of the force, the new GI Bill creates a powerful incentive to enlist, especially for CAT Is and IIs.  Enlistees are what you need to increase the size of the force.  Most GIs get out after their first enlistment, always have, probably always will unless you want to have 20 year privates like some armies do.

Enlistment and reenlistment bonuses are adjusted by the services on an almost monthly basis to provide incentives based on current manning.  It's not anything like the kind of veteran's benefit that the GI Bill provides.

13 icus, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't McCain oppose said bill because it offered major benefits after a single tour? Doesn't this tend to defeat the purpose of encouraging long-term service?

And -correct if I'm wrong- wouldn't most soldiers be proud of the fact that they "spend 35 months out of a 48 month enlistment in Iraq," where the fight is, instead of whining about it?

Hey, I could be wrong, I'm just going by what I read in the milblogs, by the men and women who've been in the sandbox multiple times, including at least a few Vietnam vets.

14 Icus, do you want me to type more slowly?  The new GI Bill provides a stronger incentive for soldiers who are considering leaving the service to leave than did the previous GI Bill.  Re-enlistment bonuses provide that same soldier with a stronger incentive to stay.  If you have a soldier who is conflicted about what to do, why not create a more flexible benefit that lets him choose whether he would rather have a higher re-enlistment bonus or a more generous GI Bill?  Read my previous post again, paying closer attention to the last sentence.

15 Casey, the new GI Bill does not even provide the benefits the WWII era GI Bill did.  Tuition payment is limited to the cost of in-state tuition at the state university of the veteran's home state, plus a living allowance equal to E5 BAQ.  And the WWII GI Bill was for a "single tour."  The fact is that many troops now have much more combat time than anyone got in WWII - two or three 15 month tours will do that.  And that can happen from a single enlistment of four years. 

As far as your crack about "whining,"  yes troops are proud, but they are also tired and pissed off - talk to an IRR call-up in Iraq who already did two tours on active duty and you will know anger. 

As for the milblogs you read, do you mean those written by the armchair warriors or usedtabees, or do you mean the censored ones like Colby Buzzell's was (just got his IRR callup) or LT G's  Kaboom?

16 That argument was rejected by Congress.

You mean the Congress that has lower approval ratings than the eeevvviiilll George Bush?

17 Survey question:  do you think the announcer in the McCain ad is effective?  He sounds whiney, although, maybe he's a stand-in for Obama.  I'm not sure, but I didn't like the announcer.

18 By the way, DrewM, does lying and representing that he is on the Senate Banking Committee not count as a "screw up"?  Well, maybe that's just a lie, and has no legs...

19 The new GI Bill provides a stronger incentive for soldiers who are considering leaving the service to leave than did the previous GI Bill.

Yeah, the old GI Bill sucked, the benefits had been eaten away by college cost inflation.  So what you are saying is the new GI Bill doesn't suck, and that's a bad thing? 

And again, the old GI Bill didn't provide much of an incentive to enlist.
 
I understand the argument that the gov't should put economic pressure to retain soldiers by giving them almost nothing as benefits when they get out - OK, make that argument.  I disagree.

As far as your idea to offer choices between educational benefits and higher cash enlistment bonuses, why stop there?  Why not offer a trip to Las Vegas and $5,000 in chips as a choice, too?  Why not two weeks on a cruise ship or ten meals at the Michelin three-stars of your choice?  Why wasn't any of that in the McCain or the Webb-Hagel bill?

Again, reenlistment bonuses and the GI Bill are two programs with congruent but not identical purposes.  For one thing, the WWII era GI Bill was shown to have paid for itself by the higher tax revenue collected by the veterans who earned more money because of the educations they got.  Not at all the same thing as a cash bonus.

20 Icus, you lefties go ahead and start whining about the Hagel whatever-the-fuck bill it was. Hear that sound? It's the sound of millions of swing voters tuning out due to boredom. All they are going to remember is that Obama is a blow hard that really couldn't be bothered to visit the troops. After that, no one but leftards living in their parents' basement are even paying attention any more.

So blow me, hippie jerkoff.

21

So what you are saying is the new GI Bill doesn't suck, and that's a bad thing? 

No and I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.  What I'm saying is that there are a good many soldiers who really don't have any interest in going to college, but now think that this is too good a deal to pass up.  They might otherwise stay, but now the service has provided them with a greater incentive to get out.

So what I'm saying is-make a policy that makes it more attractive to stay in-if that is what the GI would prefer-as opposed to one that gives him nothing extra to stay, but a much better deal to get out.

