1 Was A Clockwork Orange some kind of training manual for current Britain?

2 Just for the record, based on my mother's American birth I should like to claim American citizenship and hence forth be known as an American not a Briton.

Also for the record, had I been there I'd have ripped the beating hearts from those punks with my hands and then fed them to the little bastards.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to get back to spinning in my grave.

3 Those delightful little pricks shall inherit precisely the future they so well deserve.

4

As a frequent viewer of the SciFi channel, and a huge fan of dystopian fiction, you have to admit it is curious to see.

One wonders how far it can go.

5

The daughter of a Second World War RAF pilot who reprimanded a teenager who she accused of vandalising a war memorial has been convicted of assault.

Julie Lake, 50, believed the 15-year-old was one of a number of youths who had damaged the remembrance garden in her village dedicated to those killed fighting for Britain.

But Mrs Lake was arrested after giving a boy, whom she believed to be the ringleader, a talking-to and a ‘cuff round the ear’.

She tackled him after she saw at least one youth riding a BMX bike through freshly-laid flower beds.

Ace, Way to bury the lede. The fifty year old woman *tackled* a teenaged BMX riding ring leader, gave him a talking-to and cuffed him around the ear.

 How fucking cool is that?

…Mrs Lake claimed she was performing a ‘moral obligation’ following months of anti-social behaviour and vandalism at the memorial. But weeks later she was arrested and yesterday was convicted of assault, criminal damage and a public order offence at North Avon Magistrates Court in Yate, near Bristol.

She was found guilty of criminal damage for angrily throwing a bicycle belonging to one of the youths into the road…

The judge rejected her claim that she was trying to perform a citizen’s arrest and ordered her to pay £400 towards costs.

He said: ‘I’m sure that having seen the damage to the flower beds, you simply lost your temper. I can understand you lost it, particularly because of your family relations in the war, and it is hardly surprising that you did. You reacted spontaneously, without thought for the consequences. You confronted the child with no plan in mind. The throwing of a bike into the road shows a complete loss of self-control, not the actions of someone executing a citizen’s arrest.’

Sounds reasonable - once all the facts are in.

Hell, where do I sign up?

I'd gladly pay $500-600 in court costs if I can tackle teenaged BMX riding asshats, cuff them around the ears, *and* throw their bikes into the street.

-

6

effing non-working blockquote thingies. 

Sure,  they work while you're typing the comment, but once you post -  *poof* they disappear.

-

Mrs. Lake tackled the rider, cuffed him on the ear, gave hima  talking-to, and threw a bike into a street for being a stone jackass.

Back in the day, we used to call such women "Mom"

-

7 The welfare state is great at creating feral children

8 Yep. A Clockwork Orange was the first thing that came to my mind, too.

Britain falls further and further into the abyss and probably presages our own destiny, global testing and all.

9 This, by the way, is nothing new. There's a C.S. Lewis essay in his book God in the Dock where he bemoans the increasing vandalism from one 'yoot' in particular that everyone knew about, how the mush-brained lady judge kept letting him off, and how hard she would come down on Lewis if he thrashed the punk himself.

And this was written in the 1940s or 50s, so you know England has been fucked up for a long time.

10 God bless her--she's a heroine.  That really took some courage.

11 There WON'T always be an England.

She's in her last days.

12 If the police do not do their job the public will. They are there for a reason.
The problem always boils down to one thing passion. Don't let it get the best of you. If a youth is riding over your flowers explain to the youth that it needs to stop.
If it doesn't remind him that people get run over too, happens every day.
People get beat down in alleys walking home too, happens all the time.
Especially in places where the police don't do anything to stop crime.

13 A bit tangential here, but I often hear about how the government must have a monopoly on the use of force. However, isn't the whole idea behind the second amendment just the opposite, that the government cannot and must not have such a monopoly, or it will surely in time become a tyranny?

14 A legitimate government has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, barring self defense (and defense of property, castle doctrine, etc). You're not allowed to enforce a contract with a 12-gauge.

If the government ever becomes illegitimate, we can start shooting at it.

15 Is there a fund where we can send this woman, a credit to Albion, some money to help relieve the burden of her fine?

16 This reminds me of a story.

My uncle worked as a mule trail guide in the Grand Canyon in the 60s and interrupted some Aussie carving his initials into a petrified canoe. My uncle got pissed off of course and left him stranded in the bottom of the canyon. Later that night my uncle saw the guy at the local bar, befriended him and proceeded to get the guy drunk. Being a nice fellow, my uncle offered to drive the Aussie home where, after the guy passed out, my uncle carved his initial in the guys ass.

Well, he didn't appreciate that one bit and had my uncle arrested. My uncle told the judge what happened and professed his guilt in court. He was fined $100 and released. After sentencing my uncle the judge asked the sheriff to arrest the Aussie and he was soon charged with defacing a national monument (or something) and fined $5000.