Address the issue icus-should the services make policies that encourage or discourage retention?  All that baloney about Vegas or cruises barely rises to the status of strawman.  Many GIs would choose a more generous reenlistment bonus over a more generous GI Bill if that option was available, but they don't have the choice and it would be a classic win-win.  If they wanted to go gambling or take a trip with that money-that's their business.

22 the new GI Bill does not even provide the benefits the WWII era GI Bill did.

the WWII era GI Bill was shown to have paid for itself by the higher tax revenue collected by the veterans who earned more money because of the educations they got.

Come on icus, cut the WWII shit. That was a benefit designed to compensate a largely drafted force that was demobilizing. We have an all volunteer force that we are trying to retain and increase in size.

If you don't see the difference between those two situations, you really have nothing useful to say.

23

Drew-exactly right. 

Hey, Congress wants to come up with more generous benefits for GIs-I'm down with that.  But I'd prefer policies that reward the desire to continue to serve over a policy that does exactly the opposite.

24 ParisParamus,

I forgot about that. Honestly though, I don't think that alone will turn anyone off Obama. This might.

25 "If you don't see the difference between those two situations, you really have nothing useful to say."

Remember introductory logic?

If p, then q. When q is true, the conditional is valid, regardless of p.

Your conditional is valid.

26 icus ignored the salient points and repeated points that wer just disingenuous.  I love how he retorts "congress has rejected that argument".  As if they are even thinking about anything beyond scoring political points.

Icus is typical of the Obama supporter.  He doesn't care at all about the real heart of a military: its NCOs.  The GI Bill needs to transfer to spouses, kids, etc.  It needs to be boosted upon reenlistment.  That first reenlistment is extremely important, and Congress is deliberately competing against the military's reenlistment efforts.

Icus knows that the Pentagon much preferred Mccain's version.   He knows it's because Mccain's version leads to a much stronger military, and is a lot more fair.  It's just not fair for a soldier who serves 3 years to get much more than someone who gives 6 or 10.  Icus is like a lot of Obama supporters, and is willing to sell our veterans out, willing to be extremely dishonest in his review of events, in order to score a couple of political points, much like his vaunted congress.

Me, I'm sick enough of Obama and his cloud of jackasses that surrounds him that I've gone from lukewarm Mccain supporter to a volunteer on his campaign.  If enough people do the same, Obama's in trouble.  GOP volunteers were the deciding factor in 2000 and 2004, and their irritation and absence decided 2006.  Take a good look at Obama and his friends.  If you like what you see, vote for him.  If not, you need to stand up for your country and help Mccain a bit.  Mccain's pissed me off many times over the years, but Icus's refusal to discuss the truth is something I've seen from lots of Obamatons over the months and it's really pushed me to fight back outside the internet's silly threads. Give it some thought.

27 Actually, the logic is if P is false, the statement is true, regardless of the value of Q.

28 CavMedic, there are lot of guys who like military life for a number of reasons, including the action, or the family life on base.  They stay in.

Most get out after their first enlistment, because they don't like the conditions of military life, for example the amount of control your superiors have over you or the time away from home.

Maybe a good GI Bill would have some impact on retention, but then there are a lot of other things which might have an impact too, like shorter and less frequent tours in Iraq. 

In any event, the initial obligation is for eight years, and they are making use of all of those eight years now with IRR callups, so how anyone can argue that the new GI Bill is too generous stuns me.

The problem with your arguments are: (1) you always have to return to arguing that a GI Bill with lower benefits will help retention (and don't address my initial enlistment argument at all, and (2) the flexible incentives you propose may or may not be a good thing, but as far as I know were not in the McCain-Reid-Graham GI Bill either.

DrewM, are you making the "fuck 'em, they volunteered" argument?  And did you miss the point that the new GI Bill is a powerful enlistment incentive?  

29 "Actually, the logic is if P is false, the statement is true, regardless of the value of Q."

So show me a way Q can be true, while the conditional is invalid,

30

No one remembers the stupid bill, maybe Vets that were paying attention.

They are already not voting for Obamallini, whats is going to stay, as mentioned by a previous poster, is this episode of gross disrespect and more, more fucking lying.

This guy is Kwaymi from detriot with a better edumacation paid for by whitey.

this has been the longest two horrible insulting years in history.

Why could the dems not jusr ran someone like Kerry or gephart.

jeeeezzzzzz, now silkipony has imploded. what amature, juvinile fuckups.

This has the ring of Muslims in the lack of a 20th centry clue.

31
P Q P -> Q
T T T
T F F
F T T
F F T

Q true -> Conditional true.

(And you're right, P false also -> conditional true, but that has nothing to do with my point.)

32 DrewM, are you making the "fuck 'em, they volunteered" argument?  And did you miss the point that the new GI Bill is a powerful enlistment incentive?

No, and you know I'm not.  I'm simply saying that when you use a system that was developed over 60 years ago in an entirely different strategic setting to buttress your argument, it shows you are either trying to score cheap debating points or are stupid.

Of course, they are not mutually exclusive concepts.

I understand you are arguing the new benefits are a powerful recruiting incentive. The problem is that, as others like CavMedic have pointed out, it also creates some powerful disincentives on the back end.

That's fairly typical liberal shit. You just talk about how nice things should be and never understand there's a cost for your choices. Here in the real world we have to balance competing goods.

As Kyle Smith put it in discussing the conservative values of The Dark Knight's Batman...

Liberals live in a world of “and.” Full security and full civil liberties. Universal health care and the best quality with no waiting. A dynamic economy and full welfare and unemployment benefits. Liberals, in other words, live in that scene in “Spider-Man” in which Spidey, forced to choose between saving a tram car full of innocent civilians and saving his girlfriend, chooses both. Liberals live in a fantasy.

Conservatives, though, live in a world of tradeoffs, of either/or. For having this relationship with reality, conservatives are caricatured as grumpy, stingy and negative. Surely all it takes is a bump in taxes on the wealthy and everything will be affordable? Where’s the Hope? Where’s the Dream? Yes, we can!

Of course none of this, including a long debate about the GI Bill, changes the fact that Obama blew off the chance to meet wounded soldiers in Germany, does it?

33 Icus-right now there is no evidence what impact the new GI Bill will have on initial enlistment.  It's just as easy for me to say that a higher bonus would encourage more first-term enlistments.  I have not made the argument that a less generous GI Bill is better for retention-that is your invention.  What I have argued is that we ought to make policy in such a way that we reward the impulse to continue to serve as opposed to one that rewards a GI for leaving the service.  McCain wants GIs to stay, which is a position I agree with.  I originally put the word opposed in quotation marks to signify that I prefered a policy (like higher reenlistment bonuses) that reward service over one that does the opposite.

34 icus, your point was that Obama's dissing wounded soldiers in Germany doesn't matter because Obama can change the subject to McCain's vote on the Webb-Hagel GI Bill. You managed to get a good discussion going here on the changed subject but the McCain campaign can just change the subject again, can't they? Who is it that will agree to the first change of subject but disagree with the second? Democrats.

What subject should the McCain campaign change to? Oh, how about Obama's flip flop on wearing an American flag lapel pin? How about Obama's votes against funding the troops? How about Obama's liberal voting record? There's lots of issues you don't want to hear more about, aren't there?

Notropis, if p -> q and not p -> q then you have reached a contradiction and thereby disproved your assertion. The conditional is false. 

35 Ace, I beg your pardon for posting off topic but I was just reading the Weekly Standard Blog and discovered that Barack and Michelle Obama don't give their children Christmas or birthday presents. This is another confirmation of the Obamas' elitism. The fact that this will appear in People magazine is another major gaff by his campaign. Which of the readers of People magazine will read this and think "the Obamas are just like us, despite their wealth and fame"?

Wait, I can spin this as on topic. icus, the McCain campaign will change the subject to Obama not giving his daughters Christmas presents when the Webb-Hagel GI Bill comes up.

Nope, sorry, I guess its still OT. But I'm banned from commenting at the Weekly Standard Blog.

36 from Time magazine 7/26/08:
"...and polls show he trails McCain by margins of as much as two to one when voters are asked who they trust more as a potential commander-in-chief..."

37

Obama has confessed that if he actually tries to accomplish anything from all of the hOpe and belief in himself, he will merely be another dilletant micromanager. He's the bastard servant who buried his talent so as not to lose it.

Obama promised in front of the press to improve the elementary school and orphanage facilities, promising his Kenyan relatives, villagers, educators and politicians. NICHTS. Not even a water pump has been donated to the school. The only improvement noted since his promises years ago? His step-grandmother has a solar powered electrical converter for her TV and lights. No running water or bathroom at gramma's house, either. And by the way, the orphanage closed the same year after his promise proved false.

So what about all of the hOpe and belief Obama spouted in Berlin for saving starving orphans in Bangladesh? As though he'll do more for them than those from his father's home town?

Change He Won't Do...he won't put up, so shut up, Obama.