Justice was served.

17

effing non-working blockquote thingies.

Hmm...work for me. ;-)

18

bgates -

I see your point, I guess the 2A allows us to have the means of revolt ready to hand should the legitimacy of the government go away, but not a right to supplant the govenment as we see fit.

"You're not allowed to enforce a contract with a 12-gauge."

Guess I better go apologize to the mechanic that worked on my truck.

19 It's all very well and good for a government to have a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, but only if they are everywhere, simultaneously, to dispense it.  Othewise, they should accept that individuals in the society will use their own judgement.

Option A:  Bobbies on every street corner and citizens taxed nigh unto death to pay for it.

Option B: Government support of a citizen in good standing (I am assuming) dispensing force to prevent damage to emotionally and physically valuable public property.

Too bad the british appear to be a bunch of damn idiots.

20 Sad, sad and truly a disgusting tale. I hope one day the little bastard wanders into Finsbury Park and pisses off the locals. I'd like to see him get out of that one. Karma would be the woman standing there armed to the teeth and then calmly walking away.....

21

Wonder how the little dears would fare at Rolling Thunder?

Now there is a student exchange program I'd get behind.

22

If you read the article, it's pretty clear that the woman was guilty of assault (albeit with provocation). Yet in the U.S. I doubt she would even had been prosecuted much less convicted - one of the side benefits of having elected prosecutors and trials by jury. Britain's current justice system seems perverse in that it's keen to prosecute people who don't pose a threat to society while criminals seem to just get a handslap. So I guess it's really two justice systems - one for normal people and one for yobs.

I agree that the state should have a monopoly on the use of violence (with the caveat that individual self defense is allowed), but there are also obligations that come along with this monopoly - namely that the state is willing and able to use force to enforce the laws. So if the state will not or cannot enforce the law, then it also should not punish those who do so on their own.

23

If the police do not do their job the public will.

That is why the job of british police - one they do well - is making sure no one does that particular job.

That's the reason why they crack down insanely hard on any attempt at self defense, in cases like this, and the other week when the 60 year old was charged for wielding a baseball bat when kids were throwing rocks at his house for 2 hours while he waited for the cops.

Because the cops won't enforce justice, they have to crack down extra hard on the people to make sure they don't try to start.

24

A legitimate government has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, barring self defense (and defense of property, castle doctrine, etc).

So in other words : No, no the government does not have a monopoly on the use of force. Least not unless you're hot on using the phrase so you state it tentatively with exceptions and exemptions for practically all the important parts

You're not allowed to enforce a contract with a 12-gauge.

No...uh, neither is the government either....

No one's ever shot escaping down an alley after resisting arrest over breach of contract...

25

I agree that the state should have a monopoly on the use of violence (with the caveat that individual self defense is allowed),

Seriously what are you people talking about?

'I agree the xxx should be the only one to yyy (except for those times when they aren't)'

Even penalties for crimes - executions and detention - is only in the government's power when they've been given a conviction by a jury of the dudes randomly selected peers. So even that power is shared between the people and the government.

As for Castle Doctrine being the big exception - well my point is when the hell ELSE does the government use force? That's pretty much "any legitimate use of force" the government does not have a monopoly on. Everythise else they should have a monopoly on? Well that leaves...illegitimate use for force...

Like the government should be the only ones allowed to rough up old ladies for staring at them funny or what?

I guess, all I can think of, is you guys are against those laws that allow citizens to shoot people in the commision of a felony or certain crimes (against others - not yourself - like if you see someone trying to rape someone else you don't know). Like they have in Texas and such places.

Those are good laws.

So if I see someone knocking over a 7-11, you're opposed to me going in there and beating the guy to the floor? If I see kids vandalizing a war memorial, you're opposed to me grabbing him by the jacket and holding him there till the cops get there to pick him up?

You might say 'well, I'm opposed to you beating him into a coma for vandalism'.

Yes. Yes. You're opposed to cops doing that too. Once again, that's not a "government's job" issue so much as an "inappropriate / excessive / illegitimate use of force" issue. That would be called police brutality...

Outside of like...war, and some issues surrounding/during war ... I dunno what you guys are talking about. Yeah .... the government does and should have a monopoly on the ability to declare war on other nations...

26

I guess, all I can think of, is you guys are against those laws that allow citizens to shoot people in the commision of a felony or certain crimes (against others - not yourself - like if you see someone trying to rape someone else you don't know). Like they have in Texas and such places.

Please think harder. We're not crypto-police staters here.

Remember that use of violence is not the same thing as lethal force. By and large I can't just pepperspray people, handcuff them and put them in a locked room if they don't do what I say^*, while an agent of the state can.

* with the obvious exceptions of hobos and naughty coeds

27

Remember that use of violence is not the same thing as lethal force. By and large I can't just pepperspray people, handcuff them and put them in a locked room if they don't do what I say^*, while an agent of the state can.

No, they can't.

Seriously...WTF? No they can't.

A cop can't just walk up to you and be like "Hey, take your hat off" in the middle of a public sidewalk, and if you say "Um no", pepperspray your ass, handcuff you, and lock you up and charge with you "not doin wut I sed".

My point is 2 fold:

1) The government does not (and must never) have a monopoly on violence. Read the 2nd ammendment. That is not an idea you want to get comfortable with. The moment you're OK with thinking they have a monopoly (but 1 or two exceptions) they have a monopoly - and they will surely take your exceptions away and you will be Britian.

2) LOFL! Words do not mean nothing. Saying they should/do have a monopoly (except for these huge things) is like saying "everyone on this blog is a guy (except for the 35% who are women)".

Take that logic into court. I'll pay to see it, $50 for your legal fund heh. Just tape record it.

"McDonalds has a monopoly on fast food (except for Burger King, Taco Bell, Wendies, White Castle, Dairy Queen, A&W, In-and-Out, various mom & pop outfits....). But other then that, a monopoly. I mean if you don't want any of those other things that aren't McDonalds, then out of what's left, McDonalds clearly has an illegal monopoly."

Seriously though don't mind me. Except for that part (everything), other then that little part, other then that, I agree with everything you said. So no argument.

28 I don't see what the big deal is. They're just exercizing their right to free expression.

(And by "expression", I mean "breaking shit", and by "free" I mean "somebody else pays".)

29

Remember that use of violence is not the same thing as lethal force. By and large I can't just pepperspray people, handcuff them and put them in a locked room if they don't do what I say^*, while an agent of the state can.

No, they can't.

Seriously...WTF? No they can't.

The assumption here is that it's a lawful order - say for disturbing the peace by screaming at people in a park. In this circumstance I still couldn't legally do all of the above to the screamer. Must I spell out every detail explicitly for you?

 The government does not (and must never) have a monopoly on violence. Read the 2nd ammendment. That is not an idea you want to get comfortable with.

Please re-read the 2nd amendment - it says you have the right to own and use firearms - it does not say you can legally use your firearms any way you want to or legally attack the government (as the CSA found out the hard way).

Words do not mean nothing. Saying they should/do have a monopoly (except for these huge things) is like saying "everyone on this blog is a guy (except for the 35% who are women)".

Monopoly does not mean exclusive - IBM and Microsoft were monopolies in certain markets even though competitors did exist. The state can and does use force legally frequently and commonly (after all people do get arrested every day), while individuals can only legally use force in very specific circumstances and places.

30

The assumption here is that it's a lawful order - say for disturbing the peace by screaming at people in a park. In this circumstance I still couldn't legally do all of the above to the screamer. Must I spell out every detail explicitly for you?

Yes... the assumption is the cop is issuing a lawful order /use of power....and apparently the assumption is I'm not.

It's all in the assumptions. The way the wording must be interpreted. A cop can detain you if you 'don't do what he tells you'.

So can I.

If I tell you to leave my property, and you don't, I can taze your ass and call the cops and have them detain you for me. Cuz when you wouldn't leave, I felt threatened by you. And I can detain you until they get here.

Again, key point:

Cops do not have a monopoly on the use of force.

it does not say you can legally use your firearms any way you want to

So?

The Government does not have a monopoly on the use of force. "I can't do just anything I want" does not equal "goverment has monopoly".

No, I can't do 'whatever I want'. Neither can agents of the government...and even if either of us could, that still does not a monopoly make. Not being able to do 'whatever you want' is not the same as not being able to do 'anything at all'.

Specifically though, I refer to the part where it says "A well regulated milita, being neccessary to the security of a free state". The founders knew, as someone stated above, that when the government has a monopoly on the use of force it becomes tyranny. The 2nd ammendment is so you can keep guns AND use them. Not keep them and NOT use them, like have replicas and antiques.

Yes, use them legally. No, not use them 'any way you want'. I don't know what that has to do with anything...

I mean...I dunno man. We've gone to "Burger King cannot sell WHATEVER it wants, therefor, McDonalds has a monopoly". Apparently Burger King wants to sell methamphetamines, and McDonalds also cannot sell whatever it wants, but somehow that's a monopoly.

31

The state can and does use force legally frequently and commonly (after all people do get arrested every day), while individuals can only legally use force in very specific circumstances and places.

The people are allowed to use force as often as the government is.

Any time a crime is committed is when the state uses force. Which is every day.