Obama Dilletant '08

38

"Notropis, if p -> q and not p -> q then you have reached a contradiction and thereby disproved your assertion. The conditional is false. "

Sorry, klrtz1; you're wrong.  That's not a contradiction.  Best review your basic logic.  Seems counterintuitive, perhaps.

If I go to bed before midnight, then the sun will rise in the east.

Perfectly good conditional, even though, had I not gone to bed before midnight, the sun would still rise in the east.

No contradiction there, at all.  Only way to get a contradiction is to have p true, while q is false.

But, other than that, I agree with the rest of your post.

39 I see what you mean notropis. Clearly I shouldn't try to chop logic before my 1st cup of coffee in the morning. That's my excuse, then. Yeah, that'll do it.

On the new site your #31 truth table is all in one sentence. So there.

40

"On the new site your #31 truth table is all in one sentence. So there."

Thought it might be.  That always happens when I use Safari (on my Mac).  Clearly I shouldn't try to post stuff after my 10th beer ;-)

41 The retention argument is a red herring, imo.   Everyone signs up for eight years, usually for three or four active (at least 4 in the USMC, USAF and Navy) -- that first enlistment is the more important than any reenlistments.  This is because the military is a pyramidal hierarchy that depends on having a lot of troops in grades E1-E4, and progressively less in the grades above.  It's more important to get quality people to enlist in the first place, which the new bill will help with.

If you make the military an attractive or at least bearable profession, many will stay.   Having at least a year between tours in combat zones is a lot more important than whether the new GI bill is "too good."

As far as the either/or proposition, the new GI Bill ended up having both the higher benefits of the Webb Hagel version and the family transferabiliy benefits of the McCain Reid version.  It was a win/win proposition.

42 "This is obviously an issue right in McCain's wheelhouse and he's not going to let it go." As this game started the Big O had more than twice the chips that McGetOffMyLawn had- & since then McSurge has lost a big chunk of that on "Its Working & He Won't Admit It"- & on this particular hand McCheese is facing an opponent with at least two pair in hand & for reasons best explained by words like "desperation" & disconnect" & "panic" has decided to throw in another big chunk on the outside hope that it will suddenly occur to Irving Independent of Muncie that "He's not just a Muslim- he doesn't Support The Troops!" & go into a highly contagious form of the conniption fits- -sort of like looking for the one card that draws into a bottom end insider straight.- - - Here's the facts Tools: The troops over in Iraq fell all over themselves in worshipping at the feet of the Big O- He gets goaded into trying a 30 footer & BOOM! Count it!- There are- get this- NUMEROUS news stories- complete with digitally recorded TV camera footage- about the Big O going to visit wounded vets: at Walter Reed- & at points all along the Dem primary campaign trail.- - Plus this pass-on-Afghan story- as I pointed out two days ago here might well be the case- turns out to have been a total set up organized by the Bush DoD- on request from McGuess Who? - - However the main problem with Bush & McWorse is that its pretty much a case of Dumb putting his head together with Dumber: the Bushies & the morons at the DoD who brought us 1001 Bought & Paid For Military TV Talking Headcases were too dumb to bother checking out the possibility that the Big O saw this one coming at LONG time ago- & the McCampaign is so dumb it actually assumed the Bushies would have checked all this out in advance. So thats what...two plus mill down the McToilet? Meanwhile Senator Obama's Big Tour O'Bounce is showing up in the Gallup Daily Tracking Poll: As of today its up to 9 points- notwithstanding the Gallup folks publish 3 day blends- meaning since Thursday's hun of a reception in Berlin [Do you really think McFudd has 200,000 people interested enough in him in the entire world to bother to go see him speak?] wouldn't even show up in the consciousness of the average semi-retarded American poll respondent for two days- only one of the 3 components of this minibounce had anything to do with to the Barry O tour- & also means that the other two thirds came from when McFighter was shadow boxing- & still had to get up off the canvas 3 times from the effect of his own blowing- and sucking [Did I mention the sucking yet?]- - Here's the good news: since Liberals & Progressive & Democrats are getting so pumped up about taking over the White House & adding a working majority in the Senate to a larger majority in the House now they are going to need a lot more bandwidth to spread the Gospel of St Barry- so how about converting this circle jerk site to the Hope side before it gets netted & neutered?

43

I do not know if this is true, but I also have reports from Soldiers in Iraq that when Obama visited the area, several times he walked past lines of Soldiers without taking the time to shake one hand.  I doubt he earned many military votes on this tour, but most of Germany is planning to vote for him...

George

http://5banzai.blogspot.com/

44 Diderot's dog allow me to retort....


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45 9/ " I saw the decline in the quality of the troops who enlisted after VEAP passed. "

Hey!

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