And every time a crime is committed there was a victim that had a legal opportunity to use force as well. Just because they do not take advantage of it (or perhaps they are dead) does not change the fact that they're authorized just as often as the cops are. Before the cop is allowed to use force to arrest you for a crime, you had to commit one. And in the commission of the crime, I was allowed to use force to stop you.

OK, so you can't claim self defense against white collar crime like embezzeling. But you can lawfully detain people for such things anyway. You get private security companies usually doing it - they're private. You can hold people for those things.

32 I guess it all depends on how you define "all the time" and "very specific times" since they both, apparently can (and right now, are) describing the same thing simultaneously.

33
matenloch:   Please re-read the 2nd amendment - it says you have the right to own and use firearms - it does not say you can legally use your firearms any way you want to or legally attack the government (as the CSA found out the hard way).

The real reason for the 2nd amendment, from the Declaration of Independence

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

34 Maetenloch, the fact that the Confederate States of America lost the resulting war did not mean their argument was legally invalid.

We'll do better next time.

35 Oh, and before I forget the original point. Every time the British do something stupid as a nation, I think of the "good" Brits I've known on deployments. Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, 1 Black Watch, 2 Para, 1 Royal Irish Rangers, Royal Marines EOD, Grenadier Guards, etc. They're enough to make me believe maybe all's not lost for the mother country. Too bad they're not enough of them to make a difference if their country decides to shit the bed and become Londonistan.

There was a Brit joining the US Army when I was at Benning in '99. Regular old American kids were wetting the bed on purpose, claiming to be gay, and coming up with every other bullshit way they could to get out. This guy had a heart murmur and they were trying to send him home, and he was wanting to stay. High school track guy, used to race drill sergeants for fun. Made me proud of our British allies again. No idea whatever became of him, but I wish him well.

36

There was a Brit joining the US Army when I was at Benning in '99. Regular old American kids were wetting the bed on purpose, claiming to be gay, and coming up with every other bullshit way they could to get out.

Get out of what?

It's an all volunteer force....

hehehehe...I volunteer! No wait, I'm gay! Wait, no...Let's roll! Hrm....I AM CORNHOLIO GIVE ME YOUR SECTION 8s!

37 Re: the state's "monopoly" on force - from Ace's original post:

The state is required, pretty much, to insist that only it can dispense justice, and has to put people through the ringer for taking the law into their own hands even when everyone on the planet Earth knows that person did the right thing.

At least one of us is reading Ace wrong here. I took this statement not as an argument that the only the state can dispense justice, but rather as an observation that the state, even if it doesn't officially have such a monopoly, nonetheless has an overriding motivation to act as though it does. Namely, to discourage the Little People^TM from employing violence willy-nilly as a routine response to crimes in progress.

If you run the risk (however small) of being sent to prison even over, say, a clear case of self-defense, that won't deter most people from using violence in self-defense if they need to, but it will probably deter most folks from using violence in less dire circumstances, where the risk of prison time is greater. That's the effect that states typically want to achieve, especially nanny-states like Britain's whose aim is to be seen as indispensable for all of life's necessities, including security, and the absolute power over their subjects that such a monopoly implies. But as Entropy alluded to above (#23), if the Little People^TM are capable of using violence to protect themselves while the state can't/won't, then the state doesn't look so indispensable anymore, now does it?

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39 Entropy, you'd be amazed how many people want to un-volunteer after a couple days. My platoon of the entry-level infantry class picked up with 50 people on 14 January 99 and graduated 26 new 11B's in May. The others were all washed out and seperated from the service. Admittedly that was long before the war so the standards were higher.

40

 Namely, to discourage the Little People^TM from employing violence willy-nilly as a routine response to crimes in progress.

Well, I disagree (depending on what you mean by "willy-nilly").

If 'willy-nilly' means I take a chainsaw to jaywalkers, yeah, that's to be discouraged.

But as a routine response to crimes in progress? If you see someone trying to snatch an old ladies purse, do you, as a routine response to this sight, kick him? Sure. If he runs off with the purse, tackle him? Hell yeah.

There's no good reason for the state to try to discourage that. They should encourage it. It's good stuff. That mentality, of enforcing the social compact and looking out for yourself and for each other, is the difference between places with high crime rates and low crime rates.

That's the effect that states typically want to achieve, especially nanny-states like Britain's

Well no disagreement. 'Should do' and 'want to'  being seperate things and all...

41 "That is why the job of british police - one they do well - is making sure no one does that particular job."

As this forum shows:

http://www.policespecials.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t74048.html

Admittedly, they are police-wannabes (not sure if the 'Special Constable' position directly translates to anything in the US..?), rather than actual police, but no doubt there are plenty of them that feel the same way.

42 I'm beginning to think that my "Save Europe from itself?--Never again." position needs a rethink. We should offer one way tickets to the eventual survivors and tatoo a cross on their foreheads.

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